Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Healing&Hopeful on January 10, 2006, 10:42:14 AM
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I was reading through some stuff from bio dad and I thought I'd share this with you.... it's how to teach your daughter about relationships and make sure she never mentions anything of past relationships to the other party.... Now I have read up what I have read about N's, this is quite an insight! Also I haven't cut out any of it.... You have to smile, don't you :lol:
As you have said, we often have to make many choices, and it can be very difficult to make the correct choice. In fact it is fair to say we will not always make the correct choice, and will be wrong some of the time.
There are 2 places in the bible, which are specifics, leave us with only one choice. However it is wrong to try to explain, or understand without knowing the whole story, so to speak. This is called taking things out of context. So until you have read and try to understand all of the bible (this takes years, maybe more than a lifetime) you will never understand properly. This is why we have 'faith' i.e. taking things on trust, without fully understanding the reason, or reasons behind them.
I believe the bible to be a guide as to how we should live our lives. We don't need to know WHY we need to do this, although it does help us understand.
In this 'guide to life' you will find the 10 commandments. There are people today who say these don't apply. This is becasue the devil is in charge, and wants you to live against God's teachings.
Read Exodous chapter 20.
http://www.audio-bible.com/bible/bible.html
http://www.audio-bible.com/bible/exodus_20.html
And 1 Corinthians chapter 6 verses 9 and 10 in particular. To try not to take these out of context, this is where a deciple (I forget which one) is telling the people how they should live. It is very clear, and leaves little room for confusion.
http://www.audio-bible.com/bible/1_corinthians_6.html
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This is how I see it, so it could be argued it is my 'opinon' although I see it as just correctly interpreting the facts.
This is really about life, much of it relates to our relationships, and feeling for people...especially people of the opposite sex. I don't know, or profess to know what life is. I do know we (humans) have a 'magic' ingredient. We think; we reason. We are the only life (as far as we know) to do this.
This 'life' comes from a man and woman having sex. (Don't complicate the issue with artificial inscemination etc) To continue life, this 'sex drive' is very powerful, the most powerful urge we have. It is an irritional urge, as it means intense pain for the woman, and years of hard labour caring for his family for the man.
So why is it important for the man and woman to stay together to bring up their children?
The birth of an animal, no matter what species, or the means of it's conception obeys the laws of this universe. It is made up of atoms, and the DNA forms the map the atoms follow, to make the being/creature.
From being born, animals learn the skills for life. This is different for every animal, and often different for each indivual animal of each species. The best teachers are their natural parents. This is because usually ( I think) the majority of the genes come from these 2 animals.
So the best teachers, the ones who understand you the best, are your natural mother and father.
This is why divorce is wrong (in most cases). When you decide (yes, your own decision) that you have found someone who will make an acceptable, and suitable 'mate' (this is what we do when we see someone we like) it is important that when you give in to your sexual urges (the reason for self control) it is with the person you are prepared to spend the rest of your life with. Because any offspring will need the skill, and knowledge of their natural parents to give them the best chance of success.
So to say you have a choice to either make a go of it, or leave is wrong. You should say, if I decide to go with this person I will do whatever it takes to make it work, and the only way I will leave is when one of us dies. This is the reason for marriage, and the marriage vows. Just because it is popular opinion, or the view of society, to do otherwise is wrong. There are exceptions, nothing is that simple, but that should always be the objective of everyone.
I have always thought this, and can only be held accountable for my own actions, not the actions of others.
I did make a mistake having a relationship with ????. I was in need of a friend, and I do miss human contact (mainly hugs) but do not really miss having sex. This left me in a vulnerable position, able to make mistakes easily. As I have already told you, I do believe I would find my 'soulmate' and after doing so, and 'making love' as opposed to having sex, means there is absolutely no point in sex with anyone else.
I could go on for hours, but must stop now. You have plenty to think about anyway.
My Reply:-
I can't listen to these here because I'm at work, but have e-mailed them home so will listen to them at home.
Some choices are more important than other... Obviously my choice to marry future H is very important as is his to marry me. We have also researched a fair amount of information so we hopefully don't become a statistic. But this has come from both of us, we are both jointly responsible and involved.
You are right that it takes hard work but I do feel your views are idealistic and unfortunately, for whatever reasons which are beyond our control, we don't live in an idealistic world. It is therefore more realistic for us to say "What do we want to achieve out of our marriage?" And what will we do to accept and overcome changes which will happen?" If both parties are open and flexible the marriage has quite a good chance, yet if one party is unbending and it's either their way or the highway it is difficult to achieve the desired result which is to have a long and happy marriage.
Let's look at your relationship with Mum even. You met and married, but were you happy? I know she wasn't so you are saying that it is better to stay unhappily married with someone you don't really love who says you are supposed to accept what they say and their ideas forever. And from what I understand you were violent to her once also and slapped her. I'm not saying she is not to blame but you were both mutually responsible for the breakdown but neither of you is right or wrong.
Supposing you and Mum had stayed married, it is probable I would have been very different but this would have been due to seeing mum be very unhappy, and therefore I would have probably gone on to form unhappy relationships myself.
This is why I feel your view is unrealistic and idealistic...
I agree with most of what you say, and I agree the choices are mine. The confusion came because, using common sense the correct choice is obvious, and so become no choice at all. So yes, you have won that argument.
I will not discuss the relationship to your mother, simply because it is in the past, and there is no changing it. I disagree that we were equally to blame, although of course I take responsibility for some of the blame. Mainly I did not listen to people (some friends etc) who said I was wrong to marry her. They could see things better than I could.
And from what I understand you were violent to her once also and slapped her. I will just explain this. I was never violent to her as such, but if I remember correctly, I was trying to get her to answer a question, with either yes or no. She refused point blank, keeping silent, so to get her to talk I poked her with my fist, but because I was so angry I did it too hard. This was while I was lying in bed alongside her and was sideways.
Please do not talk to her about our relationship, as this is in the past and will do no good whatsoever. I can't stress this enough.
Yes my views are idealistic, but just because others do things wrongly is no reason for me not to try to do them properly. As to being happy, or unhapply, well that is down to both people. There will be periods of unhappiness in all marriages, and again it is down to both people to take every means possible to solve the problem, and so make the marriage happy again.
A very simple and silly example. Suppose I don't like potatoes (any food) but I say I do to please you (my wife). You give me potatoes to eat everyday, so I am unhappy as I don't like them. That is my fault, and I should live with it, not get someone else who does not give me potatoes.
Remember happiness is simply a state of mind, and can easily be changed. Your choice to be happy or not is often entirely up to you. Of course if you are a prisoner, and being tortured you will be unhappy. This again is common sense.
So just to sum up (and please don't get angry if this is not accurate, or you think it wrong) you get angry and frustrated with me, and think that is because I have clinical depression, and will do nothing about it. I think you now know this is not the case, and I genuinely cannot work, because of a combination of small things, not one large one. The degenerative disc limits the kind of work I can do, most of which I am not qualified for, or have any experience.
So you need to be looking for other causes for your feelings. Some of this may be down to the fact of you being my daughter, and my father had almost exactly the same feelings for me. This is what I mean when I say you take after him. Linda said when I entered the room, he changed from a nice person to something else. It was inexplicable.
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So you need to be looking for other causes for your feelings. Some of this may be down to the fact of you being my daughter, and my father had almost exactly the same feelings for me. This is what I mean when I say you take after him.
Honey, this guy is dangerous....to my mental health, let alone yours! This is how I feel reading his tripe... :o :shock: :? :x :evil: :roll: but for you :(
this stuff above....so he's saying:
Your feelings are caused by YOU being his daughter. It's your fault for being his daughter. Like it was his Dad's fault for being his Dad.
Your father of course is not responsible for influencing or affecting anyone. Sheeeeeeeesh.
He's not living in what some would call reality. And he crosses so many boundaries in his communication with you. The sex stuff is unforgivable. Emotional incest.
Is he still writing to you in these terms?
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Hiya hon
He's not but only because I cut contact with him.... This is just some of what he said to me over email before I found out about Narcissism.
Don't you just love your parents? (Irony)
I've not really met anyone that understands about it... but it does help to share it where someone is not telling me to that I only have one dad and it's a shame we're not in touch.
H&H xx
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I only have one dad and it's a shame we're not in touch
People will say this over and over. Some people might say it with real empathy, waiting for you to say "yeah, I feel sad about it but that's the way it is". But so few people it seems (?) are in tune with what goes on.
It is a shame of course, it is sad. You have every right to feel angry and sad about it. But relationships take at least two and he's incapable of a real relationship. That's why he's happier with an animal than with other humans. Yes it's sad. But you can't help that. Ditto me, I'm writing to myself as usual.
((((((H&H))))))
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Hello H&H,
Holy Schmoly. "I poked her too hard"? "I was wrong to marry your mother...we should stay married...never mind the affair I had..." Whatever!!
The shame is not in not staying in touch with a crazy man. The shame is that your lot in life was to be born to a crazy man. It is not your fault. It just is.
If there is a lesson, perhaps it is just to accept him for who he is. By 'accept' I mean, we can accept the fact of who he is and go from there. one cannot change him, one cannot have a relationship, one can choose to move on to more lifegiving people. And that's OK.
I am sorry to read how he is/was messing with your head this way. Ick. :? MP
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I think when I first got it, all I thought was NO. No, that's not how it works, no that's not how it is.... but then I was looking at it rationally.
Did it make my head spin? Yes, and it still does to some extent.
There is quite a lot of boundary hopping... the most disturbing one for me was the silly example... I don't like potatoes but said I do to please you (my wife)!!!! I can't really describe how that makes me feel, but it's not nice.
His dad possibly did change when he entered the room.... however it's not inexplicable, it was his dad's reaction to him! Just the same as it's my reaction to him. He doesn't get it because there is something missing.... like a jigsaw puzzle with a piece missing.
I should have probably been warned by one of the first lines:-
This is how I see it, so it could be argued it is my 'opinon' although I see it as just correctly interpreting the facts
I feel this is n-ism at it's best. I see it right because I've correctly interpretated the facts, however it could be argued as my opinion! Hmmmmm
And it brings to light another thing re: the icky hugs.... he misses hugs, not me. He only hugged me for his own gain.
I'm not sure if I accept him or not MP. I am well aware he's not going to change and I'm aware that there's definitely something wrong with him. Does that mean I've accepted him? Or just accepted that he's not going to change and the problem is him? If I haven't accepted him and still need to, what are the implications for me? This might sound strange but what does it say about me to have a dad who's unable to have a relationship and that I don't contact?
H&Hxx
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what does it say about me to have a dad who's unable to have a relationship and that I don't contact?
It just says that, hon.
Doesn't say anything about you at all.
Just the sad fact that he can't have a relationship (which is why you don't contact).
I'm pretty stunned by the ways he has used and sexualized you. I think accepting his attention and letting him own so much of your mental space (whether you contact or not) is hard...
Is it because attention from him was appealing because he wasn't doing what your mom did? (Do I remember right that it was only she who was physically abusive, and he was--IS--emotionally abusive?) I can certainly understand that if so, because it is a natural yearning, to have love from parents. Any parent. You certainly got cheated.
Hugs,
Hopalong
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Hiya Hoppy
Yes, as you can probably tell from here, he is still occupying a lot of my mental space.
When I initially got into this, I hardly knew him... saw him about 3 times a year and 2 of them were birthday's and christmas. His birthday obviously, not mine. Because of getting married and having divorced parents, I split the roles out..... stepdad walk me down the isle and for him to do the speech. All I was trying to do was be as fair as possible in the circumstances, but also fair to me. Because he initially agreed to do the speech, I also thought the least I could do was make more of an effort and try and get to know him better.... and boy did I do that!
All this because I wanted something from my parents for one day!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Yes you are right that Mum was physically abusive, and although she was controlling, compared to this it was a walk in the park. I do think he's got worse over time though. I guess you are right though because I was after some attention, but also some answers... I'd got to a stage in my life where it was time to get answers. I have more answers now than I had a year ago, that's for sure.
When I used to see him 2/3 times a year, I hardly ever used to think about him... we'd only speak about 5/6 times a year too and it was an hour of my time listening to him rabbit on about his boat, his this, his that. BUT I hardly ever thought about him.... now I wonder if I'll ever get to the point where I don't have contact, and hardly ever think about him? Sometimes maybe we are best off not knowing.
H&H xx
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(((H & H))))
You are working it all through as fast as you can. This is deep stuff.
I know I've had to revisit and struggle with my mother issues for years and years...only lately have I begun to feel there's no unfinished business. (With her it can't be finished, but I mean unfinished business ABOUT her within myself. Boy, have I made a lot of--mostly good--Ts a few bucks!)
You'll get to that place of letting go (not being forced to) when you are ready, and your own timetable is just fine. You'll know when the knowledge is costing you more than it's worth.
Hugs,
Hopalong
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(((((Hoppy)))))
Thanks hon.... I realise it will take time. I've always been quite impatient...
Apologies all for keep coming back to this.... but my brain just doesn't seem to understand this at the moment.
When I first read this I didn't see it as crossing any boundaries... in fact I didn't see it as anything much apart from him talking about what he thought.
Boundary violation, used, sexualised and emotional incest has been used to describe his email.... and I didn't see any of it.
Can anyone explain to me how they see the above?
Also, I keep coming back to this because I feel I'm missing something in this sentence:-
This is how I see it, so it could be argued it is my 'opinon' although I see it as just correctly interpreting the facts.
As I put on darky's post... it could imply that I was wrong before I opened my mouth to reply... but there's another bit... how do you interpret facts? Aren't facts just that.... facts? Maybe I'm trying to rationalise something that is irrational?
ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG
H&H xx
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Dear H&H gooood afternoon! :D
Please let me back up a little:
There is quite a lot of boundary hopping... the most disturbing one for me was the silly example... “I don't like potatoes but said I do to please you (my wife)”!!!! I can't really describe how that makes me feel, but it's not nice.
Is this….?...
He’s using the word ‘you’ throughout. Then he suddenly says ‘you (my wife)’.
Is your brain telling you something?
Hang on, :shock: don’t panic. :D It’s all explainable if I’m on track. If I’m not, tell me why not. Tell me why it feels not nice – icky. :?
When we feel icky and we don’t know why, there’s a reason. If we listen to what our feelings are trying to tell us, our brains will catch up. But we can’t force our brains! :D It’s like watching ourselves think and feel. There’s no right or wrong way either. Concentrate what you want to concentrate on and if it bothers you, shelve it until you want to look at it again. There’s no deadline and no pressure!
Okay?
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PS
Apologies all for keep coming back to this....
H&H!!!!!!! :o :shock:
I’m going to have to come around to your place and give you a piece of my mind! :mrgreen:
Are you apologising for speaking again?
Hahahaha :D I absolutely adore you, you know. :D Yes I do! You’re great. You’re a joy. :D
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(((((((((Portia))))))))))
I've been thinking why I apologise.... and you know, I think it's because I've spent the last 30 years listening to him, and because of how I feel about him, then I think others won't want to listen to me drone on and on and on about this. Does that make any sense? I do apologise more because I feel people have better things to do... though I suppose if people did have better things to do, they wouldn't respond. Hmmmmm.
This was my reply to him at the time....
So yes, you have won that argument.
I feel this is not an argument and there are no right or wrong answers so this is a wee bit unfair.
I feel that by being responsible for the thought process i.e:-
Choice
Thought
Action
Thought
Consequence
If the consequence is ever something you don't like and don't enjoy that you go back to the beginning and start again until the consequence is something you enjoy and are happy with.
And if we look at the prisoner who is tortured, it depends how he reacts/responds mentally which could (not definitely) depend on his outcome. The prisoner who is held against his will still has a choice mentally. He can think, "Poor me, this is awful, I will never get out of here, I want to die, I wish they would kill me". Or he can think "Ok, this is not good and I've been in better situations, but I will think of my wife/happy thoughts to get me through and I just hope that god will hear me and that I will see them again"
If we look the husband who get's potatoes every day even though he doesn't like them, he has a few choices, 1-to live with it, 2-to get someone who does not give him potatoes, or 3-to communicate to his wife he does like them so therefore change his inevitable potato eating days.
It ok saying there will be periods of unhappiness in all marriages, but you can do things to try and prevent unhappiness.... things like not taking your husband for granted, buying your husband little gifts every so often to show that you appreciate him, telling him you appreciate him and what he does, thanking him for doing things for you, making decisions together... by working at these things daily there is the possibility that you can prevent unhappiness. But the husband will also need to work at it the same... I will hopefully be able to let you know if these work in 10 years time! This is my idealistic view, but is still more realistic that your view.
Of course it fell on deaf ears because he was right anyway....
The cogs are still wooorrrring away...... I can see why I would feel icky with his silly story.... though I've read it a few times since and I think it's more than that too. 1. there is a very warped logic in there... and 2. (and I'm not sure about this... but) Is he blaming me for giving him pototoes in the first place? Yes, he says it's his fault for not saying, but is he saying it's my fault as his wife for giving him pototoes? This is where I'm getting really confused... And if he does say in a silly story that I'm "his wife"... is this sort of how he sees me? Is this emotional incest? Or do I just sound like a fruit loop?
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Okay, H&H, I’m a philosopher, I’m a logical rational too, so let’s have a go at this little piece of mind-mashing crazy-making stuff.
This is how I see it, so it could be argued it is my 'opinon' although I see it as just correctly interpreting the facts.
Any interpretation is an opinion, in my opinion! Unless perhaps we’re taking scientific endeavour or maths? 2+2=4 is a fact. Thinking that 2+x=4 is an interpretation, I’m inferring that x is = to 2, when it could be any number.
You can interpret a bunch of facts, but your interpretation is an assumption, an inference. It may be wrong. You can’t say it’s a fact in itself. To say that he sees it as “correctly interpreting” makes me want to ask, so what would an incorrect interpretation look like?
He thinks he knows everything. He’s wrong. That’s my opinion!
What is a fact? Something we *know* to be *true*.
As I put on darky's post... it could imply that I was wrong before I opened my mouth to reply... but there's another bit... how do you interpret facts? Aren't facts just that.... facts? Maybe I'm trying to rationalise something that is irrational?
You’re trying to understand how his nutcase brain works. Good motivation H&H.
You are wrong before you open your mouth eh? Yes. Interesting from both your point of view and his.
You’re wrong even when silent. That keeps you confused and voiceless. How do you learn anything if you’re not allowed to ask questions? If you’re not allowed to voice an alternative? You don’t learn, what you infer is that you are ‘wrong’ plain and simple. Wrong, bad etc. Bad girl!
He wants you wrong because he has to be right. He has to remain in control and he needs to be correct. If there’s a possibility that he might be wrong on one thing, his whole inner world just might collapse. This is basic survival for him. He can’t afford to be wrong, so he won’t be. Totally irrational but necessary for his psychic survival. Your Dad isn't mentally well-balanced H&H. My opinion.
how do you interpret facts? Aren't facts just that.... facts?
Yep. Unless you’ve got a load of stuff to hide from yourself and the rest of the world, a load of shame and lies. When people lie they deny the facts – the truth. Your dad denies some truths about himself and so he has to create an alternative reality where he gets to decide what is true and what isn’t. Scary huh? Lots of folks do it.
Facts are what we all decide together are truths. The best way to check reality is to ask other people – lots of other people. If 90% of people say it’s a fact, I’d go with the 90%. Hey the sun rose today! Yeah! (yeah x 90) and 10 people say no it didn’t. Your dad is amongst those 10.
How do we cope? Trust what we know to be true.
Maybe I'm trying to rationalise something that is irrational?
I know what I think and what I feel. For sure. I know about me. Anyone else? Heck I don’t know. But I know myself and I trust myself. What do you know and trust? I think your brain works well. Do you think he's irrational?
I wonder if there is a part of you that knows that your Dad lies. A part of you that wants to be heard, to say “that’s not true”. Maybe a part that knows your own truth and that truth is at complete odds with what your Dad says.
All this is of course simply my opinion :D
What else bugs you in that mind-mash? Keep talking, please. That stuff of his is a MESS. What matters is what matters to you in it.
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Haha! :D ‘Someone posted while you were writing’….oh no! :o What do I do? Heck my post will be out of sync! The sky will fall in! We’re all doomed!!! :shock: :shock: :shock: Hahaha :D sorry H&H I couldn’t hold that back – bleugh :P all over the board. I shall read your post, have a fag, make a coffee and return in a while. That ‘facts’ post above – I’m just trying to show off and making a complete pig’s ear of it. I never was any good at pure logic. And it shows!!
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Is there a space to post? Are you typing? Oh the ant-ic-i-pa-TION!
I've been thinking why I apologise.... and you know, I think it's because I've spent the last 30 years listening to him, and because of how I feel about him, then I think others won't want to listen to me drone on and on and on about this. Does that make any sense?
Absolute sense to me. I love listening to you. Many others do too, so it’s not just me! That’s closer to reality. See? Lots of people think you’re interesting and intelligent. If one person doesn’t, what are you going to think about yourself? Are you going to agree with the one person, or with the many? It’s your choice. You can choose to trust other people and when you trust others, you trust yourself more. You *know* that you are close to reality in what you say above. It makes sense. It’s a sensible opinion to think that you’ve been conditioned to believe something that isn’t, in FACT, true. The fact is: we’re listening to you. Because we want to. Nobody is forcing us. Therefore what can you infer? That we like it. Therefore ….. you are interesting. FACT! :D Haha.
I do apologise more because I feel people have better things to do... though I suppose if people did have better things to do, they wouldn't respond. Hmmmmm.
BINGO :D
And even better, in listening and talking to you, I’m learning about myself!! It’s a (*wince*) win-win situation! Hahahahaha oh I don’t like those sales terms. But it’s true, I am learning. My step-dad did this mind-crap to me. “I have many faults” he said “being wrong is not one of them”. :shock: :x
If we look the husband who get's potatoes every day even though he doesn't like them, he has a few choices, 1-to live with it, 2-to get someone who does not give him potatoes, or 3-to communicate to his wife he does like them so therefore change his inevitable potato eating days.
Hahahaaaaaaaaa this is good! :DYou’re funny H&H!
It ok saying there will be periods of unhappiness in all marriages, but you can do things to try and prevent unhappiness.... things like not taking your husband for granted, buying your husband little gifts every so often to show that you appreciate him, telling him you appreciate him and what he does, thanking him for doing things for you, making decisions together... by working at these things daily there is the possibility that you can prevent unhappiness. But the husband will also need to work at it the same... I will hopefully be able to let you know if these work in 10 years time! This is my idealistic view, but is still more realistic that your view.
All good solid stuff. Q: Idealistic? Or plain realistic? What do you think? There’s nothing wrong with you.
Of course it fell on deaf ears because he was right anyway....
Sorry H&H. :( and i am sorry.
I’m thinking about your next para...
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It's funny what you say about asking questions.... I was encouraged to ask questions so we can "listen and learn together". Do you know what this means? To him this means that I can ask questions which is fine as long as I come to the same conclusion as him.
Before I started this I thought he was odd... my H thought he was odd as well. So my thinking was odd doesn't equal mentally unbalanced.... However, yes I do think he's in another reality and yes Portia, I do think he's irrational. But then I think
What bugs me.... most of it bugs me. It really seems to matter to me with his saying about divorce. Your natural parents should stay together because they know best, that they are best people to bring you up... and then I think comparing me to an animal.... yeah, great that he thinks that but it didn't happen... they split up and now because HE didn't bring me up I didn't get the best apparently. He has no idea what it was like for me... he never had to juggle his parents and he hasn't even got enough empathy to begin to understand what it was like for me. He doesn't know what I like or dislike, he doesn't know who I am, he doesn't know my sense of humour.
The bit about self control and sexual urges I find very scary.... he has to control his urges? Why?
What matters to me is that instead of feeling sorry for him, I find him mental and scary.... It bugs me that there is nothing I can do about it, it bugs me that he's never been a dad to me and bugs me even more that he blames me for that. The way he is, who he is BUGS ME! xx
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:lol: :lol: You do make me laugh hon.... loved the bit about posts out of sinc.
You said on your other post about wanting to be a stand up commedian... You should do it. I have a standard joke with a friend who says "You should try everything once"... after a few wines it can be a very funny conversation... you know crossing dressing, transvestite etc :D
All good solid stuff. Q: Idealistic? Or plain realistic? What do you think? There’s nothing wrong with you
I was thinking it may be idealistic because probably every marriage does have periods of unhappiness... but hopefully realistic enough that me and H would get through it...
I wouldn't say there was nothing wrong with me, however it's a shame they don't provide confidence in tablet form :D
Luckily (God knows how!), I think my belief system is ok.... hurrah!
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there is a very warped logic in there...
Oh yes. Too much warp-factor illogic for me to read it all properly! I need you to tell me what’s important. I can’t handle all his stuff, honestly. (Sorry) It’s too weird and it makes me angry.
and 2. (and I'm not sure about this... but) Is he blaming me for giving him pototoes in the first place?
Q. Were you the first person to feed him pots? Ever in his life?
Yes, he says it's his fault for not saying, but is he saying it's my fault as his wife for giving him pototoes?
Not sure if he’s blaming the giver or not. As you say, the logic is warped. I *know* (I trust my perception) that the logic is warped, so I tend to ignore what he says. It’s irrelevant to me. It’s nonsense. It’s nuts. Unhealthy.
is he saying it's my fault as his wife
when were you his wife?...wait P...
This is where I'm getting really confused... And if he does say in a silly story that I'm "his wife"... is this sort of how he sees me?
Right, okay. Is he saying that you’re his wife? Is he actually saying that? I’m going to read his stuff again. This is important, maybe, perhaps. I need to check the facts. I need to check exactly what he said up thar over the page. Then I’ll come back.
Is this emotional incest? Or do I just sound like a fruit loop?
Okay, I’ll be Frank, you can be Betty okay? From some of the things you’ve told us, or me, there is no doubt in my mind that your father has had an unhealthy relationship with you, always. There are things you’ve said which point to his relating to you in a sexualised way. When parents do that to their kids, it’s emotional incest. The potato thing is just one key to that. There are others. What’s important is what is important to you. The things that you find important – niggling, nonsensical things maybe – are your brain giving you a nudge. Your brain says “Look at this! This matters!”. Doesn’t matter if it’s about potatoes or about the little silver paper horse at the end of the film Blade Runner (still with me?) – if it’s lurching up out of your unconscious, it matters.
I wonder what you dream about! What does your unconscious want you to look at?
Trotting off to page 1 (that paper horse is in my head!) trot trot, trot trot...
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Ok... going through it all....
The bit about choices at the beginning is ok.... this is just his black and white thinking. Right or wrong, no grey area.
The bible bit.... I'm not hugely religious so this is just what he wants to believe.
This is becasue the devil is in charge, and wants you to live against God's teachings - This bit, to me, just shows that he's delusional.
This 'life' comes from a man and woman having sex. (Don't complicate the issue with artificial inscemination etc) To continue life, this 'sex drive' is very powerful, the most powerful urge we have. It is an irritional urge, as it means intense pain for the woman, and years of hard labour caring for his family for the man.
This bothers me.... it bothers me because his thinking is irrational, but also bothers me he thinks the sex drive is the most powerful urge we have. If he thinks it's so powerful and irrational, he could be like a time bomb. This frightens me.
So why is it important for the man and woman to stay together to bring up their children?
The birth of an animal, no matter what species, or the means of it's conception obeys the laws of this universe. It is made up of atoms, and the DNA forms the map the atoms follow, to make the being/creature.
From being born, animals learn the skills for life. This is different for every animal, and often different for each indivual animal of each species. The best teachers are their natural parents. This is because usually ( I think) the majority of the genes come from these 2 animals.
So the best teachers, the ones who understand you the best, are your natural mother and father
This bothers me because of the majority of genes coming from these two animals.... this bothers me because he is saying you are part of me. This is probably the one bit I would like to deny.... I wish I didn't look like him, and I wish I wasn't related to him. It bothers me because he thinks your natural mother and father are the ones who understand you best and he doesn't know me at all.
This is why divorce is wrong (in most cases). When you decide (yes, your own decision) that you have found someone who will make an acceptable, and suitable 'mate' (this is what we do when we see someone we like) it is important that when you give in to your sexual urges (the reason for self control) it is with the person you are prepared to spend the rest of your life with. Because any offspring will need the skill, and knowledge of their natural parents to give them the best chance of success.
This bothers me because of the sexual urges and the reason for self control.... this also bothers me because he thinks any offspring (i.e. Me) will need his skill and knowledge. It bothers me because he thinks he has something to offer me to give me the best chance of success.
I did make a mistake having a relationship with ????. I was in need of a friend, and I do miss human contact (mainly hugs) but do not really miss having sex. This left me in a vulnerable position, able to make mistakes easily. As I have already told you, I do believe I would find my 'soulmate' and after doing so, and 'making love' as opposed to having sex, means there is absolutely no point in sex with anyone else.
This bothers me because I don't see why he felt the need to tell me he missed having sex. I'm 30 years old, why the need to tell me about making love and sex?
I will not discuss the relationship to your mother, simply because it is in the past, and there is no changing it. I disagree that we were equally to blame, although of course I take responsibility for some of the blame. Mainly I did not listen to people (some friends etc) who said I was wrong to marry her. They could see things better than I could.
This shows his irrational thoughts again. It bothers me though because he wouldn't discuss it.... maybe I need to hear about it, hear why they split up, hear why they hate each other.
And from what I understand you were violent to her once also and slapped her. I will just explain this. I was never violent to her as such, but if I remember correctly, I was trying to get her to answer a question, with either yes or no. She refused point blank, keeping silent, so to get her to talk I poked her with my fist, but because I was so angry I did it too hard. This was while I was lying in bed alongside her and was sideways.
This again is just his irrational thoughts. This bothers me in a way, because he's justifying hitting Mum... which in turn could have related to the physical abuse she dealt me. I think the physical abuse from Mum was part of her anger again him.
Please do not talk to her about our relationship, as this is in the past and will do no good whatsoever. I can't stress this enough.
This doesn't bother me... I think the don't talk to her about it was because I know that he was violent to her, but obviously he has to do whatever it takes so I don't confront his version of events.
Yes my views are idealistic, but just because others do things wrongly is no reason for me not to try to do them properly. As to being happy, or unhapply, well that is down to both people. There will be periods of unhappiness in all marriages, and again it is down to both people to take every means possible to solve the problem, and so make the marriage happy again.
This doesn't bother me.... this is possibly the most normal (ok, it's not quite normal but normal compared to the rest for him) thing in this email.
So just to sum up (and please don't get angry if this is not accurate, or you think it wrong) you get angry and frustrated with me, and think that is because I have clinical depression, and will do nothing about it. I think you now know this is not the case, and I genuinely cannot work, because of a combination of small things, not one large one. The degenerative disc limits the kind of work I can do, most of which I am not qualified for, or have any experience.
This doesn't bother me.... I may find this bit refreshing because although he goes on about his degenerative disc, he is admitting he can't work because of a combination of small things. It's another lie to himself though because I'm beginning to see that he has rather large mental problems.
So you need to be looking for other causes for your feelings. Some of this may be down to the fact of you being my daughter, and my father had almost exactly the same feelings for me. This is what I mean when I say you take after him. Linda said when I entered the room, he changed from a nice person to something else. It was inexplicable.
This bothers me because it is just blaming me.
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My step-dad did this mind-crap to me. “I have many faults” he said “being wrong is not one of them”.
I HATE this saying Portia.... It is one of the most hypicritical useless sayings around. (sarcasm) Yes I have faults however I'm not wrong so I don't have any! Stoopid!
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I just scanned your last post. Good stuff. I’m going to read it properly later. It’s great H&H. In the meantime, here’s some more.
Ohhhhh it hurts my head reading his stuff! :D
This 'life' comes from a man and woman having sex. (Don't complicate the issue with artificial inscemination etc) To continue life, this 'sex drive' is very powerful, the most powerful urge we have. It is an irritional urge, as it means intense pain for the woman, and years of hard labour caring for his family for the man.
Can I just say: bollocks. Not only is this just soooo…ooo..STUPID and childish and uninformed and preachy crap, it’s also not appropriate from a father to daughter. And he talks to you as if you’re about 10. It’s so patronising. :x :x :x
So the best teachers, the ones who understand you the best, are your natural mother and father.
This is such simplistic bullshit! :mrgreen:This is making me so annoyed it’s almost funny! God help us. It’s also manipulative: “who understand you best” yeah babe! I know how your brain works! I understand you best so therefore I know what’s best for you! BRAINWASHING TECHNIQUE :shock:. Oops sorry. Getting too annoyed. :D
Okay..
A very simple and silly example. Suppose I don't like potatoes (any food) but I say I do to please you (my wife). You give me potatoes to eat everyday, so I am unhappy as I don't like them. That is my fault, and I should live with it, not get someone else who does not give me potatoes.
I tried to read from the top, all of it, to this point (have to admit I struggled to read every line, it’s just too mind-warpingly bad) and I got to this and I thought, no, correction, I felt it. Yeah. I agree with you H&H, this is off-kilter. Something is wrong with (my wife). It doesn’t make sense. Why did he specify?
This is really weird. Can you find the post where you talked about the potato thing? Do I remember correctly? That he was annoyed with you, for feeding him (mashed??) potatoes? Can you tell me about that again? perleeease???
In the meantime, some more. But please, I’m fascinated by that potato thing. Is that sad or what? haha that I'm fascinated!
It's funny what you say about asking questions.... I was encouraged to ask questions so we can "listen and learn together".
Ohhhh eeeewwwwwwww! ICKY ICKY ICKY. Boundary violation! You’re the child, he’s the parent! He’s not supposed to learn with you, at least he’s not supposed to say so. That makes you the parent to him!
Do you know what this means? To him this means that I can ask questions which is fine as long as I come to the same conclusion as him.
Yes I know. It’s a one-way street. With no escape. :(
Before I started this I thought he was odd... my H thought he was odd as well. So my thinking was odd doesn't equal mentally unbalanced.... However, yes I do think he's in another reality and yes Portia, I do think he's irrational. But then I think
Okay what do you think mentally unbalanced means? I think I was mentally unbalanced until I came here. Not ‘insane’ but definitely off-balance, not ‘healthy’. Lots of people ‘function’ in society but that doesn’t mean they’re all at the same place in their heads. Functioning is eating, sleeping, washing, holding down a job or getting money and managing it. We can go home and chew the carpet and we won’t be thought insane. A little unusual in our eating habits perhaps. All I mean is there’s a range, a spectrum of mental ‘health’ and your Dad is not where you are. One view of insanity is that it’s not knowing the difference between what’s in your head, and what’s not in your head – hearing voices, seeing things that everyone else doesn’t see etc. Your Dad’s views about ‘reality’ and ‘facts’ are a little off the norm.
What bugs me.... most of it bugs me. It really seems to matter to me with his saying about divorce. Your natural parents should stay together because they know best, that they are best people to bring you up... and then I think comparing me to an animal.... yeah, great that he thinks that but it didn't happen... they split up and now because HE didn't bring me up I didn't get the best apparently.
This is twisting the facts the suit his own inflated image of himself. He’s twisting facts. He’s denying your true reality, your true childhood, your self. Is it any wonder he bugs you? Do you have a right to your own version of your childhood? Or do you simply exist only in the way that he sees you?
He has no idea what it was like for me... he never had to juggle his parents and he hasn't even got enough empathy to begin to understand what it was like for me. He doesn't know what I like or dislike, he doesn't know who I am, he doesn't know my sense of humour.
I’m sorry but you know you’re right. I know it hurts and it makes me angry.
The bit about self control and sexual urges I find very scary.... he has to control his urges? Why?
Because he’s fucked up, to be blunt for a change. Are you scared that he’s saying his sexual urges might have overflowed a little in your direction, in his head, if not actually in reality? This communication with you IN ITSELF is crossing boundaries. Fathers don’t discuss sexual urges with their daughters. Do they?
:?: :?: :?:Dear Board members: I need some feedback here. Do healthy, loving fathers ever discuss sexual urges with their daughters? I need a reality check please.
What matters to me is that instead of feeling sorry for him, I find him mental and scary
I find him mental and scary. Seriously. Who said you have to feel sorry for him? Do you feel sorry for you?
.... It bugs me that there is nothing I can do about it
You can change your mind. You can keep thinking about it. You can change yourself. You can change your attitude towards him. You can not care quite so much. All this is do-able! :D
, it bugs me that he's never been a dad to me
:( :( :(
and bugs me even more that he blames me for that.
Yeah, well, I’m inclined towards castration :evil: :evil: and forehead tattooes for parents who behave like this to their kids. I kind of run out of patience and tolerance and all that good stuff. I sort of lean towards annihilation at this point.
The way he is, who he is BUGS ME!
I’m not surprised. You know, it’s not your fault that he bugs you. It’s not because you’re ‘wrong’ or ‘unbalanced’. We treat children a certain way and it’s a case of cause and effect. You are bothered by him because of who he is and who he was to you when you were young. You can’t help it. But you can think about it and challenge some of your childhood beliefs – such as believing that you’re not interesting enough to listen to!
Potatoes. Enquiring minds want to know! :D See you anon, P
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This is becasue the devil is in charge, and wants you to live against God's teachings -
This bit, to me, just shows that he's delusional.
Many people might not agree with you here! But I do. In my opinion, he’s delusional. I’m entitled to my opinion, and so are you. But some people do believe that the devil is in charge. They’re entitled to their opinions. I’m just talking with you here, and you’re talking to me. Anything wrong with that? That’s one of those rhetorical questions. :D
This bothers me.... it bothers me because his thinking is irrational, but also bothers me he thinks the sex drive is the most powerful urge we have. If he thinks it's so powerful and irrational, he could be like a time bomb. This frightens me.
Yah. It bothers me too. I don’t like it one bit.
this bothers me because he is saying you are part of me.
Some people don’t actually think their children are separate beings. He seems to be one of these. He thinks you are part of him. You’re not. You have some basic genes, but you have your own feelings and thoughts. He can't process that idea.
This is probably the one bit I would like to deny.... I wish I didn't look like him, and I wish I wasn't related to him. It bothers me because he thinks your natural mother and father are the ones who understand you best and he doesn't know me at all.
Yep. When we’re faced with lies (I know you best) from those who had a profound impact on us, we can go into does-not-compute confusion. Our little kiddie brains – and we do still have them – fight against out big adult brains. Our kiddie brains say: “yes, you’re my dad, you MUST understand me, protect me, love me” but our adult brains argue and say “but you don’t know ‘me’ at all! This is nonsense!” and the two brains get locked in a panicky confusion. How can my loving Daddy not understand me – and do it so badly? And why should I – a big grown-up person – even care? Those hard-wired beliefs from childhood are very difficult to change. You’re well on the road to changing them. It hurts though. Hurting is good! Hurting = change.
This bothers me because of the sexual urges and the reason for self control.... this also bothers me because he thinks any offspring (i.e. Me) will need his skill and knowledge. It bothers me because he thinks he has something to offer me to give me the best chance of success.
I’m having really quite sick thoughts about all this. It may just be my experience coming through so I won’t write them down. But they are sick and twisted and sexual.
This bothers me because I don't see why he felt the need to tell me he missed having sex. I'm 30 years old, why the need to tell me about making love and sex?
You know what? I don’t think you should spend time alone with your dad, should the occasion ever happen. Just to be on the very safe (paranoid) side.
It bothers me though because he wouldn't discuss it.... maybe I need to hear about it, hear why they split up, hear why they hate each other.
I need to hear all that about my folks too. I need to hear that it wasn’t my fault. All kids of divorced parents think it’s their fault, unless some person tells the otherwise.
This bothers me in a way, because he's justifying hitting Mum... which in turn could have related to the physical abuse she dealt me. I think the physical abuse from Mum was part of her anger again him.
Oh I’m so sorry. Poor little H&H with no-one to care for you, no-one who damn well protected you. Yeah, your mum probably did transfer her anger with him onto you. Where the hell did that leave you? Who took care of you? I'm both sad and angry about all this.
he has to do whatever it takes so I don't confront his version of events
bravo. I think you’re right.
Yes my views are idealistic, but just because others do things wrongly is no reason for me not to try to do them properly. As to being happy, or unhapply, well that is down to both people. There will be periods of unhappiness in all marriages, and again it is down to both people to take every means possible to solve the problem, and so make the marriage happy again.
This doesn't bother me.... this is possibly the most normal (ok, it's not quite normal but normal compared to the rest for him) thing in this email.
Wait. just because others do things wrongly is no reason for me not to try to do them properly. This is a joke!!!! HE did wrong. HE hit his wife. HE ignored his daughter. Not ‘others’ – him. :x
This bothers me because it is just blaming me.
Blaming our children for our shortcomings is EVIL. And I don’t like to use the word evil, but in some cases it kind of works. *Just* blaming you? Would you do this to your children?
That’s the point. Would you do this to your children? Would you allow your lovely hubby to treat your daughter like this? Might throw a perspective on it.
Hey I gotta go. I’ve enjoyed talking today. :D I’m learning about me too. Potatoes. :D ((((((H&H))))))
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Portia.... you have said stuff to this that I wanted to say... you said bullshit and bollocks. That is what I think, but am too polite to say it... but it's sooooooo true!!! Thank you, thank you, thank you!
Mentally unbalanced... Functioning is eating, sleeping, washing, holding down a job or getting money and managing it. - yes he functions. Can't hold down a job, but he manages money, he eats, he sleeps, he exists, he functions. He's also lazy and idle and will get anyone to do something for him if they will do it. It pees him off big style that he has to look after himself... he goes on and on about if he doesn't look after himself, no one else will. All emotional manipulation.... But if we call him mentally unbalanced, what does that mean? He's still not going to change... he said to me in one email that he was unable to change, not unwilling, unable. Then a load more bollocks about God made him this way blah blah blah. That would change that for me.... I think mentally unbalanced people can change, so it's probably more of a case that he doesn't want to change.
Regarding the post with the potato thing.... Do you mean where he kicked me out? That was beans on toast... you know, he might have let me stay if I made him mashed pototoes (joke!)
I used to feel sorry for him, before all this. I used to feel sorry for him because he didn't get on with his dad and I could see how it hurt him.... I used to feel sorry for him because I thought he didn't have much luck in life... but it was only because he was using emotional manipulation... Now I can see a lot of what has happened to him is his own self doing. How can you feel sorry for someone who has brought a lot of it on themselves with their blaming and manipulation? I don't think I feel sorry for me.... Ok, I got dealt some poor parents... shit happens doesn't it? I still live a more full life than either of my parents, so why feel sorry for me?
The sexual stuff is f*cked up.... and what happens to people with f*ucked up sexual thoughts who feel they have to control them with self control. I'm not worried about me.... I worried about the next person he encounters. His ex was 15 when he was 37.... he doesn't have any boundaries there. Do you know what I mean?
Anyway.... I'm going to have to hop off, tootle loo for now.... Look forward to hearing your thoughts.
H&H xx
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((((((((((H &H))))))))))))) and (((((((((((((Portia))))))))))))
I would give my TEETH to be able to sit in a pub (dang, we don't have pubs) with the two of you and talk for hours. (Well, I might dribble my beer if I had no teeth.)
H & H, just a couple things:
DITTO DITTO every single syllable Portia said about you being interesting and wonderful to listen to and how if anybody didn't want to respond they wouldn't. You are a treasure, your process is a teaching for everyone and I respect you enormously. I love you and learn from you!
I have ZERO question in my mind whatsoever that your father does and says things to you that are/were full of incestuous overtones. All I needed to learn was one thing, some time back: HE TRIED TO GET YOU TO DATE HIS ADULT FRIENDS. Full stop. All of these subtler icky-feeling (ditto the listen to and respect your inner ick-meter!) things he does, like "lecture" you about sex while at the same time because he wrote it and you were reading it (innocently, trying to have a dialogue before you wised up)--he was thereby forcing you to imagine his "sexual urges" etc...It is all just part of the same package. [I doubt he's dangerous, btw, I think he's pathetic. And toxic. And sexualizes you as an object and doesn't have a clue how inappropriate he is. He's probably turning to you--ICK!!!--to talk about sex because no other female is willing to listen. He probably sets of ick-radar in any healthy woman.]
A disordered, invasive man who does not have any sense of appropriate boundaries with his daughter. It really doesn't matter that it's verbal (lots of Ns are so slick verbally)--what matters is the content. And it's inappropriate private revelations about sex (twisted around RELIGION, no less), and intrusive remarks, and just plain LIES. (Loved the remark about your natural parents "knowing you best." Right. He doesn't know a damn thing that matters about you. And he never will because--please forgive me if this sounds cruel---he's honestly not interested in you, H&H. You're just an ear (Ns are desperate for listeners, remember), and he has believed that he had a "right" to engage your attention. Never mind what it cost you, that wouldn't cross his mind...
(Yes, a healthy father could offer tactfully expressed wisdom about sexual matters to his daughter. But not a man who tried to pimp her to his friends and who tries to invade her head and who is a raving N.)
I also found it interesting he FORBADE you to discuss hiim with your mother. I don't think it matters if you do or not. But what's important is to notice that HE'S TELLING YOU WHAT TO DO. Nope. You are an adult and he has no right to tell you what you may say or not say to anyone. Ever.
And my last wisdom for this post is this:
AN ADULT MAN CAN COOK HIS OWN DAMN TURNIPS.
Was I shouting? Sorry.
XXOO,
Hopalong
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HE'S TELLING YOU WHAT TO DO. Nope. You are an adult and he has no right to tell you what you may say or not say to anyone. Ever.
Absolutely fantastic! :D I think I need to really consider this very carefully, myself! :oops: :D
Great big honest huge-hearted post Hop. You can dribble in my beer anytime! Okay, but if you do, you're gonna have to drink it okay? I got me some boundaries these days. haha :D bye all
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((((((((((((Hoppy)))))))))))))))) & ((((((((((((((((((Portia))))))))))))))))))))
You can't beat a good english pub... roaring fires and a glass of wine. And I can't think of two better people to be sat with...
Wonder what you call someone who gives out emotional incest... emotional incester, heck if you've got more than one... a gaggle of emotional incesters :D
Late last year CeeMee said something to me (and I'm sure she won't mind that I'm bringing it up now, but sorry if you do CeeMee)... she said about feeling that gut wrenching anger. I've never felt it, but I can feel it starting.... it's starting in the pit of my stomach.
How dare he use me? As if I'm a thing! How dare he use the emotional manipulation and incest on me? I am here, I am alive and I am now... I am NOT here for his gain... that is NOT my only reason for existing.
Hoppy you hit the nail on the head with something... it was this... And he never will because--please forgive me if this sounds cruel---he's honestly not interested in you, H&H. You're just an ear..... How silly of me for thinking he was interested? How can he be interested in me? To be interested would mean he would have to put me first, even for half an hour.
I have to go now.... but I'll be back....
H&H xx
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Actually.... I've been doing more reading of the emails.... and last year I suggested he asked me two questions about myself in each email he sent, because I felt he wasn't interested in me.
Here's his response:-
Why on earth do you think I'm not interested in you? You are the only family I've got. Any relationship requires commitment, and work from both parties....not one always giving in to the other. It is a 'partnership' requiring give and take from both people. There is a saying 'do unto others, as you would have them do to you'. This however can lead to problems, as people want different things.
I once said to someone I was ok when people got to know me. I was given the answer 'yes, but why should they bother'. I learnt from that, in fact as usual it's easy to be wise after the event
I suppose I volunteer information, instead of waiting for people to ask. This of course could be why you mistakenly think I'm not interested in others. I expect them to do the same. I'm also an open, and honest person, with nothing (or little) to hide.
So tell me about yourself. After all, when you think about it, I've really seen very little of you, apart from when you were here. Is there any wonder we were strangers, who couldn't understand one another when you came.
And this is the one from the next day....
Hil - you say I need a job. Well get me a job like yours, that I can email my friends while getting paid <grin>. I can do that from home of course.
I know you like, and are interested in food. It's just I find life has so much to offer, and so many interesting things to do, that I've never really had time to bother much with the delights of eating.
As to the boating. I also understand (probably because I am your Father) how you can't swim, and don't like water. There is a way (the posh name is Systamatic Desensitisation) to get used to things that frighten you, or you are mentally unable to do. For instance I was unable to walk past the factory entrance on Waterside North after I had to leave. I did however want to go past on a boat. I think this stems from all the days walking back, especially on a sunny day, when I longed for a boat to come past, and invite me aboard, to stop me having to go back inside the hated place.
However, having the boat I often talked to people at the lock at Bardney. One day, I saw someone who I knew in the lock at Stamp End, and walked round to see them. This was from the other end of the road, near Lincs FM. I walked back into town past the gates. This took some doing, but I had to go into town to the market stall (despite what you think, some days it is difficult for me to walk too far, or I suffer if I do) and it was a long way to walk back around and over the bridge. Soon I was walking past daily, as there is now a footpath alonside the river up to the Lock. It took about a year, but I can now walk past without making myself do it, or even thinking about it. Ken's wife is the same as you, and it took a little nerve from her, and helping hands from us at first to get on the boat, but now she likes it, although doesn't move about.
I know it is difficult with divorced parents.......one reason I do not believe in divorce. It's another thing I'm 'different'. I do not believe the view 'just because you have children you should have to sacrifice your life'. Once you have children, your life comes second BUT the children have to respect you, and your views. This is the main reason for most of societies ills today.
As I've already told you. You don't have to worry about me seeing them at your wedding. I'm not too bothered about tradition, and I've enough strength of character now, not to worry what people think of me, however unfair that might be.
Seeing councillors etc. is ok, but only really any good if both people, or parties see them. They need to be the mediator, to explain to the other person, or persons. The problem with this is, often the guilty party i.e. the one causing the problem will not accept the facts, or the solution. They will not accept they are the one at fault.
Talking of celebrities, personally I don't think there is any such thing. Tony Curtis once said in an interview when he was asked if he was working 'I don't work, work is digging a ditch'. Acting and singing is something you do for entertainment, after your 'proper' job. That is not to say it doesn't take a lot of skill, or talent, or that it is not hard work.
So, to go back to the start. Writing is work, so writing this email is work. The only difference is you get paid to write to me, but I have to do it for nothing. Did you know, your employer can have you charged with theft, theft of time. I hastily add, I think this is right, but am not totally sure. You see, I still work 24 hours a day, it's just I don't get paid for it <grin>.
There's several things in this.... he said to me previous to this that I should go boating so I would have a new interest.
The counsellor bit gets me now. When I first read this, I thought maybe he does realise he's at fault, however I can see now that this sentence is about me, the guilty party, not accepting that I am at fault.
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And he never will because--please forgive me if this sounds cruel---he's honestly not interested in you, H&H. You're just an ear (Ns are desperate for listeners, remember),
PS: I am now imagining us all a large ears with little arms and legs! :lol:
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Ayyyyeeeee! Hiya H&H, well my my. Have I got some way to go. My wee inner child is kicking and screaming, red in face with anger. Hot tears running down her face with the sheer intolerable arrogance, shamelessness, grandiosity, and downright cruelty your father heaps your way.
The adult me is sitting here stony-faced with lips pressed together. Taking a deep breath or two. :D
Don’t think I’m ready to reply yet; way too much anger at your dad and I’m not sure demonstrating my anger is gonna help you!
Some thoughts. Have you read John Bradshaw ‘Homecoming’? I started reading it again last night and found myself in tears reading the introduction. :roll: But then I do cry more these days, which can only be good.
feeling that gut wrenching anger. I've never felt it, but I can feel it starting.... it's starting in the pit of my stomach.
Anger like this is wonderful. Let it come. Note: my partner has often commented that my self-therapy seems to be causing me more pain, should I be doing it etc. All good-natured comments BUT it doesn’t help me. I know I have to do what I have to. No pain – no gain, no healing without suffering. Anger is a huge key. Anyway, if in doubt: trust yourself, trust your emotions.
How dare he use me? As if I'm a thing! How dare he use the emotional manipulation and incest on me? I am here, I am alive and I am now... I am NOT here for his gain...
Yay! :D
that is NOT my only reason for existing
It is not a reason at all. It’s a perversion from nature. Your reason to exist is to exist. In fact, you don’t need any reason. You exist. Welcome to the world! :D
Babies are born, welcomed into the world, loved, cherished, held and cuddled and smiled at simply because they bring joy to their parents. Their parents love them simply because they are. By being in the world, they make the world a better place. All babies! Babies are wonderful. I love babies!
Some of us are born to parents who don’t do those things. They don’t give us the unconditional love we need.
Instead they use us. Use is abuse.
Q. How does it feel to be an adult abused child? How does that label feel?
(All feelings are okay. Shame is okay. Guilt is okay, anger is okay. Icky is good. It’s what we do with them that matters.)
Maybe I’ll ask you what you think of that stuff of his above. When you’ve got time, have a pick through it and tell us what you think and feel about it. Take it line by line if you wish! I could. I’m ready to demolish it! :P
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HE COULDN'T BRING HIMSELF TO ASK YOU ANY QUESTIONS!!!. He probably thinks he did, that's the disorder. He probably finsihed that email thinking he'd shown all sorts of interest. Has no idea how he brought it all back to himself over and over...how flat and heavy and boring it is.
Why on earth do you think I'm not interested in you? You are the only family I've got.
That about says it all. Nothing to say about you being special, unique, and a gift from heaven and the light of his life, as a normal father would. Nope. He just wished to possess a relative. No real curiosity about you as a unique person, he's not really interested, it's all about him, over and over...
your job--he's jealous
your food interests--he's too superior to notice food
counseling--he already has the answer: everything is the fault of bad children
your swimming fear--he had a fear once but he triumphed over it (trumpets, please)
your writing to him--he's so jealous he wants to spoil your pleasure in writing at work (so he mentions you getting in trouble)....since N envy is so huge and so unaware...he'd probalby sabotage you just to STOP you from doing well, being healthy, having a good job and a happy life....
Makes me wanna go get a Qtip and scrub out my ears.
How are you doing, ((((((((H & H))))))))))))))??
Hope he has a nice float......far awaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
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hahaha :D Hoppy! :D good morning to you. I love your concise demolition! Suck-sink-t and to the point.
Personally I think we have an A-grade N in your Dad H&H. My opinion :D
Trotting off to my thread now for a bit of 'work'. I know now why this is called work.....see you later, P
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((((((((((((((((((((((((((Portia))))))))))))))))))))))))
First of all.... how are you?
Then... Why are you feeling angry? Share with me hon..... Don't worry about anger not be beneficial to me... sometimes we can share our most honest thoughts when angry.
How does it feel to be an adult abused child? Well I laughed initially.... who me, an adult abused child... then I thought shit.... and now I think hey ho, I'm still ok.
I haven't read Homecoming.... I'll look it up. I almost picked up "Sickened" yesterday about a girl who grew up with her Mum who had a disorder, where she had to go through lots of tests and operations as she grew up.
(((((((((((((((Hoppy))))))))))))))
My word Hop, that's quite some insight you seen.... I realised some of it, but nothing to that extent. I actually feel like whooping with joy!
How you doing Hoppy?
H&P.... I'm in and out of meetings today, just had one now and got another this afternoon, but my plan is to log in when I get a chance....
And since you asked P,.... here you go... breakdown.....
Why on earth do you think I'm not interested in you? You are the only family I've got. Any relationship requires commitment, and work from both parties....not one always giving in to the other. It is a 'partnership' requiring give and take from both people. There is a saying 'do unto others, as you would have them do to you'. This however can lead to problems, as people want different things.
Ok... going through this again. This confused me... I mean really confused me. Because it says of course I'm interested in you... what is wrong with you that makes you think I'm not!
I once said to someone I was ok when people got to know me. I was given the answer 'yes, but why should they bother'. I learnt from that, in fact as usual it's easy to be wise after the event.
Bizarre.... don't know what else to say except bizarre.
I suppose I volunteer information, instead of waiting for people to ask. This of course could be why you mistakenly think I'm not interested in others. I expect them to do the same. I'm also an open, and honest person, with nothing (or little) to hide.
I've lost count the amount of times he's told me what an open and honest person he is with nothing to hide. He expects others to do the same and it's my mistake that I think he's not interested in others. Actions speak louder than words, don't they?
So tell me about yourself. After all, when you think about it, I've really seen very little of you, apart from when you were here. Is there any wonder we were strangers, who couldn't understand one another when you came.
This pees me off.... I see so little of you apart from when you came to me... as you haven't come to me, it's no surprise that we didn't understand each other.
And this is the one from the next day....
Hi - you say I need a job. Well get me a job like yours, that I can email my friends while getting paid <grin>. I can do that from home of course.
Bollocks... he's actually allergic to the word work!
I know you like, and are interested in food. It's just I find life has so much to offer, and so many interesting things to do, that I've never really had time to bother much with the delights of eating.
As Hoppy says... yes you have this interest, he dismisses and and goes on about how much better things he has to do.... which are.... ah yes, boating and the dog.
As to the boating. I also understand (probably because I am your Father) how you can't swim, and don't like water. There is a way (the posh name is Systamatic Desensitisation) to get used to things that frighten you, or you are mentally unable to do. For instance I was unable to walk past the factory entrance on Waterside North after I had to leave. I did however want to go past on a boat. I think this stems from all the days walking back, especially on a sunny day, when I longed for a boat to come past, and invite me aboard, to stop me having to go back inside the hated place.
Again there's that "I understand because I'm your father"... Bullshit and bollocks....
However, having the boat I often talked to people at the lock at Bardney. One day, I saw someone who I knew in the lock at Stamp End, and walked round to see them. This was from the other end of the road, near Lincs FM. I walked back into town past the gates. This took some doing, but I had to go into town to the market stall (despite what you think, some days it is difficult for me to walk too far, or I suffer if I do) and it was a long way to walk back around and over the bridge. Soon I was walking past daily, as there is now a footpath alonside the river up to the Lock. It took about a year, but I can now walk past without making myself do it, or even thinking about it. Ken's wife is the same as you, and it took a little nerve from her, and helping hands from us at first to get on the boat, but now she likes it, although doesn't move about.
This.... oh you can come on my boat.... I've managed to get someone else who doesn't like boating to get on it. That last bit makes me laugh actually.... Ken's wife likes it, although she doesn't move about. That sounds like someone's have a whale of a time on his boat.
I know it is difficult with divorced parents.......one reason I do not believe in divorce. It's another thing I'm 'different'. I do not believe the view 'just because you have children you should have to sacrifice your life'. Once you have children, your life comes second BUT the children have to respect you, and your views. This is the main reason for most of societies ills today.
By respect you and your views, this means.... think the same... don't allow your child to think for herself or have an opinion... heck, she might be able to see you for who you are!!!!
As I've already told you. You don't have to worry about me seeing them at your wedding. I'm not too bothered about tradition, and I've enough strength of character now, not to worry what people think of me, however unfair that might be.
This is more bollocks.... I'm not bothered about tradition, however I'm going to say your marriage is doomed, you lie and expect things because you've chose your stepdad to walk you down the isle. I don't worry what people think of me.... however as long as they think nice things and no one criticises me!!!!
Seeing councillors etc. is ok, but only really any good if both people, or parties see them. They need to be the mediator, to explain to the other person, or persons. The problem with this is, often the guilty party i.e. the one causing the problem will not accept the facts, or the solution. They will not accept they are the one at fault.
More Bollocks (sorry for the overuse of the word bollocks.... need better swear words!!!)... this is my fault....pure and simple... bollocks!!!!
Talking of celebrities, personally I don't think there is any such thing. Tony Curtis once said in an interview when he was asked if he was working 'I don't work, work is digging a ditch'. Acting and singing is something you do for entertainment, after your 'proper' job. That is not to say it doesn't take a lot of skill, or talent, or that it is not hard work.
I'm getting bored now.... blah blah blah.....
So, to go back to the start. Writing is work, so writing this email is work. The only difference is you get paid to write to me, but I have to do it for nothing. Did you know, your employer can have you charged with theft, theft of time. I hastily add, I think this is right, but am not totally sure. You see, I still work 24 hours a day, it's just I don't get paid for it <grin>.
Poor Me.... even though I choose to do this, to live like this.... I don't get any money for writing to you... and just to stick the boot it, I'll try and say that you can be charged.
So... my dad is an asshole!!!!
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I'm feeling really angry and upset about all this now. It feels very kiddified, if that makes any sense... like I want to have a big childish strop. However the adult in me, stops this.
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Hey H & H,
If being angry for a bit blows out some fog and helps you love and claim yourself, no harm in it!
You won't get stuck there...
(One of the neatest things you said at one point was that you were getting...BORED). YAY!
It really hit me like a ton of bricks once that ultimately, Nism creates people who are very, very boring. Because there's no real liveliness in someone who's only got one note to sing: Mi Mi Mi Mi MMMMMiiii...
Thanks for asking about me, hon. I'm really doing better. I have a rotten cold just now so not a lot of energy (and dental surgery next week, ick)...but emotionally, better than in a good while.
--my doc gave me better pain relief for my back
--my T did an amazing hypnosis session w/me about stress (I came out with my forehead unwrinkled...I went to get my hair cut and was shocked when I looked in the mirror)
--I have accepted the reality about the job and am just doing one thing at a time
--I have also faced that if I one day must give up the house, life will still go on
--I did feel wonderful that I had that one date and so clearly and calmly said NO when I saw red flags. Did the same thing just the other day to a man who asked me out. Hadn't liked his signals.
Quite amazing. I just feel the franticness about being alone has gone away.
All in all, I'm doing okay!
Hugs,
Hopalong
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(((((((Hoppy))))))))
Sorry to hear about your cold and I hope you are feeling better and have more energy.
You sound pretty solid in that your not feeling (I just typed freeing.... I guess it's this as well), frantic any more... that you can accept what is happening, and that it's ok. I feel that's a great place to be.
I took a day out yesterday and read... read a whole book in one day. I haven't done that for a while. I didn't bother with the housework which I normally do on a weekend.
I love the author Sophie Kinsella, so last time I was in the bookshop I bought her new book, The Undomestic Goddess. It was about a high flyer financial lawyer, who thinks she's made a mistake and runs away.
There's one bit where she looks back, checks out the company that she used to work for website, and everything with her name has gone... every deal that she did where she was mentioned been wiped out...
She says: How dare they change history? How dare they just wipe me out? I gave seven years of my life to that company.
A tear escaped at this point.... because I felt that is what our parents do. They change history and wipe out that we exist. And we do give our lives to these people.
Anyway, it turned out in the book that she had been set up by a senior partner, but it was very interesting for reading about work/life balance, and how things are really. There's also a bit of a love story in there.
Maybe that's another way to look at it.... that we were set up (ok not intentionally) but set up all the same by our parents.
Just pondering thoughts....
H&H xx
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thanks for the suggestion...sounds like a great read!!
funny thing about sick in bed (as long as you're not nauseous)--it can be cozy to have a cold and therefore have a TOTAL excuse to laze about.
(Not that I never laze about, but this is lazing without guilt...)
Achoo, more later, it's beautiful here today...incredibly sunny for a January day.
Happy Sunday...
Hugs
Hops
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PS--I know what you mean about being set up by our parents.
The difference between them and an evil corporation is, I think...in most cases in coporations it's intentional strategy for profit.
In most dysfunctional families, with violent &/or N parents, I think it's more a case of a psychological cycle being passed down another generation.
My good friend who has PTSD from childhood abuse is very clear that her parent's violence toward her was directly traceable to the trauma her GRANDPARENTS experienced as refugees who had been brutalized. I have always admired that perspective.
You've still got to get AWAY from toxic parents. But in hindsight, you can look at them as broken.
The joyful, positive, wonderful thing about being born into the generation that has insights that started with Freud and Jung and culminate in wonderful psychologists like our Doctor Grossman...is that WE HAVE KNOWLEDGE THEY NEVER HAD.
(I remember when I first went to a T my parents were horrified, because they thought the ONLY answer was in religion, and they had pretty narrow interpretations of Biblical rules for behavior.)
Honor Thy Father and Mother...okay. Be thankful they provided life, but the best way to actually honor that gift is to go forward and make your own like as healthy and happy as you can.
Children are created to go forth and fly away. In some families it's safe to build their nests nearby and have cozy family circles. In others, the fledlings have to respond to life by flying far away and staying away from the dangerous people who hatched them.
It's not negating anything. It's saying yes, life is worth the best I can give it. Giving thanks to life itself by staying away from poisons... that's a much wider view than feeling pinned to bio-people, imho.
Jeez. Must be my fever. Achoo!
Hops
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I think it's more than we have knowledge though... I think each and every one of us here should be congratulated because we are using that knowledge to change what we believe to be true, to change what we were brought up with, so ourselves and our future generation have the ability to make the most of our/their lives.
I remember growing up I thought more than once, "Why did they have me?" "They obviously don't like me so why didn't they have me aborted?"
Basically I was asking.... "Why do I exist?" although I didn't realise this at the time.
I'm still not sure I can answer this now....
Everyone, what would be your answer to this.... what would you reply if you asked yourselves "Why do I exist?"
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That's a tough one, H & H. But a good one.
I know YOU have a purpose--you make people happy. You're kind. You're a good parent and spouse.
You share yourself. You always keep trying. You are a wonderful model of how to come out Healing and Hopeful after a really horrible childhood with damaged parents.
I think I have two purposes: to love, and secondly, to write.
Thanks for this thread...a gift to everyone.
Hugs,
Hopalong
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Hoppy... to write I feel is a gift you can give everyone.... but there's more (yep, the N spot in H&H in well and truly coming to out to play!), there's not just to love, there's to be loved as well. You are worth being loved, you are worth a healthy relationship, you are worth time away from your Mum. You can still care for her, but you are worth some space for yourself.
Thank you for the very kind things you've said hon....
The thing is, I know I had to go through all that stuff, to become the person I am today. On good days, like today, I like who I am. Even though I've been stressed at work today, even though my H is now working a nightshift, I can respond in ways I like. What I don't like however is where I came from.... I'm not sure what I'm trying to say really, so I'm going to leave it for a bit.....
So anyone else:-
what would be your answer to this.... what would you reply if you asked yourselves "Why do I exist?"
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Hiya H&H :D
Why was I angry? You Dad treats you worse than my mum treated me. I still get angry about my mum, so reading your Dad’s verbiage just gets me mad with these folks. But I’m not as angry as I sound. I want you to be angry. If you want to .
How does it feel to be an adult abused child? Well I laughed initially.... who me, an adult abused child... then I thought shit.... and now I think hey ho, I'm still ok.
Laughed because it seems unlikely? Then, “hmm, probably true, shit!” And yes you’re still okay. Why not? But why the ‘shit’ as it errrr appears? Does being abused as a kid make you a bad person now? Nope. But it does define what your parents did – they abused you. Does it matter what they are (if you were diagnosing their problems)? Does it matter more what the effect of their abuse was on you?
Homecoming is subtitled ‘reclaiming and championing your inner child’. It’s a work-through-book, detailing the problem and suggesting solutions. Heavy stuff. I tended to scorn and scoff at ‘inner child’ work at first. Very American. Scorning and scoffing were of course my false self reactions, defences against something I didn’t like – my inner child. I really didn’t like my inner child. Felt very ashamed and dismissive of little P. Didn’t want to know. I started reading this book and had a bad reaction so I stopped – until now. Now it feels right. Like I said, it’s heavy stuff. But I’ve moved from being a sceptic to a wary try-it-out person.
I mean really confused me. Because it says of course I'm interested in you... what is wrong with you that makes you think I'm not!
Yah. You think what IS wrong with me? Confusion is normal. Reality comes when you know, for sure, he’s not interested in you. When you can accept that. It takes a long time. It’s achievable though. If you want to go back and feel sad for little H&H who was confused about why her parents didn’t seem to care.
I once said to someone I was ok when people got to know me. I was given the answer 'yes, but why should they bother'. I learnt from that, in fact as usual it's easy to be wise after the event.
Bizarre.... don't know what else to say except bizarre.
This was a shaming event for your Pa. This hurt him but he doesn’t know it so he repeats it you, wanting to somehow negate the offence. It’s a great example of non-logic. That’s what they use, non-logic. It’s a logic (reality) all of their own, which we don’t share, thank goodness. Bizarre? Indeed yes.
Actions speak louder than words, don't they?
Every time. But they use words to crazy-make us.
This pees me off.... I see so little of you apart from when you came to me... as you haven't come to me, it's no surprise that we didn't understand each other.
I’m glad this pees you off. Put the responsibility where it lies – with the parent, not the child!
I know you like, and are interested in food. It's just I find life has so much to offer, and so many interesting things to do, that I've never really had time to bother much with the delights of eating.
Grandiosity (I’m so wonderful and my enjoyments are worth so much more than yours!) – the delights of eating, total put-down of your enjoyments. He has to be superior. That’s how he survives – by using you as a foil.
Again there's that "I understand because I'm your father"... Bullshit and bollocks....
Love it! The B&B that is. :D
walked back into town past the gates. This took some doing, but I had to go into town to the market stall (despite what you think, some days it is difficult for me to walk too far, or I suffer if I do)
He’s shaming you here “despite what you think” (you bad daughter). Suffer? I’m crying into my coffee – not.
and it was a long way to walk back around and over the bridge. Soon I was walking past daily, as there is now a footpath alonside the river up to the Lock. It took about a year, but I can now walk past without making myself do it, or even thinking about it.
Oh goody-gumdrops for you! Aren’t you clever and so brave and courageous to….. go for a walk!! Pass the sick-bag.
BUT the children have to respect you, and your views. This is the main reason for most of societies ills today.
BUT YOU HAVE TO RESPECT YOUR CHILDREN AND THEIR VIEWS. The fact that parents do not respect their children is the absolute uncontroversial :D reason for most of society’s ills today!! (Which society are we talking about here? The Co-Operative society?)
I'm not too bothered about tradition,
I’m minimising your marriage. One of the biggest days of your life. :xWhat a great Dad I am – not.
and I've enough strength of character now, not to worry what people think of me, however unfair that might be.
Again, puffing himself up in false superiority. ‘However unfair that might be’ – presumably he means however unfairly others think of him? Like you H&H I just lost interest! I don’t care!
They will not accept they are the one at fault.
Here speaks the truth. It’s just about the wrong person!
sorry for the overuse of the word bollocks.... need better swear words
bunkum, claptrap, nonsense, rubbish, garbage, baloney, twaddle, drivel, gibberish, hot air, babble – and that’s not even swearing!!
I'm getting bored now.... blah blah blah.....
I agree with Hop, I love this. Very healthy! :D
Your Pa is an ignoranus – stupid and an asshole.
I'm feeling really angry and upset about all this now.
Upset? Define upset. Angry and ….. ? Guilty? Sad? Ashamed? Distressed like you want to yowl like a two-year old?
It feels very kiddified, if that makes any sense... like I want to have a big childish strop.
Little H&H does want exactly that. Maybe even needs it.
However the adult in me, stops this.
Big H&H says ‘no’ - be an adult. Why? What’s the worse that could happen? As long as you don’t act out on others, or act in and swallow your anger, making you ill….how about seeing what it feels like to be little H&H? This ain’t easy though. Bringing up all the emotion from the past. If it feels overwhelming, stop. Seriously.
What I don't like however is where I came from.... I'm not sure what I'm trying to say really, so I'm going to leave it for a bit.....
Please believe me:
Your childhood was icky. Your parents treated you badly.
YOU are not icky. YOU the child was/is a wonderful person. H&H age 1, 2, 3, 4, 5….and so on was lovable, :D vibrant, :D honest, :D open, :D curious, life-affirming being. You weren’t defective, wrong, bad or at fault. Your parents were. Just because you were part of that family doesn’t mean you’re faulty. You survived and continued being lovable, warm, honest…etc.
Why don’t you like where you came from? Feel bad about you the little girl? Why? Was she to blame for how she was treated?
You weren’t a mistake. You were a wonderful gift, born to people who couldn’t accept the gift, who didn’t know or see what a truly joyful gift they had. Their problem, not yours.
"Why do I exist?"
I’m here by the wonderful chance and luck of the universe. I have no reason to be here other than to be here. I exist therefore I am. I am fulfilling being who I am and I can’t be otherwise. That's me :D
Ask yourself why do you not not exist? I ask myself why aren’t I dead and that’s interesting! I survived because: (and I list the reasons). Now I’m really here, I don’t need to know why. I can just enjoy it!
Take it easy H&H. You are a joy. I mean that. And you always were a joy, always. You are and were perfect to the world. You don’t need a reason to exist. :D
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Hop:
I did feel wonderful that I had that one date and so clearly and calmly said NO when I saw red flags. Did the same thing just the other day to a man who asked me out. Hadn't liked his signals.
Wonderful. :DI bet that feels so good. Hope you lose that cold (((((Hopalong))))).
bye for now, gotta go
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Hiya
I hear what you're saying hon ((((((((((((Portia))))))))))). Every baby is a gift... I look at family and friends babies and love them, love holding them, love picking them up when they are crying to comfort them. I was no different. I think that my parents did accept the gift, however they didn't unwrap the packaging and look inside. They didn't appreciate the gift.
My inner child, the little H&H is smiling at the moment. She is feeling better just thinking about this.
Before I started all of this, I used to feel really embarrassed about my family. I'd "pretend" that they were normal. I don't feel so embarrassed now because it's kind of like I've come clean. I've told my H stuff, I've told a few friends stuff.... I'm not pretending so the embarrassment factor has faded. However I don't think I could have done this before getting married.... somehow I had to keep up the pretence for that, to get through it.
Does it matter more what the effect of their abuse was on you? Yes it does.... One good thing about dealing with this now is that I can see what effect the abuse had on me. I drank very heavily at weekends and had lots of boyfriends. I wanted love but was way to afraid to commit. I didn't let anyone get close to me for about 3 years.... Then I met this guy and was so in love with him.... was with him for 3 years. When he finished with me I was so devastated (also no one had finished with me before, the rejection was so intense)...and I didn't have the family back up to catch me as I fell, I didn't have that I thought I was valuable enough to stop me from hitting the bottom. After that I thought I'd missed my chance, that I didn't deserve happiness because I'd balls it up when I got it, so I went out with an alcoholic. Not good. It was probably only when I met my H that I realised how wrong I really had it. I do deserve to be appreciated, to be loved and in return I can appreciate and love him. On one of your earlier posts, you said "Who looked after H&H?".... and the answer was probably me, with the help of friends and books.
Today, I've kind of regressed almost.... I let my H look after me to a certain extent. I don't feel that I have to do everything myself, that I have to deal with everything myself. I am also far more aware of my feelings, but more than that, I'm happy to tell him how I'm feeling and I know he'll listen.
Define upset? Distressed I think is the closest. I don't feel guilty or ashamed. To feel guilty or ashamed would be taking responsibility for something I'm not responsible for. I feel sad, sad for not having healthy parents who were happy for me to grow as a person, however I've given wee H&H a big hug for that.
Of course I still feel angry.... I stand in the shower and imagine what I would say to bio dad (here we go loopy loo!). I tell him that it's all him, he's the one with the problem. I tell him that no one is interested in his blooming twaddle, his continuous drivel that goes on and on and on, neverending about him, no one cares about him, no one gives a jacks ass. My face is so contorted with anger I don't recognise myself.
But I also know I've come a long way since the beginning of this!
H&H xx
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Hi H&H, you sound good. It’s interesting what you say about being embarrassed about your family. I don’t think I was embarrassed about mine. Maybe I was too isolated from other ‘normal’ families, maybe I was around other families in that isolated region who were, frankly, just as weird and whacky. Yep, I think so. I knew these people when I was age 13-16:
There was the farmer and his sister who (he said) lived together as married (no kids). Actually, they seemed pretty normal in some ways (i.e. I thought I liked them). Apart from him feeling me up once. And telling me I was now a ‘woman’ after I’d had a most disappointing and unsuccessful attempt to have sex for the first time. In a village miles away. How did he know? It’s like there were ears and eyes everyway, waiting to ‘catch me out’, or just to watch me. Wow. Ha! At least those eyes weren’t so close that they knew the real truth about the lack of success. Oh P, that’s a bit near the knuckle. I had that secret to myself eh? Sheesh.
There was my friend whose father had an illness which could be transmitted sexually, her father who felt my buttocks once. My friend later married the man who she told me had ‘raped’ her when she was underage.
There was the girl who lived nearby who, walking to the school bus one day, unloaded the bad feelings she had about having had some sort of sexual experience with her older sister. I remember telling her it was okay, whatever.
There was the family opposite her whose father beat up the two sons. Many years later the mother was visited by her third son, given up at birth, and (my mother recently told me) they had sex before he left not to be seen again since. As far as I know.
There was the couple who adopted a 12 year old boy with ‘behaviour’ problems. My mother told me (perhaps it isn’t true?) that the wife liked to have the boy in bed with her in the mornings. Maybe that was innocent and loving. I don’t know.
I’m not embarrassed by any of my various families. Sure I used to make excuses, mainly between various family groups and members. My father used to ask me why my mother and step-father had moved to such a remote place, what did they do all day, as they didn’t work. I had to make up some reason for their choices –to my father and others who asked. I didn’t know the truth as such. Still don’t I suppose. I know it had nothing to with me, even though I’ve been told we moved there because I was “getting into bad company” in the place we’d left. Bad company! It’s a joke. Not embarrassed, but I was both confused and felt responsible for keeping everyone happy, unhurt.
Anyway. I drank heavily and other stuff too. “I do deserve to be appreciated, to be loved and in return I can appreciate and love him.” I’m still working on this H&H. “I don't feel that I have to do everything myself, that I have to deal with everything myself.” And this too! This is a biggie.
“Of course I still feel angry.... I stand in the shower” does everyone do this?? I’ve got so annoyed sometimes in the shower! What is it about showering that brings it all out? “My face is so contorted with anger I don't recognise myself” well at least it’s only your face? My mind was so contorted I didn’t know myself, but that is in the past now, well and truly!
“But I also know I've come a long way since the beginning of this!”
Ditto. And it can only get better now. :D You can sort of tell these things.
((((((H&H)))))) thanks for talking and letting me talk, P
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Hiya all
I don't know if you remember, but a while ago I said about a day when I was 7 and going to my dad's when there was an horrendous fire across the road which killed 3 children I played with.
I remember Dad saying that there was a lot of mental illness in the family, mother and 3 youngest children, however the two eldest boys and the father who worked away alot were ok. I used to play with these kids in the street sometimes when I saw dad for the day. The third eldest was about 12 and was about the same height as me, and the girl, the youngest was about the same age of me, and looked like a three year old.
Looking back, it's quite easy to see that these children were incredibly negleted, they were so small and dirty.....
Anyway.... on dad's postings, he's actually wrote a bit about it, so I thought I would post it here:-
What a terrible situation to have found yourself in Steve.
I used to think I would be competent and capable if I came across an emergency.......that is until it happened.
In 1982 the house opposite caught fire. A 'socially challenged' family where 3 lost their lives. I had known the family, but when asked by the fireman how many children I stammered 3, when in fact there were 4. Shock makes you almost incapable of thought.
You do get desensitized to it, so you can function in a crisis, as the police, members of the armed forces etc. do. And it's called experience of course, of which there is no substitute.
H&H xx
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Good Morning H&H :D, glad you’ve come back to this thread (I had a thought maybe I’d ‘spoiled’ it with those weirdo whacko folks up there! Nasty stuff and altogether human. If it bothered anyone, I’m sorry, I didn’t intend to. Okay, I think I’ve beaten myself up about that enough and I’m letting myself off that hook. Good. 8))
Interesting stuff, yes I remember the fire. So there were 5 children in all?
What do you think about what your Dad’s said about it?
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Good Morning H&H :D, glad you’ve come back to this thread (I had a thought maybe I’d ‘spoiled’ it with those weirdo whacko folks up there! Nasty stuff and altogether human. If it bothered anyone, I’m sorry, I didn’t intend to. Okay, I think I’ve beaten myself up about that enough and I’m letting myself off that hook. Good. 8))
Interesting stuff, yes I remember the fire. So there were 5 children in all?
What do you think about what your Dad’s said about it?
Portia
It didn't bother me.... keep talking Portia hon, and you certainly didn't spoil this thread. In my opinion you didn't need to beat yourself up at all!!
Well for me this is interesting. I'm not bothered by what he has said at all.... it's just about himself again and I can honestly say hand on heart I don't care.
Knowing what I know now, and thinking back, I think he only let me play with them so he could think how good his daughter looked against his neighbours children. Sick huh!
H&H xx
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H & H, hon--hope you don't mind more dissection of your dad:
I used to think I would be competent and capable if I came across an emergency.......that is until it happened.
In 1982 the house opposite caught fire. A 'socially challenged' family where 3 lost their lives. I had known the family, but when asked by the fireman how many children I stammered 3, when in fact there were 4. Shock makes you almost incapable of thought.
Is he saying that he wa responsible for the death of an extra child because he said 3 instead of 4? I doubt it. It's very dramatic-sounding though. It may be more likely that it was irrelevant...people had already died in the fire and he was just one of people around to be asked various questions by firefighters.
More to the point, in his story everything, as usual, comes back to the magnificence of him. Despite the creepily self-deprecating tone of the first paragraph, takes him no time at all to reach the point where the profound [read: irrelevant] details of his moment of shock shove the death of 3 human beings off center stage.
(And natch, by the end, he's comparing himself to heros in the military and police.) Fascinating. A nebulous man standing on his porch mumbles something to a firefighter, and within just a few lines, you start to realize you're supposed to be thinking you're being addressed by a war hero, a mighty cop, a secret agent...but, wait. Wasn't this supposed to be about...STEVE?
Right! Who remembers Steve? Evidently Steve has just been through some terrible experience...hmm, and he wrote to your Dad for comfort...yes, that's it. Poor Steve, he doesn't know who he's dealing with. He and his tragedy just vanished from Ndad's brain. They were just a trigger for more chest-thumping.
You do get desensitized to it, so you can function in a crisis, as the police, members of the armed forces etc. do. And it's called experience of course, of which there is no substitute.
Sorry, but it's disgusting. A friend writes him about a shock or tragedy, and Ndad turns his response into an operatic opportunity to brag about himself once again. Friend's tragedy, oh and let's throw in the death of children...ANYTHING is fuel for the Dance-Around-MEEEEEEE bonfire.
Great, pithy example of the whole core N thing in all its ugliness, imho.
However, there was clearly a recessive gene buiried in him somewhere...because no matter HOW creepy this man is (and boy is he creepy)...in some biological surprise (nature is full of them, don't worry, it's not that odd)---he begat a wonderful, radiant-spirited, kind and smart daughter.
Whom he of course will never appreciate because....she might as well have been across the street.
It's not so much malevolence, I think, as the absence of good.
Unlike YOU, H & H, who are good through and through.
Hugs,
Hopalong
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I can tell you about Steve.... The post was started by another guy, who had the misfortune of finding a body in the river when he was out boating....
Steve replied saying he understood because there was a time when he was out and the police were looking for an 8 year old boy which they found while he was there. You could tell this guy was really traumatised by it.
I am so busy.... I HAVE to work.... must dash xx
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((((((((Hoppy))))))))))
It amazes me your ability to see through all of this. He was just one of the people around to be asked various questions by firefighters.
It's bizarre how he classes getting desensitized as experience and then there's no substitute.... substitute for what????
And this just makes me laugh....
"What a terrible situation to have found yourself in Steve"
The worst thing about this is that he doesn't have a clue.... I can imagine his voice saying this in the distant, not really interested voice that he has... And apparently Steve just found himself in that situation. Not sure what to make of that one.
I'm glad you find him creepy Hoppy.... I find him creepy, but it's nice to hear someone else does as well.
I'm not sure about being good through and through though.... No one is that. Plus with work I'm making so many mistakes... I just can't seem to concentrate!!!!!!!! And it's really frustrating for me, and the poor people who have to work with me.
H&H xx
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He's creeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeepy,
creeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeepy,
crawwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwly!!
And you ARE good through and through. Didn't say perfect, said GOOD!
(((((((((Good H&H)))))))))))
Hops
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Thank you Hoppy... you are a sweetie.
This amused me.... it's another one of his posts and it's called............ (drumroll please)................
Attitude or how you get on with people :lol: :lol:
http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=3488&st=0&p=46270&#entry46270
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Iggggghhhh.
I just went and read his profile on Jessie and it made my skin crawl.
(I"m sure she's a lovely dog, it was the projections.)
"only species that perceives love as a reward"
"most intelligent of all species although it's actually fourth"
"looking butch"
"my mother was a loose woman"
Iggghhh. Just suggests very creepy things to me about his inner landscape and his most primal feelings about women. (Which we already know about from how he treats his daugher, alas...)
((((H & H)))))))
Yikes.
Hopalong
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(((((((((((Hoppy)))))))))))
He wrote Jessie's autobiography when he was probably at his worst, after Jessie had died and suffering from depression. It's funny but "I was born to what I can only assume was a loose woman" is exactly the phrase my friend picked up on, when she looked at me and said "somethings not right there!"
There are so many things in it that I find disturbing, especially as Jessie was a lovely dog.... she was half alsation/half doberman and she was a great big softie.
Ok... things I find disturbing....
Boss, obviously upset was seeing to my needs as best he could, but his own difficulties were only too apparent
That he calls himself boss throughout the whole thing.... that he was trying his best but obviously had his own difficulties.
I cried out, as if in terrible distress, and so forcing his hand. In all my time with him, this was the first I had asked for his help.
I don't like the "forcing his hand".... forcing it to do what.... And the first time Jess had asked for help... blimey, clever dog, could feed itself and take itself for a walk!!!
The only animal I have trouble communicating with is man
She was a dog.... what was she supposed to do.... have an indepth conversation about politics....
Judging from my perspective I think I should be at the top, a point also held by quite a few people
Projection at it's best.... this is exactly what bio dad thinks!
I was born to what I can only assume was a loose woman, who, although a gentle creature with a soft, mainly brown coat, had it away with a big black man. My mother was the type, known as an Alsatian, or German Shepherd. She was taken to a stud kennel, but got out and was mated by a Doberman. German shepherds are intelligent, if a little laid-back, where as the Doberman remains childish, and is full of energy
This is totally made up.... She was got from a rescue centre and he had no clue to her background because the rescue centre didn't know! Amazing that her mother was a loose woman who had it away with a big black man!
And that's only the first page......