Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: tejaspear on January 12, 2006, 02:40:18 AM
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Wasn't sure if this would go appropriately in another thread, so just posting separately in case that's better.
My N mother didn't want to have me but my father made her carry the pregnancy full term. (This he told me when I was 18 and asking questions.) She abandoned me and my brother when she divorced my dad and got engaged to another man. Long story, but basically she was always very cold toward me and even when I went around to get to know her as an adult (at 29 years of age) she lacked any maternal qualities, enjoying telling me stories about myself as a child, (only a couple), such as the one where someone told her they couldn't believe I was her baby because she was so much prettier than me.
Anyhow, her lack of emotion toward me over the following years continued to be a source of sadness and hurt to me. At age 42 I realized that I was literally weeping at least once a year when remembering her and wishing she would love me "like a real mother." Someone told me that a therapist of a person she knew with a very similar family dynamic counseled the person to "divorce" or disown her family as it was not going to get any better, and she would be better off for it, and that really spoke to me.
I disowned my mother. I did that 10 years ago, and she never has written or called me since, which was no surprise to me. It was as I expected. But the wonderful thing is that ever since that year I have not once wept again about it. The pain is gone. As long as I hoped for love from my N mother I was bound to be disappointed. Now that I have divorced her and hold out no hope for her ever truly caring about me, I have felt very freed -- and since then my relationships with others have become healthier, because if they are cruel to me I no longer stick around for more.
I got word from my half-sister that my N mother went into the hospital recently. I did not even ask how she is doing. And I don't feel bad about that.
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Good for you Tej!
I am just going to go out on a limb here. Would there possibly be any way that your other relationships contain an element of replaying this relationship, or lack of, with your mother, in order to 'fix' it?
For example, trying to win over someone to want you, choose you, commit to you?
Plucky
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Hiya Tej
I feel so inspired by your post because you sound strong and positive and also you know you did the right thing.
I stopped contact with my bio dad last year (long story... isn't it always!).... he posted on a website about him disowning me, and I thought, I haven't disowned him as I was still checking on how he was doing etc. He's still occupying a lot of my mental space as well, but at some point I really hope to be where you are.
I look forward to reading more of your posts.
Take care
H&H xx
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Hi Plucky -- about trying to recreate my r-ship with my mother, no, I don't think I do that -- but my life has been complicated by a whole lot more than just my N mother who, after all, was not even around from the age of 8. I had a BPD father, possibly also N -- not sure, who also committed suicide but not until I was an adult. All kinds of fun stuff here, huh? ;) Really I feel best about this last relationship in that I picked someone who was as loving and wonderful as he is -- but for that one fatal flaw, my "picker" is getting much, much better. ;)
H&H -- For me, to disown or divorce my mom, I had to "make it real" by stating it to her. It was just in voicemail, but I knew she would get it. I kept it simple but said stuff like, "As far as I'm concerned I'm not your daughter anymore and you're not my mother. I have yearned for so long to feel loved by you and it never happened, and I refuse to let my heart wait around any longer for the love you are never going to give me. Goodbye. Finally."
Something like that. Good luck whatever you do. Boy, it sure helped me a lot. ;) ;) ;)
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Correction! I wrote,
"-- and since then my relationships with others have become healthier, because if they are cruel to me I no longer stick around for more."
I wrote that without thinking through what I was saying. Fact is, I quit letting people be cruel to me long before I disowned my mother. But I think what I was trying to say is that I am getting better at losing attraction to those who would make me feel I must "wait" for their love (which never comes). And when they display coldness or cruelty, I feel guilt-free about cutting them off if that is what is needed.
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Hi Tejaspear:
Good to meet you! I love your post.
I think this mental divorcing is detrimental for many people's emotional well-being. It's like severing a connection......which is very difficult eh? It must have been tough for you to give up communicating with your bio mom, even though she wasn't communicating much of anything to you (other than stuff that seemed to hurt). Still......you were trying to connect with her......express stuff to her, which ofcourse.......SHE DIDN'T/DOESN'T HEAR! (because she can't stop focussing on herself long enough to even notice her daughter!!) :( :(
I'm sorry you had to go through that and I'm sorry that some people are simply egg donors or sperm donors in this world. They do not have any business having children, as they are too totally selfish and useless to be parents. Good for you for cutting those emotional ties! That's probably the best thing you could possibly do for yourself. The old saying........you can't get blood from a stone........sure fits eh? So good for you for realizing, accepting and doing something about that! For moving on and living your own life!! Divorcing her from it!!!
This is similar to banishing the thoughts of people from our heads or deciding not to think about them any more. The whole idea is to put distance between us and those who have harmed us. I think we will know we have accomplished that, especially, when we no longer ......think....about them, or when a thought does pop into our mind.....and there is no great emotional feeling generated by that thought, or we simply ignor it and go on to something we want to think about.
What gives me hope is that I truly believe we can and do have an effect on how we feel by choosing to think, or not think, about certain stuff. It's a tool we can use. A little shovel we can use to sift through the muck. And with some work and a time......we can clear a path to a clear place....a much more comfortable place.
:D Sela
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I know it was easier for me than most people with N mothers, since she was not a big part of my life most of my life. Though I cried and cried, wanting her, when I was a kid, I realize now how very fortunate I was not to have lived with her the entire time I grew up. Her physical distance on top of emotional distance, and lack of communication with me, made it much easier to divorce her. I really haven't thought about her all that much the past ten years, but lately as I have been learning more and more about the pathology of narcissism the subject of her in my life certainly causes the remembrances!
I let go of another narcissist last night. He was someone I was very enamored of when I first met him, especially because his eyes reminded me of my father's (who was I think an NPD/BPD and who committed suicide in the end). He, this guy, is very grandiose and sooooo spiritual and philanthropic, etc. But the longer I got to know him the more I realized that everything was about HIM. It's another long story, but I finally lost my crush on him when he raged at me cruelly one day for ridiculous reasons. He was never my b/f but we had discussed the possibility many times. Anyhow, he has always said, the year I have known him, that he wants to "always" be my friend -- and he wants me for my work skills (for a big project that he believes will make him very rich and famous and which he has always told me would make me very rich as well).
One reason I bought the book "Malignant Self Love" by Vaknin was to learn more about Narcissists so I could decide how I should deal with this guy. He still had so many plans for me to be a big part of his work, and I felt very ambiguous about it. Last night when he called to set up things for me to get to work on his project I was unresponsive and he became irritated and impatient. I told him I have a lot of other work to do and this wasn't a good time. He got extremely agitated and pretty much dumped me, I think (and hope). Before, I thought maybe I should go ahead and work for him, for the money, etc. Now I realize that I don't want to work that closely with someone like that. I can only see bad things coming of it. I didn't really know the best way to break it off with him and didn't want to make it any worse than it would have to be. Knowing now about Narcissistic Supply my strategy has been to cut off that supply -- i.e., neither to give him praise or admiration nor anything that is "useful" to him, so that he will come to see me as not worth bothering with.
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Hi Bean,
Of course I don't know your situation, but for me the best thing was to make it brief and as a one-way communicaton (i.e., without her there to say anything back). Because I was not trying to start or continue any dialogue -- only to finally END it. If it is what is right for you, my best advice is to be brief, clear and concise. Less is more. I was actually VERY angry when I did it and also told her she could "go to hell" for all I cared. Later I felt bad about that part and wrote her a letter years later saying I still did not want to be a part of her life but that I was sorry for saying I wished her to go to hell and that I wish no harm to her. That felt better. For me, I didn't do it perfectly and had to write that other letter later, but the most important thing was that I did it and then was done with it and was able to go on with my life free of the constant re-runs of impotent tears that accomplished nothing but to make me feel deep hurt.
Best of luck to you!
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Bean, what stands out to me the most is that you said all your siblings have turned against you in the past. Maybe you just need to take a break from them all for a while and see how it settles? I'm not a good one to give advice on dealing with family politics. Having had so little family in my life, it's not something I have had to deal with much at all. (Being abandoned has its advantages, eh? LOL)
Jac -- Thanks for your thoughtful post. I don't know. This relationship with Red Hawk is the first relationship, ever, that I am not coming out of it totally devastated, morose and punishing myself with paralyzing inverted anger (i.e., depression). My best friend of 8 years told me she thought it was the most positive change she has ever seen in me, because in the past I would go through terrible throes of self-blame and self-doubt at the end of relationships. With this one I see the one mistake (or a two-in-one mistake), of continuing the relationship after the initial red flag about the ex, but beyond that I really don't feel unhappy with my own behavior. And in many ways, I have been very happy with his behavior, especially in that we always had open communication, and communicated a lot. Also, there is a long and intense history with him and his ex that I only came to appreciate as time went on and he told me more. (For instance he gave up a job that paid $200,000 a year to try to save his marriage -- i.e., return to Texas since she was not coming to join him out of state as planned -- and then when discovering her first strong clues of unfaithfulness hung on in misery for years, then came the flagrant cheating, then his great rage and suicidal stuff, and has not had a decent paying job now in 5 years since that all started happening. He's a LOT better off today than 6 months ago, but I really think he literally has not had enough time to heal. In a "normal" divorce the year and a half not living at the same address with her would usually be enough, but under the extreme circumstances I can easily see that he probably needs another year or two just to process the past 5 years. I think we were two people meeting the right person at the wrong time.
We had such a beautiful relationship in so many ways. It was the best I ever had. My life has been like that since I was little: started out a total nightmare, and the older I get the better things get, but slowly and in gradations.
Right now I am definitely going through a lot of the anger stage. I am angry with his ex for her meddling in our relationship in the subtle (to him) and not-so-subtle ways (to me). I am angry with him for letting someone who has been so abusive to him make him feel beholden to her, and I am angry with him for not honoring our love enough to completely divorce her -- but like I said, I can see where my mistake was in the beginning, and I also see that he is definitely not finished processing with her. From what I have read on N behavior, I expect she will "do him dirty" again one day, and it irks me no end that he is just sitting there waiting for it. He is so much like me -- and so much like how I used to be.
Oh well. For now, I will just do my best to take things one day at a time...
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Bean, suppose you confine your relationship with sibs only to discussions of perfctly plite topics, like latest movies, and keep in touch through sending cards etc. Would they still cut you out?
Ns use everything they hear about you and everything you tell them against you, so that is probably where BPD idea came from. Your mom will always find ways to tell you that its you. Always. To get her to stop doing that is like trying to plug a broken dam with cotton wool. It can't be done. The only way out is to develop spiritual power that anchors you to who you think you are (as opposed to who she thinks you are) and not give into to her crap no matter how high pitched her pitch gets.
I bought the book "Malignant Self Love"
Looks like the N sold you something you could get for free from manybooks.net. :P
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Vaknin didn't get the money. I bought it from (another N maybe) as a used book from amazon.com for a ridiculously high price (don't ask!). thanks for letting me know about manybooks.net coz my best friend needs a copy too! ;)
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Hi bean,
yes, yes, i DO feel I have been healing all my life -- some years more slowly than others -- but the older I get the better things get, the briefer "bad" relationships last -- 10 minutes or 10 weeks as opposed to years -- and the less "bad" the relationships are. The men I choose are treating me better and better, and the son I raised (and I raised him always remembering I wanted to give him the mother I never had) mostly as a single mom has come out confident, strong, kind, considerate, healthy and with a strong sense of what he wants in life. Just GIVING healthy love to another has forced me to get better too. I can't change how others behave, but I can always work on myself.
But to tell the honest to God truth, I don't believe I could have made it so well without the meditation practice I do along the the help and inspiration of the person who taught me that practice (Prem Rawat). I've been, much with his help, learning to find that love inside me that the N cannot find but with Mr. Rawat's help and techniques I believe even an N would gain much relief. I hesitated to mention this before because it might sound -- oh, I don't know what. You know what I mean. But then I felt I would be holding back important information if I didn't mention it, especially since Rawat (also called Maharaji) has been the main anchor in my life for many, many years. (For more info on his meditation which he calls "Knowledge" and his message, see htto://www.contact-info.net).
But the coolest thing of all about getting healthier and stronger over the years is that now I truly prefer being alone to being in a hurtful relationship. Before, I would cling to the person -- and thus the tremendous pain -- for years! I know that is a lot of the frustration and anger I felt with my recent love, (Red Hawk). He clung to the hurt and pain of his N ex for SO many years, then years non-functioning and suicidal and now who knows how many years clinging to her as a "close friend." He has made a lot of progress, but I am (or was) SO impatient for him to FINISH it and get on with some healthy happy loving with no more strings tied to that past. He's not ready to fly without those strings yet, and no one has a right to try to make him, not even me.
Here's wishing you a GREAT day!!
TP
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typo correction from previous post: http://www.contact-info.net (for info on Maharaji and hjis messaage -- and his help which is by the way free of charge)
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Have you come to more understanding about why you've hesitated to share this "secret weapon?" Is it because it is the one thing you have that you feel gives you the support you need and you're afraid someone will try to belittle it or tear it down? Have you ever doubted its authenticity? Is that perhaps why you never want to see it as less than genuine because its helped you so much?
I know I do this with lots of my "crutches." I'm afraid to tell my SO that I need these resources/people, even if they're far away and I can only communicate with them through the internet, or they only reach me in that way. People have a fear and bias against things they don't understand. I think it's hard for others to understand why we need these external means of support, temporarily or permanently. Most who rely on their familial support structure don't get this necessity. They think it is just so easy, to just "know" and "feel good" and accept that everything will be OK. It really isn't for us. We struggle so much with this.
I can relate to this Bean.... I do this too. Especially what you say about not telling your SO...I haven't told my H about this site, although we have spoke about some of the stuff I've posted on here. It's not that I don't think he would be supportive... he is, but for some reason I'm not ready to risk it, not ready to tell him.
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IMHO, it is truly okay to have a private space and private conversations.
this is just like having a "group friend"--one who helps you and cares about you.
It's not a tawdry secret like certain Internet activities some people do!
It's a good thing. One of the things about healthy boundaries is that even in marriage, people are supposed to retain their separate selves...it's fine to have private spaces where you explore and grow.
Hopalong
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Hi Tejaspear,
I can totally relate to what you are saying.... I admire your genuineness, caring nature, strength, courage and maturity... I have recently cut off contact with my nmum and am going through dealing with life without her... I have two young children and a great husband (he also suffered abuse from his parents). I am now concentrating on moving forward and being a great mother and wife. It must have been hard being a single mum and I do understand what you mean by it being easier being alone than suffering being with an abuser. I left home at 16 and I was alone but I prefered it to being with her. There's a peacefulness about it. I was stuck in the denial stage for many years and I couldn't settle but didn't know why. I have moved through all the stages now but I found the anger stage hard because I had to stop myself losing it at her. But I was glad when it passed.
I am at the point that I don't need her to love or approve of me. Finding out that she is a narc has allowed me to really accept myself. I also feel no more guilt or obligation to have her in my life. I am excited about my new found freedom. I really hope she leaves me alone so I can move on.
Thanks
Jessica :) :)
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Thanks for your heartfelt words, Jessica!
Good luck with your new N-free life!
I'm trying to keep a certain ex-"almost boyfriend" out of my life now by using reverse psychology, i.e., cutting off Narcissistic Supply (giving no admiration, showing no fear and just basically being un-useful to him). He has always talked about he wants us to be "friends for life." There was something he wanted me to do last time he called and I declined to do it and said nothing to feed the N needs. His anger came through very bitingly at the end of the phone call. I'm just not going to get in touch with him anymore and pretty much do the same if he calls me again.
My best friend just realized a month ago that both her mother and estranged husband of ten years are narcissists, and it has explained a lot to her, but now they are both very old, (he much older than her and in and out of the hospital for the past year), and she can't bring herself to abandon them. She started going to a therapist she had seen in the past who is really wonderful, and told her, "I know the only way to deal with an N is to cut them out of your life, but I'm not going to do that. I can't do that when they are so needy." She's been driving 800 miles round trip every two weeks for the past year to succor them -- with her N mother and N husband pulling on her as if on two ends of a taffy pull. Recently her therapist suggested she slowly make changes -- like going there every 3rd week instead of every 2nd week.
I guess what I'm trying to say is, sometimes a milder approach is easier in situations where the person has currently been around a lot. I was so lucky to be able to cut off from my N mother when I had only seen her about 2 times in ten years and only heard from her every year or two -- and that after she herself had cut me off for most of my life since I was eight years old. So, for me it was much easier to "end it" pretty much in one fell swoop. Maybe that is the best way for others, too, I don't know. All I know is that it has been a very, very good thing...!!!!!!!!! ;) ;)
Best wishes to you and your husband and family!
Hugs,
TP
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I feel like mentioning this now and then:
I'm not sure the only answer, ever, with a narcissistic individual is to cut them out of your life.
I think what matters is HOW narcissistic they are. And equally, HOW vulnerable you are to them.
With some, they're not all-the-way, full=blown Narcissistic Personality Disorder.
They may have some, or almost all, of those narcissistic behaviors and characteristics, but not be as dangerous to your mental health as very severe Ns.
Does anybody else struggle to get clarity on that? I mean, whether someone is all-N (as in full-blown NPD) or "degree of N"? I find it hard to sort out.
Teja, I thought this was a wonderful example of how to cope with an N or N-ish person you really do want to get completely out of your life:
he wants us to be "friends for life." There was something he wanted me to do last time he called and I declined to do it and said nothing to feed the N needs. His anger came through very bitingly
I really like the simplicity of how you cut through his gushy (insincere) desire for lifetime friendship. One bit of defiance, and BAM. There's a slice. Very insightful and powerful how precisely you spotted the pattern.
That is very consistent with what I've experienced with an Nhub and several Nbfs. Less so with NMom, as she does struggle to be kind. She's sort of emotionally blank from her damage (and usually totally self-absorbed in what she chatters about), but she does want to be a good Christian and I can see her try hard to tap into that wisdom. Sometimes I've been very moved by her occasional loving gestures. Because I know what an achievement they are, even though they would just seem natural to a mother who had all the emotional equipment for loving.
Just rambling...thanks for listening. (Had a painful phone figh with my daughter last night, which is why I'm thinking about this. We did make it up, right away, so I feel better. But I do experience a kind of emotional agony when I have conflict with her. I think it's because she's been the one place where I always have trusted there would be love and connection, and now in her 20s, it's been strained.)
Hopalong
Hopalong
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Oh Hopalong, I know what you mean about the pain of having conflict with your child. It's a pain that is very hard to bear. I haven't experienced it much or often, but boy, those times I did it just about killed me.
It was funny -- reading about your N mom and how she tries so hard to be a good Christian and all. Sounds VERY much like my ex-b/f's N ex-wife. She is so spiritual, in fact, that this is the excuse he uses not to let go of her.
But I hear what you're saying, that maybe not all N's are best cut off totally. To me the measuring stick would be just how much one needs to cut them off in order to not be vulnerable to further damage. Obviously there are a lot of Ns in this world, and they can't be cut off by everyone, but it's just so hard to have a primary relationship with them.
Red Hawk's (my ex-b/f) N ex-wife has made a great effort to be a good friend to him for the past year or two and even helped him out from time to time. However the fact remains that she has never taken responsibility nor apologized for some of her most damaging actions, which have been really flagrant. And so now here she is, being the oh-so-spiritual (she's even a "healer' by profession!) "good friend," but managed to make sure that her ex did not have a chance with me by "innocently" calling him up at strategic times, etc.
My feeling is that any N I keep as a friend should be a distanced friend, at least in that I will not give that N personal information that could be used to manipulate me. That's hard to do, though. ;(
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Teja,
I think you should definitely stick to your instincts about RedHawk and his ex! They are still all wrapped up in a toxic waltz that will trample anyone who comes into their orbit.
And don't second-guess yourself about the other ex-N either. That "bite" is real. Good for you for witholding the supply.
You're drawing boundaries. Takes practice and it's never perfect. But you sure do sound like you're determinedly moving in the right direction.
Hops
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Thanks so much, Hops. I love your eloquent prose by the way. That one line is so poetic I shall have to cut and paste it somewhere!
You and I also have a lot in common in that we are single women in our 50s. Meeting new men is such a scary thing, knowing what poor judgments I have made in the past, but it does get better even when only slowly.
There is one guy I haven't met in person yet. He is extremely vague when I ask him about what caused his last breakup. I had better find out what it is he is being vague about, huh? He basically just says that he didn't live up to her idealized ideal of what a lover should be, but gave no examples. Maybe I should ask him for an example...
One part of me thinks I should not meet anyone too soon and another part of me thinks I should just jump back on the horse after a fall. In the past I would go for months after each breakup, afraid to meet another man. In a way I think it might be good to meet when I'm feeling so cautious, since my MO has always been to trust too soon and too easily. Any thoughts?
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Off the top of my head, "extreme vagueness" sounds like a red flag.
I've kind of added to my list: openness.
It doesn't mean that everybody had to be a flaming extrovert, but evasiveness might be something to pay attention to. It sounds like a suggestion that dishonesty might be an issue.
Since you asked, hope you don't mind this suggestion: could it be a red flag of your own that your response to his vagueness is to want to hone in and get closer so you can find out more?
Instead of saying to yourself, hmm. No thanks. I think I'll wait for someone who's open and at ease.
I'm saying that only because it sounds SO familiar. I always thought red flags were such a pretty color...
(Another thought: dunno if these are Internet acquaintances--perfectly good way to meet people esp. in middle age---but one of the wisest things I read about the process was this advice: Do not invest a lot of time in an email correspondence. Try to check out simply the basics and see if something feels appealing. Don't spill your guts or share deep intimacies before you've met. (The same book suggests
no more than five or six email exchanges--a few nice paragraphs, not pages--and then if you're both interested, set a coffee date. Daytime, limited time, and no further.) That way you curb the fantasizing until you have a 3-D sense of who this person might be. And above all, everything slooooooowly.
that help?
Hopalong
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Thanks, Hopalong. Yes, I definitely agree on the part of meeting soon. Actually he invited me for coffee or a meal today, but my work schedule today won't allow for making plans. Here's what he said that sounded vague:
"This is hard to communicate, but she wanted me to conform to her vision or desire or need for a certain person. It was not overt pressure and not insistent on her part, but she let me know frequently that I wasn't doing things right somehow. It was hard for me to be such a huge disappointment to her."
What do you think? Is that too vague? Thus far this particular guy is looking pretty healthy in a lot of ways -- and definitely not into "going too fast."
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To me it's vague. No specifics, just kind of amorphously blaming her for being controlling, and saying how he suffered. (Not that I ever got that straightforward myself until about last week, but I think a healthier sign is to just say, we didn't really click, didn't work out, found out we didn't have enough in common....things like that that.)
I know those may sound vague too but I'm pretty bloodhound-nosed about "blaming". I feel much better when someone says, well this person contributed X, and my part in the equation was Y. When you look closely at his statement...it's all her fault. Blaming.
But not flaming red, imho...just fuzzy.
I guess maybe you're right. If other signs seem pleasant and you'd like to have a coffee (that's another thing the book said--wish I could remember the title---DON'T think about having "a relationship" with a new man. Think about having "a cup of coffee or a lunch". IOW, stay strictly in the present and pay attention. Don't futurize. Healthy relationships are built very slowly and in the present.
(I know! I think it was that book I mentioned on another thread, A Fine Romance by Judith Sills.)
Sorry, I'm skipping around. Maybe if you do meet and do like him, then you could pursue asking for some specifics.
Another thought I dredged from some other book was to consider every date "practice"--a chance to interact in a positive way, pay close attention to your intuition (alert to your own overeagerness as well as another's)...etc. That also reduces the tendency to fast-fuse...unhealthily romanticize or attach before you truly know enough about the other person. So it couldn't hurt to meet him unless you feel too vulnerable and raw after RedHawk.
Hopalong
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Thanks, Hops! Good thoughts. I like the idea of thinking of meeting different men as "practice." Surely is a better practice than the kind of "practice" I got with Red Hawk, LOL.
I had decided just before I read your post that I would not ask further questions about his last relationship until and unless I meet him for coffee or whatever and think I would like to see him again. It may be that I will know from other things that it's a no-go anyhow.
I ordered that book "A Fine Romance" from the used book marketplace at Amazon.com and should get it in about a week. Thanks again for that recommendation. I just LOVE the idea and possibilities of having a HEALTHY relationship. Feeling "in love with health," which is a great feeling.
I remember the bad old days, grieving and pining and anguishing over N men in my life, and being almost addicted to the pain (so it seems, when it was so hard to let go!). One thing for sure, I am not addicted to being long-suffering anymore! I think when I was younger the N love interest seemed to be the "be all and end all" and I could not imagine ever loving another. Not so today.
Another book I like is by Barbara De'Angelis, Ph.D., "Are You the Right One for Me?" She has some really good stuff in there about the common mistakes made when picking the wrong person, and things to look and watch for both healthy and unhealthy.
She talks about watching the old relationships in your head "like a movie," and then do a freeze frame at the red flags.
I look back at some of the red flags with Red Hawk and think, "Wow. There was a spot where it would have been so cool if I had just ended it right then and there with total assurance." It was the self-doubt and that part of me "wanting to be fair" that kept me hanging around for more:
He says he will never give up being close friends with his ex-wife? Well, maybe it would be unfair of me to expect otherwise. He said, "If that's going to be a problem for you, you may as well dump me right now." Yes, he said that -- more than a couple of times! I should have just gotten up from my chair right then and there and said, "I can't promise that will not be a problem for me, so I better give you your pink slip right now then" and just walked out the door, gotten in my car and driven away. Now THAT would have been cool. ;)
I like thinking of things that happened with Red Hawk and others that were blaring red flags, and imagining what choices I could have made at those times that would have saved me so much pain and regret.
Patience is so important. I know I can't order a good potentially long-term partner like breakfast at a diner. I must pace myself reasonably and just check, check, check, letting many plates move right on by. One day my plate will come. ;)
Hugs,
TP
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Hello Tejaspear,
This is a bit of a tricky post to make, it was a bit of a surprise to me to see a plug for Mr Prem 'Maharaji' Rawat on this board. Shouldn't have been really in that I used to be a premie and I'm here!
Sorry to be the bearer of The Awful Truth but he is just another of many who got rich out of being a guru. Just reciting his full list of names should help - Balyogeshwar Param Sant Ji went on a bit more if I recall correctly. Guru Maharaj Ji to whom we sang The Lord of the Universe has come to us this day. Asking yourself why the foot kissing? the arti tray swinging? the ashrams, the Agya?
The metamorphasis from Lord of the Universe, bringer of light destroyer of darkness via Maharaji, family man and pilot (just call me the Boss or Lord in private but act normal in public) to the current Prem Rawat, humanitarian and inspirational speaker without ever admitting to being wrong (it is always the stupid premies, the stupid instructors, the stupid organisers who got it wrong) is a testament to Narcissistic lying.
As you said so poignantly
"Wow. There was a spot where it would have been so cool if I had just ended it right then and there with total assurance." It was the self-doubt and that part of me "wanting to be fair" that kept me hanging around for more:
I can so relate to that. And I have a suggestion to make. Why not do an internet search on Maharaji and do a bit of digging. Then you can get some practise on dumping narcissists with cool assurance and lots of style by doing it to your guru.
Jai Sat Chit Anand, tastelessly yours, Lily. :D
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Hi Lily, thanks but been there and done that (freaking about all the rumors, etc. about him). What he offers really works for me and keeps me sane on a daily basis. He is not someone I interact with on a personal level in my life, but rather as a guide from afar, and I never can thank him enough for putting his message and help out there for people like me who really have needed it. Someday if I ever am a part of his personal life, (which is extremely unlikely), then I'll worry about judging him on a personal level. Meanwhile, all the really bad stuff is no better than heresay, because I know too many people who HAVE been very close to him personally for very long periods of time and I know the other side of the story too. I believe he is a force for the Good in this world, but obviously not for everyone.
One thing that is very clear to me is that Maharaji inherited his role at a VERY young age. All the foot kissing and lord of the universe talk was something that he really inherited. I find it INCREDIBLE and beautiful how much he has peeled OFF that stuff. He could easily have gone other ways. Instead, he has pared down his message to its most simply and common denominators, forsaking all the religiosity and such. He started getting rid of that stuff while still a teenager, and now in his late forties, it is incredible to see the transformation. I applaud him very much for this. A lesser man could and would not have done it.
I have also had the most incredible and REAL experiences of love and awakening directly under his influence. Nothing will ever change that.
I'm sorry it didn't work for you, but I really do believe that many rivers lead to the same Ocean. I trust you have found the river that works for you, and if not will find it.
TP
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Hey TP,
Congratulations on your journey. I just wanted you to know I find your posts inspiring and evolved. I'm glad you decided to open up about your meditations. I'm encouraged by your words and I hope you find the peace and happiness we all deserve in life. I just happen to be in the process of learning more about meditation and how it can heal your mind. I want to incorporate meditation and visualization into my spiritual life as a way to gain acceptance about my circumstances, (a family full of Ns), and to develop new methods of shifting negative energies away from me. Can you suggest other articles, websites, or reading materials on meditation (101, for-dummies, that kind of thing)? I'm Christian, is it okay to mix the two concepts, I wonder?
Thanks for sharing,
Tiff
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Hi Tiff,
Thanks for your kind words. The meditation I practice is the only one I have ever practiced. It's worked for me so well that I never sought another, so I can't tell you about all the choices, only mine. The one I do, (which isn't really called meditation so much as "practicing"), is absolutely fine to do whatever religion you are -- and even for those who do not choose to have any religion. (I personally am a Christian.) Anyhow, a link to find out about the practice I do is at http://www.contact-info.net. I have, especially the past 15 years, been practicing for at least one hour a day.
Best wishes on your journey!
TP
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"I'm sorry it didn't work for you, but I really do believe that many rivers lead to the same Ocean."
Hey, thanks for caring. I'm just glad to be out though, I did it for a long time. It's still called Knowledge? that was abbreviated from Knowledge of God.
It is four techniques of what is commonly called meditation. From the Hindu Yoga tradition. You can find the techniques in plenty of yoga books. In the first one you put your fingers on your eyes plus one on your forehead, the second in your ears, the third is following your breath, and the fourth is putting your tongue back. Before they were abbreviated to one two three and four they were light, music, holy name and nectar....and were supposed to connect you with God, the lack of which was suggested by Maharaji and the Mahatmas to be the reason you felt disconnected.
I suppose I've shocked you a bit by writing so explicitly about the techniques, they are supposed to be kept secret aren't they? The reason given for this used to be that they didn't work properly unless they came with the Grace of Maharaji.
And that's why I've spelled it out. This is meditation plus a guru. Not just meditation.
I could say a bit in response to what you say about Mr Rawat, but you would find it disrespectful of him, and I do respect your sincerity and would not want you to feel I was disrespectful of you which I fear you may considering the high esteem you hold him in.
As I said, thanks for caring, and I meant it. All too often premies are very quick to shun those who leave without any consideration of how they may be feeling.
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No shock value there, Lily. I posted quite a bit on the website where haters of Maharaji get together to bash and shock. Doesn't mean a thing to me anymore. I would post and defend Maharaji so well that the haters on that site started limiting my ability to post, for fear they were losing ground in their arguments. But that's in the past. I'm not bothering with it anymore. Like Maharaji says, if you like it, fine -- and if you don't like it, that's fine too.
Like I said, he saved my life -- my WILL TO LIVE -- and I have much gratitude for that. I have "been around" on and off since 1972 when I received Knowledge, went through years of not practicing and not speaking to anyone who even knew about him for six years. It was my Christian experiences that brought me back to practicing Knowledge. It has made me a much happier person and gives me what I need.
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As long as there's no KoolAid or child abuse involved...
(I personally am appalled by fundamentalism or "special" mystical secrets that are only available to the elect who are in a "special" sect. Yet, I know people who have embraced the most rigid fundamentalist evangelical community and I am delighted for them. Because before that they were self-destructive drug addicts or living on the street or such. So Teja, if this community or belief system or sense of special mysteries and a guru has brought you the will to live...that's a good thing.)
You're living. Doesn't much matter what anyone thinks of the belief system that keeps you going. You're a nontoxic human being, and you are surviving.
Hopalong
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Thanks, Hops.
No, it's not about special mysteries as much as it is about learning the VALUE of the techniques before practicing them so that they will be utilized. Anyone can have the techniques, and they are given for free. Please keep in mind that Lily has a bone to pick for whatever reason and is doing her best to debunk. I'm not even going to bother defending it anymore because I know that people will find what they are seeking -- whether they are seeking the good or the bad.
But yes, it works for me, and thanks for saying nice things about me. ;)
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Well hey, I could say a lot nicer than "nontoxic"!
You're very smart, eager to do good and see good, loving to your kids, quick to share insights, and willing to reveal yourself and your own struggles and learning, which strengthens others.
(Me anyway.)
thanks for being who you are.
Hopalong
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Thanks, Hopalong. You have been a great help to me as well. Wonderfully supportive at a time that I have been really needing that!!! I go through hours a day now without pain from the situation with Red Hawk and his N -- but still other hours that are just hard. And I'll never forget the first time I saw you post, when you did that wonderful post to Red Hawk, (which he may have never read). It really made me feel so SUPPORTED......!!!!!!!!!!! ;) So, thank you for being you too...!!!!
Hugs,
TP
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Lily, you might find the thread on Emotional Vampires interesting.
Like I said, I don't have much in the way of personal experience with Maharaji, and I am aware of those who attribute to him traits of an N in his personal life. For all I know, he may be an N. And if that is the case, I definitely would not want to be in a primary interpersonal relationship with him.
Anyhow, in that other thread we are talking about how some people who have been hurtful in their interpersonal relationships have also made great and positive changes for larger masses of people (such as Eleanor Roosevelt and others -- maybe Martin Luther King, Jr. too, but I can't remember as well now the downside of what has been revealed about him).
For N personalities that do have an effect on large numbers of people, I'm very appreciative when that work is truly for the Good. Obviously there have been many who have the N personality that have been terribly destructive -- such as Hitler, Jim Jones and others too current to mention. ;)