Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: solayads on January 16, 2006, 12:58:41 AM
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Hello Everyone:
Came across an interesting book entitled " Emotional Vampires: Dealing with People Who Drain You Dry". (by Albert J. Bernstein)
In hindsight. when I consider the serious trouble that I had recently with two Narcissistic individuals, I see from the information contained in this book, that I missed so many warning signs.
The following personality disorders (as many of us have already come into contact with) were characterized as people who are Emotional Vampires:
-the Antisocial Types (Lovable Rogues)
-the Histrionic Types: (Show Business, theatrical vampires)
-the Narcissistic Types: (Big Egos: Small Everywhere Else)
-the Obsessive-Compulsive Types: (Too Much of a Good Thing)
-the Paranoid Types: (Seeing Things That Others Can't)
I'm have not completed the book yet; but the author provides very clear, concise descriptions from the start, of how the different "vampires" listed above use the same hypnotic techniques to draw their victims in. He explains how all of the illnesses listed above also parallel each other in many ways.
Interestingly, the danger signs of "hypnosis" by these Emotional Vampires are easier to spot in the responses of the subject (you and I) than in the actions of the hypnotist. Here is what to look for to avoid getting taken in:
Deviating from Standard Procedure
Be careful if you find yourself veering sharply from your usual way of doing things, especially in response to a person you don't know very well. Stop right then and ask yourself - why. Listen very closely to your answer.
Thinking in Superlatives
Distorted perceptions usually involve superlatives. If you find yourself thinking that someone is radically different from other, people, quickly ask yourself - why. Remember, worst and most annoying are superlatives also.
Instant Rapport
Getting to know and appreciate another person involves time and effort. Be careful when rapport seems to be developing too quickly -- no matter how good the process feels. Instant understanding is usually the result of someone recognizing how you would really like to be seen and pretending to see you that way.
Seeing the Person or Situation as Special
Defining an interaction as a special case that doesn't follow the normal rules is a clear sign that an Emotional Vampire is turning on the predatory charm. Emotional vampires excel at getting you to notice them, not what they are doing. Pay attention!
Lack of Concern with Objective Information
The two most important sources of objective information about another person are the details of that person's history and the opinions of other people. If for some reason you find yourself avoiding those sources, or thnking that they don't apply -- watch out.
Confusion
Hazy understanding of the reasons for your own reactions, coupled with unusual certainty, is a pretty clear sign that somebody has been messing with your mind.
If you discover that you have been hypnotized, forget trying to convince Emotional Vampires that they were not playing straight with you. They will laugh and recite back your conversations chapter and verse to show that they made no promises or, if they did, how it was somebody else's fault that they broke them. Just don't let them take any more from you.
When Emotional Vampires get caught, they start throwing out alternate realities (lying). Since these folks cannot stand the daylight, rip open the curtains and let the daylight in. Don't try to hide the fact that you were hypnotized/fooled.
Let me know your thoughts on this information.
Solayads
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Hiya Solayads
"Emotional Vampires"... that is two interesting words. I like the way they look at it though... to let in the daylight, I can really relate to that because that is how it feels for me.
I do feel confused about the red flags though. I understand that to look at your own responses is a good way to check how you feel if you like... check that you are happy with the interaction with the other person. The thing that confuses me is when do you decide they are red flags? When we first meet someone our "first impressions" of them are usually inaccurate... because we all project the self we would like people to see, not who we are.
H&H xx
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Solayads, excellent! Especially the part about not trying to convince them, and their throwing ut alternative realities.
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I don't know, H&H. I have found first impressions to be dead-on. My problem is that I will see people for just how they are, and then there is a part of me that says, "Oh, just give this person a chance. Don't be too judgmental."
This happened with the last N I got emotionally involved with -- and also with the ex-b/f who is so emotionally dependent on his N ex-wife.
With the N, I noticed how egoistic and "haughty" he was. Had I truly trusted my instincts I would have let our first meeting be our last.
With the ex-b/f who is still emotionally entangled with his N ex-wife, I perceived at first meeting that he seemed to have little to offer (as if lacking in personal substantive motivation for anything), and morose and clingy. He acted like a hound dog, all sad that I was leaving after a couple of hours -- though it was our first meeting ever. I "dumped" him immediately after that, but then thought, "Oh, I should give him a chance."
I have this constant argument between in instincts from first impressions, which could be viewed as "cold," and the "wanna be fair" side of me that lays a guilt trip on me, saying I am being too closed, harsh or cold.
I'm glad we're talking about this. I definitely need to start honoring my own very strong first impressions without apologizing myself out of it...! ;)
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WOW. That list of "types" had both my ex's on it. Jeeesh. A friend was reading this book, but I hadn't had a chance to discuss it with her yet. Thanks for the synopsis.
Red flags? Everywhere, with both these guys. Denying myself and my gut? All the time......until I woke up and decided to love myself instead.
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Teja, you been in my head?
That was my EXACT pattern for 20+ years with men.
A year ago I ended my last Nbf relationship. He was overwhelmingly haughty, but swarmed me with instant fusion on our first date...all those flags. Silly beagle, I walked right into it, but I look back and truly do believe he was my LAST N. Or last deeply distubed man, at any rate.
This has been exciting and I want to share it: in the last month I have said NO after two first dates. The first guy was pompous, curt to a very sweet waitress (she was invisible), and presented himself as a victim. I knew I didnt want another date. He emailed asking for another and I replied very courteously that I had enjoyed meeting him (it's true, he was interesting) and it was a pleasant lunch, but I honestly didn't feel that sense of "fit" for me. But I thanked him sincerely for driving to meet me, wished him a peaceful winter, beautiful spring, etc. (I was kind and gentle, iow.) He wrote back a BLAST of accusation, blaming, accusation. Jekyll and Hyde. Saved myself a whole bad relationship! I held firm and that was that.
Same thing, much shorter, with another man. He took me for tea. First thing he talked about was how he wants babies (he's 59 and said there was nothing inappropriate about that at all, he just hadn't found an interested 35 y/o. And how he hates and was victimized by his Ex.) I decided right away. So he called a few weeks later asking me to do something and I said no, just too busy to schedule anything at all.
I can't believe it. It really did feel all right. I figure I'm saving them some anguish too so in a way it's probably a kind thing. They were both pissed, but I really feel for the first time in my life I'm catching on to this thing... I really am not hostile. But I'm catching on that just because a man wants something, I don't have to go against my instincts to please him. It has to be reciprocal or I don't want any part of it.
Hopalong
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I've totally given up with 'trusting my first impression'- I don't listen to it anyway, and often the very things I have keyed into as attractive are already warnings ( eg. I love very talented, intelligent men...but I also know how often that comes at an unbalanced price )
If you discover that you have been hypnotized, forget trying to convince Emotional Vampires that they were not playing straight with you. They will laugh and recite back your conversations chapter and verse to show that they made no promises or, if they did, how it was somebody else's fault that they broke them. Just don't let them take any more from you.
This is perfectly true.
One of the hardest things about having thought you were in a relationship then found you just existed as one of the props to someone's acting out is that it's impossible to challenge them, to salvage anything, to redress the imbalance, to recover your sense of self ( for a while )
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I don't remember who said it, but someone I respected once said, "People will always tell you who they are, if you will just listen." I've often been amazed at the things people have told me about themselves -- only to respond, either inwardly or outwardly, with disbelief. 'Oh, you're not that bad," or (inside saying to myself), "S/he's just really modest and self-demeaning and doesn't mean a word of it." Only to look back later (and wiser) and find out they were just what they said they were.
Of course, more often it is the case that people don't come right out and say it verbally, but they will show it in some way.
For instance, this N man I met a year ago (and soon became quite infatuated with) was always talking about all the horrible women he had been with in his past. Then I noticed that, except for one notable exception -- the woman he was hoping to snare -- he had terrible, terrible things to say about EVERYONE in his life, both present and past. One of the reasons I feel I want to cut this person out of my life pretty much totally is that I cannot help but know he talks the same way about me to others. He "told" me that he does by doing it to everyone else.
And sometimes when a new person in my life is always saying poor things about themselves, my instinct to nurture and mother them comes out so much that I am virtually ignoring everything he is telling me about himself, and inwardly or outwardly saying, "Oh, it's going to be all right. You're better than that. You are too hard on yourself." I think it's good to be supporting and nurturing to friends and lovers, but when a relationship is new a little bit goes a long way. I need to spend a whole lot more time listening and a whole lot less time responding, if you know what I mean.
After the dramas of my last couple of relationships (and most of them all together), I am now really looking FORWARD to "taking it slow" and just really getting to know a person before taking a stance outwardly or inwardly. I'm looking forward to slow. Whew. That's a quantum leap for me, I'll tell ya! ;)
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I am glad we're talking about first impressions and trusting intuition and self-protection and the goodness of turning away from the negative.
Here's a little current test case I'd love input on. An Internet fellow has expressed interest, I haven't responded yet. His profile indicates nothing weird. His photo shows an attractive man. However, I noticed only a trace of humor in his writing, and his face was completely unsmiling. Almost to the point of oddness...because most people soften their expression in some way when a photo's being taken. At the same time, he's quite handsome.
Yet...we have values (political) in common and he lives near enough that I could meet him quite easily.
Here's my question: do y'all think I'm reading something real, that means we'd be incompatible? Or could there be some other reason a person would post such an empty-looking photo? (He did mention that he dresses just a hair better than his students...so appearances seem not important to him. And in a way I do like that in a person, I get deeply tired of people's focus on appearances. I'm not concerned about wardrobe, I'm just wondering if I'm reading his face right...)
Anyway, just a sort of rambling wondering. In the interests of practice, I suppose I could meet him for coffee and just pay the sort of close attention Teja's talking about. I think that's valuable.
Hopalong
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Hi Hoppy,
Sure, it's worth giving him a chance for coffee. A lot of people are very nervous in front of a camera and really don't have the expressions on their faces they would have in real life. Same thing with writing profiles -- nerves could cause the writing to be devoid of humor (or even just the mood he was in at the time he wrote it). Let us know how it goes!
I just talked on the phone to my new interest for the first time this evening. He sounds very nice, and I enjoyed the conversation. We both ended up telling stories about things that have happened in our lives, and it was comfortable and interesting. We have a "date" to talk again in a few days.
Cheers,
TP
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I don't think that the list posted is talking about first impressions, but rather this nagging feeling that we feel in the pit of our stomach that something is wrong with this person or situation, without being able to pin point why. Like how would I ever explain to the world that the mom who spent so much money on my education is not loving in worldly terms?
Scott Peck really disucsses this issue beautifully. To quote him, albeit from my memory, he says that one of the first things evil inspires in normal human beings is confusion. Usually the "good acts" are purposely engineered to create confusion about judgment of bad ones. He too suggests that we trust this persistent feeling of confusion as a red flag, and I think he is spot on.
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That's a good point, Marta!
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Marta,,
That is spot on. My exNbf was very confusing. This guy is true NPD I think.
Anyway, I remember when he casually dropped a mention of a charity he participated in, I felt a sense of shock. In my gut, it was inconsistent with who I experienced him to be...core self-absorbed. But at the time I fell all over him being delighted and approving. In hindsight I realize he picked the one charity (shopping for food for the needy with a group of wealthy high status other businessmen) that would be about impression-polishing.
Confuuuuuusing.
Still, I want to give him credit for the impulse. It's just...icky....when helping comes through the Nfilter.
Hopalong
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A common theme among several N's I have known is a strong "spiritual identity." One helps homeless a lot, but in time what I saw was happening was that he has used them for Narcissistic Supply, putting himself in a role as saviour (and he really does seem to have megalomania). Another changed her name to indicate her own spiritual identity and does healing work (Red Hawk's ex) and has a whole "spiritual rap" while continuing in her blatantly destructive and narcissistic interrelations with others. My own N mother, after abandoning me and my brother, became a social worker. (I always felt the irony there bitterly -- that she was so proud of helping others while ignoring her own children, etc.)
All of them have done some good works, but when you look at the interpersonal relationships outside that, there has been so much destruction... :( It is really strange to me, this thing of loving "universally" while being so destructive personally. I wonder if John Lennon was like that too? He did so much that inspired me in his songs, yet he abandoned his own son Julian so coldly, totally cutting him off when he divorced his wife. My N mother abandoned her children, RH's N ex abandoned her children too. Yet these same people have a very strong spiritual identity. My N mother is very proud of all the times she has prayed for me when she wasn't there for me. (She converted to Catholicism after abandoning us.)
It's one thing I didn't really see in Vaknin's book -- about the N folks with this spiritual thing they have going. I'm surprised by that. Anyone know any books that address this? I find it very confusing -- but hopeful. It is almost as if the "good" in the person finds an outlet that is just not possible through personal relationships, and some good is done for those they don't get involved with personally... Any thoughts?
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Hmmm. Last night I watched a 2-hour program on Eleanor Roosevelt.
Bottom line, this women stirred up more social justice in one lifetime that almost anybody other than Gandhi or MLKingJr.
However...her own children felt neglected and bitter because their mother's life was so swarming with public Good Works, yet she didn't connect with them, make them feel important or central.
Yet again...Eleanor Roosevelt is responsible for the United Nations' Declaration of Human Rights, which has had a huge impact on millions of lives.
So was she an N? Dunno.
Maybe if the good work happens, even if there are N motivations on the part of the doers, or some of the doers...maybe in the big picture, it doesn't matter.
We need the good works more than we need to judge the doers. Let the good works pile up and don't worry about who's taking credit for them.
But personally, it does grate to see Ns use it for Supply. But maybe if the hungry get fed by an N, what matters more is the full belly.
I don't know, really. But the Roosevelt story really was amazing. Would we have preferred she lived a smaller life and had happy voice-full kids? How do we weight that against the Declaration?
Hopalong
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It see it pretty much the same way. Actually there seem to be many examples of folks who have done great works for masses of human beings but were inept or even hurtful in their personal primary relationships. I am certainly grateful to them for the good changes they have made.
My take on it is this: if they can do good for the world that's great. Meanwhile people who are susceptible to being hurt by them on a personal level will need to make boundaries, recover, and sometimes just cut them off.
It's kind of nice in a way to realize that some people, even though unable to give love to those they might obviously should give it to can have a good effect on a scale that helps a lot of people they never met.
It kind of reminds me to hate the disease (such as N or codependence), not the person. After all, there are plenty of N folk in history who did things that effected masses of people in very destructive ways.
As someone who has been too vulnerable to N's and codependents of N's in my personal life, I know I'm someone who needs to have a boundary for myself to keep an arm's distance from such people, that is, avoid having close personal relationships with them, even when what they are doing may very well help others -- for my own sanity and self-protection.
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Hear, hear. That's clarity.
Hops
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SImply because Eleanor's children felt neglected doesn't mean that she was an N. She may just not have had motherly instinct, or may be an abused child herself, or may have gotten so caught up in issues larger than herself that she neglecged the little ones. Even Gandhi's eldest son felt very neglected, turned against his father, visited hookers, and died of STD. Having rewad his autobiography, I am very certain that Gandhi was not an N.
The way I understand it, narcissism is always coupled with a decided destructive tendency and enjoyment from twisted acts. Take how Ns operate within the confines of their microcosm, their homes. They may give gifts, but not the ones their kids want or need. How can they operate any differently at larger, social level, actually engaging in acts which are much needed by the poor rather than the ones they think are needed?
Marta
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Thanks for your thoughts, Marta!
Yes, I realized after posting that that I was erring to characterize all those examples as N. And it is true, no doubt at all, that those people were treated poorly by their own parents, etc. -- but then of course the same is true for an N (that they have had a childhood trauma, but which was possibly or even probably worse than most).
I have seen in myself and in others a desire, need -- even demand -- that our heroes, whether they be political, social or whatever, be exemplary not only in the role they play or played that makes them a hero, but also in all the other areas of their lives. I'm saying maybe this is unrealistic. Maybe MOST people who climb to fame or celebrity for their good works are not "all that" in their personal lives. Maybe how they interrelate to their children and spouses are even commonly flawed in a way that is hurtful to the children and spouses. Or maybe they have other qualities that some feel are inconsistent with their "somewhat holy" celebrity.
I'm saying that it may be unrealistic to expect people to be so "black and white" -- the bad guys and the good guys. I'm saying that even people who did wonderfully great things for masses of people have some black spots, and most of the time. One can hear complaints about Mother Teresa and Lady Di too (though Di obviously being the less saintly of the two, she accomplished much good).
I hear what you are saying that a characteristic of the N personality disorder it to engage in twisted acts they find pleasing in being destructive to others, but couldn't it be that some Narcissists overcome that or suppress that enough in their lives to achieve great works as well?
I'm grappling with this because I know two Ns who both obviously have the disease and whose acts and words have been torturesome and destructive to others. Both of these Ns have a VERY strong "spiritual identity," and both of them have -- literally -- helped people in some ways. (One has provided shelter to many people and also provides counseling -- some of which I have heard and can tell is good. He was after all a preacher for some years. The other does healing work and someone who worked with her swears that the healing work she did actually did produce results for many people.) These same two people are people I CANNOT personally tolerate in my own life, because rather than being one of the recipients of their largesse or healing works, I am someone who they want something from. And both have the potential, should I let them into my life as far as they would choose to go, of literally destroying me -- if I could tolerate being destroyed.
In other words, there is zero question in my mind that both of these two people are N's. They both fit more than the minimum number of criteria.
But do I really have to think of their lives as a total waste or being totally bad? Since they ARE helping some people? And might it not also be possible that there HAVE been a few N's in history that actually did more good for the masses than harm to the unfortunate few that were in their immediate lives?
(You may not be surprised to learn that my best friend has oftened colored me as a "damned Pollyanna.")
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Hello Tejaspear:
What brought me to this board was my wretched experience with two "N" preachers (husband & wife). I can truthfully say that they wrecked more havoc on the lives than helped them. They, too, consider themselves to be spiritual people as they ride around in their cars, soliticit exhorbitant amounts of money from members of the church, purchase several houses, open businesses--all on the financial backs of other people.
I've learned that spirituality moves an individual to examine whether one's motives are pure. This "checking" of oneself based on the healthy motives enables us to exercise qualities that are healing, supportive, and encouraging to other humans -- rather than practicing oppressive, destructive, deceitful, hateful things.
When we honestly assess our motives behind our actions, it usually will force us to humble ourselves..... we will not be "top dog" in the world. We would have to forget about being "front and center stage" in the eyes of everyone else.
I have found that this is one of the main causes of discord with NPD's. They cannot stand taking a back set to anyone or anything --- even if a person is dying.
Their objective is ONLY to be in the public's eye because they desire all the praise and honor---which they feel entitled to. Never mind the accomplishments of others. N's cancel out everyone else accomplishments, dreams, goals just to herald their own.
There are people in the world who do wonderful things for fellow humans.....but you may never read about it in paper or see their face in the news. And you know what? They're okay with that. They look for no credit in return nor do they feel entitled to drain or use people. They help others because in their spirit, they know it is the right thing to do.
That is the difference between "N's" and ordinary people. End of story.....
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Teja:
And might it not also be possible that there HAVE been a few N's in history that actually did more good for the masses than harm to the unfortunate few that were in their immediate lives?
1. I can imgine an N being a good actor, a good rockstar, but I just don't believe that someone totally lacking in empathy can ever make a good social worker.
2. To really excel at anything, you have to have a certain spirituality within you, a tendency to devote yourself to something larger than yourself, which Ns simply lack. Hence I can't really think of very many examples where an N really did something truly spectacular.
3. You can't really evaluate the impact Ns have had on the world through their own lenses. My mom certainly thinks of herself as a very good mother, and for good many decades, she convinced me too.
4. I don't think every act that Ns engage in is pure evil. That simply wouldn't wash, now would it?
5. One must be very, very careful in evaluating impact of an N spiritual guru on oneself, as real effects of N destructiveness are felt only after one has been with them for a certain period of time. But I have seen many examples of people totally transformed through following even an N guru. I don't attribute this to the influence of the guru, but to the group which gathers around him.
6. Evaluating life of an N as worthy or unworthy is a really complex metaphysical question. Sometimes even lying or a placebo helps people. I personally don't use the criteria of actual impact one has had to judge worthiness of one's existence. There are so many creators who died without achieving fame or having had great impact on the world during their lifetime. So at that point their life would be unworthy and afterwards, when they become famous, they'd be worthy? I feel that human beings should be evaluated based on their character, and that is where Ns never cut the mark.
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Thanks for what you have shared, Solayads and Marta!
A lot of very good points. This N I am talking about by the way has not been a preacher for many years, but continues with the self-identity as a preacher. Not having had him as my preacher, and not having viewed his life except through his telling of it, now that you mention it I would not be surprised if what you say is true about N preachers creating havoc on all the lives they touch.
Most definitely, without the millions and millions of people who do genuine kindnesses every day this world would be a totally different one.
In my recent unfortuntate experience of becoming committed to the codependent of an ex-wife N, I found myself wishing I could love her almost as much as he does; that somehow that would make me feel better. I can only be repulsed by how she treated him for so many years.
I think it's my own ego or feelings of humiliation at being dumped for the likes of an unapologetic and tyrannical N that makes me wish I could see lots of good in her. I mean, what does that say about ME that he would give me up for someone so awful, awful, awful?! He knows what she did to him and he knows she's a narcissist. He's the one who told ME she was an N. It just feels so awful to have the person I THOUGHT loved me choose such an unattractive situation over me. i guess that is why I wish I could believe him that she is truly spiritual. I don't know. I'm still feeling so hurt and betrayed..............!!!! ;(
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I mean, what does that say about ME that he would give me up for someone so awful, awful, awful?!
Nothing really. Ways of the heart are quite mysterious. Napolean ruled the world but one woman he really wanted shamelessly cheated on him.
Rather than believing that he has some issues, you want to believe that she is better than you and therefore he is justified in leavign you, eh? :P The only thing it says about you, IMHO, is that you were probably raised by an N and hence you'd rather give the benefit of doubt to others over yourself.
Take care, Marta
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tejas,
I can really identify with that. My ex became a guidance counselor, and as her illness is getting worse, she is trying to get certified to be a licensed counselor. I can't remember where I read it, but it said a lot of Ns become therapists. It allows them to feel better than others by helping them with their problems.
You also see Munchausen by Proxy in a lot of Ns. Where someone deliberately hurts someone in order to save them. For example firemen who set fires in order to be the hero that puts them out or doctors who make people sicker in order to be the only one who can find the cure.
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Oooo, reminds me of that scene in OMEN -- where the guy surreptitiously causes the woman to fall off the bridge into the water -- so that he can rescue her and thereby gain her trust and gratitude.
Yes, interesting about the psychologists. I read somewhere a long time ago that something like half of all psychologists get into the field mostly because they are trying to figure out their own abnormalities. My own uncle, (brother of my N mother), became a psychologist. He went back and forth between being a Preacher, Psychologist and Psychiatric Patient. I cut him off finally when he was being abusive to his mother, my grandmother -- and my grandmother refused to kick him out "because he's my son." I couldn't bear to watch it and told her that if he was staying I would leave. He stayed and I left. He stole all her money and she died in the way she most feared -- without money for a decent nursing home, indigent and alone. I found it very hard to cut him out of my life because I felt so sorry for him that ALL the other relatives (besides his mother) had cut him off. I was such a bleeding heart. But then when I had my own child I KNEW I did not want my child to have to have this man's influence in his life. By protecting my son, I learned to protect myself more.
Is there an epidemic of N folk, or is it just us children of N's that find them so numerous in our landscapes?
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Is there an epidemic of N folk, or is it just us children of N's that find them so numerous in our landscapes?
I think, as with anything, the more you become aware of something, the more you see it. Before I knew about NPD, I never really thought about it. Now that I think about it, I have seen newspaper articles and TV reports and etc. all over the place.
Plus our society fosters N. Society has created a culture where the Ns get ahead and win. Look at popular culture, shows like The Apprentice, any pop singer you choose. They make themselves know by making themselves bigger than life at the expense of others. Look in the work place. Is it the hard workers or manual laborers who make it? Or is it the people that promote themselves? They called the 80s the "Me Generation", but this generation blows that away.
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No kidding! I anxiously await the pendulum swing back in the other direction! ;)
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My own uncle, (brother of my N mother), became a psychologist. He went back and forth between being a Preacher, Psychologist and Psychiatric Patient
Whew......scary stuff, but not surprising when it comes to N's. Their mindset is so self-centered that it creates a breeding ground for mental illness.
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Heh. I call that side of my family "The Addams Family." ;)