Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Plucky on January 20, 2006, 01:38:36 PM
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For some months now I have turning over and over the decision to divorce ny husband. We have 2 small children and I also know that in business he is ruthless. Two factors which make me reluctant to start. Every day I flip flop several times.
Part of the problem is that I have no idea what is normal, since I have never seen a healthy love relationship up close. I have only my imagination to judge how bad it is. This morning we overslept, and I woke up obviously sicker from a cold and stressed because I had 20 minutes to do an hour's worth of getting ready. In my mind, a normal husband would say something sympathetic about how I was feeling (I'm coughing, slept badly, dragging) or at least ask about it. My H said nothing. In my mind, a normal husband would offer to help me get the kids, breakfast, lunch, backpacks ready....my H announced he was going to take a shower, although he had also just announced he was working from home so he didn't really need to do that. At moments like this, I feel I'd be better off without him. Am I just reacting too strongly? Expecting too much?
Plucky
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Hiya Plucky. Coincidentally my H is in the shower while I'm typing this. Does he yell at me when I say I have to shower in the evening, after I've been at home all day? And he's been at work? Nope. He let's me choose what I do, me him (both to an extent). If one of us ill, the other one does more, considers the ill one's needs - asks what help/chores they want the other to do. Mutual consideration, respect. A reciprocal relationship. That's to aim for, but nobody's perfect and we sure ain't! :D Very glad to see you posting this Plucky. Hope you get lots of replies. You will from me! that's all for now, gotta go. You trust yourself! take care, P
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((((((((((((((((((Plucky))))))))))))))))))))
Sorry you're sick with a cold and for all of your struggling. It's not nice at all.
One thing.....do you ask?
When I was young and better looking ( :D), I used to think my H "should know" what to do....how to help...what to offer.....what I need.....etc.
Now......I'm not in that mode (and I can be ugly!! :x). I try harder to ask. "Please......would you?....I need help?........would you mind?........I'm too tired/sick/ugly/grumpy/etc to do ___________ and I'd really appreciate if you would.....can you?
I have learned that it's frustrating and can be depressing to exprect my H to guess what I want or need and it's been a real challenge for me to learn to ask. But I'm getting better at that.
Maybe you're already done this? Or maybe it will hurt more if he says "no" or ignors what you ask?
Hope you feel better real soon Plucky.
Sending you great steaming bowls of cyber-chicken soup.
Sela
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Hey Plucky,
It's the most painful decision imaginable. Especially with young kids.
I would be hugely hurt and resentful in that same scene. (Was. Now divorced.)
I only have two questions (forgive me if you've already explained all this in the past):
Have you been to counseling together? If not, that would be urgent, imho.
Have you told him out loud what you need? In what sort of way? In the situation you describe, unbelievable as this may seem...some people's spouses literally go deaf and dumb and do not ask the appropriate considerate, affection-engendering types of questions (such as, you're not feeling well and I'm working at home today, so what can I do for you?). But sometimes it's that they're in a kind of overwhelmed-by-life stupor or they're depressed...not necessarily acting out passive-aggressive disregard for their mate.
The only reason I mention it is that a husband who is seriously unaware of how self-absorbed his behavior is, but who would be horrified at the idea of divorce, might take a wakeup call about this kind of thing seriously. Some couples do battle back from the brink. (But it would take counseling.)
I know I would have resented it terribly. But I don't know how far you and he have gone (in actual spoken work together) to try to repair your relationship. Has it been a silent emotional struggle on your part....or is the trouble is out there on the table between you and he's deliberately blowing it off?
(((((((((((((Plucky))))))))))))))
Hopalong
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Hi everyone and thank you for listening. usually I don't feel this kind of thing is urgent enough to warrant posting but I just feel stuck. I cannot progress. I need some clear thinking. Gloves off, everybody!
Nope. He let's me choose what I do, me him (both to an extent).
hi P (Portia? Piggy? an new P?) This is a hard one for me. Generally he does not tell me what to do at all. But my actions are determined by what he does not do. Since we have small children, there are many tasks, practically around the clock that need attention. Since he does not seem to notice or take responsibility for them, they fall to me. So I basically spend 100% of my time doing things I have to do, and then collapsing onto the bed, from which I will have to rise early to tend to our youngest, because my H never hears him calling. Never.
So from his point of view, which he has indeed expressed, I am always dictating what he does and he hardly has any time to pursue his own interests. Which of course he still cultivates. Me, I can hardly remember what my interests were at one time. Of course his interests include sports, music, which involves spending money and time, and computer games. All solitary pursuits, not including his children or, and this never crossed his mind, his wife. Do I sound angry? I hate being a nag but that is the only time he listens.
One thing.....do you ask?
Oh yes. I used to ask nicely and give him a choice. He always chose not to do it, or at the very least, to put it off. Then, I started to bypass any polite way of speaking to him, and go directly to giving orders, sarcasm, and bitchiness. This worked very well, but then I had to be angry all the time. Now I just explain in very elemental terms why it needs to be done and why it needs to be done now. I don't even feel any anger any more, I just know that I cannot count on him knowing why the baby has to be fed now, instead of 2 hours from now, I have to explain the consequences in terms he will relate to: "He'll get too hungry, little kids have faster metabolisms than you do, and 2 hours is a very long time for them. So he will start to cry and scream, and you won't be able to hear your game anyway. Then he will wake up early and I have to leave so you'll have to get up and feed him." This seems to work, although sometimes he acts as if I am condescending.
So he does do lots of things I ask for, but in the way a bad minimum wage employee would - no initiative, no memory, no understanding, no willingness, no helpful attitude. And each time my disdain for him grows. In the recent past, this was anger but now I generally just feel ickiness.
Thanks for the soup! Yummy!
Well, if this were an isolated incident, I would suggest you might be reacting too strongly to use it as a reason for getting a divorce but even as an isolated incident, I think you are well within your rights to feel hurt. Somehow, I think it is not an isolated incident. It probably sums up in one episode a lot of what is going on in your marriage?
Hi Sugarre,
Correct. This is a slice of life for me. If my H were home all day, it would be thing after thing just like this all day long. But then I think, if I get divorced, I won't even have the reluctant help I do have! However, I think my spirit will be a lot lighter!
I know for a fact that my H is completely different in other contexts. At his job, he uses a kind tone of voice we never hear him use at home. For people working for him, he speaks so much more kindly than to his small boys! He is so good at being considerate at work, so conscientious, so thoughtful. They love him there.
At home, he cannot remember what his children like to eat, what their schedules are or what their fave colors are. But he can memorise the entire sports schedule for the season, all the matches at different times, time zones, etc, stats, you name it.
[I just went off to moderate a dispute between my kids. I told the oldest one that he had inflicted a boo-boo on the spirit of the youngest and that he did not put a bandaid on it by showing concern. I said I didn't want him to grow up to be someone who didn't care about other people's feelings. He replied, "But Daddy is growing up to be that kind of person." (They think that Daddy is just the biggest kid in the house. Hmmm......) Anyway, I would not have believed it...What timing.]
And, I stayed for my kids but you also can leave for your kids.
Well, as usual, the nuggets of wisdom are mind-blowing!
And my H has a drinking problem too! not so pronounced now but I wonder once he is living alone?????? I used to enforce a drinking limit with him, but now I just let him do whatever. As soon as he really figured out I was not going to say anything about his drinking, he did stabilise at a certain amount. As far as I know.
Have you been to counseling together?
Thanks Hoppy,
We went for several months about a year ago, as my condition for not seeking a divorce right away. It made a small difference but it was more of a band-aid. Even though we identified major problems and simple things to work on, he still would never change anything really. He claims he cannot remember. But underlying it all, and he has told me this more than once, he thinks he is just fine the way he is. In every respect.
Finally, after I realised he was cutting, I convinced him to go to a T alone and this seems to have led toward him accepting that our relationship was over. I need for him to be looked after so I don't have to deal with cutting, drinking, whatever when the time comes to really do it.
Over years I have talked and yelled, and begged, and explained, and waited, and tried to do more, and be happy with less. I have tried to shut down my needs and wants and just be a robot looking after everyone else. I've tried to seek outlets in reading to sublimate my need for adult contact and communication. Nothing works too well, and I feel like I'm walking dead...just waiting to finish my work and die. That last little spark of life is finally clicking in and my children are very perceptive. I might be trying to act as if things are normal but they know better.
Hoping I'm still
Plucky
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It is exhausting taking care of everyone and while you are at it trying to figure out what you are doing. It is exhausting. I'm sure you can handle the physical demands of the kids. You are a tough lady. Although, it seems to be the mental stuff that is tormenting.
I can totally relate to a lot of what you are saying. The mental torment is the worst of it it seems. Is today the day? Or can I stand this another few years? 2 years? 5 years? Ten maybe? No....today.
Sometimes I feel I stay only because H would be harder to be divorced from than married to. Hang in there, you will know. Mostly, I hope (pray in my heart) constantly for peace. Just peace. The rest I can handle. And I know I will know what to do when the right time comes. And in the meantime, protect yourself. Detach, a little. You probably won't change him. But don't let him change you.
I am starting to stand up to H just recently and although he doesn't like it and pulls out every behavior he can think of to pull me off center, I WILL stand my ground. And inch by inch, gain back myself and my self respect.
No, he doesn't help with the kids. Ever. All 6 of them. He has probably changed maybe 20 diapers all together. I, too, stay for the kids. But I am SOOO worried that they will see this sick game we play trying to be a family. I can see some of them as voiceless. Although I try to keep that from being the way they are, they still have to deal with this N H who is just a big child. I stay to keep as much of his torment from reaching them as possible.
For now.
Just hope for peace of mind and heart and some sort of guidance or sign or anything.....whatever works for you.
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Hi Plucky,
I'm sorry to hear you're struggling emotionally, and you are in my thoughts and prayers. When I'm agonizing over decisions I use time-tested mantras and cliches to help me through confusing times. Because I never really received motherwit or other little life lessons from my grandmothers, aunts and mother, I began to cling to tried and true laws and -isms in difficult times. And lately, I remind myself:
that A tree is known by the fruit it bears, translation:
"If it walks and talks and acts like he's incompetent for husband-hood, then he probably IS a duck!! (my own) :o
to Trust your instincts, they generally don't lie,
and that Doubt means Don't.
I hope you find some encouragement in that. I hate to know that such a thoughtful, kind, long-suffering person is hurting so. (((((((((Plucky))))))))) and best of luck whatever your decision. Listen to Plucky's heart and remember, your kids will probably find suprising security and esteem in having an emotionally available, satisfied, mother rather than a depressed, exhausted, and resentful one (kids tend to be practically psychic in picking this up in their parents). Best wishes to you.
Tiffany
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((PLUCKY))
So sorry. I wish I had some good advice to give.
Just know that you deserve better and that you have tried and tried to make it work.
Best wishes.
mia
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Just hope for peace of mind and heart and some sort of guidance or sign or anything.....whatever works for you.
Thank you Surrounded. Especially for stepping up to soothe me when your own situation sounds totally vomit-provoking. Your man sounds like such a jerk and you have 6.....I am in total awe of you!
I feel that the statement my son made was a sign. Just as I was finally writing about it to you, my friends with whom I can discuss it all, he comes up with that gem. And in the process reminds me in his innocent way that to them, Daddy is one of the kids.
My H even argued with me whether the queen in the most powerful figure on chess! Come on!
I bought a book today about telling kids about divorce. One small step for me, one great step for the divorce process.
Plucky
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Thank you Tiffany,
I was having trouble hearing my inner voice. My inner voice was saying, leave. No, it's not that bad. Well actually, it is pretty bad. No stay, it's going to be too hard. It's partly your fault anyway....etc. I was exhausted trying to hear a clear message. Now I am starting to feel a little clearer.
One thing that helped me along was hearing people with horrible childhood experiences talk about the wondeful relationships they have now. Thank you for that glimpse into your world. Of course I am jealous. But the main thing I got out of it was that what I have is so far from what is possible that I am really settling at a low point. So thank you for that.
Plucky
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The only reason I mention it is that a husband who is seriously unaware of how self-absorbed his behavior is, but who would be horrified at the idea of divorce, might take a wakeup call about this kind of thing seriously. Some couples do battle back from the brink.
Hi Hoppy,
my husband would rather break up than change. I hoped for ages he would open up, see the light, etc. He now says that he cares for me but the way he cares for me is not enough for me. His way is to go to work and some home on time. That is a good thing. But I would also like a person who talks and listens to me, who touches me now and then, who spontaneously notices that I need help, am not feeling well, or got my hair done, at least sometimes, and who makes eye contact and responds audibly when I talk or ask a question.
Right now when I say something to him, I have to say "did you hear me?" because he normally says nothing and does not look at me. Couple this with his unacknowledged hearing loss and for me it was maddening but now I just force his answer and move on.
I'm grateful to have a place to blab on.
Plucky
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Hi Plucky,
First of all, how is this not urgent? You are thiniing about a divorce, and you are sick! Don't be so apologetic in talking about yourself!
While men do happen to do weird things sometimes, the little voice in your heart also tells you whether he has crossed the line or not. I am all the way with Sugarre, its not this one thing alone. He won't even TALK to you. NO, that is NOT normal in a healthy relationship.
So he does do lots of things I ask for, but in the way a bad minimum wage employee would -
This is terrible. Why not insist on some hired help for the household?
I also agree with Sela, you have to ask for what you need. FOr this, you have to know what your needs are. Why not ask him tomorrow to help out with house chores as you are sick? THen you'd have taken this one step farther and the answers will become clearer and clearer in your mind.
If he is ruthless in business, he'll probably be ruthless in divorce settlement, he's already given you an inkling of that. However, courts don't run according to his likes and dislikes. There are laws. It means that you may have to put up a fight, unfortunately.
If the basis of this marriage is you being subservient, then why not become more assertive and see where it goes? BTW, why is music a solitary activity, unless he chose to make it so?
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((((Plucky))))
This is such a hard situation for you. I know how you feel, my ex-husband was a really nice man (not N) and when I was thinking of divorce I was thinking all the kinds of things you are thinking now. I have been divorced fom him for over a year now and although I am having huge problems with the exN idiot sperm donor, I am over all a lot happier.
It sounds insane but to be honest, having no help at all is a LOT easier than having unwilling help, or non-existant help. I find I am a lot calmer even if I am busier because everything is down to me. I don't harbour any resentment towards someone else, because there is no one else and this does seem infinitely better than when I was with either my exhubby or my exN. Everything is on my terms and I am getting to like that more and more. I feel I am finding out who I am after so long of trying to be what others moulded me in to.
Yes, it may well be hard for a while. Your children will be happy if you are happy. I told my children (now 5 and 3, plus baby) as much as I felt was appropriate to their ages and always made time to listen to their worries and they have coped fantastically well with it all. The two girls see their father twice a week and we still get on well. There have been hard times when things got on top of me, but over all I am better for having made the break. I think it is because I have finally done what was best for me. THink of yourself first and make yourself happy... :)
Take care, I hope it is okay. You are definitely still Plucky!
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Sounds to me like counseling for just a few months really might be abandoning ship...I wish he hadn't quit on you.
All those things you describe seem so much like communication problems, they truly do.
He says he cares for you...but you're exhausted and angry. Same time, you do want him to spontaneously recognize what you need. (You're right, it should be obvious. But I recall hearing/reading so many people say that this--wanting "mind reading"-- is where so many marriages get derailed...in not being able to communicate clearly and with a cooperative spirit.)
Makes me so sad to think that your spirit is crushed. I know it can heal.
And especially with young kids, running everything (remember what trouble you have with perfectionism, dear Plucky), can run you into the earth.
I wonder...could counseling for your own sake on the subject of perfectionism (regardless of what you ultimately decide about perfectionism)...be a good step for you to take?
I have thought back a thousand times about whether or not I should have stayed married to my child's Dad until she was 18 (I left him when she was six). There is no question but that she was deeply scarred by our divorce. She cried herself to sleep every night for six months...and at 25, she's still not healed.
But at the time, I felt that my own spirit was breaking. So I still can't think of what other way I could have found. (We did marriage counseling too, briefly. But when the counselors asked him to have an alcoholism evaluation, since I said he had a problem and he said he didn't, he refused. And that pretty much did it. The last straw was when he was cruel to my D one night--wouldn't say goodnight to her in order to hurt ME--and let her cry herself to sleep. The next day I told him it was over.)
But if he had not had that moment of being cruel to her, I don't know...
(((((((((((((((((((((Plucky)))))))))))))))))))))))
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Sorry, I meant this:
on the subject of perfectionism (regardless of what you ultimately decide about the marriage)...be a good step
Hugs,
Hopalong
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Hiya Plucky, so glad you’re writing all this.
You deserve to talk about yourself. You have a right to TALK. And be listened to.
Yeah that P was me. Just a quickie then because I was soooo glad you posted. Really glad!
I think, maybe, possibly….your H has turned you into his mother. Either you’re his mother in his mind, or (maybe and), he’s manipulated you through his actions into actually behaving like his mother. So he can repeat all that stuff – probably being rebellious, isolating himself in the home etc etc.
HE IS SUCH A CHILD. He’s emotionally how old? I don’t know. 6? 12? 16?
His sense of personal responsibility at home is zero. He behaves like a (wounded) recalcitrant child.
Okay, he does have problems, he has lots of issues. But that is not your problem.
Your first responsibility is to yourself and your kids. And you have to look after yourself to care for your kids. You ain’t his mom.
I don’t know if you should divorce or not. I think if you could live apart from him for a day, a week, a month – to just get some breathing space for yourself, to be able to concentrate on you and your kids without having to consider him all the time … it would be great. Is that at all possible? Could he physically leave for a while? Would he? It doesn’t have to be divorce or nothing. A break from each other, or temporary separation – whatever you want to call it.
I don’t know what’s going on at work with him, but it sounds as though he’s getting some of his needs met there. I guess he gets attention, recognition, status, a sense of worth etc from work.
What do you get for yourself and where does it come from?
I get the sense you have no time to think about yourself. And maybe you feel selfish about thinking about yourself. Being self-ish for some of the time is necessary, not an optional extra. Nothing wrong with it.
I sense that what you need very much is time to think about yourself, what you need, what you want – without having to consider where your H fits in.
This is a great place to do just that. :D To keep thinking and talking about you! It’s a gift you can give yourself. And no guilt about it either! The opposite – thinking is darn hard work and you can praise yourself for doing it.You are doing good for yourself by posting this thread. Excellent :D
You don’t have to make a decision right now, you don’t have to make any decisions unless you want to. You’re free to vent, ponder, ask, consider, change your mind as you wish. No deadlines but the ones you want to set. pppp..Portia 8)
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Hiya ((((((((((Plucky)))))))))):
I feel honoured that you trust us enough to post all of this stuff that is tormenting you. Thankyou for that. I bet you will counter that you are the grateful one but honestly......I just feel you have come such a long way since arriving here and have given us a gift........and I truly want to thank you.
And each time my disdain for him grows. In the recent past, this was anger but now I generally just feel ickiness.
Icky isn't any fun either, is it? In the above I see two very, very, very detrimental statements:
1. "...my disdain for him grows."
and 2. "I..... feel ickiness".
These two things alone are enough for me to bluntly suggest that you are not in a marriage......you are in a bad relationship that is causing you harm.
I've been in shoes similar to yours Plucky. I remember the confusion and the frustration and the many, many thoughts and feelings that ALSO drained my spirit (along with doing ALL of the household work and being the SOLE care giver to my children.......my ex never changed a diaper, never pushed a stroller, never took a child to the park or anywhere for that matter, never dressed, fed or cuddled or played with his children, ever....nothing. He layed on the couch (when he was home), watched sports, got drunk, and criticised whatever III was doing. Neither did he answer me when I spoke/or made eye contact/or behaved in any way kindly toward me.......for years!!! He would do nothing unless I coaxed and begged or nagged and bitched and howled and even then....it was when heeeeeeeeee was ready......ifffffffffff heeeeeeeeeeeee felt like it). It was easier to just do everything myself. There is much more that I could put here but I won't. I just want you to know that you're not alone. And that you are notttttttt over-reacting!!
You're not alone Plucky and thanks for reaching out here......for trusting.....because you will help others to do the same thing....maybe. You're doing a good thing for you and for others and for me too by posting and sharing and trusting. I think that's a great sign that you are regaining part of yourself.....if you feel like part has been lost?? ... because you're not just plodding along like a robot....doing what you have to do and keeping your feelings inside.........trying to bury them........seething. Expressing your thoughts and feelings here is such a good thing, Plucky! It's waaaaaaaay better than trying to push it all down or keep it all in....and just keep going. I want to encourage you to keep posting.
What helped me decide? I went to Alanon. I learned how to live with my H without allowing him to effect my feelings---by choosing what to think and how to react (as someone else said......"don't let him change you"). I had changed because of his behaviour and Alanon helped me to change back.....quite a bit. After awhile...I felt pretty good. I was much happier. A much better parent too....more energy.....able to laugh from my gut....I enjoyed stuff...my kids......made a little space for myself....started taking care of me too....in little ways. Then one day, I was sitting at the table, in the middle of an Alanon meeting and this thought crossed my mind:
"I don't want to be sitting here when I'm 64. I can do this and it's much better than it was, but I don't want to be doing this when I'm ready to retire or even 10......15 years from now....when my kids are older."
I found a counsellor (where I didn't have to pay) because I knew I needed support. An objective person to help me sort out my choices and help me see stuff clearly in order to make a realistic decision. I told her "I need help to separate from my husband" and she helped me.
Keep posting Plucky and find someone in the real world to talk to......if you possibly can. Someone not emotionally involved. Someone who will help you do whatever you want to do.
It sounds insane but to be honest, having no help at all is a LOT easier than having unwilling help, or non-existant help.
It was like this for me too, as Cadbury wrote. When I finally decided and we separated......I felt such relief. Like a massive weight had been taken off my shoulders. I was financially better off because he was drinking everything he brought home.....which still wasn't great but at least I had stability. I did allllllll of the work but at least no one was telling me I was doing it wrong. And there was peace in my home.
The tension was gone and that was sooo wonderful. The best! The tension that permeated the air was gone!
I spent a year trying to figure out what I had done wrong and feeling like a failure. And I came to the conclusion that it wasn't alllllllllll me. I'm not so bad. I did a lot of things right. And I was much better off not living with him. It was hard to grieve and manage and work and parent but not as hard as living in chaos and disruption.....and not as hard as constantly protecting myself by choosing every thought and reaction....and trying to live my own life in the same habitat as someone who was seriously messed up.
My exH held a job and seemed like a real nice guy to the rest of the world. He treated other people politely and used a pleasant or kind tone with them. It was me he treated with disdain (while my disdain for him grew against my own wishes). I was so much better off when he was gone......I can hardly put it into words.
I don't know if any of this will help you Plucky. I hope so. And thankyou for posting because you've helped me to trust a little more too. To find the courage to press "post" rather than delete. Keep posting for you.
Sela
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PS:
I should also mention that ending our relationship was also good for my ex. I think he was forced to live with himself........face some of himself.......whatever. He cleaned up his act substantially and became a much better father to our kids than I think he would ever have been had we stayed together. It took time for this to evolve but at least it did...to some extent.
Sela
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Plucky,
I do agree with what a lot of people are saying...I think I hesitate because I was tormented about my daughter's pain afterward. But at that time (I was 36) I felt if I stayed I'd be throwing my life away.
I am so glad you're posting about the misery of it all....just getting it OUT will help clear the way for good thinking.
It's horrible how the issues of who is responsible for what in running a household and taking care of kids tends to split marriages apart. Sounds like there are such rigid sex roles in your family. He goes off to work and his work is done and he won't help at home, where the factory whistle never blows.
That kind of taking another person's labor for granted will poison anything. It's profoundly disrespectful. Who made you the maid? Staying home with the kids does NOT make one a maid, laundress, or governess.
Remember those stories where a wife/mother would go on strike? Just let the dishes go unwashed, laundry go undone, all those beyond-your-fair-share household duties go undone?
((((Plucky))))
Hopalong
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Plucky,
There isn't much more to be said than what has already been said by the others. I completely understand your frustration with having your h be just another child in the household to manage and care for and who doesn't pick up his toys. I lived with it for 22 years and would have continued to do so forever more so as not to be alone. But he made the choice to leave and I can now say that it was the best thing that ever could have happened for both me and the children.
I had become numb to the lack of affection and attention, irresponsibility, childish behaviors and a marriage that barely existed. I did everything except work outside the home and bring home a paycheck. All he had to do was show up for dinner--and that was all he did. He was never involved in one activity for his kids, but was more than willing to be president of the Rotary Club. It was always about him.
I agree with what others have said about it being hard to have to run the house on your own, but you know you are already doing that and it's much easier knowing you are the only one rather than hoping your partner will step up and help out. My xh was great at starting projects and never finishing them--so I always had some kind of mess started somewhere. I don't have to deal with that BS anymore and everything is my choice.
One thing I would strongly recommend that you do is start working on giving yourself a break. Let go of the need for everything to be perfect and running yourself into the ground trying to accomplish that. Spend some relaxed, fun time with your children, then fix them mac and cheese from a box for dinner. They will remember the time you spent with them--not the healthy, complete meals you spent hours preparing. Perhaps some counselling would be good for you to help with this--and ultimately with the decision as to how to proceed with your marriage and how to talk to the children about it.
I have such a lovely bf now and am in a wonderfully loving, fun and passionate relationship. I am finally in a love relationship with an adult who treats me with mutual respect and admiration. He's still a guy who forgets things I tell him, wants to watch football on Sunday afternoon and doesn't want to spend hours talking about his feelings, but in the areas that really count, he's there for me and I can depend on him. So as scary a concept as being alone can be, it doesn't have to last forever and you can rebound in a much happier place.
I wish you well as you try to work this out. If you do decide to consider divorce, get a good attorney right away. It eventually all comes down to the money and if you and the children can be well provided for. That is one decision I have never regretted.
Brigid
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(((((((((((Plucky))))))))))))
I'm afraid I don't have any concrete advice for you, having not been in your situation. However as being the child of your situation, and my parents did divorce, I can tell you it is a good thing to do if you feel it is the thing that will bring you the most happiness. I do believe a happy mummy is a better mummy.
Through reading all your post, this is the thing that really struck me....
[I would also like a person who talks and listens to me, who touches me now and then, who spontaneously notices that I need help, am not feeling well, or got my hair done, at least sometimes, and who makes eye contact and responds audibly when I talk or ask a question.
What you are asking for is perfectly reasonable and it's what another reasonable human being should be able to provide.
I feel its very hard for you, because whatever you decide, the road ahead will be hard, long and rocky, but I do believe we only get one shot at life and we have a lot of power as people to create our own happiness.
Thinking of you Plucky....
Take care
H&H xx
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Thank you everyone for your attention and support. I really appreciate it more than my trite phrases can express. Right now I am pressed for time as I have a couple of hours to tackle my many tasks. Somehow I have given the impression that I'm keeping a perfect home, doing everything to a T...far from it. But I'd like to be!
Plucky
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Plucky, I could add to the voices here that remember similar feelings of frustration, anger and confusion. But instead I will skip my "story" and get to the point: Please consider the following (no need to answer, really....just things to contemplate...things that got me "unstuck"):
What do you want for your life?
Is this it?
Do you feel you deserve what you want?
Are you worthy of it (in your OWN opinion)?
Is your tendency to take care of others instead of yourself, and if so, are you being taken advantage of (ok, not by your kids, but by someone who is supposed to be your "help mate"?)
What would life be like for you if you really believed you deserved better than what you feel now?
What would your life FEEL like if you had the life you wanted?
What things would have to be different for you to have the life you want and deserve?
Bless you, Plucky, I am sure the answers will show themselves to you in due time. Sending love and light.
PS: taking notes here on the great mother moment you had with your kids.... You are a great mom, you must know that!
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If the basis of this marriage is you being subservient, then why not become more assertive and see where it goes? BTW, why is music a solitary activity, unless he chose to make it so?
Thank you Marta,
Actually, I'm not subservient, but I don't like the nag I have become. He does things. yes, but it's clear he does them only to shut me up (he accidentally said so one time) and there is no initiative. I'm not asking for my mind to be read, but how many times does a person need to be told that the children have to brush their teeth in the morning? Why can't he remember that if he has the children for several hours that they need to eat? For me it is a passive-aggressive way to make me do everything I possibly can myself to avoid dealing with the hassle he presents. And it works a lot. I just wonder why he doesn't care that he has made me hate him. Maybe because he hates himself.
His music consists of researching and buying new CDs and reading music mags. I don't have time for that. Most fo his music I don't like, but now and then I like something. Then when I look at the cover and see how much he paid, I just get mad. So I try to ignore him.
As for losing the reluctant help with the family that you already feel you have in him, I would suggest that the amount of energy it takes to get him engaged in the process would conservatively be cut in half by not having him as the third child.
Sugarre and Cadbury, I think you are right. When he travels, I feel a weight lift off me and can be more playful with the children. Of course the dishes pile up, but then we just go out for pizza!
He says he cares for you...but you're exhausted and angry. Same time, you do want him to spontaneously recognize what you need. (You're right, it should be obvious. But I recall hearing/reading so many people say that this--wanting "mind reading"-- is where so many marriages get derailed...in not being able to communicate clearly and with a cooperative spirit.)
Hi Hoppy,
yes communication is the problem, apparently. That has been uncovered several times already. However, my H is very uncomfortable with seemingly any form of communication. If I say anything involving emotion, he is so threatened that he has to shut down for hours, or days. Anything I mention takes him hours to digest. We were doing a thing where he would say he needed time to think about it. Then I would wait for him to respond. And wait and wait. He never did. If I asked about it, he wasn't ready yet. So nothing, NOTHING, ever got resolved. Well, there was the odd exception, of which there might be 3 over 8 years.
I am the type who likes to talk her feelings out. But he would not, could not let me do that. I would have been content with eye contact and an occasional "oh". This was beyond him. His reaction made me furious - looking away, leaving the room in the middle of my sentences, no verbal response at all. I'm getting all worked up again just thinking about it. Finally I gave up completely and now the only time we speak is when we need to work something out logistically. Oddly enough, we get along better, except when I'm irate about the house work. Well after this time, he went to a T and came home with 'exercises' from the T to strengthen our communication. I was supposed to select one of the case histories in his book and identify which was us. He had selected the one with emotional outburst and shutdown. I picked the one where the relationship was dead and said I was not going to try anything to bring it back. I think that was finally the point where he accpeted that I was serious.
Spend some relaxed, fun time with your children, then fix them mac and cheese from a box for dinner. They will remember the time you spent with them--not the healthy, complete meals you spent hours preparing. Perhaps some counselling would be good for you to help with this--and ultimately with the decision as to how to proceed with your marriage and how to talk to the children about it.
Brigid you are so right. I do see the food thing as the one thing I do right. But I have been thinking that I need to streamline it. One problem is that my children have food allergies, so I do have to shop at some specialty stores and avoid the pre-prepared meals. But there are some things I can do.
My H starts projects too, and is very sloppy about them . I guess I can be hard to live with. I don't say anything any more, but he knows what I think and it bothers him. I should not be so critical - he should just do the projects as a hooby and to involve the children, not to actually produce anything usable. But I do resent all the extra messes he leaves about.
I do believe a happy mummy is a better mummy.
Thanks H&H. You are sooooo right.
Mum, good questions. Overall I am a prgamatic person who likes to plan rather than dream. So in order to really really want something, I have to feel it is possible. I am trying to imagine what is possible. Much of it at this stage is the absence of things - things associated with my H. But I also see the good things going as well (he takes out the garbage, etc), and some bad things coming as a result, such as financial problems, being stretched even more thin, emotional problems with my children, etc. So if I can think my way through to a solution, I'll know what I want exactly. In general, I want a happy life. I want to be able to make and keep friends and be honest. I want to pursue my interests freely. I want to nurture my children happily. I cannot imagine ever wanting to be in a relationship again, so no wishes in that area. I just want to have a compost pile, a big dog, and lots of smiles with my lovely kids.
Plucky
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I know what you mean about the kids seeing the truth. My oldest son (age 7) said recently....as he puts his feet up and sits in front of the TV, that "he was the boys and he was gonna sit there and his older sisters needed to bring him his lunch."
My H only laughed. Not even embarrassed or anything normal. But I sure was embarrassed, and mad. At my H, yes, but at myself too. Mostly myself. What am I doing? Sometimes I see my kids just waiting for the other shoe to drop. They know.
I tried to leave about two years ago and went to my parents house with them. Within about an hour I realized as bad as he was for me, they were worse. So I went back to him. Of course, I had to apologize for what HE did and then listen to him tell me I had no right confusing the kids like that.
I am ticked at my folks because I married him to get away from them. I just didn't realize at the time what a messed up person he was. I married him cause I thought they would approve of him. Wrong, wrong, wrong.....
Here's what drives me crazy, does it you,Plucky? Obviously, these guys (our Hs) NEED help--bad (emotionally). I have tried to stand by him for so many years thinking he will grow up, or something, I guess. Even got him into therapy about 8 years ago while he was having turmoil within his family of origin. He just lied to the therapist and used him to validate himself. Nothing wrong with him--ya know. It's everybody else's fault he's screwed up. He even told the T that our relationship was wonderful. For him, maybe.
But the therapist actually asked for me to come in and verify this, and me, being the voiceless pleaser, just said it was H who needed help right now and I would stand by him. I'll bet that therapist wanted to get his hands on me and shake me.......he knew. Just my husband is too blind and selfish.
Now I feel bad for taking time for myself and how I feel. Feels like I am in the last round of a boxing match. I don't even like boxing, really, but I've been dancing around the ring ducking, and dodging, and throwing feeble punches here and there. But I am saving my energy for the final KO. :P
OOOH...it feels like an episode of Survivor--all this maneuvering.
Plucky, I will be thinking of you and wishing you the best.
P.S. Do you get ill when you know he is coming home? I used to bad, now I'm just numb to it. One thing is for sure, these feelings you feel are not normal, nor is your husband acting in a healthy way. It's not black and white considering leaving, but take the steps you need to and keep your eyes open. Yes, they do things nice here and there and then you feel like maybe this will be ok.....but pros and cons-wise....I'm sure the cons outweigh the pros.
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I should also mention that ending our relationship was also good for my ex.
Hi Sela,
I wonder what will become of my H after the divorce. At one point I thought he would just drink himself to death, or catch something from a prostitute. But now I think he will be fine. All his pathetic posturing was just for control.
Thanks for all your thoughts. Your entire post is very helpful.
I love you guys.
Plucky
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Hey Miz Plucky,
We love you BACK.
I hope H had ravioli from a can for dinner.
(You can give that to the kiddies too and they'll think it's fun. Hope you never make beds either and toss cleanunfolded laundry on everybody's beds. And of course no more vacuuming... and have you quit brushing your teeth yet?)
You will find out over time how he turns out after the divorce. He will grieve, survive, and if he has the maturity, he will grow. But if he does or does not...that is HIS responsibility.
There is no question that you will grow (you already are...leagues). And I have a feeling you'll create a more peaceful divorce than most people are able to. It'll take time...walking through the trauma of it, all the bloody steps, but I think you will both have more peace once it's over.
(((((Plucky))))))))
Hops
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Yes, they do things nice here and there and then you feel like maybe this will be ok...
Hi Surrounded,
you really get it. How I don't know, it doesn't sound like your hunka love ever has done anything right!
Every time my H does something nice, I feel guilty that I am planning to leave. I am not used to nice, as you also apparently are not. So a little nice goes a long way.
Up until a year ago I did work. And now we are partly living on my savings from my many decades of work, so actually I am still providing in a way. (Why am I throwing this in all of a sudden? I guess the topic of guilt came up and...)
When he is about to come home, I start to feel tense and frozen. I really hadn't thought about it. Wow!
Hi Marta,
I do actually have wild dreams, and I intend to fulfill all of them one day. But now my main thing is the children. However, if I can be a ski bum for a year, or live on a cruise ship, if I find a way, I'm there! In the meanwhile I just want a realisable future that I can actually have and plan and will not waste my time daydreaming. Does that sound too flat? I feel I have limited resources in time and emotional energy and I just want to get my hands on a new life that I can count on without it being too much of a stretch or a juggling act.
I completely understand your frustration with having your h be just another child in the household to manage and care for and who doesn't pick up his toys.
Brigid how did you know this? Have you been living in my closet? And tell me, is the term "tidy up" somehow difficult to interpret?
we only get one shot at life
Yes, H&H I guess this is why I am finally getting off my bum to do something before I'm too old to pack boxes.
Hoppy,
I had H warm up leftovers for dindin. See, I'm listening!
mum, everybody, I really, get something out of each and every story. Tell meeeeee! I am a concrete person who learns by example more than by theory. So I glean lots from the stories. Please don't feel that yours is repetitive - I take a long time to learn something and hijacking is ok. And every person who writes something touches my heart.
Plucky
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ok, Plucky, here's a story.
I married someone who did a really good job of making me feel as bad about myself as I felt I deserved to feel.
I stayed with him "for the children" for 13 years, and finally left him "for the children". The following may explain that.
He supported my negative self image by being non existant as a father ( escept when it was fun) and basically absent as a partner (both physically and emotionally). I was a single mother, but married. He was a giant sized child.
I resented him entirely and loved nothing more than for him to travel for work so I could have some peace. I would then fantasize about him dying and my having that peace forever. I thought that his dying would be easier for the kids than divorce. Then I got a golden opportunity (that had presented itself before, mind you) in his affair with a much younger woman. Frankly, though, it was a coward's opportunity, as if I had been honest with myself, I wouda/shoulda left him WAY before that one.
I decided that I wanted my children to have a chance to see true love. What they were seeing instead was nothing like that, in the way he was absent so much and while with us, controlling and verbally abusive. The thought that carried me through was that if I stayed with him, I would be passing on a legacy from HIS father and mother that HE chose to emulate. I had a better idea and example of how life and love could be, and it was my duty to show my children that option. If they never got to see my with a partner and in love, then they would see true love in how I loved myself enough to create the life I truly deserved.
I had to break free of this prison of a relationship, where I was in a service position (taking care of everything) while he played like a big baby/bully.
I knew that if I "forgave" this affair (yet again) that he would only continue in this pattern of betrayal, dishonesty and abuse. I decided I was worth more thank that. It was the most frightening thing I have ever done, but like all bravery, the making of me.
It has been 10 years almost since that, and it's only in the last 3 that I have truly been learning WHY I married and had children with him, and what that had to do with my learning as a soul. It was important. It was part of my path, and although I wish sometimes I had married my best love 25 years ago....the universe has acually delivered exactly that to me....just a little later. It was all part of my path, and I regret none of it, for I have 2 beautiful children, who have their own paths to follow in this life, part of which is having an asshole for a dad. Something and someone they will learn from as well.
Even now, as I embark soon on my new life in my "heart home" where I grew up, I realize those challenges relating to this idiot continue, and for a good reason. I believe I have a duty to my daughter in particular, to show her that a woman's worth is every bit as big and grand and important as a man's. I have a duty to demonstrate to her what taking control of one's life looks like, how a person can CREATE with love and possibility instead of being trapped as a victim of circumstance and past decisions.
No one is meant to live half way. And although this means a hard lesson for my daughter coming up, she NEEDS to learn this (how to stand up for herself) and I cannot prevent that for her by not living my life. To do so would be a true mistake as a mother and teacher of love (our true role).
LOVE is not cruel, or afraid, or counting up mistakes, or seeing a LACK of anything. Love is running this universe. Whenever I get out of my own way (loves way) I have grown, and allowed my children to do so as well.
I know it's more of the "look into your heart" kind of advice, but that's what saved me. Answer the question "what do you want?" with something positive (not just what you don't want) and the answers (tough ones, either way) will come crashing down on you....get ready.
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I realized, along with all the typos, that when I wrote that last epistle, it may have sounded like my son would not benefit as well from my independence. I should explain that he is almost an adult and emancipated, and that it is my daughter who will still have to deal with her dad more regularly and have to stand up to him in this next bit of legal stuff.
Also, it may be helpful to know that my son is the most caring, kind and respectful boyfriend to a lovely and intellegent girl. He has not become his father in any way shape or form. I like to think it was because I got out before he saw too much of my acceptance of his father's bad behavoir.
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Plucky,
I agree with what mum has said about what your children can learn in a positive sense from you making the decision to leave their father. It will never be an easy decision and there is going to be fallout of some sort, but I do believe the long term benefits will outweigh the short term anxieties.
My children watched their mother crumble into a puddle of devastation when their father suddenly wanted to end our marriage. I'm sure some of that scared them and they probably wondered if I would ever be the same or happy again. They watched me work my way through hours of therapy, while still supporting everything they did, still decorating the house for the holidays, taking them away on vacations, and trying as best I could to present a happy face, while doing my best to not talk badly about the man who had abandoned me/us. They have seen me sell our family home, buy and make a new home for the three of us and handle most things on my own. Through much of that, I was sad and angry, but kept that from them as much as possible (although quite often the anger gave me the energy I needed to keep going).
They now see a happy, healthy mom who has survived and conquered her fear of being alone. Who has proven that she can face adversity and be victorious. Who made sure that we were well taken care of financially and their educations were secure. I am proud of what I have demonstrated for them over the last 2 1/2 years and I believe those are life lessons that they will appreciate forever more.
My therapist told me many times that once I had my feet back on the ground and was able to consider a new relationship, that there was a chance for my children to see what a real, adult love relationship should look like. I believe that that is now the legacy I am giving my children when they see how happy I am with my bf and how much they like him as a person. My kids understand that their father is a big child who is irresponsible and undependable. They also see his nearly 3 year affair with a married woman as really icky, and that too is a life lesson.
I believe that things happen for a reason. Like mum, my life has taken some bad turns, but I'll never regret my 2 beautiful children and how they came into my life. Perhaps the relationship I am now in will not last forever, but then again, maybe it will. Faith and hope have gotten me this far and I'm just going to keep hanging on to that.
Blessings,
Brigid
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Bless you, Brigid. I had tears in my eyes reading your post. Your strength and grace are inspirational.
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Brigid,
I am so glad for your achievement and moved by your confidence and faith.
Question for you: do you believe a middle-aged woman can later model marital (or partner-al) happiness and for a sad adult daughter already (in her case) very scarred by divorce?
IOW, if I turn up a good relationship sometime between now and age 60, is there a chance it'll help my daughter, or is her train too far down the track?
Hopalong
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Brigid,
I am so glad for your achievement and moved by your confidence and faith.
Question for you: do you believe a middle-aged woman can later model marital (or partner-al) happiness and for a sad adult daughter already (in her case) very scarred by divorce?
IOW, if I turn up a good relationship sometime between now and age 60, is there a chance it'll help my daughter, or is her train too far down the track?
Hopalong
Mum & Bridgid
I loved reading your stories.... I am always so inspired by the strength of people on here, and love to read how people can move on in their lives.
Plucky.... "And every person who writes something touches my heart." This is lovely Plucky. I'm sending you much strength at this time. I think to post that you are struggling with this decision is a huge step because it brings it to life, makes it more real.
Hoppy.... As someone with divorced parents, IMO all I've ever wanted to see for both of my bio parents is that they were happy. I've always grown up thinking they were happier apart than together.
I believe there is a chance for everyone to have a happy and good relationship, whatever their age. You've said a couple of times about your daughter's "train being too far down the track". As she is only 25, in my personal opinion, I think she's got a long way to go before her train is too far down the track.
One thing that struck me from your post was "if I turn up a good relationship". I was intrigued by this.... makes it all your responsibility. I feel the secret is to believe that you deserve to be loved and respected. I feel this self belief helps others to treat you as you should be treated.
Also, one last thing.... I've never found a good man when I've been looking.... when I've stopped looking and lived to enjoy myself, been happy with myself, then bam... a cracking blokey pops into my life. :lol:
Take care all
H&H xx
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Hi plucky,
I have two small children and it's very difficult at the best of times let alone if you have to deal with a husband that won't help. My husband does consider my feelings and helps me when I need him. My advice would be if he consistantly shows selfish behaviour and doesn't want to consider your feelings and views on this, I think counselling is the way to go. If this doesn't work and he chooses to not work with you on the marriage then maybe there are choices you can consider. Maybe a trial separation, living apart but still having a relationship. Building on respect, teamwork etc.
My opinion is to do everything possible you can do to make this work on your side and then if he doesn't change, you know that you've done everything and you can leave knowing that you tried your best and there is no guilt.
I also think that you know your own gut and sometimes that gut feeling is what leads you to the right descision.
I really feel for you and this must be a really hard time for you. Make sure you nurture yourself during this time and maybe go on a few nice day outs with the children just the three of you. You'll be amazed at how it feels when you enjoy the look of joy on your childrens faces. Remember that you are valuable and you deserve respect and consideration. Ultimately whatever the outcome, you know that you can choose to have a happy life and that one person cannot take your dignity, uniqueness ect away and ultimately he has to make the choice whether he's going to start respecting and working on the marriage and friendship with you. If he refuses then there is your choice.
All the best Plucky, we are here for you.
Jessica :)
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Mum,
I'm glad I could inspire you for a change. You have certainly been a role model for me since I started posting here nearly a year ago.
Hoppy,
Question for you: do you believe a middle-aged woman can later model marital (or partner-al) happiness and for a sad adult daughter already (in her case) very scarred by divorce?
Yes, I have to believe that it is never too late to be a positive role model for your children. Keep in mind that your daughter is still observing a mom who is struggling to right her ship. This may still be affecting how she is dealing with life and how much you are able to help her with that. I am certainly not trying to lay any guilt trips at your feet as I know you are doing the best you can with a difficult situation, but who knows what could happen if she saw you find a happy complete relationship that would help you gain the strength to help her with her issues. Or perhaps it would give you the strength for a tough love stance which would require her to take responsibility for her own behaviors.
She is still a very young adult with a lot of life left to live. Many of us on this board made some very stupid decisions and bad choices when we were that age. I realize she is dealing with a bit more than that, but with good therapy and medicinal management, she does have hope of a full future.
You are overwhelmed by all that you are required to manage right now. It is hard to have a positive outlook under those circumstances, but if you are serious about wanting to begin a journey to find a healthy relationship, that is a place to start. As my therapist told me many times, you cannot find a healthy partner until you are healthy yourself. I also agree with H & H that it quite often happens when you are not looking, but at our age, you do need to be a bit more proactive than folks in their 20's and 30's. You are obviously a very bright, sensitive, intuitive and beautiful on the inside (can't speak to the outside) woman. There are men out there who would be honored to have you in their life and could give you the love, caring and attention that you deserve. Faith, hope and a bit of initiative can help you to find them.
Many blessings,
Brigid
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Hiya Plucky:
I wonder what will become of my H after the divorce.
I wonder what will become of you if there is no divorce. Who can you effect change in/for?
At one point I thought he would just drink himself to death, or catch something from a prostitute.
I had the exact same thoughts when I was struggling, as you are, to decide. Once I decided that those would be his choices, nothing to do with me......I let go of worrying about it. If he decided to rot....he would do so with or without me.
But now I think he will be fine. All his pathetic posturing was just for control.
Bet you're right! But if he isn't fine?
Do you feel responsible for him/his behaviour/what he chooses/how fine he is?
Can you really change anything for him?
Not up to you Plucky! Not your stuff! You can't fix him or change him or make him fine or not fine.
You can do those things for yourself, if you need/want/decide to.
I love you guys.
Plucky you seem like a very loving person. You deserve love in your life.....whether it be from your kids and friends, or in a relationship with a mate. You deserved love because you ARE lovable and loving. Be kind to yourself.
Life in the dead zone sucks. It's survival and it is possible, people do it all the time, for years and years and years, but it still sucks. Take heart! Life after emerging from that crypt is peaceful, comfortable and enjoyable! It too is possible .....doable.......not nearly as scary as staying in place that drains life from you.
Both are choices eh?
I'm not sure what the last straw was for me but once it was broken......I had nothing to grasp. I had to go get myself away from that pile of a mess. Staying married or divorcing for the children's sake was not an option for me. I knew I'd resent doing so, eventually. I had to decide for me. I had to save me......first. Then......I was soooo much more able to do my best for them.
(((((((Plucky))))))
Sela
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While I'm chugging along a parallel track wondering about a new relationship one day, your Decision stories remind me life's not SOOO bad without a mate!
But regardless, thanks H & H, for pointing out it wouldn't be ALL my job either to find or ensure the success of a good relationship. I forgot! It takes two people, who knew?
And Brigid, thanks very much for the encouraging words. I think I'll go marry Leo Kottke. Siggghhh. :)
Meanwhile, back to you, plucky Plucky...thinking of you.
Sela, the Dead Zone is such a painfully perfect phrase.
Here's to faith in new life.
Hopalong
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Plucky,
I wonder what will become of my H after the divorce. At one point I thought he would just drink himself to death, or catch something from a prostitute. But now I think he will be fine.
I forgot that I had wanted to respond to this statement (thanks Sela for your posting). Aside from how it will affect your children, what does it matter? I also thought those same things about my ex, even though he made the decision to leave. I actually worried more about depression taking over and the potential for suicide, but I no longer have those worries.
I do believe that he will be a sad and lonely man and be searching for something to make him happy for the rest of his life. If he will ever understand the extent to which he damaged the relationships in his life--with friends, family, our children--I don't know. I don't think he can allow himself to look at any of that realistically. It would only add to the very low opinion that he really has of himself and he can't go there. Everyone that knows the story of our break-up, sees him as a pathetic loser, who gave up the only good thing he had going for him.
He saw me as the weight around his neck that kept him from enjoying life. In reality, it was quite the opposite and without him dragging me down, I am enjoying life more than I ever thought possible. I have found the courage to try new things and have exciting new life experiences and feel a joyeux de vivre that is wonderful. He sits in a bar with a couple of other single people night after night waiting for his girlfriend to leave her husband. I don't think he will be fine, but the bottom line is that it is not my problem and I don't care. As Sela said, he has to save himself and you have to save yourself. I'm just so happy to not have that third child in my life anymore who was waaayyy more work than my other two children combined.
Brigid
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When you've been only in abusive relationships, you CAN'T imagine what a loving relationship feels like --
Hi Marta,
Actually, I have had loving relationships. Of course, I ran like hell from this unaccustomed lack of drama and the possibility to envision a future with the person. If I could imagine a relationship after this, it could be with someone I knew before, a la Mum. But I don't think that is realistic.
I imagine a great relationship with my children where I spend lots of time and am not stressed, where I can form friendships with other adults and their children, and we can have more structure and traditions and family customs. Nearly everything I want to do now, I have to drag my H behind like a beached whale.
Plucky
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No one is meant to live half way.
This is a great phrase Mum, did you invent it?
Life in the dead zone. Yup, that's my address.
I think I sort of get what Marta and others are saying. What do I want, in positive terms, not as an absence of what I don't want. Although what I don't want is definitely driving things and I think that is legit.
Mainly I want relationships with others. Not romantic. I want friends. Buddies. People to talk to, listen to, open up with, trust, make plans with. I want my children to have a community.
As nothing as it is, at least I can count on my H to be there. When it is over, I know I will have to work through the worst of it alone. I don't have any friends and my family will be less than helpful if I tell them anything.
I want to be able to support my children through this and I hope I will have the strength. That is what I am afraid of.
Plucky
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Dear Plucky, it's a biggie, sorry. I agree with you about “Although what I don't want is definitely driving things and I think that is legit.” I think it is legit too. You have to clean out all the crap before you see the possibilities for new stuff. Even in a wardrobe. All the clutter crowds your mind.
This is Plucky’s manifesto! :D It’s grrrreat! :D
Mainly I want relationships with others. Not romantic.
(applause!! Cheers! Even……*pom poms*)
I want friends. Buddies. People to talk to, listen to, open up with, trust, make plans with.
Yeah! This is a great goal. Where are all those safe people?? It’s not easy, nothing ever is, but it’s worth making the time and huge effort to go out and find those 3D people. I’ve found one or two. To me, they’re a bit weird, they have their own stuff and they’re not ‘perfect’ friends. But I like them (and I’m nowhere near perfect either). Just finding one or two things in common is a start. These are people who we don’t have to live with too!
I want my children to have a community.
Do they already have friends? Do those friends visit you? Can they visit more often? Do you like their moms? Do they visit their friends? Etc etc what are the opportunities for simple contact and communication right now? However small? Tiny changes make big impacts. Asking someone in for a coffee. Having kids to dinner. Anything to change the routine.
Nobody has to be alone. I thought I had to do everything myself. I don’t. It’s a hard lesson to learn. It means giving up a tiny bit of control, and that’s hard. I like being in control, having everything just so, having the stuff I want clean, clean. Having stuff tidy. Having an ordered life so that if anything goes wrong, I have mental space to deal with it. This attitude of mine is all a result of a crap childhood. It’s not healthy. It’s not optimistic, loving, spontaneous, happy. It’s a coping mechanism. Because at heart I believe that life is antagonistic, is to be survived and battled through (also not a healthy outlook, result of….blah). Okay yes life is difficult and things will go wrong and there’s zero we can do about the earthquake that’s about to happen etc. (Gosh I’m ranting :shock:!!) BUT…..allowing things to get a little out of control is freeing. It opens up new possibilities. New ways of thinking and seeing the world. Rant over.
Some practical chat, I hope.
You said:
Every time my H does something nice, I feel guilty that I am planning to leave.
Yeah, we’re conditioned to feel guilty for wanting something for ourselves. So any scrap that is thrown our way we fawn over and lap up. We feel so pathetically grateful. Well I did. (You know there’s lots of projection in what I’m writing? Good. It’s about me. Don’t take it too personally. :roll:Haha!) And then that huge boulder of GUILT descends that says: I AM A BAD PERSON for wanting what I want. I have no right. I’m lucky to have that scrap. It’s a wonder I have anything, I’m sooooo selfish etc etc. This is what Hop pointed out to me – Toxic Shame. Guilt with an added bonus :x. It’s not, “I did something wrong, I feel guilty”, it’s “I feel bad for wanting to leave this man because hey he just did something nice and I must be a Bad Person for not being grateful and putting up with my lot in life.” Plucky: I am a bad person is not guilt. I am a bad person is what your mother taught you. It’s rot. Mind-rot.
It’s all bollocks. It’s our internal childhood programming running in loops. Bad girl! :x :x :x
You are not a bad person. :D You have no reason to feel guilty. :D Just because H does something nice doesn’t mean you have to even like it! Let alone feel guilty. You’re worth so much more. This ain’t false praise or just motivational words. You are actually worth more. Your self is all you really have. If you don’t take yourself and your needs and wants seriously, who else will? I’m ranting again. Sorry. Hope you get a laugh or two? Trying to hide a couple in there.
Where was I? Oh yeah, I was going to be practical. Hmm. Went off track I feel. Haha. Oh well. Not perfect, not God. Practical! See if I can hold the thought for longer than an ant’s memory span (apologies to ants there).
You said:
Up until a year ago I did work. And now we are partly living on my savings from my many decades of work, so actually I am still providing in a way. (Why am I throwing this in all of a sudden? I guess the topic of guilt came up and...)
Holy Cow!!!!!! :shock: :shock: You have kids, you worked and now you’re spending your savings!!! Still actually providing in some way? Yeah! With that important stuff called money! Pleeeeease don’t put yourself down so much. You’re guilty for not working 40 hours a week, looking after your kids and your h? Are you superwoman????
How many women do you know who get married, have kids and don’t work again until kids leave home/go to college etc? How many women leave all the financial stuff to their hubbies and just spend money as they need/want to? How many people live on so much credit that you wonder how they get to sleep at nights?
Lots.
When he is about to come home, I start to feel tense and frozen.
I lived with that for 6 months. That was enough for me. No kids though, that’s a big difference. I just packed my little beat-up car and drove away. He cried. Ahhhhhh! Big deal. He had a new woman in the flat by the weekend.
As nothing as it is, at least I can count on my H to be there.
Yep, the lump on the couch. Being alone can be a universe better than being with someone you have to eggshell tiptoe around. And who you resent. You resent him. No worries there, I’d resent him. In fact I do resent him :D Free yourself from that. You can. It's doing you no good.
I want to be able to support my children through this and I hope I will have the strength. That is what I am afraid of.
Please talk more. Exactly what is the worse that could happen? Will you go mad on your own? Start having schizophrenic tendencies? Do you hear voices yet? Do you have obsessional traits? Will you murder your kids and yourself? Have to beg on the street?
I’m being over the top to try and nibble away (nibble nibble like mice at cheese) at the real fear in there. Fear is a bummer. It’s usually about something which is unrelated too. Like being left alone lot by your mom? Or something. Help me out here please. I’m playing a total blinder (is that the right expression??).
Hahaha did I say practical??
Okay, back to topic.
Practical stuff.
Do you wash, dry and iron his shirts?
Do you wash and dry his underwear?
(Do you iron sheets btw? Is there any woman who actually does this?)
Do you cook his food?
Do you collect his clothes for washing etc?
If so: You don’t have to do any of this.
One of the ways to formally separate before a divorce (and this is practised in Law over here) is that the couple stay in the home but live separate lives. They can sleep in the same bed but they do their own washing, ironing and cooking. They do that for 2 years and then get a divorce based on breakdown. I think. Something like that. Whatever. The point is, if you do this stuff now, you’ll need a heap of strength to make changes like this. To have that conversation where you state your new mode of living and he gets to like it or lump it. Not easy :?, but easier than huge dramatic life-changing moves made all at once. Little steps.
Hope my ramble brought a smile or two and maybe some thoughts. ((((plucky))))
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Nope I ain’t finished. I wish I’d just shut up! :D
Every time my H does something nice,
I feel this is important and deserves more attention. What do I know? Never mind:
Q. What does he actually do that is nice? (Let’s see the reality clearly here. Let’s check with each other and compare ideas, please.)
I feel guilty that I am planning to leave.
Interesting choice of words – that you are planning to leave.
You’re not actually planning to leave. You’re planning to stop being his partner. Difference. It could possibly happen that you both physically leave. Or you stay and he leaves.
But you see it as you leaving him. Abandoning him. Which is a bad thing to do? It takes two to make a reciprocal relationship work.
where does it come from.....
Did your mom ever make you feel guilty for leaving her? For having your own friends, your own life? Not giving her enough attention?
Did you ever feel responsible for your mom’s feelings? Did you ‘make’ her sad, angry, depressed etc?
Keep thinking. Thinking is free! Feelings are just feelings. Not good or bad, just feelings to be examined and understood. Bye for now, P
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Portia, you have some really excellent points!
Up until a year ago I did work. And now we are partly living on my savings from my many decades of work, so actually I am still providing in a way. (Why am I throwing this in all of a sudden? I guess the topic of guilt came up and...)
Who do you think you are????!!!!! :shock: :shock: :shock:
Some kind of a superman?
I'd missed this important piece of info. until I saw it quoted in Portia's post. Plucky, you are doing WAY much too much beyond what is your due. Why do you have to spend away your savings, for it seems like your H is quite well-off, if you don't mind my asking? I am worried that this may besome kind of a strategy by your H to render you completely dependent on hi. Forgive me and ignore if I am of base here -- I am rather paranoid these days.
To me, all that you are doing, and to feel guilt on top of everything else, just doesn't make sense. You and your children are going to NEED your savings, sweetie, so why not keep them for a rainy day?
Portia:
It’s a coping mechanism.
Please talk more. Exactly what is the worse that could happen?
Seriously seconded. This is exactly what I meant, when we face a difficult situation, we automatically resort to our coping mechanisms. You have to know what your particular variety of coping mechanism is, and try to break out of that. It could be to say that look, x, y, z could happen if I get out so I better stay. Of course it is a as legit a way of dealing with the world as any other, question is not of legitimacy but of making life affirming choices and confronting unfounded fears that are legacy of our N parents. We are only trying to get you to spell out why you think the choice to stay in this particular situation is a preferable one, on what basis, why, in your own mind, not to us necessarily.
I also agree with the second comment by P. What EXACTLY could happen? Put your fears out there one by one on the table and see if they hold up to rational scrutiny. Remember, one of the main characteristics of N offsprings is their distorted world view. One distortion in yours has been noted by many of us--that is your tendency to take on more than your fair share of guilt.
Take care Plucky, I am seeing that pieces are falling in place for you.....
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Q. What does he actually do that is nice? (Let’s see the reality clearly here. Let’s check with each other and compare ideas, please.)
I'll help you out on this one Portia..... things my H does which is nice.
Practical things he does:-
He cooks my tea.... he cooks most nights, more often than me anyhow... and then sometimes he'll even wash up as well!
He sometimes does the washing.
He likes doing the ironing!!
Little nice things he does..... (and these are mainly daily things)
He gives me a big hug and kiss when I get in from work.
Tells me I'm his gorgeous sexy wife.
Tells me he loves me.
One thing both of us do is to thank the other for things.... like when he cooks I'll say "Thank you for that, it was lovely"... and he does the same when I cook. It means we both feel appreciated when we do things for the other.
Ah yes... and money. Whatever we earn is ours... it's shared equally, if one of us is a bit short, the other will help out.
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About to shoot away but thank you Marta! :D I was thinking ‘hmm I’ve probably said way too much there and got carried away but hey, press submit and hope for the best’. As you do! So you validated me there and that means I don’t have to fret for the rest of the day about what I said to Plucky (well maybe just a little fret then!). Oh and:
Remember, one of the main characteristics of N offsprings is their distorted world view.
Me too. Still working on all that stuff. :? Not easy. Two years and counting…. But only 2 years out of a life!
One distortion in yours has been noted by many of us--that is your tendency to take on more than your fair share of guilt.
We’re so good at that! :( I’m great at it. I can feel guilty for posting! Used to. I can feel guilty for what someone else feels! Used to. It’s takes so much darn re-wiring the old brain cells. It's hard work.
Hey H&H. :D That hubby of yours is a keeper. He is just scrummy and lovely. “Tells me I'm his gorgeous sexy wife.” I love that. I love that sense of ownership when it’s real and appreciated and meant in a caring, supportive way. Instead of a using and abusive way. Intention is everything sometimes.
Okay I’m gone.
PS. this warning word still annoyes me! Warning - while you were reading a new reply has been posted. :P
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Hey Portia,
The warning message annoys me too.
I think it seems to be saying: are you sure you know what you think? You wouldn't really say what you want to say if someone just added a different type of comment, would you? You'd be ready to bite your tongue and stuff back in your head the thoughts you were just preparing to share, right? You're not really confident of your opinions, eh? What if you make a MISTAKE??!!!!!!
I think it's stupid! But it's also silly that it bugs me. Like...I'm so hypervigilant to signs of being controlled or manipulated that I get pissed at an automated message! :P
(You've got company in the second-guessing dept, but we're getting better, ain't we?)
Hops
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Hmmmmm......things my H does which are nice?? .........I'll have to get back to you on that one. Some things seem nice until I realize they are just another ploy to control. Emotionally. Financially. Physically. Whatever.
Portia's quote:
Do you wash, dry and iron his shirts?
Do you wash and dry his underwear?
(Do you iron sheets btw? Is there any woman who actually does this?)
Do you cook his food?
Do you collect his clothes for washing etc?
If so: You don’t have to do any of this.
YUP. I DO this crap. (except for sheets, of course). After all, [tongue-in-cheek] I would do these things IF I really LOVED him. He doesn't quite come right out and say this, but do these people really need to SAY things to get their point across?? Not in my house.
I CAN list pages of one -liners about how mean and nasty he is to me and has been. through the years. I'll spare you all that. I am a person who up until recently would rather just forgive and forget. I made myself start writing this stuff down and even startled myself at the extent of his childish behavior.
I am enjoying imagining a life without him. Somehow the things I have worried about don't seem so bad.
Oh, and (((((Plucky))))), this is from another thread of Hopalong's, so apologies all, but I too have tossed gifts from my mom. I absolutely can't stand even signs of her presence around me at this point. It must be a Feng Shui (sp?) thing. Also, I don't have any friends left. I have shut everyone out, by force and by embarrassment. I have also made a stand in my community of cult (I mean, church) members who do surround me physically that I won't put up with their baloney any more either. It seems I have found myself on the warpath and I have tried to go it alone for too long. It IS a sink or swim for me. Now I've just made myself sound like a REAL B haven't I? I just finally feel if I don't take back my life, my mental and physical health WILL suffer. Seems like a live or die situation in this case. Bring it on. I guess what I am trying to say here is that life is going to put us in front of a fork in the road until we learn to make the right choice FOR US. For our health and sanity and self esteem. Make the right choice for you and don't beat yourself up about it.
And mum!!!! Is it really possible to rekindle a past love or relationship??? Ohhh....tempting. But, as Plucky said, probably unrealistic.
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I would just like to say......that I do not,... nor have I ever,.... nor do I ever intend to.....
........iron sheets.
(but I'm thinking of asking my husband to do it................for Valentine's Day!!)
:D Sela
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Q. What does he actually do that is nice? (Let’s see the reality clearly here. Let’s check with each other and compare ideas, please.)
Hi Portia, It's heartwrenching when our husbands don't treat us the way we deserve.I agree with Healing and Hopeful. Caring about each other is vital and nurturing each other. My husband and I love to sleep in so we take turns getting up for the kids.. He also loves making a cuppuchino in the morning for us. We make an effect to smile at each other and greet each other with a hug and a kiss. He also comments on how beautiful and sexy I am too. He has terrible parents too so we rely on each other alot. Your husband being or doing something nice doesn't nessessary mean that he is nurturing the relationship. My husband and I went through a rough spot a few years ago and we were considering separating. He dictated to me a bit and I just let him dominate me (his mum is dominating). He did this and did nice things and didn't see my point of view and had rules and expectations that he thought I should be meeting (no teamwork). Eventually I told him that I had a right to have my feelings and opinions and he had no right to dictate my life. To make a marriage work, he needs to treat me equally and that his view on being "right" isn't as good as being "good" because the marriage wasn't working. My husband also realizes that women have different needs than a man and he sees that I need different things than him.
With the work thing, he works at home so he sees that it's not easy being a stay at home mum. We share all the money, after puting money aside for bills, rent, kids, etc we both have an allowance (equal) each that we can do what we want with...
I will definately not iron sheets. I don't even do ironing. I have a washer dryer too (best thing ever) I hang clothes up in the cupboard and iron clothes as we need it. He vaccums, thats something he likes to do to help. I cook, he's a bad cook. its funny. hes never ungrateful. I'm no expert, I feel for you ladies being treated badly. I reckon the only real advice I could give is to go have a day just for yourself, maybe go with a friend. Buy a couple of nice outfits, buy some nice underwear, have a new hair style, get your nails done, get everything done at the beautician, wax, tan, facial, massage etc. buy some earings etc.
Top 10 Things Wives Want From Their Husbands
Guide Picks
From Sheri & Bob Stritof,
Your Guide to Marriage.
In no particular order, here are ten things that many wives want from their husbands.
1) Telling Her Daily That She is Loved
Everyone needs to be affirmed. Everyone needs to know they are loved. The best ways to say "I love you" are usually in simple, everyday, seemingly unimportant ways like an unexpected hug or holding hands when you walk together.
2) Understanding and Forgiveness
There will be days when your wife will make mistakes or when she will be difficult to be around. No one is perfect. She both wants and deserves your willingness to understand and forgive her. Remember that no relationship can be sustained without forgiveness.
3) Conversation
Don't let your conversations with your wife dwindle to nothing but talk about your kids, your jobs, and the weather. If that happens, your marriage relationship could be in real trouble.
4) Willingness to Make Time for Her and Your Children
Having quality time with your wife and kids isn't something that just happens. You have to make it happen by not only making the plans but by following through. Time with those you love has to be a high priority for you.
5) Saying "Yes" More Than Saying "No"
Habitual negative responses to your wife and kids can push them away from you. Think twice before saying "no" and you will be surprised at how saying "yes" can improve your relationships.
6) Listening Well
It's really disheartening for a wife to share her thoughts and feelings with her mate and then realize that he didn't actually listen to her. Your wife wants and needs you to not only listen with your ears, but to listen with your heart.
7) Affection and Kindness
How often do you say "please" or "thank you" or give your spouse an unexpected kiss? Unfortunately, some married couples forget that being kind and affectionate to one another are keys to a successful marriage.
8) Sharing Household and Child Rearing Responsibilities.
One of the main reasons couples fight is conflict over who is doing what around the house. Chores and child care are not the sole responsibility of your wife. She shouldn't have to ask you to do your share around the house.
9) A Day Off Now and Then
Give your wife a day off several times a month. This means that she will be free from worrying about what is happening with the kids, the house, the pets, and you. She not only deserves this break in her schedule, she needs it to be emotionally and physically healthy.
10) Commitment to Take Care of Yourself Both Physically and Emotionally
Many men are notorious for not taking care of themselves when it comes to health issues. This isn't fair to your wife. She is your lover not your mother. Take responsibility for your own health concerns.
This link is interesting too http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8111_leave.html
WHAT SHE REALLY NEEDS!
Your wife's greatest need of you is that you make her the number one attraction of your life. She needs to know that you worship the ground she walks on, that above all others, she is the one for you. In short, a continual courtship. Now don't take that beyond what I said. Of course you have many other interests and other things to do. But if you really want to get her attention you are going to have to make her at the pinnacle of them all.
Think of the time when you courted her, you know, in the beginning. You watched her every move. You thought of her constantly. You sent flowers to her work, and it wasn't even her birthday! You opened the car door for her. Listened more than you talked. You made sure you always looked good for her, that you kept yourself neatly groomed. You worked out, lost weight, sucked in that gut when she was around. She in turn bragged about you to all her friends, you were truly her "Knight in Shining Armor", the man of her dreams.
What happened between then and now? It's simple, it WORKED! You caught her attention, you asked for her hand, she accepted and you whisked her away. It all seemed so easy, it seemed so perfect. Men do things this way. We'll do anything so long as the objective is reached. But this is not to say we weren't genuinely in love or sincere. It's just that when we have what we want we turn off the machine that got us there.
This is what usually happens when after you crossed the threshold, all of a sudden, you turned off the courtship machine. Well why not, you had reached the objective. Why continue with all that work?
So you stopped sending her flowers (unless you had too). You got into the car first, and forgot to unlock the door for "her side". (You might have even drove off if she hadn't tapped on the glass!).
You stopped grooming yourself. In fact you rediscovered T-shirts. You know, your favorite, usually unwashed for many months. You let the gut go (phewww!). You now began to talk more than you listened, and in fact you began to yell, constantly - more times that you spoke softly.
What was the effect of this? You began to see a change in her. She began to rebel. She no longer looked at you with adoring eyes as if you were truly the knight in shining armor. Instead she began to talk to others about you as before, but it wasn't in glowing terms.
You might have heard her constantly complaint about how you changed, how you are so sloppy and so inconsiderate and so on. In turn you began to get angry and sulky. "She doesn't respect me!" You lamented. "She just doesn't understand me!" You told the bartender. You started to confide in others, sometimes even in other women about "that such and such, so and so" you are married to.
When it came time to buy a gift it was for a reason. It was no longer a pleasure, but a duty to perform, and you even resented the fact that you had to do it. It showed too, she knew, she could see it in your eyes, she should sense it in the "thought" behind the gift.
Does this all sound all too familiar?
It should, because it happens a million times a day all over this country and in the world. It's why the divorce rate in the U.S. is staggering, with 50% of all marriages ending in divorce.
All because in the beginning we men had by accident, or perhaps by instinct tapped into the needs our women and met them. Then inexplicably we backed off and seemed to forget those needs altogether. Rather we forgot the first need--that of EXCLUSIVENESS.
In the beginning we took the time to learn what pleased her. Now we take many things for granted. When it comes to telling her that she is number one, the only one you love, we don't. When confronted about this you get defensive, "What do you want from me?" "I work, I bring home the check, I buy the food, I care!". This as women say, is "typical" for us. We equate love, care and concern to HOW good we provide a living.
It's good that you do all that, but that's not what she wants. She wants to hear you say, "I love you!" She wants to hear, "Your the only girl for me!"
So many husbands think that their provisional accomplishment translates into their ONLY statement of love for their wives, and while the SECURITY is important and one of her needs it means nothing without EXCLUSIVENESS.
Your wife loves and needs the fact that you are a good provider, but she also needs support and security on the emotional level. She needs to know that in spite of all and everything SHE is your greatest object of concentration.
Therefore the two basic needs of the woman are "SECURITY" and "EXCLUSIVENESS". Yes she needs you to be a good provider, but also a good friend, counselor, confidant, and pal. If you fulfill these needs, or even make an honest attempt, then the respect you crave and need from her will be automatic. Because you will have EARNED that respect.
Jessica :)
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Wellll. This certainly puts my H's niceness into perspective. Husbands are doing all that? My H gets out of bed to get me a snack and I get all teary-eyed. I'm a sap!
Plucky
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Do you wash, dry and iron his shirts?
Do you wash and dry his underwear?
(Do you iron sheets btw? Is there any woman who actually does this?)
Do you cook his food?
Do you collect his clothes for washing etc?
Hahahahahaha!
I have given you all the wrong impression somehow. I am going to have to disillusion you.
We don't even have an iron. I thought we owned one, but when I was looking for it to do an art project with the kids, I couldn't find it. They were all excited (mommy, what's an iron?).
He washes his own clothing, except the nicer things that might get ruined. I was doing it too slowly. I sort them sometimes, or not. He takes his shirts out.
I do all the shopping and cooking. He does the dishes.
I do most of the tidying up, at least what gets done.
When we travel, I do the arrangements and the packing for us, he does his own packing.
He takes out the garbage.
Any questions?
Plucky
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My fear is based on the fact that I am creating the childhood for my children that I wish I had had. Not the one I had. So, it takes some effort. More than if I was drawing on my past. Add to this the strain of divorce and moving, my son's learning issues, and possibly financial stress, and the fact that I have no support from anywhere, except from here, plus I will have to give my children extra emotional support, I just have to determine what and how to do to make sure I can handle the extra load.
I think it is reasonable to plan for the extra emotional fallout. For this reason I am moving slowly. Perhaps glacially. Maybe it looks as if I need a lot of urging. Maybe I do. But the only gut feeling I have so far for sure, is to take it slowly and not rush into anythign I cannot handle. My children don't need a depressed, depleted mother.
Plucky
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(((((((((Plucky))))))))
Don't go any faster than you can handle. I'm glad you're looking realistically at your own limits and deciding not to leap into thin air before you have a safety net assembled.
Is there any single step you can take, that will connect you with support in your community? A group? A T? A ... women's center? A one-day personal growth workshop? Just one step that will make a slight change in your isolation?
Isolation is so big. Just one step in the direction of connection might help. You can take another one afterward if you want to, or not...somebody here also said "Doubt means don't."
If you have any doubts about your inner drive toward divorce...you can listen to them. It's okay to go back and forth. It's okay. You'll still wind up making the decision that makes sense to you and will be best for your children in the long run.
It can work out for them that they are watching their mother be a human being, and struggle, and grow. This is not a bad lesson for them to learn. You are being wholehearted about your struggle.
Hopalong
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Plucky:
Part of the problem is that I have no idea what is normal, since I have never seen a healthy love relationship up close.
vs.
Quote
When you've been only in abusive relationships, you CAN'T imagine what a loving relationship feels like --
Hi Marta,
Actually, I have had loving relationships.
And plucky:
Hahahahahaha!
I have given you all the wrong impression somehow. I am going to have to disillusion you.
Plucky, it eems to me that there is a lot going on in your mind and heart that is puzzling nd difficult for you. You put things out there but when others answer based upon what you've written, you seems to be saying that no, it is not me. It is not me who's not seen a halthy, loving relationship upcloe or it is not me who's taking on more than my fair share of housework. Could it be that you are identifying your defense mehanism?
My fear is based on the fact that I am creating the childhood for my children that I wish I had had. Not the one I had. So, it takes some effort. More than if I was drawing on my past. Add to this the strain of divorce and moving, my son's learning issues, and possibly financial stress, and the fact that I have no support from anywhere, except from here, plus I will have to give my children extra emotional support, .
1. Financial situation will not get any better if you stay on in hte marriage, for (a) you are depleting your savings. (b) you have mentioned that your husbad is ruthless in business, he has accepted that youre marriage is over, and hence will be planning the settlement before you do. Anyway you can stop using your savings right now?
2. Son's learning issues is a real biggie. I can see how that could occupy your attention full time for months. I too put that as my first priority if i was in your shoes, and everything else on the backburner, depending upon the severity of the problem.
3. Lack of emotional support is also a very difficult thoing to deal with. You are definitely going to need more support if you are going through a divorce, especially because then you will face pressure from additional fronts too like mom. What do you think can be possibly done to change this? Getting a faily T, like you'd mentioned earier, is a great idea but it may not give you enough emotional support for yourself. Do you ever think about getting a T just for yourself? I can't imagine how else I'd go through a divorce if I was in your shoes.
I just have to determine what and how to do to make sure I can handle the extra load
I agree. Planning and setting priorities are really exellent ways to move forward.
Maybe it looks as if I need a lot of urging. Maybe I do. But the only gut feeling I have so far for sure, is to take it slowly and not rush into anythign
Plucky, To be fair, I have seen urging here on the board for only two things: (a) To confront the issue *emotionally*, and clarify whether or not divorce is the right thing for you, and if you think it is better to stay, enumerate your reasons for thinking so and put your fears on the table. (b) TO protect yourself financially, by preserving your savings and consulting a lawyer to protect your interests. (c) To find emotional support, may be get a T. Nobody has urged you to take any other action or make a decision quickly -- of course these things take time, a long time, and without being prepared, the results could be disastrous!
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Plucky,
IMHO, whether or not you are washing and ironing his underwear is really not the issue (I know you are not doing this). If you really love someone and they are returning that feeling of love and attention, you would probably not mind ironing the underwear if it made your spouse happy. How people show their love for each other is individual and private. For some it's between the sheets and for others it may be in the kitchen or laundry room (and I don't mean during the spin cycle :wink:), but mostly it's a combination of all those things. The bottom line is whether you feel valued and loved and small kindnesses don't have to be asked for. Also, that after a period of time together, your spouse understands what things you appreciate and they continue to do those things after years of being married.
We all will feel undervalued at times and know that there are times when we have to give more than we are getting during a marriage. The key to the marriage being successful, however, is balance and compromise. You seem to always feel undervalued and taken for granted. I always did too. How long you're willing to feel this way is something only you can determine. If your h is not showing you value now, it is unlikely that is going to change unless he is willing to work with you in counseling and that both of you really want change to happen. If one or both of you do not have your heart in trying to save the marriage, then no amount of counseling will make any difference.
I agree with Marta that no one here is trying to push you into any kind of decision. You asked for stories and we have shared them. No one will tell you that getting a divorce is a walk in the park, but we have also told you that there can be a new life after divorce and it can be much sweeter. You don't appear to be in any danger if you stick around, so you can take as much time as you like, but at the very least, look at your situation clearly and completely and figure out if you want to still be there 10, 20 or 30 years from now. If not, figure out a plan to make it change--one way or another.
Brigid
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Hi Plucky:
I laughed I thought we owned one, but when I was looking for it to do an art project with the kids, I couldn't find it. They were all excited (mommy, what's an iron?).
:D :D
So you're not Susie Homemaker then eh? No eating off your floors?? Mine either.
A woman I worked with years ago said to me:
"Never let household chores come ahead of time with your children. I would never put a household chore ahead of time with my children!"
She was an older woman.....kind of motherly and to be honest....I probably needed a figure like that to give me advice at the time. I took her words to heart and my house has never been the same since!
It's good to set priorities like that Plucky. I get the impression you have yours in order. Good going.
Sorry you may be feeling pressured a little. Hey! Maybe that's a good thing? Something else to look at the why's of? What statements generated that feeling and why do you think? (for you to consider....not a real question eh, if you don't feel like answering here or if I'm totally out to lunch..which wouldn't be the first time). Hope I didn't say anything that upset you and I'm sorry, in case, because I sure don't mean to do that. Sorry Plucky.
Anyhow.....I was thinking:
My fear is based on the fact that I am creating the childhood for my children that I wish I had had. Not the one I had. So, it takes some effort. More than if I was drawing on my past. Add to this the strain of divorce and moving, my son's learning issues, and possibly financial stress, and the fact that I have no support from anywhere, except from here, plus I will have to give my children extra emotional support, .
So what you are really struggling with then is this??
1. To stay and continue creating the childhood for your children that you wish you had had.
VS
2. To leave and create a childhood for them that is far from what you wish you had had because you will end up being a strained, tired, financially stressed, emotionally drained, depressed, depleted mother.
?? Is that close?
Your fear is totally understandable and valid. I bet many of us who have struggled with the decision have been afraid of the same things. I know I have. For me.......it didn't end up that way at all (#2). As I said....the weight that was lifted was a huge relief. Maybe for you, it doesn't feel like that. I was a strained, tired, financially stressed, emotionally drained, depressed, depleted mother while I was married, for years ....until, as I said....Alanon helped me change my attituxde.
But for you Plucky? Maybe you don't feel like that now at all and so your fear is that you will feel like that, if you decided to go it on your own?
Those 2 choices seem reasonable? Does number 1 need refining?
1. To stay and continue creating the childhood for your children that you wish you had had, while modelling what a married relationship is like.
What do you think? Is that a fair statement?
It's a good thing to take account of the situation and try to list the pros and cons, gains and losses, advantages and disadvantages of your different choices. Nothing wrong with that. It's a good idea, imo, that will help you make a decision. And ofcourse!!!
Take your time is absolutely the best thing. You have a good gut, Plucky, because it's telling you the absolute best thing you can do........take your time.
Is there possibly a number three?
3. Get outside support for you so that no matter what you decide.....you won't feel so alone?
Have you ever been to therapy or a counsellor before? I'm just wondering if you have any fears about that? I agree with the idea that isolation isn't the best thing for you, no matter what you decide. I also know how scary it is asking for help. But having a real live person supporting you will help you whether you stay or not. It's one way to prevent a lot of number 2 and to possibly influence number one.
((((((Plucky))))))
Glad to see you posting. It's good to air out your thoughts and feelings......worries, fears, hopes, dreams.
Wishing you a peaceful day.
:D Sela
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Thanks everyone for being there still as I vacillate and reflect.
Marta I can see how that would seem contradictory. Maybe I can clarify. As child, I did not witness a good marital relationship up close. Even now, I have friends who are married, not good friends, more of acquaintances. But I cannot tell much about the marriages, just that they seem closer than we are. Some seem worse off.
I have had good relationships but did not go too far in them, as they scared me to death. They did not resemble the sick scenarios I knew to be real relationships. Unless there was something awful about it, I thought I did not deserve it and therefore it would soon end anyway. So I bolted.
I do harbour resentment for my H due to the household work. But that doesn't mean I'm Suzy Homemaker ironing sheets. Much of it relates to the children, not the house itself. For that reason it's hard to outsource. He does do things, but it's mainly his attitude that causes the resentment. One item in the 10 things women want was not saying No all the time. All of my suggestions and ideas are usually met with No, initially. These are things we need to do or the children need, but he vetoes because it is more work for us. Then I have to campaign and convince. In the end we usually do it, but it's tiring.
I'm just thinking things over and trying on different ways to understand it. I'm glad I have you all to help. The help is making it all work through for me. If I am dithering and contradicting myself, well, I'm not perfect!
Plucky
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Don't cross the river if you can't swim the tide, babe!!
Hang in there---you will. You are on the right track!
((((Plucky)))))
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Hi Plucky
I can relate to struggling with such a decision. However I do not have kids. I have been married for almost 4 (overall miserable, with definite nice moments) years. You read my post about friends on the help board.
Some people say struggling with the decision is the hardest part.... It is definitely exhausting!
Here are some strategies that helped me in the process.
Try deciding to stay and living with that decision for like a week.
Then try deciding to leave and living with that decision... make notes of your thoughts and feelings each time.
My process of letting go was gradual... I had to mentally deal with the fact that I would be displaced for a while... My beautiful house that I decorated would not be mine. I would have to let go of going home at the end of a day, eating my own food and sleeping in my own space...
I had to let go of the friendly aspects of my NH... the good times were inextricibly linked with the bad. I had to accept that I could not have one without the other...
I also had to think about finances (and that is not yet settled) but in the end the feeling to leave became so strong that I was able to do the letting go that I needed to do. It is indeed a process that everyone goes through at their own rate.
Divorce is hard, and especially with kids, I imagine... The grieving process continues for me, but I am at peace with my decision and I am feeling hopeful about the future (most days).
Regardless of what you decide, you need a good social support network. Friends and family to help take care of the kids, good listeners, and a really good therapist.
If you decide to go through with a divorce you also need a lawyer that you can trust.
Peace Plucky! Sjkravill
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Vacillating is just thinking, Ms Pluckster.
None of these big decisions are crisp and simple.
Sometimes ambivalence is life's gift of space (uncomfortable space, but still space).
I love the idea of list-making...
but even MORE the idea of getting help and support so you're not always weighing things in isolation. Start with your doubts and make sure whoever you talk to doesn't want to push you in one direction or another, but is more interested in supporting you while you take the journey deeper into yourself.
Only one thing is inevitable about all this: you growing, and growing more aware.
That's all good. Sometimes growing is like learning to dance, sometimes like lifesaving surgery. The degree of pain doesn't necessarily equate to the degree of rightness of a choice, I think...
((((((((Plucky)))))))))
Hopalong
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Hi Sela and everyone else who is lending a hand.
This is a good description. I can refine it:
1. To stay and continue creating the childhood for your children that you wish you had had, minus witnessing a good marital relationship.
VS
2. To leave and create a childhood for them that may, at least initially, be far from what you wish you had had because you could end up being a strained, tired, financially stressed, emotionally drained, depressed, depleted mother who hasn't done the work to tell what was her fault in the marriage and what was not.
My H has a lot of shortcomings but I know I do too. So I'm just trying to sort out what is what. Whatever is me, goes with me. So I want to know what that is!
Plucky
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I had to let go of the friendly aspects of my NH... the good times were inextricibly linked with the bad. I had to accept that I could not have one without the other...
Hi sj,
this is really helpful. It seems obvious now that you have said it. But I have been reluctant to let go of anything good in order to get rid of the bad. So I felt I had to determine that it was REALLY bad.
Plucky
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Nice Things He Does/Degree of Impact/Category I Care About (1-10)
Mean Things He Does/Degree of Impact/Category I Care About (1-10)
I'm sure somebody has better ones but these coulld be starter headings...just keep cranking them out...fill up some pages. Then you'll be able to "score" the last two and get a closer sense of whether you have deal breakers...
Love,
Hops
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Marta said:
This is why Carl Jung said that growth cannot occur in isolation but only through a relationship. How does therapy work? You throw ideas at the analyst, and he may ask questions, point out distortions, and your projections. If you simply try to replace a strawman for a therapist (or a friend, guide, whatever) in your own head, it doesn't work because that strawman is created from the same stuff as your own thoughts. For movement, you truly need opposing forces.
This is very true. I would agree that a good therapist would be your salvation right now (and just for you--couples counseling can come later if you decide to go that route). I would NEVER have understood what I was dealing with, how I could cope, how I would explain things to my children, why my xh did what he did and how I would move on with my life, without the very significant input of my T. I still got stuck in sad and lonely places for periods of time, but he kept me moving forward and making good decisions and finding clarity about my situation. I believe that any other remedy, i.e., finding a new career or interest, talking to friends who perhaps had been in a similar situation, or just trying to work through it on my own, would have been a band-aid approach and I would have ended up making the same relationship mistakes I have made my entire life (my answer for happiness was always to find a relationship). My T forced me to eventually go back to my FOO (in my mind) and examine how that relationship set me up for making such poor choices in mates and for being willing to live with them for so long without choosing to leave or even complain.
I always saw myself as a very strong woman who could cope just fine without therapy. I was "forced" to go there when my xh announced he wanted to leave and I was desperate to save the marriage. Ultimately I couldn't save the marriage (a Godsend), but I was able to save myself by continuing with that therapist until early December when he said I was just too happy to be in therapy anymore. I learned so much in those weekly visits for 2 1/2 years. Yes, it does get expensive, but it was the best money I ever spent and I'm so glad I stuck with it until I got my feet firmly planted on the ground again, or probably for the first time.
Please consider doing this for yourself and ultimately for your h and children. At the end of the day, no matter what decision you make, you must know in your own mind that you made that decision with clarity and complete understanding of the ramifications of that decision.
Hugs,
Brigid
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Thank you everyone,
I do think therapy would be useful and it is my plan to at least get a family therapist and hopefully one for me. Right now my life is so crammed full that I cannot figure out how to squeeze in a T. So I am trying to survive on books and the board. I have been to T in the past, and have had only short term experiences for different reasons. Some were good, some not - I know it could take some time and even setbacks before settling in to a good T relationship. It's an investment in time I don't have the means to make right now.
I think I have to go back to what write said. My H is bad at times, like anyone else. But the main thing is, that he has issues form his past that prevent him from being able to be the kind of partner I want. I don't have to make him into a monster. He is just not capable, even if he saw it and tried to do it. Which on occasion he does, and then I feel bad because he is trying.
As you wise ones have said, I am not responsible for what happens to him afterwards. I do care, because he is a human being, but mainly because he is my children's father and what happens to him impacts them. I can't control it but at least I can avoid making it worse by trying to keep the situation as cordial and human as possible.
So I'll just try to keep inching forward.
A snail-like
Plucky
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I just want to add that I read and reread every single post. They all have something in it to help me along. I have not properly responded to most of them. Lots of times I respond to the last one I read, get it all mixed up with ideas from someone else and then run out of steam. Although my progress is slow, it is taking a lot of energy and I only have a little sliver of myself to use for this.
So I just want to say that if I did not mention you by name, I have still appreciated your ideas and I'll try to respond better. Thank you.
Plucky
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Hi Plucky,
I have been following along this thread from the beginning. This sounds so much like me. You think you're vacillating? I was like the ping pong ball in an Olympic championship match!! :) It hasn't stopped, exactly, but it has gotten MUCH, MUCH better now. The real turning point for me was when I started returning to the same position AFTER each vacillation. I look at it this way: You are trying to balance and decide a lot of stuff that is VERY important to you and you need to understand the choices and what you really want before you make them. No problem. Keep posting your ambivalence or whatever you feel here. This is a great place to let it all out.
Take as much time as you need to get ready to make your decisions. If you aren't clear yet, you aren't ready to decide. I know how up in the air and uncomfortable it is for me to be stuck in the middle. It isn't a fun time, but I'll give you three pats on the back (or as many as you want) for continuing to find YOUR path in all this.
From my experience, you build or rebuild strength slowly. One tiny step at a time. Whatever you decide in the end, you will need to have as much strength to follow your path as possible. Take care of yourself and do something, anything, to build your strength every single day, even when you don't feel like it. Because you won't always feel like it until you have "enough" strength. Sleep in an extra 5 minutes or go to bed 5 minutes early. Put off non-essential "work." Eat healthy, get some exercise, go out with friends. Whatever will give you a boost and let you put down some burdens for a while. It all adds up and means even more when you know you are doing it specifically to take care of yourself.
I will also back up what Brigid said: I would agree that a good therapist would be your salvation right now (and just for you--couples counseling can come later if you decide to go that route).
My limited experience with couples counseling taught me that both parties must be willing and at least one must be able for the counseling to heal, rather than further damage the relationship. Take care of your own part first. Then you can see if your husband is willing or able to take care of his.
((((((((((((((((((Plucky)))))))))))))))))
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ok. whew. Thanks for letting me off the hook. It's silly isn't it! I feel like I should make up my mind, already. Some little voice in the back of my head is saying, hurry up! Don't you know what you want? You're hurting your children! You're a doormat! You're going to wait until you are near death to start living! Etc. Shut up little voice!
From my experience, you build or rebuild strength slowly. One tiny step at a time. Whatever you decide in the end, you will need to have as much strength to follow your path as possible. Take care of yourself and do something, anything, to build your strength every single day, even when you don't feel like it. Because you won't always feel like it until you have "enough" strength. Sleep in an extra 5 minutes or go to bed 5 minutes early. Put off non-essential "work." Eat healthy, get some exercise, go out with friends. Whatever will give you a boost and let you put down some burdens for a while. It all adds up and means even more when you know you are doing it specifically to take care of yourself.
longtire, this is great advice and I have instinctively been doing this. I've been getting to bed earlier and to heck with whatever I didn't get to. I just feel much more tired. I've been feeding us all well - it's the thing that holds the family together. I've been trying to listen to my soul when I just don't have the energy to do that last little task or drag everyone to that must-do fieldtrip. It's little but I think it is holding me together. I'm planning to try to work an hour a week of exercise into my schedule and I have 2 possible friends I am trying to cultivate. Life as a single parent looks too grim without having someone out there! But I worry whether married people want to be friends with single people, especially newly divorced people. Maybe the 2 possible friends will just dump me as soon as I confide anything important. I suppose the next step is to find a single parent group, and then what? Join, even though I'm not single yet? I feel like I'm trying to hop over a big puddle and it's too wide to span. I'm going to fall splat into the muddy water and.....(insert worst imaginable bad scenario).
A wet and dirty
Plucky
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Plucky's ducks:
financial, legal health, social
And through it all you're trying to listen to your soul: spiritual.
Sounds like you're getting your ducks in a row
Hope today is a hopeful day for you, you're doing such an honorable job.
Hopalong
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((((((Plucky))))
It’s great that you are putting in place some backup. Why can’t you join a single parent group? Are you in a couple? Or are you one of two people who happen to live in the same house? Big difference in my opinion… there are times when people can be emotionally single, before they break up, if you get what I mean.
I feel like I'm trying to hop over a big puddle and it's too wide to span.
This may feel like it is too wide to span, however what is waiting at the other side? When you feel you have everything in place, when YOU are ready, I feel you’ll be leaping over this puddle.
I believe in you Plucky…. I believe you have the strength and capabilities to get through what lies ahead, and we here to hold your hand through it too.
Take care
H&H xx
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Jung said that growth cannot occur in isolation but only through a relationship.
For an alternate view, read Alice Miller.
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Hi Plucky,
I thought about it for about a year before I finally decided to leave my ex (he wasn't N that I know of, just not very good for me--like a big kid). We didn't have children and it was something the marriage counselor said that clicked for me. He said: "do you want to still be married 15 years down the road AND have children with this man? He still won't hear a word you say and you'll be just as unhappy if not more."
In your case, maybe the advise would go something like "do you want to be more in debt with possibly another child..." or {insert whatever applies in your situation} In other words, there are likely ust as many reasons to leave, probably, as there are to stay. Just take your time and weigh them all and you'll know very soon what the right thing is to do. If you're already looking for single support groups, I'd say that's a key piece of evidence! And good for you!
Nobody will know you're not "divorced" yet. Besides, in my mind, it's just a piece of paper. You were probably divorced a long time ago in your heart.
The other thing to keep in mind is that Only You know what's best for you. Others can be good sounding boards, but ultimately the decision comes from within. That's because you're strong and know yourself. You do, that little voice inside is trying to be heard.
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Hiya Plucky:
I can be a real pain in the butt sometimes so no need to answer anything or comment, if you don't feel like it.
Just for you to consider.
I'm still reading way back here:
1. To stay and continue creating the childhood for your children that you wish you had had, minus witnessing a good marital relationship.
"minus witnessing a good marital relationship"
What are they witnessing then, if it's not a good marital relationship?
What are they learning? This is important.
VS
2. To leave and create a childhood for them that may, at least initially, be far from what you wish you had had because you could end up being a strained, tired, financially stressed, emotionally drained, depressed, depleted mother who hasn't done the work to tell what was her fault in the marriage and what was not.
Are you saying you're not strained at all now? Not tired? Financially ok? (probably you're better off??). Are you then emotionally topped up and happy? Are your resources all available, you feel strong, full of energy? (trying to hit the opposite of depleted here....hahaha. Am I anywhere near?? :D).
I'm going to be blunt and hope that you will believe I'm doing so to help, not to hurt you in any way.
Aren't you just co-existing ? ...... burying some of what you'd really like to say to your husband (repressing some big feelings)? ............... using a good deal of your energy/strength trying to co-exist and maintain control over some of your feelings? Maybe this is why you are struggling with this decision? Maybe your body, your emotions, your gut, your brain.......don't like all that?
How can you possibly be the best mother/provide the kind of childhood you are truly capable of providing under those conditions?
I'm really being brave here pressing "post" Plucky. But not half as brave as you. It takes courage to do either thing....stay or go.
I think you mentioned schedulling an hour for excercise for yourself?? Great idea? How about.....30 min for excercise and 30 min for number 3, way back? (finding someone objective to talk with and support you, so you don't feel so alone, no matter what you decide).
The more you do to help yourself get and feel stronger and happier......the better. No need to hurry up and decide. Either way, it makes sense to get to a point where you are the strongest, well supported, happiest mum you can be? What do you think?
Wishing you peace and strength and happiness ((((((((PLucky)))))))).
OOOOOoooooooooooooooooo (eyes squished shut icon please):
Hit "Post"! Hit "Post"!!!
Sela
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How can you possibly be the best mother/provide the kind of childhood you are truly capable of providing under those conditions?
I'm going to be blunt and hope that you will believe I'm doing so to help, not to hurt you in any way.
But not half as brave as you. It takes courage to do either thing....stay or go.
Sela, ditto from me.
Plucky, there are times when I kinda know what the right thing to do is, but don't have the strength/courage to do it, I feel too fearful, too fragile to take the right action, terrified that I was going to fail no matter what. In fact, I am going through such a period right now -- so I can completely understand how you are feeling, especially without any kind of support at all. I don't really know what one can do to get out of it. My recipe is to confront one fear at a time, to do one thing that will empower me. I see that you are doing the same, by giving yourself extra sleep and exercise.
I too have never found a T that I really liked. A mentor and the love of my life were the biggest drivers of change in my life. However, I think we need different kinds of people at different stages. A T, even someone who abused me in the end, did help me in many ways, especially by making me aware of the twisted dynamics in my life with my family, which is not something that folks other than T can do -- experts as they are in twisted behavior of twisted folks. No harm in exploring and trying, is there? I agree with Sela, you can work around your schedule to find time for help -- lack of time for 1 hour of therapy once a week does not sound like a real constraint. THink of it like jump starting a car. Once you have other sources of support lined up, you can get rid of a therapist if you are not comfortable with the idea.
DOn't worry about offending couples or never finding friends. I would want you as my friend in a heart beat if you were my neighbor! There must be others like me in the world. RIght now you are probably moving about in a fairly conservative circles, especially if you live in some distant suburb, but once you are on your own, that could change and you'd discover a whole new world of different kinds of people out there, ding many single parents.
((((((((Plucky))))))))))
Marta
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Hiya Plucky :D :D :D
So I am trying to survive on books and the board.
Great, nothing wrong with that! Until I run out of my own money because hey…..I won’t allow anyone to support me. If I had kids I might?
Surviving on books and the board is a great piece of life’s work. I’ve learned more via this board, one way or another, than I have in the 42 years preceding it. Yeah. It’s not surviving either. It’s much, much more. It’s a gift to be used. 8)
Can I say: that business about washing and ironing – my intention there was to say that you can live as ‘separate’ people in the same house. And that those household chores are part of legal stuff here, they go towards defining what a ‘marriage’ is, in the eyes of the law. That was my point…not well-made. :?
Lots of times I respond to the last one I read, get it all mixed up with ideas from someone else and then run out of steam.
Good! Great. Don’t worry about not responding. This is about you, for you. Be self-ish. “You’re worth it!” Yes, you are. You’re wonderful to read. I’m typing this totally for my own benefit, you realise that? We’re all self-shly contributing. It is not all one-way. We all learn all the time.
Let yourself off any guilt or feelings of responsibility to people who post here. It takes a while but it is okay.
Sela: :D
Aren't you just co-existing ? ...... burying some of what you'd really like to say to your husband (repressing some big feelings)?
Well heck I am!! I liked your brave post. Plucky I’m repressing some stuff to get to where I think/feel I might want to be. Stuff with my H (H who isn’t an H but who’s counting?). And I have no idea right now where that will go. Just following my nose and my feelings for a change and not beating myself up for not having the ‘life’ that I might be capable of having because …… today is where I am. I can’t be different today than what I am, but I might be different tomorrow. So that’s okay. Thinking is hard work! I’ll keep repeating that because I want to!
What are they witnessing then, if it's not a good marital relationship?
What are they learning? This is important.
Ditto Sela. Kids know the truth and are hurt by lies. Better to have the truth (and the pain) than live a false life.
Noname (hi :D):
Jung said that growth cannot occur in isolation but only through a relationship.
For an alternate view, read Alice Miller.
I’m a big Alice Miller fan. Reading ‘Paths of Life’ right now (and wishing she had a different editor for this book).
Can I have a relationship with a message board? (I think I can.) Can I have a relationship with an author like Alice Miller? (I think I can. It’s all in my head but hey….). Dorothy Rowe is one of my mentors and she doesn’t know it.
So relationships……are what we think they are I guess. Not limited to therapists. Yes? No? maybe?
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Can I have a relationship with a message board?
As you are having friendships with the people on the message board... I'd say yes! To have a relationship with a message board made me think it would be like trying to have a relationship with an ironing board!!! :lol: Heck, isn't that like N's... like having a relationship with an ironing board?
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So relationships……are what we think they are I guess. Not limited to therapists. Yes? No? maybe?
THis is second reference to ALice Miller being in contadiction to above statement. I am a great fan of Alice miller as well and I am confused by the interpretation of her presented in this thread. I see her in no way saying that relationships or therapy are not needed, but rather that a great deal of therapists are just really bad. I totally agree with her.
Of course, a beneficial relationships can be formed with anyone -- a friend or a mentor-- not with a therapist; I said so in my original post. However one of the problems with our relationships in a noninteractive situation (such as with an author, or with a strawman in our head) is that we superimpose our own biased interpretations on what they have to say, and view their works through our distorted lenses. This is why great pieces of literature have been banned through centuries -- for we get out of them what we are capable of. WHen we come from a dysfunctional family, without enough faith in our own instincts or judgement, we need a flesh and blood third party to help us out.
The problem with using our friends as that third party is that (a) most of them are totally unequipped to understand workings of twisted N minds, (b) there are limits beyond which a friend will not push the envelope, rightly so.
THis message board is a great place too but again, there are issues: (a) Most of us come here with our own baggage, big huge ones, so we often dump our own stuff on each other. (b) It is cute to say that we are all friends, best friends, whatever. In reality, one fine day I can just leave without turning back, and no one will know where I am or what happened to me -- as has happened with so many other members since I joined this board. What then happens to those I swore were my friends? (c) It is not really an individual relationship, but a group one, with its benefits and limitations. Of course I know Plucky and her situation, may be even some of her buttons. But do we really know Plucky? Did we even know that she was not Suzy the homemaker that many of us took her to be, that she would not like others seeing her that way?
Of course there are problems with therapy too. People at different stages need different kinds of help. I believe that when we are caught in the stage of self-recimination and excessive guilt, we need a therapist to help us out. Especially when we are so isolated that we lack any friends or a support network.
So relationships……are what we think they are I guess. Not limited to therapists. Yes? No? maybe?
No, relationships are what they are regardless of what we think they are.... :P
In the end, we always benefit from most non-destructive relationships -- be it with an author, a neighbor, a role model. That is not the question, right? I love this message board, but I don't find it a good substitute for real life friends or real life support. Then again, nor are my real life friends a substitute for what I find up here -- not even close.
Must we really take either/or approach to everything? Must we deny that we are real human beings with real needs, including need for a flesh and blood person who would sit next to us and listen to our woes?
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Let me qualify what I have said about therapy above.
Say there are two warring children in one room. One, X, of them is often mean, nasty, and bullying. The second one, Y, is often submissive, angry, resentful, manipulates to protect himself since he perceives himself as weak, and often accusing of the other, sometimes unfairly so.
Now introduce a third person, say a teacher, in the room. The dynamics of how these two children interact with each other and the balance of power between them depends greatly on who this third person is. Situation A: If he is always sides with X, we have an explosively destructive situation, for X is a bully. Situation B: If he always sides with Y, it is still not a satisfactory situation, for Y is a good person and knows that he is sometimes wrong, he knows that he sometimes manipulates to get his way through, he is not always right, for no one is ever always right.
If you were a mother of these two warring kids, then you’d want a teacher in that room who was fair and wholesome.
Now substitute for X and Y two warring voices in my head. Until we reach the stage where we are able to become ourselves that teacher who is fair and just to two warring factions in our own head, we have to rely on a third party to broker that balance of power between the two voices.
Few of us will ever find friends or lovers who are skilled enough to stand jury to these two voices, who are committed enough to be there day in and day out for us in spite of our vacillations and sometimes us turning against them (for remember that what X proposes, Y disposes, and these two are still parts of myself.)
If I am trapped in a destructive relationship, it is akin to being in situation A. If I am in an environment such as this message board where I am always told how horrible X is, advised to always put myself and my needs first, told that I am unconditionally supported regardless of what I do, etc. it is akin to being in situation B. To a mother, neither of these are entirely satisfactory. This is why we hear two voices in many post and when one of the voices is criticized – like don’t feel guilty about your mother etc. – we often hear a ferocious defense from the poster.
I believe that therapy is of immense help in neurosis, characterized by conflicting desires within the individual. Until I am able to stop acting in ways that are harmful to myself, it helps me to have another adult look at the situation objectively and gear my internal dialogue a more objective level. In such situations, it DOES NOT help to be told, as I often hear on this message board, that do what you think is right for you etc. because I don’t know what is right for me. My problem is that I grew up in a household where I was taught to do what was precisely wrong for me, to trust the wrong people, so what feels like the right thing is often a very wrong thing for me.
I think that in our day and age, therapy is a most obvious route to dealing with neurosis, so why not try it out? Of course there are legitimate reasons to not try it out, just as there are as many excuses to not try it out. Why would we bring up excuses? Remember, we were trained to not do anything that rocked the boat, trained to do things that were very wrong and unwholesome for us, to feel guilty for spending time, effort, and money on ourselves.
IMHO, objections to therapy are legitimate when someone has been through therapy abuse, or lives in a country where T industry functions poorly, such as in many countries with managed health care, or when someone has a very strong presence, say a mentor or a guide in one’s life, who can fill in that role of an objective observer.
I can see why it would be difficult for October, who has been subject to therapy abuse and has undergone a lot of struggle to find a good T which seems to be difficult by and large in England, because Ts under managed care appear to function as representatives of the state rather than their client; I can see why relying on friends and support system would work for Brigid, because she is not at the moment in any huge crisis and has learnt by now to not beat herself up for her shortcomings.
What is right for Brigid or October or Marta may not be right for Plucky; what seems right to Marta may not even be right for Marta, so it won't be right for Plucky. Such is the limitation of relying solely on this message board for support -- we often take generic solutions that worked for others and graft them to our situation to justify our choices.
But to dismiss therapy offhand without giving it a shot, when one is trapped in a hurtful marriage, without any friends or family to fall back on, without ever having given therapy a serious chance, as in Plucky’s situation, simply does not seem like a sound decision to me.
Self-therapy becomes a viable option only AFTER we’ve learnt to protect ourselves from being pulled in to destructive situations and say NO to abuse. Otherwise, is it not likely that the same voice in your head, which led you to run away from healthy relationships in the past, will not entice you to make similarly destructive choices again?
Of course you may find out, even after having given a serious trial to therapy, that it does not work for you. It takes a process of trial and error to find out what works for you and what doesn’t – such is the nature of the beast. For all you know, you may find out that what works for you is meditation or social service. But at that stage you will be armed with a real knowledge of who you are and why therapy doesn’t work for you, so it’d be a step ahead because you’d also have dealt with this strawman in your head who keeps raising objections whenever you try to do something different to get out of this rut, by saying you don’t have the time or whatever. But to sit at home with nothing and no one to rely upon except for this message board and those two voices in your head is to keep playing in pretty much the same ring you’ve played in all your life. As Mr. Anonymous sez, “If you keep doing what you always have done, you will end up with what you already have.”
Recommendations: Karen Horny has written a series of excellent books that may of special interest to you, especially on the tyranny of the shoulds. Another thing I’ve found very helpful in understanding life stages is the ox-herding pictures from Zen. They talk about enlightenment, but can be applied to any psychological awakening. Here’s a link.
http://www.shambhala.org/dharma/ctr/oxherding/ox1.html
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Hi Resarn! I just want to talk to Marta for a moment. I’m not ignoring your post.
Hi Marta.
Can I ask a question please? I’m confused about your last two posts here. Who are you addressing? Is it me or someone else or maybe me and Noname or Plucky or ….? I haven’t read your posts in close detail but on first reading they confuse me. I don’t know why you’re saying these things right now. Maybe I’m being thick but that won’t be a first time I promise. Is this about Plucky or is it about you? is there a problem that I don’t see here? I don’t understand. And I really dislike not understanding. Can you help please? Portia
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Hi Resarn
I sent you a Private Message but then thought maybe you won’t notice it? So this is what it said! Your post here is on Plucky's thread and I think maybe it would better put in a thread of it's own? I think you’ll get more replies that way.
If you have the board open (so you can see all the thread titles), there's a button next to the top right of the board called 'New Topic'. Press this and you can start your own thread.
Hope that’s okay for you. Welcome :D
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I can see why relying on friends and support system would work for Brigid, because she is not at the moment in any huge crisis and has learnt by now to not beat herself up for her shortcomings.
Marta, perhaps you have me confused with someone else. Just to clarify--I am a HUGE proponent of therapy. I relied on my therapist for 2 1/2 years and give him all the credit in the world for healing me. I spent most of my life saying I didn't need therapy, but once I was forced to go there and I really connected to the therapist we were seeing for marriage counseling, I continued to see him weekly until early December. I can return at any time, but for now I don't have a reason to be there and am in a good place--but largely due to him and his teaching me how to work through issues and heal from my past.
I agree with your presentation of the concept of therapy and the necessity of having an objective second or third party to help you work through the conflicts in your mind. I agree that this board is a good place to vent and perhaps find information and support, but certainly not a replacement for a trained therapist who will not let you get away with excuses and denial. I love my friends and would not have survived without their support over the last few years, but they also could not have truly helped me get beyond the grief, anger and confusion I was suffering. As I said in a previous post, using any of those remedies as a substitute for therapy would have been a band-aid approach and would not have had the lasting impact that my many hours of therapy have provided.
I believe Plucky should give herself permission to make space in her life for therapy for herself. She is dealing with a life-changing decision--not just for her, but also for her h and children. I don't believe there is a book on earth that can help you make that decision with clarity and all aspects considered. When we read support books, we take from them what we want to and leave behind those concepts which do not appeal to us.
Just my 2 cents and you get what you pay for.
Brigid
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PLucky, I would like to clarify what I meant by:
30 min for number 3, way back? (finding someone objective to talk with and support you, so you don't feel so alone, no matter what you decide).
Just someone. Not necessarily a therapist/counsellor but another person, if at all possible.
On the other hand.......I was projecting big stuff or something there because I went through the most stressful, terrifying, heart wrenching couple of years of my life.....with very little human support and I didn't die. I guess I was just hoping for better for you....for more comfort for you. I don't like thinking of you all alone in the real world. That's probably me experinecing my own pain by imagining your situation. When will I ever stop doing that??
Plucky, I hope you are having a good day today and that tomorrow will be even better.
Sela
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Marta, perhaps you have me confused with someone else.
Oh no, Brigid. I know that you are a proponent of therapy, and I also remember that you stopped seeing your therapist recently, although you still belong to this board, which is why I used you as an example. As someone who is still on the board, but not seeing a T currently.
Portia, the jung/miller comment was definitely addressed to you or whoever posted that. The rest of it was addressed to Plucky, a sort of thinking aloud, and to all of us, the way most posts on this board work.
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Hi Marta
thanks for your reply
Portia, the jung/miller comment was definitely addressed to you or whoever posted that.
I'm still a bit lost I'm afraid.
I talked about that jung/miller comment in reply to Noname who posted it. Is that who you mean by "whoever posted that"? Who do you mean? It’s clear when I post, I use my name.
I'm still not clear if you're addressing me or not. Although you have used a quote from me (the one about relationships) at the start and end of one post...., but maybe you were just musing on that line? That's okay if you were. I wasn't being particularly serious with that sentence so take it as you wish. I’m not attached to it.
I guess what I'm asking is, would you like me to reply to anything? I don't mind either way, but if you want a reply, I need to at least know what I'm replying to. Thanks.
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Hey Plucky,
I think a lot of people here (including me) urge you to see a therapist because you seem too isolated in your struggle with this decision. And it's hard to think clearly when you have a battle going in your own head.
And maybe your reasons for not doing it (too busy, can't find the time)...sound...like you're not caring for yourself.
A T won't make you do anything, or judge you. Remember, it would be for you.
And it really is okay to do something that is unequivocally just for you.
If you want it. (Likewise, advice here is free and you're free to take it or leave it too!)
(((((((((((((((Plucky))))))))))))))))
Hopalong
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Plucky: sorry I’m going way off the topic. Hope that’s okay. Take it easy.
Marta: I want to talk to you, and maybe with you, if you want to.
THis message board is a great place too but again, there are issues: (a) Most of us come here with our own baggage, big huge ones, so we often dump our own stuff on each other.
Why do people become therapists do you think?
Do you think therapists don’t have their own baggage?
We are all only human. Not perfect.
(b) It is cute to say that we are all friends, best friends, whatever. In reality, one fine day I can just leave without turning back, and no one will know where I am or what happened to me -- as has happened with so many other members since I joined this board.
Very true. People die too. They leave us, in 3D life. We know what happened (if we’re lucky) but they still go.
You can leave, you don’t have to tell anyone where you are or what happened (tricky if you fell under a bus yesterday) but while you are alive, you have a choice. You can tell people. Okay I’ll tell you the truth. Two people who have been members here have my home phone number and my cellphone number. They can call me whenever. They also have my person email. If they don’t hear from me, they can email or phone. Ditto for them, I can phone and email. Is that strange to you? It’s the truth. It’s taken a very long time for me to have enough trust in anyone to give out personal stuff like that. I’m not a very trusting person. But that’s changing.
If you want people to care about you, to notice if you leave, to care about where you are or what happens to you it’s simple but difficult: you have to care about them too. You have to trust and take big huge risks, be very vulnerable and open and honest. And reciprocal.
What then happens to those I swore were my friends?
It’s no good if you say you’re someone’s friend – they also have to agree with you, they have to agree that they are your friend. It takes two. It’s giving and receiving. Be able to receive is a huge task. Being able to take a hand of friendship takes real courage sometimes. And friendship is something that builds over time. Takes a long time.
I just felt like writing to you Marta and decided to select that part of one of your posts. Hope that’s okay. And I hope you’re okay.
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Greetings! I've done therapy in my practice for 20 years and have been in therapy myself for 30 years. Absolutely therapists have " baggage" and there are reason why we chose this profession. I don't want to say all therapist go into it for their own convenient therapy- some do and that's unethical and crazy- rather, most of us have personal experience with many issues. A good therapist never tells clients what to think or do, and should not be sharing own personal experiences- all counter therapy, damaging, no boundaries, and unethical. I wouldn't;t be the healthier- is ongoing!- and more whole person with better skills and understanding that I am today without my own therapy. I also believe all therapist should have ongoing therapy themselves for what is called " vicarious trauma"- all therapists hear the most abusive, horrible and painful experiences of people all day and are traumatized- whether they realize and accept it or not. If we are not dealing with this we become traumatized long term and suffer burn out and PTSD- and end up being useless for your clients. I hope you consider therapy and shop around for a good therapist- don't pick the first one you come across. Talk to other people in therapy, call the college of psychologists( or whoever is in your area) and get names of ones who specialize in issues you want to explore, " interview " them etc. Hugs, Moira
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Hey everyone!
Speaking of people coming and going.....where IS Plucky????
Everything all right? I just noticed we haven't had your input here for a bit....Hope all is well!
((((((((((((((((((((Plucky))))))))))))))))))))))))))
Surrounded
To ALL: Great posts, by the way----interesting dialogue! Love it!
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Portia,
Your comments to me are a non-issue. I have neither left nor do I intend to leave anytime soon, at least not without telling my friends. By saying" I may leave" I am speaking rhetorically about a phenomenon I have observed on the board in sudden departure of at least as many as seven to ten long-standing members without a word in the few months I've been here, not *I as in Marta*. I am characterizing what I observe to be the nature of this board, not my personal inclinations.
I love this board and value it for much mroe than just venting -- I consider it a place to heal. We heal by sharing our stories, by expressing to each other that we care, by providing support once we express our decision to follow a certain path. I care as much about what happens to some of you, especially Plucky, as I care about my real life friends.
BUT.
IMHO, this board is NOT the place to debunk our defenses or face our shortcomings. We are excellent in pointing out to each other all the flaws in the Ns in our lives, but not in ways in which we may be hurting ourselves and others. Sometimes it may even prove to be an excellent hiding place from our problems, because you can find support for pretty much any position here. This is not a constraint of this particular board, but rather of this medium. A spaceship will transport you to outer space, but will not take you from Texas to Idaho. Similarly, this message board can do wonders for us, but it is not the correct venue for penetrating inner work that must be done in moving forward from abusive relationships.
I firmly believe that it is necessary to face our own shortcomings in order to grow, and that a committed individual relationship and a socratic dialiogue goes a long way in doing that. If we are lucky enough to have a skilled friend or a mentor or a spouse to do that, great, but if not, I'd say roll up your sleeve (as in anyone's sleeve, not Portia's..) and start exploring other options, including the most popular one of our time, therapy.
Jung comment was addressed to whoever posted it -- I didn't scroll up to see the name but now I see that it was Anon. I thought that you were reiterating the same position.
Surrender:
Speaking of people coming and going.....where IS Plucky????
Surrender, good question.
As for Plucky, she's probably embarassed by so much attention being focussed on her, feeling too pressured by all that is being said, probably feeling misunderstood for much of we say is kinda of off base and doesn't touch a cord with her. But at the same time I hope that she is feeling the care, warmth, concern, and support for her in the air, and will come out and holler at us if we are annoying her or violating her boundaries in any way, instead of just hibernating with her books.
Plucky, many hugs to you. Love, Marta
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Marta, thanks for replying and giving me the opportunity to express my self.
You said:
Portia,
Your comments to me are a non-issue.
Can you imagine how that sentence makes me FEEL?
Not how I think Marta – FEEL.
Any idea?
How do you think I feel reading that?
About what you said:
As for Plucky, she's probably embarassed by so much attention being focussed on her, feeling too pressured by all that is being said, probably feeling misunderstood for much of we say is kinda of off base and doesn't touch a cord with her.
Marta, for pity’s sake! How Plucky feels and thinks is entirely up to Plucky. I consider it respectful to let people speak for themselves and not make assumptions about how they think and feel.
And this:
But at the same time I hope that she is feeling the care, warmth, concern, and support for her in the air, and will come out and holler at us if we are annoying her or violating her boundaries in any way, instead of just hibernating with her books.
Instead of just hibernating with her books???????
You make incredible assumptions about people Marta. I consider this a violation. And it's a violation I have made myself on this board more times than I wish to remember. (But if need be, I'm willing to go back and rehash it.)
Can you guess how I feel now?
Have a heart Marta.
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((((((((((((((Marta)))))))))))))))) (((((((((((((((Portia)))))))))))))))))
Will you come in the kitchen a minute?
I'm making chocolate chip cookies.
.....
It's okay to be wrong. It's okay to be hurt or offended, to get off the rails.
This is a right place, a good place, a healing place. The right intention's what matters
and I know you both have that. I'll bet you my lunch you both do. People like you
are why I keep coming here, day after day.
Some days we're just going to misunderstand each other or get on each other's
nerves. Even have personality conflicts. But remember, we're all here because back
somewhere, someone wouldn't let us have a voice. So keep on talking and working
it out... I know you can do that because you both are intelligent and good.
Somebody forgive somebody? Somebody say sorry? Both of you feel better?
You can have cookies anyway, I'm making extra.
Love,
Hops
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((((((Hopalong))))))
Hiya Hop. I sent you a PM. Maybe I should've thought about that first (I should've) because you and I don't PM and in a way, that's a kind of violation, a forced communication perhaps. Sorry. Please ignore the PM if you want to. Okay? I don't need a reply and hey! It's your choice! No bad feelings from me.
Just want to say thanks for your post and love those cookies! Seriously, nobody is going to die here, at least not from words on the board. Okay?
I'll just wait for a response before I say any more. Or maybe not! Haven't decided yet and i might change my mind :D take care
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I changed my mind.
Marta, I have another question. No, two questions!
a phenomenon I have observed on the board in sudden departure of at least as many as seven to ten long-standing members without a word in the few months I've been here, not *I as in Marta*.
Now you have me reeeeally curious!
Q (1) how do you know, as a fact, that those 7 to 10 members have left?
Q (2) does “not *I as in Marta*” mean that you have been here as a member under another (or other) name(s)?
Oh darn, that raises another question of course….
Q (3) if that is correct, would you tell us what your previous name(s) was/were please? Then I might have a grasp of our relationship as it might have been in the past on the board. That would be so honest if you wanted to do that. I’ve always been Portia, apart from the odd guest posting way back, and a short spell as a guest called Luego. Long time ago, old board pre-simple machines forum. Let’s not go back to that. It was so …. crazy-making. Wasn't it?
What do you say Marta, want to be honest and open and vulnerable? I won’t bite and I won’t attack. I promise.
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changed my mind.
Marta, I have another question. No, two questions!
a phenomenon I have observed on the board in sudden departure of at least as many as seven to ten long-standing members without a word in the few months I've been here, not *I as in Marta*.
Now you have me reeeeally curious!
Q (1) how do you know, as a fact, that those 7 to 10 members have left?
Q (2) does “not *I as in Marta*” mean that you have been here as a member under another (or other) name(s)?
Oh darn, that raises another question of course….
Q (3) if that is correct, would you tell us what your previous name(s) was/were please? Then I might have a grasp of our relationship as it might have been in the past on the board. That would be so honest if you wanted to do that. I’ve always been Portia, apart from the odd guest posting way back, and a short spell as a guest called Luego. Long time ago, old board pre-simple machines forum. Let’s not go back to that. It was so …. crazy-making. Wasn't it?
What do you say Marta, want to be honest and open and vulnerable? I won’t bite and I won’t attack. I promise.
Portia,
No, I better not express what I honestly think of this post......
Suffice to say that I will not engage with any further -- we are simply not communicating and I don't participate in discussions that are pulled to this level.
Peace, Marta
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Hi Marta
I notice that you have edited your post as I read it now; I am reading it for the first time now so have not seen anything you might have said previously. This is what I read now:
Portia,
No, I better not express what I honestly think of this post......
Suffice to say that I will not engage with any further -- we are simply not communicating and I don't participate in discussions that are pulled to this level.
Peace, Marta
I think you can express what you want to here. Seriously, that’s what I think. It’s a bit like the freedom of speech debate (which is a hot topic over here atm). I think if you choose to express opinions (or publish cartoons!) which people find offensive or abusive, then you have to deal with their response. (I don’t think violence is an acceptable response to free speech though, re the cartoons.)
But this is a message board and nobody gets physically hurt here. I’ve said things here in the past which I would now classify as abusive. I made mistakes and I am sorry that I said those things. I will apologise openly and genuinely to anyone who wants an apology from me and who I want to apologise to (apologies and their acceptance require an agreement from both parties). I’ve learned to be more circumspect with my comments and opinions, but that said, I’m still learning. Aren’t we all?
I say all this and it might seem long-winded (does it?) because I think it’s, well, sort of sad (trying to think of a better word but can’t) that you say you better not express what you honestly think of my post. Why is it sad? Because if you can’t honestly say what you think, well, that’s a form of Voicelessness, maybe. Kind of self-imposed? Maybe?
I mean, what’s the worse that could happen if you did express yourself honestly? I made a promise that I wouldn’t attack. I try to keep my promises (although I am only human and might make a mistake). And hey, it’s a message board. I won’t die and you won’t die.
If we keep talking we might get somewhere positive. If we stop talking, we might have some silent ‘thing’ going on, like a feud.
If you really don’t want to engage, that’s okay. I agree that somehow we’re not communicating. I take my half of the responsibility for that.
When you say discussions that are pulled to this level, I don’t know what you mean, honestly.
If you don’t want to talk to me (engage) that’s okay with me, that’s your choice. I don’t understand it. But that’s okay too; I can’t understand everything, even though I might be too curious for my own good sometimes. I mean, death is interesting and I’m curious about it, but I’m not going to try it before it happens. I’m not that daft.
Anyway, hope you don’t mind me replying to you Marta. And I hope if want to engage, you will. We all have the right to change our minds about anything. Thank goodness. Take care.
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Hi Bean
About feeling ick (what a great word that is!).
I felt icky recently with a neighbour. I felt quite odd after he left, I felt bad and disorientated and like something was my fault. It lasted overnight but the next day I sorted it out in my head and the ick lifted. He’s a psychiatrist btw so I felt doubly ick because my internals told me ‘hey he knows what he’s talking about, you should listen and respect his views’. Ick! Nope, I should listen to my good intuition that was yelling ‘this is nonsense, he’s being defensive and weird and he feels under attack’. Was he projecting to me? Or was I introjecting (is that a term? It is now!) his attitude? Maybe the latter. Maybe I decided to stand up for what he was attacking, in my head, even if I think I didn’t show it.
Tricky stuff, communication.
Isn’t this a great place though? Take care.
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Portia & Marta,
I know this is not my discussion, but I'll throw in my 2 cents (and remember, you get what you pay for) anyway. I'm not sure what would be gained by continuing to discuss the symantics of your various viewpoints. I find that it generally just spirals to a lower and lower point and one or both end up angry and hurt. It doesn't matter who I might agree or disagree with, I don't see the discussion as being productive and it certainly doesn't do much for Plucky--who is the person we were trying to help here in the first place.
Sorry for sticking my nose in where it probably doesn't belong, but I've been a part of these struggles in the past and it tends to lead no where. Agree to disagree.
Peace,
Brigid
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So, Plucky, how are you doing? Still sending you support and clarity.
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Begging to differ.......no offense Brigid:
Just that this struck me:
I'm not sure what would be gained by continuing to discuss the symantics of your various viewpoints.
Almost seems like you're asking for silence.....for others to stop talking......saying there's nothing to be gained..... (by who? you or them?)
I find that it generally just spirals to a lower and lower point and one or both end up angry and hurt.
That's for you......your experience. For Portia and Marta.....it may be different. There might be something to be gained by continuing to talk. They may end up working things out. How can things work out if no one talks? Who decides when to stop?
I don't see the discussion as being productive
That's what you see. That doesn't mean everyone sees it that way. Sorry, again, no offense Brigid. I see some positives.....maybe others do too.
and it certainly doesn't do much for Plucky--who is the person we were trying to help here in the first place.
Ok.......I don't know what the discussion is doing for Plucky or anyone else. Are you sure you do?
I also do not mean to sound like I'm on some kind of high horse, only to point out that I have made similar comments in the past and have learned by that.
I think it's ok if the thread goes off topic some...it happens. I don't know what everyone else thinks.
Ok. I'll put a sock in it. :D
Sela
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OK guys, sorry I got in the middle. Didn't mean to ruffle feathers, actually just wanted to calm some--I guess I did a bad job. Marta had already indicated that she wanted the discussion to end and Portia was continuing to engage. I'm sure it is just my sensitivity and I will butt out.
I do wish we would hear from Plucky, however and am concerned for how she is doing.
Brigid
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Plucky,
I am sending you all the best wishes in the world. I miss you!
Love, Marta
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Marta hi welcome back to this thread.
I agree with Marta, I miss you too Plucky. Hope you’re okay and will return if and when you want to. Take care.
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Hi Brigid, thanks for your post. I dallied about whether to reply or not and then thought it would be rude not to.
I thought about it not being your discussion. I think a lot about stuff (I am INTJ). Thing is, you’re commenting on the posts between Marta and me and I think that’s okay. You’re free to comment, we all are. No problems! You’re entitled.
I know Sela and Bean have commented too but I want to reply only to you here, I think that’s fair don’t you?
I don’t think I was discussing semantics, I don’t think I was expressing a viewpoint as such. I think I was trying to connect with Marta, to relate to what is going on in her mind with her posts. Not the discussion, but what is motivating the posts. I do that, all the time.
To me, it’s not about agreeing or disagreeing, it’s not about who is ‘right’ or ‘wrong’. It’s more about ‘why’.
It’s about understanding why we do what we do, why we think what we think. And feel maybe.
I’m not hurt or angry. Okay yes, I did feel something and I wanted Marta to say how she thought I might feel. But that wasn’t to shout about my feelings: it was done deliberately to check out what Marta felt. Empathy check if you like. Now in saying that I could hit a big nerve. Whoo! Ns don’t have empathy right? But it’s not just Ns who might not show empathy. We can get wrapped up in our own heads so much that we fail to react to what is actually happening and instead react to what we think is happening. I did that loads of times. I’m doing it now, reacting to what I think has happened. I’m trying to do it with some clarity and calm and reflecting. Doesn’t mean I might not say something a bit off, a bit weird, hey I’m only human. But I’m not hurt or angry. I am still trying to communicate though. I don’t give up easily and that, in itself, may not be a good thing for me. I might get punched one of these days, on the street. But no-one gets hurt here.
Interesting about:
Plucky--who is the person we were trying to help
Are we all only helpers when we attempt to validate / advise / instruct / guide? Or are we helping when we tell our truth? Or both? Doesn’t it help me to write this? Doesn’t it help you to write your comments?
Maybe it helps Plucky to read our posts too? Maybe this recent exchange of posts helps other people? Is that possible?
I’m thinking deeply about all this Brigid. It’s the way I am.
Sorry for sticking my nose in where it probably doesn't belong,
I think you can comment on what you want to. The more people talk, the more they understand each other I think. Which I think is good.
but I've been a part of these struggles in the past and it tends to lead no where. Agree to disagree.
Maybe people don’t stick around to see it through? Maybe they feel they can’t stick it out? It’s hard work, thinking and expressing ourselves. Easier to throw up our hands and walk away. Much easier.
Peace. I’ve just been pondering ‘peace’ as a sign-off. How do we achieve peace? By talking. Not by lining up our tanks at our borders and silently glaring at each other (I’m thinking Egypt and Israel of old). That’s not peace. That’s silent hostility I think. Peace is achieved by genuine understanding and agreement.
Anyway, I’ve probably bored the pants off everyone if you got this far. If you did, thanks for reading. Now I better go and do stuff. Been here way too long again.
Sorry no, you replied later on:
Marta had already indicated that she wanted the discussion to end and Portia was continuing to engage.
Umm. That lays the blame with me eh? I’m the baddie here. Let’s not go there: that is my *feeling* about those words. That’s my immediate emotional reaction. So let’s look at the reality here: Marta wrote to me, I replied. Isn’t that okay, to reply to someone? Or should I just read and shut up? Rhetorical question (I’m still feeling here and letting you know my feelings). Then I wrote to Bean. I didn’t continue to engage with Marta. I stopped at my reply. Then you posted. So who was continuing what here?
I’ve not posted until today because I’d thought I’d reflect on the words.
And I’ve welcomed Marta back here because I can do that. If Marta wants to change her mind and talk to me, she can. If not, fine. I won’t go back and rehash her posts because there’s no point to me, without her participation. I won’t push it. But I haven’t said that I won’t talk to Marta. I won’t question her and so on but I will be civil and say hello etc.
I’ve been talking a lot about Marta here, indirectly, in reply to you Brigid. I’m not expecting Marta to reply because I’m talking to you. But Marta is free to do as she wishes, and so are you. And so am I.
Sorry this is so long but I don’t have time to make it shorter right now. I do have stuff to do.
Bye for now.
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If it's all the same to you Portia, I'd rather just drop this. I don't get anything out of these kinds of engagements except anxiety and I don't want that. Maybe my personality is just not well suited to this kind of help environment. It was not my intent to "blame" anyone for anything, but just to move on. My fault, my personality flaw, whatever. Peace is what I aim for. I've had enough anxiety and tension in my lifetime.
Ciao,
Brigid
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Hi Brigid, your choice.
I do think it's easier on a message board than in real life though. The only way out is through and so on; or - neuroses are always a substitute for legitimate suffering. I believe those ideas work. Stuffing it won't solve it.
And you can always change your mind if you want to. Take care. Portia
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Dear Brigid,
I hope you're just exiting a thread, not the board?
I would truly miss your serene voice and wise counsel.
Blessings and love (so hope you'll be here still wherever you like),
Hopalong
PS--you're my same-age, hope-for-the-future role model, you know!
Thanks for all the wise messages and good solid thinking.
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Hi everybody.
I'm sorry I didn't get a chance to post before I went out of town. I was thinking of bagging the trip until the last minute and then decided to go. I had a great time and had some alone time and me time. I am sorry my abrupt absence had people thinking I left for some reason. I thought about you all and was sorry I didn't get to say, so long.
So I am back and trying to read up to date. Please, my friends, don't fight! You are all wonderful and possibly too intelligent, articulate and perfectionist. I will say one thing - that I really, truly, am not Suzy Homemaker. If I were, I would proudly admit it! Nor am I hibernating with books! Although, that sounds lovely.
Plucky
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HOORAY! Glad you're okay, Plucky!
Welcome back!
Hopalong
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Hiya Plucky hon
Glad to hear you had a safe trip...
Hope you gained some more clarity and are feeling positive.
Take care
H&H xx
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Thank you everyone for the great wishes and for not being annoyed that my silence triggered some speculation and worry. I would never just stop coming up to this board on purpose, but it does feel good, in a naughty sort of way, to know that someone missed me and worried about me!
The trip was something I agonised over. It was an opportunity to relax and have fun. I was afraid to do it! I guess I feel like the little boy with his finger in the dike. If I move, or change anything, the whole thing will crash in!
Well it didn't. My kids were ok, the plane didn't crash...I was able to relax a little and see how tense I am. Of course I thought a bit about the situation with H but I also tried to vacation from that as well.
Did I make progress? I decided that I will, maybe, talk to him and see if he will go into therapy with me. Since my own judgement, and his too, is not reliable, I think I'd like to work things out with someone else. And then if we split, I will not feel the mixed feelings I have.
I just want to address the concerns that people have had about some of the postings. Sometimes people say things I don't agree with up here. I really find these comments useful, because sometimes only then I can see what I really think! The only thing I don't like on the board is when someone is too pushy on a sensitive spot or, in the pretense of being logical or correcter than thou, starts to berate or make personal comments or instructions to others. (I do not mean anything that has been said to me on this thread - this has all been fine.) I do have a great aversion to conflict up here - I guess I feel like a little child watching her parents argue and wondering if they are going to split up. It bothers me and I just want it to end now. Even though I suppose it has a function for others to work things out.
Plucky
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Did I make progress? I decided that I will, maybe, talk to him and see if he will go into therapy with me. Since my own judgement, and his too, is not reliable, I think I'd like to work things out with someone else. And then if we split, I will not feel the mixed feelings I have.
Plucky, that sounds like an A1 decision to me! IMHO, you couldn't have made a better one!
As for the "disappearance," you know what happened to the boy who cried wolf.....? :P
Take care, Marta
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Plucky I think you've made the best possible and a very mature decision.
Therapy will help you communicate and there truly may be breakthroughs--new patterns you learn together--that make a huge difference. Or if not, the improved communication would help the rest go more kindly.
What a good thing, and a fair thing, to do.
That's who you are.
As to us sputtering away a bit on the board...made me nervous too. First I was sure I was being outed as an N, then I thought I'd hurt people's feelings, etc, etc. But I think we've weathered it okay.
:D Just occured to me that maybe this is what it's like sometimes with siblings! I always wanted more.
Hopalong
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A vacation! What a great idea!
Good to hear from you. I have been watching this thread with interest, wondering where you were. It's definitely been a lively conversation here.
One I am sure we have all learned something from. 8)
Anyway, just checking in to say hey!
Take care.
Surrounded
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Hey!
Marta, Waitasec. I didn't cry wolf. I didn't decide to disappear. I just ran out of time to log on before I left. I thought I'd have a chance to log on during the week but it didn't work out. I also came very close to not going. I really wanted, needed a break but it just didn't seem sensible to go away with my husband, given the situation. In the end I was lured by the chance to have a break and swept away by the inertia of it all. Then I had to rush to get ready.
If you mean that I will not be missed next time I don't log on for a while, well ok. I know that I miss people who don't log on or who go away for good. I feel a connection. And if I admit that it feels nice to be missed, it doesn't mean I want to make people worry.
Plucky
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It IS like a funny sort of family here! :P
"But you didn't CALL and we didn't know where you WERE..." :lol:
I'm chortling, it's goofy.
(But I do think one is free to vanish from an online board.)
If we're worrying about somebody we'll have to deal with it...
(I worry about Bloopsy a lot)...
But it's also such a nice reminder of the real caring that's going on here.
Just amazing, this invention. Never understood it before and boy is this an example
of technology put to good use...
I'm so grateful to have found all of you.
Love, ((((((((everybody)))))))))
Hops
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Plucky,
I didn't decide to disappear.
I wasn't suggesting that you did! :(
It was me being naughty and mischievious this time. I guess I said it the wrong way. I am sorry.
If you mean that I will not be missed next time I don't log on for a while, well ok.
How about changing your name to goose, a very silly one at that? :P
I know that I miss people who don't log on or who go away for good. I feel a connection.
I know! I really miss Bunny and Anna and Amethyst. And where is Davidp?
Xoxoxoxo, Marta
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Hi Plucky. :D How are you doing then? I’m away after today too, until next week. Mind you there will be a PC there….. but I’ll try not to use it. I might try talking to the people I’m with instead! Yes I will.
Hi Marta, re:
I know! I really miss Bunny and Anna and Amethyst. And where is Davidp?
I find the PM function really useful for contacting people who may be reading but not posting. May be of help to you?
Take care all.
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Hi Plucky:
Glad you had a chance to get away and take a break. That sounds just wonderful! Also....glad you've made a decision about what to do next. That always feels so good, doesn't it? For me it does. I don't like limbo. I hope things will be resolved and work out for you Plucky. Will keep you in my prayers.
By the way, it's ok to check in and out of this hotel at will (heehee....may I take your bags madam?? :lol:).
(((((Plucky))))
Sela
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By the way, it's ok to check in and out of this hotel at will (heehee....may I take your bags madam??
My baggage? You're welcome to it!
Plucky
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hahahahaha! :D :lol: :D :lol:
Load 'em on, Pluck, got so much of my own, I'll hardly notice anyhow!!
:D Sela
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I have left my narcissist husband three times over the course of 15 years. Count them. And every time there were what seemed to be good reasons that I had to come back. Losing my job. Not being able to afford it on my own. Having left my child behind and being crushed by that. And I just wish that once I'm gone, I could remember how bad it is.
I had a therapist once who said, if you don't like the way he ties his shoes, that's a good enough reason to not live with him. And living with a narcissist is slow, consistent suicide as I am sure you know. Why do we think we have to have a good enough reason to not be unhappy?
I am hating my life now. Hating myself. Hating everything and everyone, even though I have three children. They are all that keeps me alive. Otherwise it wouldn't be worth it. I am completely hopeless and don't know if I have the raw energy that it will take to extricate myself from this one more time. They say it takes an average of 7 attempts for an abused woman to finally get out of one of these. I don't know if I have one more attempt in me, much less 7. And then I have to ask myself, how has he been able to take my will to live away? I guess he has actually succeeded in making me the most unimportant person in the world, so insignificant that my life doesn't even mean anything to me anymore.
If you can, get out now and make sure that you make your new life sustainable, no matter what happens. And always, always, remember how it really is so that you are never tempted to go back. Write it down. Tell as many people as you can so that going back is not an option. The only way to survive a narcissist is to escape. And maybe beyond survival there is a chance that we will find some life.
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((((((((Suzan))))))))))))
Welcome. I found your post to be beyond sad. Would you like to talk more?
NOBODY should feel the way you do. I know how the N's use our children to get us, believe me...that is the crux of my situation. But there is always a way to get out of your misery. Always. Open to that possibility, please. There are lots of us who are living proof of that!!! Don't "go small" in your mind. Expand....there is room for everything and every dream to become real in this world. Believe it, hope for it.
I'm listening.
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(((((((((((((((Suzan)))))))))))))))))))
I left my husband twice as well and this is IT! Three times (it doesn't have to be 7)
If you feel as strongly about your children as I do, leave for their sake and PLEASE, PLEASE read the thread (I think it's in unchosen or here) about "do you wish your non would have left?"
So many people who grow up with one horrible parent end up with a worse relationship with the one that didn't protect them (or that's how I get they see it). My mom CHOSE to stay with my alcoholic, abusive father and I wished so many times she would have left, or AT LEAST stood up for/protected us!!!
I have forgiven her, but it's taken a LOOOOOOOONG time.
Living with an N does lead a person to seriously doubt themselves. If you can't get in a better situation b/c you think you deserve it, let your kids be your motivation...Protect them.
Sending you light and strength,
Movinon
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Hi Suzan,
I think I know how you feel. My heart goes out to you. My situation is not nearly as bad. I'm not in a position to push anyone to do what I don't feel ready to do, but I can say that after posting things about my H and then saying he wasn't so bad, it was helpful, if embarrassing, to have people point out that the things he had done were actually that bad.
Thank you for your advice - I do want to make sure I will never look back with regret, whichever way this goes.
Maybe the one thing you need to do now is to document what happens, just for you, and even for anyone who needs to know in future. Write down everything, you can do it here, even if it does not seem so bad. Part of being beaten down by Ns is to doubt your own judgement and to minimize harm done to you, then to feel guilty about that tiny little rebellion you were able to mount.
Having it all down in black and white will really help to keep you from changing the past in order to live with yourself today. And coming up to the board to get others' reactions to what he does can help you sort out what is bad and how bad, and what is not. A lot of the advice will be what, deep down, you already know. It never hurts to have validation.
It might be a good idea also to think about how this is impacting your children. How are they behaving? Do they behave differently when your H is not around? Do they have inexplicable reactions to certain things? Are they acting out anywhere? Do they avoid being at home? Do they worry about you? Do they stay to themselves?
It is understandable that you cannot feel anything for anyone now. You sound beaten down, tired, even depressed. Your feelings will come back and you will come alive again. Possibly the first one you feel, will be anger.
Wishing you strength and righteous anger
Plucky
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Dear Suzan:
I felt pain for you too after reading your post. I'm so sorry that this has been so very hard. You have done some things right, I'm sure. One is reaching out here. Good for you! I bet there are other things too. Make that list too! It's important!
How about.....little wee steps?? You don't have to try to resolve everything at once eh. Even thinking of the first step in a plan can be such a relief.......like you are doing something to help the situation?
I hope you will keep posting......talk some more as Mum suggested. Also how about telling yourself one good thing about you every day. eg. "I love my children". That's a good and wonderful thing about you, isn't it?
Some mothers don't seem to care at all. It's so sad.
Another: "I've done it before, I can do it again and this time for keepers!"
Anything positive that you decide to repeat to yourself on a daily basis will help you to start to believe in yourself again. The trick is repetition.
(((((((((((((Suzan)))))))))))))
Welcome.
Sela
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Dear Suzan,
I am so sorry.
Please don't let go of your right to live.
Please don't.
All the steps people are mentioning here are wonderful ones.
I only want to add that if you feel hopeless, please also in some way connect with 3-D people in your vicinity too. The wisdom, kindness and patience of this board is an amazing well of help...but when the pain is turning to numbness and the numbnes to thoughts that your life isn't worth living...you need to understand you are probably seriously endangered by depression...
So will you call a hotline, make an appointment with a counselor, please????
You are worth it, no matter what your N has told you, and no matter whether you have begun to echo his voice inside yourself. There's also a part of you that knows better...the part that cried out here...I am in pain and I don't deserve this!
Please, listen to that part. It's MORE REAL THAN THE REST.
Please make those calls.
And welcome here,
Hopalong