Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: movinon on February 03, 2006, 10:41:21 AM
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Okay, I'm going crazy here!! He's STILL showering with our 6-year old daughter. SHe just came back from an overnight with him and was somewhat reluctant to say, but he is still doing it despite warnings from therapists and his (friend) lawyer.
I'm really starting to HATE this man. In his mind, no one can tell GOD (himself) what to do.
I also spoke to my son from a previous marriage about not having visits with him anymore. I told him that I wanted to protect him from any more harm and that's the reason I was going back to the women's DV services. I asked if he remembered any abuse when we lived together and he recalled an incident that I didn't even remember. My screwed-up husband pulled him out of the shower and out of the bathroom by his ear!! I felt like a knife had gone through my heart.
I'd like to hear from any of you if it seems like I'm making a big deal out of nothing - especially the males on this thread. I want to be as balanced as I can, but I've been in the abuse and manipulation cycle for so long, that sometimes I just don't know.
desperately,
movinon
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My god, Movinon. NO you're not over-reacting!!!!!!!!!!
What he's doing is borderline sexual abuse of a minor!!!!!!!!!!
I pray to heaven not across the borderline.
KEEP FIGHTING TO RIGHT THIS, BECAUSE YOU ARE RIGHT!
MudPup! Longtire! NotEasy! (Who'm I forgetting?) Help her, fellas!
(((((((((Movinon))))))))) ((((((((((((((((Movinon's precious little girl)))))))))))))))))))))))
Hops
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Hi movinon,
I went back over your posts and I'm not really too clear on why you would think you are over reacting. You say he is a sex addict and raped you and hid money from you and trashed your belongings and people you trust tell you he is a sociopath.
Now none of that means he is molesting your daughter, but I don't think you should wait to find out. If he was a perfectly normal guy what he is doing might be out of the ordinary but not necessarily sick. But he's not normal so you have to assume the worst and do everything you can to protect her.
Forget, if you haven't already, any idea of a collaborative diviorce. Not sure what your financial situation is but its cheaper in the long run to get a good lawyer who will make sure he pays you what you are entitled. And a good lawyer will limit his visitation as much as possible. You should compile notes and photos and every kind of documentary evidence you can to use in court. Keeping contemporaneous notes of conversations and events is very helpful and carries a lot of weight in court.
Seems like someone told you on another thread that Ns are very good in court. Perhaps some are but I believe most do very poorly when confronted with a mountain of evidence. They do well when we play on their field, and let it become a he said/she said narrative. If they have to answer for bizarre e-mails and letters and witnessed misbehaviors then their narrative of lies comes crashing down around them. That is why you need a competent attorney and even more importantly you need to have the instinct to crush him. No second guessing yourself or moments of sympathy when he starts whimpering. As much as possible, can the hatred and rage and just become an emotionless grim mother determined to smash the bug who is threatening your daughter and who treated you like dirt.
I want to be as balanced as I can
Once you have determined that this man is evil and a threat to you and your children you have no moral or legal obligation to be balanced toward him whatsoever, anymore than you should be balanced toward a mad dog.
So are you over reacting? No, not at all. I must admit you have provided only meager information about the jerk but what you have provided is extremely creepy and it sounds as though he should not only be divorced but tossed in state prison for a good long time as well.
mudpup
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Hi again movinon,
Somehow, when I made that last post I missed the part about him ADMITTING to raping you, hitting you, holding you hostage and strolling about in front of the kids with a shotgun threatening to shoot himself.
Not only would I not say you are over reacting, it seems to me it would be rather hard to over react to this psycho.
Is he physically threatening you at this point? If he is be very careful about a restraining order. They seem to set these kind of whackos off and they are of no value if they are intent on doing something bad.
What is this jerks arrest record if any?
mud
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Mud,
He has NO arrest record. By all outside accounts, he's a fine, upstanding man in therapy helping other men recover and get in touch with their emotions (bs,bs,bs!!!!) He's got a following!!! I called the police on him once and they told him to go sleep it off at a neighbor's house (after he slammed my ankle repeatedly in the door). As soon as the police drove off, he was back. He is not physically threatening me, but I have not dropped the bomb on him yet that he cannot have visits with my son or his daughter as often as he has been. My father just died 2 weeks ago and I suspect he thinks I've just been in mourning. (He came around the funeral being a big drama queen).
On the side of evidence, I'm afraid I only have friends, neighbors, and relatives that could corroborate his "wierdness." WE have been to numerous therapists that I'm hoping will also validate that he admitted to some of these things in their offices. My adult daughter, who lived with him for 7 years HATES him and I know can attest to LOTS of things he has done, but do you think this will hold water?
It will all come to a head after Monday when I meet with my lawyer.
Marta - Just read your post. Talk about re-victimizing the victims! I was thinking along the lines of PROVING he abused my older kids (then why wouldn't he abuse the younger one?) As I have been reading, a person who is a batterer is way more likely to be a sexual abuser. If I can give a good argument for battering (especially the children), then hopefully the evaluators will use that in the sexual abuse posibility determination.
Thanks for the support and validation.
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Hi Movinon
He's STILL showering with our 6-year old daughter. SHe just came back from an overnight with him and was somewhat reluctant to say,
I don't know the answer to this, but I'd like to ask it:
What would happen if your daughter told the above to a teacher at school? Or a social worker, the police etc etc.
If she's telling you this, reluctantly, what isn't she telling you?
Maybe you can solve this through child protection of some sort, depends where you are, how the system works?
Take care. She needs a loving mom like you. (((movinon)))
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Hi movinon,
Let me just say I have no experience in family court, only civil courts where you have the options of jury trials and the standards of evidence may be different.
Having said that however, the witnesses and evidence that hold water are the ones who have credibility. That is why level headed, unemotional testimony and contemporaneous notes are so important. They demonstrate credibility. Friend's and neighbor's testimony absolutely will hold water if they have been eyewitnesses to his insanity, especially if they have no ax to grind. If your adult daughter is calm and unemotional I am sure her testimony will carry considerable weight.
I'm not sure on the testimony of therapists. Presumably it is usually covered by therapist-client privelege, with possibly some leeway if criminal behavior is involved. Joint therapy is even more complicated. A lawyer can tell you about that.
Any police reports are useful as well, whether he was arrested or not.
If your attorney is sharp you have nothing to fear from his followers or his reputation. They can't testify to what has actually gone on in your home, only eyewitnesses can. And your lawyer's job will be to make him look like a hypocrite and phony so that his lilly white facade is shown to be just a ploy to cover his real personality.
There is no guarantee you won't get a lousy judge or your lawyer won't screw it up but if we only did what we had a guarantee for we would still be sitting in our cribs sucking our thumbs. Just never forget that despite his bravado, he will be scared to death through this whole thing of losing face and just plain losing. As scared as you may be never forget he is more scared. Just stay on offense and make him squirm. They can't win on defense, because there is no defense for their behavior.
I'm sorry to hear about your father. That must be doubly tough with all this going on.
BTW, I'm a little slow sometimes; could you go through once more just how many kids are involved, how old and who their parents are. Your six year old daughter is the only one he is the parent of, correct?
God bless and be careful.
mud
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Mud - Now I'm feeling fearful of putting even more on here. The way he "watched-over" things and was so hyper-vigilant still freaks me out. If I put more details, he may get a jump on things if he sees this board. I know I've already given a lot of info., but I figure he lives in denial and can figure it's not him being talked about.
Oh, what the hell! He could go back and read my posts and know it's me by the language I use. The 6 yo is his and I have a 13 and 18 yo from my previous marriage. My 18 yo is EXTREMELY reliable and stable - she will be the validictorian when she finishes high school this year and is a MODEL citizen. She lives in another state with her dad and step-mom (moved out a couple of years ago b/c of the chaos).
One other thing I wanted to mention is that I KNOW he will say it was a mutually abusive relationship because I FOUGHT BACK. I say back b/c he always started the violence and I didn't run, I hit back. In retrospect, I can see all the things I SHOULD have done, but I can't change that now. Any advice there?
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Hi again movinon,
You haven't said anything on here that would give him any advantage when you do go to court so don't worry about it. Just never say anything untrue about him and you have nothing to worry about. In thre future just use a little less detail about what you plan on doing if it would make you feel more comfortable. The main thing you need to guard against would probably be him hiding assets.
One other thing I wanted to mention is that I KNOW he will say it was a mutually abusive relationship because I FOUGHT BACK. I say back b/c he always started the violence and I didn't run, I hit back. In retrospect, I can see all the things I SHOULD have done, but I can't change that now. Any advice there?
Sure, just say exactly what you just said. If you can establish that he is an unbalanced nut then it seems perfectly reasonable for you to defend yourself. Did he ever file any police reports on you?
If you have a half way decent judge and lawyer then 90% of the battle is being the more credible party. Make sure you get a lawyer who knows the family court judges in your jurisdiction so you know who to disqualify (assuming your state allows you a free disqualification) and who to accept. Experienced lawyers know who to use based on their exposure to them in the past. Some judges are absolutely miserable in their biases either against women or for them; unfortunately there are probably more of the former than the latter.
Hope this helps a little.
mud
PS. Jacmac posted after I wrote my reply and I just want to say I agree with everything she says. Unfortunately if you want to divorce the bum you have to enter the legal system. the good thing is when they persist in lying despite the mountain of evidence they lose all credibility. So do exactly what she said, especially the part about wrting down past occurrences. Legal proceedings take some time, and your memory will fade. I too would be leery of involving social services regarding your kids. Once you are in court might be a better time. Same for filing any police reports now. If you are about to file legal papers on him, anything like a police report right before you do looks like a legal maneuver not a real grievance. Talk to your lawyer about it.
One other thing, in light of his 'I'm gonna shoot myself' drama with the shotgun, I think you should very seriously consider finding a different place to live at least temporarily after you file in court. Probably he won't do anything but its better to be excessively safe than sorry. I don't say that to scare you........well maybe I do a little, because frankly this guy sounds kind of scary.
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Hey Movinon,
I know your ex is one twisted dude, and I agree you need to be very cautious.
But don't be discouraged. You're reading some very pessimistic news about the legal system, and how this could be a battle that sounds like you have to be a strategic genius and always assume the worst about every player involved.
I agree with MudPup that all you need is honesty and very thorough documentation. And a good lawyer you trust (try calling a women's shelter and asking them who the very best advocate for child abuse issues is).
As to all the rest--just take on the things you can control. If you try to personally overcome every possible thing that could go wrong, you might get too discouraged to take up the fight.
But you CAN do this. You can save your daughter and when it's all over you're going to look back and know it is the greatest thing you have ever done.
Start with finding the lawyer. Write up your documentation and get all the evidence you can. But get to a lawyer NEXT WEEK, okay?
One step at a time.
I am so impressed with you!!!! Don't let our loud cheering and floods of cautions discourage you though! We're noisy because we're on your side!!!
((((((((((Movinon)))))))))
Hopalong
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Wow,Thanks Hops - I felt a surge of warm energy in your post. It's amazing how I need that validation that he's as bad as he is. I will have a sawyer and a definate path by next week.
Mud - He's never called the police on me - that would be too insulting to his great big ego. I hear you say the battle will be to appear more credible and that is what I am scared about b/c he is so crafty.
Jac - I will be "interviewing" people this weekend to help me recall info. that I may have forgotten about. The info gathering begins...(again)
Portia and Sugarre - I will talk to my lawyer before taking any more action that might involve CPS - thanks for the advice.
Movinon
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In some places, the law is if you tell your lawyer information that leads him to believe a child is in danger, he is obligated by law to report the information to children's services.
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Oh my God! This is not OK! Not even close.
Talk about boundary violation !!
You do need to report this to a school counselor or a nurse practitioner or a cop or a Family doctor. Just talk to ALL of them and hope that ONE of them calls it in..
Someone who is legally obligated to report suspected abuse.
The showering with an opposite sex minor is right up at the edge of sexual abuse (legally) and way past the line psychologically.
I am appalled.
Not easy.
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movinon,
If you get your ducks in a row and assemble evidence that is irrefutable, whether testimony or documentary, then you have noting to fear of his craftiness. These people thrive in the regular world because they can lie and slander and manipulate. But in court he can't just make an unfounded accusation, he has to have evidence. And, as jacmac or someone said it is imperative that your lawyer understands Ns. This will make it easier to elicit the kind of crazy responses these weirdos are prone to when the right buttons are pushed.
It won't be easy or fun, but you have no choice. Your daughter needs your protection. When you get backed into a corner by a nut like this you have to fight, but if you keep your wits about you, develop a strategy and stick with it you have a good chance to kick his head in. You'll undoubtedly lose a battle here and there but in the end if you have perserverancel you'll win the war.
Take care and don't worry. The truth has a way of eventually coming to the surface no matter how long these creeps try to suppress it.
mud
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One more thing movinon,
Check out OR's latest post on her 'What would you think of this comment' thread if you're looking for a little encouragement.
She married a nutjob pretty similar to yours, right down to the threats with a gun thing.
It can be done if you're methodical and stay on top of things.
Good luck.
mudpup
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Marta - You ask a LOT of good questions. He was married before and has even admitted to raping his ex too. Unfortunately, she lives in another country (Yup, he got his friggin' green card w/ me). He often said he ran over her and she wasn't as "strong" as me. His parents, who also live in another country are just as screwed up and I'm sure know nothing about the showering business or the "American" legal system. They definately would not say anything against their boy. I'm just a crazy American who's into all that "shrink stuff".
I think his enemies are my friends and family so I'm hopin their words will help sway things in my favor.
I think I have the emotional intimacy thing well under control. (yee-ha)
Mud - Where is OR? I've been told to look her up before, but I don't know how to reach her. Is OR short for something? I am not organized, but I have a very good, healthy friend that is and I wiil call on her expertise. I'm not seeing that he is a huge lier, but he is cocky beyond belief. He has an heir of superiority about him that grates on people. He is also socially "retarded" a lot of times, but comes off as responsible. Well, it's a toss-up actually. He is either arrogant and pig-headed (like when he refused to give a cop his DL, trying to use the excuse he was from another country), or he is CCC - calm, cool & collected (calculating). I can definately see where I can not let my emotions get the best of me here. My immediate challenge is to not get thrown by those small battles I may lose - thanks for that!
Not easy - I hear you and boy do I want to jump on this. I'm just fearful that CPS may take my children away from ME for knowing and not doing something sooner.
Anon - I don't think my lawyer has done this. Not sure why, but we will talk about it on Monday.
I'm ready for this fight guys!!
Okay, I have to be totally honest here - We have BOTH showered with her and I stopped a few months ago b/c I didn't want to be doing something I wanted HIM to stop. Another thing is that I am in a 12-step group that deals with sex and love addiction (the same one he is in). I was unfaithful in my 1st marriage, but NEVER in this one. He encouraged me to join after he started -said he thought I could benefit except that what I get is how to not get my worth from what men think of me or how much attention I get from them. I also get to look at what it is in me that made me be unfaithful so I never have to go back there. If any of you reading this post are not familiar with this and have questions, please ask. I am being vulnerable here (which is not easy for me) and ask that you be honest but gentle. I fear that he may try to use this against me. Another aspect of his addiction is he ofter used the internet and admitted to having "fantasies" about my oldest daughter when she hit puberty. Needless to say my older daughter does not feel comfortable around him and does not feel comfortable having my other children around him.
One more nail in his coffin - He is good friends with this couple and asked their daughter to go for a sleepover w/ our. The woman (who I know socially and who is on the board of directors for child advocates), call and asked for a meeting w/ me. SHe asked if I thought it was "safe" for her daughter to sleep over. I think this is going to be HUGE in my case and he doesn't eve KNOW about it.
Movinon
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Thanks bean :?
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It wasn't good, boundary wise, for the two of you to shower with her, imho.
I can tell you own that, and that's a very good thing. If he brought it up you could ask your lawyer about saying, I was uncomfortable with it too and that's why I stopped.
However anyone views it, there's a HUGE difference showering with mom present, versus Dad alone.
And he is clearly a sexual deviant. I believe you will be able to prove that.
Your oldest daughter sounds like a significant asset in this case.
As to your 12 step group, can he use that? Isn't it anonymous?
Whatever he says, you are getting extremely savvy and responsible advice from everyone else here...take mine (about the system) as ignorant, but I'm rooting for you totally.
Keep posting...
Hopalong
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Hi movinon,
Sorry. OR's original name was 'only renting'. Her thread is on the first page now; "What would you think about this comment".
mud
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Hey MovinOn,
When I look at what I posted earlier, I don't like it. Not a bit. (Who was that, my evil twin?)
It sounded really judgmental and who the heck needed ME to say it wasn't good to do that before with your D and exH... you already know that and you stepped up and owned it!
I admire you for admitting to something you feel uncomfortable about.
And I sincerely apologize for reacting like that. Truly. (Those evangelist genes, oy. They pop up.)
(I certainly don't like it when I trot out something I'm unhappy with myself about, and somebody goes, well you certainlly SHOULD disapprove of yourself!). Beleeeeeeeve you me, there are way-worse memories in my own closet I would never have the courage to post as you did. Including parenting mistakes. Big ones.
So I'd like to take it back, but since I did post it I'll leave it as an example of how NOT to be supportive.
And I hereby smack myself upside-a da head.
(Now I return to our regular program...SUPPORTING you in this important, very brave battle.)
Don't you let anybody discourage you, especially this twit with a backache!
Hopalong
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Hi Movinon, I appreciate your honesty and frankness. It helps you and us, I think! :D I read about your shower stuff and this:
I'm just fearful that CPS may take my children away from ME for knowing and not doing something sooner.
I understand (or can try to :?) your fear here. However: knowing and not acting is not the same as abusing. And you are fearful of him right, with darn good reason? So not acting could be out of fear for yourself and your kids?
Also, this point about your 6 yr old: she seems upset/disturbed/unhappy about her Dad showering with her. She's telling you this and that's a biggie - that she's saying it and not keeping it silent. I think it means she's really unhappy about it.
Question: did she ever say she was, or seemed unhappy, about anything that happened while you were with her? (That's a Q for you, not necessarily to answer here.)
Big difference there! What upsets her is what matters. Not your interpretation (or anyone else's really) of what happened. What she feels and thinks is what I'd be looking at if I was in CPS (which I'm not).
I hope that's how it works but I know systems aren't anywhere near perfect.
You're okay Movinon. You're a good mother imo.
Hopalong, you're okay too.
Say what you think and change your mind and change it again. Nothing is ever easy and nobody if perfect and heck, you said what I thought of at first. Then I wondered what the daughter herself thought of it. From the child's perspective is a good view to try. If that's possible. But it's not easy, there are lots of grey areas and the more information we get about anything, the better, probably. But yeah, nothing wrong with what you said as far as I can see. Take it easy on yourself :D
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I love absolution.
Thanks P!
:?
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Hops - Thanks for what you said. I must admit I was pretty depressed after writing what I wrote (or maybe it was reading so much on this board). I felt so supported earlier then ...crickets. I realize that to be a big girl, I will have to face up to some hard truths. Thanks for being honest.
And what is IMO and IMHO?
Portia - I'm not sure what my daughter feels about all of this. I'm not sure if she's reluctant to say b/c she knows I disapprove, or not. She does not volunteer the info. I have asked and that's where the reluctance comes in. She's also reluctant to say too much of what they did. No, I take that back. She tells me that they went and had a play-date or went out to eat.
Hmmm
Man does my typing suck...I'll have to proofread more.
Movinon
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I know you're a good mom too, Movinon. totally!
that was my projected guilt I was dumping.
Man, sometimes all this acting accountable is exhausting, ain't it.
But I have to tell you
ALL OF YOU
that I'm kind of shocked how much my awareness has grown since reading and writing here.
I really think this board is an absolutely amazing, amazing place.
I am learning SO much and have been helped SO much by the wise friends here.
It's like a constant daily support group you can check in with at any time, safe and heard.
It's like an accumulative community of friendship. In a profound way.
This truly is a remarkable phenomenon and I am phenomenally grateful.
It really amazes me. The very first time I ever participate in anything like this online, and it's pure gold.
Hopalong
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Okay, I have to be totally honest here - We have BOTH showered with her and I stopped a few months ago b/c I didn't want to be doing something I wanted HIM to stop.
Movinon, mom showering alone with her daughter is another story. I know many cases like that. If you both showered together with her, then well, from the perspective of the court it might not look so great. Also, if he's European, then its another story too -- my swedish and finnish friends sleep naked, welcome their kids naked in the bed, and suana together, naked of course.
You don't become a sex and love addict just by having been unfaithful. It's a much deeper problem than that -- probably your husband is one and he simply made you think that you were on too.
In both these instances, showering with daughter and wearing the label of a sex addict, it appears to me that your husband waved his wand, created a world, and made you a part of it. You are, fortunately, breaking his spell and realizing that its his world, not yours, and pulling away from it. Of course both these points may get you into a bit of stickiness from legal perspective, but they are by no means make me think any less of you.
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Movinon,
I agree with the others, that what you shared with us does not make us think less of you or consider you out of line in your behavior. I had an affair in my first marriage 30+ years ago, but never considered it in my 22 years of marriage to my second xh--he was the one to do that. Making a mistake once can actually improve your chances of not repeating it.
I agree that you showering with your daughter is no big deal. I know that my daughter would not have been comfortable even showering with me naked at that age, much less her dad, but she has always been very modest and shy. The fact that it is bothering your daughter is the key here and she must be willing to talk about that to the necessary authorities when the time comes.
IMHO (in my humble opinion), neither of these issues would be reason to take your daughter away from you. Neither could be considered abusive to her, and that should be the litmus test.
Document, document, document--hire a private investigator if necessary--but get this man out of your daughter's life. He is dangerous to both of you.
Hugs,
Brigid
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Marta - Yes he is European. It was a HUGE battle when we got together b/c he thought it was "rediculous" that I slept with clothes on. As with all of the fights, I eventually gave in to try to get some peace.
In both these instances, showering with daughter and wearing the label of a sex addict, it appears to me that your husband waved his wand, created a world, and made you a part of it. You are, fortunately, breaking his spell and realizing that its his world, not yours, and pulling away from it.
Man, does this fit too!! I was totally in his world - sort of like that show Runaway Bride - trying to figure out what type of eggs I liked. We were so enmeshed. I didn't know where he ended and I began. All of my views (and moods) HAD to parrallel his - YUCK!!!
bean - Yes I told the wife's friend no. Hopefully she will admit this in court (She IS HIS friend though). BTW - I was at another friend's house last night and she said she didn't let HER daughter go either - said she didn't feel "right". HMMMMMMM
To answer your question - I don't think he even THINKS about her psych. welfare. And yes, my kids used to barge into my room ALL THE TIME, so I never knew (altough repeatedly tried to set boundaries about that) I think the shower is a time AND how water thing...it's in the morning before school and she's a BIG dawdler. My son had to get in afterwards as well (1 bathroom)
Which brings something up...I have one bathroom now and had 2 1/2 then. Why do they not barge in now? another Hmmm...
Brigid - I cant WAIT to get this psycho out of her life. I am feeling VERY excited about my meeting on Monday. Very empowered I've heard so much about documenting and keeping ajournal and how much weight it holds in court.- thank you all sooooooo much!!!!
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I am new to this forum, but I would like to say a couple of things that I hope you will find helpful.
1) if your intuition tells you something is wrong it probably is.
2) be careful not to infuse the child with your feelings, it is probably hard enough to be caught in this and if the child is getting mulitple messages it may make her shut down and not feel anything.
3) have you ever thought about hidden cameras or recording devices to help you with your legal battle?
My prayers are with you. So sad
brendaj :(