Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: mum on February 13, 2006, 08:06:09 PM
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I do so poorly with conflict.
I feel so insecure when I have to stick up for myself. STILL!! GEEZ, I should be way past this!
I am fixing up my house and property to sell.
While I was at work today, the landscaper spread this HUGE rock all over my 1/4 acre, when what I ordered was smaller decomposed granite. They did such a nice job, WITH THE WRONG MATERIAL!!! It is beyond awful looking. My dogs cannot run on it, I cannot even pick up dog poop (it falls between the large rocks).
He insisted the stuff was 3/4 inch (in what alernate universe?) when it is clearly 2" rock. I really felt bad. He was stunned that I was so unhappy. He said it is what he showed me. (it was not). I asked him to get a ruler and look at what 3/4 " is. I told him to tell me what he was going to do tomorrow. He said it will cost me for him to replace it (honestly, they will have to scrape it all up).
So I called the company he bought the material from. They said they delivered 7/8" quarry rock. But that it is really up to 2" large. "you can't use a ruler to measure rock" is what the lady told me. "every quarry has a different definition of 3/4"".
WHAT THE.....?
She told me if someone asked for 3/4 decomposed granite....this is what she would sell them!!!
Didn't I look at a sample, she wants to know? YES> and this is NOT the sample!!!
Anyway, I stopped payment on the deposit check for now, so I haven't paid anything. I feel soo bad, but it is hideous!!!
So as far as detaching: I know I need to...but I am attached to NOT spending a fortune for something I find brutally ugly.
Granted, this is a huge MIS communication.....now I know I should have gone to the materials place to LOOK at the piles of stuff but how did I know his examples would be so off???
I feel like someone knocked me for a loop. I try to be so nice. I hate hate hate conflict....especially when the person is actually nice.
Tomorrow they put in sod, so they will be here again. Any ideas???? I feel like a little kid, asking for help with such a stupid thing....but HELP? I have no husband here, and my friends are mostly advising I either stick to my guns or let it go...(great).
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Jacmac, I am not offended by anything you said. I needed this kind of feedback. Thank you.
Why do you "hate, hate, hate conflict"?
Because someone always gets hurt. Because I never want to be the cause of pain. It's unreasonable, I know.
Is it the feelings of being duped, used, lied to that you hate, and having to confront the person with that reality?
It's because I know it may have been a misunderstanding, and that I have responsibility in it.
I don't think this person is intentionally duping me. But he is, naturally, not admitting any responsibility.
Are you concerned about how that will be responded to?
Exactly. I talked to my husband just now (I wish he were here) and he is concerned that I am so torn....he sees it as much more simple. The guy screwed up. He needs to fix it.
Is it because in the past someone responded negatively when you called them on their crap?
BINGO BINGO BINGO!! And yet, where is the "crap" here? An honest misunderstanding? He does not speak English extremely well, but he sure saw me point at what I wanted and wrote down 3/4" on the paperwork!! Yet the materials supplier tells me...oh, that's our 3/4!! And yet...that is not what I chose in his example case. His sample was MUCH smaller sized.
What do you think you need to detach from, feeling upset about not getting what you wanted?
Good question. Both, I guess. Maybe it comes down to my "deserving" what I want and deserving to get it....do I do that even though it causes others pain? I can probalby detach from being upset...but you are right, not after I do what needs to be done.
All the while I was telling him how much I hated it and was shocked at how bad it looked, in my head I thought, well, he doesn't think I am a nice person anymore. He thinks I am a bitch, now. Maybe he will do something bad to me or my home now.
But WHY do I care if he doesn't like me, really? Isn't he a business man? THIS IS HARD, even if I loved conflict (the only person I know who loves this is my exN.... He does seem to get his way, though.)
I invited my realtor and a few friends to see it...WHY? Isnt' my opinion good enough?
I am an artist. Aesthetics are huge for me. I know I am readying to sell this place, but I have created a beautiful haven where there was nothing... I still care about it, I can't stop. IF the next owners want to do something awful, I don't care, but I can't just let this place go to hell right now. My home has always been a kid and dog friendly place and I know that the next buyer will not feel warmed or welcomed by 3 inches thick of sharp rocks!!!!
This kind of rock is far harder to pick up then to put down, so it will take a lot more man hours, etc... and why that makes me feel bad, I don't know. I wish my husband were here,not so much because a man would be treated differently, but because he makes me think, just as you did. He just told me that if I still feel sorry for the guy I may as well forget it, because the guy's counting on that.
Thanks for listening and making me think. This is yet again, another chance for me to be strong....I hope I can do it.
Bean, just got your post, too. Thanks for the ideas. This is exactly the kind of thing my husband told me about: these guys screw up all the time, they are betting on you feeling bad for them and backing down. I think the part about him being in business how long? (wonderful) is excellent, as I do think he should know how varied the rock "measurement" can be (how would your typical homeowner know this....it's his job to clarify).
Bottom line so far is< he hasn't been paid anything. What he has done, otherthan the rock, is acceptable.
Repeat after jac and I: THIS IS A BIG DEAL TO ME, but I'll remain calm when I talk to this guy tomorrow so he will treat me with respect, and we'll just see what happens, and get the whole thing taken care of, respectfully and it will be no big deal.
Taping this onto my forehead. Thanks. It will be my affirmation tonight.... you guys (ooooh, I mean gals) are the best.
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Hi Mum,
I can't seem to get my user names straight (I post from a couple of different computers), but this is daylily.
I sympathize totally. We completed a major home renovation last year, and our kitchen ceiling has started to buckle because the shower pan in the master bathroom above is not water-tight. Now at this moment in my life, this is BEYOND annoying. But when I called them, did I threaten? Did I bully? No. I timidly asked if they would mind coming to look at the work they did so badly. And, as always, they started a long explanation of how this isn't really their problem. Aargh!!! I can just add this to the guy who put in pavers in the front of our house (tripling the price of the job as he worked) and cut off our post lantern. We informed him, and informed him again, and informed him again, and six months later, he's still gonna get right on it.
While I think there may be some conflict-avoidance issues for both of us, I also think that people who do this kind of work are so busy, and so in demand, that they don't much care about quality. It simply doesn't matter in this tight a labor market. There are too many more jobs in the hopper. If one customer is unhappy, they just move on to the next.
In other words, this guy might be a total jerk, and he might not have taken much care with his materials selection, and he might not be too concerned about your reaction. The day our replacement windows were put in, I was in tears. You could see daylight around the edges. I told them that they couldn't possibly consider that a finished job. They said the contract didn't specify trimming out the windows. I said, "Did the contract specify leaving them looking like crap?" If I hadn't stayed home to corral the dog, they would have simply walked away and left them that way.
So please don't beat yourself up about this. You're doing the right thing by withholding payment. It's your only leverage. But the contractor's reaction is totally predictable and has nothing to do with you. Fight the good fight, and hold out for what you want. And don't pay until you get it.
best,
daylily (or whoever I happen to be at a given workstation)
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I tend to avoid conflict where I can too.
But this is a big and presumably expensive job which if you don't get them to change it you'll be stuck with it annoying you every day.
There's a nice piece on assertiveness http://mentalhelp.net/psyhelp/chap13/chap13e.htm sometimes refreshing those skills can help. I keep reading all this stuff and it's gradually sinking in...
I have to say a lot of workmen can be extremely sexist in their attitude in my experience and will try to fob off women but not their husbands! Very irritating.
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Hi Mum,
I'm not envious of your position! I too hate hate hate conflict (this is why you never see me on a thread that has conflict in it!!!!)
I don't think I have a strong enough sense of self to be able to argue... I always feel bad after.
I always feel like I am at fault no matter what, and I can't deal with that. I can't deal with the competition of who's right and who's wrong which is the core of a lot of arguments at the end of the day.
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Hi Mum
Did you get a written quote for this work? If so, what does the quote say? Are they installing what they wrote down? Is the work being done on a day rate or fixed price?
If it was done verbally…. What about asking to see the samples again? Then you can compare the sample with what they have already laid.
I understand how annoying and frustrating this is, but remember, you and your family are the people who will live with this, day in, day out… not the suppliers or builders doing the work.
You are not responsible for their mistake – fact
You do not have to pay for the replacement because of their mistake – fact
As a homeowner I can relate to what you are going through. Not only is there the upheaval of the work being done, the last thing you need is to deal with mistakes. Does he have a manager you can deal with? Where you can explain what you picked and what is on your drive doesn’t match?
Another option is threaten to go to the local paper. Local papers are usually interested in this type of thing, and bad press can be more damaging than the court system.
Conflict is crap…. I hate conflict too, but there are times when being too nice doesn’t work… there are times when we need to be assertive, and that’s what I see here… just be assertive. Get any written information together, know what you agreed and be firm. Sometimes it even helps to book an appointment with the manager, who will have to make the final decision.
Good luck…. Go kick ass girl :o)
Take care
H&H xx
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mum,
I hate conflict too, but my ex hated it more, so any battles that needed to be fought, had to be done by me while we were married. I certainly understand the frustration of being taken advantage of as a single woman.
My bf owns a landscaping business, so I have a sense of what you are dealing with. I have not consulted him, but I do believe that if the homeowner was unhappy with what they had done, they would fix it. Contractors should rely on referrals from previous clients and they need those referrals to be positive or they eventually go out of business. I think you have done the right thing by witholding payment, as this is your only leverage right now. You have a legitimate complaint if the stone is not what you were shown or expecting and they need to make it right. I agree that you should not have them put in the sod or do any more work until that part of it is fixed.
Did you get bids from any other landscapers or did you just hire the guy you used? Do you know anyone in the business that you could consult as to how to proceed? If he refuses to repair the situation, you could take him through small claims court, but that would only be a last resort.
Stay strong. You will not be happy with yourself if you let him get the best of you. This is your home and haven and you need to be proud of it and feel peace when you are there. Who cares what he thinks of you? You don't have to rely on his referral for future business, but you could damage his reputation if he doesn't make you happy.
Sending you strength and determination.
Brigid
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Good morning Mum:
It seems you have a choice:
1. Allow this contractor to get away with putting 2 inch sharp rocks where you had asked for 3/4 inch, live with it until you sell the house, experience whatever feelings all of that evokes,
or
2. Stick to your guns, face this guy down, even though you don't like conflict, maybe see it as a learning experience, go through whatever feelings all of that evokes.
Either way, you're going to go through feelings. It just seems to me, it's a matter of WHICH feelings you decide to go with.
Will you like yourself better if you feel sorry for the guy, or if you are firm with him about what you want and what you were lead to believe you would get?
Will it be harder to go through the conflict with him now, or live with your decision to be passive, later?
You ARE a nice person Mum and it doesn't matter what this guy thinks. He's not your judge. He doesn't know you or anything about you and he will not be involved in your life. Whatever you decide, however you choose to deal with him, will not effect whether you are a nice person or change that in any way.
Your choice will simply be another experience. It's up to you to pick what you think will work best for you.
Personally, I'm not in love with conflict, but I don't like myself when I let others abuse me, insult me, or rip me off. I beat myself up worse when I do nothing, say nothing about that, than I do when I ignor my fears and stand up to them. It's scary, sometimes, it feels foreign, because generally I'm kind to people, but sometimes, it's necessary to do it to prevent .......losing more of myself? That's what it feels like to me.....every time someone treats me badly and I do nothing.......it feels like I've lost a little bit of me......like they've taken it or won it or something.
Maybe that's weird or a bit goofy or whatever. All I know is for me conflict sucks but being put down, ripped off, or worse.....is worse and I feel worse.....if there is something I can do to stop it, end it, or change it.
(((((((((Mum))))))))
You can be firm but pleasant. Repeat over and over what you want. Refuse to take responsibility for this guy's stuff. He knows what he's doing. You're not in his business, so you have relied on him to be honest.
Bottom line.....he was not honest since he showed you a sample of small, 3/4 inch stones but didn't tell you that the actual product would be up to 2 inch and sharp. That was misleading, at the least, and dishonest at the most. He might be relying on how nice you are.......expecting you to just accept it. If so and if he gets what he's expecting, he will simply go on to do the same thing to the next person.
So, in the end, letting him away with it.....is like giving him license to keep doing it over and over. Even if you try to get him to deliver what he originally showed you (same rock as in the sample) and it doesn't happen, won't you feel good about trying, about not letting yourself just be a victim??
Sela
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Thanks for the continued support. I know this is not life threatening, but it is something to deal with.
Sela, his sample was what they ordered. The diffrence is that in his sample, none of the rocks were bigger than 3/4 in....1 inch tops. No where was there a rock as big as I have. The rock company told me this IS 3/4 (and that it can come that big).
I have decided to make him take it out. It was his responsibility to explain to me that what I ordered could come so large. HE should know this. I spent 18 years making this one of the most beautiful properties on my block only to have it ruined in one day. It looks cheap and tacky.
I didn't sleep much and my daughter had nightmares of me being murdered in front of her and she was getting stabbed next. I think we are way too stressed about this. (she ended up sleeping with me, poor kid).
I will see what kind of solution this guy has come up with today, and it will only involve removing the rock or he will get no payment for anything he has done.
Thanks again.
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Hi mum,
Maybe I missed it, but what did your friends and especially your realtor think of the rock?
I mean, you're selling the place right? So if it doesn't reduce its value or make it harder to sell what's the prob? You're not going to be looking at it the rest of your life.
I can't help you much with the 'don't like conflict thing' but maybe on the practical side you don't need to have one on this issue.
Or maybe your pals agree it is objectively awful, in which case, go get 'em tiger. :P
mud
PS. I see you have posted and have already decided, but I'll toss my two cents in anyway.
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Hi jac,
Its true that conflict can occur when each party is trying to be heard. But it can also occur when one party is trying to silence others or tries to drown them out. I'm not saying you are, I'm just saying there can be many reasons for conflict.
It also raises the question of whether people's desire to be heard is stifled by an excess of conflict. We don't know how many people don't speak up or simply leave if conflict is endemic.
If the atmosphere becomes too threatening, too hard, too painful or worse for them then maybe that is a measure of excessive conflict? And maybe the board isn't functioning at its optimum for the maximum number of people possible.
Disclaimer: None of this is directed at anyone in partcular, just a general observation.
mud
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I don't understand all of it because I haven't been around that long but I can try on some "I" statements. I think this is a little bit stupid, so forgive me.
When I found out there was a "private forum" it triggered memories over being intensely unpopular as a child. Part of the reason I'm so nice (I am quite popular among my own friends, or at least I'm loved now) is that I want so much to be liked. Part of it may be that I'm also in ways likeable. But a little leftover part of me was going (regardless of what the announcement said): oh it's a party and I'm not invited and I'm not special and everybody hates me.
When I found out two people I liked a lot had gone off and stopped posting I felt, waaaaah, I miss them and I feel abandoned.
When I read the red type that's A Big Voice I am: 1) semi-thrilled for the entertainment value of the fight (think I wanted to admit that? No, I have compulsive honesty problems and it also makes me sound like a creep); 2) delighted (not because I want to take a side but because it does feed something in me to read somebody bearing down like Moses on something they perceive as wrong--sort of a sick thrill combined with imagining the Godlike adult I visualized in another thread dealing with bullying middleschoolers), and 3) scared because that voice is so BIG and that sends me back to What If This Shuts Us All Up? and that segues into now I'm going to miss them ALL and I (might! someday!) be abandoned. (Red-ink poster...could you write in lavender to spare my feelings?) :shock:
(Just wanted everybody to know I am very mature. :oops:)
Hops (I'm off to a church group but if this is as embarrassing as I think it ought to be I may come home and delete it...I plead drugs! Took a strong narcotic for my back and my filters are down.) But as a 3 y/o girl said once at a little church ceremony when we taught them to light candles and I've never forgotten her...it was a kind of "share from your heart" thing, and she looked very serious and said softly, "I love everybody." I do too.
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Mum,
I hate to get on my woman bandwagon again, but our gender is conditioned to be NICE and conflict is not "NICE", therefore, we often get SCREWED because we will not speak up for ourselves. In another post, I saw a woman saying the men that work for her think she's a bitch. Why is that? More so, why is that offensive? You know what you are and what you aren't. I bitch is simply a woman who stands up for herself even in the face of conflict! Believe me, they respect this more then people who back down and let themselves be run over.
I invited my realtor and a few friends to see it...WHY? Isnt' my opinion good enough?
I am an artist. Aesthetics are huge for me
EXACTLY!!!!!!! See how we doubt ourselves? YOu don't NEED to make excuses or give reasons. You simply get WHAT YOU ORDERED!!!! PERIOD!
Movinon
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Just an update. I still hate the rock.
I did a little research and found out that 3/4 " of the type I got doesn't exist. It's either 1/2" (which has up to 3/4 " in it) or 1" (which has up to 2" in it). I got the 1" of course!
I also asked if they would take it back and they said not if it is spread out. I told her it was.
I finally talked to the landscaper, who is licensed (and wouldn't want to lose that!) and he feels just awful, too. When he found out I went to the supply place, he said "oh, I see" Because this morning he called them and asked them if he could return it and they said yes, and then they called him this afternoon (apparently after I was talking to them) and told him he could not return it.
I refuse to feel bad that he was caught in a LIE. Too bad for him.
Anyway, he will remove the rock, but since they won't let him return it, and it is about 40 tons, he has no place to put it until he needs it for another job (again...too bad, not my problem).
I understand that there was a huge miscommunication but told him under no circumstances will I keep this. I will either pay him the full amount planned, or I will not, as I will need the money to pay someone else to fix it.
He was very apologetic, but still sounded panicked as I am sure this is a HUGE sum of money for him to eat.
I actually wouldn't mind paying a bit more, but I am not letting that on just yet.
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Yeah Mum!!!!!!
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Good job, mum :D (do I sound like I'm talking to one of my kids??) You should be very proud of yourself.
You have inspired me yet again.
Brigid
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Thanks for the congrats, but I don't feel particularly vindicated or proud. I feel bad for the guy, bad for me, and well, it's just a sorry situation. But it is not the end of the world (try telling me that at 3 am this morning...I lost my "everything" keys, set my own burglar alarm off, my daughter had nightmares....negative begets negative...that's for sure) and nothing is so catastrophic as to lose another night of sleep over it. Heck , I am almost embarrassed for whining at all, what with Movinon and Mia and some others going through the circles of hell lately..
At my age I cannot handle another night like that, and I won't. I have been having some irregular heart rhythms and last night I felt like my heart was jumping out of my chest....stress can do amazing things. (going for an echocardiogram soon. Nothing serious, really, though.)
Funny thing about last night though, that I never expected as a by product:
I got a concrete sense of what my dying mother's life has been like for the last few years. She has severe anxiety on top of the myriad of physical issues she has (actually because of), and last night I felt what it must be like to have such a horrible, gripping, never let up anxiety. I could not shake it for the life of me, for hours on end. It became everything: my being alone and apart from my husband and siblings still, my life being so uncertain for so long...but mostly that damn rock!!! I felt such a sadness for my mom last night. She is heavily medicated and when lucid, can barely speak anymore (stroke damage). She says she is in pergatory (not the ski area).
The other thing was my d's nightmares. Apparently I was being murdered in a series of dreams over and over in front of her, and then they (a Barbie/elf?) went after her and stabbed her hip. She said she felt the blood. She was so terrified, and came running into my room... and of course scared me too. I was happy to be able to comfort her...as I'm sure those parents of teenagers here know...it's few and far between nowadays...take it where you can get it!
But today we talked about it and concluded it was her seeing me "victimized" yesterday, and then repeatedly by her dad (which we acknowledged indirectly). It's all very interesting to me. Where is Freud when you need him, eh???
Anyway, the whole thing was meant to happen for me to give me another opportunity to practice using my voice. It happened for a reason for him to: well, I don't know what, but trying to be untruthful already bit him in the butt with the supplier....well, it's a growth opportunity for everyone. (How the heck was I suppose to know he was trying to lie...funny how I innocently enough bumbled it up for him to return the stuff.)
I still am not sure when he will have this figured out. He put in the sod today and it looks fantastic...so he's not a total loss.
I believe this will work out ok.
There you go again Bean, posting while I'm writing....thanks, you guys must know me....I need to refrain from feeling bad.
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Mum!
You rock! Pun intended!
Congratulations.
I wonder if it hit so hard because the aesthetic is one piece of your identity that has always WORKED. Your eye for beauty cannot be stolen by an N or anyone else. So I wonder if it was doubly threatening because of that? Your acute sense of beauty is a quiet thing but actually represents one of your greatest powers, I'm guessing. So if somebody threatens that...or even accidentally...I can imagine how that would set off huge anxiety.
And I know panic attacks. They are clammy, to the core.
I am grateful for you describing the isolation of that sick-feeling fear.
And your heart? I understand...I used to go to the ER repeatedly as a young woman because the symptoms were so terrifying. I hope you have Rx and a T who really understands panic disorder, because it really can be throttled waaaaaaay down... for me, Pema Chodron's When Things Fall Apart was SUCH an eye opener. One of the first things I ever read that put the fear and a way of passing through it in spiritual language, instead of just leaving me with my "diagnosis" of anxiety.
-----Now I want to talk about me for a minute. I knew I'd feel this way when I got home, and driving home I felt a spurt of self-dislike. What I'd like to say is that "entertainment" is a really ugly word to use about the board conflict, when there are real hearts, real individuals (whom I care about and MISS--ahem P and P!)--and real pain involved. I want to apologize to everyone for saying that word.
I'm also going to leave it posted because in some piece of me that has been ONE reason I've been interested in reading those threads. Or there's some truth in it I want to learn from. In a little way I feel some weird kind of bravado, as though I'm trotting down Main Street in my knickers.
I think it has something to do with really, really wanting to admit to and own my own dark side (I think my recent rage--stored up for 50 years--at very elderly NMom has brought it on). In a paradoxical way, though I have to struggle through self-dislike on the way, I think owning the bits of ugliness inside is part of the path to self-love. That concept I've struggled with all my life because I was steeped in guilt like a teabag.
I'm sorry if I'm not making a whole lot of sense...but thank you all for letting me kind of process that thought out loud. It's a bit naked, but I am trying to wind up on the path of love.
I'm stumbling and bumbling. I just have some sort of intuition that this is ... mostly anyway ... okay.
Thanks, and if I hurt anyone's feelings, please PM me so I can tell you I'm sorry.
Hops
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Honestly, I don't know, Jac.
I stuffed my anger for 50 years.
Now and then I did get angry but for the most part, deep inside, I feel anger is poison.
The few times I've let it fly, the guilt afterward made me literally sick. (I know that stuffing it, instead of stating it reasonably like you've suggested, makes it like steam in a kettle and the words are more scalding when they finally do come out.)
The way I used to express it was more like, (forgive me Marta I don't mean this cruelly)...something like the kind of voice I hear in Marta's pain and fury. I think there's fear there, and the lecturing tone that got others' teeth gritted really sounded like an attempt to push away. Somehow when people get super-rational or hotly cold (Red Type) I get nervous. (Likewise, when you're all emotional glop like I can be, that's not helpful either.)
I just dunno about anger. It's a huge mystery to me that I really don't want to solve. The world shows me anger every day. We slaughter each other.
I do not know how to separate the meek gentle Jesus image I loved as a child from some healthy model of anger (even though I know he dumped over the moneychangers' table and even though I'm no longer lucky enough to have that simple faith).
I guess when I say I want to own my dark side, I mean I want to own up to the spurts of unkind thought or callousness that can appear. Not so much that I want to vent anger at someone else. I really don't. In fact I'm feeling more love in my heart, more steadily, for more people, than I ever have before.
I just think the lesson I'm in now includes a feeling that I just want to look at myself and see what is really there. And then love it. (Not instead of loving others. Just bringing myself into the circle of what deserves love, instead of making myself stand outside it as I have for too long. Make sense?)
I think if I can do that, even with detours through mud (no offense, Mud)...I will find a way to being more whole.
Lord, I know that's rambling and probably sounds very unfocused. These are fairly new thoughts for me so they'll likely be pretty amorphous for a while.
thanks for asking...that's good of you Jac.
Hops
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PS--Mum, please say if you want me to take this yammering off to another thread.
Glad to if you want.
Hops
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Me: the lecturing tone that got others' teeth gritted really sounded like an attempt to push away..
Jac: Who's anger made you grit your teeth in fear?
Hi Jac, Thank you for the close reading and for sharing what a horrendous, brutal childhood you had, and how it left its teeth in you. I admire you for owning your own anger, admitting it, then dealing. Wow. I know you're right that stuffing it all backfires too...so it's the moderate way I am aiming for.
I think the lecturing tone I mention above is my projection about my mother's lecturing, advice, counsel, opinion, prodding, noodging, reminding, repeating. There was something obsessive and incessant about her communications about what is right and wrong and how to be good that drove me nuts (and she was never violent, nor was Dad). The one who made me fear was my brother, an intimidating bully who tormented me persistently.
I fear anger because of lack of "practicing" it...which I'm working on now in small ways. Like my Nfriend at work was laughing at me the other day (predicting I would mindlessly repeat an old pattern) when I was telling him about some serious feelings and I stopped him and said I feel disrespected when you laugh at me and I don't like it! I kept telling him I wasn't wanting advice and he kept pushing and I kept holding my boundaries. Later I apologized to him for the defensiveness piece and gave him the benefit of the doubt, saying, I'm sure your laughter wasn't intended as mockery. And he said no no, it wasn't. It was cllumsy encounter, but good practice in trying to figure out which piece of something belongs to whom and owning what you can without too much.
I've had different styles of anger in my life, at different stages of development I guess. Never went to violence because I was lucky enough not to have violent parents, and my brother's intimidation was more psychological than physical (plenty of minor things like arm-twisting, hair pulling, but mostly it was pure threat and dominance).
By rejecting that part of myself (hating that part of myself) I was hating myself. The anger/hurt was a part of myself I had to heal. The guilt was just punishing me, like me mother and father did, for having feelings, instead now I had taken over the job for them.
--YES.
Must rally for work...
Hops
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Has a twist Is straight
Manipulates the truth Seeks the relief of honest self-expression
Has a hidden agenda Wants to discover the truth
Attacks to hurt Expresses the hurt and anger
Blames and proves "guilt" Confronts
Is a weapon Is a tool
Seeks to discredit the other as a person Seeks to expose
Has no accountability Demands accountability
Hides behind innocence Chooses not to hide
Is righteously superior Is adamant
Assumes another's motives Never assumes motives
Needs a villain Rejects villains
Refuses to claim anything Claims its part
Seeks to punish Determines consequences for itself
Uses information to make a case against the other Uses information for clarity/understanding
Fears exposure Values exposure
Leads to abuse Leads to intimacy
Alienates and violates Liberates
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Sorry, couldn't format that table right.
Anway, it's better viewed at the link: http://www.mtoomey.com/violating_liberating.html
It's about the differences between violating anger (the first phrase) vs. liberating anger (the next phrase).
Seemed apropos to what we've been talking about. The author concludes:
Because anger has such force and potential for violence, it needs to be treated with great discipline and respect. Uncontrolled anger is dangerous and we recognize that even if we don't know how to control it. Unaddressed and unexpressed anger is also dangerous, and we tend not to realize that.
This is a challenging but interesting and important area for me to learn in.
Thanks,
Hops
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PS Jac,
Your story shocked and moved me so much I didn't know what to say to it.
But I'll say this, not only are you no monster, but it is inspiring to me to read your wisdom, knowing even more clearly now what hell and hard places you had to pass through to acquire it.
The images of your parents battles are horrendous, and I am so sorry you went through that, and more, as a child. It's more hurt than I even understand...and here you are, dispensing comfort to someone who never once got hit with a fist.
Thank you, Jac. For your story and your engaging with such honesty...
You look at an anger and it's no longer the elephant in the general living room.
You do make it easier for me to think about it because I can think, if Jac survived what she survived and came out with a good mind and a caring heart and has learned to love herself...ANYONE CAN.
Thanks for telling that story, which I imagine was not easy at all.
(((Jac)))
Hopalong
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Hops, I don't mind at all, that this thread is taking this course. It is very helpful to me, too.
I think the Pema Chodron book you cite has a lot in it about self acceptance, but maybe "Start Where You Are" is more focused on that.
As you well know, I have had trouble expressing anger. I was taught as a child that it is unnacceptable to express anger, "Offer it up to God as a sacrifice" is what my mom would say. She had nine kids....she also said "off the ear" when we were whining (which I totally get as a mom now!!) But imagine my take on that as a six year old! Suffering and acceptance and spiritual sacrifice is a VERY heady concept, not something a kid can get their head around or find too useful!
What I needed to learn was a healthy way to EXPRESS my anger, but I don't think my parents, products of their time and culture, really knew how to do teach that. They were very spiritual people, but my mom was more dogmatic, Catholic style (thus the guilt over my anger, too) My dad knew how to channel pain and anger, and manifest positive things, but for some reason (maybe because my mom was more present with us) we didn't quite learn what he knew when we were young, and the world was quite a shock for us. As adults we are all very spiritual and pretty good at life and love, but as children, we just stuffed it...and it's produced some interesting results in all of us.
Anger is poison, but like Jacmac said: when ignored.
"Anger rots the vessel it is carried in." That's for sure!
Jacmac: I think your story was so compelling. You have really made amazing strides. I am so happy that you see so much about your path. Waking up and opening your eyes to all of that must have been a painful realization.
My mentor and my therapist both say the same thing about anger. It is meant to notify us about something. We are suppose to learn something from it, DO something with. It is meant to be cleared from the mind and body, not ignored. Unexpressed anger turns inward...that is why we get physically ill, and start to hate ourselves, all of ourselves, including and especially that anger.
Re; the "dark side" . Naming anger and pain "dark" makes sense, because it is not light, and it is a lower vibration, and negative feeling to us. Calling it this tends to label it as something bad. Well, if it is something we don't want.....we need to clear, maybe that's just fine! "Owning" it (whatever you call "it") is VERY important, though. I think even though it may not be our pain, and we have just taken it on for someone else....it's their energy, really, it HAS become ours in our reaction to it. So being AWARE of where it (the "dark" ) came from is important.....but knowing WHY WE FEEL IT is paramount. What is it telling us?
Call it what you will.....feeling it is still something we have to look at.
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Hi all:
Mum, I'm glad you stood your ground with that landscaper. Hopefully, he will remove the big rock and bring in the smaller stuff, and so he should. It sounds like that is something that might happen now. Great going Mum!!
The discussion of anger is interesting to me. Some ideas came to my head when I read this:
Anger is poison, but like Jacmac said: when ignored.
"Anger rots the vessel it is carried in." That's for sure!
I think I disagree with part of this. For me, anger can be a life saver. It can motivate me to act when there is what I perceive as danger or injustice. I call it a negative emotion because it's not my favorite and I don't enjoy feeling angry. But anger really is just a feeling. IMO, it has a purpose......just as your mentor and T said:
It is meant to notify us about something. We are suppose to learn something from it, DO something with.
I agree and I also think.....it's a feeling....it's human.....it's necessary for survival. And when we perceive danger or injustice......it's definately notification. The key word being "perceive" and sometimes, our perceptions are not accurate and so our anger might be misinformed. :lol: :shock: :shock:
The main thing, though, imo is not so much what we feel but being able to express what we feel. and especially...being aware of what is being felt. When the opportunity to do that is denied us, or we repress our feelings...........
THEN I agree......a feeling like anger might stew and ferment and bubble and cook and eventually......it might even become what I see as the real poison....
HATE (which is said to corrode the vessel within which it resides). :shock:
So I do agree, in the end, that anger can evolve into something poisonous, if it is kept inside, ignored, or repressed but also, that there are times when it might be prudent to repress, set aside until later.....big anger...or times when it could save us to use it, for all it is.
Having said all of that, I do think I understand where you're coming from in regard to not wanting to express anger, or feeling afraid to do that, or that it might not be appropriate to do so, or being taught that it is wrong to do that, etc (re those who expressed these ideas).
It can be scary. For me, especially when I've felt a great, huge, large amount of it (due to feeling greatly, hugely, and largely in danger and treated unjustly). At times like that, I think it might be perfectly correct to repress a good part of my anger. Otherwise, it may end up being a great explosion and a terrible experience for me and anyone who looks like me ( :D) --or looks at me!! :oops:
The trick, for me, in that case......is to let as much of it out as possible....prior to dealing with whoever I have to deal with......in what I call appropriate ways...like talking to someone about how I feel, writing stuff down, pounding on bongo drums (I just love those bongo drums), walking, screaming even.......whatever it takes to diffuse my fuse, I guess. If that is not possible, then it might be a good idea to just bury it, until I am able to do those things (but also...important to make sure I get back to it and deal with it and get it out!!).
So, I feel like I am in a better position to calmly express myself to whoever I must, if I do so without expressing great, huge, loads of anger, (with the exception of being in some kind of physical attack......in which case I would hope to skip the walking, screaming, bongo banging stuff and go straight to expressing......loudly and clearly.....or using my anger as a weapon of self defense, if it seemed like the situation warranted that).
The thing is......once I started to look at anger as just a feeling.......rather than as some enemy or wrong or weakness or handicap of mine, I felt less afraid of it and more able to express it in ways that seem ok.
I wouldn't go so far as to say....anger is your friend, although, at times, it might actually be (such as when others try to abuse you....it can save you from passivity and goad you into acting to seek help or to escape more).
Now I feel like I'm lecturing. All this just got me thinking. It's a good topic. One I think many of us can relate to. I know it was sure a different ball game for me, when I was a child. My anger wasn't allowed....was punished, or beaten into submission. Lucky for me, I joined a martial art at a fairly young age and found great wisdom in my Sensi, learned much that helped me, and was able to unleash a lot of my repressed anger, which was a good thing, and I had some good ways of releasing it to begin with, but my Sensi helped me to tap into .......anger I didn't know was there??? Repressed for years, I guess. Otherwise, I might still be carting it around. :x It doesn't feel like that to me.
I can say: "I feel very angry", to someone, without thinking it's wrong, or awful, or dangerous. But more importantly......I am aware of feeling angry. That's a big thing for me. I think, for years, I just felt.....stuff .....but wasn't really aware of, or paying much attention to....what. Sometimes, I really have to focus on that.....ask myself....."What am I feeling?". Once I figger that out, I am better able to choose what or how to express.
Sela
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I have always considered myself a "big picture" person and really hate details. I am great at developing a concept and coming up with the general perameters of how to make it happen, but don't expect me to read all the fine print and spend hours developing the mission statement. I feel somewhat the same way about conflict. If the conflict involves my "big picture"--my kids, friends, pets, home, neighbors--whatever is meaningful to me, I will jump into the battle with both feet. If however, it involves what I perceive to be a fine point argument with no benefit (selfishly) to me--then leave me out of it. I cannot endlessly argue over the nuances of how something is said or what the meaning behind the meaning might be. That is why I will avoid getting into the occasional conflicts which arise on this board. Some folks enjoy the active discussion of fine points--I do not and will not engage that. One is not right or the other wrong, just the way I am.
I agree with Sela that anger can be a motivator. It certainly motivated me into action when my ex suddenly left, even though I was in a state of depression. It was the only source of energy I had at that time. It did become more destructive over time, however, and then I needed to start letting go.
Mum, I am sorry this whole situation is causing you so much distress. I, too, let these types of things eat away at me and cannot let them go until they are resolved one way or another. I often wish I could be more relaxed about such things, but once again, it's just the way I am. I hope it all works out for the best for you and you can find your place of calm once again.
Brigid
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Hops and all,
Couldn't let this one by without jumping in.
but for the most part, deep inside, I feel anger is poison.
The few times I've let it fly, the guilt afterward made me literally sick. (I know that stuffing it, instead of stating it reasonably like you've suggested, makes it like steam in a kettle and the words are more scalding when they finally do come out.)
Man can I relate to this. This is part of the empowerment work I do. I had the same thing going on for me. I scared people away with my anger. I learned how to release it fully and with intention in a healthy way. I am attaching the web link to the work. It's a worldwide thing and has changed my life. I would not have the kind of support and strength I have without it and it's for women from 18-88 ( and believe me when I say there are plenty of older women who do this - retired therapists and all).
If someone is offended or I am breaking a rule, please let me know and I'll (figure out how to) delete it. I get NO $ from this either. It's like therapy, just INTENSIVE.
http://www.womanwithin.org/index.htm
It's premise is "how would your life be different if there had been a place for you.....
Movin
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Ok, the guy finally called....to try and manipulate me into paying again!!!! I think I got way too angry, and should have simply done the broken record thing.... but oh, well. I can't beat myself up about handling it wrong. I am not paying. He tells me it will cost him an additional $2800.00 to do this. So I pointed out to him that he will be able to recoup $1680.00 of it when he charges his next customer who wants that rock I do not...and that I have no chance of recouping anything, as I do not own a landscaping company. He told me he wanted to "get this over with" and that he had never had a customer "speak to me in this tone of voice" or one who was "unhappy at all". These comments all seem to be manipulative, to try and make it "personal" and have me get entangled in feeling sorry for him, or bad about my stance. All it did was trigger anger in me and I questioned his ethics and motivation. I told him that because he had yet to accept any responsibility for this mistake was a concern to me. He tried to counter by telling me again what I ordered, but I told him that we both know that product does not exist, and as a professional in the field, it was his responsibility to know this. My husband thought it was a little creepy, how the conversation even contained any of that. I think that is true (so I immediately felt it was my fault for going there, which is not what my husband meant.) But I think I should have controlled things more, not gotten so pissed off, or even emotional at all. But he was trying sooo hard to get out of it, and make me feel responsible for this!! I just could not quietly stick to my guns....I had to explain how pissed I was that I even had to have a damn gun for this conversation.
And yet now, I do not feel great. I feel exhausted. I wish I had not engaged in anything, either explaining myself or anything.
But I think I would feel worse if I looked at my awful yard every day, looking at a failure of sticking up for myself.
BUT , I still feel bad that I got my way.....What is wrong with me????
I will be ok...process this, thanks for listening. They will begin removing it tomorrow morning...I hope they don't do something bad to my house or dogs....
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Hey Mum,
You're pretty new at this calm assertive stuff, right? Since conflict or disagreement have been so very painful for you?
So this is a clumsy, uncomfortable, draining and difficult experience for you, and you did not do it perfectly, and it triggered some shame and guilt?
GOOD FOR YOU FOR TRYING IT ANYWAY!
I think you enduring this...and sweating your way through it...is honorable. Don't forget that despite his disapproval (and your own discomfort with yourself)--the outcome is very very different than if you simply had let it go, and then lived with the pain of passivity and not having tried on this new behavior.
I think it's really worth recognizing what a very huge step this was. And respect yourself for it.
I also think it's very likely that when the next event in your life that calls for assertion comes along, it will be a step less difficult, and the next a step less difficult, etc.
This is just how you do it. One bloody step at a time. But it's how change is. Not usually a lightning strike or conversion experience, imho...but really sweaty effort that you repeat and repeat.
Success isn't simple as a one-shot affirmation session (or it's never worked for me, dammitall). Instead i think it is over-time repetition of these things AGAINST YOUR OWN RESISTANCE until they do become a part of you. And add to your strength and character.
I respect you. I think you've moved a whole lot of internal rock.
Please don't beat yourself up for not shifting every pebble within view.
Hops
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I feel better now. I know where this comes from....I think I know that having to stick up for yourself in the first place means that something is not right with the world. ....I always felt this as a child. Pretty unrealistic, I know, but it's something I worked at my whole life. It's always appeared easier for others. Although my mentor says: it's hard for most people ,really. It's universal.
The things you said were very helpful, really. Thanks Hops, Jacmac. I feel like we should meet for coffee on a regular basis...if I had such powerful women in my life every day, I would feel so strong. OH WAIT! I DO!!! Thank you!! (too late for coffee though).
It's funny you asked about my T, Jacmac. I saw her today, and she is going to retire at the end of the month. I am sad a little, but happy for her, as she wishes to spend more time with her husband as they both get older (she will be 80...I had no idea, she looks less than 70). She is like a mom to me, and since my own mom is barely there anymore, my T is even more that mom substitute. I am so emotional tonight....I miss my mommy.
Anyway, when I talk to my T again, I will let her know the outcome of the landscaper problem. She thought what I had done so far was hard because I was protecting my boundaries with someone who clearly had an interest in violating them. Well, that is something I have been doing for a while now!! (that guy had no clue what he triggered!!! idiot!!!)
I see her so infrequently now, that many times I just fill her in on the various legal and emotional crap that is getting thrown at me by my ex. (which is always). She gave me lots of supportive ideas for my daughter today....and thinks I am handling things well. I would love to get into WHY I am such a wuss (on the inside anyway) and the times in the past we have dealt with it, have been mind blowing. It is a core belief issue, but I think those things are changeable with work. Like this part of not believing I am a valid person if I say something that will "hurt" others....so others fein "hurt" with me and get me to change my mind (or used to).
It's all familiar territory that clearly was meant to be revisited by me at this time.
I will miss my T sooo much. That may be part of why I am worn out tonight...although she calls my life and issues with my ex, "the Hundred Years WAR".
thank you again for the EMPOWERING energy.
Hops, thanks also for the reminder....its repetition that changes things....and this is new for me. Maybe it's preparing me for the real battle I will have in the spring....in this case, this landscaper was small potatoes compared to the big fight coming....so I will be ready.
I feel very appreciated and dare I say, loved by your caring and bolstering. I am so grateful.
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Yep, you dare.
Thanks, Mum.
A gift received is one given.
:)
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Sela, thank you for this:
I can say: "I feel very angry", to someone, without thinking it's wrong, or awful, or dangerous. But more importantly......I am aware of feeling angry. That's a big thing for me.
That will be a big thing for me too, one day.
Thanks for holding it up.
Hops
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quote]Jacmac:
IMO, though, I've never experienced nor do I think there is now "excess conflict" on the board.
Jac, do you think there is excess conflict in the middle east? :P
There many reasons why someone may not answer your questions there and then other than not caring about your feelings, such as having a bad day, too much laundry, feeling the environment is too inflamatory to be properly understood, too many questions being asked by too many people at teh same time, feeling upset etc. Jac, be a pal and gimme a break if I didn't answer some of your questions right now, OK?
In general, from my point of view, it is not conflict per se so much but modus operandi that I find really very upsetting. Even combat has rules of engagement. To name a few specific things I simply abhor are:
-- Personal attacks, calling names, character assasination, completely unfounded accusations.
-- Digging out past posts, about very personal issues, and putting them out of context to make an argument against the poster. This one I consider a great violence.
-- Not respecting one party's right to disengage.
Its true that conflict can occur when each party is trying to be heard. But it can also occur
when one party is trying to silence others or tries to drown them out. I'm not saying you are, I'm just saying there can be many reasons for conflict.
It also raises the question of whether people's desire to be heard is stifled by an excess of conflict. We don't know how many people don't speak up or simply leave if conflict is endemic.
If the atmosphere becomes too threatening, too hard, too painful or worse for them then maybe that is a measure of excessive conflict? And maybe the board isn't functioning at its optimum for the maximum number of people possible.
Mud, I think there is a bias in the dialogue we observe because those who are fine with conflict obviously speak up, but those who are quiet, withdrawn, give others benefit of doubt, etc. may not be as vocal. Let us say you (and pleese, not you as in Mud) don't like something I said, but you don't take offense. Then the same situation arises where you say something that upsets me, and I loudly decide to confront you. This happens second time. So it convinces me (and others) that you are the one who is always causing the upset, when in reality it is rather unfair because I give you benefit of doubt and you don't give me any. This is especially applicable when we are talking about fine points of tones, nuances, etc. It appears to me that members, including you, who use somewhat male/rational tone are at the receiving end of frequent complaints of perceived slights etc.
It is true that each of the parties is trying to be heard, but as they say in psyche literature that we
from N families spin wheels trying to recreate our dysfunctional family elsewhere. So I may be trying to get Mud to hear me the way my mother never heard me, gimme unconditional love and be nice to me even when I am calling him names and throwing dishes at him, listen to my story at the exclusion of everyone else's, etc. However, Mud is not my mother and he cannot do all that for me. So I may continue to feel unheard until I get the exact response I want from Mud, and feel rejected and enraged when that does not happen and he draws boundaries. Speaking for Mud, as someone from an abusive family (this is all hypothetical, my convoluted academic language, and no, I don't presume to speak for anyone in reality) it is really important to stand up and defend his turf and protect his boundaries, to not give anyone an inch more than he is willing. This cannot be sorted out by dialogue between me and Mud, but only by going within me and working it out, to stop trying to look for that mother out there in the world.
I am all the way with Brigid in what she said about conflict. I really stand up for my loved ones, environment, other things that are important to me, and simply cannot and will not engage in discussions of fine nuances or vulgar accusations. I am also willing to go a step further and go on a limb to have a dialogue with a fellow poster if I construe it as genuine and fruitful and when we are really communicating, but when I feel that discussion is not fruitful, I back off and refuse to be apologetic about it. We all come to cyberspace with limited time and energy, so as BJ put it so nicely in another thread, if we engage in conflict, it'd better be for something worthwhile.
Hops, somewhere you mentioned big fight having an entertainment value too. Boy, could I tell! :wink: Calls from onlookers: show us more skin, give us more feelin'
Seriously, cheers and a pat on the back to you for candidly mentioning it because a lot of times when there is a very public conflict, it is propelled by many reasons less noble than a genuine desire for communication, both on parts of parties who are engaged in the conflict as well as some of the onlookers who jump in the frey.
The way I used to express it was more like, (forgive me Marta I don't mean this cruelly)...something like the kind of voice I hear in Marta's pain and fury. I think there's fear there, and the lecturing tone that got others' teeth gritted really sounded like an attempt to push away. Somehow when people get super-rational or hotly cold (Red Type) I get nervous. (Likewise, when you're all emotional glop like I can be, that's not helpful either.)
No need to forgive you because no offense was taken, I realize that it was not meant with hurtful intentions, but this is not even remotely like me. There was certainly no attempt to push away out of fear.However, as Brigid said earlier, I cannot and will not engage in certain types of arguments. In this argument my buttons were not pushed but I just really wanted it to end. To use Mum's vocabulary, i am not into reactive stuff anymore. I realize that a lot of folks are uncomfortable with rational voice, and kept asking me to show more feelin', like onlookers demanding a notch higher scale in an opera performance if you will. It's like, don't feel your own feelings but feel the ones I think I would feel, and the ones you are feeling can't really be right. Another thing is what Bliz had mentioned back then is that when certain public events happen, including acrimonious board conflicts, other people use it to somehow feel and express their feelings in their own personal lives that are entirely unrelated to that event, and this keeps propelling the conflict.
The world abounds with projections. I just saw a documentary by Errol Morris on Robert Mcnamara, where RM admitted that Vietnam was was actually based on a projection, US not understanding why Vietnamese were fighting or what they were fighting for, but simply projecting on them. THis reference is not brought up as a political statement on the war, but admission of projections we make even at national level on others, an admission made by onetime US secretary of defense and president of ford motors and also world bank, no less.
Mum, on knowing why we feel anger, i agree it is very important, to go beyond teh "triggers" and know why.
With the rock block, you gotta stick to your guns and get your rock! It only seems fair that you do get your rock! It is really not fun to engage in these conflicts, but sometimes you gotta. Sometimes labels like attachment/detachment can get in the way. For me, detachment that springs on its own from our life experiences is liberating, and one that has to be cultivated and forced may be inhibiting. You certainly seem to love your rock, so go for it! Small pleasures mean a lot and carry us far in life. Mum, hugs to you, Marta
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And yet now, I do not feel great. I feel exhausted. I wish I had not engaged in anything, either explaining myself or anything.
But I think I would feel worse if I looked at my awful yard every day, looking at a failure of sticking up for myself.
BUT , I still feel bad that I got my way.....What is wrong with me????
oh I think in much of the US there's still this pressure on women to 'be a nice lady'...maybe you stepped outside of this, thus shocking him to the core! Bet he'll be more careful with his orders in future!
I do understand the fear thing...but most of what we fear is internal; I doubt he'll harm your property or dogs etc.
Growing up I remember this hand of fear clutching my heart- it actual felt physical with faster heartbeat/ breathing etc...whenever I stepped outside what was the expected norm.
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Hi mum,
I'm glad you have confronted your worst fear. And come out in one piece. Your daughter is just letting her underground thoughts finally surface and be seen. I'm sure they were not created by this event.
Try this. When your contractor tries to get you to approach his solution, which means giving him more money, or whatever, try to go the other way. For example, when he suggests that none of his other clients yell at him, then say, ok well I see we have a problem working together. So just take the rock out and I'll find someone else to do the other work. Then let him try to salvage the additional work and by the way, remember who is the client here. (This is the 'soviet' solution in the book "you can negotiate anything". It is considered the most effective.)
When he says that it will cost him $2800, say, oh is that a large amount for you? I thought you were pretty successful. Do you have the funds to complete the other work? Is cashflow a big problem for you? Are you saying you need a loan from me? Let him convince you that he is not on the brink of bankruptcy. Just keep him on the defensive.
If he is worth his salt, he will find a place to offload the rock. It's not your issue. You can point this out too - most business people have ways to turn around materials they don't need - have you never encountered this before? How long have you been in business? Maybe you can get some advice from someone with more experience.
I can go on but you get the gist.
Good luck
Plucky
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mum,
I guarantee that if this guy has been in business for any length of time, you are not the first person who has be upset with something he did. I don't think there is a contractor on earth who has always made their customers happy and never had to come back and redo or repair something.
One suggestion I have is to find the website in your area for your circuit courts and search the name of his company to see if they have had any lawsuits in the past. I have used this information on many occasions and it is a valuable tool for finding out about potential dating partners, to possible driving violations of your kid's friends, to business dealings. If you have trouble finding it, contact a lawyer in your area and they will know how. Maybe this is not available in AZ, but it's worth a try.
Blessings,
Brigid
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Hi all
Mum... I'm so glad to hear you got everything sorted. Must be a relief.
Brigid... that's a great idea about looking them up. We have a site called Companies House where we can do a search and see if their "proper" companies. I never thought about using it though.
Take care
H&H xx
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Thanks for the continued support. I did mention the Registrar of Contractors....and that I was sure "he didn't want me to contact them" (I did some research: if a contractor has only 2 unresolved complaints in five year...their license is pulled!) and that it was "my attorney" who told me to stop the check. That's when things "deteriorated" into him saying no one has ever talked to him like this, etc. I was actually rather unemotional when I mentioned those things.
He did flip out about the check. I told him I would release it again as soon as the removal started (it did today). I did respond to his "no one has ever been unhappy" remark with, "then you haven't been in business very long, have you? " And when he said "you are the first who has been unhappy" I said, "now I'm sure you will do whatever you can so that I am the last"
Anyway, the check hasn't even been presented to my bank, so I called him and told him it was released, his tone changed.
I do think he is rather new at this, as he was confused as to how long it would take to "release" the funds again (one phone call...) and his lack of understanding of the products he installs was what started the whole problem.
There may also be a cultural thing going on, too....which leads me into two things: sexist attitudes and difficulty with the language. He may also be simply not too bright. But whatever the case is, none of this should be my problem at all.
the job needs to be done right to get his payment.
As far as being attached to my rock....yeah, I am. My home and it's grounds are one thing that I take sooo much pleasure in. If you came to my home, you would know this. I have handrubbed every finishes on every wall, as that is one of my areas of work, and my gardens are a source of great peace for me and everyone who comes over. Yup, I care about this a lot... .and I intuitively know, that a person whose aesthetic and lifestyle is similar to mine, will buy and love this house and feel "home". I know this is important.
You know what's funny? If this guy is kind and nice about the rest of this transaction, and he does a marvelous job....I may try to scrape together some extra money to give him (not a huge amount, of course). But I will wait to see how I feel at the end, and if it is because of guilt that I do that, I will feel like a sucker again, and I won't do that to myself.