Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board

Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Dr. Richard Grossman on February 16, 2006, 06:16:29 PM

Title: Message board wounds
Post by: Dr. Richard Grossman on February 16, 2006, 06:16:29 PM
Many of us on this board can find at the deepest layers of our selves (if you consider the self to be onion-like) little or nothing of value.  (See my post Bump, Bump, Bump http://www.voicelessness.com/disc3/index.php?topic=148.0  for example).  This is not a misread of memory, but a realistic imprint of the textual and subtextual messages we received from family, peers, and others.  These wounds are scarred over, and we try (sometimes desperately) to keep them closed.   We are not always successful however, particularly in the face of criticism—even when the criticism comes from people we do not know very well.

The result is almost unbearable (if not unbearable) pain and despair as our worthlessness and voicelessness are fully exposed.  (Therapy, in fact, results in the exposing of this pain—and resisting the inclination to re-cover it quickly—so the wound can heal naturally over time in the context of a new loving attachment.)

From time to time, as a result of conflict and disagreement, we see wounds open up on the board.  The immediate natural inclination to such an event is to defend our positions/selves, quickly to re-cover the injury, to say in effect:  “you are wrong about me…I am not like that…I have value.”  The stakes—the viability of the self—are incredibly high.  My hope, however, is that we can also use these wounds to self-observe—I’m not referring just to the participants in the conflicts, but the readers as well.  Look at the vehemence and passion required to protect/restore our selves.  Understand it, qualitatively and quantitatively, as a measure of the protection we needed and lacked from critical (both meanings) people in our pasts.  Think about the destruction done to our selves because historically we had no protection.  Talk about it, cry about it, own it.  Here, we are all fighting for our lives.

Richard 

Title: Re: Message board wounds
Post by: movinon on February 16, 2006, 07:48:34 PM
Mmmmmmmmm,

Nicely put
Title: Re: Message board wounds
Post by: jordanspeeps on February 16, 2006, 08:31:28 PM
Dr. G,

I really, really needed that.  I'm still crying, and have been all last night and today.  Once the tears start, it's frightening how steadily and painfully they flow.  It's come to passionate, gutteral, screams as of late.  All those years of denial robbed me of the opportunity to ponder or to bemoan my situation.  So here I am, in reality, now so completely weak, fragile, scathingly angry and hurt.  In the past days/months I've processed so many negative emotions, I think I know what people who consider suicide feel. I would never leave my sweet, little girl all alone with no mommy, though.  But, I can also relate to that worthless, value-less feeling at the core of myself. I expressed this very thing to my husband just this afternoon.

I've never felt so desperate and destitute, as I have since learning of this NPD sickness in my parents/family.  I want to move on and quell these emotions but sometimes they effervesce straight to the top and explode.  I've been arguing with my husband and not very productive at work. I just got a letter to come back to my OB/GYN for a biopsy, am not sleeping well, and I'm yoga breathing to stave off panic attacks.  I'm not sure why I'm baring my soul, but I just really need all the crap of my life to go OUT and some of the GOOD STUFF to get inside.  I just feel so ill-equipped for being capable of getting it most times... here lately.  I did not have these problems when I was in denial. I used to think my "life" and family's way of being was actually normal and OK.  As a matter of life and death, do I believe I am going to have to honestly, openly, deal with my short-comings and fears and pain.

This evening, my husband and daughter brought this Hallmark card home to me:
 
From time to time, we all lose sight of who we are.
Especially then, it helps to be reminded that each of us is a shining star, a miracle of light and potential.
You are a person of amazing inner strength and courage.
Trust the light in you heart to illuminate your path.

My five year old couldn't understand why I burst into tears.  (She never really sees me cry).  I thanked her, gave her the biggest hug, and got my butt outta bed.  Thanks Hubby, Thanks Hallmark, thanks Dr. G.  I really really really needed that tonight.

Tiffany
Title: Re: Message board wounds
Post by: Plucky on February 17, 2006, 03:19:55 AM
Dr. G, thank you for posting this.   I can't say any more right now.
Plucky
Title: Re: Message board wounds
Post by: Portia on February 17, 2006, 07:06:40 AM
Thanks for your post Richard. About this:

at the deepest layers.. of our selves little or nothing of value. This is not a misread of memory, but a realistic imprint of the textual and subtextual messages we received from family, peers, and others. 

“This is not a misread of memory” really hits home with me and confirms what struck me last night. I shall put that elsewhere because it was an aha moment. “Realistic imprint” makes sense to me.


Tiffany:

I'm not sure why I'm baring my soul, but I just really need all the crap of my life to go OUT and some of the GOOD STUFF to get inside.  I just feel so ill-equipped for being capable of getting it most times... here lately. 

Me too. I felt stupid and worthless and so ignorant and so emotional compared to everyone else here. True. I still get toxic stuff. All the time. It all re-cycles and each time it comes up, we just have to deal with it. Like a physical illness. If we keep wanting to vomit up poison, well, vomit it up. If we keep it inside we poison ourselves. I hope I can cope with vomit here, other peoples’ as well as my own. We all do it once in a while. We’re all human and we’re in it together. 

I did not have these problems when I was in denial. I used to think my "life" and family's way of being was actually normal and OK. 

Me too. Rarely, sometimes, I have a kind of wistful view of that time... When I acted out and ground my teeth every night, got illnesses, had muscle-spasm all day across my neck….I think it gets better, not worse. Although some days it might feel unbearable. Change is the constant!

As a matter of life and death, do I believe I am going to have to honestly, openly, deal with my short-comings and fears and pain.

Your short-comings? Or the short-comings of those you raised you? What happened to you does not constitute what makes ‘you’, you. It’s what you do with what was handed to you. Also: A mistake is not a person, it is an event.

Fears and pain are important things to deal with. Talk about them. Start a thread. Please use your voice Tiffany.
Title: Re: Message board wounds
Post by: movinon on February 17, 2006, 08:46:44 AM
Tiffany - it sounds like these are godd, CLEANSING tears.  Let them flow.  It's valuable for your daughter to see also.  It does not mean you're weak.  You are feeling your feelings!!! Congtatulations!!!!

You're right though...you need to fill up that empty space.  Ask for what you need.  Have your girlfriends nurture you.  Take a quite walk and take in nature, but fill up that space you've made empty w/ something good and with intention before it gets filled in w/ something negative.

Hang in there. :?

Movinon
Title: Re: Message board wounds
Post by: Sela on February 17, 2006, 09:14:56 AM
Dear Dr. G:

I'm trying to understand your post.  I think, to simplify it, you're saying that something can be learned/gained/healed by looking at our role in conflicts that arise on the board??? (and even by those reading and not involved in the actual conflict).  And that is....we can look for and discover which wounds from the past have been exposed and reflect on the real imprint all of that has left on us, deep inside and how that imprint is of little or no value (usually)?
I can be way off, so please let me know if I've misinterpreted or misunderstood.

Ok....so I'm looking at my role in the conflict.  I'm looking for the wound that was opened (deep down in the layers, and it's quite true what you say....it's way in there, way back there from the past.....my childhood).  I think I posted about this in the "anything" thread but I'll repeat for clarity.  I didn't realize really that I was peeling layers but now that I think about it, I guess that's what I did over there.  But I might have covered them up too quickly.  I'm not sure.

When I feel dismissed by someone, the wound that opens is one that was created by my parents who often ...frequently.....habitually yelled:  "Shut-up!!" at me, my sibblings and at eachother (mainly at eachother....to be more than fair) during my childhood.  When someone defines everyone on this board into two groups, and chooses one group.....when I ask which group have they decided I'm in .....when the answer that is given is......that I should go figger it out myself and the thread is then locked....I feel dismissed.  I feel like I've been told to "Shut-up!!" (just not in those words).

I felt dismissed when that happened here.

So ya, you're absolutely right....my feeling stems from that deeply covered wound from way back.  But back then, I was little.  I couldn't defend myself.  I couldn't even complain without something dangerous happening or something even more painful.   I was afraid back then and my coping mechanism was to hide, do something to drown out the pain, and as I grew older, to leave.  But never, never, ever was it safe to say:  "Hey!  I won't shut up.  That's rude. That's mean.  That's inconsiderate.  Selfish.  Childish.  Etc and I feel dismissed.  Voiceless."

Now, I'm a big girl and I don't choose to cope by hiding, drowning or leaving.  I choose to speak back and say what I think and feel.  I choose to use my voice and I hope to be heard.

I do own the wound that was created in childhood (I mean it's mine....not anyone else's pain and I have to deal with it).

I do think it will continue to be exposed when anyone dismisses me or sometimes when I see others being treated like that.

I'm not sure I need to cry any more about what my parents did but I do have to be careful not to take out what they did to me on anyone else, just because someone might behave in a way that reminds me of the past and how my parents behaved.  That would not be fair or right at all and it certainly has no value or use.  It's harmful to myself and others.

So I will own that too.  That maybe part of my reaction was projection, or more accurately, partly I was speaking back to my parents.   "Don't tell me to Shut-up!!  I won't!!  I'm not afraid! Not any more!  My reaction is valid!  I feel mistreated.  Like I'm worthless.  As if what I have to say is worthless.  Not valid.  It's wrong to do that and good parents don't do it to their kids! Please try to be better parents!!  Please don't speak like that to me again.  It's totally rude, mean, inconsiderate, selfish, childish and very disrespectful!!"

They're both deceased so I might be wasting my time.  Maybe not.  I feel better now.  Clearer about what happens for me and like I've had a chance to reveal my wound, so others might understand.  I hope that will happen.

Thankyou for the opportunity to talk about it.

Ofcourse, I have an easier time linking my own pain to my own past than I ever will have trying to
link anyone else's pain to their past (it's pretty unlikely that I will do that with any luck at all and it's not my responsibility for sure---even though I'd gladly try if they wanted me to--by guessing). So I hope, to hear more from others and about their layers, if they feel like talking about them, and maybe that will help them feel better too.  That will also probably help me to understand them better, which is definately something I would like to do.

Sela
Title: Re: Message board wounds
Post by: Marta on February 17, 2006, 09:36:04 AM
Richard,

Nice. Very nice. Thanks about putting this up.

Quote
(Therapy, in fact, results in the exposing of this pain—and resisting the inclination to re-cover it quickly—so the wound can heal naturally over time in the context of a new loving attachment.)

Thank you for the clarification -- it was much called for.

Quote
The immediate natural inclination to such an event is to defend our positions/selves, quickly to re-cover the injury, to say in effect:  “you are wrong about me…I am not like that…I have value.”


Sometimes what we hear instead may be is, “I have value because you are wrong because you are worthless.” That is what I hear when fellow board members are suddenly “exposed” on thread after thread as Ns, evil, emotional vampires, you name it. When our fragile admissions of worthlessness, revealed on this board in our most vulnerable moments -- for this is what many of us come here for --are dug out of the board archives and slammed in our face as conclusive evidence or proof of our worthlessness, that feels like an act of violent betrayal of trust, of highest order really. Is this all necessary and helpful, even to those who may be unthinkingly do it? Could this perhaps deepen the message board wounds instead of healing them? Or may be heal them the wrong way?

Quote
Look at the vehemence and passion required to protect/restore our selves.

Richard, I worry that these words could be misconstrued to accelerate the Dionysian bias that already exists on this board, which is perhaps at the very crux of a lot of miscommunication and conflicts on this board in the first place, where feelings publicly expressed most vehemently and passionately are often perceived to be “real.” Who is to say whether Shakespeare’s Othello was hurting more than Kafka’s K.? Who is to say that privately playing violin is any less legitimate outlet for dealing with knee jerk ouch anger than proclaiming one’s anger at a fellow poster in a public thread? Who is to know how many more planets there are in our sky other than the ones we can see and count, and what their drift is? Why should I be pressurized here to act like someone other than who I am and speak in a voice that is just not mine?

Best, Marta
Title: Re: Message board wounds
Post by: Portia on February 17, 2006, 11:15:33 AM
No. I have to speak. I’ve changed my mind.

I don’t want Marta to contact me on the board.

I don’t want any PMs or posts from Marta to me, or about me.

I would like Marta not to refer to me, directly or obliquely.

I can’t stop her doing any of that.

Hopefully she will read this and respect my wishes.

I am not doing this any more.
Title: Re: Message board wounds
Post by: Moira on February 17, 2006, 02:31:02 PM
Hi all! I really liked what Richard had to say and I'm thankful and appreciative of his " two cents". My head is hurting! I can't read anymore of this. It has gone beyond being productive, enlightening, positive etc for me. Before i leave this thread, i will say that I'm a big fan of owning my own stuff and looking back on any exchange and seeing my part in a conflict. i don't care how righteous I am, or what under dog I'm defending, or what the cause is---I own my part in a conflict. I personally also like to stand back and take a look at whether or not I have an agenda and what is it? Sometimes there is an underlying agenda- no matter how righteous the cause there can be something in it for me( not necessarily referring to manipulation, using people etc..More reference to do I HAVE to be right?, do I have to have the last word? Do i have something to prove? Am I taking on something that really has nothing to do with me? etc). Anyway....my opinion is mine and mine alone. If someone doesn't like what I have to say- their issue, not mine. They are responsible for their feelings, I;m not. I'm not so powerful that I can MAKE anyone feel anything, think anything or do anything!Take what you like and leave the rest!! I'm outta here!  Hugs, Moira
Title: Re: Message board wounds
Post by: mudpuppy on February 17, 2006, 06:56:14 PM
Hi everybody,

I just wanted to say I've been here a year or so and I think I am only now grasping that I really don't understand a lot of the dynamics of this forum.

I wasn't raised by Ns and I have never been involved with one romantically. I do have a sibling who has caused me a great deal of distress and anger over the last few years but I view that as an external occurence, not something that I have internalized.
Maybe that's why I have stepped on toes inadvertantly, because I really don't understand some of the reactions I see.
I'm not even sure what a trigger is. Something that just ticks me off , or something that sets in motion a strong psychological/physical reaction?

When Dr. Grossman started his post talking about people feeling worthless at their core, that there is little or nothing of value, I kind of thought people would recoil at that statement. I thought people would object to it. But no one did. I personally find that thought kind of repellant. It doesn't really compute for me. I don't think I'm worth any more than anyone else, but the idea of feeling that there is little or nothing of value at my core is completely alien to me. I don't get it.

I guess that's why I seldom feel comfortable giving advice other than the practical kind, because I guess I really don't grasp a lot of the perspectives of some people here.
I don't mean any of this to make me sound better or healthier than anyone else,( I'm probably just more obtuse :?) it has just kind of been brought home lately with all this 'conflict' stuff going on how little I get how a lot of people here react to things.

The older I get the more I understand how little I understand. Especially people.

mud
Title: Re: Message board wounds
Post by: mum on February 17, 2006, 08:03:47 PM
Ignorance may be bliss. I have not really understood most of what has gone on recently on this board, with this "issue" (that I still am clueless about). I am sorry I cannot be more supportive to anyone, really, as I am that kid who is totally out of it, saying, "um, when's recess?"
So I will just say, I hope whoever is feeling strongly about anything that has gone on: I wish you happiness and peace. Yeah, I am also the kid saying, very naively: "you mean not everybody gets along on the playground?" or "there are probably ghosts or killer dinosaurs out there, that's all!"
Love and light to all.
Mum
Title: Re: Message board wounds
Post by: BJ on February 17, 2006, 08:13:18 PM
Richard,
It's always a good feeling to know you're here to keep us "on track" and thinking with care and objectivity. Your description of our ongoing maze of healing was welcomed and well-taken.
Quote
Look at the vehemence and passion required to protect/restore our selves.  Understand it, qualitatively and quantitatively, as a measure of the protection we needed and lacked from critical (both meanings) people in our pasts.  Think about the destruction done to our selves because historically we had no protection.  Talk about it, cry about it, own it.  Here, we are all fighting for our lives.
Regarding your above quote, I would like to comment on the response below by Marta.
Quote
Richard, I worry that these words could be misconstrued to accelerate the Dionysian bias that already exists on this board, which is perhaps at the very crux of a lot of miscommunication and conflicts on this board in the first place, where feelings publicly expressed most vehemently and passionately are often perceived to be “real.”

I don't pretend to know what other's think or feel, but I do have some specific thoughts I would like to share. If I understand these postings correctly, my interpertation of Richard's comment is different. I understood him to mean that the amount of dysfunction in our past , brought with us in our life today, is directly related to the intensity of our own defense mechanisms, usually unconscious....therefore, the greater and deeper the pain, the greater need to protect the self. Simply put, the intensity of historic abuse is directly related to the intensity at which one suffers. Tiffany,
Quote
I just feel so ill-equipped for being capable of getting it most times... here lately.  I did not have these problems when I was in denial. I used to think my "life" and family's way of being was actually normal and OK.  As a matter of life and death, do I believe I am going to have to honestly, openly, deal with my short-comings and fears and pain.
I was numb for a long time and thought I liked it that way...sometimes, I still do. But when I see clearly, pain and all, I'm glad to feel life. Pain is a sign of life and I always know joy comes after the pain. Joy could not be recognized without pain and ,IMO, any extreme emotion is still better than indifference.
And Mudpuppy,
Quote
When Dr. Grossman started his post talking about people feeling worthless at their core, that there is little or nothing of value, I kind of thought people would recoil at that statement. I thought people would object to it. But no one did. I personally find that thought kind of repellant. It doesn't really compute for me. I don't think I'm worth any more than anyone else, but the idea of feeling that there is little or nothing of value at my core is completely alien to me. I don't get it.
Not to be confused with "rotten to the core"...Here, IMO, I understand Dr. G to mean that when a child is rendered worthless (ignored/alone/less than)by the most important influential people in their life, the unfortunate result is to the core. The pain is so ingrained or "imprinted" that it must first be recognized for what it is, and then the work of healing and how to heal can and must begin. At this point, I have found there is no turning back.  With love from a believable, consistent, compassionate source, I am finally starting to internalize that I AM OK...at my core. My opinion of me is finally starting to be what matters most. I can finally know what it truly means to love yourself before you can fully love someone else. I always knew there was more to that than I understood. I have also felt how love can actually change my brain...therefore, my insecure thinking and need to passionately protect can begin to change, as well. This has been, and continues to be, a very slow and difficult process... with a great desire to learn all I can from everywhere. I feel I am in the "middle of the middle" of this process, and I already I know I usually feel better and will be better. Maybe my poem below will describe this better for me.

GANESH
Daggers dancing down my spine
Silently spinning loud in time
Chilling thrilling willing pain
Feel its fury or it will remain

Unfold the force that lies within
Like the vibrant vibes of the violin
Guide us home, lead the way
Full of love, we must convey

Tenderness humbles temptation and trust
Explore the splendor and now adjust
Action attraction lightens the load
Reaped is equal to what is sowed

Fancy-free for you from me
What exclamations live inside of thee?
Keep them safe, breed and flesh
Smooth as silk and floral fresh.

On this board, I appreciate celebrating our differences and learning from this. This, too, greatly benefits my healing. Thanks everyone!  BJ
Title: Re: Message board wounds
Post by: jordanspeeps on February 17, 2006, 09:09:53 PM
Gorgeous poetry, BJ.  From daggers to silk flowers, the imagery is so beautiful and poignant in my mind.  My favorite and most relevent line is the "chilling, thrilling, willing, pain."  The pain, at first chilling and inadvertently thrilling, has become now more willing (on my part).  Beautiful, BJ.

Mud, interesting viewpoint.  My husband said the "exact same thing" after thinking about the "onion analogy"  He, too dealt with much milder versions of Nism in his family than my own.  He has tremendous reserves of strength and he is Mr. Logic and Reason. Oh, and yes, there is that little matter of estrogen that has to be considered as well.  I do believe there is a fundamental difference between men and women in the way we internalize these types of things.  

Thanks movinon for saying:

Quote
You're right though...you need to fill up that empty space.  Ask for what you need.

I never do that.  I'm going to try it and see what happens.  Usually, I get upset after I feel I've been slighted despite my over-responsible and "good" behavior.  Sometimes I think overt kindness and empathy is a right I've earned through my own kindness and empathy, and don't therefore need to ask for it in return.  Some part of me thinks that's "too needy" or "clingy" or even, pathetic.  My perception was that most people earned good treatment by being "good" themselves and that left me feeling what someone described to be "toxic guilt"  All that crap builds up, and instead of just asking for say, some understanding, a moment to reflect, or just a break from it all, I let the proverbial straw break the camel's back.  My husband and I have made an agreement that the next time I'm feeling overwhelmed with feelings about my family, I should say something like, "timeout, I need a moment to vent, I'm feeling frustrated regarding x, y, z...."  seems so simple.  I'm going to try to be more conscious and give it a try.  thanks for the confirmation, movinon. good night, all.

tif
Title: Re: Message board wounds
Post by: Marta on February 17, 2006, 11:23:23 PM
Quote
Sugarre:
When I read the posts of Marta, I felt defensive although I was not the target

Sugarre, I am sorry about that. If you are referring to the posts in I am struggling to make a decision. The person who started the thread is someone I often talk to and care about a lot, and I went on a limb to go the extra mile to discuss something I've wanted to tell her. I knew that she trusts me and would give me the benefit of doubt even if she didn't like what I said or the way I said it, or was even upset by it. I don't do this with someone I don't think I have a really good rapport with. I didn't realize that others who are reading it would be triggered by it. I am sorry.

The point I was trying to make is that what we do up here on the message board is somewhat different from therapy. The feedback I would get here would be different from feedback in therapy. As Richard nailed the point in his post, if I understood him correctly, in therapy we resist quickly recovering from our wounds and let them heal naturally, but on message board quick defenses are necessary and often used. Whether we go deeper and peel the layers or not, or how deep we go, is entirely up to us. The direction in which I would grow here is may be somewhat different that the direction I would grow in therapy. So if she is relying simply on the message board as her sole lifeline, I wanted her to be aware of that.

I think communicatiion is difficult when so many wounded people come together. I am all the way with you in that this board is based on suppor and reflection, not accusations. I don't like ascribing you intentions to me, I'd extended you a hand in good faith based on our past positive exchanges. I realize that you felt accused by what I said, but then there are others out there who didn't, and agreed with what I said, whether privately or publicly.

Quote
But your point has certainly provoked a lot of angst on this board.  Is that your point?  Is this all about you?

No, quite the contrary. I had not intended the angst, and believe me I'd never have made the point if I had anticipated that it would never have made it. However, now that it is out in the open, if it made even one person realize that possibility of being stuck at the outer levels of the onion in our communication, which I feel that quick responses on message boards do sometimes, then it would make me feel that it was worthwhile.

Hop, yes, I trust you that you don't mean to hurt, but I don't feel heard by you. As I've indicated many times, I wish to be myself, not you or anyone else. Let me be myself, feel my feelings my way, and express myself my way. I really dislike when I say no and someone just doesn't back off. When I ask you to stop, please stop. The dangers are real when a roomful of wounded people try to adminster therapy to each other.

BJ, Yes I had understood what dr. G meant. But I only wanted clarify that, as I understand it, in the context of the dynamics of this board. Passion is felt in different ways and expressed differently.
By the way, What a lovely thing to say....
Quote
I have also felt how love can actually change my brain...

PS: Please clarify in your posts whether you are talking abour conflict 1 or conflict 2.
Title: Re: Message board wounds
Post by: Portia on February 18, 2006, 11:50:56 AM
Mud, hiya

Just a quickie to say thank you for your real, honest post and to say, hey, I understand now! You are a saner guy than I, I feel. No wonder some of us (me) make your head hurt. Sorry for that. I enjoyed reading your healthy perception back there. Thanks 8) gotta scoot :arrow:
Title: Re: Message board wounds
Post by: Marta on February 18, 2006, 02:51:07 PM
Sela,

Your anger is as powerful as your voice, so I feel as though you hit me with a rock for throwing a stone at you. But I still feel treated tenderly by you. In my heart I feel only warmth for you.

Why?

I saw you as someone who was simply trying to be who she was, trying to find her voice. Unlike others, you did not saddle me with an iota more than what I saw as my due. Unlike others, you did not feel the need to hurt me in order to heal your hurts. You were not sarcastic, malicious, hurtful. If you overwhelmed me, it was only by the sheer intensity of your reaction, not by covering me all over with goo. Amen to that.

Yes, I see us all divided into two categories in how we handle conflicts. I unequivocally want as little board conflict as possible. To me this didn't and still doesn't seem like a lot. But I see that it felt different in your skin. I will never really be able to connect to that fully, I really don't know what that feels like, because I was never silenced in the same way. You see, in my family, everyone said whatever they wanted, YUCK. But I hear what that felt like to you. I felt your rejection and despair.

I will tell you how I felt. In the first conflict, just because someone didn't like my tone, suddenly my integrity was attacked, poison was injected in my words spoken with great affection for someone, my expression of goodwill for others were derided as acts of malice. To me, that is the lowest rung of hell where I grew up-- where good things were somehow turned into bad and good intentions were labelled as bad -- until I slowly found my way out with great difficulty. I am simply not going back to that place.  Like you, I'm a big girl now and will simply not let my soul be corroded with that poison again. The only way I can cope with it is to withdraw into my shell, and just not let it in. There is simply no room for any dialogue here.

So I wished to create a room where I could lock that poison out of my life. I badly need a community of people who can understand my life experiences, but who can also handle conflicts in a different way so that when we work through it all, something worthwhile comes out. Where we build trust instead of destroying it in the way we deal with our conflicts here on the board. Where if we jump on the battle ground, it had better be for something worthwhile and real. Where before we jump and say you, we can say I. To me, it seemed simple. Post an announcement. I see that it has words which express some of the frustration I was feeling at the time here.

When I saw a post on that thread with the same poison I was trying to lock out of my life, calling me an N for being nice to others, using my own past posts to make the point, my skin crawled. I just locked the thread and I wasn't going to reopen it. It was not to silence Sela but to protect Marta.

Sorry Sela that I hurt you, and thank you Sela for being nice.

Sugarre, you are the one who has really made me angry, may be because I did not expect an out of the blue attack on my integrity from you.
What you said was:
I felt defensive => Marta posted in an accusatory manner
Your point has provoked angst on board => Is it all about you?

Do you see that one little step called reflection that is missing here?

And, I don't blame you. 
But you did very well in apportioning the blame?

BEFORE you feel so smugly entitled to attack my integrity, you missy, put that reflection step out there. Show it to me.

What is YOUR point sugarre, that I must never ever utter words that will angst you? That if I ever do so, hell will be raised and my integrity will be attacked?

Shall we do some reality check here? Angst on board does not seem to me as much about my that twiddly stupid little post as about this persistent hell of this conflict that went spiralling downwards for over two weeks. Did it occur to you that if I was saying anything you didn't like or agree with, you could simply have PMed me and asked me hi Marta what is going on? Do you see the difference between feeling accused by someone's tone and actually accusing someone of lack of integrity?
Title: Re: Message board wounds
Post by: jordanspeeps on February 18, 2006, 04:45:30 PM
Two quick things:

1.) It's like what my great-aunt Dorothy used to always say, when I was confused as to what kind of person I was dealing with,
If it walks, talks, acts like a duck...... 

and

2.)  there's an e-book, named "Think Like a Shrink: 100 Principles for Seeing Deeply into Yourself and Others", (cute title) wherein one chapter, she says something like: "You can gather a lot about a conversation by the way the person closes or says goodbye."  she proffers that the most important content and intention in a person's dialogue is given in the very last words. 
Often people orchestrate an entire initial conversation complete with sweetness and lights, only to deliver the most brutal and purposeful meaning right there at the end.

something to chew on, but quickly though, before it's removed.  :o

tiffany
Title: Re: Message board wounds
Post by: Portia up late on February 18, 2006, 06:34:59 PM
Dear Voicelessness board

You have helped me so much. Thank you. In cyberspace I have found reality, and that is pretty good going in my book.

I suspended my disbelief and found help.

Everyone can find a space for themselves here.

Night all, best P
Title: Re: Message board wounds
Post by: mudpuppy on February 18, 2006, 08:33:44 PM
Hi Portia,

Well I didn't mean to imply I was more or less sane than anyone. Maybe I'm just less introspective. :?

Nor did you alone make my head hurt. It also hurt because I was having a hard time following all the permutations of who was saying what to whom about what and at what particular time and so forth and so on and now my brain is starting to hurt again just thinking about it. :P

I must admit I'm kind of tempted to tell everyone to just shut up for awhile, for crying out loud, but that would be imposing voicelessness on others and preventing healing so I guess I'll go play with my new shop vac. For the time being I find sucking up spiders more therapeutic than the board.

mud
Title: Re: Message board wounds
Post by: Portia on February 19, 2006, 11:14:02 AM
Bean
Can people tell how hollow I am inside?

No, but if you say so, I believe that’s what you feel/think.
You don’t sound hollow to me when you speak; like many voices I hear here, I think you sound way too IQ and EQ intelligent to handle life without hurting. Can we live without hurting? I don’t think so. But we are alive  :D   I’d love to hear more from your depths Bean.

Mud
You often tell it like it is and I like that!  8) Thanks. I often wish I was less introspective. True! Being here helps a lot, getting words out of my head allows me to look at them and see if I’ve changed my mind since I wrote them. Oh that reminds me, I found this quote last night. I like it:

The little girl had the making of a poet in her who, being told to be sure of her meaning before she spoke, said, ‘How can I know what I think till I see what I say?’

(Graham Wallas, The Art Of Thought 1926).
Title: Re: Message board wounds
Post by: Healing&Hopeful on February 19, 2006, 11:57:01 AM
Hiya all

I have learnt a lot in this recent conflict, not just about the different ways others react, but also how conflict affects me.

I hope that we all find healing and our voice, that over time we realise that we are worthwhile people, that other's hear us and each and everyone one of us gains the ability to perceive posts as intended.

Take care

H&H xx
Title: Re: Message board wounds
Post by: Portia on February 20, 2006, 09:49:59 AM
Bean, thanks many times for your post above. I was just making a difficult job for myself when I realised you had already made it so easy.

We need to resolve This conflict (which is very real to me) because then we can attempt to solve the other real conflicts, better, now and in the future, in our lives.

Yes I agree with you. I’d also like to repeat your previous post too, about rights and responsibilities in a conflict:

Your responsibilities include:
1.  approaching the other person in a polite, problem-solving way to work things out.
2.  avoiding actions (like gossip) that make the situation worse.
3.  a willingness to recognize that you have probably contributed to the problem.
4.  listening to the other person rather than trying to convince or bully them.
5.  seeking help from others in a dignified, open and constructive way.


Okay. (1) Can I say I’d like to approach Marta to work things out? I will avoid (2). I have definitely (3) contributed to the problem. I am willing to (4) listen to Marta. I’m seeking everyone’s help (5) by posting this. If you want to comment to me about me, let me know!

Your rights include:
1.  setting behavioral limits and consequences when nasty, abusive behaviour is directed at you.
2.  the expectation that the other person will work in an open problem solving and courteous way.
3.  an expectation that management will help, but may not be able to solve the problem without your cooperation and that of the other person.


I believe I did (1) when I said:

I don’t want Marta to contact me on the board.
I don’t want any PMs or posts from Marta to me, or about me.
I would like Marta not to refer to me, directly or obliquely.


And I would like to thank Marta for respecting my wishes since. I’ve appreciated that. I would now like to revoke those three requests and say that Marta can contact me on the board or via PM, she can refer to me etc.

With (2) I would like to be able to expect that. I’m still respecting Marta’s wish that I don’t contact her though. If her wish changes, I need it communicating to me in some way.

Finally (3) fair enough.

I wasn’t sure how to approach this and I want to say the obvious - I can’t speak for anyone else, only myself. So I’m doing that and hope that it will help.
Title: Re: Message board wounds
Post by: Sela on February 21, 2006, 11:19:52 AM
Dear Marta:

This is another long one.   (Imagine meee........writing a long, long post!! :shock: ).  Grab a coffee or tea or juice or a black russian ( :D) or whatever.  Thankyou in advance, for reading it.

I'm not sure how else to point out that I do not like having my thoughts or feelings defined except to say that I do not like having my thoughts and feelings defined.  Ofcourse, I contributed to the problem by not saying that right away.  I could have pointed that out immediately and been very clear.  Sorry I didn't do that.

"Your anger is as powerful as your voice..."

This statement defines my feeling as anger, which is definately not what I am feeling and I'm not sure if you feel angry and so you are assuming I feel angry too, or if you are assigning some angry tone to my posts, or what?  I only know that I don't feel the least bit angry toward you and that I have no idea why you insist on saying that I do.

And not only that...but now...I have some powerful anger, according to you, and a powerful voice to match.  I just do not think that what I've posted on this thread, sounds like that but if that's what you're hearing, then that's what you're hearing and I'm absolutely powerless to change what you're hearing, or how you're interpreting it, or how you're defining it, or anything else inside your head.

I don't feel angry.  I wish you would quit deciding that I am.  My voice has no more power than yours or anyone else's.   Please stop defining me.

"I saw you as someone who was simply trying to be who she was...."

I'm not at all sure what you mean here.  It's another definition that I simply don't understand.  I still am.......Marta.  It's not who I was.  I haven't given up the ghost yet ( :shock: :D--or become one :D..yet!!).  I presume you are trying to say something nice.  Thankyou for trying.  I appreciate it and let me know if that's not what you're trying to do.   I'm being picky here about the words used.....because I find them confusing.

"so I feel as though you hit me with a rock"

Would you kindly point out exactly what I wrote in this thread that gave you this feeling?  I'm not sure
if I need to explain what I meant, or say I'm sorry.  I'm certainly sorry that you are feeling this and I can assure you that I did not intend to hit you with anything.   I've tried to express my thoughts and feelings.  Maybe I haven't done a good job of that, or maybe you've misinterpreted, or misunderstood?  Is that possible Marta?  Could you be misreading.  I know I could be.  Lot's of times.  It wouldn't be the first time and it probably won't be the last.

I make mistakes Marta.  And I am sorry that something I've written has effected you this way.
Not what I want at all.

"Unlike others, you did not saddle me with an iota more than what I saw as my due."

I'm sorry to be picking appart your post, line by line.  The reason I'm doing it is because I'm really trying to understand what you're saying Marta, because I really want to understand.  Are you saying that you deserved to be hit by something that hurts like a rock?  That you deserved to be abused by me?  That the anger you think I'm feeling is justified?

I find this very confusing.  On one hand, it seems like you're saying you got what you deserved and on the other, it seems like you're saying I abused you in a big way.  If so, then what did you do that caused you to believe you deserve this?  More important....can you think of what wound was opened for you?  Can you link it to the past maybe?  I mean a time when you were abused, possibly, and believed you deserved it?  Maybe I remind you of someone?   No need to answer, if you don't feel like it either.

Was it because on your announcement thread, I questioned your defining people on this board into two groups and it looked to me like you were picking a favorite group and because I asked which group I am in, in your opinion?  Did that feel like me hitting you with a rock?  I'm really trying to understand.
Or was it the anything thread?  What I wrote there?

I don't like everyone being defined any more than I like being defined.  So I posted to your announcement.
I also wanted to know which group you think I'm in so I asked you.  I didn't decide for you Marta.  I don't like being picked as a favorite any more than I like being excluded, but I wanted to know, at least, which it was.  That's what I was seriously asking in your announcement thread.

In the anything thread, I believe I was trying to explain how I was feeling and what triggered it.

"I unequivocally want as little board conflict as possible. To me this didn't and still doesn't seem like a lot."

So what would you classify as a lot of conflict then?  And if it's not a lot of conflict, why do you feel the need to start a new group?  I don't get it.

"But I see that it felt different in your skin."

Marta, you cannot see into my skin.  You cannot see what I felt under my skin.  You cannot decide what I felt or what I feel.  Maybe you could ask instead of deciding?

"I was never silenced in the same way. You see, in my family, everyone said whatever they wanted, YUCK."

I'm sorry that you had to live in such a place Marta.  Did they say mean things, often, without seeming to care how much it hurt you?  I bet that was painful.  It hurts when people say mean things to me.  I don't like it.  Not a bit.  I'm sorry that you had to endure abusive words from people you should have been able to trust.  Were you allowed to tell them that?  Did you say:  "That was mean!  That hurt!!  Don't say that to me!  I'm supposed to be able to trust you!!" ??  What did you say, if not that?

"But I hear what that felt like to you. I felt your rejection and despair."

I understand that you are empathizing with me Marta and I appreciate it.  It's just the way you're saying it that still bugs me.  Maybe it's just something that develops around abuse?  Something that needs to be unlearned?

It would be reasonable to say:  "I hear you.  I think I would feel despair and rejection, under those circumstances".
Instead of saying:  "I felt your......"  which defines what you have decided I feel or felt.  Do you see what I'm saying?
It's better  to ask me what I feel or felt, or state what you think you might feel or have felt, than to decide forrrrrrrrrr me what I feel or felt.  That's all.

I hear other people saying something similar to you and it sounds like it is very upsetting for you and maybe confusing.  It sounds like does not mean that issssssssss happening for you, but it's what it sounds like it.  It might not be like that at all for you  I'm trying to guess.

I'm trying to explain what I mean.  I'm trying to help you understand what seems to have upset some people and what felt/feels uncomfortable for me.  I'm not the only one who doesn't like having my thoughts and feelings decided/defined for me.  That seems to be something that upsets others too.  It might be part of what's causing part of the "conflict".  I've done the same kind of thing myself before and it caused conflicts then too.  I've learned to practically erase the words:  "You think..."  ...."You feel"..... " from my vocabulary.  It's helped me to learn that.

"I will tell you how I felt in the first conflict..."

Marta which one was that?  I'm not sure what post in which thread you are talking about?

"Suddenly my integrity was attacked, poison was injected in my words, spoken with great affection for someone, my expression of goodwill for others were derided as acts of malice."

I think you're saying that you were trying to express something good and it was interpreted by others as bad??  If so, how did you feel then?  I think I would feel totally misunderstood and maybe frustrated too.  That's me.  What did you feel?  Did you say:  "I feel.................I meant ..............."??

"The only way I can cope is to withdraw into my shell."

I would argue this point strongly with you Marta.  I think you have other choices.  I also think you can do what you decide to do.  It might not be easy.  It might even be really scary but withdrawing when people misunderstand is definately not your only choice, imo.

"There is simply no room for any dialogue here."

Ok.  You don't have to talk about it.  That is also a choice.

"I wanted to create a room where I could lock that poison out of my life.  I badly need a community of people who can understand my life experiences, but who can also handle conflicts in a different way so that when we work through it all, something worthwhile comes out.  Where we build trust instead of destroying it, in the way we deal with our conflicts here on the board."

Marta, you can lock out that poison by.........not freaking out.......if someone misunderstands you or disagrees with you.  Not by hiding but by having faith in yourself and choosing to work through it, just as you've so plainly stated.  I'm confused because I don't understand why it would be easier in another room??   Also, do you think people here cannot understand your life experiences?

"...in the way we deal with our conflicts here on the board."

Marta......we who?  Who's conflicts?  What way?

It sounds like you're defining everyone, or other people in general as doing something...dealing with conflict.....in a certain way.....and only you know what that is?  This statement is very general and speaks for everyone.  It's saying that everyone on the board deals with conflict a certain way.  Do you see why that might upset some people?  Those kind of general statements.....without specifics.....which define everyone as doing something the way you see it..........upsets people, I think??

How will that change in this new room?  Ofcourse, I'm asking a lot of questions.  I don't need the answers, though, unless you feel like saying.  It just sounds to me like you might be hoping for something you could easily have right here.  Sometimes, it might be necessary to trust that nothing needs to be destroyed but it can be built up?

"I can see that it has words which express some of the frustration I was feeling at the time".

It was a call for special people Marta.  An attempt to rally a group who would be secret.  They were asked to PM you and you would decide who would be in it right?  And some people were not invited......those who think there is something to be gained by conflict, I think was the way it was worded?  I haven't gone back there to check the exact wording.

I understand that you felt frustrated.  Do you understand that by that post you were indeed rejecting some people.  People of this board who you had formed an opinion about and who you did not want in your new group?  I didn't like that idea of yours, Marta.   I think it was a bit weird, really, because it might even attract the exact opposite of what you seemed to be wanting.  It seemed prejudiced.  Exclusive.  Secret.   I think that it's ok to have other groups but not ok to make a big announcement about who and who will not be invited to join.  Not here.  Not where people are already feeling unvalued, excluded from much in life, even worthless.  That's my opinion Marta.

"I just locked the thread and I wasn't going to reopen it.  It was not to silence Sela but to protect Marta."

And reposting your announcement in a new, locked thread was for the same reason, I bet?
Did you think about how locking the thread seemed like an attempt to silence anyone else who wanted to comment?
Maybe you didn't think of that?

The other thing is....I don't think it protected you at all, did it?  I think it made things worse.  What do you think?

"Sorry Sela that I hurt you."

Apology accepted.  No problem.  I believe you did not intend to hurt me.  No worries (((Marta))).

When it comes down to it--  IIIIIIIII decide when I will be silent.

If I don't want to talk with someone, I don't.
If I have something to say, I will find a way to say it....somehow....somewhere....in some way....if I choose to.
It's impossible to silence anyone here.

It's a choice to speak/write or not to do that.  A choice to be....or not to be......silent.
(to be..........or not to be.......silent........thattttttttttt.....is the question!! :D  Probably I should soon stop eh?)

I'm not sure there is a safe place to hide from conflict,  Marta, or if it is possible to create such a place.  And even if that is possible to do in cyber space, it seems like it might be a sort of....self-defeating thing to do.  It encourages letting fear rule, I think.  Something I refuse to do, if at all possible.  Ofcourse, that's just my opinion.

The trick is to do exactly as you said -- work throught it, or, if that seems like a waste of time, to simply move on to another mode, imo.   Running away and hiding might be something a child does because there is no other choice, nothing else to do,  but as adults, I really believe we do have other choices.  And maybe I'm completely wrong to believe that but I do believe it and so far, I haven't changed my mind.

"...and thankyou Sela for being nice."

Thankyou for the compliment.  I can be nice sometimes.  I can also be rather nasty.  I'm trying here, to be honest.  I don't want to hurt you Marta and I'm sorry for anything I wrote that did that.

Sela
Title: Re: Message board wounds
Post by: Portia on February 22, 2006, 08:04:32 AM
Sela your post above really got me thinking. And as ever, what I post to others helps me, when I reflect on it. On Monday I said in another thread:

When I get threatened, I become so darn ‘right’ about what’s right for me. I get very ‘adult’ when I’m threatened.

I think is true, I do become ‘adult’ when I feel threatened. By that I mean I start to lose my curiosity and interest in the other person.

If I’m interested in something, anything, I find I’m not frightened of it. I guess that’s how the therapy works with folks who are afraid of flying, or spiders? Get them interested in the subject and the fear is replaced by knowledge? I was confused and somewhat scared by my own mind. Still am sometimes! And I found this board and discovered (1) it’s okay to get knowledge for myself and (2) I can get knowledge about how my own mind works. What a fantastic liberation it’s been so far. Truly amazing!

Anyway, if I feel threatened (and the things that threaten me can seem benign to others, I know, they’ve told me), I need to protect myself. I protect myself by defending my ‘self’ I guess. Chucking up walls of my beliefs and values. Or getting the flags out saying ‘freedom’ and getting ready to fight for those beliefs.

How many little children behave like that? When we trust the world everything is interesting! We want to touch and taste everything. But as soon as someone treats us badly, we lose our confidence I guess and start to regard things more defensively. We don’t want to risk being treated badly again, we lose the trust we had.

Okay grandmothers and eggs I know. I’m talking to myself, rehashing what I ‘know’, but what I now ‘feel’ to be true.

So where’s this going?

Well I worked out that my last post on this thread was very (in my view) ‘adult’. It’s still me in defensive mode. Why? What was I frightened of? I think in this case, with that post, I was scared of ‘doing the wrong thing’. I didn’t know how to say what I did say, so it came out all logic and strong statements. That’s me in defence mode, I recognise that now. So I thought about that and decided it was okay. It’s okay for me not to be sure about what I do and heck, if I make mistakes, so be it.

Then I thought: I don’t know if Marta knows this, so I thought I’d say it:

I felt threatened by Marta. I started to feel frightened. That’s why I behaved like I did.

I’m not saying Marta made me feel that, I’m not saying she factually threatened me, no. I’m saying that’s what I felt.

Why I felt like that is my stuff, my problem.

Hope this makes sense.
Title: Re: Message board wounds
Post by: Sela on February 22, 2006, 02:00:59 PM
Hi Portia:

I agree with Bean. 
Quote
Replacing fear with curiosity is a wonderful concept.

This following makes me wonder:

Quote
Why I felt like that is my stuff, my problem.

Where did that come from?  What past event(s) did the recent stuff remind you of?
Where and when did it start?  And will it ever end?

(No need to answer P, just thinking about it out loud eh---pondering).

That makes me ask (relating to what you wrote and applying to myself):

What makes me feel threatened?  Or, rewording, why is it so easy to feel threatened or why does the feeling of feeling threatened come up faster than other feelings sometimes?  I think I might have felt threatened by having my thoughts and feelings defined by another person.  Just like the doc said, I was defending my core.  The fear.....is losing my self (if other people define me, I might just accept it blindly?  after awhile, I won't even have an opinion---only accepted projections??) maybe?  Scary for me.

Ofcourse, for me, it seems obvious that growing up in an abusive environment was scary, even if I did my best to protect myself, as a child.  It was still scary.  And....now I'm an adult....and stuff that feels threatening or scary....pushes that same button that evokes those same feelings of real fear.   And although, I'm choosing (a lot of the time) to protect myself in different, what I hope are healthier ways......I'm still protecting my self as best I can, and fighting the fear off ...a good part of the time.   

I wish there was an "off" button :D :D for the fear stuff, especially when it seems to be trying to take charge!

Your post got me thinking too Portia.  Thanks.

 :D Sela
Title: Re: Message board wounds
Post by: declarlib on February 24, 2006, 01:26:23 AM
I wonder. It is one of the charactistics of narcissist to be very self-defensive, he can become outraged if his facade is blown. Where, I wonder, do I learn this?????

He has to be right. He has to have the last word. Where, I wonder, do I learn this?????

He has to put other people down (because only by their subordination can he experience elevation). Where, I wonder, do I learn this????

He has to maintain appearances of convention and normalcy, so his methods are silky smooth, devious, subtle and (logically) defensible. Where, I wonder, do I learn how to do this?????

Richard's post made me stop and think. Many of the "checklists" for spotting narcissists or psychopaths include this kind of reaction. This need to be right. And, also, this underlying lack of self-worth, such that they can be devastated (and outraged) by being contradicted. I am not unaware that many of my characteristics, especially insofar as I repeat the abuse I suffered onto others, derive from my "training ground." However, I often seriously wonder just how narcissistic I am ... and now much I can become self-aware of these legacies such as to overcome them. Am I one of those "incurable" narcissists? Or is there hope for me? I don't know. I have good days and bad days, but I watch myself carefully.

I am also aware in these forums and in "real" life that I have a "fix-it" button ... trying to fix narcissists, trying to help, trying to ... basically, I think, propitiate. When I see people in a mess, I want to help. Is this bad? What if they are narcissists? What if it's a set-up? What if it's none of my business? But the main question is: what is driving me? What am I wanting from that activity? A brownie point? A pat on the head? Recognition? Applause? Due to knee-jerk programming (by narcissists) my wiring is suspect. It is important for me to differentiate - to be aware of helping others because it is the human thing to do vs. helping others because I've been manipulated (suckered) into it.

Meanwhile, to this topic at hand ... I am a newbie ... I am posting this and a few other comments on different threads ... and then I am going to run away ... not to say I won't be back, but not soon ... I'm afraid to look ... afraid of being challenged or ignored ... (perhaps - and isn't this odd? - even afraid of being agreed with)!

If it looks like a naracissist, walks like a narcissist, talks like a narcissist ... is it one? Or is it just a victim, awkwardly struggling to recover?

Title: Re: Message board wounds
Post by: Hopalong on February 24, 2006, 08:39:18 AM
Hey Declar,
There's a continuum and it's not B & W. If someone is extremely narcissistic or has full-blown NPD, imo they wouldn't be worrying about it as you are. But you may indeed have some narcissitic traits, wired or taught.

Welcome to the club. I call them Nspots. I feel spurts of grandiosity, sometimes outrage at being contradicted, sometimes entitlement. I can be a voice hog. I know them when I feel them wiggle and stomp them back.

But I'm not "A" narcissist.
I'm not cruel.
I do have empathy and an active conscience.

I think it's good you're asking these questions, hope you'll stay with it...

When I first learned about Nism, and then saw how some of my traits and behaviors could even occasionally fall on that curve, the next feeling I had was terror (a bit like what you're expressing) and the next (over a period of time, this was) a fresh NEW kind of self-loathing. Very painful.

Since that time, the learning and integrating and healing has involved accepting all of those things and going deeper into forgiveness and love for myself and even for the Ns in my life. The serious, full-tilt Ns I would rather not spend time with, but as to a decent human being with Nspots, well that's me, and I'm fairly well stuck with myself.

So I am trying to learn to love, forgive, heal, integrate myself and grow more whole. In fits and starts but in the right direction, I feel it happening.

I would trust that you can do this too. Start with your first question: where did you learn it, whichever N-ish thing you're facing in yourself? Who acted like that?

Hopalong

Title: Re: Message board wounds
Post by: Brigid on February 24, 2006, 08:41:37 AM
Welcome declarlib,

Quote
If it looks like a naracissist, walks like a narcissist, talks like a narcissist ... is it one? Or is it just a victim, awkwardly struggling to recover?

Reading the lists of narcissistic traits and seeing ourselves in those traits and then leaping to the conclusion that.. OH MY GOD... I must be a narc, is a common problem among those of us raised by or in any other way associated with n's.  I sometimes think we should post a disclaimer on the first page of the website saying that if you are here and trying to learn and understand the pain you are having, then you are NOT a narc.

Having some n traits is truly a good thing and where we develop our self-esteem, will to survive, strength to move on despite adversity, and desire to reach our potential.  When we have lived as children with damaging n personalities, some of that is bound to rub off on us and just out of necessity to survive the experience, we develop some of those negative traits.  But if we were truly n's, we would never question the negative impact that could or does have on our lives, or how it affects those around us.  It would never be about anyone but us.

You obviously care about how this is impacting your life.  I guarantee there is hope and help for you to work through this and turn what you view as negative into the positive.  I would recommend that you start your own thread and share your experience so that folks here can comment more directly to your situation.  Only when you are ready--but you won't be ignored and will definitely be supported and find many who have been where you are.

Blessings,

Brigid
Title: Re: Message board wounds
Post by: Marta on February 27, 2006, 11:37:16 PM
Quote
It was a call for special people Marta.  An attempt to rally a group who would be secret.


No..................................................................................................................

It was a call for people who are at a specific stage in their recovery. I see voicemaking process as having two components. In the beginning, it is necessary to confront others in order to find our voice. In the second stage, it is necessary to confront ourselves and our own shortcomings. In the end, my life changed only when I changed myself. This is not to say that the process is clearly divided as such, but this is how it more or less goes, in my opinion of course. Somehow it does not feel safe to me to talk about these things here on this board. Judging from how few stories or delicate moments of epiphany from those who confronted themselves and their own shortcomings I read on this board, I felt that may be there are some others who felt a similar need too. I think there is a wealth of stories and experiences in our lives to be mined and shared there that can help and uplift others.

I often feel that when a discussion gets deeper, it gets riskier, and so it is stopped in the tracks by someone feeling offended or judging what was being said (I myself am guilty of doing of doing both.) It was simply an expression of a craving for sharing at a deeper and more personal level, which I think may be facillitated if there were some simple rules of engagement for those who can accept and abide by them.

I did not grow up in the US nor have I faced issues of exclusion where I grew up. My high school was a nice, homogenous environment where people gravitated towards each other and formed groups, yet we all belonged to one big umbrella.

It did not help to use google jargon like invite and unlisted, clearly associated with exclusivity, to communicate that it would be a safe place where your spouse can't come and read what you write, for that is one big fear for many, certainly myself, in getting more personal in my disclosures.

You are right of course. I should have been a lot more sensitive and responsible in the way I went about it. I am not starting any other forum.

Marta
Title: Re: Message board wounds
Post by: Portia on February 28, 2006, 07:53:50 AM
Sela, thanks for your questions.

Why I felt like that is my stuff, my problem.

Where did that come from?  What past event(s) did the recent stuff remind you of?
Where and when did it start?  And will it ever end?


My feeling threatened comes from all those triggers: feeling ignored, feeling patronised, feeling like I don’t exist other than as a bit-player in someone else’s life, feeling like I’m being told I’m wrong when I open my mouth etc. What past events did it remind me of? Oh living with my ‘parents’, all of them! Where and when did it start….is a good question. Probably before I can remember. I’ve been told stories (other people’s memories) of when I was a baby, being handed over to other people all the time because in effect, no-one wanted me (expect my grandparents who apparently wanted to adopt me). It goes right back, being ignored as a crying baby, being left alone and being very frightened, right up to being told what I felt and thought.

Will it end, the feeling threatened? Maybe. I guess it depends on me learning in each new situation where my feelings come from and that such strong reactions aren’t relevant today. But of course I also need to be aware of being too gullible and vulnerable where it isn’t safe or appropriate. It’s a matter of balance I guess and clearer sight and clearer thinking through those emotional reactions.

And yes, curiosity can overcome fear in so many cases for me; however curiosity can cause injury too. I guess we continue to injure ourselves when we keep falling into that hole in the street, instead of choosing a different street to walk down. I know I’m walking down the same street today, I just hope I’m walking with more caution, although I can still see there’s a hole ahead. Maybe another day I'll choose a different street.
Title: Re: Message board wounds
Post by: pennyplant on February 28, 2006, 09:31:38 AM
Hi Bean,

I agree, we grow by facing difficulties.  And this board is a safe way to do that.  If someone has a different take on what I or someone else has posted, I can read it and maybe feel those stirrings of, I don't know, embarrassment or whatever, but I'm sitting here by myself and I can absorb it and think about it and really decide what my response is, if any.  No pressure to come up with a response to something difficult with the person standing right there.

On the other hand, about that hole on Portia's street, if it's the same street every time, and you know the hole is still there, maybe it's not wise to keep going that same way.  It reminds me of that saying about mental illness--doing the same thing over and over but expecting a different outcome each time.  Sometimes it's just smart to go a different way.  You could always check in every so often and see if the road crews have been by with some pothole filler and blacktop.......

PP
Title: Re: Message board wounds
Post by: Sela on February 28, 2006, 09:49:48 AM
Hi Portia:

That makes so much sense!

Quote
I guess it depends on me learning in each new situation where my feelings come from and that such strong reactions aren’t relevant today. But of course I also need to be aware of being too gullible and vulnerable where it isn’t safe or appropriate.


Wow!  Did you put that into words like a master!!  Thankyou.  Yes, me too.  Very much so.  I still feel like I'm trying to learn all of that.

Hi Marta:
Quote
It was a call for special people Marta.  An attempt to rally a group who would be secret.

No..................................................................................................................

Not secret Marta?  So who's in the group?  (nevermind.......I don't want to know the answer to that.  Really, I don't.  It doesn't matter.  People have a right to pm you and join your group and be secret about it if they wish, after all).

Quote
It was a call for people who are at a specific stage in their recovery. I see voicemaking process as having two components. In the beginning, it is necessary to confront others in order to find our voice. In the second stage, it is necessary to confront ourselves and our own shortcomings. In the end, my life changed only when I changed myself. This is not to say that the process is clearly divided as such, but this is how it more or less goes, in my opinion of course.

That's an interesting opinion.  Shall I ask you now.......what stage do you think I'm in???  Better not.  That would be going in circles.  (I can be a real pain in the butt sometimes.   :mrgreen:  It's a skill I'm honing).  I'm glad you haven't defined my specific stage.

Marta, is everything sort of black and white for you?  I'm serious.  Are people either......a)...or b)?  Is recovery definately stage 1 or 2?   That's basically it?

I notice you did not answer the question I asked you in my previous post about how you felt hit with a rock:
Quote
Would you kindly point out exactly what I wrote in this thread that gave you this feeling?

I asked a lot of questions back there but that one was really relevant to me and I'm sorry I didn't point that out and that you have chosen not to answer it.  I can't change if I don't know what I did wrong.

Here's another similar type statement for which I would sincerely like to see a specific example.  Can you post one for me?  So I can tell exactly what you are talking about by seeing it clearly copied and pasted here... plainly for me to get a better idea of what you mean?

Quote
Judging from how few stories or delicate moments of epiphany from those who confronted themselves and their own shortcomings I read on this board.

Which short stories?
Which delicate moments?
Who said what that you felt "unsafe" to have such epiphany after that?
Who and where please?
Or are you saying there aren't any?
In that case, what is it you want to see...more detail please?
I need specifics to understand.  Maybe I'm dense?  I'm willing to admit I have no idea what you are talking about, about which thread or threads, about which individuals, or which epiphanies, or what you would like to see.  Since you said "few", I'm assuming there are at least some and I would appreciate very much being able to look at those.  Please be specific so I can understand.

Quote
It was simply an expression of a craving for sharing at a deeper and more personal level, which I think may be facillitated if there were some simple rules of engagement for those who can accept and abide by them.

That's an interesting idea.  What rules would you like to see?
How would the rules facilitate deeper, personal expression?
What would happen when people break the rules?
Who would be in charge of enforcing them?

Quote
it does not feel safe to me to talk about these things here on this board.


I understand.  I think you're saying you want to talk about something but you don't feel safe about talking about it here on this board?  So you wanted certain people to form a group with you, so you could do that more comfortably?   I get it.
How can people here help you feel more comfortable?  Is there anything that would help?

Quote
My high school was a nice, homogenous environment where people gravitated towards each other and formed groups, yet we all belonged to one big umbrella.

That sounds very nice.  What a lovely lot of memories you must have from that time in your life eh?  Is that something you long for again.....that same environment, where people are of a similar kind of nature and close knit??  Do you find diversity difficult to navigate?

Quote
You are right of course. I should have been a lot more sensitive and responsible in the way I went about it.

Marta, I'm not trying to be right.  I'm trying to explain how I felt and understand how you felt.  I think I'm getting the idea now, slow as that process is for me.  I'm glad you are thinking about what you think could have been done differently.  And I'm also glad to see that you aren't defining me or my feelings any more.  Thankyou for that.

Hi Bean:
Quote
You can't keep avoiding pain, can you?

Wouldn't that be marvelous?  Not in this world, I think.

Quote
by just being with your fear.

I've been thinking about fear a lot lately.  I keep wondering if it isn't the biggest of all effects of abuse?  I mean, why would anyone tolerate abuse if they weren't afraid?  As children, being afraid seems inevitable when big people are abusing the smaller people and there is no way away from it.  As adults, don't we fear something and that's why we stay?   Does fear keep us cemented to the ground?  Fear of being alone?  Fear of not being tolerant enough?  Fear that what our abusers tell us is true (usually some huge derogatory destructive load of compost)?  Sometimes.......fear for our life??

by just being with our fear..........

accepting it.  feeling it.  letting it do it's job.  all of that.......

For me.....I would stay cemented doing that for long.  To me, fear has the job of alerting me to danger and keeping me still until I can decide what might be better (or horrifying me into submission :shock:.......ooooo!!  I hate that!!).  There's something else that kicks in and helps me look past the fear.  I'm not sure what it is.  Some people will call it courage but I think we all have courage, we just have to use it.  Maybe, it's that idea/belief that reminds me to look past the fear (when I do that)?  And crack the cement...shake off the dust and take a step?  I don't know.  I keep thinking about it. :roll:  I want to perfect the dislodging of fear in myself, I think ( :lol:...does that sound ridiculous?).  I know that's probably impossible, but it's what I think I'd like to aim for.  I absolutely don't like making decisions based on fear.

Quote
to face all the chaos

I like the way you put that Bean.  I think it's a big one too.  Very big for me.

Hi PP:
Quote
doing the same thing over and over but expecting a different outcome each time.  Sometimes it's just smart to go a different way.


Ya.  When will I ever learn?

 :D Sela
Title: Re: Message board wounds
Post by: mum on February 28, 2006, 08:06:21 PM
Hey, Sela. Thought I'd pipe in....regarding FEAR.

I read a book when I decided to change my life called "Fearless Living" by Rhonda Britten. Since then, she has had some TV success (don't watch it) I guess, so who knows if she got hokey.
Anyway, I bought the book because I was tired of being afraid. FEAR ran my life, so I decided to learn about it.
The book is a little too "workbooky" for me (bad student that I am) but the concepts made sense to me... a lot!

In many other places (Buddhist teachings, Ekhart Tolle, gobs of stuff) FEAR is said to be the opposite of LOVE.

And with love, I guess comes faith....and trust, etc.  I do believe when we are aware, we see that we make decisions based on fear or love.  It's that simple....and that hard.
Title: Re: Message board wounds
Post by: moonlight52 on March 01, 2006, 02:28:52 AM
hey  i have read this thread thur .alot of good understanding this has brought to me .i thank you most dearly but i am confused
by something said by the lady marta about two groups so interesting of course and maybe      silly at the same time maybe two groups .i do not want to get too cosmic here .
it is a large subject yin yang .two grougs one group needs conflict with others to grow the wee little newbies .the other more mature ones that grow
from within. is this your experiance marta may i ask? my experiance is like a river flows sometimes i am all Buddist Teachings then
thinka d thinka d think then flows into feelings i then i meditate and  think from  any where but the head you know those sentences that flow thur your head. the Zen masters are after those spaces in be ween the sentences         sort of head to think to feelings back to within  with others if you want to know marta some silly Zen masters think you and i are the same person oh well what do i
know not much i am a newbie thank you i have learned alot
to know i can feel love  and the gift of being in the moment the eternal now     moonlight


ps Bean you are so cool
pss fear or what men call evil is the abence of love
Title: Re: Message board wounds
Post by: Marta on March 01, 2006, 08:57:03 AM
Jac, Your post is so beautiful that it almost made me cry. Fake. With just one word you cut through it all and went straight into the heart of the matter.


Sela,

Quote
That's an interesting opinion.  Shall I ask you now.......what stage do you think I'm in???  Better not.

Oh, but I did (I am ducking now….) you just didn’t notice. I did that when I told you that you didn’t saddle me with more than what I considered to be my due. Thank you for being nice Sela didn’t mean that I am pigeonholing Sela and think she can’t be nasty  (BTW, so can I ….) It meant: you behaved honorably Sela and I am real proud of you. It meant: I need you Sela and I hope that you need me too.

Instead of dissecting my words line by line, if you can listen with your heart, you will sooner or later hear what I am trying to say. In my attempts to reach out, in spite of imperfection of my communication, I’ve offered you a lot, and it was given with a lot of feeling. I’ve given you my acceptance, warmth, acknowledgment that your viewpoint was more valid than mine (not an easy one, I tell ya), salutes to your character, pointing out what I see as your strengths, and my attempts, albeit imperfect, at empathy and understanding. It appears to me that you either overlooked or been dissatisfied with or even rejected some of my offerings, simply because they did not come gift wrapped in the non-definitive language wrapper that you want, because my feelings were not sung at the right pitch of voice. Or may be not, may be I am wrong, may be it is just a matter of time before it all sinks in.

Perfect communication, when it does happen, is a gift, a grace, not our birthright. Or rather, it was my birthright from my mother who did not hear me, who cannot hear me, but if I expect to be granted that right from the rest of the world, I am simply heading towards that big black hole. With the rest of the world, I can only dance the dance, sometimes leading and sometimes being led, making my feeble, imperfect attempts to reach out, for I crave connection with others who have glimpsed into the dark world that I lived through. For me, when someone speaks or hears me in a way that resonates with me, it is like all the notes striking a perfect chord, which moves me so, so deeply that I cry out aloud in joy. When someone slaps me on the face, I push him away and turn away from him to protect myself. When it seems that someone is not quite hearing me right but just may, I carry on the dialogue, provided it is respectful, provided I can accept her imperfections and she can accept mine. But. There is a big in-between zone when I may be throwing a lot of words (or vice versa) and still not connecting, all parties just going in round and round in circles without understanding each other. That is what happened between you and me in the last post, it seems to me, so I didn’t answer your questions. As I was seeking advice from someone on this issue weeks ago in a PM, I am still confused about the correct etiquette of that zone.

But now I agree with you that we are both moving again to a place where we can actually have a dialogue. How about both of us giving this matter some thought and coming back to it in a few days? May be you can look for some answers yourself, I've posted them on this thread. Anyway, I want some time to think before I open my mouth and to recoup my energies. I don’t know about you, but feel real exhausted right now.

Quote
I asked a lot of questions back there but that one was really relevant to me and I'm sorry I didn't point that out and that you have chosen not to answer it.  I can't change if I don't know what I did wrong.

Yes, I had guessed that this question was important to you and it probably (throwing in an anti-definition disclaimer you see) stemmed from your desire to be fair and just to others. I would have PMed you already had you not said “no thanks” to my PMs, my friend. I want to PM not because I have any big bad secret to tell, but because I prefer it that way, it feels more right somehow, and you most certainly and definitively didn’t "abuse" me." Let me know if you are opening your mailbox for me again.... :)

Quote
Not secret Marta?  So who's in the group?  (nevermind.......I don't want to know the answer to that.  Really, I don't.  It doesn't matter.  People have a right to pm you and join your group and be secret about it if they wish, after all).


You were so busy defining my group and typing up your questions that you didn't hear the answers I gave you.... :) May be that is what fear does to you? As I said in my last post, I am not starting a group. I canned the idea.
Title: Re: Message board wounds
Post by: Portia on March 01, 2006, 09:10:53 AM
Marta, hello, how are you?

Portia
Title: Re: Message board wounds
Post by: Sela on March 01, 2006, 09:43:06 AM
Dear Marta:

Good idea.  Let's just give it a rest.

 :D Sela
Title: Re: Message board wounds
Post by: Portia on March 01, 2006, 10:41:49 AM
Marta. Hello again. You said:

Jac, Your post is so beautiful that it almost made me cry. Fake. With just one word you cut through it all and went straight into the heart of the matter.

I’ve just re-read Jacmac’s post above. She uses the word ‘fake’ in her reply to me, thus:

Crazy, repetitive behavior is engaged in over and over again for a REASON.  I think to truly heal we must all discover first that part of us wants to engage in the behavior - that there is something in it for us, whether real or fake.

I don’t know exactly what Jacmac means by ‘fake’ here. But I get the idea that when I repeat crazy behaviour over and over, I must acknowledge that part of me wants to do it, and that I am getting something out of it, whatever that something is (and whether that something is healthy, unhealthy, slightly virus-ridden or whatever).

Marta, I don’t know how you are interpreting Jacmac’s word ‘fake’ above.

What does fake mean to you – who or what is fake?

Are you saying that I am fake?

Are you saying that you are fake?
Title: Re: Message board wounds
Post by: Marta on March 01, 2006, 01:10:29 PM
Shhhhhh. Nobody is fake.

I don't know what Jac meant, but I felt that she was reaching out to me and speaking to me, telling me the story of my life in one word. I ran after so many things in my life that I thought would fill up the hole in my heart but didn't fill me up in the end, when I actually got them. Degrees, approval, money. Fake. Left me insecure and wondering what I needed to do to get my next fix. Next exam to take. Next friend to please. Next. Next. Same old same old. Next. Fix. I need it again. Next. Fix. Love came to me unexpectedly and I almost didn't open up my heart to it, because I thought he was being too "needy" if he called me everyday and wanted to know where I had been, I thought he was cruel and not intentionally making reservations for our holiday if he forgot. I almost gave him up. It was my best friend, the one I recently fought (because she spooked that I had pulled away from my family) and now made up with (we agreed to let each other be), who kept egging me on, urging me to keep going and told me that this was how one loves, these were signs of love, trials and tribs of love. I didn't know. I had never been loved.

Even though it was an unfamiliar territory, even though I was so scared of it for a long time, even though I jumped on my lover like a wounded cat when he tried to tell me that he loved me, love, that was the thing that filled me up. Real. Most real thing I ever experienced in my entire life. That was when I stopped needing a fix. I feel free to be myself, to come and go as I please. When I stopped scratching and biting, as some wise old man said, I realized that the joke had been ultimately on me all along. I am glad that I woke up from that and I wish that my sister would too. I don't know if it would happen, I don't know who or what makes these things happen. I wish I could make this happen for her. I tried for a long time. I am the middle child. Somehow my younger sister learnt how to love and open up to the world, but my elder sister can't love, not even herself. I don't know if it was me or her or the Fates. If there was a magic potion, I would go on a quest and find it for her. But alas, there is none. Each of us must make our own journey and find our sign posts along the way. Or not.

Richard has some nice essays that discuss all this too, in different contexts. Like he said, I kept running after the fake not because I wished to hurt myself or others, but because I didn't know any better.
Title: Re: Message board wounds: TO MUD AND MUM
Post by: reallyME on March 01, 2006, 01:34:57 PM
Hi

All I can say is, be GLAD you can't relate to most of the attitudes and feelings of people on this board.  Apparently you've been allowed to live a rather sheltered life of bliss, acceptance and love.  The point is, if you had ever been the target of an N, you'd fully be able to relate to what these people including that Dr was saying about emotional turmoil and wounds, etc.  I sure can 100%, from being both a victim and a counselor of victims.

So bless you for being spared the grief of it all.

ReallyME
Title: Re: Message board wounds
Post by: Sela on March 01, 2006, 05:32:50 PM
Hi reallyME:

I liked what you wrote too.  Welcome.

Sorry for the experiences that have given you that 100% relating to the emotional turmoil and wounds.
Bless you too.

Sela
Title: Re: Thanks Jac and Sela
Post by: reallyME on March 01, 2006, 10:50:15 PM
Hi again

I had been doing a browse for NPD and came across this lovely message board, and I'm so very glad I did!  The topic of personality disorders has been a sort of "hobby" of mine for a while now, since having my own experiences with people.  My first experience was as a child of age 7.  My step-father was OCD, OCPD and Paranoid-Schizophrenic/Borderline possibly.  It was a very distorted, dysfunctional existence, but I ended up coming out as more of an Activist than someone who stayed debilitated by it.  However, I dealt with Codependency issues and still often have things crop up that I have to deal with.

Currently I'm mentoring a lady who has codep issues as well, through the Melody Beattie book "The Language of Letting Go"

It's been a rewarding journey, watching a 50 yr old lady find freedom as she learns that she doesn't have to be controlled and manipulated by others.  I can't think of anything better to live my life for, than to see people set FREE of these things!

ReallyME
Title: Re: Message board wounds
Post by: Marta on March 02, 2006, 04:29:13 AM
Mum and Pup:

To me, you are both like two guiding lights, Yin and Yang, who bring here possibilities of how things could be. How things are out there. You love yourselves , love your lives, and even have loving husband and wife.  You love all of us too. That is why you both are so very necessary here. Rare lab specimens, if you will.... :)

Don't feel too left out if you can't always understand our pain, although I could swear that you often do. I love you both for being wholesome human beings. Mum, you've fed me chicken soup when my own mum wouldn't, good naturedly nudged me to wipe my tears and pull up my socks, and always been your sweet self. Mud, I think that you are a super duper human being who believes in values and works hard to stand by them. That is really heart warming.

Mum and Mud, Together you make a pack of M&M. Yummmmm.

Marta
Title: Re: Message board wounds
Post by: Portia on March 02, 2006, 09:18:07 AM
Marta, thanks for your reply.

Maybe nobody is fake. I struggle with that sometimes. I trust what’s inside my head more than I trust the stuff I see, hear, smell….okay, that’s inside my head too and I know my eyes really see the world upside down. I can let paranoia run a mile or two occasionally but I do come to my reality with: what’s the objective? If it were true, what would be the point? I’m not that important to anyone, except myself. I like being ordinary and just another person.

I believe you when you say you’d never been loved. Can you love yourself now? I find it difficult. I say this because you said about your elder sister – can’t even love herself. Loving ourselves seems the most difficult thing to me, happening after allowing someone else to love us, allowing ourselves to believe, to trust that someone else does have our interests at heart, isn’t going to use and abuse us. Maybe your elder sister will one day let someone see her, allow herself to feel someone else’s positive intentions. Maybe not. Like you say, each of us on our own journey. I agree.
Title: Re: Message board wounds
Post by: Marta on March 02, 2006, 10:10:53 AM
Quote
I find it difficult. I say this because you said about your elder sister – can’t even love herself. Loving ourselves seems the most difficult thing to me, happening after allowing someone else to love us, allowing ourselves to believe, to trust that someone else does have our interests at heart, isn’t going to use and abuse us.

I totally agree with you Portia. I don't see how we can love ourselves if we have not been loved. THat is the biggest gift my lover gave me. That I was not this piece of trash I thought I was, but someone who danced and sang and made someone else happy. Imagine, me making someone else happy. It really feels like some watershed event in my life--before love/ after love. I could have thrown all that away so easily, because I was so, so scared. I just pounced on him even when he tried to hold me. If it hadn't been for my best friend, who came from another "healthy" world, and taught me to see the difference between love and hate. I just didn't know. It is so difficult to know these things. Her perspective was so important to me, because otherwise I'd have kept falling in the same hole again. It really helps to have some friends from "healthy" world out there, or from some fine rare specimens in here, to get another perspective on life; I do that sometimes.

May be there are some examples from others out there who learnt to love themselve in a different way, other than through finding a lover? Stories from anyone? I think moving towards beautiful and noble things, plants, birds, small children, long walks, may be pulls our life towards the noble and the beautiful in the world.

Quote
I trust what’s inside my head more than I trust the stuff I see, hear, smell

I studied Zen for a short while, which is so strikingly similar in many ways to modern psychology. There I was taught the opposite. The stuff inside my head is not always mine, it is his and hers too. But when I put that away and start smelling the flowers, feeling the rain, tasting the wine, I start loving and living my life. Anyway, I had lots of problems with anxiety, and meditation really helped me with all that. May be Mum has something to add here? 

Quote
I’m not that important to anyone, except myself.

(((((Portia))))) please don't say that......now you are making me cry. You deserve to find someone to whom you mean the world, sooner rather than later........

As for my elder sister, she is married and has two beautiful children whom she loves very much, and who love her back. But still she never learnt to love herself. I don't know why. Sometimes I think that she just never opened up to the world. Just to that tape recorder in her head that keeps playing and playing over and over again.
Title: Re: Message board wounds
Post by: Portia on March 02, 2006, 10:48:51 AM
Marta, you’ve helped me, thank you.

The stuff inside my head is not always mine, it is his and hers too. But when I put that away and start smelling the flowers, feeling the rain, tasting the wine, I start loving and living my life.

I understand I think and I’m glad you love and live! You paint a clear, good picture. It’s a gift to read you.

You deserve to find someone to whom you mean the world
Thanks for this, it’s very kind. I think you’re special ((((Marta))))
Title: Re: Message board wounds
Post by: Marta on March 03, 2006, 12:17:14 AM
(((Portia))), thank you for sharing your feelings with me; I am moved and honored. You've given me something too -- it is never ever ever a one way street you see.

Marta
Title: Re: Message board wounds
Post by: Marta on March 03, 2006, 12:33:13 AM
Quote
Mum:
And with love, I guess comes faith....and trust, etc.


I was just thinking about this statement in relationship to my own life. For most of my life, I had loved and trusted and believed in good faith of others. That of course was my biggest mistake, since the ones I trusted filled me up with their toxins. There is a time to learn to distrust, and then again there is a time to learn to trust again, in a different way. That is why language can be so frustrating, because one sentence can mean so many different things to different people. I don't know when or how that watershed moment comes.

For me, it was a friend like you, who pointed out that I was ready to trust my own judgment, who put me in touch with my own strengths. My legacy from my family did not just consist of serving as a dumpground for their toxins; it also meant being being derided for my strengths.

Title: Re: Footnote: Message board wounds
Post by: BJ on March 03, 2006, 06:51:34 AM
Foot note:
Keep in-step, while in tow,
in order to heal the soul.

BJ
 
 
Title: Re: Message board wounds
Post by: Marta on March 08, 2006, 03:27:48 AM
Portia,

This time around I do owe you a true apology and a deeper answer.

I cringe at my response to you last week. It was colored with my own frustration – at myself, my own discarded parts; at you, for all that was said over the past one month.

Now that my frustration, at least that I felt at you, have evaporated, I can write a different answer.

Fake. I don’t think people are fake (except for Ns etc.?), however we all say and do things at times when we don’t mean them. I don’t know how to elicit truth from someone else except by offering my own. I don’t know if it is necessary or even advisable to always elicit truth from everyone. Also, when someone speaks truth it is only his or her truth, not the absolute. Sometimes the timing may be wrong. I think issue of trust is really important when we are speaking of truth.

I am comfortable in my skin today in that no one can invade me any longer, but I also want more. I often feel an undercurrent sadness, because I really do feel a big hole in my heart where there is no family, no roots. I don’t know how to fill that hole. Then there is my past. I have a really complex relationship with my past, especially with discarded parts of myself. I see them as disembodied ghosts that sometimes show up my way when I see someone who is haunted by the same ghosts (truly, or just in my own imagination). As a rule, I keep my distance and avoid all contact. But. When someone singles me out and asks me a question, asks me to hold a mirror and tell the truth, then I don’t always know whether to say hello or run away. What I reflect back is colored by who I am, my own past, my own relationship to my past, my own pain, my own choices, it may have nothing at all to do with anyone else. I wouldn’t know. I can’t know. If anything from that resonates deeply, ask yourself why. If not, please just toss it all away. I am sorry.

Marta
Title: Re: Message board wounds
Post by: Hopalong on March 08, 2006, 07:09:48 AM
Hi Marta,
I'll comment on your reply to Portia. And briefly, looking farther back too.

I am glad you are being loved. Now. In the real world, by a lover you can trust and who held you tightly yet safely when your fear made you see their desire to be close to you as dangerous. I'm so glad this has happened to you.

Just now I was thinking about the persistent pain you carry. Some dealt to you by your mother and perhaps other early things, some from your own choices since...(and I assume you were making the best choices you knew how to make at the time you made them).

I was just wishing there might be a way, just a small way, for you to have more moments of opening to pure compassion for yourself. Sometimes I think when that happens, even for a few seconds, it softens us. Not in the way of dangerous vulnerability, but in the generous way of letting ourselves be as deserving of ordinary love and self-regard as anyone else. Just...trying that on.

I think the person whose love and forgiveness you deserve most is you. I am wishing you moments of that deep kindness, and then more and more...until it becomes a steady state, an undercurrent to your days that gradually replaces the sadness. I cannot think of any conceivable reason why you do not richly deserve this.

Hope you have a good day.

Hopalong

Title: Re: Message board wounds
Post by: BJ on March 08, 2006, 07:38:04 AM
Beautiful, Hopalong!

Portia,
Quote
I have a really complex relationship with my past, especially with discarded parts of myself. I see them as disembodied ghosts that sometimes show up my way when I see someone who is haunted by the same ghosts (truly, or just in my own imagination).
Quote
I am comfortable in my skin today in that no one can invade me any longer, but I also want more
If so, "the ghost is clear".
BJ
Title: Re: Message board wounds
Post by: Portia on March 08, 2006, 08:20:19 AM
Marta, I have a long reply written. Thoughts on interactions and mirrors. Questions, as usual.

Now I feel a whole load of stuff. Confusion.

Reading you Hops and BJ, I’m not sure who you’re writing to, Marta or me or both, or are we similar. A kindness that replaces the sadness. I wrote:

Is that hole in your heart sadness? Can we ever replace certain types of sadness? We can’t remake our histories (perhaps we can if we go mad); perhaps we have to learn to live with that sadness. Maybe the hole in your heart is similar to the little stone in my heart? I have a little stone of sadness which I expect to carry with me for as long as I live. To me it is more of a solid thing; a physical feeling of my past. It helps me to appreciate new things better and it also reminds me of when I’m clinging on to the past. When the stone hurts more, I know I’m back in my past and need to get into the present once more.

How to be kind to yourself.

when I see someone who is haunted by the same ghosts

I am?

no one can invade me any longer, but I also want more

I want more too. But can it be found in other people? I feel I have to find it all in me.

I don’t understand.

I’m back there. Everyone understands except me.

And that is a possibility! It's disorienting.
Title: Re: Message board wounds
Post by: Hopalong on March 08, 2006, 07:46:46 PM
Hi Miz Portia,
I don't thinnk everyone understands except you. You are hugely insightful and maybe you're right that your sadness is permanent. I just don't want it to be.

I don't know if we create beliefs to cushion ourselves from a bleaker reality or not. But I do know I need the belief that people can be relieved of enduring sadness by compassion...from others in, and from themselves in further.

But that's a belief, it's not a fact. It's just what I add up. I have been lucky, a lot, and I inherited my Dad's essentially optimistic nature. Depression's my exception, not my rule. I can be swamped in deep pain. But it does go away at times. I get happy.

I remember a T asking me so often I thought she was nuts: What does this do for you? What do you get out of this (persistent belief, repetitive thought, repeated pattern of on-the-surface self-destructive behavior). Took me a very long time to understand she was not criticizing me, just asking me to try to get access to the logic of my emotions.

Along those lines, you've suggested why you keep the stone. As a benchmark. Perhaps it's an anchor. If you didn't have it...then, that's the question.

I only wish you didn't have it because I don't like people to be unhappy. A pretty simpleminded thing. But it has led to some healing...some challenging of my own attachment to my pain.

Doesn't mean that's how it works for you though. Hope I didn't add confusion...

Hops
Title: Re: Message board wounds
Post by: Marta on March 09, 2006, 02:01:10 AM
Portia,

I don't know. I believe that we must find our own answers. This is entirely my opinion, based on how I live my life, suitable to my personality. I am sure that there are other ways to get to truth that are equally valid and wholesome; different strokes for different folks. As for me. If something resonates, then think about it. Resonance is the sure fire thumbtack for me. If it resonates, I think about it. If it doesn't, then I throw it away. SOmetimes "stuff" comes even from the best meaning folks, for such is human nature. We all have our issues and our limitations. Become who you are, not what someone else is or wants you to be. I believe that the only way we can find our own path in our life is to think for myself, examine myself and my behavior and decide which comes from my conditioning, which feels to be mine.

You are so right about finding more -- some find it in their children, others find it in art, yet some others in locking themselves up in a forest hut, my neighbor is not a people person or a family man but cares passionately about science and humanity at large. It would be disastrous for my neighbor to be a school teacher or an artist. How to find my own path in life? I think, for that, sometimes one can also dive underneath the surface, know one's own strengths and weaknesses, come up with another viewpoint to understand the same situation and see if it makes sense, or dialogue with Alice Miller rather than Marta, who is not only haunted by her own numerous ghosts, but has a tendency to attact ghosts from others too. Last thang we need is another ghost party, me sez. I think you understand everything. My friend the diamond miner once described his exploration process to me, it was fascinating, (he taps on the earth with special equipment to see where he can find diamonds, he has now developed a nose for hte process, gives up if initial exploration is taking him in a wrong direction, sometimes takes risks); could this also be another way to have a dialogue, albeit with one's own self? Was it not you who said somewhere that empathy is like a twitch, that sometimes it can be silently experienced but not outwardly expressed? Rendering unsolicited advice however is a choice. :P

Take care.

Marta
Yes, that hole in my heart is sadness. :(
Title: Re: Message board wounds
Post by: Portia on March 09, 2006, 05:57:51 AM
((((((Hopalong)))))) thank you, for not wanting my sadness to stay with me. I understand!!!!!!!  :D Yes I do. It’s a long time coming but I do. I really do.

What does this do for you? What do you get out of this

I get….the belief that…I am destined to be unhappy. I get the belief that: I can hurt others (by wanting what I want, being what I am).

Big huge STUFF! :D

Thanks Hops. So softly done too. As ever.

What does the idea of the stone do? Accepting the sadness yes, but heck….does it have to remind me that I’m flawed? Yep. That’s the nub eh? I’ve been thinking some. Much less confusion, much brighter ideas, thank you.

Another idea: I used to say I was optimistic. Yeah, I called myself optimistic. What did I mean? I meant I think: I’m optimistic because I keep surviving in spite of everything. In other words, I feel loads of pain but I won’t give up. I’ll fight and strive and …… not feel. Must keep those feelings at bay!

I wasn’t optimistic. It was another label I attached to myself. Coping non-coping mechanisms as a friend said once. NOW I can be optimistic! :D

*sigh* why can’t we invent a drug that opens up the brain to new ideas faster? Instead of drugs that delay or dampen or mask or…hmmm. I’m being somewhat absolute there. So I’ll say: I don’t know what I’m talking about. Nothing new there then :D
Title: Re: Message board wounds
Post by: Portia on March 09, 2006, 06:04:48 AM
Hi Marta. Interesting posts, thank you. I do get a lot from what you write. I agree with much of how I interpret it! I like your diamond miner friend, sounds a little like water divining to me. There is much we don’t know about in how we interact with each other, with objects, with – well, ‘dark matter’ for example. Dark matter is most of us and we don’t know what it is! (Apparently.)

Alice Miller, interesting. I find her work hugely instructive and interesting. I know she has stopped other people from quoting her work because it’s been misinterpreted so much (or in my opinion badly interpreted or just plain stolen and warped over the years). I had a breakthrough in understanding why I couldn’t get into the John Bradshaw books. I had an intense physical (ophthalmic) reaction to reading Homecoming, a rejection of his ideas that he seems to force on the reader (“you MUST do the exercises” he says – oh yeah? - says my brain). John Bradshaw – lots of informative, helpful ideas in his work but: he made his ideas into guru stuff. He also insists on higher power work which I right now, violently (!) disagree with. It no doubt works for many people, but it doesn’t work for me. I won’t hand over control of my brain to anything higher.

And it all comes from Alice Miller’s original ideas but has been picked up and used and abused in my opinion. I’m interested in Alice herself now. I’ve read about five maybe of her books, looked at her website. I need to read her books again but right now, I feel there is a coldness and lack of personality in her work. They are her ideas, but I find little of her in her books. It’s probably on purpose? I’d like to know more about Alice herself but I doubt she’d let us know. I feel she’s very reserved. And I think she has good reason to be. I don’t know; all I can say is, it feels sad to me. Of course I know zero about her the person. But I wonder if anyone knows her well?

I do this. I set up heroes for myself and then take a good close look at them. I don’t like agreeing with everything someone says. Makes me wonder if I’ve given up my brain you know? So I stop thinking about the work, the output, and I look at the person’s motivations for their work. Fascinating. I feel sad for Alice Miller. And I’d like to know why I feel sad, but, that’s kind of her business and not mine.

Yep. Joseph K in ‘The Trial’ tries to find out what his crime is. He is accused but doesn’t know what he has done wrong (that was me).

In ‘The Castle’ K worries about when he will be finally accepted as a legitimate member of the community. I hope that’s not you? You are here, you are accepted.

(((((Marta)))))