Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: write on February 17, 2006, 08:56:08 PM
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I think I told you about my friend who turned on me because I said something negative about America, and I felt that the friendship could only be superficial on my part if I cannot speak my mind and she can not see beyond her over-sensitised patriotism....we have maintained the friendship on that level.
I also told you about the friend who is marrying the guy who gave me the whacking slap in the face email a while back, she accepts I am not going to their wedding and when we met recently I was attentive and supportive and made no negative comments about him or the marriage; it is an area I think people have to work out for themselves, their love life.
But now my closest friend ( the one with the big family I have grown very attached to ) has made a series of bad financial decisions and is about to lose her home.
She got her tax refund today and probably has about enough to go get a place and I really would like her to go look at an apartment or something before they have to move. She has I guess had emotions around this, and issues with her husband, and I feel like I've been pushing her to be more practical for a while.
Today I took over boxes for packing up the house and she was shampooing carpets!
Then tonight one of her daughters- who is early 20s and living independently- asked again could mom help fund a new laptop computer and my friend didn't say no/explain the situation.
I can't believe she will use what spare money is left on this- I know it's plain denial, and she says it's her duty to help her kids.
But she has 6 kids still at home, and a laptop is hardly an essential.
I have helped them all I can financially- they have helped me other ways, but in my world even with the bipolar and npd craziness we manage our lives, pay our bills and have some security.
I can back off and let them get on with it, but she often asks what I think or what my advice is.
Do I tell her?
Or is it like in the previous two friendship situations it's pointless being totally honest.
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I'm sorry your friend is in financial trouble, Write. And sorry that the "why" of it all is obvious to you, but not her.
I have a sister who is the kindest and most generous person in the world. She is in horrible debt because she lives beyond her means, her husband does not work nearly as much as she does (she teaches full time and tutors at night, he teaches two college courses, that's all). Her grown children are very dependent upon her for financial help....she is still paying their college bills. She just bought a brand new car and another expensive used one, and she has taken some expensive vacations to see her children and to fly them to see her.
I love her dearly, and I understand her struggle, as I have dealt with debt before (and am again, after much legal trouble).
The difference, perhaps, is that I still have a balance of equity in my property, and she currently has none.
BUT, as much as I may see how she puts everything, her children's expectations, appearances, her husband's laziness, before her own needs and practicality, it is ultimately NONE OF MY BUSINESS. She is a grown up, and I will sympathize when she calls in concern about it, etc., but I see that I will not help her one bit to focus on what she already knows. Instead I say, " I know it's tough. But you are smart and you will figure this out." If her own debt is the nasty by product of great generosity, then who am I to be her judge?
But I noticed you said your friend asks you for advice. Wow. I don't know too many people who do that on something like this. If my sister asked me, I would still stay out of it, and make suggestions that are positive (like is you h having success on the job hunt, etc?) I would also say something to the effect of the above: It's thier life, their business, and put the responsibility back on them: " what I think doesn't matter, really. It's what you think that matters. WHAT DO YOU THINK?" I think that is the problem: they are not really thinking about it...just reacting out of habit. So I won't let them off the hook by getting me to have an opinion on something I shouldn't be involved in.
I understand some people may feel it is a diservice to not tell people things that they may be doing that hurt themselves....but I don't feel comfortable doing that. It's their path, their lives. They own it. For example, I doubt telling my other sister that I thought her teenager was headed for substance abuse and worse, would have changed the course of her daughter's path at all. She was in serious denial, and not a whole lot would get through anyway. And I have NO idea how it is to have such a fragile child....so I cannot be her adviser, just her loving sister.
Her daughter is now in recovery (again) in her mid twenties. I know it would have been unwelcome "advice" and not taken well at all... I know people tried to advise, but things just had to follow the course they did.
Plus, I have enough of my own issues and trouble to ever spend time telling someone else where they are screwing up. It's not my place to become attached to their pain....
Thus, I leave it in my in debt sister's hands, maintain her dignity, and although I am not telling her what I see, she sees it. She is not dumb and I have heard her defend it...as her right, and she is correct. It's her decision. There are certain family members she will not discuss it with, and I don't blame her. Heck, it's probably way worse than I even know. But who the hell am I to tell her she is wrong to live her way? She is not causing harm, really, except some financial headaches for herself.
So until I become an expert at financial planning (hahaha) and get paid, for my opinion, I will keep it to myself.
I sort of have this policy of not giving unsolicited advice. I think it can be boundary violating, as I know I feel that way when it's given to me.....
In a way, it's like my kids. I am entrusted to teach them, tell them things, but at a certain point, and with certain things, they OWN their path. If my son doesn't do his homework, he will get bad grades and not get into college. It is a logical sequence of natural circumstances and he owns it. But I am his mother, and part of parenting is to help them see that sequence, support the best choices, but I CAN'T DO HIS HOMEWORK FOR HIM (nor would he want me to, I suck at math! :lol:)
Luckily, he has been accepted already to his choice of college...whew! But he still has to pass high school (but I digress).
The point is, even PARENTS can't DO life for their kids, and friends cannot do the thinking for friends.
SOOOOO, now the disclaimer. I hope I haven't given advice that was not solicited. I thought it was, and am simply giving my experience as an example of how I have dealt with a similar loved one.
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Mum,
Thanks for this reminder:
I sort of have this policy of not giving unsolicited advice. I think it can be boundary violating, as I know I feel that way when it's given to me.....
I think I sometimes get all caught up in thinking I'm perceptive. Sometimes I might be. But other times I'm not.
It does take real discipline to know the difference between a comment or a gentle question and pushy advice.
I think your sisters are very lucky to have you in their lives.
I've always yearned for a sister.
Hops
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Hops, I am very fortunate. I have five sisiters and three brothers and they are all unique, wonderful human beings. I am blessed. Anyway, you can borrow a sister at any time (we are all very friendly....I can't wait to live closer again....) I'm sure they would welcome any friend of mine!!!
I don't know if it's wisdom or just plain being afraid to insult someone....(this thing about not giving advice when not asked).
Sometimes I think it is fear driven, and yet, when it matters, it isn't a matter of "advice", it's simply doing what I need to, I guess.
Relationships in general are so hard (and that's why if it clicks, it's so rewarding).
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Hi, Bean.
I'm open to being wrong here, I kinda hope I am in fact, since it sounds so depressing what I've written--so anyone can jump in and disect this, I don't mind--
Why does anyone need to be right or wrong about this? I might be totally 'wrong" in someone else's eyes, but what does that matter? How important is being judged "right" by someone else? Not much. Does that make me N? I don't think so, because I also don't care if someone else thinks they are right and I am wrong, as long as it does not truly "hurt" me or my loved ones and I come from a place of universal love and harmless intention with my actions. "HURT" is also subjective, but I believe how much we care about something and choose to hurt about it is up to each of us.
I am learning to value my own thoughts and takes on things.
Everyone has an opinion, and no opinion is more or less valuable than any others. It's just opinion.
I also see it as not depressing (but I get what you are saying...) but rather freeing. Our own opinion matters, and if we are not close with others because trying to share it or disseminate it is draining, then we don't have to do it, if we don't want to.
It's okay as it is. Letting it be, letting it sit, being still when we think we know better for someone else....not reacting or jumping in to "fix" and save...allowing others to have their path and their learning....all as valuable as any other decision, I think.
But I appreciate what you wrote, because I think you got to the heart of things for me. Although there are some people who I would share my innermost thoughts with....on various topics, that varies, ultimately, I am not sure I would get much "bang for my buck" time wise, energy wise, if I were to be "honest" with some or most people in a way that challenges them to think like me, or adopt my opinion, or even think about my opinion on them or what they are doing.
If I do anything useful, I think it would be to ask them to think for themselves. It is just my comfort level. I would not want that kind of "closeness" with most people. My husband and I have that, but he is the only one, really. And do I practice what I preach? Well, I try...(ask him after I have a fit about something rather insignificant). HE will forgive, forget, trusts me as himself and visa versa, so I can act out different approaches to things with him. and yet, I still have to be careful, because I care for him sooo much, that I have to give him the same space and respect I give those I am not as comfortable with. It's why marriages are both difficult and rewarding.
My siblings are some of my favorite people, but just because we are blood relatives, does not necessarily mean we have an unbreakable bond.
I guess it's up to everyone to determine for themselves. If my friends need someone more forceful or critical to "tell it like it is" when giving their opinion, well I am sure they can find someone else to fit that need. It will probably not be me. I will speak my truth to them, but I do not know theirs.
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Hiya Write, so....what do you think? (thanks Mum, I like that)
Hiya Jacmac, warning! Uninvited comments coming up. I'm curious about your superficial friend :( (vs. superficial friendship, sorry):
She went on happily to tell me how abusive boyfriend bought her a pair of boots and a card, in which he wrote " I love you". There was a pregnant pause at the end of the announcment, and I know she wanted me to comment.
I thought, Wow, she really wants me to pretend with her that this relationship is healthy and okay.
I cannot do that.
I wanted to ask....lots...like: was she showing off? Does she want your approval of her 'happiness'? Is she trying to make you envious?? I mean....what does she want there? I would tend to say er...nothing? wait to see what she said next? Okay that would be a bit tough. Maybe "uh-huh, that's nice, so how is x (totally unrelated subject)'. This is child-like stuff imo. Narcissistic too. She didn't call to ask about you I bet. What do you think? (I like that question a lot :D)
gotta scoot again....H wants the PC again...anyone got one going cheap? I need another... P
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Hey all,
I think that if someone directly asks for advice, then you've got a green light to offer it if you want to...
Maybe a good idea to say first: well I can offer you what I would want to do in your situation, but only you can decide whether this would be right for you. And if I offer advice, I'm not expecting you to take it. There may be other factors that make it the wrong choice for you.
(I know that's a lot of preamble, but it might reduce the strain on a friendship if the advice is not followed, or if it is followed and backfires in some way...)
And sometimes friends do give good advice and people take it and it helps.
Hops
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i agree with hops on this one.
if your freind asks for advice, ask her if shes prepared for what you may have to say. a good freind is one that asks for advice and trusts you to be honest. if they cant take what you have to say, then the freindship is not worth a dime.
i had a freind similar to yours once, she would ask me for advice, i would just go along with her and she knew it. it was like she needed confirmation from me the whole time and she knew i would always stick up for her. i think it was lowself esteem on her part. after 20yrs i finaly stood upto her and told her what i really thought, and gave her more advice than she bargained for, and guess what??? she told me to go to hell.
20 yrs of "freindship" gone, but i dont see it like that now, it was 20 yrs of me being a faithful lap dog but when i told her something she didnt want to hear that was it in a flash all gone. but deep down i always knew it would be like that if i was honest and told her what i really thought.
she was never a freind in the first place i always knew that, but felt like i needed her as much as she needed me at the time, how wrong was i!
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Well thanks for all the suggestions, she came over for a few drinks last night and I was rather more outspoken than I meant to be ( ie. a bit drunk :shock: )
I didn't criticise but I did tell her I am concerned that she is in denial about the situation and not making any plans.
She is one of my closest friends and has seen me through my worst illness and stood by me through all that crazy time- which many friends I had known for years didn't- and I certainly would not see her homeless, which she knows. But also I do not want her default decision to be just come live here with no concrete plans. Our families are pretty close so I wouldn't have a problem if she wanted to come for a few weeks whilst getting more money together etc. But I guess what was underpinning my concerns is that I have seen each financial problem met passively, until it builds into a greater one, and I am not like that at all. And as my ex pointed out this week: if we're helping her and she still wastes money then she's wasting our money...
( It's quite funny my subconscious response to my friend's situation, I have actually spent less on just about everything in recent months, budgeted more carefully and put more money into savings!
I have always religiously paid my bills as they come in; thank goodness, because it's one good habit stayed with me when I was really sick and it can be a terrible problem for bipolar people, debt incurred during manic episodes )
Entirely unsolicited advice is probably a bad idea- though frankly I have found many people play that ( Eric Berne ) 'game' of yes, but... by telling you all their problems then coming up with an objection to every solution you suggest. I won't do those conversations any more, my father was a master at this and frustrated me so much!
I think by posting an issue on a message board it is taken as understood you are welcoming comments and advice from others, and I don't get too upset any more if I don't hear what I wanted to hear!
That was therapy- I am so much stronger for it, if someone says something I don't like I can ignore it.
More often than not now I listen to my inner voice, and part of that is why is that bothering me so much...
If something offends or upsets me and it's not someone acting out or being mean, I know it's something unresolved in me.
Thanks y'all.
One of the things which is solidifying in my mind after thinking about all this is that friendships are on different levels and at different times.
I have always had a problem letting go of relationships, even bad ones, but as I get older I am seeing that even the most solid relationships can melt away as people change or grow.
When I was most sick I saw friends turn against me who I always thought we would be friends for life. I wasn't the person they expected me to be.
Even your success can ruin a friendship if the other person is jealous.
I think my friend will be ok about my telling her what she probably doesn't want to hear and in my opinion needs to- in some ways I wish I had been more forceful a year or two ago when her situation started to get out of control.
Even though I got angry at the time, there have been times my friends have insisted I go to the doctor when I was sick and didn't see it.
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Hey Write,
I think you are an amazing friend.
I also really admire your practicality...your budgetary sense.
That is a huge accomplishment in this culture when even people "without problems" can't contol money. I love to think of your thrift and good sense.
(You've inspired a thread.)
Hops
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write - one thing I was worried about was the idea that friends can live together--especially friends with families and kids. In my experience it's just not possible to do this and remain friends. I have seen this happen many times. I think it's because you become too close to the other's problems, in effect, they become your own?
I think this is what I am working out, because close as we all are I don't do that any more- take responsibility for other people.
I also think in my heart of hearts that unless someone takes their financial responsibilities seriously they will have problems over and over again, all their life maybe; it just isn't optional is it, paying your bills...
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I just found out this morning that my boyfriend told me a lie when it would have been just as easy to tell me the truth. It was over something as mundane as e-mail accounts. I've sent him an e-mail explaining that if a boyfriend-girlfriend can't discuss little things like this openly and honestly, then what is our relationship based on? I don't like being lied to about anything. My Nmom lived her whole life telling one lie after another, destroying family ties in the process and has other family members convinced that I am nothing more than a mentally-retarded whore. On the one hand, I know what I am experiencing is transference/countertransference and at the same time I am PISSED about being lied to, about anything, by my boyfriend. It makes me wonder what else he has lied about?
Bones
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My sympathies, Bones.
Trust is a precious precious thing, and can be very fragile.
My exN2 was a pathological liar and, when found out, he always looked bewildered by what damage it had done, in my view. He just never "got it"...how honesty is everything.
(Don't get me going on the imperfection in everyone that normally produces SOME kind of lies.)
But a basic engagement with the world with an honest gaze and open heart goes a long way.
You deserve that, Bones.
I think sometimes people act furtive and sneaky when they feel invaded, others just either don't know or don't care about the effects of lying. To my ex, it was as natural as breathing. I've had several bfs in my life who lied a lot, gratuitously.
I think it was my overactive imagination...men who "spun stories" were compelling to me. Once.
Hops
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My sympathies, Bones.
Trust is a precious precious thing, and can be very fragile.
My exN2 was a pathological liar and, when found out, he always looked bewildered by what damage it had done, in my view. He just never "got it"...how honesty is everything.
(Don't get me going on the imperfection in everyone that normally produces SOME kind of lies.)
But a basic engagement with the world with an honest gaze and open heart goes a long way.
You deserve that, Bones.
I think sometimes people act furtive and sneaky when they feel invaded, others just either don't know or don't care about the effects of lying. To my ex, it was as natural as breathing. I've had several bfs in my life who lied a lot, gratuitously.
I think it was my overactive imagination...men who "spun stories" were compelling to me. Once.
Hops
I don't think he "gets" a lot of things. I often get that "deer in the headlights" look when I have to explain the obvious to him.
Bones
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BTW, is it just me or am I really noticing some strange messages, with HTML coding, that seem to be promoting the sale of stuff? :shock:
Bones
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Yeah, we seem to be in spam mode lately. It can be reported to moderator (bottom right had corner of message0. They are usually deleted within a day or two.
PP
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I just found out this morning that my boyfriend told me a lie when it would have been just as easy to tell me the truth. It was over something as mundane as e-mail accounts. I've sent him an e-mail explaining that if a boyfriend-girlfriend can't discuss little things like this openly and honestly, then what is our relationship based on? I don't like being lied to about anything. My Nmom lived her whole life telling one lie after another, destroying family ties in the process and has other family members convinced that I am nothing more than a mentally-retarded whore. On the one hand, I know what I am experiencing is transference/countertransference and at the same time I am PISSED about being lied to, about anything, by my boyfriend. It makes me wonder what else he has lied about?
Bones
Are there alcoholics or substance abusers in his FOO, Bones? Adult Children of Alcoholics often lie when it's just as easy to tell the truth - partly because they grew up having to lie about almost anything to avoid the alcoholic's hair trigger temper, and partly because non-recovering alcoholics lie about everything. all. the. time. ... if that's what he saw all around him growing up, it's what he'll do. Which is another reason why ACOAs lie...
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I don't know how this got pulled up again but yes I agree lying- especially pointless lying is common in both NPD and alcoholism.
One of my friends I believe has a secret alcohol problem, the only signs apart from the empty bottles are the pointless lies she keeps telling, sometimes she looks at me almost challengingly as though she wants me to pull her up but I haven't...to be honest I don't think I've seen her properly sober for a while.
The friend I originally wrote this thread about and I barely communicate now. Her husband came over for drinks and brought a present on Christmas Day, but she just never calls or pops in and I've decided to leave it at that. If a friendship is totally one-sided for any length of time I start to feel that old rejection/ not good enough thing. I have no idea what happened, but when we stopped helping financially I don't think she has called me since so maybe that says something....
Or maybe I'm just touchy.
Anyway, I have enough balanced friendships now; and I learned something new recently too- I can do less intense friendships and have them be satisfying on the level they are at, so long as I have a few people I can share myself totally with.
I often get that "deer in the headlights" look when I have to explain the obvious to him.
men who "spun stories" were compelling to me. Once.
Interesting how what once was cute...isn't any more!
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The friend I originally wrote this thread about and I barely communicate now. ... I have no idea what happened, but when we stopped helping financially I don't think she has called me since so maybe that says something....
Or maybe I'm just touchy.
Ah, you stopped paying the membership fee!
I'm sorry, Write. It's always a jolt to find out that someone basically thinks of you as their auxiliary wallet.
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It's always a jolt to find out that someone basically thinks of you as their auxiliary wallet.
Thanks S, it's okay, it was a salutory reminder for me- there's a big difference between helping someone in a crisis say once or twice or taking responsibility and getting overinvolved.
Lesson learned and understood!!!!
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Hey all,
Haven't posted in awhile but I check in time to time. This post really hit a nerve with me.
I have just ended a friendship with a best friend for 12 years. She had been through all friendships she ever has had. I had remained the last true friend. I accepted her for what she was and what she would give and knew it was not much. She only would give when it came to her needs, her voice, and her problems. Yet I still tried to find the good in her. She used all her friends and then threw them away like they were dirt when they were no longer needed and used up she found new ones to suit her needs. When the new ones were not good enough she tried to rekindle the old friendships again.
She had some real problems in life that we all have but she drives on DRAMA and puts her children through it. She had used her own children in her drama. She was mean, emotional abusive and uses her children by proxy to con when people are on to her con game. As a matter of fact the only emotion I have ever seen was for her. She plays everyone mostly men with the poor single mom syndrome. She claims she needs things for her children (which she does) but fails to tell them that she already used her money up on herself and then dips into to money that is given for her children. She'll buy all kinds of products that is not necessary when you don't have a job or money for herself and let her kid go with a jacket that don't fit and the zipper is broken. I have given her clothing for her daughter that she clearly needed and asked for. Her daughter is at the age where she wants the trendy clothing and we had it to give from my daughter. Her daughter was so excited her face was beaming. The next day her mom walked in with the clothing on that we had given for her child.
When they go to their dads and they refer to his g/f by name she corrects them by saying you mean ugly. She's ugly isn't she? I could go on and on and on.
Anyway, I had a really big blow out with her. I couldn't take it anymore and ended my friendship with her. I have nothing to say. It is her life and she can conduct it in any manner she wishes but I do feel sorry for her kids but I have to let it go. I really do not like her and I stopped making excuses for her behavior to myself. She is no friend she never was she will never be one to anybody. I do feel really bad about her children though and will miss them. She has some great adorable kids who are being brainwashed.
She is attacking me now through mutual friends.
I have always been open and honest with her. I truly believe that is what real friends do.
She was destroying her life and her kids. I thought maybe it was because of her breakup with her husband she went a little off the deep end but I have now taken off my rose colored glasses and she her for what she is and don't like her at all. I drew the final straw when she emotionally abused her children. She is not someone I want in my life.
I hope she gets help for her kid's sake.
Sorry for the rant,
Deb
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((((((((((Deb))))))))))
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When they go to their dads and they refer to his g/f by name she corrects them by saying you mean ugly. She's ugly isn't she?
yes she is. Why can't people see this is child abuse, teaching children such ways which will give them a difficult life...
Not surprised you've had enough.
******
I have talked about sabotage before from people close to you, well you know I just lost weight, toned up a fair bit; I met a friend who hasn't seen me for a while, she didn't mention my appearance except to say at one point in the conversation 'are you 50 yet!'
Hmmm, coincidentally she's gained weight since I saw her....
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It takes a level of maturity to put your own feeligns on side I think and be pleased for someone else, but I have often wondered for a people-pleaser like me if it isn't one of the resons it's taken me a long time to be really out there and successful- I still find it hard to handle people's mean comments or jealousy.
I remember when I was really sick one of my dotors commented on a friend who turned up out of the blue and was very kind, she said watch out for the people who want to be around you at your worst, I thought how negative...but she was right. I now have a small collection of friends who would be much happier to sit around moaning and commiserating than to rejoice in any successes with!
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I've had a little break from a close friend I usually talk to every day, because she's been very involved in a legal matter that took all her energy and time. I missed her, but perhaps because she wasn't filling that space, I began to pay more attention to other people. That's been rewarding.
Now that she's free again and we're talking more often, I'm realizing that in some ways I was happy to not be quite as in touch. She has a negative, dramatic take on so many things in her life that I have to keep an eye on where I go with her. Sometimes I feel as though she "stirs for pain" because that is what feels most familiar to her.
I understand it. At the same time...I am enjoying being happy.
I am not planning anything, just observing some different feelings. I love her and care about her, but am thinking of letting our friendship take a new, perhaps less intense shape. (I am pretty sure she has some jealousy feelings, but I don't react much, and it seems tolerable.)
Just random thoughts.
Hops
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Leah, I'm so sorry.
OW.
She didn't want to share it with you.
I don't know why, but it might have been about sharing attention,
not wanting to be friends publically because she wants to pull on you for attention and love in a private way but not be connected to a friend at a public event so she can do her performance....
Whatever it is, hon, you'd be happier doing something without her.
I'm so sorry she's a jerk but so impressed that YOU SPOTTED THE FLAGS.
Don't worry about not having reacted right away by retreating.
I think you will now.
And you know what? I don't think I would tell her that she hurt you.
I would not tell her one thing about your feelings. Ever. No. Not anything.
(In some weird way, I think that's what she wants. Perhaps not consciously, but...)
So I'd not mention the conference. And when SHE does, that's assuming you decide to spend a minute of your precious time talking to this person...I'd say nothing. Literally nothing.
Or somebody else may have a comeback that would be good...overall, though, I think complete disengagement from this person would be a fine, healthy choice.
Ick, I wanna smacker.
Hops
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And you know what? I don't think I would tell her that she hurt you.
I would not tell her one thing about your feelings. Ever. No. Not anything.
(In some weird way, I think that's what she wants. Perhaps not consciously, but...)
Hops, you are so right, because when I have done just that ... she used it against me with "poor Leah, always sensitive"
So I'd not mention the conference. And when SHE does, that's assuming you decide to spend a minute of your precious time talking to this person...I'd say nothing. Literally nothing.
Hops, I will take your advice ..... because if I were to mention the conference in any way, she would most likely receive satisfaction for whatever her reason is for keeping me from the conference ...... and keeping me from meeting people, which is something that I desperately need, living on my own in a completely new area.
overall, though, I think complete disengagement from this person would be a fine, healthy choice.
Yes, you are right .......... though what folks will think hereabouts, she is a local, and it is a small area.
My mistake was sharing with her, as a Christian women who is senior to myself, all about my NexH and Nmother.
Thank you Hops
Leah
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Hi Leah,
I remember your original post about your new "friend". I remember she gave you a warning and that gave me shivers. I think the fact that she warned you shows that she knows there's something wrong with her, but she can't overcome it.
Might she be an N with some self awareness of her defect, but she is still unable to overcome the defect? Who cares, she's still an N and this latest conference thing proves it.
I agree with what Hops and CB said. Please do not let her know that she has hurt you. That will give her supply and she will take it to mean that you are vulnerable to her.
I also agree that this conference thing enables her to be "one up" on you. She's reminding you that she's the queen bee, you are the drone and don't forget it.
Want to share with you an interesting article about how Ns are predators: http://www.operationdoubles.com/narc/npd-blog/2006/11/perfect-crime.html
Your "friend" sounds like a predator. You asked "But why do that to me?" and I think this article kind of answers that questions:
"Why do they (Ns) target those who least deserve it? Because those who least deserve it are the easiest prey. They are the least suspecting, the most trusting, the most vulnerable. Every predator targets easy prey."
I understand you're new in town and it's really difficult to make friends with similar interests. But, is there another group with whom you could become involved? Sounds like this lady dominates the Church group and that it will be hard to change the group's dynamics of power as long as she's around.
dazed
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Hey Leah,
I shared somewhere on another thread ........ of my new friend who had said to me during a telephone conversation that she was so happy to have made friends with me, and, I happily agreed, to which she replied "but I have to warn you that I might hurt you" "you must tell me when I hurt you
Boy do those words sound familiar. My friend would say.
So sometimes I say things I shouldn't say.
I can be really loud and rude
But
I don't mean anything
I don't mean harm
Sometimes I don't think.
Hey that's just me.
Now that wasn't a red flag that was a brick that should of hit me in my head and knocked some sense into me right at that moment.
Ah, Live and learn, some of us do it the hard way.
Love,
Deb
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Wow. The author at operation doubles estimates about a 15% prevalence of malignant narcissism in the population. That's the EXTREME kind of narcissism... and what really unnerves me is that when I do my own lifetime N roll call, she's exactly right...
Say another 15 - 20% are Ns who aren't quite sociopaths... that makes 30-35% of the population N to some extent... and that just about fits. One out of every three.
>shudder< :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:
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Stormy,
Yeah; re: the #s, the percentage of Ns (of all varieties), I also shudder. I also counted the Ns I've encountered and THERE'S A LOT OF THEM!!! Dang, it's depressing.
It's also a bummer that when one meets someone (in any context: social, business), one must be cautious and "read" the other person, feel the 'nigglings' (thanks CB) and act on (not make light of or downplay) red flags.
Bottom line: We cannot be passive; sussing out whether someone is an N is a proactive activity. Upon discovery of an N, we must immediately remove ourselves from the N's firing range BEFORE the N shoots at us.
Nowadays, if I see red flags, I will not make an excuse for it or tell myself I'm over reacting. I'm just going to remove myself from the N's orbit and absence myself from the N's life.
Leah,
I think the the operationsdouble website (http://www.operationdoubles.com/narc/npd-blog/index.html) has some excellent info.
Leah, I think that because we were raised by Ns, we are more vulnerable than those who were raised by healthy people. Additionally, because we were raised by Ns, we are more vulnerable to Ns and Ns can sense that. Based on what I've read, this is why children of Ns often marry Ns. Also, Ns can sense our vulberability and that's why they are drawn to us- ie: that predator article; ie: your Church Group "friend", remember, as you said SHE chose you. Additionally, because we were raised by Ns, we are familiar with the abuse inflicted on us by an N and so, to us, the abuse feels "normal".
Therefore, we just have to be very aware of people we encounter and scrutinize their Nness. When the Red Flag waves, RUN!!!
"I will have to join another Church group, but, am a little bit worried how that will look." Leah, who cares how it looks? I bet that many people in both of the Church groups KNOW she's an N. They may not think of her as an N, but, I bet they know she's bossy, bullies, lies, one-ups people, etc. And, if they don't know that, then they're enablers in denial and you don't want to be with them because they are not healthy.
Now that we know about Ns, we don't want to be with Ns, enablers, people in denial or anyone who is mentally/emotionally unhealthy. Now that we know about Ns, we don't want to be with anyone (friends, lovers, boss, co-workers) who abuses us. If we're in a situation where we can't avoid them (work), we ignore them, don't give them supply and don't let them abuse us. We don't let the predator target us.
Yes, it takes time to find healthy people, but, they are out there (so I hear!) and we gotta find 'em.
dazed
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I will have to join another Church group, but, am a little bit worried how that will look.
Leah, hon, one thing we raised-by-Ns people do is tie ourselves in knots worrying about the remotest possbility of another person having an uncomfortable thought, or a curious thought, or a judgmental thought. And just in case someone MIGHT think something that isn't completely unruffled or peaceful or calm as a deep pool in a sunlit meadow we feel we MUST not do anything to cause even the tiniest ripple or shadow to appear in the perfect, balmy, calm of the world, or we will be AWFUL PEOPLE.
(Never mind that there are hawks, fish, waterbugs, algae, and turtles and that the whole thing is full of currents and life and sediment and activity below the surface.)
So....it sometimes helps if we do not give much information. And it helps a lot if we do not apologise or explain ourselves when there is no crime, no sin, just a choice for our own wellbeing.
Example, to someone you know in the current group, if they ask: "Oh thanks. I enjoyed that group, I'm glad we met. I decided this other group was better for me. Let's have coffee."
When the other persists, but why? "Oh, no big deal. I just like to try different groups. Glad to have found a friend though. When would you like to do coffee?"
When the other persists, gee, but I really liked having you there, we'll miss you. "(Big warm smile.) Well, thanks! Let's not miss each other! Let me know when you're free to grab a cup. Bye now!"
(Sorry, dialogue attack. I never sound like anybody actually would...but it helps me think about people's situations.)
hugs,
Hops
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Leah, hon, one thing we raised-by-Ns people do is tie ourselves in knots worrying about the remotest possbility of another person having an uncomfortable thought, or a curious thought, or a judgmental thought. And just in case someone MIGHT think something that isn't completely unruffled or peaceful or calm as a deep pool in a sunlit meadow we feel we MUST not do anything to cause even the tiniest ripple or shadow to appear in the perfect, balmy, calm of the world, or we will be AWFUL PEOPLE.
(Never mind that there are hawks, fish, waterbugs, algae, and turtles and that the whole thing is full of currents and life and sediment and activity below the surface.)
So....it sometimes helps if we do not give much information. And it helps a lot if we do not apologise or explain ourselves when there is no crime, no sin, just a choice for our own wellbeing.
Example, to someone you know in the current group, if they ask: "Oh thanks. I enjoyed that group, I'm glad we met. I decided this other group was better for me. Let's have coffee."
When the other persists, but why? "Oh, no big deal. I just like to try different groups. Glad to have found a friend though. When would you like to do coffee?"
When the other persists, gee, but I really liked having you there, we'll miss you. "(Big warm smile.) Well, thanks! Let's not miss each other! Let me know when you're free to grab a cup. Bye now!"
(Sorry, dialogue attack. I never sound like anybody actually would...but it helps me think about people's situations.)
hugs,
Hops
Thanks so much Hops,
And certainly no dialogue attack at all ......... you did what I needed, as I don't have anyone around me at the moment to enter into dialogue with regarding this.
It has really been a big help to me.
So....it sometimes helps if we do not give much information. And it helps a lot if we do not apologise or explain ourselves when there is no crime, no sin, just a choice for our own wellbeing.
That's exactly what I did with her and her husband, and, others whom i have come into contact with, as they ask where are you from dah de dah de dah etc etc.
Felt I had to justify reasons for getting my divorce, my NC with FOO (got that now Sunny! ... thanks) justify and testify my experiences, whilst shakey and weepy ............... justify my existence and choosing to live here.
Now I see where I have gone wrong.
Still 'too open and honest' ........ what an idiot I am :( She has all the juicy information and I feel well and truly stupid ..... again :?
Well I have risen from the ashes before, and, I am determined to rise and fly again :)
To survive, I know that I really must heed this good sound advice ........... it sometimes helps if we do not give out too much information. And it helps a lot if we do not apologise or explain ourselves when there is no crime, no sin, just a choice for our own wellbeing
Thank you so much Hops
((((((Leah))))))
ps ... Leah getting the hang of forum writing stuff :D
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Hops:
"Leah, hon, one thing we raised-by-Ns people do is tie ourselves in knots worrying about the remotest possibility of another person having an uncomfortable thought, or a curious thought, or a judgmental thought. And just in case someone MIGHT think something that isn't completely unruffled or peaceful or calm as a deep pool in a sunlit meadow we feel we MUST not do anything to cause even the tiniest ripple or shadow to appear in the perfect, balmy, calm of the world, or we will be AWFUL PEOPLE."
That was pure gold.
The dialog was great. Kinda like 'Dialogs for raised-by-Ns Dummies".
(((((((((((((((Leah)))))))))))))))
Please do not punish yourself. Self punishment is part and parcel of the whole raised-by-Ns thing. You are NOT stupid. I also self-punish, but I'm learning to self-forgive and then I REALIZE why the hell should I feel stupid? I made a mistake, but I'm not stupid. I've gota stop being so hard on myself. I'm harder on myself than I am on other people. Why can't I treat myself with the same understanding that I extend to others? Hey, I will!
So, you made a mistake by revealing yourself to the Church Lady. But, think about how this mistake is actually a blessing because we're discussing it, dissecting it and in the future, I bet you will not expose yourself as much to people who have not yet proved their trustworthiness.
I'm betting that you believed that this lady was trustworthy because she seemed pious. Well, goes to show ya, Ns can appear to be pious and pillars of the community. However, since we have been burned by Ns, we now know that we've got to suss out people before we can trust them.
"I am determined to rise and fly again": You got it Leah!!
love, dazed
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Dazed: many many thanks for posting the link .... and for your advice and comments re: 'predator'
The Perfect Crime
If you are reading this, the chances are that someone or something has given you a clue that you might find the key to a profound mystery in a mental illness known as Narcissistic Personality Disorder.
Maybe it was only yesterday. If so, you are probably still reeling from the discovery that you weren't imagining things, that something is wrong with a certain person in your life, and that your experience with him or her isn't unique.
Maybe all your life they've made you feel like a tethered bird, never allowed to feel good about yourself. Or maybe you have a sense of foreboding that comes through in bad dreams because it seems that this person, for no known reason, is out to get you.
But who would believe it? You yourself can't believe it. You've had to keep pinching yourself, because Why would anyone do that? Especially this person. And why would he or she do that to you? It defies reason.
Which makes it the perfect crime = the one no one believes. Because it goes against nature. And because it has no possible motive.
Yet, when you think twice, it's stupid to doubt that such things happen. The daily news proves that they do. For we could ask the old Why-would-anyone-do-that? question about every rape, every random murder, every child molestation, every random act of vandalism.
They are abundant proof of the FACT that some people need no motive. They act out of pure malice. They do it just to do it.
In fact, jurisprudence has long recognized the motive of pure malice.
Some people hurt you because hurting others makes them feel good. It makes them feel good in the same way that eating makes a starving person feel good. It makes them feel good in the same way that a narcotic makes a person in pain feel good.
Just as hungry people like eating and just as pained people like taking narcotics, they like hurting you.
They need to hurt you. Just as a hungry person needs food and a person in pain needs a narcotic. That's what you are to them, food, as to a vampire, or a punching bag to transfer their pain to.
For, they are predators.
So, they don't dare feel anything for you. No matter who you are - son, daughter, mother, father, brother, sister, husband, wife, best friend, benefactor, savior - no matter who you are they feel nothing for you.
It's a life or death matter: no predator dares feel anything for their prey; if they did, they couldn't survive, because they couldn't bear to do what they do to their prey.
So, they turn off their sensibilities and make light of it. What they do to you is just nothing…to them.
Why do they target those who least deserve it? Because those who least deserve it are the easiest prey. They are the least suspecting, the most trusting, the most vulnerable. Every predator targets easy prey.
Predators are in a class by themselves among the mentally ill. And they will be the first to tell you so.
What Makes Narcissistics Tick: http://www.operationdoubles.com/narc/npd-blog/2006/11/perfect-crime.html (http://www.operationdoubles.com/narc/npd-blog/2006/11/perfect-crime.html)
Predators are in a class by themselves among the mentally ill. And they will be the first to tell you so ...... well she certainly did that when she told me "I am going to hurt you"
Have read this through twice ....... I realise and accept that my church lady (as I now prefer to call her) was and is a Predator.
Yes, Dazed, I did think that this lady was trustworthy because, yes, she seemed pious. And i take your advice on board, in future people will need to prove their trustworthiness with me first.
((((((Thank You))))))
Leah
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One-to-three in every 20 people you meet are malignant narcissists. :shock:
Since the average person has no idea what's really going on in an encounter with a narcissist, he or she is dead meat.
Narcissists couldn't cause half the pain and suffering they cause if we could recognize the signs and understood what is going on.
http://www.operationdoubles.com/narc/npd-blog/2007/01/spotting-narcissists.html (http://www.operationdoubles.com/narc/npd-blog/2007/01/spotting-narcissists.html)
Predators are only dangerous when they get too close. In the great majority of cases, we can keep them from getting too close.
If you aren't naive, they're gone, off in search of easy prey.
So, these people would do vastly less harm if everyone were well enough informed to know that there are predators among us and that we therefore must pay attention, notice and heed, signs of bad faith, and mete out trust to others appropriately.
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Great post Lea.
Think I'll print it and put it on my frig.
dazed