Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: jordanspeeps on February 19, 2006, 11:26:47 AM
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Hey guys,
I’ve been through quite a bit of mental stress during the past year and suprisingly, I have not responded in a way typical of my former reserved self. In the past month or so, I have uncovered my father’s malignant Nism, (he hid it reeeeallly well) and it has left me with a lot of questions and worries. I’ve always known my mother was “off” and discovering her NPD in May of last year, was difficult enough, but reflecting on my relationship with my father has left me dangerously raw and concerned. You see, I thought it was my father's relative "normal-ness" that accounted for any "normal-ness" in me. But now, I’ve come to intellectualizing my own condition. Will you help me process these thoughts/hypothses? Please be honest, the more honest the better. I'm getting much, much, better with handling criticism. :)
I wonder, Is there a genetic predisposition to giving into self-destructive behaviors and their associated “negative” personality manifestations triggered by great stressors or abuse? I’m asking, is there a location on the human genome that accounts for
the way an individual responds to multiple adverse events in his/her life?
Are some people pre-programmed biologically to self-destruct/self-hate?
Granted, most would agree that environmental factors are certainly at play. Children who grow up in abusive homes, grow up observing and assumings roles presented by their parents. We can’t help but exhibit what our parent’s showed us within the home, right? Especially our same sex parent.
If it weren’t completely wrong and unethical, a study with identical twins could reveal the possibilities:
In some nominal number of pairs of identical twins (matching DNA), both born of completely self-absorbed, NPD parents, one twin each is (HYPOTHETICALLY) removed from said NPD parents at birth. Each of the set of twins are then raised separately in two distinct types of household. Household type #1/ Twin #1- the original NPD, self-absorbed, abusive household, and Household type #2/Twin #2- adversely, a typical, loving, empathic, non-abusive, non-N household.
After 18 years, each twin is then sent into the world under identical life circumstances, each subjected to the same multiple stressors i.e., abusive/ bully bosses, employment problems, illness/death of parents, relationship woes, trouble with the law, etc. (sounds more like an evil, wicked Truman Show. I am only being hypothetical here).
With such compression of major stressors, how would the mental health of each identical twin manifest itself? Would childhood envrionmental cues and patterns overcome biological propensity to react with self-destructive (some would be considered protective) modalities i.e.: obsessing, paranoia, unhealthy narcissism, abandonment, attacking others, criminal behavior, lying, stealing, abusing drugs/alcohol, sexual deviance/exploitation, projecting, splitting, denial. Or would the genetic endowment of the NPD parents outweigh environment, no matter how healthy?
Do you suspect a large likelihood that the cohort of twins raised in abusive households would follow the pattern set before them and manifest abuse upon themselves and others? And In the face of “negative” life events, what variables would affect the possibility that this twin would maintain good mental health and exhibit positive coping behaviors, despite NPD biology?
Would the twins raised in genuinely/relatively healthy households manifest his/her biological propensity towards abuse and exhibit self-destructive behavior under stress later in life or would they hold fast to their adoptive parents’ child-rearing (environmental cues)?
Are self-destruction/self-destructive behavior patterns passed along generations like alcoholism or diabetes? And what of the twin who has both the genetic endowment and the environmental exposure to abuse? Is he doomed/damned?
And what about possible mutations/mis-repair to this alleged “self-destruction” gene. Could damage to DNA on this gene cause a person to then be able to exercise apparent “resilience” in life; expressing healthy behaviors, despite a “negative” environment AND genetic endowment.
If we located the gene, do you think we could or would want to alter or repair the "self-destruction" gene in order to save the world from such horrible abuses to future generations? Or could said gene, be nature’s very own way of culling the weak and unfit?
Does/could this address “cycles of abuse” or apparent “family curses”?
I’ll close with an eerie Native American saying, that’s been stuck in my head for the last week: “There are two dogs that live in me, Whichever grows the largest, I feed.” (or something like that...)
I know it’s random, but what do you guys, think?
Tiffany
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Wow Tiffany big questions, I love it! :D I’m sorry I don’t have time for a big think and reply right now, I’m in cruising mode but I will be back to you. I like this type of stuff. Just for now…..
Are some people pre-programmed biologically to self-destruct/self-hate?
I think, right now, that I really doubt this. I doubt it is there from the moment the chromosomes come together. I think babies in the womb are affected hugely by what mother feels and thinks and what they can hear and feel from outside the body. I think what happens to babies in the first few months is critical.
If people were pre-programmed to self-destruct…..they wouldn’t live from the outset. They wouldn’t draw breath.
I think some of us have such huge barriers and obstacles in our heads to overcome that we can’t see the way….and if the brain can’t see a way through, it dies. But every molecule of our being is predisposed to fighting for our survival.
In surviving pain and suffering and self-hatred we grow and start to get better.
It hurts like hell. But in hurting we feel, and if we feel, we’re alive 8)
More another day….
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Hi, Tiff. I have heard that saying (but I get these wrong all the time) like this:
An old man tells his grandson that there are two wolves living in all of us. One is negative, dark, hard, scary and sad. It is bad, mean and cruel. The other is loving, caring, compassionate and safe.
They are at battle with one another. The child asks: which one wins? The old man tells him: The one you feed.
OR something like that.
I saw my neice go through horrible addiction, and her grandmother on her father's side was our town's most well known drunk.
I see my exn husband act like such a jerk, JUST LIKE HIS DAD, and I wonder, is it genetic as well as learned?
Now, I am not a psych scholar, but my ex's family has depression, alchoholism, obesity, panic/anxiety disorder, OCD, NPD, etc, by the bucketful. Including him (a few of them).
I did worry for my children, that the tendencies, genetically, would be for them to pick any number of those things up.
My second husband (who was a "know it all" but knew nothing....and who basically hated kids) used to tell me: "OH, personality is genetic!! You better watch out!!"
When my son was a baby, he did not smile at strangers easily. He stared them down. It was threatening to some people (peope are wierd when babies check them out....geez, he's 3 months old, get over yourself!!!) His dad loved that he made people uncomfortable (like father like son, I guess). I divorced his father when my son was 7.
He is now almost an adult, extremely friendly and kind hearted. He is a brilliant musician, and a mediocre student, that is well liked and he likes and forgives just about anybody. HE is really easygoing.
My daughter was the smiley, cute, Gerber baby, that seemed like the happiest little person on earth. She was a little shy, but mostly pretty easygoing. She is now a teenager (so all bets are off, I guess....maybe I could even disregard how she is now), But she is obsessed with good grades, how she appears, who hurts her, etc. She is still very friendly, but easygoing is NOT what I would call her. She was 3 when her dad and I broke up.
So I try to show my kids another way to do life: I don't drink, or have alcohol in my house, as my kids' dad has big problems drinking too much, and I can take it or leave it, so I'll leave it. I do not spend time with negative people if I can help it. I got help and pulled myself up out of situational depression and did that change in front of my kids, with their prodding. I think all of these things, help them make choices, WHATEVER their tendencies genetically are, to do life with consiousness and awareness. Someday, my daughter will stop chiding me for "talking all Ghandi" and take on some of it for herself. Maybe.
Anyway, it's their path, including the part about having a jerk for a dad. I bless it and hope they make it fun.
So, I guess that may not have been helpful. Maybe this is more so: I believe we DO have genetic predisposition, and environmental influences affect our development equally or more, depending on the individual. BUT we ALL have choice and the ability to choose. Some may understand this in this lifetime, some may not (like my ex, I am not holding my breath for that....but it's available to him, too).
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Hey Tiff,
I believe in the inherent worth and dignity of every person. (That's one core principle of my church/religion.)
One of the good legacies of my childhood religion was an optimistic faith that any human being can find a way to transformation. (There's will and choice involved...but the option's there.)
Hops
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Tiffany,
I think that genetics and environment both play a part in how a person develops their personality, along with all the other aspects of their life, but I also think that the inherent personality type, i.e., very sensitive, bullheaded, stubborn, gentle, strong, weak, whatever; has a great deal to do with how that individual will process their environment and ultimately choose their behaviors. I think it matters if you are a first, middle or last born child and the dynamics of the family. I even think that astrology plays a role in your personality traits.
When I look at my brother and I (two first-born children as we are 10 years apart), we could not be more different from each other, although raised by the same parents. Although I have lived most of my life surrounded by n men and have suffered the affects of that in my choices of life partners thus far, I do not believe I have anything but basically healthy n traits and with a lot of therapy have hopefully relieved myself of making poor choices in mates in the future. I had terrible parenting role models, but believe that I am a very good mother with great kids with whom I have a wonderful relationship. I have an adopted daughter and a birth son and they are as dissimilar as mum's two birth kids, but are both great in their own ways. I worry about the long-term affects of my exh's behaviors on our children and the legacy he has left them with, but all I can do is maintain a stable and healthy environment for them to model and hope it wins out in the end. So far, so good.
Ultimately, each individual must make their own path if they have the mental and physical resources to do so. We can use our family history and life events as the cornerstones to our life plan, but the rest must be filled in by how we choose to handle that history and the events. Some will get stuck in the pain and not be able to find their way to the light and others will choose to overcome and use the lessons to build a better and healthier life. Sometimes finding the internal and external resources to accomplish that seems overwhelming and nearly impossible, but I do believe it is possible for anyone able to find the strength to do so.
Brigid
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Hey guys, thanks for the replies. It's very appreciated.
Hi Portia,
If people were pre-programmed to self-destruct…..they wouldn’t live from the outset. They wouldn’t draw breath.
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What of miscarried fetuses or stillbirths? Would the hypothesis allow for that? Also, Thanks for:
In surviving pain and suffering and self-hatred we grow and start to get better
That still seems a little counter-intuitive to me, but I am going to go along with my recent decision to acknowledge and validate my own negative feelings/projections when they arise and not stifle or quash them before they have an opportunity to reveal themselves.
it's not so lovely to acknowledge my own pure rage and anger regarding my childhood, but I am becoming more and more determined to learn to cope in more effective ways so that I can advance to a more fulfilling adulthood
Mum, your words are encouraging to me. I have a 5 year old and I made a promise to myself to somehow break the devastating abuse cycle in my family with her upbringing. Sometimes, I have no clue how that will happen since, I haven't observed functionality up close, but I get by. I've always, somehow, managed to get by. The Grace of God, I'll attribute. I refuse to do to my sweetheart what was and wasn't done to/for me at her age. I think of times when I was a girl, trying to figure out how to solve a problem without parents nearby. (There were not only emotionally distant, they were physically unavailable working ridiculous hours that had them both out of the house when we were awake.
Very much a latchkey kid by age 7, I had to figure out how to prepare meals, clean/maintain a house, wake up in the morning, dress myself, and catch the schoolbus every day. By age 12, I had figured out what a menstrual cycle was and somehow snooped around in my mother's locked bedroom to locate feminine products and teach myself how to mange my womanhood. Not allowed school friends, I had to be extremely observant in order to pick up on acceptable social behavior, I'm sure unwittingly making an ass out of myself regularly. I didn't get fitted for much needed prescription eyeglasses until I was in the 5th grade. (The school nurse and teachers were furious, I remember). At the age of 5, I made an verbal outcry to my parents and others that my private parts were burning and hurting after my teenaged (15-18) cousins "played doctor's" with me in the bed, and it was never acknowledged by the adults of the family. I think I got a beating for it, actually.
I look at my daughter, now and we talk constantly about her life at school and dance and karate class. We talk about her teachers and I ask about and try to meet anybody working with my kid. I'm never far from her. We clean her room together and although, I've only recently learned, we cook together and share a lot of moments during domestic duties. It's great and easy, because it's new to her, too! I try to answer any question she has, no matter how redundant it is or how tired I am. I've never been able to raise my hand to her, despite the daily recreational beatings, I received at her age. But she also, has never really given me much trouble. She talks when she should be quiet sometimes, but that's hardly worth a beating. I used to get a backhand slap, (rings, nails, and all) right across the lips, when I did that as a five year old. My little one is reading on a 2nd grade level and is very supportive to the special needs students in the class, according to her K teacher. With her well-adjusted nature alone, today, I have proven to myself that I can reverse some of what happened to me. After reading your post, mum, I'm feeling that my daughter's success and continued positive interactions with others will be it's own reward to both her and myself. I find warmth and peace in that thought. Thanks mum.
I have to run, but I'll address the other replies when I get another moment. Thanks again, guys.
Tiff
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Tiffany,
I grew up in a house where my parents denied all emotions. No discussions. No talking. No hugging or kissing or cuddling. When I was struggling with my emotions and described my experiences, they just looked at me like I had 3 heads. They told me I would have to figure out what to do about "it" myself. The subtext message I got was that they had no idea at all what I was talking about and it was so foreign to them that they couldn't even help talk it through with me. (Actually, in hindsight, that WAS the case, just not for the reasons I believed at that time.)
So, I blamed myself. Hey, if these emotion things aren't coming from my parents, it must be some kind of birth defect. In fact I am not even human. No matter how I try to get rid of these feelings, they keep coming back and I can't control them. I don't fit in with these clueless, emotionless human beings who don't realize how much of the time they are hurting others because they don't even see them. Like a planet full of ghosts. I am an alien on an alien planet and I will never fit in here. I just have to try to find some way to cope with the cosmic mistake of being born on the wrong planet. (Don't think I'm exaggerating here. I truly believed all these things.)
Now, with the benefit of 2 or 3 decades and a lot of learning, I understand what I did much better:
- First, I love the little kid in me for doing such an awesome and awe-inspiring job of taking care of me then. He did things that still amaze me and that honestly were well beyond his years.
- Second, I accepted all the responsibility and blame for the problem of not fitting in. This was much safer than admitting my parents were not competant and were emotionally not present. Obviously now, I realize that they just didn't have the awareness or the skills to do this. I didn't do anything wrong. I was a perfectly "normal" little kid in a barren family.
- Third, since it it was my fault, I had all the power. It was not up to them, it was all up to me and I didn't have to wait on them. I didn't have to be held back by their limitations and fears. The dark side of this is that I was telling myself that I was better than them. "Well, if this is what puny, worthless human beings are, than I am better than that." (Wow, I kept writing this in present tense and having to correct. Still some work for me here somewhere.)
- Fourth, since I am an alien without any alien parents to guide me, I can, and have to, decide what to do on my own. On the good side, this gave me the freedom to find some strongholds in myself to be myself and not limit who I was. The huge downside is that this further isolated me from other people.
The truth is that I am a human being with all the same strengths and flaws. I was never an alien. I (little me) created all this fantasy in my head. It was a way to explain a confusing and depressing (literally) situation. It was a way to decide what to do next, since I felt so unconnected and without help. It was a way to feel powerful and in control, when I really felt completely powerless and without any ability to have an impact on the world. I could still have an impact on me. It was a way to survive, but not to live. It didn't matter whether it was right or not. It was functional in the sense that it gave me hope and direction. It was obviously NOT functional in the sense that is had no connection to reality.
I did survive a difficult situation. With God, therapy, reading, self-awareness (sorry mudpup :wink:) I am learning how to LIVE! I am no longer willing to just survive. I give huge credit to the little me that did what he had to do to preserve "us" until the adult me was able to take over and make the reality based changes that truly take care of me. But, all that is a long answer to your post.
The short answer is: Everyone does the absolute best, spare NO effort, leave no rock unturned job of taking care of themselves as children in difficult circumstances. I believe that no matter how maladjusted, hurtful (to others), self-harming, or just plain ineffective, all of these things came out of the need to survive a tough situation with insufficient help. For the lucky ones of us, at some point in our lives, we ask, are required, or are offered the help we need to wake up and change the things that don't actually help us. For the unlucky ones, they cannot break out of the negatives of the cycle. They can't find or don't trust the help that is available to them. Their sense of who they are reamins locked in the mental self-views that they formed to survive. Can they change? Yes, just like everyone else! What does it take to get them to be willing to change? I don't know. I am grateful everyday that I somehow feel into the first group. I still don't know why. I'm not comfortable with the answer of "luck," but that may have quite a bit to do with it. I do believe that any health-seeking behavior, no matter how tiny, continues to build and will unravel our self-defenses, given enough time. I don't think any of this really answers the questions you posed, but is a little different way of looking at things.
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Jacmac: just a thought: As souls, I agree we enter this earthly life in an agreement: which parents will fulfill our learning purpose, etc....but could it also be that we also are given/or take, certain bodies with genetic predispositions (alcoholism, depression) as well? If it is all for learning (which I do agree) then the genetic "uphill" some of us go, may well be part of the big picture.
But I am not particularly certain that Karma is "what goes around, comes around". I think that is a western take on it. I think it is not so cut and dry, or necessarily a "pay back" or judgement the universe makes that we pay for again and again until we get it. I would love to think of Hitler having some sort of pay back....and as a child, I thought the firey hell I learned about in church would suit him fine. However, I still do not think he necessarily became the abused as a payback lesson. It doesn't fit with a loving God or Universe of love at all... even for the darkest evil, I am not sure the return is more evil.
It might be nice to think so, and though I do believe there must be some sort of karmic debt to pay, I'm just not so sure it works that way at all. Maybe he is just a cockroach, over and over....never moving higher to God. Still wondering.
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Hey, Tiff, forgot to reply to you....I am glad anything I said is helpful. I never know....I just ramble, I think. You sound like a remarkably good mom. Don't ever doubt it. I know what you mean about not even believing how someone could hit a child...any child, but especially one they love. It's just nonsense and a sure sign the parent has no creativity and no self control. My own children would just cringe if I raised my voice, so I could not imagine why anyone would need (or want) to raise a hand, when all I had to do was change my tone (oooooh, the lecture's coming...!)
It always reminded me of the horses I used to ride who had "tough mouths" because someone had constantly pulled at the bit. They were numb to it after a while, and then the trainers would say they are no good to ride, unless you like beating a horse, because the subtle hand movements required to communicate through the bit, were no longer felt.... I figure it's like that with kids. What have you got left in your "arsenal" of teaching tools, if you bring out physical punishment for ANYTHING.
As a teacher, I have seen so many "tough mouthed" kids, whose parents have lost them. The kids are numb.
Well, I got on my high horse, sorry. Tiff: You are showing your child what love really looks like. That's a parent's job: to teach love. Bless you.
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Sticking to the topic of voicelessness, I must assume you mean by "self-destructive" behaviors those that the N presents.
These traits are instilled in childhood. It happens when the child is attempting to differentiate itself from it's mother/primary caregiver. When things go wrong here, things to terribly wrong.
Your questions screams out, "why?" Which is the ultimate question. Why must people be self-destructive and other-destructive? Yes, there's usually a "reason" that can be traced back. But at the time that the wife, the child, the loved one is getting raged at, told they are worthless, devalued and lied to, what does it matter?
The question I ask is, "what now?" How do we change this terrible situation?
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Jac, Tiff, Mum, I think you are EXTRAORDINARY mothers.
Longtire, you are the human spirit .. infinite.
All of you are inspirations to me, and in no shallow sense.
Thank you.
Hops
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I really like your thread Tiffany. So I wrote a big reply.
I believe that every child is born to live productively. People are not born evil, they are made to behave in evil ways as a direct consequence of their early childhood.
I’ve read an awful lot of Dorothy Rowe, Alice Miller and various psyche books in the past couple of years. One thing that comes through clear as a bell is:
people will think and feel and act according to how they were treated as young children and how they interpret that treatment.
Alice Miller does a great job looking at the childhoods of Hitler and other dictators. Everything has a reason. Nothing is ‘gratuitous’. The phrase ‘gratuitous violence’ is a contradiction.
It seems that a child treated cruelly needs only one caring, mirroring witness to grow with some sense of self. And that creates the ability to transcend their need to act out their abuse.
Many experiments with twins have been done. Lots of incredibly cruel stuff was done to children in the first half of the last century in the name of scientific enquiry. I guess much is still to be uncovered about what was done. What we do know about is bad enough, to me.
It’s only very recently (last 40/30/20 years) that we’ve come to know (or perhaps admit to ourselves in certain countries and cultures) so much more about how babies develop and what is harmful to them.
I was reading about ‘swaddling’ clothes today. Swaddling was like a body bandage that restricted the baby’s movements from the neck down, from birth. Swaddling was used in many countries including Italy in 1930s to make the mom’s life easier. A swaddled baby is like an inert package that can be placed anywhere and will not move (cannot move). Swaddled babies were hung up on hooks to keep them out of the way of filthy floors, to allow mom to get on with her work. Swaddling was ‘believed’ to help the limbs grow strong and straight and that a baby left naked would behave like an animal and grow up to be less than human. I found this quite shocking information.
Anyway. It’s only recently that we’ve started to really believe that children are aware and react to their environment from before they’re born.
In the case of the twins, I’d imagine that a twin taken at birth and give a loving home would not grow up to be an abuser. A baby bonds with the mother face it is given. Given a constant loving mother figure (and it does not have to be the bio mom) and a loving environment, a baby will grow to trust, love, and become a secure, confident, loving self.
The brain is not finished at birth and everything that happens to a child in the first year to three years is critical in how that child will be.
I believe genes have a minimal effect on personality! I haven’t read anything about this, it’s just what I think from watching people and hearing about their pasts.
Genes are basic building blocks biology. The brain is a hugely complex thing running on electricity and stuff I know zero about. Brain research is fascinating stuff. When we’re born our brains are almost like blank slates (but not totally blank) ready for all the programming to take place. I see our brain at birth as having the Basic Operating System (as in computers). It tells our bodies how to breath, move, eat, recognise a face shape etc etc. As soon as we’re born the programming starts and we load lots of new software, rapidly. The basic system responds to certain stuff – physical touch, loving looks, loving sounds, mirroring faces and starts laying down networks for future thoughts and feelings.
Chemical and physical genetic predispositions are not the same as thoughts and ideas. It’s thoughts and feelings foremost that make us abusive, maybe a chemical imbalance second. But the brain produces its own chemicals and given a certain stimulus, it will change its own balance. It’s such complex stuff.
All this is my own interpretation of stuff I’ve read mixed with my own opinions.
If people were pre-programmed to self-destruct…..they wouldn’t live from the outset. They wouldn’t draw breath.
What of miscarried fetuses or stillbirths? Would the hypothesis allow for that?
I’m not sure I understand what you mean here? I think if babies are miscarried or born dead (and not from medical or other mishap) then the baby had something ‘wrong’ with it. It wasn’t viable.
In surviving pain and suffering and self-hatred we grow and start to get better
That still seems a little counter-intuitive to me,
Why? If we don’t survive that stuff…..we continue in self-hatred and suffering don’t we? If we go through the pain…it lessens and is replaced with something better. If we stay in the pain, we only feel pain. We have to survive the pain to grow. By surviving the pain, I mean going through it again. Doing the original pain work as it’s called by some.
but I am going to go along with my recent decision to acknowledge and validate my own negative feelings/projections when they arise and not stifle or quash them before they have an opportunity to reveal themselves.
I don’t understand Tiff! I see it as you simply disagreeing with me, I don’t see projections or anything else. It’s okay to disagree. I like to know why and what it is I don’t understand. But I don’t want to be pushy either. What you say and what you respond to is your choice. No explanation necessary in some ways….sorry can’t express exactly what I mean here, except to say: say what you feel, please.
it's not so lovely to acknowledge my own pure rage and anger regarding my childhood,
Nope it hurts like hell. That’s how it works. I think it must be true to say that everyone who changes for the better – grows, becomes more self-aware – experiences terrible pain. Who said it was lovely? I say it stinks but there’s no other way.
but I am becoming more and more determined to learn to cope in more effective ways so that I can advance to a more fulfilling adulthood
Coping. I don’t want you to cope. I don’t want anyone to cope. Coping is not dealing, is not solving, is not changing. Coping is continuing in the same place and fighting the ‘you’ inside that wants to yell and scream at what was done to you. It’s valid to feel pain and rage and anger. Therapy is one of the best places to do it. If you can do it with one person who listens to you, believes you and doesn’t judge you but allows you to revisit that pain….that’s how the pain lessens and is replaced with better understanding and a more realistic set of emotions (realistic emotions for adult life).
Coping is about scabbing over the wounds, covering them. Talking about advancing to a more fulfilling adulthood is talking to prop up your sense of false self. That’s my interpretation. I’ve done it and continue to do it. When I get threatened, I become so darn ‘right’ about what’s right for me. I get very ‘adult’ when I’m threatened.
I don’t want to become an adult in the sense of some closed-off, repressed, control-freak. I want to become more of a child with a bigger sense of curiosity and playfulness. I want to become happier with the universe! I don’t want to be ‘adult’ in some ways of interpreting that word. However, with more freedom to be playful and free, comes an additional commensurate level of self-responsibility. I take full responsibility for my self, my thoughts, my feelings, my actions. That’s pretty big stuff and not everyone wants that level of responsibility. Many people want to be told what to think, feel, do and they stay that way, pretty much as children.
I read how you are with your daughter and want to say: you’ve passed the line of being abusive, do you know that? You’ve recognised what happened to you as wrong and in doing that, you’ve rejected it. Many people don’t, they simply do exactly what was done to them, they can’t see any further than that and they will defend their actions because they want to protect their internal images of their (loving) (in fact hating) parents. That’s denial.
You’ve grown beyond what was done to you. You’re a great mother. I think you maybe need to grieve the life that little 5 year old Tiff had, because it was cruel and terribly hurtful.
You have already stopped the cycle of abuse by recognising it for what it was. Cycles continue when nobody steps off the wheel: you’ve stepped off.
((((((((((((((((Tiffany))))))))))))))
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an interesting question. i think yes.the reason i think this is because both myself and my sister were both brought up with an n mother. we have lead our lives similar. i have 3 children, i have one child with adhd and asd, one child with aspergers syndrome and one "normal" child. my sister has 3 children, she has twins with aspergers and adhd and one "normal" child. i have really tried to deal with issues i am faced with, i dont see problems only hurdles, there is always a way over them. i refuse to be beaten or consumed.
my sister on the other hand, god love her is struggling to keep her head above water. she has always struggled with depression and 2 years ago when our mother devalued the pair of us, the "selfdestruct" button was pushed on my dear sister. since then, she self harms, the bulimia is out of control and she has turned to alchohol.
so in answer to your question, i think there are some that are more suseptable to "self destruct" than others.
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Portia said:
people will think and feel and act according to how they were treated as young children and how they interpret that treatment.
I don't think this is always true. I have a family member with 2 adopted children. Both were adopted as infants very early on. Both children were raised by loving parents, in a good community, with religious influence, and a large extended loving family. The oldest is a boy, now 22 years old, who had a birth father who ended up in jail and had multiple problems fitting into society. By the time the boy was in high school, he had become a bully, suspended from school multiple times, had pulled a knife on his parents and sister and literally had the family afraid for their lives. They had him evaluated by many different psychologists, put him in therapy when he was still in middle school, had him on meds for various diagnoses (adhd, depression, etc.), and spent a great deal of money trying to turn him around. Once he was 18 they had to give up because he wouldn't have any part of their help anymore and since he was legally an adult, they no longer had any control. He has a good chance of ending up just like his birth father, despite being raised by excellent role models who did everything they could for him.
The daughter is 19 and doing great and was relieved when her brother moved out of the house as she was afraid of him.
So, since you didn't qualify your statement with any disclaimers regarding inherited mental disabilities, I thought I would tell this story.
Brigid
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Hi Brigid, thanks for your post. Interesting example and one that makes my brain fuddle….why did he grow up like that? There must be reasons…
I don’t know about inherited mental disabilities – I mean, don’t our professionals still argue about whether or not schizophrenia is innate or acquired? Our understanding of mental ‘disabilities’ – autism, dyslexia and so on – is increasing all the time. I take disability to mean brains that do not function in the way that most of us (here, culturally where we are etc) expect them to function ie. abnormal for want of a better word.
Perhaps the son has a disability of some sort that has not been diagnosed, or has not been discovered yet? (but that doesn’t mean it’s caused by a gene does it?)
It is very interesting: how old were they when adopted? What happens to us when we are very small – or even in the womb - can have a huge impact. Were they adopted from different families?
I sense you making the connection between the son’s behaviour and the father’s behaviour, but does that mean it is inherited? (I kind of have too much hope to believe that, but am waiting to be shocked all the time by new evidence…..which makes me wonder…if we got the evidence, "yes, some people are born evil" what would we do with it….)..
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Thanks for all the insight folks! I would like to address all you who replied, I’m still reading and would like to post as I go along. I've just begun longtire's post, now and I'm already so encouraged by it. There is a ton of good stuff here and in my PMs, (thanks, again mudpup!). Please bear with me, I’m also involved in a big work project this week. But, please keep the dialouge going, nonetheless.
Thanks for the astrology reminder, Brigid, I consulted my trusty Comprehensive Horoscopes for 2006, (Berkely Books,), and (Sterlling Publishing) here’s some of what the planets have/had in store for me and my fellow Pisceans out there.
“Cool Acquarian intellect encounters fiery Leo emotions. Mars in stubborn Taurus forms a square to both the Sun and Moon, increasing tension due to your unwillingness to compromise. (FEB 12). Avoid direct conflict if possible. Butting heads with individuals who are more butt-headed than you can leave you with a headache. (I kinda wish I had read this a week ago). :) Use this lunation to spark creative ideas to replace outmoded routines and habits. Wild and crazy Uranus conjuncts this New Moon in your 1st House, an aspect that gets your nervous system jumping and your mind racing with original ideas. You could feel restless now and anxious for change. You may susprise people-and yourself with the unexpected things you say and do. Your desire to be free in every way possible may override you usual sensitivity to others, which could result in a relationship shake-up. Trickster Mercury is retrograde from March 2-23. Overlooked details, missed messages and problems with machinery, travel, or equipment are more common at this time and since it’s occuring in your sign, Pisces, the effects may seem more intense. On the plus side, this is a time to look inward and untie the knots of negative self-judgment that have been holding you back. For every loss, there’s a gain, so gently let go of the people or beliefs that cause you too much pain.
“Pisces prone to the blues should set targets and keep busy. Pisces with something to say should get a hearing. The state of the world might really get under your skin. Whether its a political, cultural, economic, or religious, there’s likely a bone to pick with somebody. Be wary of launching an attack on those you live with. They’re sitting ducks and not responsible for the bigger picture. Resist the temptation to throw in the towel and run away. Knee-jerk denial and emotional over-reaction won’t get you where you need to go. Someone could try to undermine youi through gossip and untruth. What is most important is getting to the truth of a situation. All the bluff and bluster betwwen disagreeing parties could just be a case of ego trips and saving face rather than an attempt to find significant differences. Arguing against stronger forces than yourself, be it an individual or institution is pointless now. And it doesn’t matter whether you are right or wrong. Giving in, would be the smart tactic until you can challenge with overwhelming evidence. Family and household members are best handled with kid gloves. Show sensitivity to the feeling of all concerned. Let a generosity of spirit and wisdom predominate over any need for power or control. You know where you are at. Let others see that and work things out. Despite feeling independent, resourceful, and self-sufficient, you just may not be in a position to accomplish everything single-handedly. Desired goals and outcomes are more likely to happen with able-bodied assistance. So when it’s offered, enthusiastically welcome it.!!!
With that in mind, thanks, Hopalong and Jacmac , for the spiritual perspective. I took time to ruminate on a lot in your response, Jacmac, and the following:
Why, even the person you struggle with, the person whom you have the most anger towards is most often a reflection of the inner workings of yourself that you have disconnected with and are trying to bring to the surface so that you can begin to integrate both your negative and positive sides. At other times this person can be, as Richard said, recreating a particular condition and environment from which you need to learn. Thus the inevitable pull towards this person, the deep seeeded need to respond, while on the surface you feel that you do not want to.; the desire to remain, even as parts of you tell you to run. The accelerated heart beat, the rushing of blood through your veins, all indications of a very strong response ( and connection ) to another. I believe we, as humans reject that, because our egos don't want to believe that we would actually have a connection with someone who is hurting us or whose behavior we find distasteful
feels like truth to me. Without going into too much, this is probably very much the case. Thank you for that.
In the past, my faith and spirituality has gotten me through tough times. I HAVE been a lunatic lately, though. :) and am searching far and wide for ways to explain “why me, why now, what’s next.” and to figure out how to deal. Jacmac, Brigid, and Hopalong, (and MP) your dialouge sorta brings it back home for me, though. Man’s extremity is God’s opportunity, they used to tell me in church. And the description of Karma is beautiful and powerful makes life seem so much more purposeful and meaningful. And the astrology just rounds out the ecclectic New Age mix just enough to make it, Tiffany Jordanspeeps, the Pisces Christian Yogi !! Thanks, all, I’ll post again, soon.
Tiffany
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Longtire
I completely relate to creating a childhood fantasy. I imagined I was adopted, despite the fact that I am the spitting image (that creates an image, humm..) of my mother: high cheekbones, large smile, reddish skin undertones. I would fantasize about my “birth mother”. I would dream of the day I was to meet “her”. I would anticipate longingly her proud, reactive response to me. I would ask her if she thought I was pretty. She, unlike my Nmom to whom I asked the very same question, would, instead of saying, “Well, you’re smart and that’ll get you further in life, “ simply reply on Easter morning in my frocks, “Sweetie, you are the prettiest little thing, I’ve ever seen.” I overachieved in school, (after I got the eye-glasses, and could see the blackboard, of course), because when I met my “birth mother” I wanted her to be so proud of me and what I’d accomplished in my years. Even today, I love to watch “Adoption Stories” on TLC because I identify with the adopted so much.
That fantasy held until recently, when I dug up my family history, and it came crashing to the ground with this NPD business. But, longtire, I relate and identify with your childhood so much.
First, I love the little kid in me for doing such an awesome and awe-inspiring job of taking care of me then. He did things that still amaze me and that honestly were well beyond his years
Two years ago, I was proud and amazed at what I was able to accomplish as a child, but recently my spirit had begun to break as I mourned and felt sorry for the child in me. When I was 12, a sick, backwoods, farming family took an interest in me. Because my parents didn’t give a hoot, in whose company I remained, they allowed this family (18 year-old daugter, 16 year old son, quietly weird mom and deacon dad) to take me home with them after church on Sundays and some days in the summer. I wouldn’t/couldn’t protest this, and loved the nature and beauty of the countryside, so I looked forward to leaving my boring home. I read a lot, too, so a lot of the times, my head was buried in a book. (I was reading Tiger Eye by Judy Blume at the time. I had no idea, what sadistic plans this isolated family had for me on thier very isolated farm, but it felt to be too late once I was 3 months pregnant after only my second period. I remember those days when I was 12, the horrific feeling of being alone in this, hours and hours of crying alone while my siblings were in school.
And when I went into the abortion clinic alone to complete the paperwork and have the procedure, I remember having to take the clipboard with the paperwork which needed signing back out to the car where my parents were parked together, talking. I didn’t think of it then, but I break up now, thinking, “they had each other to talk to, lean on." I had no one. Once the decision was made, I managed the entire process without my parents, save the 35 mile ride to the clinic. They were convinced the farm family was out to get them, because of jealousies within the church. Mom thought I should have known better than to let them trick me in such a way and to NEVER speak of the incident or to any of the farm family members again, ever.
You don’t know how many times, I ‘ve seen the pure look of shock on the faces of teachers, nurses, principles, and other authority figures during that time. But, the social worker who held my hand and explained what was happening to me, was clearly shaken by her experience with me. I used to think these people were angry at me. I now realize they were angry at my parents... and probably themselves, a little, too.
longtire, this is just what the doctor ordered:
I did survive a difficult situation. With God, therapy, reading, self-awareness (sorry mudpup ) I am learning how to LIVE! I am no longer willing to just survive. I give huge credit to the little me that did what he had to do to preserve "us" until the adult me was able to take over and make the reality based changes that truly take care of me
I love that!! Thanks
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Tiff,
You have taken tragedy and carved out an aware, caring life.
I am awed by you, and horribly sorry for what you suffered.
I do not know what was wrong with your parents but their lack of caring seems evil to me.
But you are good, innocent, and you were then.
What an incredibly strong life force you had in you, all through that torment.
What a powerhouse old lady you're going to be.
You will have such an amazing influence on all the young vulnerable people you meet.
You are a hero and a champion and you've gotten a Gold in the life Olympics.
Can't verbalize how much I respect your sanity and courage.
Hopalong
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Tiffany,
I had the same shock reaction :shock: reading about the horrible, evil situation you had to grow up under. I literally had a physical reaction of horror and adrenaline while reading this. I am so glad that you are here now and are doing what you need to do to take care of yourself. How awesome that you have made a good life out of something that I don't think I could even have survived. Hooray for little Tiffany for doing what she needed to survive and for big Tiffany for doing what it takes to truly LIVE!
((((((((((((((((((((((((((Tiffany))))))))))))))))))))))))))
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Portia,
It is very interesting: how old were they when adopted? What happens to us when we are very small – or even in the womb - can have a huge impact. Were they adopted from different families?
In this case, the children were only weeks old when adopted. I agree that how the mother cares for herself during pregnancy can have an affect on the babies overall health, but IMO a stretch to have them turn out sociopathic as a result. Yes, they were from 2 different families. I also have an adopted daughter who came to me at 4 1/2 months from a foreign country. Her baby teeth were rotting out of her head by the time she was 2 1/2 due to the birth mother's lack of nutrition during pregnancy, but otherwise my daughter has been very healthy and she is now nearly 18 years old.
Where do the serial killers come from? Or worse yet, those who rise to power like Hitler and Hussein and have no regard for human life. I do believe that a lot can be learned from examining their brains after death and finding out which screw was loose. I don't think that behavior that evil can come from just having a bad childhood. And not all people doing evil deeds come from bad homes. It certainly increases the chances, but it's no guarantee either way. I just can't agree that it is all nurture and no nature.
Brigid
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dandylife,
i see what you’re getting at here. how do we move on, right? Personally, I’m looking up my resources and trying to find out how I can get some therapy. I’m self-employed and don’t have typical health insurance, nor can I afford it, really. But I am getting ready to re-enter university, and I believe I will be able to utilize their services while a student there. I’m desperate to change my depressed state. I could use some ideas on changing my thought patterns and coping with the everyday and future stress that are my Nparents. I decided it wrong to just up and leave them forever without notice and will have to care for them, (somehow) in their elderly years, so I’d better figure out soon how to cope with Nism or else it’s likely I will self-and other-destruct!!! I don’t want to do that.
As for the state of the world and how we deal with Nism as humans. I don’t know if you can even get us to quantify and agree on a problem, let alone have the global interest and humanity to attempt to solve it. It is survival of the fittest isn’t it? to In the meantime, like the common cold, we treat symptoms, I suppose.
thanks for the input dandylife.
mum and hopalong, the kind words about motherhood are appreciated.
tiffany
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Oh Tiffany, I learn more every day.
Please keep talking if you want to. Your experiences are shocking and …. I don’t what to say to express my horror and amazement. Horror for your experiences, amazement at how I perceive your apparently relative low anger? I’d be – I don’t know.
I’ll do (hopefully) ‘rational’ stuff in talking if that’s okay. You talk about being a lunatic of late, not behaving right etc? I’m using my own words there. I just want to say, you sound sane and you behave just fine to me. Please give yourself a break, permission to be who you are (I like who you are), if that’s possible.
Just a couple of thoughts:
I thought it was my father's relative "normal-ness" that accounted for any "normal-ness" in me.
Yeah. I’ve found that I’m so different to my birth parents, apart from physical similarities. My brain doesn’t seem anything like either of theirs.
I thought I was a product of two sets of genes and that I would inevitably grow up to be ‘a chip off the old block’, showing behavioural and thinking similarities to my parents. I kept looking for traits in me from them, as though I wasn’t a separate, defined individual.
I know now that I am a separate, distinct person with my own thoughts and feelings. Not inherited! It’s like I expected to become a carbon-copy of bits of both of them, without my own ‘self’. I guess that’s because I didn’t have a ‘self’ of my own to trust and nourish? That’s how I see it.
Two years ago, I was proud and amazed at what I was able to accomplish as a child, but recently my spirit had begun to break as I mourned and felt sorry for the child in me.
When I started to realise my stuff I found it overwhelming and disorienting. I felt like the world I knew was shifting and becoming a different place. I still feel like that sometimes. I didn’t see it as my spirit breaking though; not sure I had a spirit in the first place. I was just a numbed out survivor who didn’t feel much. That spirit you mention breaking……how do you see that? I mean, what does it mean to you, your spirit breaking?
I think maybe it’s okay to break up a little sometimes to help us reform ourselves into something more real and alive?
I just read your post above and wanted to say, have you read/got any books of practical advice that have helped you? I found the easy ‘Why is it always about you?’ very practical on: finding your own reality, knowing your strengths, dealing with the Ns in everyday life. It’s my handbook!
Take care.
Hi Brigid, the more I read, the more I don’t know. I’m changing my mind to ‘maybe both’ (born/made) as I think more and read more. I’d like to examine those brains while they’re alive, not dead! Maybe they’re scanning Saddam’s brain as we speak? Although we probably know enough about his family.
From what I can tell, we really don’t know. There’s so much we don’t know! Thanks for telling your experiences, it made me think differently.
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portia,
In your comment,
If people were pre-programmed to self-destruct…..they wouldn’t live from the outset. They wouldn’t draw breath.
What of miscarried fetuses or stillbirths? Would the hypothesis allow for that?
I’m not sure I understand what you mean here? I think if babies are miscarried or born dead (and not from medical or other mishap) then the baby had something ‘wrong’ with it. It wasn’t viable.
I felt you were saying, we wouldn’t even draw air if we were pre-programmed to self-destruct, but it happens. Life is begun and “something” programs it to end. Hence miscarriage and stillbirth. What if that pre-programmed likelihood of physical/ or mental destruction or death is not meant to be as a fetus or infant. What if that time is 12 y.o. or 17 y.o. or 32 y.o. Whenever they organism has encountered the “great stressor.”
and in reference to:
In surviving pain and suffering and self-hatred we grow and start to get better
That still seems a little counter-intuitive to me,
I should have expressed myself more clearly. I probably should have used the word “seemed counterintuitive” Based on my former thinking patterns, it goes against what I’ve learned about pain. From my parents I received the message that dealing with painful things makes you worse, not better. I was programmed to think there was no use in drudging up, or enduring pain, best to avoid it completely. We lived an extremely sheltered and boring life. Ironically, as a child, I would beg my father to help me explain the bible verse beatitude that goes, “Blessed are the longsuffering, for they shall see God.”
Back to point, portia, these days I tend to agree with you, (and Dr. G and others) that experiencing pain and self-hatred can help us grow and get better. My current source of pain, I believe, is my intense anxiety which breeds negativity and pessimism. Stuff I used to hide from myself and others with ultra-decorum and super-politeness, (mostly to get folks to like/accept me) is now keeping me up at night and keeping me near panic attack mode. I can no longer stuff things deep down, ignore, or avoid. But it really bothers me that the prevalent mood lately has been that of frustration and anger at my parents. I thought I was through parent-bashing. I thought I had come to an understanding about the “why” my parents treated me the way they did. It’s tricky when they are still very much alive and kicking, still delivering poor treatment, criticisms, value-judgments, and disappointment.
oh and yes, portia, there were kind people in my life, but often when i became too attached to someone as a child, they simply removed me from them. there was Mrs. Martha, my childhood neighborhood baby-sitter who watched a lot of the neighborhood kids. I LOVED her. We bonded as I sat between her legs having my hair braided. She loved to watch soap operas, and was a renowned cook, and she sometimes let us get away with visits to the “cookie monster” cookie jar between meals without punishment. I followed her around like a puppy and she didn’t seem to mind. I was about five to six and I remember having such a good feeling when I was at her house. I also had teachers, principals, and other members of the community rooting for me. They knew what was going on , even when I had no idea. My parents were despised by some, both as a couple and individually and I could sense the hostility as a child. But I could also sense a desire to help me. I believe now, they could sense my naivete and sheltered/isolated circumstances. Quite a few narrow escapes in my childhood, probably due to unwitting helpers, (heroes) showed me my way of escape. Thanks for reminding me of them.
lastly portia:
if not coping then what? Please expound on what you mean here.
Coping. I don’t want you to cope. I don’t want anyone to cope. Coping is not dealing, is not solving, is not changing. Coping is continuing in the same place and fighting the ‘you’ inside that wants to yell and scream at what was done to you. It’s valid to feel pain and rage and anger. Therapy is one of the best places to do it. If you can do it with one person who listens to you, believes you and doesn’t judge you but allows you to revisit that pain….that’s how the pain lessens and is replaced with better understanding and a more realistic set of emotions (realistic emotions for adult life).
Coping is about scabbing over the wounds, covering them. Talking about advancing to a more fulfilling adulthood is talking to prop up your sense of false self. That’s my interpretation. I’ve done it and continue to do it. When I get threatened, I become so darn ‘right’ about what’s right for me. I get very ‘adult’ when I’m threatened
Take care guys.
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Hiya Tiffany :D thanks for your reply. What are you going to study (if that’s not too intrusive)? You have things mapped out and planned and I admire that greatly.
Something jumped out at me from your words:
But it really bothers me that the prevalent mood lately has been that of frustration and anger at my parents. I thought I was through parent-bashing. I thought I had come to an understanding about the “why” my parents treated me the way they did.
Maybe you understand intellectually …. but the feelings associated with their cruelty and indifference towards you are still there? We don’t have a choice about loving our parents; or making ourselves bad and them good in some way?
It’s tricky when they are still very much alive and kicking, still delivering poor treatment, criticisms, value-judgments, and disappointment.
They might be delivering those things – do you want to receive them? Do you have to receive them, feel them, take them to heart or head? Or can you use your justified well of anger to really get them out of your head – so that you simply don’t care what they say or think?
That’s what I meant about not 'coping'. Nobody says you have to cope with it. Maybe you can get their crap (and it is theirs, not yours) out of your head and you don’t have to cope with it. You can get rid of it. It’s not yours. They did wrong. Not you. Make sense or not to you?
(((Tiffany)))
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i dont see problems only hurdles, there is always a way over them. i refuse to be beaten or consumed.
good for you, darky. you sound like a survivor? what is the source of your strength?
All four of my parents children are neurotic in some way and textbook examples of the abuse cycle. I believe my middle brother to be a Munchausen by proxy case by my mom. He manifests unexplainable symptoms that in his mind, keep him from his three children, (all under 3) who live two hours away in another state. He believes, with mom’s prodding, that they are all defective and slow and damaged. The twins were born, premature, I tell him to account for some of the delayed development. He’s convinced they are not smart, slow to walk, etc. and compares them to “fast” babies constantly.
My oldest brother is a homeless bipolar crack/heroin abuser and is not at all responsible for his 3 children by 3 mothers. My youngest sister seems like an introverted type of N, is extremely destructive, only dating drug abusing, controlling, violent, suicidal men.
And as for me, I’m not sure if it’s a full blown disorder, but I struggle with anxiety. I exhibited a flight response for the major part of my life, but since there’s nowhere to go anymore, I’ve been acting out, jittery, confrontational, restless. In the past two arguments to my husband, I did something I thought I’d never do. I threatened to separate from him. Not because of him, but because I felt worthless and stupid as a wife. I felt he should cut his losses and go, so I wouldn’t ruin his happiness. He was floored and hurt. I really need to stay grounded for my child and husband. We have a beautiful thing going here and I’d hate to lose them, it would be the stupidest thing, I’d ever done.
thanks for the input darky, how do you and your sister relate to one another. Are you close? Do you feel you can help her change her way of thinking? Do you feel you should/want to?
Tiff
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thanks brigid,
this is more of where I was going with the original question: examples of “innate behavior patterns” in the face of opposing environmental cues. From what I’ve read about DNA, scientists already believe that our genes program for some abstract characteristics like intellectual ability and the way we express anxiety. DNA/RNA is involved in a constant repairing and mutation process especially when we become infected with some viruses, (like flu) or cancer. This constant repair, I would imagine, could lead to some variations that could pass on to future generations.
With that in mind, Is it so outlandish to believe that DNA in it’s infinite complexity and beauty , holds the explanation for many behavioral attributes required for protection/survival. Genereations and generations of learning and surviving has encoded some things on our familial and collective genotype that HAS to hold answers for us. What if a likelihood to develop NPD could be located on the genome. It’s like having the map to the hidden treasure chest sitting in the bottom of a cluttered closet at home. Isn’t it worth knowing if we could help at least identify it, prepare for it, and know what we are dealing with in treating it? What if your parent had this “likelihood” identified as an infant or fetus and was “treated” as an infant/toddler. Treated with love, kindness, balance, coping skills, etc. Doesn’t that amaze you somehow? Or is this a pandora’s box? The movie Gattica now springs to mind.
One other note, for the sake of “this” argument, I’m not really putting forth the question regarding whether or not we are born evil per se. However, some do consider NPD to be a manifestation of evil, so I understand the reference, Portia. Also, some consider NPD to be nature’s way of exhibiting ENTROPY, a scientific concept similar to radioactive decay where a chemical or biological organism expresses self-destruction or decay or erosion due to the mere passage of time or to some exposure to a stressor. (for every action, there is an opposite and equal reaction). Am I cycling around age old arguments here? Might that explain why our loved ones with NPD seem to get WORSE with age? Can we merge science, social science and religion on this one guys?
I’ll take this moment to apologize if my anxiety-driven thoughts and musings make anyone her feel voiceless or frustrated. I don’t intend to harp on the “why” and the “what” forever. My curiosity is just getting the best of me on this matter. Thanks for the support and patience.
Have a great day,
Tiffany
Oh, I see new posts. I'll read and respond when I get a break today.
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Back again Tiffany, just going back a little, is that okay? Sorry to keep posting – I have a feeling you want to do the right thing and keep pace with replies? – well heck, I’m probably a real pain in the arse right now! I keep posting to you! Please don’t concern yourself with my stuff –take what helps, leave what doesn’t, and don’t worry about telling me either / or. Do as you wish okay? Is that okay, can you do that without feeling ‘bad’ in some way? Just asking. And prodding. And probably being very annoying. Tsk tsk.
Life is begun and “something” programs it to end.
No I wasn’t saying that. Sometimes I think we’re simply deficient and aren’t viable to live. Programmed mental disturbance in an otherwise healthy brain (e.g. yours) – I kinda doubt it. I sense maybe you worry that you’re not in control of your own mind? I’ve definitely felt like I’m not in control of mine. When I had terrible rages I’d describe them as being completely out of control (of my mind). Those rages really helped me though, they made me realise with a shock that I’d been protecting the images I have of my parents as still ‘loving’ and ‘okay really’ and ‘it’s not their fault’. All forms of denial I’m afraid for me.
Hey…
I should have expressed myself more clearly.
Nope! I should’ve asked what you meant. You’re free to express what you want Tiffany. Truly. Please don’t worry about it okay? Seriously. If I don’t understand, it’s my problem, not yours necessarily. Takes two to tango. Shall we dance? :D Sorry I’m getting light-hearted because I like talking to you. Yes I do, you’re an interesting and likeable person. I think so.
From my parents I received the message that dealing with painful things makes you worse, not better. I was programmed to think there was no use in drudging up, or enduring pain, best to avoid it completely. We lived an extremely sheltered and boring life.
Yeah! I'm quite mad reading this, not at you. Best repress any bad feelings eh? :x We wouldn’t want anyone thinking anyone in this family just might be feeling bad and sad and upset and angry about being abused?? Good Lord. They want to avoid pain because they were dishing it out. They didn’t want you telling them it hurt eh? Or telling anyone else? Sorry Tiffany. Your folks treated you abominably. I’m angry on your behalf. They brainwashed you to think pain was necessary and you had to shut up and keep feeling it? That’s evil. Evil behaviour.
I’m so glad you had Mrs Martha to show you that you are lovable without being super-polite or over respectful or all of that superficial pap. It’s your heart that counts and you have a great heart.
I’ll stop now. Take care. I talk too much I know.
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Tiffany......okay I have an admission to make. I’m hogging your thread Tiffany and possibly making you anxious because I’m posting wayyyy too much? I hope not. I’m yakking coz you are interesting and because I want to. I’m just a board embarrassment. Yes I am! And I don’t mind - unless you do. If you want me to stop, I will, okay? But before I really go (and get that washing out of the machine)… there’s a couple more thoughts….
I exhibited a flight response for the major part of my life, but since there’s nowhere to go anymore, I’ve been acting out, jittery, confrontational, restless.
I hope you’ll stay and talk as much as you want to or not as you wish. Confrontational is okay with me. Want to talk about acting out? About what you mean? If not no worries.
I’ll take this moment to apologize if my anxiety-driven thoughts and musings make anyone her feel voiceless or frustrated.
I don’t feel that your thoughts are anxiety-driven, but if you do, that’s okay. They don’t sound it, to me. You sound cogent and reasonable and reasoning to me. I’m definitely not voiceless or frustrated by anything you say. And what others feel or think is about them yes? It’s not necessarily as a direct result of what you say? You are not responsible for other people’s reactions…….
I don’t intend to harp on the “why” and the “what” forever. My curiosity is just getting the best of me on this matter.
I love your curiosity. I think curiosity is a huge positive LIFE FORCE :D. I bet you were punished or deprived of using your curiosity as a child? Feeling bad for asking your Dad to explain the Bible? Feeling bad for wanting knowledge? I did. I was told off for wanting to know stuff.
It’s great to be curious. And to talk about anything you want to talk about. You’re allowed here. I think. Okay time for that washing. bye for now
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brigid,
i think adoptive parents are some of the most special folks alive! what a gift to give a child and i’m sure you think your daughter was the gift. My husband’s family has several adopted children in it and it’s a beautiful thing to imagine how much more fulfilling and enjoyable their lives have become as a result of being removed from adverse situations. i'm sure your daughter is a beautiful reflection of your parenting.
also, in reference to where do serial killers come from, there is a medical test called a functional MRI. The person’s brain is connected to an MRI and in real time, they are presented various stimuli. The test measures response, (blood supply to a specific area of the brain), as the person is being asked questions, shown images, presented with smells, etc. Maybe this kind of test could tell us about the “hard wiring” of psychopaths. Maybe a "normal" subject would fire a response the "pleasure centers" of his brain when exposed to a conventionally pleasurable stimulus like a bunny or a happy face. Perhaps, however, given the same stimulus, the psychopath, fires a response to the "fight or flight" areas on the brain. We could have a "crossed wires" situation here, where the psychopath, simply does not "feel" positive thoughts as they relate to positive stimuli. It would certainly give us a little more functional info to add to what structural inconsistencies we’d find on the preserved brain after death. maybe we could now be using it on the BTK killer, or Scott Peterson, or even OJ Simpson, (just kidding), :) (not really) :?
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When I started to realise my stuff I found it overwhelming and disorienting. I felt like the world I knew was shifting and becoming a different place. I still feel like that sometimes. I didn’t see it as my spirit breaking though; not sure I had a spirit in the first place. I was just a numbed out survivor who didn’t feel much. That spirit you mention breaking……how do you see that? I mean, what does it mean to you, your spirit breaking?
portia
when i speak of my/a/your spirit, I believe it conveys the very ESSENCE of a being, (yes, essence, kind of like the tiny, expensive, condensed, aromatherapy oils you can buy at The Body Shop), it’s that which makes you YOU. those attributes/characteristics uniquely associated with you and you alone. spirit enlivens us. i read somewhere that the root word in “spirit” is the same as the root for “inspire.” which means “to breathe in.” when one is inspired to create or do something, they can generally be speaking of being overcome with a feeling or idea in a flash or from out of nowhere. (personally, i believe all inspiration is from God). i believe energy (creative) has been transferred to them in that “flash” of inspiration and the being has an opportunity to (re)-act upon it.
when people speak of ghosts as being “spirits” , i believe they are trying to say they sense the personality of the subject who died, whether it be a sweet one or a malevolent one, in the absence of his body. and when people talk about alcohol and liquor being “spirits,” i believe they are referring to the change in one’s personality when they are under the influence of these mood alterers. i imagine one’s spirit, a spirit, The Spirit, to each be described as the personality of a being. in a metaphysical sense, “spirit” never dies, it, like energy it is just translated from one individual (or realm) to another. spirit transcends the physical death of the being. And sure, you have a spirit, portia, and i enjoy sensing it through your written words.
when i said i thought my spirit was breaking as “i started to realize my stuff” (borrowing your words, here, portia. STUFF really sums up what all this is, doesn’t it :) it was like i was “cracking under the pressure” or just plain “going crazy.” at my worse point, i thought i was descending into some type of personality disorder like paranoia, or general anxiety disorder, or even narcissism. i wasn’t at my best in any way. i was a shell of myself. i was not interested in things i used to love. some people are reading and thinking, oh, she was just clinically depressed. and it’s true, as i wasn’t eating or sleeping or functioning well, (for about 7 intense days, this lasted, as i was recalling all of these horrific scenes from my childhood and judging them with my now adult eyes). prior to this, i had locked those memories and bad thoughts deeply away in my head somewhere and had simply “forgotten” them for 10 years. During this time, I prayed a lot. I would pray, journal, and as I wrote, more things would come to my remembrance.
worried about my health, i felt that i would probably “need” to change my personality in some way, in order to protect myself in the future. some part of me was trying to “break” during that time, I was watching ROME on HBO and I remember the commanding officer shouting to the soldier’s “Bend if you must, but do not Break!!!” as the two armies bludgeoned one another with swords.) i reflected on that statement many times, trying to maintain sanity during the “rough period.”
but to the better part of me, “breaking” means succumbing or death. so i guess, during that time, i thought i might suffer the death of my spirit. i just thought of something, i was reading, People of the Lie, I think it was, and Peck likened narcissism to the pervasive acts of intentionally killing “spirit,” (undetected and unchallenged, of course) like serial killers, there is probably some maniacal, devious, component to them that enjoys the “cover-up”, but they get caught because of their conflicting grandiose desire to take the credit for what they were able to get away with for so long. less “physically” murderous Ns, (the ones who could not tolerate prison or being arrested or otherwise corrected by the Law), exact their wrath on what really gives us life, our spirits. and they will attack any vulnerable prey, hence the assault on children, or the talented, or anyone with a positive light shining on them. Ns are keen to who the innocents are and they like to do the most damage when others aren’t suspecting. and they hurt the one’s they should love the most of all.
part of the releasing some of my anger has left me doggedly determined to foil the efforts and attempts of the Ns in my life to kill my spirit, if that was the intention, anyway. Living an abundant life is probably the best way for me to avenge my inner child. (but vengeance is not mine, actually, it’s God’s).
also portia, i’m picking up a BS in Nursing in a fabulous new 18 month program they have here at an awesome in-state institution only 8 blocks from my home. I followed a pre-med curriculum in undergrad (so i just happened to have had the prerequisite courses needed to enter), I should have a challenging but fun time picking up this degree which is needed to address the nursing shortage within my small business. i’m somewhat collecting degrees as i have a W I D E range of interests. the jack of many trades, master of none. don’t need to be a master though. i really love learning new things. it calms, organizes me. i’m at my best when i have a million things to do.
btw, thanks, portia for the book tip and here are some books i’m reading, that have helped in some way, lately. fair warning, it’s eclectic:
Children of the Self-Absorbed by Brown (New Harbinger)
Create Every Day (Compendium) (a journal with quotes about creativity)
Bible Promises for You
The New Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible by Strong (Nelson)
Dream Dictionary by Crisp (Wings Books) (for my vivid, lucid dreams)
The Book of Dream Symbols by Vollmar (Main Street)
Pisces 2006 Super Horoscope (Berkley)
People of the Lie by Peck (Simon and Shuster)
Are you psychic? How to tap int the hidden powers of your mind. (Mini Mags Group)
don’t kiss them good-bye by DuBois (FIreside)
Massage: simple solutions for everyday stresses by Roseberry (The Body Shop)
Total Immersion: The Revolutionary Way to Swim better, faster, and easier.” by Laughlin and Delves (Fireside) (for my former water phobia)
The Yoga Book by Sturgess (Watkins)
Overcoming Anxiety for Dummies by Elliot and Smith, (Wiley)
Dr. Andrew Weil’s 2005 self-healing: creating optimum health for your body and soul.
my next reads are: (anyone read these? have they been helpful?)
blink: the power of thinking without thinking by Gladwell (little, brown)
The Art of War by Sun Tzu and Cleary (Shambhala)
take care,
tiff
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Hi everyone:
Wow! What an awe inspiring thread you got going here Tiff! There is so much here that I could read over and over and learn a thing or two or a hundred from!
I want to say...I'm so very sorry for all you have suffered and I totally agree that you sure seem like one sound, sane, loving individual, like a wonderful mother with a bountiful spirit and an inner strength that sings out in the face of calamity. Hats off to you Tiff!! You've more than survived! You're precious and blooming!
These words, that I think Jac wrote, brought tears to my eyes:
in order for the soul to grow, it must be challenged to the very depths of it's core.
Makes me want to cry out: "Have the depths of the core been challenged enough yet? Please say yes!!"
Just feeling sorry for myself a little there. I do get that this is a large probability and that I am not in charge, never will be, of how much my soul will be challenged to grow. I would like a break, though, before the next growth spurt, if at all possible. I should ask for that maybe?
(sorry if I got the person's name wrong who posted that. I think it was back on page one that I clicked and copied but held onto it until somewhere deep into page 2, where I had to find a place to save it, because I found the next thing I wanted to click and copy...and by then...I'd half forgotten who posted...my poor brain...I feel sorry for it!!) :D
I'm not going to make this a long one as I've done enough blabbing here today but something did jump out...right off the pages....into my eyeballs.....up the neuropathways......sending a charge somewhere and sparking some thoughts--questions really:
Tiff wrote:
there were kind people in my life, but often when i became too attached to someone as a child, they simply removed me from them.
and also:
In the past two arguments to my husband, I did something I thought I’d never do. I threatened to separate from him. Not because of him, but because I felt worthless and stupid as a wife. I felt he should cut his losses and go, so I wouldn’t ruin his happiness. He was floored and hurt.
Tiff, could these events be related? Are you feeling attached to someone again, and anticipating (even subconsciously) that you will simply be removed from him?
Could you be (unconsciously even) pulling the old: I'll remove myself before he gets removed from me thingy?? Or reliving what happened to you back then......now??
Would it hurt less that way? Would you have more control over the pain this way? Rather than live with the constant (subconscious even) anxiety of waiting for you to be removed......could this be a way of getting it over with quicker??
Absolutely no need to respond if you don't feel like it. It's just fodder for you to chew on eh?
((((((((((((((((((Tiff))))))))))))))))) You deserve many warm hugs for all you've endured. God bless you.
:D Sela
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Oh sure, Sela, I was struggling with that very childhood connection you mention as I was going through that awful time. My thoughts were that I was wasting his time, and screwing up his life, and I was also losing touch with reality a little, and feeling a little, okay, very, paranoid during that time. For a moment, I thought he, like every man before him, was probably "pulling the wool over my eyes" and that I should protect myself, even in the face of no wrong-doing.
Thank God, my husband is a loving, compassionate, empathic soul. He could see the difference in me and wanted me to get some help. He's strong, but I know the idea of me "up and leaving" was hurtful to him. We're still talking about what we were both feeling when I said those things. He won't let me just bail out. He also knew of my history of a flight response. My former two serious relationships ended with me saying, "hey, you know what, i don't know, but i've gotta go." In those relationships, I had hardcore evidence that the men meant no good for me and I was bailing. This time around, my hubby and I could sense that I was trying to regress and revert to old, ineffective patterns and thank God we came through that. I made a vow to myself never to put him in that position, where he doubts where he stands with me. I want him to feel as safe with me as I am with him.
take care, sela and others.
tiff
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Hi Tiff:
I'm glad you were able to make that connection (with why you were fleeing relationships) and especially in regard to the way you were feeling about yourself and your husband. So glad you have a loving, compassionate, empathic soul of a hubby!! That is wonderful to hear!
I felt worthless and stupid as a wife. I felt he should cut his losses and go, so I wouldn’t ruin his happiness.
How are you doing with these feelings? (This probably seems like it should be obvious but I'm asking anyway and ofcourse, only answer if you want to.)
part of the releasing some of my anger has left me doggedly determined to foil the efforts and attempts of the Ns in my life to kill my spirit, if that was the intention, anyway. Living an abundant life is probably the best way for me to avenge my inner child.
I love this attitude!! Go for it Tiff!! I like your choice!
(but vengeance is not mine, actually, it’s God’s).
Might be a different type vengeance though eh? Who knows? Living a rich life (and I assume you mean full of good, wholesome treasures, not in a monetary sense) .....is a fine choice, if you ask me and I doubt God will consider it otherwise.
Isn't it when people are driven by rage and they destroy, deplete and deprive the world of their's and other's good treasures that is really a sign of that inner child seeking revenge? I think you're on the right track Tiff.
Sela
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Sela,
How are you doing with these feelings?
These days, I'm feeling really positive. My glass is feeling half-full all around. Getting my anxiety under control is key, because under everyday circumstances, I feel I'm doing a pretty decent job of being a wife. It's when I was feeling stress/pressure/criticism by my mother particularly, that I acted out towards my husband. I'm just glad he knows my heart, even when I'm "trippin' out." Interestingly, he sees some of the things he does/doesn't do that escalate tensions, and is trying out new ways to react to my anxiety, for the sake of more smooth communication, so it's gonna be great for us, I can tell!
:)
Take care my friends and thanks for all the responses!