Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: reallyME on March 01, 2006, 01:22:17 PM
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Hello
Does anyone have any acquaintences that are/were either a minister's son or daughter that ended up being narcissistic because of the way they were raised? If so, I'd love to hear your story/situation either here or in email.
reallyME
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My mother was a fundamentalist evangelist's oldest child (of 7). He abused his daughters...she maintains he tried it only once with her but she stopped him immediately ("Stop it, stop it or I'll tell Mother")--and she says he did stop. Her narrative of it is that she thus protected her sisters, but my cousin told me that her mother, my mother's middle sister, was regularly molested by him, spent her adult life clinically depressed and even institutionalized for it. So I think my mother is still in profound denial about it.
One weird side effect (she is very high on the narcissistic curve, but not physically abusive, ever--very proper and tries to be a "good Christian"--it's sincere.). She has had very little contact with her sisters over the years, and basically is hyper-critical of women. I feel as though she may have in a sad strange way been jealous of her sister. My mother was the eldest and then came six other children to compete for his attention. She also described him writhing in the parlor on his knees, tormented by guilt. And her mother did know about it. I can't imagine how awful it was...but I do remember him as very charismatic and interested in me. I also remember my parents leaving my brother and me with my grandfather as a babysitter one evening when he came to visit. Nothing happened, but good grief.
She did not tell me about any of this my whole life. My cousin did about 10 years ago. My main reaction was relief, because it made sense out of so many of her behaviors...the hypercontrolling boundary invading style of mothering, her anxious competition with me for my dad's attention...etc. I just wish I'd known about it many years earlier.
So even though I grew up in a mainstream Protestant church, there was a hysteria and fearful kind of toxic atmosphere about God and religion that I absorbed, mostly through my mother's personality.
Don't know if that tale is of any help, reallyME. Would be glad to hear yours though. I know "PKs" (preachers' kids) have an extra load to carry.
Hopalong
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well, it's not MY tale...it's regarding another situation with other people. In a nutshell, one of the spiritual leaders in my life whom I met online, I finally met in person too. This lady turned out to be very image-driven and still pretty much is. She doesn't do well with interpersonal relationships and feels she can't be both a leader and a friend at the same time. She has a real hard time balancing more than one close relationship at a time as well, because women tend to compete for her attention. I love her dearly, but she has some real problems that she is in denial about, being that she knows popular singing groups, has connections and has money and success in what she does.
ReallyME
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My N mom is a preacher's kid. I believe it is the reason she is so out of control.
Her father was very abusive emotionally, mentally and physically a few times. Never sexually though.
He constantly put her down, her hair, her dress, her smile, her this, her that.....she relives it every minute of every day. She does the same to me, but she calls it "honesty". I have tried to talk her into therapy a million times, she says she does not need it.
He drank, smoked on alot of occassions and cussed up a storm but swore her to secrecy. Told her that she would ruin his career and witness. She had to keep the secrets. The congregation saw one person...they got and saw a totally different one. No one would have ever guessed. She hated him.
Her mother was cold and distant. Had NO friends. She never told the children that she loved them. I think my grandfather had beaten her down to a pulp by the time she was in her 30's. She thinks that she is above everyone else. Everyone else is messed up, except her or her family.
Mom does not talk with her siblings at all (brother and sister). They all avoid each other. Her dad has died but her mother lives in her town. She has not spoken to her in about 3 years.
My mom is very "high" on herself. She compliments herself about her clothes, money and jewlery. She is convinced that everyone looks up to her. Very boastful. She also believes that she is always right.
She decided to not have the family that she was brought up in. So, we became her perfect family. She made me in the image of her perfect self. I was to make up for all that she never had.
She has a very distant relationship with God. She faithfully attends church but won't let him past her hard brick walls for a minute.
Living in the glass bowl is a cruel place to grow up......
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Hi. Thanks for sharing about your n mother.
I was wondering if she has any lady friends and have they ever come over to visit or stay with you all? If so, how were they treated? ReallyME
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When I first came to the US almost 6 years ago I was totally shocked at right-wing religion and the depth of Protestant Puritanism affecting local and national government as well as the realm of personal life and worship.
Much of Europe grows increasingly secular, so the rise of the religious right ( in all sectors ) was somewhat removed.
However as I read more and the culture-shock wore off I realised it was just an example of any strangers lack of understanding of any culture or phenomenon they don't personally subscribe to.
Whether I agree with it or not- it is a way of life chosen by thousands of people and I owe it respect, Islamic or Christian fundamentalism, Judaism, yes, even Unitarian Universalism or Mormonism :)
Leo Pfeffer who wrote considerably on separation of church and state cautioned:
"...if you believe in it, it is a religion or perhaps 'the' religion;
and if you do not care one way or another about it, it is a sect;
but if you fear and hate it, it is a cult."
Now I am beginning to see the social constructiveness and cohesion from what I guess to my values are extremist religions.
HOWEVER
I do not miss a heartbeat in defining the following practices as institutional or personal abuse of any kind of authority or relationship including Divine Authority whatever setting or context or group or ideals:
*sexual, physical or emotional abuse
*contravening the International Declaration of Human Rights 1948***
*establishing a cult- by which I mean a group with inflexible beliefs and values where members must correspond unequivically to certain behaviours and goals, where there is an ethos not of human growth and development but of complete conformity, invoking God or the favour of the group's leader as a method of control, and a pressure to commit totally to the whole movement or be banished and have no further contact ( even with family or close friend members )
*deceit or professional malpractice
*hypocrisy ( eg. during Communism when leaders had access to luxuries which the people were educated were wrong )
*offering simple or instant solutions to massive problems, taking advantage of people's vulnerable need to resolve their issues. I see this every day with loan companies, weight loss creams, get rich schemes, how-to quick-fix books.
THE IMPORTANT THING TO REMEMBER, when emotions are running high
Robert Frost quote:
The only way round is through.
***Article 1.
All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Article 2.
Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status. Furthermore, no distinction shall be made on the basis of the political, jurisdictional or international status of the country or territory to which a person belongs, whether it be independent, trust, non-self-governing or under any other limitation of sovereignty.
Article 3.
Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person.
Article 4.
No one shall be held in slavery or servitude; slavery and the slave trade shall be prohibited in all their forms.
Article 5.
No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.
Article 6.
Everyone has the right to recognition everywhere as a person before the law.
Article 7.
All are equal before the law and are entitled without any discrimination to equal protection of the law. All are entitled to equal protection against any discrimination in violation of this Declaration and against any incitement to such discrimination.
Article 8.
Everyone has the right to an effective remedy by the competent national tribunals for acts violating the fundamental rights granted him by the constitution or by law.
Article 9.
No one shall be subjected to arbitrary arrest, detention or exile.
Article 10.
Everyone is entitled in full equality to a fair and public hearing by an independent and impartial tribunal, in the determination of his rights and obligations and of any criminal charge against him.
Article 11.
(1) Everyone charged with a penal offence has the right to be presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law in a public trial at which he has had all the guarantees necessary for his defence.
(2) No one shall be held guilty of any penal offence on account of any act or omission which did not constitute a penal offence, under national or international law, at the time when it was committed. Nor shall a heavier penalty be imposed than the one that was applicable at the time the penal offence was committed.
Article 12.
No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence, nor to attacks upon his honour and reputation. Everyone has the right to the protection of the law against such interference or attacks.
Article 13.
(1) Everyone has the right to freedom of movement and residence within the borders of each state.
(2) Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country.
Article 14.
(1) Everyone has the right to seek and to enjoy in other countries asylum from persecution.
(2) This right may not be invoked in the case of prosecutions genuinely arising from non-political crimes or from acts contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations.
Article 15.
(1) Everyone has the right to a nationality.
(2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his nationality nor denied the right to change his nationality.
Article 16.
(1) Men and women of full age, without any limitation due to race, nationality or religion, have the right to marry and to found a family. They are entitled to equal rights as to marriage, during marriage and at its dissolution.
(2) Marriage shall be entered into only with the free and full consent of the intending spouses.
(3) The family is the natural and fundamental group unit of society and is entitled to protection by society and the State.
Article 17.
(1) Everyone has the right to own property alone as well as in association with others.
(2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his property.
Article 18.
Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.
Article 19.
Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.
Article 20.
(1) Everyone has the right to freedom of peaceful assembly and association.
(2) No one may be compelled to belong to an association.
Article 21.
(1) Everyone has the right to take part in the government of his country, directly or through freely chosen representatives.
(2) Everyone has the right of equal access to public service in his country.
(3) The will of the people shall be the basis of the authority of government; this will shall be expressed in periodic and genuine elections which shall be by universal and equal suffrage and shall be held by secret vote or by equivalent free voting procedures.
Article 22.
Everyone, as a member of society, has the right to social security and is entitled to realization, through national effort and international co-operation and in accordance with the organization and resources of each State, of the economic, social and cultural rights indispensable for his dignity and the free development of his personality.
Article 23.
(1) Everyone has the right to work, to free choice of employment, to just and favourable conditions of work and to protection against unemployment.
(2) Everyone, without any discrimination, has the right to equal pay for equal work.
(3) Everyone who works has the right to just and favourable remuneration ensuring for himself and his family an existence worthy of human dignity, and supplemented, if necessary, by other means of social protection.
(4) Everyone has the right to form and to join trade unions for the protection of his interests.
Article 24.
Everyone has the right to rest and leisure, including reasonable limitation of working hours and periodic holidays with pay.
Article 25.
(1) Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.
(2) Motherhood and childhood are entitled to special care and assistance. All children, whether born in or out of wedlock, shall enjoy the same social protection.
Article 26.
(1) Everyone has the right to education. Education shall be free, at least in the elementary and fundamental stages. Elementary education shall be compulsory. Technical and professional education shall be made generally available and higher education shall be equally accessible to all on the basis of merit.
(2) Education shall be directed to the full development of the human personality and to the strengthening of respect for human rights and fundamental freedoms. It shall promote understanding, tolerance and friendship among all nations, racial or religious groups, and shall further the activities of the United Nations for the maintenance of peace.
(3) Parents have a prior right to choose the kind of education that shall be given to their children.
Article 27.
(1) Everyone has the right freely to participate in the cultural life of the community, to enjoy the arts and to share in scientific advancement and its benefits.
(2) Everyone has the right to the protection of the moral and material interests resulting from any scientific, literary or artistic production of which he is the author.
Article 28.
Everyone is entitled to a social and international order in which the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration can be fully realized.
Article 29.
(1) Everyone has duties to the community in which alone the free and full development of his personality is possible.
(2) In the exercise of his rights and freedoms, everyone shall be subject only to such limitations as are determined by law solely for the purpose of securing due recognition and respect for the rights and freedoms of others and of meeting the just requirements of morality, public order and the general welfare in a democratic society.
(3) These rights and freedoms may in no case be exercised contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations.
Article 30.
Nothing in this Declaration may be interpreted as implying for any State, group or person any right to engage in any activity or to perform any act aimed at the destruction of any of the rights and freedoms set forth herein.
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ReallyMe,
She has friends but not close friends. She only makes friends with those who "need" her or her money. She is above them. She always finds fault with a friend if they get a little close. But I also think they get tired of her as well.
We do not live together. She does have one friend who comes and spends the weekend from time to time. She always says that she enjoys the company (she lives alone). When I have seen them together she laughs and acts as if they are the best of friends. But this friend has a nightmare of a marriage and I often wonder if she does not come to mom's to take a breathier.
HTH....
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healme said: She has friends but not close friends. She only makes friends with those who "need" her or her money. She is above them. She always finds fault with a friend if they get a little close. But I also think they get tired of her as well.
Yes this sounds familiar for sure. In my case it was pretty much the same, although I'm still friends with the person and it's not because I need her money or anything else anymore. It's because I care about her and I believe that God can and will change her heart eventually.
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HealMe, I recognize this familiar description:
My mom is very "high" on herself. She compliments herself about her clothes, money and jewlery. She is convinced that everyone looks up to her. Very boastful. She also believes that she is always right.
I was always amazed at NMom's ability to brag on and ON (repeating compliments others give her at exhausting length, is her vehicle) and I also found this with Nboyfirends. The boasting and the smugness. Igghhh.
Hops
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HOPS,
Can I ever related! It drives me crazy at her need to keep repeating the compliments! My brother and I make fun of her behind her back.
She is really struggling right now emotionally. She is on disability due to a back injury. She lives by herself. She has NO audience (workplace) to compliment her and stroke her. She has not said it yet, but she is put out with me because I am not soothing and "feeding" her. For the first time in my life, I am not going to do it.
I know it is about to get ugly..........you guys don't leave me. I am brand new at this!
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Really ME,
As a person who God has changed, molded and set free from other junk in my life....I believe God can do that for my Nmom. However, part of my sadness right now is the knowledge that she does not think she has a problem (no matter how many loving and kind conversations we have had about her longtime issues). In fact, I think she has a crazy "love" with her issues.
Due to signing up for Christian counseling recently, I am now beginning to realize that I am a parentified child and she has the majority of the N traits. What a revelation for me! My whole life, I have been made in HER image and not God's. (You know, SHE is so great, why not make a clone of herself, right?).
Do I think she does this on purpose? No. But for whatever the reasons, I am left with the junk. I am sufferring. And I have sufferred for a long time. What does she say about my depression and ever present sadness.........."Don't know what your problem is? You are fine. You had and have it so much better than anyone else. Just get over it!"
Yes, I believe with God anything is possible....but that is in her "yard"...not mine. She has to make the choice and ask HIM for help. I am not responsible for her anymore. At least, I am trying not to be.
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HealMe,
This sounds like it's just about the inconvenience to her of your not being perky and energetic:
What does she say about my depression and ever present sadness.........."Don't know what your problem is? You are fine. You had and have it so much better than anyone else. Just get over it!"
I can relate. I would come home almost daily with severe back pain. NMom would sometimes say dutifully, how are you? I'd say, I'm really in pain. She'd say, your back always hurts (somewhat impatiently). Normally, I'd come in the door and she'd just start talking about herself before I had a chance to take off my coat or breathe one relaxed breath.
For NMothers, it is an inconvenience for the child to be depressed or ill. Because they are the dazzlign child who wants to be the eternal golden toddler, wobbing in a circle of self-infatuation, while everyone around them coos in wonder.
It is sad. But it is reality.
I am very grateful to have learned about Narcissism. It's taken me a couple years since first discovering the concept. But after the shock, anger, grief...all that (I believe it is a death--the death of your dream of a nurturing mother)--I truly have come to a place of acceptance. And following that, is gratitude, simply because I no longer feel crazy or confused.
That is a relief that will last me the rest of my life. You'll work your way through these places and come out with greater strength and solidity in your own self. Boundary practice, meanwhile, is never a waste of time.
You have company here, don't despair.
Hopalong
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Here's an interesting twist on this N-mother stuff
My actual mother, I'm not sure if she was an N or not, but I do have a lady in my life who prayed for years for me to realize she was to be my spiritual mom. At first, the relationship was very N-like. When she needed something, I was expected to be there to comfort and help...she had some physical disorders, but when I was going through some of my own insecurities, she couldn't be there for me, and instead talked about herself and whether people noticed her dancing, what they thought of her spiritual message she gave, etc. Since she got on meds though, it's been soooooooooo much better.
I tried in vain for months to convince her that she needed meds and she'd get angry with me. Finally, she got so depressed that she couldn't function and she went to her beloved doctor who is "next to God" in her eyes. HE put her on a med and voila, new spiritual mom and it's been WONDERFUL, although she isn't around as much because she feels so good that she makes herself available to everyone under the sun now. That's ok, I'd rather have that than all the constant complaints, negativity and the one-sided nurture expectations...MY SIDE.
ReallyME
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*establishing a cult- by which I mean a group with inflexible beliefs and values where members must correspond unequivically to certain behaviours and goals, where there is an ethos not of human growth and development but of complete conformity, invoking God or the favour of the group's leader as a method of control, and a pressure to commit totally to the whole movement or be banished and have no further contact ( even with family or close friend members )
Sounds like UC Berkeley. :P
mud
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What kind of med reallyME?
Mine takes anti-depressants and it does not help. She is not depressed but she is still in her own world.
heal me
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Hopalong,
Thanks for the encouragement. In someways, it feels like a relief but in others, it feels hopeless. It helps that I live 4 hours away from her. But when she comes to visit.....OH My Word....It is a long recovery! I think I have found a wonderful counselor.
It is odd to me that mom will call and if she detects that I am a little blue (although, I try to not let her know or sometimes, I just don't answer the phone), she will act like she cares. She will listen and give advice. I get sucked into she really cares about me and it is okay to trust her. But then a couple weeks later, she slams me again.
But she hates it when I am struggling. I don't know if it is because she feels guilty for my sadness or because she really believes that I should be "over it" by now. But I am still trying to figure out what "it" is. I have no clue.
healme
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healme, my Mom is on Straterra.
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I have heard of this med for ADD/ADHD. Is this also for N behavior?
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I wish there were a pill for N behavior!
(Maybe some of us might've spiked a lot of Ns' cocoa by now.....)
I guess the only "cure" isn't for an N, but for us...learning to set boundaries.
It's such a challenge to do it consistently and with dignity.
Sigghh,
Hops
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Hop,
The experts do claim that some meds can help N's but basically I tend to agree with you, that it's up to the victims of the N to really just set the boundaries and stick to them. If possible, get away from the N, if not, learn how they operate, learn that they can't give you what is not in them to give, go out and make some friends to support you, join a support group, get a hobby, ANYTHING, but let another controlling person DEFINE you.
ReallyME
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Hello ReallyME and all,
I've been off the board for a while and decided to drop in. Couldn't resist this topic as I am a PK as well as N survivor.
Ndad was a minister and is as N as they come. I didn't know this when I was young because the minister image is tailor made for keeping kids in line. Shoot, I didn't know what was up except that my dad is always right!
I see no causal link between being a minister and the Nness of us kids. I see a link in Ns being attracted to the occupation of God's mouthpiece. Ns in any occupation are bound to breed more Ns (like my brother). It is very important to be correct. There was a high amount of rigidity in my family. I googled preachers kids once and found a couple of interesting articles on when pastors' families turn out alright. that is when the pastors don't expect their families to be perfect but to be yet another example of how to deal with human problems in a Christian loving way. Keyword: loving. The most bitter PKs come from the hypocritical N house.
I don't want to burst anyone's God bubble, but Ns don't change. Ever. It's hardwired. It would be more fruitful to focus on one's own approach or need to be with this person. The hardest lesson I ever learned was thanks to my N/BPD SIL and that is I can only change myself. I stopped expecting her to change and got the h*ll of out dodge. Since then, I've been able to see my own father in a more clear-eyed way and set boundaries like crazy when he insists his needs are the most important, no, the only needs in town.
Hope this helps! MP
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MP
I have a couple of comments on your post
First of all, you mention that N's breed N's. Does this make you also an N?
Secondly, you said that N's NEVER CHANGE, which, if you read my posts, I will vehemently disagree with. If you are an N and you have gotten "out of dodge" as you say, and are seeing things so clearly, does that not denote change in "you"?
~ReallyME
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ReallyMe,
You haven't known/read MP...she's about as far from N as they come!
I'm guessing MP meant Ns often breed Ns...(there's nothing inevitable about an N parent producing only N children. Some of the kids recoil from what they sense is in an N parent, without even knowing a name for it, and grow up very different.)
MP, I think this is often true in "healing" professions as well: a link in Ns being attracted to the occupation of God's mouthpiece...[or God's hand, in the case of some surgeons].
When it comes to human interaction, I really don't want much to do with any Ns. But I'd take a fine N surgeon any day if I needed a difficult operation! Hmmm. That's kind of funny...we haven't ad a thread on the areas of life in which Ns really do contribute to the betterment of the world (apart from their families, of course).
Off to work, where I'm always frustrated by not being able to post, but I do pop in and read when I can!
Happy Monday (oxymoron) everyone,
Hops
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Incidentally, N's can give some rather useful information to people too...at least in my case they have.
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Hey hoppy, good to hear from you! :) I agree with your comment about healing professions. Esp. given the competitiveness of the training they have to endure, in the case of MDs, and given the balance of power/control in the role of therapist.
ReallyME, just to let you know where I am coming from, there's an article found on www.operationdoubles.com. There is a section of that website called What Makes A Narcissist Tick. In that section, there is an article called The Making of a Narcissist. What I am saying is, if we find an N it is likely we will find another N relative nearby. That doesn't make the entire family N. I have Ns for a parent and a sibling. There was barely room in the house for both of them. I don't think I am a narcissist or I would not be looking into it. But I understand that I just popped in out of nowhere and you have no point of reference on my experience.
We'll have to agree to disagree about whether or not Ns can "change". The biggest milestone of MY life was realizing, in my experience, that they don't. I stopped hoping that they would and changed my outlook considerably. It has been really freeing for me as a (I think) nonN (unN?).
This is my response to your request to hear from PKs. Sorry if I came on rather strong but my PKness is a big button for me. Thanks for your interest. MP