Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: write on March 16, 2006, 03:33:18 AM
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I don't see how I can continue to post here when people are posturing such nonsense, but maybe if I can share with you a little of what it's like to live with a mental illness which causes psychosis you will appreciate what I have to say.
Imagine you are very busy, very active, starting off pretty well and healthy. You maybe take on a bit too much, overreact a bit. Suddenly overreach into mood swings and not quite knowing what is happening, you withdraw a little. Your confidence is shaken but your energy increases. The world gets louder, brighter, faster...then slows down and you can't get into it. Everything should be moving at a different pace.
People speak too slowly, their words fall off at the end, their expressions are meaningless.
Background noises intervene. I was pursued, I was in trouble.
I heard wolves.
I heard wolves clear as anything, wept for two days as my family and doctors declared me delusional and made plans for my treatment and I couldn't make them hear ME.
Until they did hear.
A neighbour dog had puppies and the stupid owners locked them all in the garage.
I heard wolves- the people around me heard me- the real sound was right there for anyone without preconceptions to interpret, a bunch of abandonned dogs.
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When I was first married a neighbour came to me and told me she was a witch. She was clearly having a psychotic episode, and though I had no knowledge of psychiatry or experience of social work I told her to meet me for dinner. I had no idea what to o, only a vague notion i should be kind.
We ate and she told me her husband had another woman and told her it was her fault and she brought 'the trouble' on their household etc. Her teenage daughter had taken to manipulating her by calling her 'witch'.
After dinner she turned to me and asked if she was a witch, if she was possessed.
I had no knowledge of religious matters or psychiatry back then. But I still consider it the best work in the field I did.
I told her that she was NOT a witch, that she was having some psychological problems and that talking to her doctor would help. I told her she was stressed beyond belief.
And I told her- there are no witches.
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There are no wolves.
There are no witches.
Thre are no devils or demons.
You people who can believe in such phenomena have a luxury which the mentally ill do not.
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There are people. Who seem able to wreak as much havoc as they care on the world.
And there is Spirit.
Trust in Spirit.
There are no devils, no demons. Unless you let someone free with a selfish, judgemental or wicked imagination....
"Peace I leave with you. My peace I give to you; not as the world gives, give I to you. Don't let your heart be troubled, neither let it be fearful"
Amen
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(((((((((Write)))))))))
Just want to offer a big hug. I feel you're becoming upset. I'm not upset. I'm still here. You can post, you just have done. I'd not like it if you didn't post.
Are you expecting some negative reactions to your post? I think you might get some. Be prepared! You posted and there will be consequences but we'll survive, nobody dies here. 8)
Just a thought about this:
You people who can believe in such phenomena have a luxury which the mentally ill do not.
I've said it before....being mentally healthy is very difficult to define. Sanity is a tricky concept. When i came here I wasn't exactly balanced and healthy (am I now? :shock: I wonder)...so....maybe reflect and consider what healthy/unhealthy might look like? And whose definitions do we use?
Why does it bother you so what goes on on a single thread? Maybe you need to state your reality very clearly and that's okay. In stating it, maybe you're demonstrating that you feel threatened by the ideas being discussed and stated? I'm not sure I feel threatened as such. Does me saying that help at all? If you want to talk about this off board, feel free. On onboard, i don't mind either way :D
Let's have some cheesey oatcakes together (i had some last week! purchased in Sainsbury's "down bloody South") ((((write))))
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Bless ya (((((((Write)))))))
For me, I'm quite happy for people to believe whatever they want to believe if they think it helps them through life. Our belief system is something so personal, some beliefs helpful, some not so helpful, but I feel anyone is mentally sound when they have the ability to change their belief system if they believe that some of their beliefs are unhelpful.
Take care
H&H xx
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I got the washing out and did some thinking. i thought:
what must it be like to be the mother of a 9-year-old boy in Congo, today, who knows that her son did such things as: shot people dead, cut off the noses and ears of adult woman?
If I was that mother, how would I explain those things to myself? How would my community explain those things to itself, collectively?
I might decide that my son was possessed by devils or demons. My community might decide that too and to spare his life, we can drive those demons out.
This is what happens.
Without other means of dealing with events (like access to western style medical care), are we to say that those mothers and communities are wrong in deciding to believe what they believe?
Do they have other choices? What people choose to believe is what they choose to believe. It doesn't make it 'real' but it makes it 'real' to them.
I have respect for other peoples' realities even if I don't share that reality with them.
I don't share their reality. I don't think that demons exist. However, I can't prove that and that isn't the point.
I am free to think whatever I want to. And so are they - unless it stops me thinking what I want to think. Then i have the right to fight to retain my freedom.
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Dear (((((((Write))))))))):
I don't see how I can continue to post here when people are posturing such nonsense
I hope you will keep posting and ignor what seems to make no sense to you. You have lots of good stuff to offer and it would be a shame to see you stop posting because of an inflamatory topic and views that may seem caustic. I hope you won't let that happen.
The more I think I know the more I realize how little I know. I'm glad I don't know everything and I'm glad to know you, who knows to be kind when in doubt, even if it is only knowing you a little, like this in cyberland.
We all have the same luxury of choice.....of choosing to speak or to be silent. I hope you will stick with your original choice and keep speaking here and not let the beliefs of others or their choice to voice them, influence you in a way that causes you to lose your voice and choose not to speak. It's what you believe that matters to you.
What do you think, Write? How much power are you willing to give the beliefs of others? Enough to stop your voice from being heard? I hope not. I like your voice. I like reading your posts. I will miss you if you go. :(
Sela
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dear write i believe in the oneness of spirit,i do not believe in demons or witches .that is what i believe. that other thread scared me too.i do not want to say how much but a lot OK! so i understand your feelings . i then worked thur my fear.for me my heart is filled with light and love and that is my truth.
please do post ,your voice is needed.
moonlight
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Hi Write,
Your post was beautiful, eloquent, and I can certainly understand why you had this passionate response. I can imagine that the "demonology" stuff is like scraping razors over the sanity and balance you've acquired.
Defending people's interest in posting about their spiritual beliefs is a core principle of mine. But that in no way means I "love" or agree with those assumptions. IOW, the "I have seen The Truth, I know What Reality Is, I will now Name It For You, and I will write with Absolutely No Room for Doubt or Questions."
For me, my challenge is to love and tolerate the speaker even if I dislike (as I do, in that case) a specific message. It would be a different matter if it were 3-D or if such a person was forcefully arguing in my face that I had to agree with them, or persistently repeating to me, in person, that their view of reality or experience was the only real one. In that case, I'd likely feel disrespected, or simply recognize that this person's beliefs made it essentially impossible for them to view me as their moral and human equal unless I capitulated to their definitions and dominance. In that case, I'd likely not seek out time with them, or simply withdraw.
I guess on a message board, we all have different thresholds of discomfort. I think posting what you did is a wonderful way to deal with it. Compassionate and passionate and not minimizing the intensity of your dislike for the topic, nor how it causes you, personally, pain to read. That may raise awareness in someone else, about how absolute beliefs or that sort of religiosity can be destructive to others. Or it may not. But it's tremendously valuable for you to express it. Thank you.
The way you described your perception of mental anguish and how those primitive (my opinion--no offense) labels for it are hurtful...or at least triggering...or repellent... I completely get it.
I am also sensitive to something Brigid said about the absolutist language of fundamentalism and its effect in the world. I believe that this is a worthy micro-example. Perhaps because of that, I am more determined than ever to try to stay in dialogue. But no one HAS to engage with a speaker or a topic, particularly if it's harmful or causing great distress.
Absolutist beliefs and statements that exclude the possibility that other convictions, such as yours, or mine, have equal value...are loud. Just in their meaning...they can drown out other human beings. ANY "This is THE Truth and the Only Truth There Is and it's Because I Say So--or even, Because This Book Says So" claim can do the same, in my view. The closed mind is painful to bounce against. And does drive people away. It takes a lot of strength to shield oneself from the hurt of implied rejection, dominance, and superiority of belief. (Saved-Unsaved, Believes-in-Demons/Rejects the Notion).
For that reason, such absolutes--other than love is IT--are not part of my own spiritual life.
Still, I'd far rather people were verbally and openly expressing those things, with me loving the speaker and holding my heart open to their humanness (no matter what their minds are directing them to pronounce)... than not talking about it.
I think it's when we retreat from each other, declaring the other to be "void" of worth because their belief statements repel us...that we get in trouble.
I think there's almost always common ground, sometimes between the lines, or just in our ordinary humanness. It's what I hope for, anyway.
My daughter's friend's father was just murdered in Iraq. He may have been a misguided peacemaker, but knowing what an extraordinarily gentle person he was, and how convicted of his beliefs...made the tragedy that his loving nature did not stop his killers' decision...even harder to take.
I don't know what the answers are. In person, I do feel that absolutists are a threat. Since here, there is no way to do physical harm, I just want to practice listening, without yielding my own sense or ability to think and be confident in my thoughts. Tolerance and goodwill have to start somewhere....
It's a discouraging, disquieting area for me, too.
I truly don't know what the answers are.
Hops
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((((((((((((Write))))))))))))))
I am at a loss for words and time right now....but we see things in a similar way.
There is love and light and God, uplifitng joy, as our essence, both collectively and individually..........and then there is seperation from that.. (fear, negativity, pain...downward spirals....).
That is ALL in my opinion.
We are aligned with spirit or we are not. Names, labels, stories... all do not matter ....all either with or without spirit, in the end....
Thank you.
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thank you for your kindness and feedback.
No, I am not afraid of making people angry. This topic makes me angry, and sad.
This is a support website not a religious debating club, but if it were merely a philosophical debate- then no, 'anything goes' or 'I respect everyone's individual beliefs whatever they are' isn't acceptable. That justifies most of the horrors of the world and people's bad behaviour already.
There have to be boundaries and outlines of what is generally acceptable in any group or society. Those boundaries are framed by culture, tradition, education, science, spiritual beliefs, and I would like to think good sense, tolerance and kindness.
When Christ cast out demons in the Bible that was the only known way of describing phenomenon like disability or mental illness. We know better.
For someone to state they can cast out demons in 2006, have been trained in it, makes me cross. If only one person in despair read that sort of nonsense and was lead to believe they were possessed, we should all be ashamed.
This is a supportive community. Many of us here have felt we were going crazy at times. If I was new here and that thread was one of the first things I read I would look no further.
Tolerance is the act of tolerating something not just a fashionable tenet of universal freedom. When something becomes abusive or potentially abusive that is the time to speak up and say no, I won't accept this just because of someone's individual freedoms.
Otherwise why not just accept our victim status with Nism and learn to tolerate that. Those Ns have rights and beliefs too!
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I hear you, Write.
The thing is, I don't find anyone's claims about such topics to be insulting to me, or abusive to me.
I don't feel diminished or hurt by them. I do feel very sorry that a more rational and gentle spirituality isn't more popular.
The only thing that would concern me about what you suggest is making the assumption that anyone who professes such a belief is abusive. So far, I'm not picking up such vibes. To me, abuse is malicious or ignorant, or some combination. I have already had respectful discussions with people here whose ideas are very very different from mine. Or even, whose worldviews would "rule me out." Yet...I don't feel ruled out.
The other thing, and I'm not saying maybe it shouldn't be talked about...is I ask myself, what are the taboos? Are there taboos here? And, where is the line drawn about what we can or can't discuss, and when different thoughts and opinions are shelved as "debate"?
I think there are implicit agreements in a Voicelessness board. Like, if someone starting telling another poster they were "possessed"--as you say, I think the lot of us would rise up instantly to shield them and "drive out" (no pun intended) the self-anointed judge.
I don't think that's happening here. I could be wrong and time will tell. (And I will eat humble pie, I promise!)
If it did, I'd change my tune. Free Speech is a heavy placard to hoist, sometimes, especially when you're defending the speech rights of someone with whom you disagree or whose thinking you find loathsome.
I think, for sure, that if someone were hateful or rcist or name-calling or threatening or sexually explicit, there would be reactions, too. "Demon" fancies have an ugly and violent edge to them. But there is a lot of drama in the human psyche...and a lot of ugliness in the world. Maybe "demon" has that same sort of edge, like name-calling or obscenity.
Still thinking, still thinking...my mind's open ...thanks for posting your thoughts too...
As with Ns, one can not engage, or not feed the thread...
(Is what you are talking about in general the vulnerability of people who have been mentally opened by various wounds or pain? Maybe that could be another thread, about what things people find they need to avoid, to stay balanced and feel positive in their trip toward wholeness?) I am sure I'm not stating your thoughts, just trying to sense the direction. I would like to hear more, anyway...
Hops
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As a person who has contributed to at least two threads that became quite contentious by calling for voluntary restraint in the subjects we approach I probably shouldn't stick my oar in here, but i will anyway.
There were two tenets to my other posts:
1. Consider steering clear of potentially disruptive subjects that are off the N topic, and
2. Whenever we do post try and be respectful of others.
Most people seemed to disagree with the first idea and agree with the second, but I don't think the first idea even applies here. ReallyMe was posting her beliefs concerning some people who display N behavior so it isn't actually off topic. People may disagree quite strongly with her theory but it is still on topic.
As i said earlier I am mostly persuaded that i was probably wrong to ask that off topic subjects be avoided. If the discussion remains respectful then what is the harm? If it doesn't remain respectful then the subject, whether off topic or on, doesn't much matter anyway.
I guess my problem with the thrust of this thread is it seems to depend completely on whose ox is being gored. I have seen numerous serious discussions of aligning chakras, astrology and various New Age approachs to dealing with Ns, and I have seen very little hostility directed at them. Now, a Christian, atheist, orthodox Jew or Muslim might be thoroughly offended by these ideas and consider them dangerous and harmful fairy tales, but they have been tolerated very well by the various people and faiths here. Why not the concept of Satan? Why is it OK to condemn someone who says that demons are real while the very same post says that the "spirit" exists. Are not both concepts equally dangerous fairy tales to an atheist?
Where is the line drawn? Either we stick strictly to a completely secular discussion that does not stray from the subject of voicelesness and Narcissisim or people are free to post their views on just about any subject as long as they aren't engaging in personal attacks.
I have been convinced by the good sense of people here that my call for voluntary avoidance of certain subjects was wrong, but at least it was a call for voluntary restraint, not a demand that we not tolerate such 'abusive or potentially abusive behavior'. I'm not even sure what 'potentially abusive behavior' is but who decides when it is being employed?
I don't think it is tolerant or helpful in the slightest to call someone else's beliefs nonsense or abusive just because we don't agree with them. Nor is it helpful to equate someone's right to state their general opinion on a subject with the immense damage done to people here by Ns. They are not equivalent whether the person is talking about demons, the Buddha or Gaia.
mud
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Mud,
Why didn't I say it half as well as that?
(And I presume I'm a thinker. Dang. Rustybrain.)
I think I'm occasionally a thinker but more often a muzzybrained Feeler...snorfing around like a trufflehunting pig, flipping words up and over trying to scent some information from the bits of peat that are stuck to them. Intention and tone matter so much more to me than literal content. They seem truer.
You are a wise man, to me an Elder.
Thank you,
Hops
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Oh Hopsy,
Maybe you didn't say what Mud said, but you did say this:
I think I'm occasionally a thinker but more often a muzzybrained Feeler...snorfing around like a trufflehunting pig, flipping words up and over trying to scent some information from the bits of peat that are stuck to them. Intention and tone matter so much more to me than literal content. They seem truer.
Tee, hee, hee! What a good little pig snorfing around. :D
At some point during the demons thread I recall saying I thought it was a great thread. It did begin in a startling way. But then it evolved into something very thoughtful and I was happy to get some depth to what ReallyMe believes and where her ideas come from. This was not an everyday conversation, not just small talk. It seemed like those who participated said what they really thought and also listened to what others said. I sure learned a lot.
This is a good thread, too. Topics regarding spirituality really mean something to people. None of the topics is mandatory, though. For example, I have nothing to add to divorce threads and some of the other ones about legal issues. And other ones besides the spirituality threads can be difficult depending on where you're coming from. The Agreements thread is turning out to be hard for me, but hopefully I'll figure out what I think and what I'd like to say. Any of us can do that at any time with any topic.
It took me a long time, most of my life so far in fact, to realize that disagreement doesn't mean the end of a relationship. Even heated disagreement. I didn't know people could come back together again after discovering things about each other that were different or after fighting or whatever. Differences seemed like disasters to me. I suppose that eventually some relationships can run their course if there is just too little in common any more. But here on this board, we have something major in common. That's something we can stick together on or at least come back to when necessary.
So, let's keep talking!! :)
PP
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Mud, with all due respect,
I guess my problem with the thrust of this thread is it seems to depend completely on whose ox is being gored. I have seen numerous serious discussions of aligning chakras, astrology and various New Age approachs to dealing with Ns, and I have seen very little hostility directed at them.
I disagree with that, Mud, very much.
Is your ox being gored?
I agree with Write that this is problematic and not just a harmless bout of opinions. I see her point and I am not afraid of telling you and reallyME that this talk of demons IS FEAR and HATRED at it's core, and if you want to talk "demonic" this advertisement for the vile and uncontrollable as "TRUE" may well be being orchestrated by said demons....how's that!!!?? (Read the SCREWTAPE LETTERS if you want to get into it!) IF they actually exist beyond our perception (um, nothing does, actually, IMO)...
How is this "real demon" talk getting us closer to God? How does this help HEAL on this board?
I also think it is a subject that may not be well understood enough to be dealt with in a healthy way by MANY people, not just those with histories of "mental illness".
And to focus on this seems NOT HELPFUL...and possibly HARMFUL.
I do not care a wit if you blast me for being "new agey". I am not attached to your opinion of me. However, I will always ask myself "am I helping? or am I hurting?" when I post on this board.....and I see NO help at all being offered by
this "REAL DEMONS" talk.
I do see that Write has a very well thought out opinion and that it is based on caring and kindness, not on WHO IS RIGHT.
I so appreciate that bravery, Write.
For someone to state they can cast out demons in 2006, have been trained in it, makes me cross. If only one person in despair read that sort of nonsense and was lead to believe they were possessed, we should all be ashamed.
Write said this, Really ME.
MUD: this (above) is the point that I think you neglected to acknowledge. This was the basic thought on this thread.
I not only can cast them out but I DO. I have been trained in Cleveland, Tennesse through a Demonology course indeed.
Mud, how is the above quote any different than some "new agey" thing? This whole "area" is a weird as it gets!! Talk about "alternative"!!!!!!! And just plain creepy and DARK. Not at all what I would feel comes from a loving intention.
ReallyME:
And I would ask you now:
HOW is your repeated mentions of your Demonology training HELPING here? How is it relevent?
What if I were to say: "I am clairvoyent and I see there is serious thick darkness here, masquerading as something no one can quite put their finger on.....but the person stirring this pot of tar is very pleased." ?
Would this mean I am posessed? Of knowing a thing or two? Mentally ill? New Agey?
Label away.....
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Look, I will say it again and again if I have to. There is no such thing as a demon.
The fact we are even discussing it at all as something potentially real is offensive to me!
Freedom of speech is a concept. Try going around speaking whatever comes to your mind and see how far you get even in a society which upholds it as a worthy value.
The truth on this board is it has moved way away from Nism over recent months, and attracted more and more posts which seem inclined to stir one or more people up.
I would ignore this thread as I have many others if it were someone making mischief, or basically harmless as some of the religious and political threads have been- where people are merely disagreeing or trying to defend their position.
But in any mental health context use of concepts such as demons is harmful and dangerous- abusive in that there are people with strong views who can manipulate such concepts and it makes people who suffer mental illness feel that it is something imposed upon them, a form of wickedness and out of their control.
I would frankly say to anyone who wants to be mentally well- stay away from medieval occult imagery, why torment yourself or make yourself afraid?
But someone who suffers delusional illness ( and severe depression can cause psychosis ) MUST avoid such concepts and be firmly convinced in the ability of their rational mind to know what is real outside of themselves.
When people chatter about demons and demonology like we're talking rational sense here- I'm sorry, you crossed my boundary of tolerance and it's time for me to speak out.
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If the subject is of an eternal nature and my firmly held belief is that 'another path to God' is in fact a deception and is leading that person to hell then I have a moral obligation to tell that person my belief.
Mudpup: bringing this over from the other thread....because:
I see no difference in what you say (above) and why Write felt compelled to comment on the subject of demons. Her firmly held belief was stated with all the respect due and with no less moral obligation than what you state as a belief above.
Thank you, Write. I will refrain from elaborating on my take on your take (etc...ad nauseum) You have very consisely and wisely made your point with clarity. I see my part in continuing this unhealthy discussion and will stop.
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the discussion is not unhealthy.
A belief in demons is.
And reallyMe I am very sorry if you have had people tell you you are possessed and have performed some kind of ritual cleansing on you. That was cruel and abusive of them. You have been misled by an unhealthy group of people. Maybe Ns or other sick people were involved.
But that you would now perpetuate it is your choice. You chose to bring it to this forum, which deals primarily with mental health and recovery issues.
And others chose to join in.
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Write and Mum,
I understand. I do grasp the darkness of the concept. I don't like it either. I can also imagine how vulnerable people with mental illness might be negatively affected. However, I still return to freedom and intention. I do understand how the topic is repellent and fearful and may seem unevolved to most people who are savvy and smart and use the internet to read up on psychological issues and find support and community.
However, I also Googled demonology and the town in Tennessee that ReallyME mentioned, and see a real course that is clearly taught by convicted Pentecostals or people with similar beliefs.
The reason I stayed open to it, is because these Tennessee people feel familiar to me, and not evil.I have many fundamentalist relatives. With my strong beliefs in accepting and respecting others' religious beliefs...it is a cue to me to listen harder and try not to demonize those with radical faiths I do not understand.
The reason this came to be important in my life is that one relationship summed up the dilemma for me. I had an uncle who was a preacher, literally preaching in an old barn, and he preached many Old Testament texts and in a fundamentalist mindset that I had long since dismissed. I had to grapple for a long time with the fact that I loved this uncle despite many of his scary beliefs, that I dismissed. I also pondered the fact that of all my relatives, this uncle walked the Christian walk in a way I was moved by. He spent every single Saturday night visiting extremely poor people in tiny little country nursing home. Many of these old people had noone else, and had been abandoned. He was doing more things that were loving and right, in service to others, than I ever have. Yet, he told me things such as, I am so worried for your soul that I nearly wore out the knees of my pajamas praying for you last night! (Because I was Unitarian, divorced, and more...SO different from the path he believed was right.) That morning, after I'd spent the night on their farm, I just said, well Uncle, that's why I slept so well. And what I meant is, I know that my uncle genuinely loved me. His inner crusade to "save" me was motivated by love. He hated to travel and he drove across two states to visit me at my college in the late 60s when he was worried about me.
The place where ReallyME studied and had her experience is Tennessee. I lived in Appalachian Kentucky at one point, working at an orphanage. We interacted with many people who had such alien beliefs...possession, snake handling, speaking in tongues (I witnessed this as well). I do not accept or share any of these beliefs or practices.
What I'm trying to get at is that I experienced these people as good people. Rigid and intolerant is one way to describe their beliefs, as I feel is true with any sect that is fundamentalist, whether Christian, Islamist, or whatever. (To my mind, it might as well be voodoo.) In my education and middle class experience they might have been primitive. But these Appalachian people were also strong, admirable, extremely poor...and when they came to our events down by the river they would sing the old songs from the early religion that so many of my relatives had known, and their voices moved me.
I noted that the little evangelist school that ReallyME referred to also runs a home for unwed mothers, and collects food for the hungry. They walk the walk. So...I just choose to stay open.
Rituals I don't get, and different ways of grappling with the darkness in life...I feel that although there is potential harm in any of it, there is also potential good. It all depends on the intention. I know Al Queda grew popular because they also fed people, and paid them...so I do understand the connection between radical religion and community influence, for good or ill.
But I don't see these evangelical Appalachian sects, that remind me of many early American Protestant roots...as Al Queda. They're not killing. They are trying to save people, in the ritual and the language that is real to them.
I don't share this reality but I can't bring myself to try to ban it. From here, from the world. I can express my disagreement, my more "modern" and liberal ideas about mental health and spirituality.
But my uncle loved me. And I loved him. In honor of his memory, I defend ReallyME's right to tell the story of her experience and her convictions, even though I do not believe them myself.
I simply have to trust that even if someone is mentally ill and vulnerable, the intelligence that brings them to find this board, which has so many, many valuable threads and different ways of approaching healing, such a rich variety of voices and discussions...that same healing intelligence would guide them away from this and the other controversial thread if there is danger for them there. (I know there was an earlier thread I decided to delete all my posts from, because I found a voice there was threatening to my inner peace. And I am still here, and I am well.)
Does this make any sense, Write and Mum? I coudln't respect two people more than I do you, and I sincerely understand your objections to this topic. I just honestly have to respect others' voices here too, if I feel their intention is innocent.
Maybe Doc G would have an opinion, if you are deeply concerned. I know at times people do get upset when this board drifts off the original outlines of its topic...but ReallyME wanted to talk about narcissism too. Should we shut her up? I can't. I am very sorry about your distress and I respect your concern for vulnerable newcomers here.
Love to all,
Hops
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Morning Hops, I see your post but should I stop my post because of your very serious post?
No. Here goes. Note: Play is a very serious matter.
Hey Write :D good morning
I'm having trouble taking this thread seriously this morning, how about you?
I don't know actually how people define 'demons'? I have very little knowledge in this area. I did a Google on demonology courses just for the hell of it, or for the heaven of it? interesting stuff.
What is a demon? I have no idea. Do you know what one is supposed to be? If you say they don't exist.......you know what they are supposed to be? I don't. I really don't. It's beyond me.
I like this: http://www.demonologyresearch.com/ very interesting. Really. Fascinating.
And then i thought I'd look for voodoo dolls and spell kits and so on. There's so much that you can buy to help you! http://www.calastrology.com/?ID=21&ADV=CD29&LAND=0 I love it "Emergency Spells! Urgent! If your need is immediate and time is short! Click here now!"
Hey I gotta get me a Luck Wanga just for the name alone.
Oh my: "The Unconditional Love Spell - Receive the love you’ve always yearned for!" :shock: :shock: :shock: It's that easy???? Where's my credit card? Quick quick! My time is short...
"Witch Doctor Spell Kits - These do-it-yourself spell kits are powerful, spiritual rituals and are not to be taken lightly!" this is the one for me! :D :D :D
Fool? Money? Parted? Easily?
Truth: I own two packs of Tarot Cards :shock: absolutely true. And an assortment of astrology books. And an Ephemeris (1950 to 2000 if anyone wants the info) but.....I still don't know....
what is a demon? :?
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I would frankly say to anyone who wants to be mentally well- stay away from medieval occult imagery, why torment yourself or make yourself afraid?
But someone who suffers delusional illness ( and severe depression can cause psychosis ) MUST avoid such concepts and be firmly convinced in the ability of their rational mind to know what is real outside of themselves.
Write...I completely agree with this advice. I think if a person feels fear on reading this thread, they definitely should avoid it. In my own case, though I also want to be mentally well, I don't feel threatened by the discussion. But there have been times earlier in my life when deep anxiety states would--and did--make me vulnerable to some dark currents.
I still have faith in the overall intention here, for good and for acceptance and for healing...so I hope the existence of this thread won't destabilize anyone (You are not hypnotized! Your inner drive toward Light and Wholeness is in charge!) or drive anyone away.
I may not post much more in this discussion myself...I think with the story about my uncle and Appalachia, I've probably said my piece...
Peace which passeth all understanding...to all...
Hops
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Well I’m still here. I haven’t been struck down by some curse yet. And I haven’t had any visions. And I haven’t seen any inanimate objects crying milk (if I did, I’d want to take them apart and see how they worked).
Hop, just read your post properly. I hadn’t read it before I wrote mine above.
Your interpretation of your uncle’s love for you is wonderful. I like your message which I feel is: if people do good, they do good. If people do harm, they do harm. It doesn’t matter what their beliefs are – it’s their actions that count. I agree.
Just read your follow up post Hops. When you say “vulnerable to some dark currents” what do you mean?
And just to inject a little more (possible?) humour into this thread, when you said “try not to demonize those with radical faiths I do not understand” I did nearly fall off my chair – it’s my extrapolation of that thought…..People who believe in demons are demons! :D
It’s like “I can’t stand people who are intolerant!”
Hops, I don’t think I have an inner drive to light and wholeness. I have an inner drive towards reality with a capital R. My reality is what I make it. Other’s realities are what they make it.
Back in my real world, I am going to have a coffee and Write, those cheesey oatcakes are still on offer if you fancy one.
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Hmmm, Portia...vulnerable to dark currents, whaddid I mean...
I am not too specifically sure how to express it, but probably because of those scary Old Testament relatives, and raging panic disorder, and my fear and love about being alienated from my family...I had become A Poet fer godssake, I was reading things like Whitman, the gay mystic...yikers.
I went soooo far away from the core beliefs in good, evil, saved, unsaved, heaven, hell, that I had absorbed from my mother's side of the family. A part of me still believed a wee bit in those drastic visions. I couldn't hang onto them and now that's long gone...but in those vulnerable years, which were also the...umm...hallucinogenic late 60s...I was sometimes attracted to cultish Christianity. I would sit in front of the TV, very lonely, and answer the sweating shouting preachers' instructions, trying to get saved. I would recite the required prayer just as they directed and sincerely wait for the bolt of enlightenment.
Sighh. It never came. Years went by. Other things saved me. Therapy, friends, stability in community, the decency of most people I knew and met.
I just keep blundering back to my basic stance, like yours...assume goodness unless the hair on your neck rises...
I can embrace a person, look at them with gentleness, if I don't see hatred or evil intent. Heck, if people externalize human evil by calling it demons or Satan, and wrestle with it in dramatic rituals, it's really okay with me. It's also okay with me when the simple people I knew in Appalachia would go down into the river, and let a preacher lower them in the water, and come up with a look of exaltation and peace on their faces.
I no longer long for those ecstatic experiences myself. Because I have a tendency toward anxiety disorder, they are destabilizing for me. But I have known people who were "delivered" from desperate lives by such immersion. I am grateful to be immersed instead in a community that feels saner and more fitting for me.
But my uncle spent every Saturday night, for years and years, sitting by beds in a literal "poorhouse", holding peoples' hands, and singing old hymns to them in his beautiful voice. There was that. His wife, my aunt, literally never once bought herself a new dress because there was always someone she felt needed the money. She was very content with hand-me-downs, so she gave to the poor.
It's kind of like what ReallyMe said about widows and orphans. That feels like good intention to me.
Hops
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Dear Hops,
I no longer long for those ecstatic experiences myself. Because I have a tendency toward anxiety disorder, they are destabilizing for me.
I don’t think I have any “disorders” as defined by the men who write the DSM (am I likening the DSM to the bible? Yes.). But I think if I was immersed in water I might find it a bit worrying. If I’d convinced myself there was some psychological effect of being immersed in water, and had worked myself into an emotional state about it, because I wanted to believe in something…..the experience might make me anxious.
Or I might get anxious because I’m not emotionally involved and because I am expected to experience something – heck! I might fail! I might be found at fault!
I have anxiety disorder. What does that mean? What is the effect on the brain of thinking like that?
I have X. That means somehow that X is a thing that is not part of me, but a thing, like a foreign invader, like a cancer or a virus, that I ‘have’.
I think to say we ‘have’ a disorder is to remove responsibility for ourselves.
“I have depression” versus “I am depressed.”
The first is something that has taken hold of me, the second is something about me.
“I have an addiction to cigarettes” versus “I like smoking and am too stupid and pig-headed to give it up”. The second is true for me.
Wouldn’t it be more honest to say “Sometimes I am anxious”. Some things I find upset my sense of reality so I don’t bother with them. Does that make me wrong, bad, or mad? Or maybe the things that upset me are wrong in my mind?.......................................
Isn’t it okay to be anxious sometimes? Put me inside a catholic church or a mosque with a thing in progress (people doing whatever it is they do) and I’d be pretty anxious. Yes I would. I might feel my reality slipping. If I was forced to stay and take part, I might start behaving in a way which others might judge to be “mad”. They might think I was a demon!
If people are delivered from immersion, I think they are ‘delivered’ by the efforts of their own brains. If it works I think it’s great. Nothing wrong with anything that causes helpful things to happen. Maybe.
I better leave this thread for a while. I’m upsetting myself. I make no distinctions between demons and gods or the Devil and God. I don’t personally believe in either and to me, they are pretty much the same.
Demon or God, what’s the point? What’s the objective? Labels all. DSM or Voodoo book?
Isn’t it possible that I can choose with my own brain to act in helpful or harmful ways? Personal responsibility.
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Portia and Hopalong-
you have taken over this thread and brought over the 'casual discussion' element which is on the other thread here.
I did not post on the other thread myself out of netiquette and respect for the serious things which were emerging in that thread.
My intention here is very simple.
To point out an obvious fact and truth- that there is no such thing as a demon and whatever your belief system or mentalhealth state anyone who is telling you there is is misguided, fearful, abusive, wrong- whatever their particular motivation is.
I don't want to debate personal freedoms or religious beliefs. I am very open to people's often very strange cultures.
Until it comes to a point of unhealthy belief and spreading fantastic fears- and on a site about mental wellbeing of all places.
There is no such thing as a demon.
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you have taken over this thread and brought over the 'casual discussion' element which is on the other thread here.
Nonsense Write, rubbish and balderdash. My opinion. Stuff the oatcakes then. I’ll eat them myself.
I am not on the other thread. I’m scared of that thread. Are you stopping me talking here?
Okay. I’ll silence myself here. Fuck it.
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Well that lasted about 5 minutes eh? Changed my mind.
Write hello?
There is no such thing as a demon.
If you really mean this, how on earth do you know, as a fact?
You must have a very clear idea of what you mean by the word ‘demon’?
I don’t even know what a demon is. Do you? I have no frame of reference for ‘demon’. Show me something and tell me you call it ‘demon’ and maybe I’ll understand your perception.
Isn’t a demon whatever anyone chooses it to mean?
I could call Tony Blair a demon. That’s my right, to say “I think Tony Blair is a demon”. What would I mean? I’d mean he’s a menace to democracy. But he’s still human to me.
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hey bean I'm glad, I like to raise a smile. Oh you've posted again. I'll post, log out, read and reflect okay? thanks.
I did mean to inject a bit of light-heartedness into the discussion. Then later I got really upset and I swore out of frustration - not something I do lightly. I got over it though. Best to leave it there i think, although maybe the upset isn't obvious?
*sigh*
Write
I hope you'll continue talking here. I see what you're trying to say. I just wish you'd say it's your opinion, rather than fact, because I'd like to think that's what you think. Why? Because I've been here a long time and so have you and....well....oh I don't know. I just don't see you as a fundamentalist absolutist person. There's nothing scary about all this, really, in my opinion and direct experience of the world. I wonder if you think/feel there is?
Words on a message board = scary? What do you think?
bye for now
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Write,
What I wrote in this thread was not casual to me. It was heartfelt. This stance that I was trying to express...comes from a place that affected my life deeply. My effort to reconcile it all has had a lot to do with healing and some of the deepest truths in my life.
I don't believe demons exist either. I understand that is the point you wanted to make in starting this. You can lock the thread if it's causing too much anger or frustration. Only the starter can do that. I did it once.
Meanwhile, I look at anyone's contribution as still weaving. If the thread's not cut, I think any of us can pick it up and keep weaving...
But I care about hearing you too, Write. I have had ample opportunity to tell my view here. So I'll step out. I can tell my voice is distressing you right now. I don't want to escalate that. (I'm not feeling "silenced"--just want to give you some room.)
Portia,
I do like it better to say that I have FELT anxiety. Sometimes it made sense or was in response to something I could spy. Even in hindsight. Other times panic attacks would descend out of the bloody blue. Quite terrifying, and it did feel like a disorder then. So, in my case, it's both. Maybe I'll start another thread sometime to chat about anxiety stuff.
Thanks,
Hops
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write: And reallyMe I am very sorry if you have had people tell you you are possessed and have performed some kind of ritual cleansing on you. That was cruel and abusive of them. You have been misled by an unhealthy group of people. Maybe Ns or other sick people were involved.
I'm not! I'm grateful to all the people who saw what was controlling me and hurting others through me. I"m thankful that people took their time to walk through my deepest pains and hurts with me and finally make those "things" leave me alone. I'm glad there were people who saw devils as real and knew how to make them leave my mind and body, so I could finally be in peace in my soul.
Hopalong: The place where ReallyME studied and had her experience is Tennessee. I lived in Appalachian Kentucky at one point, working at an orphanage. We interacted with many people who had such alien beliefs...possession, snake handling, speaking in tongues (I witnessed this as well). I do not accept or share any of these beliefs or practices.
WOW! AM I EVER IMPRESSED! You actually googled to locate the school I attended. We didn't practice snake handling nor learn it, just for the record. Those people seem to have a "death wish" in my opinion. I do pray and prophesy in tongues, also for the record.
I don't really mind people getting upset about what I share. Some of my demon-chasin friends would just say it's the devils in them getting angry, but I won't say that. I'll just leave everyone to their own view. It doesn't sway me one way or the other. I know what I know and I know what I've experienced...and one thing another man cannot convince you against, is your person experience.
~ReallyME
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hi everyone
SATAN AND DEMONS HAVE GOTTEN A VERY BAD RAP HERE !tee hee
what if Satan's purpose in a world of polarity was to hold darkness to show mankind even more what love really means.
good-bad light-dark go beyond this polarity what purpose does what men call demons or Satan do show more
need for love ? go beyond the opposites. then Satan lays down his burden (someday soon)and mankind does not need to
learn from
darkness . i do not presume to know the mind of GOD . its just the other thread scared me a little. Hops
my mama was raised in little rock ,ark and was told she would go to hell if she did not get straight A's in school.
i grew up in conn. .mom did not lay that religion trip on me but i heard enough from her to scare me and i know how much
it hurt her.so i understand what you are saying. lets give demons a break .they do not exists well only if you believe they do.
only my opinion .
Moonlight
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Hop.....hear you. (((((Hops)))))
Moonlight. Lovely.
bean....
Ummmmm....loud voices...."you're wrong I'm right" "this is the truth".....hey everyone how about a giggle and a time-out? Let me amuse and entertain you with these side issues....maybe they seem funny but it's the only way I can be heard to make a serious point, or maybe it's the only I can get any attention......stop the noise.....and please don't patronise me or think this play isn't very very serious...please don't push me aside in your need to get on with your arguing...or worse...ignore me. I offer you a joke and food and you ignore me? That's going to feel bad. I have to decide if I'm up yet again against another brick wall. And decide to stop banging my head against it. Again.
I mean, this is hard work damn it! Time consuming! :x and I choose to do it :o does that make me nuts? :D
Mind you. Some walls I don't bother with. Big sturdy ones that don't throw their shadows over me. It's those where I think I see a chink of light coming through that I'll try with. Repetition compulsion anyone? I'll have two sugars with mine. I'm gone....
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Hi mum,
I'm none too sure I get your point. Either that or you didn't get mine.
I believe I understand pretty well what write is saying and the point of this thread. I have not contested her right to hold any opinion she chooses. I simply asked why it was not possible to grant others that same right. Who decided write gets to approve which opinions will be tolerated on this board?
Your question about whose ox is being gored makes my point for me. There is only one ox being gored. Buddhists, New Agers, astrologers, atheists etal have been perfectly free to post their opinions on dealing with Ns without a backlash, when people of goodwill I'm sure have found their opinions just as nonsensical and 'potentially abusive' as write finds the concept of demons. I have found many of the things said here over the last year to be not only wrong but occasionally silly and often leading people down a dead end road. But I did not engage in a crusade to declare their opinions dangerous nonsense, with the implication that anyone who believed such nonsense was a harmful ignoramous at best and possibly an intentionally abusive person. I didn't declare that in my tolerance I was no longer going to tolerate such opinions. The clear implication of stating that reallyme's posts cross a standard of tolerable behavior on this board is an attempt to silence her. Write has not confined herself to merely saying reallyme is wrong. She has attempted to shut her up. I find that more ironic on a 'voicelessness' board than a discussion of demons. Write is quite free to express her opinion in any manner she sees fit as long as she doesn't attack anyone personally. She is not free to stifle opinions she disagrees with. If we all took advantage of that 'freedom' the board would soon be closed down.
Quote
If the subject is of an eternal nature and my firmly held belief is that 'another path to God' is in fact a deception and is leading that person to hell then I have a moral obligation to tell that person my belief.
Mudpup: bringing this over from the other thread....because:
I see no difference in what you say (above) and why Write felt compelled to comment on the subject of demons. Her firmly held belief was stated with all the respect due and with no less moral obligation than what you state as a belief above.
So you can't see the difference between me saying I believe in this or that and I feel obligated to tell others my opinion and write's description of reallyme's opinion as fearful, abusive or misguided? You don't see a difference between me stating what I believe and write's description of reallyme's opinion as beyond what should be allowed on this board? Where in my quote did I denigrate anyone elses opinion or more importantly their right to say it? Write could very easily have said 'There are no demons' just as I said there is 'only one path to God' and no one would have had a problem. But she went on to say that those who say there are demons are fools or worse and should not be allowed to say such things on this board.
You went write one better by describing the belief in demons as 'HATRED'. Now that doesn't even make sense from a logical point of view. Many, many people over the year-plus I have been here have described Ns as just plain evil; evil incarnate. Some people have politely disagreed, others have agreed. But I don't remember anyone describing it as HATRED in capitol letters to call an N evil. So if reallyme ascribes the behavior of an N as not the Ns fault but the result of the influence of an outside agent how is she being any more hateful than a person who describes Ns as evil? Reallyme has even stated that Ns can change and should never be thought of as hopeless cases and yet she is described as engaging in HATRED. That's not logical, and to be frank its not very nice. I believe it is beneath you.
mud
PS. Quick question for bean.
reallyme wrote:
I don't really mind people getting upset about what I share
And you responded with:
Ouch, that could be a problem with me. Are you trying to make me upset then? (said hypothetically, because I'm not, but I can see where others might be here, and this screams insensitive to me).
Earlier write wrote:
No, I am not afraid of making people angry.
Didn't this scream 'insensitive' also?
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Do you think I have nothing better to do? I have had some interesting personal observations on Nism this week, and here I am using my computer time amusing people who want to discuss demons and semantic philosophy.
Recovering our voices surely wasn't so we could be hurtful or play around with other people's feelings or muddy the waters on what is healthy?
As I have said- this is a recovery and mental health site.
Do you think a US or British doctor or psychiatrist or therapist who 'casts out demons' would be allowed to continue practising?
I have no problem with reallyMe or anyone else talking about their demon experiences within the context of a healthy discussion- eg as a mental disturbance or some experience they are trying to recover from.
But to bring it here as some kind of therepeutic tool and keep insisting it's legitimate.
That's not healthy. And the fact that no one challenged it and wondered how the person's mental health really is, that's not healthy either.
Am I attempting to shut anyone up?
I think I have made it clear what I am attempting- to state clearly and coherently as I can as a plain fact that demons do not exist.
You can continue to mock me or laugh at me or be annoyed or try to be right or whatever it is you're individually doing here.
I don't care about arguing or being right or wrong with an opinion. I believe spiritually people have to find their own way. In a healthy way.
People are people. Talk of demons frightens those who are suggestive, imaginative, already afraid etc.
I am just pointing out that people need not buy into that fear: demons do not exist.
I would point out the same if any 'Buddhist, New Ager, atheist et al' were making the claim.
PS.
And as for me being insensitive mudpuppy, that's just below the belt given my track record here. I was merely replying that I am not afraid of other people's anger in response to the question; there have been times I would be afraid to speak out and of making people angry, but not now.
However if I am to be part of any community nowadays it has to be healthy and I have a responsibility to speak up or move on if it's not.
As I stated when started the thread- if people think I am so off-beam with what seems reasonable and obvious to me then I will move on and leave you all to your demons.
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I'm with Write about this wrong...some beliefs are personal--let's be more positive here. I'm not sure some will think this applies but I was reminded of this story and I wanted to share it here.
God's Baseball Game
Bob was caught up in the spirit when he and the Lord stood by to observe a baseball game. The Lord's team was playing Satan's team. The Lord's team was at bat, the score was tied at zero and it was the bottom of the 9th inning with two outs. They continued to watch as a batter stepped up to the plate whose name was Love. Love swung at the first pitch and hit a single, because Love never fails.
The next batter was Faith, who also got a single because Faith works with Love. The next batter up was named Godly Wisdom. Satan wound up and threw the first pitch. Godly Wisdom looked it over and let is pass because Godly Wisdom does not swing at Satan's pitches. Ball one. Three more pitches and Godly Wisdom walked, because Godly Wisdom never swings at Satan's throws.
The bases were loaded. The Lord then turned to Bob and Told him He was now going to bring in His star player. Up to the plate stepped Grace. Bob said he sure did not look like much! Satan's whole team relaxed when they saw Grace. Thinking he had won the game, Satan wound up and fired his first pitch. To the shock of everyone, Grace hit the ball harder than anyone had ever seen. But Satan was not worried; his center fielder, the Prince of the air, let very few get by. He went up for the ball, but it went right through his glove, hit him on the head and sent him crashing on the ground.
Then the ball continued over the fence for a home run!!! The Lord's team won. The Lord then asked Bob if he knew why Love, Faith, and Godly Wisdom could get on base but could not win the game? Bob answered that he did not know why. The Lord explained, "If your love, faith and wisdom had won the game you would think you had done it by yourself. Love, faith and wisdom will get you on base, but only My grace can get you home."
Let's all try have a little grace as we travel through life. A new twist on "Grace Unfolding".
BJ
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write,
I didn't say you are insensitive. I asked bean if she found your nearly identical comment to reallyme's as insensitive as she found reallyme's. I didn't find either statement particualarly insensitive.
If you were merely stating your opinion that people need not buy into the fear of mythical demons then why did you state:
There have to be boundaries and outlines of what is generally acceptable in any group or society.
Tolerance is the act of tolerating something not just a fashionable tenet of universal freedom. When something becomes abusive or potentially abusive that is the time to speak up and say no, I won't accept this just because of someone's individual freedoms.
Freedom of speech is a concept. Try going around speaking whatever comes to your mind and see how far you get even in a society which upholds it as a worthy value.
I am very open to people's often very strange cultures.
Until it comes to a point of unhealthy belief and spreading fantastic fears- and on a site about mental wellbeing of all places.
The implication of each one of those statements seems to go beyond warning people of the nonsense of the concept of demons. It seems a pretty clear indication you think her ideas are too harmful to be expressed here and should be silenced. Or alternately, if it doesn't cease you will leave.
You can continue to mock me or laugh at me or be annoyed or try to be right or whatever it is you're individually doing here.
I'm not doing any of those things. I don't think you are being fair to reallyme and I am pointing out why I think that. I don't think any of us gets to appoint ourselves the arbiter of what is acceptable spirituality here and what isn't.
This subject seems to touch a personal chord for you, so I'll drop the subject for now. But as a general rule I don't think personal hot button issues should be extrapolated into a universal policy for everyone involved in a discussion.
Take care.
mud
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The implication of each one of those statements seems to go beyond warning people of the nonsense of the concept of demons. It seems a pretty clear indication you think her ideas are too harmful to be expressed here and should be silenced. Or alternately, if it doesn't cease you will leave.
Not that the person should be silenced ( -the person to my mind is in requirement of support, sympathy and considerable healing akin to having belonged to any cult, and I would certainly contribute positively to that if I can in any way- ) but that the views being stated and debated as fact are unacceptable and harmful in a mental health arena.
The leaving would of course be my personal choice. I do not intend for this board to become like some of my other life experiences when I have remained in the face of evidence that it was not a healthy situation, often swayed by some of the practical and linguistic arguments people are offering here.
I set my boundaries. I will not belong to any group which has retrograde, harmful or unacceptable beliefs and practices. And above all I am an advocate for mental health and wellbeing.
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Ah I need to really be careful here. I realize every person has a bit of narcissistic tendency in them in general, and I know I have to be guarded about not appearing non-caring or insensitive due to my own flaws...
BEAN: hi reallyME,
I am curious, why you seem (my opinion) to be so obsessed with demons? As far as I'm concerned, "demons" (since I really have no clue what they are--and no I don't Want to Know what they are) could be alcohlism, drug addiction, or any perceived human suffering/problem or condition --I also only have a vague sense of what these "really are" either. To me, obsession with something equates to unfinished business. So what's your unfinished business do you think? Or do you totally disagree with me here?
First of all, I answer questions of people who originally wanted to understand the information of my experience with deliverance ministry and devils and I'm asked "why you seem to be so obsessed with demons?" I find this funny in a sort of "bait n switch" type of way...I was ASKED to share about my experience, so I did, and now I'm said to be OBSESSED for sharing.
My "unfinished business? again, laughing here...I'm not only delivered spiritually from devils myself, but I'm on meds for my own problems that happened to not be demonic, but neurologically-based...bipolar and adhd. There is always unfinished something in life though, isn't there? I'm sure I haven't arrived.
Ouch, that could be a problem with me. Are you trying to make me upset then? (said hypothetically, because I'm not, but I can see where others might be here, and this screams insensitive to me).
MAKE you upset? Nobody can MAKE anyone feel anything. I'm not insensitive, I'm nonchalant and free in who I am and where I'm at on things. I don't have a need to take other's views on as mine nor do I feel guilty about not doing so. That's all.
~ReallyME
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hi reallyme i see you have no unfinished business with talking about demons great ,you say you have been delivered
from "devils" thats good . we all agree we own our feelings good. i guess the topic of demons is done for you as you say in your post above. because you have been delivered from them. maybe we can discuss bipolor (maybe here there is unfinished business?)and other topics we share on this board and how we learn to cope ,laugh and be
kind to each other. i am sure you are not obsessed with the topic of demons so maybe we just are done talking about demons?have i understood your post correctly?i do belive you belive in demons. why the need to discuss this futher?
God bless
moonlight
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moonlight: hi reallyme i see you have no unfinished business with talking about demons great ,you say you have been delivered
from devils thats good . we all agree we own our feelings good. i guess the topic of demons is done for you as you say in your post above. maybe we can discuss bipolor and other topics we share on this board and how we learn to cope ,laugh and be
kind to each other. i am sure you are not obsessed with the topic of demons so maybe we just are done talking about demons?have i understood your post correctly?
God bless
moonlight
And again I smile at this innocent-sounding post which I'm sure is indeed innocent, just by virtue of the one who posted it.
I will restate that it was not I who brought up the topic of "demons" as you all call them...I refer to them as Jesus does usually...devils. I simply answered people's questions regaring my personal experience in deliverance ministry. Am I done with the topic? I don't know...are you all? I enjoy talking about a myriad of things...I'm quite ecclectic really.
blessya
~ReallyME
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hi reallyme i am done with the subject moon
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Write
would you do me the kindness and respond to me please?
I want to know who you are speaking on behalf of here.
Is it only yourself?
Or are you defending some other people who may be upset by this discussion?
I really need to know. If you are upset, I'd like to know.
If you are speaking as a matter of ethics or principle, that is different.
Thank you. Portia
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This is my last post on this subject (I hope),
bean,
no, I did not find write to be insensitive.
OK. Just wondering.
write,
Just for the record. The entire Christian church, from Eastern Orthodox through Roman Catholic on to virtually every Protestant denomination has for the last 2000 years held as a matter of theological doctrine the existence of spiritual beings known as angels and that some of these angels fell from grace and are at war with God. Literally billions of people, the vast majority of them suffering from no mental maladies, have believed this from then until now, including some of the greatest minds in the history of mankind.
To equate this belief to the brainwashing of a cult or mental illness does not seem too charitable to put it mildly. I mean you're not just dismissing reallyme or mudpuppy, you're dismissing as mentally ill or brainwashed automatons Jesus, Paul the apostle, JohnPaul II, Mother Theresa, Thomas Aquinas, Albert Schweitzer, Karl Barth, Isaac Newton, George Washington, CS Lewis, GK Chesterton, Saint Francis ad infinitum. Some cult.
mud
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bean,
It was mum who used the term 'hatred', not write.
mud
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The explanations in response to people's questions weren't what gave me the idea you were obsessed with demons, it was your explaining how you do this For a Living?
exactly
or Hobby?
that would imply that helping someone get free is some sort of a game or enjoyable pasttime. To me that would be cruel to call it that.
I'm not sure if either of these are the correct words to use as 1) not sure you get paid to exorcise people
no, I don't. It is a prayer time and inner healing time.
Just trying to explain myself there. Obsession might have a bad implication, but it is something one does over and over and you do say you are still exorcising demons right?
ok, then consider me obsessed then. I love "kickin the devil's butt" and seeing the change in people as they go from being bound and tormented to free indeed.
Assume for a minute I think this is OK (I really have no thoughts whatsoever, good bad or ugly on this practice as again, I have no idea what it is nor do I want to know)-- you appear to derive self-esteem from it?
self-esteem? not hardly. The Bible says "in MY NAME (Jesus'), they shall cast out devils..." I am doing what I'm designed by God to do, along with every believer and follower. It's just something that's in the genes.
You are "walking the walk" as you say. Great. How has this helped you, personally with your N?
Not sure if you asking me how has casting out devils helped me with N or what? Deliverance is something that can only work with someone who wants to be free. I don't impose my will on someone else, nor does God.
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I can't reply to everything individually, but no I speak for myself and a long process of learning to be healthy, especially dealing with psychosis and bipolar mania.
Once certain ideas and imagery are allowed unchecked within any forum ( including the human brain! ) I feel they are unhealthy. I'm sure there are other concepts ( such as my neighbour being known as a witch ) but demons is one of those out-moded unpleasant ways to approach someone's problems. Casting out demons tells me more about the mental health of the person offering deliverance than the person they think is possessed.
For sound mental health people certainly need to explore spirituality and come to terms with what they find, even if it's nothing. But that does not mean a religious/thought free-for-all where all ideas and positions have equal merit. If there is harm in something- and instinct tells me there is considerable harm in introducing the concept of demons to people with mental health or other problems- then it's not right.
From the ancient teachings religious people have learned to have a certain interpretation of miracles and spiritual phenomenon which can still be relevant even when it is not literal or scientific. Angels is one of those phenomena.
Psychology and psychiatry are not exact sciences, may never be because of the individual nature of each patient. But there is a 'best-practice' approach where people can join together and say, ok this is acceptable, this is borderline, this is not. There is already within these fields a pretty broad consensus as to what constitutes and contributes to good mental health. A collective reality. Medics etc can be believers or atheists and still be part of this.
I also feel strongly that as a support group our response to someone posting here about their experiences of demons is not in good sound support.
People come to different forums for different things.
Very little happens entirely by accident, and I would suspect that if reallyMe reallyIs experiencing demons there would be a part of him/her crying out for some real emotional and psychological sustenance.
I don't know what form that needs to take, or what it is you really want here, but all I can say categorically is there are no demons, and people's human sufferings/alcoholism/addictions/mental illnesses are not cured by demonology or any other simplistic rituals.
Did you come here, reallyMe, because you want to hear someone say that out loud?
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write: Casting out demons tells me more about the mental health of the person offering deliverance than the person they think is possessed.
um, was this a DIG?
and YES THERE ARE DEVILS. I don't have to prove this to you and hopefully you won't ever have to find it out either.
Other than being bipolar, which is a MOOD disorder, not a MENTAL one, I am quite sane, have a high IQ and know exactly what I speak of, thank you :)
~ReallyME
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Bean,
my definition of sane...I don't have one, since I have never met anyone who is. I don't believe any human being on this planet is sane, to be honest with you.
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and YES THERE ARE DEVILS. I don't have to prove this to you and hopefully you won't ever have to find it out either.
Other than being bipolar, which is a MOOD disorder, not a MENTAL one, I am quite sane, have a high IQ and know exactly what I speak of, thank you
I don't dig at anyone reallyMe- it's not my style. If I have something to say I will do my best to say it with as much good grace as I can muster. If I offend you I am sorry.
Bipolar is a very serious mental illness, yes a mood disorder.
I have it too.
I also consider myself sane! and have a high IQ and abilities.
When were you diagnosed?
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write: I was diagnosed bipolar II and ADD, Dysthymic last April
Bean, I have no clue what your info on Peck meant, but I have seen and heard about his books. I know love is an action and I agree with you on that. Love is a choice and an act, not just a noun. I'm with ya. I'm not sure what it all had to do with me or devils, but ok.
Bean: you just gave me your definition. You also just contradicted yourself (said you were, are you saying you haven't met yourself?).
Actually I'm STILL Meeting myself daily and in fact a little more of me dies that Jesus might live as soon as I notice it creeping in to try and show up or through...as the apostle Paul said "I die daily"
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I have bipolar 1. Been managing it with seroquel + a mild anti-anxiety and tons of therapy and lifestyle changes quite successfully for a couple of years.
I have found relationships big triggers and decided no romantic relationships for 2 years, that was last May. It's been a big help.
Do you have a good doctor?
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write,
sounds like you are in good hands! A dear friend of mine has 2 neices that are bipolar I and are just really basket cases right now, jumping off roofs, trying to kill themselves, etc.
A good doctor? I guess that depends on your definition of it. My doctor is one who puts you on meds and then doesn't reschedule with you until you decide. I'd rather be going to my daughter's doctor. I tried to transfer and my current doc won't let me go and the other doc won't accept me as a new patient, so I'm stuck with who I have. Personally, I would like to find out a way to go OFF ALL MEDS one day and have my more-creative mind back. I may seem pretty witty now, but I know myself, and I can tell that my brain is stifled by this topamax, since it shuts off the messages between my neurons.
~ReallyME
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I will kick the devil's butt and delight in it for the rest of my life!
~ReallyME
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reallyme are your your two nieces bipolar? are they seeing doctors and are they taking medication?taking meds can make the difference between night and day .
why would you want to stop taking it?
it would seem the peace and the calm would be welcome .the ups and downs from the mood swings would be lessened and then give one a chance to review ones situation better. along with your therapist. is this a good plan? it is what i am doing and i have
not been so clear thinking and balanced in years .yes i was worried about my art work. but it has not been effected at all.i still
have paint brushes in hand. lots of hugs moonlight
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I've struggled for years with the meds issue, and finally I only take what I need on a daily basis.
A year ago that was 600 mg daily Seroquel, but at the moment it's just very low doses and an anti-anxiety to keep a sleep pattern.
I would never say I can live without meds, because there are times I need them, but the side effects are annoying sometimes and I think lead a lot of people to discontinue.
To live on minimum meds required a heck of a lot of therapy though, and real lifestyle changes. There are some things I just cannot do without thinking- a lot of driving, long journeys, miss sleep.
Moonlight & reallyMe- do you have particular 'triggers' for mania and depression?
What country are you in? I have found the US much better for mental health services than the UK was.
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Bean,
were you saying that casting devils out of people sounded like fun? "kickin devil butt" as I called it? Yes it is, because the devil doesn't belong tormenting people, any more than mental or psychological illness should have the right to hurt them. That goes for N's and bullies...nobody has the right to victimize another person, period. Since I've seen devils...real ones, and I know that they don't belong bothering people, I delight in making them leave them alone in the name of Jesus.
I get excited with people when they get on meds that help them too, not just when someone finds freedom from demonic forces. I'm not one of those people who think evil spirits cause everything. I'm very balanced in my view of things. The point is, I want to see people helped and free and able to be all they were destined by God to become.
moon, the girls are the neices of a friend of mine. They are trying to get them help.
I am currently on Topomax. I'm not getting off the meds at the moment. I was saying that some day I would love to be healed so that I would not have to take meds, because I do not have as much creative ability as I used to without the meds.
~ReallyME
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write my meds are great right now.i am in the us. well meds are big deal .i do not fight the idea. they are a tool and i have good results along with therapy. i can not believe i told everyone my big bad secret. i have bipolar .doesn't seem so shameful now does it ? oh write i do have the problems with sleep sometimes, lucky i like Tolstoy. his novels
go on forever.ha ha but i am a wreck the next day. what can you do.i just thank goodness i do not do rapid cycling thats rough. i have sailed on Saturn's rings but its not worth the down time. ya know
triggers are when people show deliberate cruelty and manipulation and think they are more worthy than others in the sight of God .
my meds have not had negative effect on my artwork.the core of my creative being must be too strong for meds or the dose is just right.
moonlight
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I'm curious how one is taught to cast out devils, demons, or whatever one chooses to call them (and I'm not necessarily agreeing that they exist, but just wondering about this). It seems as though one would either be "called" to this profession, if that is what it is, or born with a gift, but teaching it seems difficult at best. I would think it would be akin to teaching the ability to be psychic, if you believe that gift can exist within certain people.
Obviously, people can be taught to be ministers, priests and other leaders of faiths (I won't use the term religion since that seems to be a hotbutton), but being able to connect with some demonic force and exorcising it from an individual seems a bit beyond that.
I promise that I am not actually looking for an answer to my musings and don't wish to drag out this discussion any further than it has already gone, but that particular point just really stuck with me and I felt the need to express it.
Brigid
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Brigid or whomever it may concern,
you asked a question about HOW TO cast out devils or how does one train another to do so...did you want an answer or does anyone want an answer to this? If not, I will refrain from comment. If so, I'll be glad to share about my training experience.
~ReallyME
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I'm going to start a specific bipolar thread, this is getting too long for me to read! That's another problem I have- concentrating, and reading on the internet is really hard.
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bean, I posed my question to everyone, so anyone including you, was free to respond. Thank you for letting me know that you particularly are not interested. If anyone IS interested in knowing what deliverance from devils entails, feel free to contact me personally and privately, since it seems this is something so offensive to those of you who choose to remain in the dark about it.
~ReallyME
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ReallyME,
I respect the courtesy with which you've answered folks' remarks.
The topic has brought strong reactions, and you're --mostly :?-- turning the other cheek.
Nice idea to offer PMs.
Hops
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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ReallyME,
I respect the courtesy with which you've answered folks' remarks.
The topic has brought strong reactions, and you're --mostly -- turning the other cheek.
Nice idea to offer PMs.
Hops
I just want to say a teary-eyed thank you for this comment. You could never being to know how much this touched my heart. I tend to have a bit of a narcissistic tendency in me as well that I've really been working to overcome personally. It means a lot to me to hear that Jesus is showing through brighter than my selfish flesh
~ReallyME
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I would agree on- There are people and there is Spirit. But there is demons and devils. For I had been delivered from demons. We all have are "demons" either mentally or physical. Just the Spirit shows others how to deal with them. Glad someone "seen" what I had an help me through the process. cwings
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Bean,
I feel your frustration and admire your restraint.
I see how "those who choose to remain in the dark" was challenging.
I hope we will all be able to hang in for the ride, here.
Or perhaps just let the subect be...do a sort of big-piture stepping away?
I have a feeling that this is an unmoveable area...I'm not sure what the benefit will be to chip at it.
Maybe we can just talk about other things on another thread, so this one doesn't go toxic?
Unless anyone really has a need to drill in further.
What do you think?
Hops
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Bean, Hops,
No need to start another thread because I offered for anyone interested in this information to contact me PRIVATELY. Not sure why you all are so afraid of mere words on a screen that you can choose to ignore if you wish. My comment of "choose to remain in the dark" did not insinuate that anyone did not like me or that I did not like them. "in the dark" means that a person chooses not to KNOW INFORMATION. That does not reflect on who they ARE as a person. I have no clue who any of you are. This is a computer screen and I do not believe a person can truly know someone from chatting in text, sorry; I have learned better over the years about it.
I did not invalidate anyone as a person by offering to talk PRIVATELY to someone who wants information that Bean does not choose to know. After Bean posed a rhetorical question about deliverance, which I thought was pretty much a "baiting" situation (as in, "I know this is something that obviously is very important to you, ReallyME, so I'm going to ask how you do it YET NOT LET YOU ANSWER ME OR ANYONE ELSE), I decided to jump and take MY POWER, by offering anyone who IS interested, an ability to contact me if they want.
I too have dealt with N's and I recognized YOU also trying to silence ME, by posing as being interested in what I do and what is important to me and then, like a horse you yank a carrot away from, yanking back MY RIGHT TO HAVE A VOICE IN RESPONSE.
So rather than put blame on you at first, I did the nobler gesture, I felt, and offered a private convo.
~ReallyME
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Actually, no, there wasn't an apology here, as it was YOU who originally rendered ME voiceless, but feigning interest in "HOW" I cast devils out of people, and then telling me you didn't want an answer. That is akin to offering someone something to drink that they love, and then when they say they would like it, saying "no, you can't have it" with a smile on your face. I'm sure it was not intentional on your part, but that is exactly how it felt to me. Deliverance ministry is something very intimate and precious to me, so please, next time, don't have me for the "how to" of something, if you know you have no intent of allowing me MY VOICE in expressing an answer.
bean: Remember where your right (for POWER, or whatever else you come here looking for) ends and my rights begin.
In case the word "POWER" gets misconstrued here, I was referring to "taking back my power" in a non-codependent way. We all have a right to own our own power, in other words. I saw that I was being rendered VOICELESS, therefore, rather than handle it in the way I now felt compelled to do, I chose to give myself a PRIVATE voice, which also was not tolerated by you, sadly.
I pray you will be able to look within and examine exactly where the situation began and where the VOICELESSNESS really started. This was a really good example of a control tactic to silence someone and not allow them to express themselves. Thank you so much for helping me demonstrate by using ME as the guinea pig, which I'm quite used to and used to confronting and speaking up about as well.
Blessya'll
~ReallyME
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really me,
Actually, no, there wasn't an apology here, as it was YOU who originally rendered ME voiceless, but feigning interest in "HOW" I cast devils out of people, and then telling me you didn't want an answer.
If you go back and read the posts, it was actually me who said I wondered about it, but did not want an answer. Bean merely responded on my behalf when you wanted to give me an answer. It is my right to muse about something, but respectfully ask that you not give me an explanation. I do have issues with the way you have presented yourself as an expert in this area, when, as you said yourself, we have no idea who we are talking to. It's fine if you present something as your opinion or share experiences which may be helpful or useful to others here, but I don't like the absolutes and somewhat bullying presentations of your knowledge of things.
I already know that this discussion is uncomfortable for several individuals here and I don't wish to add to that discomfort by having you expound on how exactly you cast out demons. If I want more info on this topic, I will do an internet search and read the opinion of a wide variety of people or I will contact you directly as you have offered.
Brigid
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Bean,
I'm sorry for directing my comments to you regarding the original post on this topic...it was Brigid I should have addressed.
Brigid,
Sounds good to me. Thank you.
Blessya and I'm not a bully. Not hardly. I am, however, a person with a voice and I appreciate being given the respect of using it in response to a person's question, just as you appreciate having the right to ask a rhetorical one. I see that you have learned to "hold your own." Well, me too.
~ReallyME
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ReallyMe,
I'm sorry. I was feeling an edge of panic that with Brigid's "I'm-musing-but-don't-respond", and your "people who choose to remain in the dark," and Bean's frustration over your not reading the flow carefully....
Anyway, I was feeling afraid it would turn into a "fight." And I didn't want it to. I tend to try to placate people to avoid conflict.
And perhaps it's an Nspot, but I was feeling somewheat responsible because I had stuck up for your right to mention whatever you needed to mention here.
Two thoughts, don't know if they'll help:
ReallyMe, does your ADD possibly make it difficult for you to scroll back up and focus on the specific speaker, so when you respond it's to the right person? I was wondering if that might be more difficult with ADD.
The other: I know I both can't and don't need to control people here so if I feel responsible I'll just have to look at that feeling and learn something about it.
Happy Sunday, all,
Hops
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Anybody,
If this is controlling let me know and I will think about it. Gotta get dressed for church anyway, so I'll think about this board during my favorite part....when we get up and light silent candles for anyone who's on our mind.
Really, I believe I would've felt baited-then-silenced too. Bean, I would've felt frustrated about who-you-talkin-to too. Brigid, I know it's a topic you'd like to go away and I can feel you wrestling to deal with it politely but contain your distaste. Cwings, don't worry, it's safe here. Glad you came.
Everybody, I think there are very good intentions in every speaker here. Strong opinions and deep hearts. I have faith in every one. I think there is a mixture of very quick reactions (I personally have hit Send or Post more than once and wanted to chase the electronic mailman down the block), somewhat judgmental reactions (I am Her Honor and here's my gavel), and a kind of...poking.
I think nobody here is a bully. I am super-sensitized to bullying, it'll set off my radar a mile away. I don't think that's happening. I feel sometimes, just at some moments, a faint drift toward ganging up...a little. But then I sense people stepping back from that little current and engaging directly and politely. That's very impressive to me.
Anyway, just wanted to say that I feel respect, and faith, and more abundantly than anything else--goodwill for every person in this discussion.
It IS a challenging one. I think RealllyMe's offer to keep further detail private was a good intuition and a considerate one. I think Brigid's curiosity and courtesy are both present, and yet, there's ambialence too. No crime there. And Bean, you've been Bean the Dean of Courtesy too.
Me, I just dunno what I'm doing. Except I care about everyone and am glad we speak.
It's Sunday, my favorite day of the week. I sing like a dying frog under a sheet of aluminum foil. But I can listen, and learn.
Love to all,
Hops
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OK FOLKS. THIS IS REAL. There is demons an there IS A Spirit. For reallyme was casted demons out of me. I didn't want to share this for it was personal to me. But its the truth and need to be truthfull in what I stand for.God wants me free. There's two kinds of spirit, evil and good. One torment, one brings freedom.Which one would you prefer? Its like a "N' tormenting you and you want to stop it but don't know how. And someone comes along and "see" what is happening. And helps you understand an be free of this torment. I had a N torment me, it made me numb to my surrounds or life. That what a demon will do, make you numb, don't care etc.. and focus on your inter demons. So thats way this topic is so "hot". For there is issue deep within for me and other who read this. And spurs this debate more, thats how demons or devils do to ya. To stay clear what is really the truth, so you will be in bondage. I'm not standing up for anyone here, just laying my feeling and thought on the table. cwings
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hello cwings you said"There is demons an there IS A SPIRIT.For reallyme was casted demons out of me.I didn't want to share this this for it was personal to me". hi again and welcome to to you I
am not asking about the subject of "devils"or "demons"or of casting them out.I personally just have finished speaking on the subject ,long thread .(YOU CAN GO BACK AND FIND MY VIEWS WAY BACK THERE IF YOU WISH)
I do have a question cwings do you personally know reallyme or are you saying that your veiws are in complete agreement with reallyme .I am confused on that point ,thank you and God Bless
moonlight
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Hops: Two thoughts, don't know if they'll help:
ReallyMe, does your ADD possibly make it difficult for you to scroll back up and focus on the specific speaker, so when you respond it's to the right person? I was wondering if that might be more difficult with ADD.
Actually, until someone explained to me how to highlight the person's name and quote it, I had no clue how to even do that. It has nothing to do with ADD. It has to do with ignorance of how the message board works. :D
Hops: I think nobody here is a bully. I am super-sensitized to bullying, it'll set off my radar a mile away. I don't think that's happening. I feel sometimes, just at some moments, a faint drift toward ganging up...a little. But then I sense people stepping back from that little current and engaging directly and politely. That's very impressive to me.
I enjoy your style of expressing yourself, Hops. Very sensitive and accurate and truthful. I have to say I agree with you here.
Bean, I'm sorry you feel and act out of so much fear and being afraid for, etc
According to my beliefs I have not been given the spirit of fear, but of power, love and of a sound mind, therefore, most of the times, when my mind is lined up with my spirit, it's not fear that controls me. I'm sorry that you see truth as such a frightening thing. Devils are created beings that are not frightening at all, when one knows his/her authority that they have been given over them by Jesus Christ.
Someone (Brigid) wondered aloud how it's possible to become Trained in casting demons out of people.
reallyME, you then responded:
If anyone IS interested in knowing what deliverance from devils entails, feel free to contact me personally and privately, since it seems this is something so offensive to those of you who choose to remain in the dark about it.
You are responding that you'll field questions about deliverance from devils. When the original musing was asking how is one trained. So you see how you've steered the topic to something you'd like to talk about?
I believe I chose to respond with an offer to share about not only my experience of having gone through deliverance but also information in how one casts devils out of a person, but I can't recall exactly what I said originally now because I don't remember the original post. I did not steer the topic anywhere. I merely offered to handle answering questions privately, about training, my personal situation, or whatever...and the offer still stands.
I am interested in -who did this to you- though. Cause it seems there I could get at the root of this tragedy. It sounds tragic to me, that you've been brainwashed into thinking there are devils. That is my honest opinion.
Who "did this to me?" That sounds soooooooooooo sinister. You mean who helped me get free from years of hearing voices in my head telling me to kill myself, kill my children, give up and just die? No need for you to get at the root. I have a spiritual Mom who is working with me in any further needs of inner healing from my past, thanks, and she and I do deliverance on others together in our ministry, being that we have both heard/seen them and seen people tormented by them and watched the freedom that is possible through prayer and counseling.
I need to set some limits with you reallyME, it is apparent to me that that's what I'm trying to do. In case that motive wasn't clear, maybe now it is?
This comment struck me as funny. I assume you are talking about boundaries here. I'm not sure why you said you need to set some with me. For what purpose? Are you the moderator of the list? Are you my teacher? Is this a self-protective statement to own your own power because you sense narcissism in me toward you? Please explain.
~ReallyME
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Ok Bean I'm not a minor, but new to these forums :D
And to moonlight, I know reallyme personally. cwings
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Bean,
It's ok. If you want me to say it's fine for you to not believe in devils or demons, I'm personally fine with that. It's between your Creator and you, dear. I have no need to try and convince someone, especially about those pesky vermin. They get enough attention as it is.
Blessya
~ReallyME
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Bean: It cast a mocking threat upon me. Why? Because I thought: Why in the hell would someone think I'd want to be here or that I'd be proud of dealing with Ns? That is sick, and mean. I'm a victim of abuse. I don't want to get anything because of my pain. I don't want a medal, I don't want to be labeled "strong" or ass-kicking, or for "doing my time" or anything remotely resembling this. ick
Not saying ya meant it, that's just finally what I figured out I was feeling about that.
Oh I don't mind you being pissed at me at all as you said. I am very proud of dealing with N's, proud to be here, proud to be a VICTOR, not a VICTIM. I most certainly meant every word of what I said and I love being seen as "strong" because that gives glory and honor to the ONE who IS my Strength and my Song. I have no problem receiving honor, as the Bible say "give honor to whom honor is due." and "Let another man's lips praise you and not your own." It is healthy to be able to accept and receive a compliment and to be sure of who you are and what you stand for.
If you have a problem being seen a certain way, I'm sorry, but that's about you and not me. I have no issue with it personally whatsoever. I'm thrilled with who God created me to be and with whom I'm becoming for His purpose and plan and glory.
~ReallyME
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The Chance to Love Everything
All summer I made friends
with the creatures nearby -
they flowed through the fields
and under the tent walls,
or padded through the door,
grinning through their many teeth,
looking for seeds,
suet, sugar; muttering and humming,
opening the breadbox, happiest when
there was milk and music. But once
in the night I heard a sound
outside the door, the canvas
bulged slightly - something
was pressing inward at eye level.
I watched, trembling, sure I had heard
the click of claws, the smack of lips
outside my gauzy house -
I imagined the red eyes,
the broad tongue, the enormous lap.
Would it be friendly too?
Fear defeated me. And yet,
not in faith and not in madness
but with the courage I thought
my dream deserved,
I stepped outside. It was gone.
Then I whirled at the sound of some
shambling tonnage.
Did I see a black haunch slipping
back through the trees? Did I see
the moonlight shining on it?
Did I actually reach out my arms
toward it, toward paradise falling, like
the fading of the dearest, wildest hope -
the dark heart of the story that is all
the reason for its telling?
Mary Oliver
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HOPS...HUH?
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Hops The chance to love everything . That chance is always there even when we are scared or we think we see something out of the corner of our eye that could get or confuse us .The chance to love everything is there even when we can not seem to make ourselves understood .
The chance to love everything is always there .Oh dear Lord above !Hops your wisdom and kindness is beyond anything!
What an honor to know you !What an honor to know everyone here!
moon
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HOPS Good luck on getting new job and all your wishes fulfilled
moon
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Wow. Thank you, Moon.
ReallyMe, Mary Oliver is a poet I like a lot...I was reading her last night and that poem reminded me of this thread. I can't imagine a better reading of it than what Moon saw...that's how I saw it too.
And at the end I felt also that she was touching on the dark currents in human beings, our periodic longing for wildness, even when it might be destructive. (So, she escapes the bear-if-it-was-a-bear, but a part of her yearns for it...).
Not me!
Notice To All Bears: Hopalong Is Not Receiving Hairy Visitors. Run Along Now. :P
Hops
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Hi Bean,
For a couple of days I was having trouble with the strong feelings being expressed during parts of this thread, probably because I am also one of the people who asked ReallyME for factual information--out of genuine interest. It did not occur to me that members were becoming frightened or disturbed. If it had occurred to me ahead of time, I wouldn't have asked for the information! I tend to self-censor if I think someone will become upset. Overly responsible, I guess.
Then you said this:
I am not. That's my goal. To not let fear paralyze me. To act despite fear. To me, I feel that makes me truly courageous.
Where is the courage in acting if you're not afraid? Anyone can do it, in that case.
Now, I think I understand part of your motivation better. It is something I do myself. Purposely go into situations that I'm afraid of. Sometimes I do that because I feel I have the right to exist and behave as other people do--it's a way of standing up for myself. Sometimes I do it just to see what happens. That usually doesn't work out too well. :? And sometimes I'm just feeling too weak to try and I give myself a break. That's why I haven't posted in a few days.
Sometimes the responses on these threads are so thorough. Sometimes I get overwhelmed at all the analysis. I haven't read most of these books, haven't researched all the topics, can't even always remember who said what on which thread. To me it is satisfying enough to learn to converse with all these new people, hear your stories, and maybe share a couple of my own. Usually. This weekend I was weak. I checked in every so often and thought, oh great, another place I don't fit in.
Then I read Bean's idea of facing fear and figured I didn't have to give up. I can try again and work through it. So, I guess it was a good idea to keep checking in. :)
Pennyplant
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Pennyplant: It did not occur to me that members were becoming frightened or disturbed. If it had occurred to me ahead of time, I wouldn't have asked for the information! I tend to self-censor if I think someone will become upset. Overly responsible, I guess.
Um, ok, I have to comment on this one. frightened or disturbed, by what? information? text? I don't understand and I don't get it.
I'm glad it hadn't occurred to you ahead of time, because I'm pretty sure that even self-censoring here would be considered rendering yourself as voiceless.
~ReallyME
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One more comment to Pennyplant or whomever it might need to be addressed to, regarding people becoming frightened or disturbed by hearing about devils, demons, deliverance...if they don't exist, then what is there to be afraid of? That I really do not understand?
~ReallyME
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Hey Penny,
Jeez, you really are hard on yourself. (Wonder whose internalized voice that is...? :?)
I think it's okay for people to chime in at whatever level of energy or concenration they can summon at that time. If were "graded" people on their posts, people would just peter out. We all have ebbs and flows of energy and focus. And some threads are a lot more hard work than others, just depending on how they strike or interest each individual. We're all different, and I like that.
I think this is a "Pass/Fail" board, and you PASS.
:) Hops
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I am going to have to check out this Alice Miller person. Any particular title I should start with?
Speaking of good writers, I was thinking of recommending A Fine Romance by Judith Sills, PhD, to Write or anybody who needs some proppling up in the idea of seeking a healthy relationship.
(Maybe I'm talking to myself, I think I need to read it again.)
Hops
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Hiya Hops, **good luck** for tomorrow!
Alice Miller, think I’ll have a go:
Drama of being a child
The truth will set you free
Her other books are hard going: ‘Thou shalt not be aware’ (society’s betrayal of the child) and For your own good (the roots of evil in childrearing) do a good job of debunking Freud’s ideas of infantile sexuality and the Oedipus complex (thank goodness). She’s German (I think) and talks a lot about the Nazis and Hitler, the whys and hows (which is fascinating); plus she talks about literary figures (Kafka mainly, from memory) and how their childhood shows in their work. She talks mainly about physical abuse: beatings and so on. That's the German heritage.
It’s stuff to make you cry as you read. http://www.alice-miller.com/sujet/framen.htm
I prefer Dorothy Rowe. She’s straightforward, plain-speaking (Australian) and offers practical ways of changing our thinking. She explains major ideas – like how we use money in the world (The Real meaning of Money) and how we seem to need conflict (Friends and Enemies, our need to love and hate) – and explains how we could think our way out of our current global problems, including war.
I think lots of people don’t like her (she doesn’t sell in the US for example) because she doesn’t offer any quick-fix or 12-step cures (she pretty much derides parts of the 12-step idea). Oh and she’s the most unromantic and realistic person I’ve read, which suits me! And she gives talks at 'the Anarchist Bookfair' in London every year, which i go to and think is a hoot. It's so......contradictory! (wanna buy an official Anarchist logo'd t-shirt?!! :?: :roll:)
Well that’s my interpretation. http://www.dorothyrowe.com.au/setup.htm (lots of published articles here).
What has helped you most Hops?
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ANARCHISTS? HITLER? ANTI-12 STEP PROGRAMS? sounds exhillhirating...not
and people say there are no devils? the anarchists are some of the clearist proofs that there ARE, imo
~ReallyME
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Oh ReallyMe you nearly had me there, I almost took you seriously until I thought, “don’t be silly P, she can’t be serious, that’s just too much”.
I guess you’re pulling my leg as we Brits would say (do you say that?) and I bet you’re interested?
Enjoy: http://www.anarchistbookfair.org/ (last year’s event but chock full of interesting info)
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Hello Portia and Reallyme,
There must be some" leg pulling" going on.Are we going to have a serious talk about demons and Hitler?
really mild mannered moon is not laughing.
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Hoppy--I am hard on myself, but I used to be much, much worse. :shock: This is the new and improved version. Plus, I was pretty depressed this weekend. Slowly climbing out.
Bean--Thanks for the chocoloate chip cookie--my favorite. :D Also, I can identify with this:
"And so there are often long periods in [therapuetic work] [in which there is a dependence on] compulsion to repeat..for this repetition is the only manifestation of the true self."
So it could be healthy for you to both 1) have very little to say and 2) behave the way you did with your Mom. Sometimes, just because it doesn't feel good, doesn't mean we're not making progress.
bean
I have wondered why I write things out, read them many times, go over in my mind the things that make me sad or hurt. It makes sense when you put it this way. I figured I was making progress so wasn't too worried about the way I go about it. But it is such hard work. Discouraging sometimes. The only way I can tell sometimes that I'm making progress is that the compulsion to repeat lessens over time, especially if I have given myself permission to "indulge" in it. Repressing it makes it more out of control. That afternoon with my mother I kind of knew what I was doing was hurting me, but I felt like I was in control of it and I didn't really believe the things I was saying about myself--it really was like a script not like an expression of my real opinion of myself.
Portia--thanks for the titles and the websites. Both Miller and Rowe sound interesting and helpful. Yes, we Americans do like quick fixes. Will we ever learn?!? Maybe some day..... And we also say "pulling my leg" here. Hee hee, wonder what the history of THAT phrase is.....
Pennyplant
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Hi Moon, no, I won’t talk about Hitler and demons in the same breath, but Hitler is one of (if not the ultimate) examples of childhood cruelty being acted out by the child as adult.
As Miller says in this article: http://www.naturalchild.com/alice_miller/adolf_hitler.html
“Like every other child, Hitler was born innocent, only to be raised, as were many children at the time, in a destructive fashion by his parents and later to make himself into a monster. He was the survivor of a machinery of annihilation that in turn-of-the-century Germany was called "child-rearing" and that I call "the concealed concentration camp of childhood," which is never allowed to be recognized for what it is.”
Very informative reading but hard-going.
((((((Moonlight))))))
PennyP, pulling my leg, I wonder where it comes from? ....
Now I’m gone....
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Hi Portia I see connection . thanks I will read Miller Hard going stuffs ok
moon
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Portia, I would like to know more about Adolph's upbringing. I'm going to do the research. Always knew there was a childhood connection.
~ReallyME
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write,
kind of wondering if you might share what you think the forces are that one can best tap for the best fulfillment...
in terms of within the realm of the physical material and what might lie beyong that one can tap into in a fullfilling positive way.
Personally, I believe in intelligent design as being more scientifically feasible than the other options .
Here is a paste of a review of a book by a m.d. The book is about his experiences in treating multiple personalities.
Book Description
Join Dr. Allison on his continuing journey into the bipartite human mind, where demons frolic and angels do not fear to tread. In the first edition of this book (1980), Dr. Allison told astonishing stories about his dissociated patients' parading alter-personalities and other psychic beings before him. Now, in this 15-year follow-up, he answers many of the questions that intrigued him then. In doing so, he opens up new vistas for students of the human psyche.
Dr. Allison's discovery of the Inner Self Helper, or ISH, has illuminated the spiritual aspect of the human mind - an aspect feared and thus ignored by others in the field. In fact, guided by his multiple-personality patients' Inner Self Helpers, the author successfully "exorcized" thought- forms masquerading as evil demons. This permitted him to get back to doing the essential hypnotherapy. Only by understanding parapsychological forces as well as his patients' deepest fears and hatreds did he shepherd ma! ny of them back to psychological wholeness. This book describes the inner Self Helpers and tells how they operate - and how their protective energy can be tapped in an alliance beneficial to the patient.
About the Author
Ralph B. Allison, M.D., a retired Life Fellow of the American Psychiatric Association, was educated at Occidental College, UCLA School of Medicine, and Stanford Medical Center. In 1995 he was honored with the Cornelia B. Wilbur Award of the International Society for the Study of Dissociation(ISSD); the Society noted his "relentless efforts, perserverance, and determination in studying, diagnosing, and treating patients with dissociative disorders." Now living in Los Osos, California, Ralph Allison studies, teaches and writes about how the two parts of the human mind really operate.