Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Kheng on April 01, 2006, 10:39:11 PM
-
I was wondering whether anyone here have successfully dealt with or is still dealing with feeling like a constant failure. Ever since I can remember I think I am a failure if other ppl don't approve of me or my ideas, or if I say dumb things or do stupid things. How do you learn to disassociate your thoughts, words, and actions from thinking you're a failure as an person and in life? What have been your tried and true technique(s) of extricating yourself from feeling like a constant failure? I know I'm not a failure, but I can't seem to extricate or disassociate myself from thinking that way.
Thanks for any thoughts.
Kheng
-
Kheng,
I just want to ride your coat-tails because I am feeling like a failure too. Thanks for posting this, I need insights and answers too.
Hops
-
Maybe we can forgive ourselves the way we might forgive a stranger or a friend or someone we love who has made a mistake or failed to live up to expectations. Maybe forgiveness can be a starting point.
Pennyplant
-
Triumph and Failure: the great imposters!!!
I think BKS Iyengar said that.
I do believe that as long as we see ourselves through the eyes of others (or what we THINK they might be thinking of us), we get a free ride to not taking responsibility for ourselves. Now, before you go pounding yourself again for "my opinion" of you(caught ya huh?....I know, I used to be there), please know that nothing any one else says, does, thinks about us REALLY has anything to do with us. It's their chosen reaction to a situation based on their own head space, not necessarily ours (unless you have just hit them or something....you get the idea).
This self thinking/self attitude/self esteem is at the core of everything. Through our thoughts, feelings and beliefs, we create our life experience.....so changing that self thinking is ESSENTIAL. Good for you for getting right to the heart of the matter (took me 46 years or so).
I made strides in therapy after a huge personal setback, that I see now was fundamental in my change. No one changes when they are fairly comfortable, so if you are in some sort of "pain", well, that's a good sign changes are in order! So "pain" can be our ally in a way.
So in answer to your question about HOW I got out of that negative self image rut: I think therapy, both traditional and alternative did this for me. I think it forced me to analyze and self evaluate and in doing so, look long and HARD (no more only moderately uncomfortable for a bit, but HARD work) at who I really am, and what I am really worth. I finally decided I am worth a lot, and certainly a lot more than the hapless victim of the N's of the world that I was.
Most people I know with feelings of worthlessness (the kind you talk about , I think) are really quite good people, they just put others first SOOOOO much, they've lost their own seniority over their lives. The people who are TRULY feeling like crap about themselves, but will NEVER look at it, and instead cover it up with hard layers upon hard layers of meanness and selfishness, well, they are the personality disordered, like the N's most of us are recovering from being with.
Do you have a counselor or therapist you trust? Might be a good time to find one. Good luck, and by the way....you are already WAY on your way to healing....this seemingly little step you took in asking....is HUGE!!!
-
Kheng,
If you constantly view everything in your life as a failure (which would be impossible--the actuality, not the perception), then obviously the problem lies within. The within needs to be healed, the self-worth allowed to grow, and the value you place on yourself and your accomplishments needs to have more weight than your perception of what others may think and feel.
Easier said than done, I know, but certainly doable. Do you have a therapist? Good therapy can help to move you off that stuck place of uncertainty and sense of failure. Do you think you are suffering from depression? If you are only able to see the negative aspects of your life right now, I would guess that is the case. Meds could perhaps help with that. Do you have friends and/or family that support you? If so, lean on them for help. If not, perhaps a support group could be helpful.
I think if you can find one new thing to conquer which can give you a sense of accomplishment, you can begin to see the many other accomplishments currently being buried by your lack of self-esteem. It could be as simple as growing a garden, learning a new sport or knitting a beautiful scarf. It could also help to keep a journal which focuses on the positive things you accomplished day-to-day.
If you have children, your negative energy can wear off on them and they too will begin to only see the failures rather than the accomplishments. This reason alone, would be an impetus to finding more positive energy to put forth.
We all have failures in our lives, but when we can get to the point of seeing them as a reason to change our path or find a different direction, they no longer are failures, but opportunities for new successes.
Blessings,
Brigid
-
Hello Kheng:
Welcome to the board. Here's my take:
What we think greatly effects how we feel.
I read that, can't even remember where or when now, but it was years ago and years ago and it stuck to the inside of my head like a pancake sticks to the ceiling upon the great flip (if I'm flipping it, that is. :D :D).
What we think.........
The thoughts that come into our heads (or ........that we allow to remain there).
Those thoughts generate feelings in us......think of a lovely ocean and the waves lapping against the shore, imagine the spray in the air, the hot sand, the birds dipping and diving, the sun shining, the warm breeze, fluffy white clouds, sailboats, people laughing and enjoying the lovely scene.
What feelings start up while thinking such thoughts? Calm? Serene? Relaxed? Happy even? Peaceful? etc.
Greatly.............
Not just a litte bit but GREATLY........our thoughts greatly effect our feelings.
:shock: :shock: :shock:
Greatly is an important word. This is big stuff. Important stuff, imo.
I embraced this idea and have put it to use in my life ever since. Think good thoughts = feel pretty good.
Much of the time. Not all of the time but usually.
So.........picture yourself successful, comfortable, relaxed, and think things like:
"I am good at what I do.
I do my best.
I'm ok.
I'm a success in my view.
I can and will achieve what I want most."
ETc.
Ofcourse, it took years and years of other people drilling into our heads, with their nasty words, the idea that we are/will be/will remain .....failures. All of those words produced thoughts in our heads that generated feelings. Over and over and over until finally......the message stuck. Finally......we believed ourselves failures.
:( :(
It stands to reason, then, that it will take quite a bit of work to undo that. Plenty of thoughts are going to have to pass through our heads and lots and lots of pictures of ourselves as successful.......over and over...
until the message sticks and we believe.....we are successful. :roll: Yep. I said work. But it's worth it. 8)
It's a little like brain washing oneself but hey.......if our abusers can do it.......we can do better eh? :D
I say......try it. Try paying attention to thoughts that aren't helping you. Banish those little nasties. Argue:
"No, I'm not a failure. I'm not going to think like that any more."
Then think of something you've done or said that you are proud of or of something that you like, enjoy, or look forward too. Every time one of these "I'm a loser" thoughts tries to creep in (failure = loser ?? close, I think).....every single time......nip those thoughts in the bud. Stop 'em. Argue 'em. Replace 'em.
They say that positive statements are accepted more easily than negative.....especially when positive change is what the aim is.
The thing is.......you are the only one who hears those derogatory, insulting, self-reducing thoughts, the only one who feels sad, shamed, belittled, whatever.....and you.......are the only one who can ...
stop those thoughts in their tracks and send them packing
...and replace them with better ones.........which will indeed help you to feel better.
It's darn near guaranteed!!
:D Sela
-
Thank you all for your inputs!
More recently, I realized that most of my life I've thought of myself as a failure one way or the other. Carrying around that mentality about myself has cost me much happiness and satisfaction in life and makes me live in constant fear. The crazy thing is, intrinsically, I know I'm not a failure. What I've managed to accomplish in life testifies to this truth about me. However, I don't always conform to logic, particularly, when the things I do, think, say fit into my definition of failure. The association I subconsciously make to my definition of failure is an everpresent consuming force in my self-perception. It is a big step for me to realize that this is the association I make. I don't think I've been able to make the connection clearly before. I am on a quest to change my definition of failure and change what I equate with failure. In the past and even now I equate these things with being a failure which has led me to live a life of fear on so many levels of my life.
-no long term relationship = personal failure, something must be wrong with me. How hopeless I am. But when I think about it, probably the reason for this is because I don't go out much. That explains it.
-no circle of close friends = I'm boring. I am not interesting. What a loser I am. How sad and pathetic. I have nothing to offer.
-I feel anxiety-stricken around people = I can't seem to overcome that mentality. Here I am failing at yet another thing.
-I find it hard and can't seem to connect with people beyond the superficial = I fail in relationships. I feel like such a loser and out of touch with people. Come to think of it, I think the reason why I don't sustain close friendship is I have too many unhappy feelings associated with social events.
-and so on...The most minute thing can trigger a sense of failure for me...like making a simple ordinary mistake.
Sela, I wish I can just say those things which you have suggested and viola I'm feeling much better already. I'm afraid my perception of myself in a state of failure are too deeply rooted and entangled during my teenage years and later years that just telling myself certain things is not strong enough to dissuage or disentangle me from my perception of myself as a failure. I wish it could! I've read many self-help books and tried many different avenues of going about my upside down thinking. But none have made a lasting permanent difference for me yet. Searching for a sensible and wise therapist seems to be the next best thing to do. The hard and seemingly daunting part for me is finding a good fit.
Fear is such a strong force. How did we end up developing all sorts of fears in our lives? Why do some ppl fear this and not that? Sure, past unpleasant impressionable experiences can bring about fear. But why are some people able to move beyond that and not others? I think the biggest fear I have is fear of failure. Maybe if I don't fear failure than it will not have such a relentless hold on me. The very way thing I try to run away from is the very thing that constantly taunts and chases after me like a monster in a dark alley.
BTW, I used to come on this board awhile back. I went by the name Butterfly.
Kheng
-
Kheng,
It was just a couple of weeks ago that I journaled about this very thing. Now don't get me wrong, I don't have it all figured out and in no way do I want to minimize or diminish how you're feeling. I've wrestled with that booger, 'failure' too. But one thing I know for sure is that for the most part others are too consumed with their own failures and or successes to spend much time trying to catch me in the crosshairs to study my failures and successes. I like how Toby Keith says it in that song, I Wanna Talk About Me...
Uh huh, that’s right
We talk about your work, how your boss is a jerk,
We talk about your church and your head when it hurts.
We talk about the troubles you’ve been havin’ wit your brother
’bout your daddy and your mother and your crazy ex-lover.
We talk about your friends and the places that you’ve been,
We talk about your skin and the dimples on your chin.
The polish on your toes and the run in your hose,
And God knows we’re gonna talk about your clothes.
You know talkin’ about you makes me smile, but every once in a while,
I wanna talk about me, I wanna talk about i
Wanna talk about number 1 oh my, me, my,
What I think, what I like, what I know, what I want, what I see.
I like talkin’ about you, you, you, you usually, but occasionally
I wanna talk about me! (me, me, me,) I wanna talk about me-e-e. (me, me, me)
We talk about your dreams and we talk about your schemes,
Your high school team and your moisturizer cream.
We talk about your nana up in muntzi, indiana,
We talk about your grandma down in alabama.
We talk about your guys of every shape and size,
The ones that you despize and the ones you idolize.
We talk about your heart, ’bout your brains and your smarts,
And your medical charts and when you start.
You know talkin’ about you makes me grin, but every now and then,
I wanna talk about me, I wanna talk about i,
Wanna talk about number 1 oh my, me, my.
What I think, what I like, what I know, what I want, what I see.
I like talkin’ about you, you, you, you usually, but occasionally
I wanna talk about me! (me, me, me,) I wanna talk about me-e-e (me, me, me)
(I wanna talk about me) mmmm me, me, me, me, me
(I wanna talk about me) mmmm me, me, me, me, me
You, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you,
I wanna talk about me!
I wanna talk about me, I wanna talk about i,
Wanna talk about number 1 oh my, me, my.
What I think, what I like, what I know, what I want, what I see,
Oh I like talkin’ about you, you, you, you usually, but occasionally,
I wanna talk about me! (me, me, me) I wanna talk about me-e-e
I wanna talk about me! (me, me, me) no me-e-e! (me, me, me)
teartracks
-
Hey Guys,
Gee, I'm sorry about that awful glow thing on the Toby Keith lyrics to I wanna talk about me. It's late and I can't seem to find the modify feature. Maybe later.
teartracks
-
Awwwwwww (((((((((((Kheng/Butterfly)))))))))):
How are you doing? I'm not sure if you will remember me...........I was GFN, before Sela? I remember you and have thought of you and hoped you're doing ok. Glad to see you posting again.
Sela, I wish I can just say those things which you have suggested and viola I'm feeling much better.
Yes, sorry about that. I forgot to say that this is neither simple nor easy to accomplish (nor a quick fix). Ofcourse, you're right...... it's doubtful anyone can just say things and suddenly feel much better. It isn't as simple as that. It takes time and effort and consentration and perseverance and determination and commitment. We're not talking about a couple of pep talks or a few lines said almost unnoticed per day. This is war!!!
War against all of the bad, sad, rude, nasty, hurtful, untrue, cruel, ignorant, unjustified, belittling, mean, etc, etc, remarks people have made to us ....maybe in our whole lifetime....and especially against those.......we believed...........accepted......and even maybe repeated to ourselves, or at least.......any words/ideas we have allowed to remain....repeating themselves.........in our heads.
So.......to work.......this method will take just as many, just as varied, just as frequent (or more so)......basically.......just as powerful or maybe even a more powerful messages/sets of messages that must be sent in......like troopers.........to war against all negativity residing there.
And when those troopers arrive........they will then stand strong and do their second duty (which is really just more work that we must help them with.......to consciously pay attention to our thoughts and fight off........those that are not helping.........which might also be considered the same as: destroy the enemy (kill all nasty, useless, deflating thoughts as soon as they appear).
Simple? Not at all. Easy. Not a bit. Worth it? You bet. :D 8)
I understand exactly what you mean, I think.........in that there is a big difference between thinking "I am not a failure" and feeling: "I am not a failure". The thing I guess I'm really promoting here is that the first leads to the second........with time and consistent work.
For example.......
-no long term relationship = personal failure, something must be wrong with me. How hopeless I am. But when I think about it, probably the reason for this is because I don't go out much. That explains it.
You've done a good job of looking at this and finding a reason for it.......trying to understand it. There may be further reasons and more to understand but the bottom line is......understanding it doesn't do a dang thing to stop it.....stop the thought, I mean.
So......to begin.......as an example....... take the the thought: "No long term relationship = personal failure".
Do you believe this? Is this a fact in your mind? What does it feel like after thinking this? Would it help to change it?
If so......the idea has to be replaced with something that might also be a reasonable belief, but one that induces better feelings about yourself. Like:
"No long term relationship = personal Independence" or "No long term relationship = personal preference" or "No long term relationship = Looking for the right mate" or "No long term relationship = The right person hasn't come along yet"
Plus.........the biggies:
"Something must be wrong with me" HAS TO BE CHANGED in order to a) feel happier and b) attract the right kind of person. So think of some reasonable replacement thoughts like:
"I am a good person who is still looking" or "The right match hasn't happened yet but it will" or "I am working on improving my attitude" or "I have hope to meet someone right for me some day" or "I will find a new social outlet I enjoy, where I will meet people" or whatevertheheck thoughts BUILD rather than DEPLETE your self confidence.
Are you attracted to people with low self confidence, who think belittling thoughts and express disappointment in themselves? I think we have to strive to be what we want and especially to attract what we want. What do you think?
And the MASTER trick...........every single time the thought: "Something must be wrong with me" starts to emerge, sticks it's grimey little paws on your brain cells and tries to assert itself and strangle your self confidence...........it MUST BE STOPPED....in it's tracks, that thought, it must be evacuated and expelled!! It's not doing you any good to think like that......is it?
A therapist sounds like a nice idea too, even if it takes some searching to find one you feel comfy with. I'm sure it will be worth the effort and also a help to have another person to help you find weapons that work against self-destruction.
However.......all consistent, positive suggestions you make to yourself and the more you persevere at stopping all destructive thinking......... will take you a long way toward feeling better.
But it does take time and effort, no doubt, and consistency and determination. It's a bit like trying to recover from an addiction. You have to want it really badly.......to rid yourself of the stuff that's controlling your life and making it miserable.
Kinda like going on a diet.......of only good thoughts. To lose the negativity that clogs up the brain.
That's my opinion, ofcourse. :D It takes a certain discipline and dedication but you're worth it!! You are!!
:D Sela
-
Hello Sela It's like letting yourself breathe a little easier and then you let yourself think yeah lets see if I drop some of these negative thoughts what will happen? I can try this on for size and do it as an experiment. I can see how it feels and works.
Yes it seems so simple to people that were raised in a home with supportive parents but another world to those of us that were not
raised in that environment. Thank You This is something we all need to remember and the more we do it the easier it can get.
Moonlight
-
Thanks, Sela, for explaining just how intense and involved it is to change those negative thoughts that play over and over again in our minds, mine anyway! I ALWAYS have trouble replacing the old phrases with new positive ones. Part of the trouble for me, I think, is that it goes deeper than just the words forming in my mind automatically, which is what does happen with me. But in fact, my entire personality was formed around such thinking. I am built of such ideas. The consistancy of "me" is permeated with those messages.
If only I could "sift" myself, be left with the basic ingredients of "me", and then add in the new good ones. That old crap could go out with the trash.
Hi Moonlight, I do sometimes pick something small to experiment with. It works best if it is something that I know happens all the time with certain people or situations. Then I can rehearse in my mind and be ready with the new words or action that I want to try out. Mostly, though, what is happening with me is that I'm just backing off of things. I used to just jump into lots of things, thinking I had to, I felt responsible all the time. But it often got me into tons of trouble. Saying the wrong thing, annoying people by interfering, and feeling stressed and overwhelmed as I took a lot of grief that way. So, the thing I do the most now is step back and not get into things to begin with. That decreases the failures right off the bat. It feels like I'm letting myself off the hook now and before I didn't do that.
Kheng, it sounds like you might be shy or anxious. My own examples of "experiments" probably don't apply to what you want to accomplish. Though I am shy too and sometimes anxious. I swing between over-doing it and jumping right in to being too insecure to do anything sometimes. I do think though, that it might be okay to let yourself off the hook like I do with me every day. Break down your goals into extremely manageable steps, simple tasks. Give yourself all the time and space you need while continuing to go forward. Like Sela said, it took a long time to get to this point. It will take some time to grow the new you. The real you, actually.
I often wonder why society seems to value the gregarious, noisy, busy people of the world. That is not in everyone's nature to be that way. And what a mess if everyone was that way. Where I work, we have some very, very quiet people and they do go under-appreciated. I don't know why. They are nicer and more helpful and reliable. And if you take a moment to talk together, they often have a great sense of humor and interesting things to say. The ones who jabber all the time can be fun or exciting. But I don't understand how that is better. But in fact, those people do get more of what they ask for. Well, they ask. The quiet ones don't. I wish there were someone who would look out for everyone in a more fair way. I do feel that I am one of the people who is neglected. Who doesn't always have something clever to entertain people with. In comparison I do feel less valued, less successful. Once in awhile I will remember--quit comparing myself. If I have to compare, then I remind myself, who are the people here that I really like and value? Are they always the entertaining ones? No. They are the nice ones, the hard-working ones. People more like me. If I value them, I should also be able to value me. And no, the loud ones might not care so much. But why do I want to please them anyway? I have to quit valuing the wrong qualities. It is still something I have to teach myself. But at least now I see it. I used to just accept the dominant ideas of what kind of people were "better" than me. I don't really agree anymore. But I still have to keep telling myself over and over. Have to keep re-learning it over and over.
It sure does take time and effort.
Pennyplant
-
Hi all:
Hey Moon! You got it! The more we do it the easier it gets (like most things, I guess). Consistency is sooo important.
Hiya PP: Thanks for your thanks. That was nice. I appreciate that you appreciate the time and effort it takes to think that one through and put it into words. So thanks for noting that and saying thanks.
You wrote:
Part of the trouble for me, I think, is that it goes deeper than just the words forming in my mind automatically, which is what does happen with me
I don't think you are unique with this trouble. I think it's practically a given for most people. It's not just words........that caused the trouble and just words won't fix it. Words are the beginning.
Words are like the battery igniting the engine. But it's the engine that really has all of the power. Still, without a battery, the engine can't go and replacing a dead battery with a fresh, new one will make everything run a lot smoother.
Along with words....there needs to be pictures....visualizations......really seeing ourselves the way the new, positive words are depicting. It has to become the new movie we watch in our heads. The old one, has to be banned! It's obscene and should never have been allowed.
For me......the most important step of all was the easiest. Making a decision.
I decided that this idea makes sence and thus to accept it, embrace it, put it to use and rely on it.
So far, it has not failed me. What we think does greatly effect how we feel.
But we have to decide what to think and then stick with that decision.
:D Sela
-
Sela,
My deep thanks, too, for that hard and articulate work.
This makes the third of your posts I've been so specifically helped by.
I know what you mean, PP, about deeper than words. But I swear you are more than those negative thoughts, and I think some of them you have to peel off one at a time like an octopus tentacle. That's when it feels overwhelming. But though it hasn't yet happened I am feeling that it really, really could...my next hope in thinking about what Sela wrote is that maybe there are also times when a big huge wall of negative thoughts just crumbles. As though chipping away at thought after thought is like saw-strokes on huge tree. It feels as though each stroke is enormous effort, but then there's one more, and the tree falls.
That's what I hope for anyway (and need a better image than tree-murder, but you get my drift.)
Hops
-
Hi Bean,
Thanks for your compliment and words of encouragement. I think I do have many wonderful qualities, that if I list all of them, they would run for pages. There are so many, I don't know where to start :shock: That's my problem. Just being sarcastic. But you have a good point in what you said about making a list of the wonderful qualities I have. Your information on finding a decent T was very useful info for me. Thanks!
Teartracks,
I like the song. I'm glad you posted it. I also like the bold bright red highlight of it. To me, it screams out...read me! read me! And that I did. No worries, I wasn't blinded by its brightness. 8)
Sela,
I definitely remember you! :D And I am glad you remember me. That puts a smile on my face :) The things you said makes a lot of sense to me. You are just full of ideas, aren't you. Thanks for sharing what you've found useful in you life. Thanks for speaking from your perspective. It makes my life more enriching to hear what others have to say from their experience and knowledge of what works for them.
Moonlight,
I agree with you 110% that its seems so simple to people who were raised in a home with supportive parents but it is a different ball game for us who were not raised in emotionally supportive homes.
Pennyplant,
I'm not exactly sure what you mean by what you said, "the consistency of "me" is permeated with those messages." Maybe I'm just too lazy to read more thoroughly, that is why I don't see the connection. :? I don't think I am naturally shy. I think the anxiety I have often makes me have a quiet personality.
Hopalong,
I appreciate your honesty that you are also interested in this subject and working on it too. That makes me feel less alone.
Brigid,
I agree with what you said. I definitely keep a journal. I would be totally voiceless without an outlet such as a journal.
Mum,
Thanks for your positive outlook! I, too, feel that this is a positive step for me.
I find it very comforting and reassuring to read all your perspectives and things you find useful in your lives...on this thread and other ones as well. I appreciate them all. For me, I see things clearer when I just allow myself to slow down with my thoughts. In the stillness of my reflection, I can start to see things clearer and truer. I find that I don't want to change anything about me. Or even adopt the idea of changing. I just want to clear away some of the clutter a bit....to see things clearer. In my perspective, growth will naturally happen, when there's true understanding of the nature of why we do the things we do and what brings on those trigger. My focus is on the former, not necessarily on the latter.
Thanks you all for contributing your voices to this thread. There's much beauty in that!
Kheng
-
Kheng,
Great post. I agree with Pennplant, it is a great place to start.
Maybe we can forgive ourselves the way we might forgive a stranger or a friend or someone we love who has made a mistake or failed to live up to expectations. Maybe forgiveness can be a starting point.
Pennyplant
seasons
-
Hey ((((((((Hops))))))))))
You're so very welcome.
Glad you're smiling Kheng! And that you are considering ideas and other perspectives. Hope it all helps.
:D Sela
-
One thing is for sure - if we all walked around "unzipped" we would look much more alike than not. I wonder if you are comparing your insides to other people's outsides. People tend look very "together" on the outside. We do not run around (for the most part) displaying all of our dirty laundry and our fears and phobias for the world to see. I am not necessarily saying this is an unhealthy thing. It just is what it is. More often than not, though, we gauge our okayness with how we perceive ourselves in contrast to how okay we perceive others to be.
Well... This can be dangerous if you do not have at least some people in your life who tell the truth (you know, people that tell you what is really going on in their lives - expose at least some of their warts). We all have them. Make an effort to find some people who speak the truth and return the favor by speaking it yourself.
One thing I do know is that you have probably been conditioned to doubt yourself if you have had intimate relationships with a narcissistic personality. One thing I have to remind myself about is that I am playing 8-tracks when I should be listening to CD's. These are old and outdated tapes. The messages are no longer valid. Resist the urge to listen to them.
-
Pennyplant,
I'm not exactly sure what you mean by what you said, "the consistency of "me" is permeated with those messages." Maybe I'm just too lazy to read more thoroughly, that is why I don't see the connection. :? I don't think I am naturally shy. I think the anxiety I have often makes me have a quiet personality.
Kheng, I just meant that I have internalized the negative ideas and thoughts. They have become a part of my nature. It is easy enough to say positive things to myself. It is hard to incorporate the positive ideas and believe them. I have to change myself, not only my thought patterns.
I was just guessing about the shy part. I know someone who seems shy but really he is quiet because he worries that he will say something and be judged as weird or odd or not smart. I can understand where anxiety would also do the same thing to someone. Instead of guessing what you are like, Kheng, I'll just read your posts as they come along and see what you're like. I didn't mean to put something on you that doesn't fit.
One thing is for sure - if we all walked around "unzipped" we would look much more alike than not. I wonder if you are comparing your insides to other people's outsides. People tend look very "together" on the outside. We do not run around (for the most part) displaying all of our dirty laundry and our fears and phobias for the world to see. I am not necessarily saying this is an unhealthy thing. It just is what it is. More often than not, though, we gauge our okayness with how we perceive ourselves in contrast to how okay we perceive others to be.
Well... This can be dangerous if you do not have at least some people in your life who tell the truth (you know, people that tell you what is really going on in their lives - expose at least some of their warts). We all have them. Make an effort to find some people who speak the truth and return the favor by speaking it yourself.
One thing I do know is that you have probably been conditioned to doubt yourself if you have had intimate relationships with a narcissistic personality. One thing I have to remind myself about is that I am playing 8-tracks when I should be listening to CD's. These are old and outdated tapes. The messages are no longer valid. Resist the urge to listen to them.
This is a great way to put it, Sheriff. Pretty vivid, too!!!
It is quite a trick, this unzipping. It requires trust on both sides. If you share too much, it scares people off. They probably worry about the same thing. I tend to be a truthful person. Sometimes people can't take it. But sometimes people realize what a gift it is to know that someone is usually honest. I know I would rather have the truth from others. I like the warts!!!
Pennyplant
-
Hi Anewsheriff and all
Here I am at 52 coming to this understanding about N-Dad !Better late than never.I am now looking bravely at N-spots .I have been told I have
a bad habit of interrupting people.I feel like how could I not have known that I do this some times? I am looking at this behavior
and I am looking at it as a bad habit I picked up and now realize I can quit doing it.I do feel bad about doing it also other n spots like trying to get approval .This stuff pretty basic huh! I am connecting the dots THANKS!
Moonlight
-
HI ALL I have just looked at the post above good example of interrupting opps I will work on it some more.
The idea of being unzipped sure would be uniting would it not? I Have seen a lot of people in my life that "look together"
that I knew were not.I do not know if being a "hippie" has anything to do with it but I have seen all kinds of covers
and you sure can not judge a book by its cover.I think thats why telling yourself the truth no matter how hard is so important to do.
And taking the steps to heal yourself it is harder than I thought but thats OK.Thats what growing and learning is all about.
Hugs
Moonlight
-
Hey Moon,
I don't think you were interrupting...the wonderful thing about the forum machine is that it lets us take turns.
And your awareness about interrupting?
ME TOO.
I'm better, but there have been so many times when my anxieties drove me to drive right over other people's attempts to talk.
I have been a "Voice hog" in the past. Much better in recent years, partly because I've channeled that urge into writing, poetry, some structured group things where time is consciously shared. I am much more at peace with myself since I've learned to listen.
Anyway, I think this is on-topic because the kind of anxiety that triggers interruptyitis is a social anxiety for some follks, I believe, and that can be about fear of failure.
Eh?
(((Moon)))
Hops
-
I am now looking bravely at N-spots .I have been told I have
a bad habit of interrupting people.I feel like how could I not have known that I do this some times? I am looking at this behavior
and I am looking at it as a bad habit I picked up and now realize I can quit doing it.I do feel bad about doing it also other n spots like trying to get approval .This stuff pretty basic huh! I am connecting the dots THANKS!
Moonlight
Hey, Moonlight! I'm an interrupter too! It is worth working on so that we can be fair to other people. I always say I want the back and forth, 50/50 relationships, so I better put my money where my mouth is. And maybe it is basic, but I skipped right over a lot of basic stuff because of being distracted by the more pressing needs, REQUIREMENTS, of living with the self-absorbed and unloving. So, better late than never. :)
PP
-
Hi All
Sorry, I haven't read everyone's replies so I apologise if I'm repeating someone.
My answer would be believe in yourself.... try and trust in the knowledge that your not always wrong, and that you made the best decision at the time, even if it turns out to be a pants decision later on.
Love H&H xx
-
Hi Kheng
I also have this ongoing struggle. It comes from infantile trauma in my case (mother being bipolar I was in an orphanage from month 3 to 6. Month 3 is the month when infants begin to smile at those close to them. (She was my nanny, a Gipsy/Roma brownskinned woman in that place where I had a constant diarhhea and medication and enemas, considered today abusive.) Month 6 is the period when the infant begins to fear strangers. The first stranger for me was my mom. (Other wise my mom was okay for 12 years after that.My dad divorced "us" at 6 but theygot alienated when I was 3 already.My dad came from a gentry family my mother was Jewish - he word means Echoer of the Be-er, be-er being the name of the Biblical "Higher Powwr" (I dont use the word "god" since it is not self-evident as the original Be-er or Creator. But it was Communism (a kind of state capitalism with a strict police force infiltrating every house) so they never mentioned my gentry and Jewish rabbi ancestors. I grew up like other atheist Catholic people. I had a string thirst for manly touch since my father (himsself an orphan) never did touch me. he did touch other boys but not me. It was paoinful. I never dared to let the other boys embrace me I shunned them, my fathers cvoldness made me believe that I am worthless. I tried to overcompensate I could draw very well, so I got the awe of my surroundings as a prodigy. And I learned well, I learned languages easily. But i always felt out of tune with others. So I emigrate dillegaally, but in the "free world" at 20 I discovered pot and gay fantasy so I ran back to the Soviet camp, risking even prison (which I escaped due to my epilepsy, which stemmed from my depression caused partly my mothers bipolarity partly my fathers abandonment. And then I thought the solutioin is to try to assume my gay identity. (Dyed hair, becoming an actor, filmmaker friends, getting famous, writing also when the Soviets stopped censorship (in 86 already, when I was 30 I published my first novel). Okay...I stop here. I am not yet healed completely. It does come back..I mean the self-depreciating void feelings...(I keep writing, I have a drawing-cartoon column I work as an expert and teach at a Rabbinical University, so outwardly everything is excellent and fine. Inwardly this aching self-doubt is recurring daily.
But since I discovered my ancestors (some were Trassylvanian Princes like Dracula, some were great Prague rabbis,like the one with the Golem) I learn history and understand that everybody is making mistakes and feeling stimes well, sometimes less well, so we are all average. I transitioned from proud gay (which I could not accomplich, being anorexic and shy and not beautiful enough to ever lure someone except for mb-ing once) i nto a married two-children father. I formed a same-fate selfhelp Association for Fathe-deficited and aAddicted Perosns (to dissseminate therapy techniqiues, in an anti-fundamentalist way, not claiming that harmony cannot happen to some other gays, maybe to most...
Since i discovered I am an exgay (and that some others in my family were able to assume leadership responsabilities) i begin to be able to give a Voice to my deep 50 years old pain.
So there is no quick band-aid. But prayers helped in a way: like when you pray you do sthing that is "expected" and thus you practice self-discipline (even while a voice - a fatherly criticizing voice - says that prayer is silly ) and self-discipline breeds self-respect.
(Of course I tried many religions, but the Echoer copncept of the Existentiator /the Jewish originakól discovery of the Incvisible Being whop saves - in Hebrew: Yeshuah, the original for "jesus") from constraints (Egypt), well this really makes pprayer less silly. Why not "let" the Eternal (the non-Ego power) be a "person" (since we also consist of milliards of atoms and still feel" like a "person". Why deny it could be possible for the rest of the world?
So prayer and slef-discipline (or mediation and regular exercises and responsibility assuming and dfaily postponing of self-doubt self-pity bouts like in a 12step group) helped me and maybe it is worth trying for you too (even if you are not so exceptionally frtunate as me with my lately discovered famous ancestors...but you know, 400 years ago the people who lived then are the ancestors of all the present ones.
So maybe we are brothers.
Bye
try to accept suffering thats the other part of the answer. "God" (Tao) creates good and bad. Both.And maturity does not come without losses and grieving...one can pound illows crying maybe in a time-share co-counsleing setting and one gets relieved. Try it. Even the best most intelligent people feels stimes dumb. Its okay to feel that and not say a word.
-
'dissociate' is a sad place- no connections, a hiding place, exchanging short-term safety for longer-term growth....
Hope now you've discussed it some you're not feeling dissociated at all!
-
dissociate' is a sad place- no connections, a hiding place, exchanging short-term safety for longer-term growth....
Hope now you've discussed it some you're not feeling dissociated at all!
Yeah, disassociation is a very sad place to be at. It feels like a slow painful death of the spirit and vitality. I, actually, don't feel better since I've written a little about myself. Everyone who've posted on this thread with their thoughts and suggestions have been so gracious. Behind the printed words I appreciate the thoughtfulness. But, for me personally, I've come to a point where I don't want to hear people suggesting for me to do this or that....granted, those things have worked for them. I even to start feeling uncomfortable with suggestions and advice. Sometimes, I catch myself doing the very thing I don't want others to do for me...talking to instead of talking with the person, instead of hearing them out with no suggestions even if they are requested...giving people space to expand upon their thoughts. I find that is a very difficult thing for me to do for others. I think I tend to ask others for suggestions about certain things, and when I get what I had asked for, I pull away from them. I guess when I ask for suggestions I'm actually saying I don't believe in myself.
I just want to feel that whatever I'm feeling is quite okay. For me to think I need to change is for me to say that I'm not okay. That there is something broken within me that needs fixing. That is saying to myself that I am not whole. If there is one word that best reflects how I feel about myself, it is shame. I even feel ashame of feeling ashame of myself. I think the worst thing any adult can say to a child, verbally or nonverbally, is "you should be ashamed of yourself!" Or, "I'm ashame of you!" Those words create a wound that may never heal.
-
Hi Kheng:
I am very sorry that any suggestions I made might have seemed like me not listening to you. I do want to listen.
Whatever you are feeling is quite ok. Feelings are ok. Actions may not be.
If I feel angry that's ok. If I tell you I want to hurt someone else because I feel angry, that's ok too but if I go ahead and hurt someone because I feel angry........that's not ok (in most cases eh?).
So if you are in a sad place, that's ok. You said you 'don't feel better since (you've) written a little about (yourself) and that's ok. You did ask what has helped others to deal with feeling like a failure and if you've changed your mind and you don't want to hear any more, that's ok too. Quite ok. :D
I guess when I ask for suggestions I'm actually saying I don't believe in myself.
I do want to listen so I'm going to ask some questions and you can decide to answer or not.
Why don't you believe in yourself?
What does believe in yourself mean to you?
Does it mean to have faith in, trust, rely on? (that's my def without looking it up)
If so, what have you done that has destroyed your faith in yourself or stopped you from trusting and relying on yourself?
Do you want to believe in yourself?
If not, what do you want?
For me to think I need to change is for me to say that I'm not okay.
Is everyone always ok?
Would it be a terrible thing if you thought you weren't ok?
Are you trying to say that you just want to be ok with feeling like a failure?
Is it ok to feel like a failure?
What does feeling like a failure really mean? (What types of thoughts lead you to feel like a failure and why?)
If there is one word that best reflects how I feel about myself, it is shame. I even feel ashame of feeling ashame of myself.
What have you done that is sooooooooo terrible?
What are you ashamed of?
Do you think bad things about yourself and then feel ashamed?
Has anyone else said stuff to you and then you felt ashamed?
Did your parent(s) say "You should be ashamed of yourself" or "I am ashamed of you"?
I'm glad you think those are some of the worst things adults can say to a child. I would be really worried if you thought those were quite ok. If they said those things to you, they were being mean and nasty and cruel.
when I get what I had asked for, I pull away from them.
What do you feel at that moment, when you get what you ask for? What do you think makes you pull away?
(((((((((((((((((((((Kheng)))))))))))))))))))))
I hear your pain. I hear you saying you understand and feel the caring of all who have posted to you and that you appreciate it. You don't sound like such a terrible person to me, nor do I feel ashamed of you. I think you are admirable for being so honest and so open and for having the courage to expose your deepest stuff.
Talk away, if you feel like it. I'm trying to listen and if I missed stuff or got it wrong, it's because sometimes I fail and that's ok too, right?
Isn't it ok to fail?
Is it possible to never fail?
Sela
-
I'm afraid my perception of myself in a state of failure are too deeply rooted and entangled during my teenage years and later years that just telling myself certain things is not strong enough to dissuage or disentangle me from my perception of myself as a failure. I wish it could!
Fear is such a strong force. How did we end up developing all sorts of fears in our lives? Why do some ppl fear this and not that? Sure, past unpleasant impressionable experiences can bring about fear. But why are some people able to move beyond that and not others? I think the biggest fear I have is fear of failure. Maybe if I don't fear failure than it will not have such a relentless hold on me. The very way thing I try to run away from is the very thing that constantly taunts and chases after me like a monster in a dark alley.
BTW, I used to come on this board awhile back. I went by the name Butterfly.
Kheng
Hi Kheng,
A phobia is literally what brought into long-term therapy and my healing journey began. I was afraid of water and getting on a boat. The fear came out of nowhere - seemingly - but in reality its birth began in the early years of my childhood.
If you lived with a N as a child fear of failure would be ingrained in you since N's are into perfection. Everything has to be perfect for N's. If you are the chosen child they will project all their failures onto you.
I can now clearly remember one incident which my mother twisted and made me look like the failure. Of course for years I remembered it as my mother had described it - I was the failure. I failed to keep an orderly desk at school in kindergarten! Gee-sh! My goodness! Her need for orderliness and perfection and neatness and rules and regulations permeated every day of my life. My mother is both NPD and OCPD which means she knows she is perfect and she strives to be more perfect. What a combination! :shock: Anyway the story she tells about my desk at school was all I could ever remember until one day in therapy when as I was telling it I visually was transported back in time to that very day. And it didn't happen the way my mother had told me. Gee, do tell. My mother has lied about a lot. She said the teacher told her my organization skills were sadly lacking and that my desk was a mess. In reality there was a parent-student-teacher night at school and my mother saw my desk and came unglued. No child of mine is going to have a desk that looks like this. Those were her exact words. Instead she turned the incident around and said the teacher told her to get me a desk and have me organize my stuff in the desk. Everyday she would check my desk at home to make sure it was neat, orderly, clean, etc. ad nauseum.
Here is but one incident about how my mother's N behavior permeated my life and made me feel like a failure. In essence she projected her fear of failure (OCPD) and perfectionism (NPD) onto me. I have learned that I am not the neat and orderly type. I am creative and imaginative. I am not obsessed with perfectionism I like details and can see the whole picture as well.
-
I just want to feel that whatever I'm feeling is quite okay. For me to think I need to change is for me to say that I'm not okay.
Hi Kheng,
Your whole post is interesting to me but I highlighted these phrases because they touch on something I'm struggling with. All my life I have changed myself and/or my actions to accomodate others, get along, try to please people. But I'm sick of it actually. I look all around me and see people behaving in terrible or ridiculous ways and I notice they don't seem to think they need to change or accomodate others. And it seems that somehow they got the idea, in childhood I suppose, that they are okay, they are fiine the way they are. And that bothers me for many reasons. It makes me feel like I have wasted a lot of effort and I have hurt myself too by allowing my very spirit to be "up for grabs". And they seem to have a richer life in some ways than I do. Nobody is ostracized, for example, just because they have what I might perceive or judge to be "flaws". I basically picked up the wrong idea. Perfectionism is simply the wrong way to approach life and relationships. Trying to please others is no good if that is all I'm trying to do. It is manipulative if you think about it. And not the real me. And other people don't appreciate it as much as I assumed all these years. It is hard to live in a way that is the opposite of that. But I think I really have to stop with all the changing and accomodating and trying to please others at the expense of who I really am.
The way you have explained what you want to do gives me a new way to think about something that I also want to do. I'm not saying I want to become terrible or ridiculous! Just that I want to just be okay with who I really am instead of being so willing to throw away aspects of myself based on what I perceive other people wanting from me. It's that value thing again. If I have value, I shouldn't have to keep adjusting and refining who I am. Even my flaws may have some value. Hopefully. 'Cause like I said, I'm sick of changing all the time!
Pennyplant
-
Pennyplant:
I look all around me and see people behaving in terrible or ridiculous ways and I notice they don't seem to think they need to change or accomodate others.
Oh, you got my blood pressure up reading this. This is exactly where I have been for several months. I do not know if it is an age thing or I am just simply sick and tired of excusing the inexcusable. But, I have had a belly full of bad behavior and am on sort of a mission these days to address it.
I have had this conversation about "trying so hard" with several friends and it seems that this is becoming a very common thread for all of us. Again, it could be an age issue. Still, I subscribe to the notion that ignored behavior is taught behavior.
Oprah Winfrey often says that we teach people how to treat us. Many of us are dropping old curriculums and adopting new ones. Yowsa! Hope the class had their oatmeal today!!!
ANewSheriff
-
Sela, thank you for wanting to hear me out and for wanting to understand where I am coming from. I believe you are as wonderful a person in real life as you are in cyber life. I can hear your sincerity behind your words. And I just want you to know that I take it to heart. If I'm not answering your questions, i'm not trying to evade them or don't care to address them. I'm just very limited in free time for a little while. Please don't apologize for the suggestions you've made for me. I see that as a very caring act that you did for me. You showed you cared in your way with your unique style and approach to my post. Thanks. There was no way for you to know how I want to be heard iif I didn't let you know, right? I did sound inconsistent with my posts, didn't I? One minute I'm asking for suggestions or the likes and the next minute I'm saying back off with your suggestions. That does sound very inconsistent of me, confusing, and maybe unfair to people who gave what I had asked for. It can even turn people off. Thank you for hanging it there with me, Sela. I am paradoxical in nature. I think we are all paradoxical in one way or the other.
Pennyplant, I hear what you are saying. And I'm really glad that in some little way my posts kinda help you on your own journey. It's encouraging for me to know that as I am benefitting from posting, it is concurrently benefitting others as well. Since I've posted on this particular thread, I've wondered if it was even worth exposing myself, and how others have taken it. Or if there are people who can somehow level with me or just wanting to explore this topic as much as I do. Essentially, I just want to explore this realm of this powerful force in my life and hopefully discover things along the way with the inputs of others. I guess you can say that I want to feel things and think things through on my terms and in my own space. I always welcome inputs from people as long as they level with me and not tell me how to think or to feel on their terms. I'm not sure if I'm getting my point across without sounding fickle or even crass. Your post was reassuring to me, validating to me that it was a positive thing for me to post afterall. Thanks. I needed to hear what you had to say on your last post.