Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board

Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Sela on April 19, 2006, 12:26:43 AM

Title: I lost my singing voice when I saw my friends were N's....
Post by: Sela on April 19, 2006, 12:26:43 AM: Sounds like a country and western song but it's the story of my life.

Or the recent story ........anyhow. :roll:

I never noticed it before. Now........I do. I was just MSN'ing with a "friend".
I read and I read and I replied and I cheered and ooo'd and awww'd and read and read and tried to put bits in......about me......my thoughts......my feelings.......my experience.......which were all ignored while my "friend" went on and on and on and I read and replied and acknowledged and ........

jeepers. I almost wish I didn't know what I know...or think I know... so I could go happily about thinking I still have the odd friend in this world who is somewhat "normal" .......

truth is........there are a lot more Nish than I ever noticed or knew to notice or what it feels like now......can't help but notice. :roll: Too many of the Nish.

:( :( :(

I don't even want to talk about myself. I just want to be acknowledged when I do finally say something.....find the words to share something. How do I attract these people? How can a person talk like that about themselves, for over an hour and never ask: "So how are you?" or "What's new with you?" or at least say something to show they read what you wrote about how you are or what's new with you?

I guess that's a pretty stupid question eh? Nevermind.

It's like I wasn't even there.......on the other end of that conversation. Like I don't even exist. I feel like such an object. And at the end......my "friend" wrote:

"It's been nice chatting with you" and I'm thinking......."chatting with me? is that what that was? it felt more like reading a novel ........an e-novel.......in real time.......'as it is written'.......or something...poor quality too."

But do I ever say anything? Nope. Do I ever stand up for myself and just be honest. Not in those circumstances. It feels like a waste of time.

Oh well. Just feeling a bit sorry for myself, I guess.

I don't want to turn into a hermit but I'm halfway there.....some days. I just have to do a little weeding out.
Ignor that flashing MSN thingy sometimes. Be picky--er.

Sing a different song or somethng. :arrow:

Sela
Title: Re: I lost my singing voice when I saw my friends were N's....
Post by: Brigid on April 19, 2006, 09:26:13 AM: Sela,
I, too, had a good friend--she was actually my very best friend for over 8 years and we used to do things as couples all the time--who would call me at least once every day to tell me what was going on in her life. Three days a week, we used to walk our dogs together for over an hour and she would talk the entire time about the problems she was having with her children, husband, brother, whatever, without ever asking how my life was. When it started to become so clear to me how N she was, was when we were building our house, which was a very exciting but stressful time for me, and during that entire 9 month process she never once asked how it was going, if I liked how it looked, if she could go look at it--NOTHING. I would try to bring it up and she would change the subject. And her husband had designed the house and we loved what he had done. It just became more and more uncomfortable and weird. I did confront her about it at one time, but it made no difference.

She did the same thing with everyone around her and we all got very tired of it and eventually pulled away from her. She finally left her husband because he wouldn't listen to her constant woes and be sympathetic. Interestingly, she had a father who loved her to death and thought everything she did was golden. When he died, she got much worse since no one else would endlessly put up with her contant self-pity. She was not happy unless she had something to complain about and have people feel sorry for her. I have watched her make new friends, burn them out and move on to someone new for years since. I can't believe how long I put up with it, but of course, I had lived with a man for 20 years who was the same way, so I guess I was a sucker for that behavior. Thankfully, no more.

Brigid
Title: Re: I lost my singing voice when I saw my friends were N's....
Post by: Sela on April 19, 2006, 09:36:42 AM: Thankyou Sugarre. That response was right on what I was feeling and actually......what I needed to hear. And you were able to sort through the confusion and give me back a little hope. Thankyou so much Sugarre.

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It's sad for me to have to weed through old friends and see that they are no longer appropriate for me. I used to think a had a large pool of support but as I learn more about me and narcissistic prone people, the pool just has to decrease. It leaves me feeling, at times, alone and regretful....

Yep. That's how I was feeling.......sad.......alone.......regretful and I agree the "pool" of Nish has to decrease.....there are people I thought of as supportive who are not appropriate for me now because actually......they aren't supportive at all.....they're using me for support/validation/whatever and it's not reciprocal.

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I just created polite distance.

That's probably all I have to do. There doesn't have to be a big...........separation thingy.

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.....but I sure feel better about making authentic new friends.

Yes!! So true!! I must be careful to remember to celebrate this because I do feel better about that.....I have made some new authentic friends and it is not only worth remembering.........it's worth rejoicing about (at least in my own head)!!!

I go complaining about the loss of those who really, I cannot trust or rely on and I forget to be glad about being so lucky to find those I can trust and rely on. Sometimes, I just don't know where my brain goes. :? :?

Thanks for you post Sugarre. It means so much to me. You heard me and validated my feelings and gave me an important reminder. I really appreciate you bothering.

Hey Brigid:

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.....so I guess I was a sucker for that behavior.

Were you? Was I? Or were we just uneducated/misinformed about how to share and what friendship really is? I was feeling like there must be something wrong with me when I posted last night. Like I'm not a good judge of people and it must be myyyyyyyy fault.....after all.....IIIIIIIIIIII chose the friend/s.

But now I'm starting to see it differently (different day.......different mood......different thoughts/feelings). Today.....I'm thinking.....maybe I shouldn't kick myself for not knowing stuff and just be glad I finally learned it (and hope I don't forget it! :shock:)? Maybe it's not all meeeeee and myyyy choooosing but luck has something to do with it and the other person does some choosing too?? And hopefully I will get better as judging people as I go along and maybe I just had to learn a few lessons along the way? I don't know.

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Thankfully, no more.

That gives me hope too Brigid. Thankyou. Maybe from now on.......I'll choose better and not be so easily chosen??

Sela
Title: Re: I lost my singing voice when I saw my friends were N's....
Post by: portia guest on April 19, 2006, 10:08:26 AM: (((((((((Sela)))))))))

You are very much here, and you very much exist and I for one say

Thank goodness!!!!!! :D :D :D

We need more Selas please, more people who can Think and Feel and Listen and Speak and Not Be Objects.

For those who talk and talk are rather behaving like objects themselves…not requiring any real connections, not relying on responses to get them yakking, no. They only need an audience, someone to yak to. Sad of course.

Are they all Ns? I don’t know. Sure seems like there’s a lot of selfish, self-obsessed behaviour these days. Some of it seems pure madness to me.

Ahhh *sigh*….so you feel bad…..invalidated, so to speak. I think I understand. They do my head in. They call and yak for 2 hours and if they do say ‘how are you’ it ain’t an in-depth question. Say anything remotely ‘real’ and it gives them an opportunity to criticise you :(, or, tell a story about how they did something similar and they did ‘better’ than you :x. Or be horrified at your truth and react as though you have hurt them by telling them!! :o Oh yeah.

But do I ever say anything? Nope. Do I ever stand up for myself and just be honest. Not in those circumstances. It feels like a waste of time.

I don’t know, I’ve not tried it….or have I? Only with parents and it doesn’t work: I get upset, they don’t, I feel like I’m bonkers and they react like I’m bonkers.

What would you say? “I haven’t enjoyed this conversation because…..”? Like you say, what’s the point? Even if they listen, and say they’ll listen to you, you know that they’ll be doing it like a robot, because it’s required of them so that they get ‘their turn’. It’s no fun when you know someone is only half-listening.

I am a hermit and the phone line is heavily guarded with several levels of protection! 8)

Personally I’ve had enough. When I’ve told the most emotionally-wrenching things to people and they just say “oh yeah, something similar happened to me…..” well, what’s the point. I’m talking mother, father here, not an acquaintance. But ‘friends’ have done it too. So I don’t have friends in 3D life. I’m sick of being labelled and having all my reactions put into other peoples’ boxes of me. Their limited, focussed, constrained ideas of who I am.

How do you attract these people? I guess you listen? And show empathy? And for many, many people a show of empathy is a sign of ‘friendship’ to them. And if they decide that you are their friend, that’s all it takes for them. It doesn’t need any damn reciprocity!

It isn’t just Ns. It’s anyone locked inside their own head. Depression can do it, various things can do it I think.

And there aren’t that many folks it seems who want real solutions and answers. Some appear happiest when they’re moaning and being a victim and if you suggest a way through – whoah! No thanks!

I look at people on the street, on the train etc and watch for their eyes. So few people have alive eyes! Even young children have had their eyes dimmed, you can see it so easily. But those who haven’t…..those are the ones I want to take to the park and feed the birds and play with the leaves and grass and watch the clouds.

I’m sure you have alive eyes Sela. I’m almost 100% positive you do! :D (and that’s a bit absolute for me).

You have exceptional gifts but some people won’t/can’t see them.

Myth or truth, not sure which: Maurice Saatchi was walking through New York and spotted a blind man sitting on the street, holding a sign which read
“Blind, please help”. Maurice took out a pen and amended the sign to read:
“Blind, and it’s Spring, please help.”

Not sure of the point of that story but I like it. :D

More another day. (((((((((Sela)))))))))

PS Background music for singing to: http://www.gasgroup.com/dowop/ (I like the middle two on…)
Title: Re: I lost my singing voice when I saw my friends were N's....
Post by: Sela on April 19, 2006, 12:02:13 PM: :cry: :| :) :cry: :| :) :D :D

You always make me smile through my tears ((((((((((P))))))))))).

Thankyou for those singing horsies. And for your clear insights and words and your giant empathy.

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You have exceptional gifts but some people won’t/can’t see them.

So do you Portia. Thankyou for being my non-selfish, non-self obsessed thinking feeling listening speaking connecting friend. You give me great hope.

And you're right too.....it's not just N's. They can't all be N's or most likely aren't.

Maybe the point of the blind man story is.......he's blind, he needs help......that isn't going to change....but it's spring........a time when stuff grows.......new beginnings......fresh......a good time to change from being a non-giver to .......a giver.....maybe? Or to grow or renew our ability to lend a paw......once in awhile? I don't know either but I like it too.

Thanks for the big hug. I needed it and felt it too.

And I'm going to pay more attention to people's eyes. Mine are a bit watery right now but they'll liven up once they dry out a little.

Hung the laundry outside a few minutes ago and I love the way it waves in the breeze......it's like watching a graceful ballet....

.......which helps me feel whimsical and carefree

like your horsies did (and I laughed out loud!!).

((((((((((((thankyou P))))))))))))

:D Sela
Title: Re: I lost my singing voice when I saw my friends were N's....
Post by: moonlight52 on April 19, 2006, 04:10:34 PM: Sela and Portia Brigid and Sugarre , So Lovely So beautiful are your words How dear your spirits !
Quote Portia "I look at people on the street ,on the train etc.and watch for their eyes.So few people have alive eyes !Even young children have had their eyes dimmed ,you can see it so easily.But those who haven't...those are the ones I want to take to the park and feed the birds and play with the leaves and grass and watch the clouds"
WOW This thread means so much .Thank you Who needs coffee to wake up with words of beauty like this
Really Cool
Moon
Title: Re: I lost my singing voice when I saw my friends were N's....
Post by: ANewSheriff on April 19, 2006, 04:37:35 PM: Sela:
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"It's been nice chatting with you" and I'm thinking......."chatting with me? is that what that was? it felt more like reading a novel ........an e-novel.......in real time.......'as it is written'.......or something...poor quality too."

Well, it is nice to see you have not lost your sense of humor. I am sorry that you had that experience. I have been there, believe me. You asked a little while later how this scenario seems to repeat itself so often in your life. I do not know your story, but wonder if you may have had this experience with someone of significance in your younger years.

The real question, though, is how to break this cycle. Do you think you might try stating something like, "I have been thinking about something significant and I was wondering... Do you have time to listen and tell me what your take on this might be?"

I think that it is just human nature that we are all a bit self-centered. I wonder if a person would be a better listener if he or she was told in advance that you were anxiously awaiting a response. Just thinking out loud.

Sugarre:
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It leaves me feeling, at times, alone and regretful but I sure feel better about making authentic new friends.

As I get older, I notice this personally and hear it from my friends, too. I wonder if this is an age thing. I am much more cautious than I used to be. Also, I used to say "I don't care what people think" a lot, but I really did care. Today, I say those words and I really do mean them. (Giggle). Perhaps, I am just getting old and tired of the games.

Brigid:
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I would try to bring it up and she would change the subject.

I have had people do this to me and (I confess) I have done this to people. Several years ago I realized how often I was cutting people off in conversations. I was mortified at how often I did this once I became aware of it. It took some time to get over doing it because it was such a bad habit. Maybe your friend was just selfish. But, I did this to people I really cared about. I wanted to tell you that sometimes this is just a bad habit, poor social skills... I do not do this so much anymore. Yippee for all my "silenced" friends!

Sela:
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Maybe from now on.......I'll choose better and not be so easily chosen??

Wow!!! Very profound, Sela. Thank you...

Portia:
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And there aren’t that many folks it seems who want real solutions and answers. Some appear happiest when they’re moaning and being a victim and if you suggest a way through – whoah! No thanks!

This has really bothered me for some time. People seem to have such lethargic, medicated responses to life and its situations. Why is this? Some of these things really matter! Yet, people seem to lack any kind of appropriate response. Broken spirits? Are we just so beat up that we fail to have access to appropriate responses to our own lives?

As you say, more people than not seem preferable to a life filled with complaining rather than finding and initiating solutions. I call these people the "Yeah, but'ers". No matter how you cheer them on, no matter how many alternative solutions you provide, you will get the response, "Yeah, but..." They have a stockpile of negative responses for a myriad of positive solutions.

ANewSheriff
Title: Re: I lost my singing voice when I saw my friends were N's....
Post by: portia guest on April 19, 2006, 05:04:50 PM: Sela, (((((((((Sela))))))))) just popping in to say ooooo-eeeee-oooo cha-choo-cha-choo shammashammmashamma :D :D :D they are cute aren't they? I can see your washing now (swish swish). Good therapy. I have had deeper friendships here....more meaningful ones...than ever in 3D (thanks October for 3D) life. Learned so much :oops: mainly through all my mistakes :D. Yeah. Hope you have sweet dreams tonight.

(((Moonlight))) will you come too please, to the park? We can take paints and paper and we and the kids can just let it rip :D excellent.

ANewSheriff, I've been listening quietly to you and I like your voice. The yeah but'ers. Mmm done a bit of that myself I'm sure. Being an angry victim (in my case) is quite comfortable and quite attractive, all that .... hashing the bad stuff and thinking 'it isn't fair'! 'Someone should save me!' Accepting that life isn't fair is very tough I think. I'm still struggling with it but each time I struggle, it feels like the fog of victim-ness rises faster. Make sense? But I know what you mean! Some it seems are obsessed with the darkness and don't want to see any light.

Night all, have a pleasant evening.
Title: Re: I lost my singing voice when I saw my friends were N's....
Post by: moonlight52 on April 20, 2006, 12:13:27 AM: Hey Portia

Everyone loves a garden ,maybe the kids will be watching the clouds and then checking out the rose brushes and

honeysuckle bushes.Those kids and their wild imagination what do they see in the clouds,roses ,honeysuckle ?

There are more and more people spiritually awakening, I have a lot of hope for the world.

I think the park a lovely spot to put up my canvas I would love to let the kids paint !
Moonlight
Title: Re: I lost my singing voice when I saw my friends were N's....
Post by: Portia on April 20, 2006, 06:28:19 AM: Wow, two stunning sets of words…

teartracks
Is it possible that a nation can be narcissistic?

Moonlight
There are more and more people spiritually awakening, I have a lot of hope for the world.

I’m grappling with these thoughts.

What is the main objective of the people who govern us? Big question and I think there’s a difference between what a good government does and what the ideals are.

Constant increases in GDP seems to be the main objective in the US and UK. And in many other wealthier countries. We’re rich and we want to get richer right? I don’t agree. I don’t want to get richer at the expense of other people, other countries and at the expense of our natural, finite resources. Where does Maslow’s hierarchy of needs fit in the way we run our countries?

If we have national consciences, how can we continue making weapons and selling them to countries who want to fight each other, or oppress their own citizens? The arms industry is the largest ‘business’ in the world.

If we have consciences, how can we deny a possible link between the arms industry’s effects on other people, and the massive profits from pharmaceuticals sold to people who are recovering from the effects of war in those countries? The pharma business is the second largest in the world.

Maybe we could feed everyone first and then work out a sustainable world population. Move people from areas where the land and weather can’t sustain human life. Control reproduction and pollution (the first sorts out the second to an extent).

Maybe we’ll do it. Maybe someone is working on it right now. I don't know. Where can I find out? What publication do I need to get to find out?....

I have hope for the human race too. But on the other hand, it doesn’t matter (to the universe, the universe is neutral).

But I think we do need to stop being so greedy and wanting more for the sake of it. More stuff! Fridge magnets, strawberries at Christmas, bigger better bodies and longer lives…yeah, it’s narcissistic. We behave like children.

I have the feeling, based on my limited experiences and my place in time and space, that we’re reaching a crunch time, a time of change, but that’s probably just my own hopefulness (or childlike egocentricity in thinking that *now* is in any way important). I think we could go towards the kind of dystopia in Margaret Atwood’s ‘Oryx and Crake’ novel; or maybe we will get a lot meaner before we get kinder (growing humans for spare parts for the minority very rich, extending the lives of a few).

The idea of extending life is interesting and I don’t understand anyone’s wish to live longer than their contemporaries….(who do we have shared memories with? Who can we really talk to?)…but we’re seriously working towards it. I guess it’s because we can, but is it also some deep-rooted collective fear of death? Fear of death itself is … a lack of knowledge and understanding and an unwillingness to want to think about it….I guess. :?

Anyway, I think it would be a good idea if we could agree, across the world, to redefine what we mean by ‘progress’ and ‘success’. And it would be fantastic if everyone who can vote does so and does so intelligently. Yeah I’m an optimist! :D

Thanks for those words…gave me a chance to work on some thoughts that are bubbling away these days……and what do you think?
Title: Re: I lost my singing voice when I saw my friends were N's....
Post by: Sela on April 20, 2006, 10:30:50 AM: Hi all:

Hiya Anewsherrif: Thankyou for your kind words. I don't know if I can answer your question about having a similar experience with someone significant in my younger years or not. I'll have to think about that. My bet is, I probably did but to be honest.......I would have to sift through stuff in my head and pay attention using the info I now have and apply it....compare.....take note of the past....from a new angle. Not today. Maybe another day. :D

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I think that it is just human nature that we are all a bit self-centered. I wonder if a person would be a better listener if he or she was told in advance that you were anxiously awaiting a response. Just thinking out loud.

I fail to see how asking someone who isn't listening to me to begin with for anything will amount to any change. Actually, I have done that before (with other people) and found that not only do I not get what I want but by asking.....I have then given that person a new edge.....to use against me. This may not happen with a "friend" but I guess I just don't feel like having those kinds of friendships anymore.......where I have to jump up and down just to be noticed......like a circus clown. I think my definition of frendship is changing and it's not that I don't want to give or sacrifice or even just be a sounding board sometimes for my friend. It's that I don't want to do it......allllllllllllllllllllllllllll.........of the time. That's just not friendship. That's me letting myself be used and I don't like the way I've allowed that to happen. So I guess......I'm trying to first....deal with the realization and the pain of that realization......and next.......I bet I will be drifting away from such "friendships".

It's not a bad thing I think.

Ya Bean: It does hurt and it does suck and thanks for validating those feelings.

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Their are kind people everywhere. Now you'll have more time to notice them.

I'm with you. I don't want to lose my faith in people. I do believe there are plenty of kind people..........capable of real friendship.....in the world. I will have to make more of an effort to notice them.

Hey Teartracks:
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Is it possible that a nation can be narcissistic?

I'm thinking this is really nothing new. It's not like the world is getting any less N than it has ever been eh? I mean, in the past....societies were pretty archaic. I'm not sure that whatever feeds our Nism, as a society, is all that much different from whatever fed that Nism, in the past......our vanity, our desire for "wealth" (whatever that is/was...for the time period)......our focus on ourselves......first.....the poor, the weak, the decrepit......last, our longing for success/power etc. I think it's quite possible that not only our nation but many nations of the world have been saturated with Nism and will continue to be so throughout time, unless something comes along that works better and dries all the Nishness up. Could that happen? Maybe? I doubt it.

Hiya P:
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Maybe we could feed everyone first and then work out a sustainable world population. Move people from areas where the land and weather can’t sustain human life. Control reproduction and pollution (the first sorts out the second to an extent).

Maybe we’ll do it. Maybe someone is working on it right now. I don't know. Where can I find out? What publication do I need to get to find out?....

I'm tempted to say: "The bible" (not being rude......just that maybe if everyone read it.....paid attention to the lessons there......tried to live something close to what it seems to be basically trying to communicate ......maybe if everyone got "the main message".....well.......who knows eh? Ofcourse.......it would take more than reading......there would actually need to be action taken.....after reading......that would make the difference, I think).

What you're describing and hoping for seems like something akin to this world becoming something like heaven.......where everyone is cared for and equal and loved and respected......including small creatures and all things natural. Who's to say it could never happen here? Not me.

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...but is it also some deep-rooted collective fear of death? Fear of death itself is … a lack of knowledge and understanding and an unwillingness to want to think about it….I guess.

I bet you're right. I bet this is especially right for some who believe this is it......there is no life after this. It only makes sense that they should want to make it last as long as possible......if things are going fairly well for them eh? And the thing about death is that it is very painful for some people. Who looks forward to a long, slow, agonizing death? Not what anyone wants (unless they're all s&m'y and I'm not going there). So ya....extend life.....make it last........hold onto youth........fear death....all go hand in hand with.......this is it, I think, a lot of the time.

To be honest....I think the animal in us......prevents us from losing our Nism. Maybe it's a necessary element of survival in this world? Or at least......maybe our brains have come to depend on it, genetically speaking sort of......that Nism? In other words......without any type of Nism......think of how gentle, serene, sweet, loving, kind, generous, selfless, angelic....etc people would be? A bit like heaven eh? (Or my heavenly picture anyway).

I agree....it would be nice. Even ridding some of it.....decreasing it.......would make this a nicer place to live. I like your hope and your optimism! You hang onto those!! It's what helps to bring about change, I think.

And it can be contagious too.

:D Sela
Title: Re: I lost my singing voice when I saw my friends were N's....
Post by: moonlight52 on April 20, 2006, 01:10:28 PM: Portia Yes sir sure looks like everything stinks that is true.So why are we all here at this time on planet Earth? We all ready figured out freewill, so it us. We are here to do "something".Then what is it.From what I see it is a growth process almost like giving birth.Bringing a new humanity to Earth to work together,
no one said it would be easy nothing worthwhile is easy.I think we have passed crunch time but no one noticed .Maybe we are are on a healthy path even tho it may not seem that way. But we will figure it all out.Yes there are too many dumb fridge magnets and for what? I do not live in Lalaland I see the problems of the world.I just am not a DOOM and
GLOOM person thats all.I believe mankind will find the solutions to each problem we need to address.I do not want to feed into the global fear .My husband and I have a co. our company is doing environmental research .We are hooked up with other companies ,(some of them international All these small companies together can make for positive change)
of like minds there is a lot of very hopeful new research going on to solve ENVIRONMENTAL PROBLEMS of all kinds ,OIL PROBLEMS(fuel cells,solar)etc. that are coming soon which will lessen political problems .So I do feel planet Earth will get Thur this "birthing " stage and we we solve our own problems.When mankind finds his own divine soverity then mankind will not need government....................I am not anti war I am pro peace
The fear of death thing I do not have it And there is only 1 person that still scares me as ...............silly as that is ............n-dad
Moon
Title: Re: I lost my singing voice when I saw my friends were N's....
Post by: Hopalong on April 20, 2006, 04:26:14 PM: Quote
I do not want to feed into the global fear .My husband and I have a co. our company is doing environmental research .

THANK YOU, Moon.

Hops
Title: Re: I lost my singing voice when I saw my friends were N's....
Post by: Portia on April 21, 2006, 07:19:30 AM: Hops, seconded. Thank you Moon and Hubby.

Sela, hiya

our focus on ourselves......first.....the poor, the weak, the decrepit......last,

yah! It’s how we’re built, I’m convinced of it! BUT, as we get richer and we have time to think as opposed to merely survive, that’s when we can start to look around and care for the wider world. It starts with our immediate neighbourhood, our bigger ‘tribe’, our state, our country and on to encompass all people…and animals and eventually, the planet. If we spend time thinking and educating our children to think, then yes, there is lots of hope. Moon has given me more hope with her words!

I honestly think we can evolve out of narcissism. It’s all about taking the power away from the power-hungry and using the collective voice to instigate changes, maybe. The internet is wonderful for breaking down the barriers between countries and peoples. Hello China! Etc.

What you're describing and hoping for seems like something akin to this world becoming something like heaven.......where everyone is cared for and equal and loved and respected......including small creatures and all things natural.

Utopia? I’ll be joining the JWs next! JOKE. No, to get to some sustainable life, there would have to be very difficult conversations between countries and very difficult decisions made. People will suffer. And I don’t want utopia either, that would be boring. We need something to strive for, I just think maybe, just maybe, we can have a collective striving. I’ve always said pure socialism would never work because we are inherently selfish….but …….that’s one heck of a challenge eh? And we humans love a challenge! :D

The language we use shapes our thinking -

Who looks forward to a long, slow, agonizing death?

To me death is the tiny moment when we step from ‘alive’ to ‘not alive’. Death isn’t a process: it’s simply breathing – not breathing. Pain on the other hand is what I fear most. Not existing doesn’t bother me. Pain bothers me a lot. So we need to give everyone pain relief. We can do that. We need to be a little less in love with staying alive and a little more accepting that one day we won’t exist. I think. Getting rid of the fear of death (and of pain if we can) frees us to live! To enjoy the day.

I do read bits of scripture sometimes. I like a lot of what Jesus said. I don’t like a lot in the Bible, especially the anti-women and anti-children stuff. It’s too ancient for me, generally. I like facts, science, new stuff. I like what I know of the man (and I don't know much) who wrote this http://www.simonyi.ox.ac.uk/dawkins/WorldOfDawkins-archive/Dawkins/Work/Articles/2001-05-14lament_douglas.shtml and I wonder if that link will fit on the page? I know all facts are subject to change, but heck, we work with what we’ve got right now. There’s theoretical and there’s practical!

Moon,

I’m not all doom and gloom either, I’m a bit too rational most days for my own liking. But I loved your post. I read it last night and went to bed thinking wow. Just ‘wow!’. People like you restore any faith I might have temporarily lost in the human species. :D Thank you.
Title: Re: I lost my singing voice when I saw my friends were N's....
Post by: moonlight52 on April 21, 2006, 10:48:10 AM: Portia ,My hubby is a scientist along with a great gang down at the "plant",really my hubby's an inventor.He quit a job working for big cooperation making Night vision goggles, see in the dark goggles. He was an optics engineer but the thing was there are 2 uses for the goggles and one happens to be military,so he wanted out.we started our own co.he designs water purification systems ULTRA PURE systems used for many things that are good for planet earth used for labs , university's, hospitals ,medical purposes. Also he works on the environmental research
My job at the co. is quite lofty indeed I have done art work for ads,swept up the floors ,shipping, answered phones ,paperwork and as the day goes on I like to keep things lite hearted I am the comic relief sort of.
The Earth is so very important ,all of us everyone of are so important some have taken a rocky road
I believe mankind has a wonderful future ahead.Yes we have a lot of problems but we are not going to blow ourselves up or any thing.
Death I am not afraid of it there are too many I love dearly on the other side" waitin up yonder
Picasso that man was soooooooooooo afraid of death and he was such a nnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn and he was so mean to women and to his children! Then look at the life of Matisse so sweet and dear the 2 most talented artists of the 20th century Matisse I do not imagine had such a fear of death.
Moonlight
Title: Re: I lost my singing voice when I saw my friends were N's....
Post by: Sela on April 21, 2006, 01:39:54 PM: Hi Portia:

Thanks for the link. What a sad way to find out about a friend's death. :( Have you read Dawkin's books?
"The Selfish Gene" sure sounds interesting.

Quote
I do read bits of scripture sometimes. I like a lot of what Jesus said. I don’t like a lot in the Bible, especially the anti-women and anti-children stuff. It’s too ancient for me, generally. I like facts,...

Sorry P. Didn't mean to indicate that you don't read it and I should have put a couple of those :D :D smiley faces after suggesting the bible as the publication to read ( :D :D 'cause I was joking a little there......kind of in a serious way eh?).

Anyhow....ya.....I don't like some of that stuff either but I guess I think of the bible as more of a history book than anything and that's the way things were (re women and children). Compared to today....there are improvements now, I guess. Also.......for me, the bible is sort of how you explained the 4 agreements are for you......how you use what makes sense to you......to help you. So it's all good, in the end eh.

Moon: I love what you wrote! Especially:

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there are too many dumb fridge magnets

and
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I am not anti war I am pro peace

8) 8) 8)

:D Sela
Title: Re: I lost my singing voice when I saw my friends were N's....
Post by: moonlight52 on April 21, 2006, 02:06:23 PM: Hi Portia and Sela, I had to drive hubby to airport on only one cup of coffee so I was not quite awake when I first read your post, I did not click on link. I am now fully awake and have read what a fine man your friend was Portia ,he wrote on Monty Pylon ,Dr. Who and he was a scientist well, this guy lived a full life and is missed and dearly loved and a genious.WOW.Gets you thinking about whats really important every minute we have on Earth is important.Because when we are in Heaven we will be in such heavenly bliss it will be just total bliss you know .Here is where the action is and all the learning.Oh yeah another answer for all of mankind's problems Faith that we can do the job we are here for.
Sela, It was Portia That wrote about" the dumb fridge magnets" thats why you liked it so very much I bet , I can not claim authorship."The Selfish Gene "does sound a good read.Thanks
love and light
Moonlight
Title: Re: I lost my singing voice when I saw my friends were N's....
Post by: Portia on April 24, 2006, 08:18:39 AM: Moon
Thank you for inspiring me with you and your hubby’s deep sense of morality. I can’t see any military use for water purification but yeah, night vision goggles, not just useful to me if I want to go owl and badger-watching eh?

I always used to wonder, about the threat of nuclear war, if it was true that we could blow ourselves up. At the time, we were certainly led to believe that we could pretty much destroy the planet with mutually-assured destruction. But I wonder. I don’t know the ‘facts’ (if they exist) but I always thought it was a wee bit arrogant to presume that we were ever that powerful. Even if we managed to destroy every human (and that would difficult), life would go on. Without us! Boo-hoo, so what? We’re inherently N, we have to try and put it to good use. Think we can change things for the better. Use it to our advantage!

I didn’t know Picasso was afraid of death but it figures. I agree with you about his character though, yep “women are either goddesses or doormats” – wonder what his mother was like?

Hey I wish I’d known Douglas Adams I really do. I read all his books. Write has a quote of his as her sign off. He was so human, accessible and so funny. Made quantum physics understandable! Well maybe not. But a huge imagination and love for life.

Sela
Nope I haven’t read Dawkins yet. Think I might. The thing is, I’ve been doing so much thinking of late, revisiting old ideas, and I find reading Rowe and now getting a hang of what dawkins is talking about – well….does this happen to you? I get to some theory I think I like, think makes sense to me and guess what, it ain’t new and some other person has written about it. And I don’t like to read their stuff until I’ve come up with my own view. Then I can read and see if it’s in agreement or if there’s stuff I haven’t thought of. Like I was deeply embroiled in the question “why do people have children” for ages. I really had to find an answer for me, to be at peace about it. And I found it and then chanced upon The Selfish Gene and thought noooo! I don’t want to be infected with your thoughts yet! I need to bed down my own views first! Haha. Once I think I have a view, then I want it challenged, if you see what I mean. But I have to get to my own view first, otherwise….I might be too influenced…I might be too gullible and taken in by someone else’s view.

For example. I’ve said before here that I know very little about religion. Which is sort of true, but then, I’ve read and picked up stuff along the way. And only now am I overcoming some internal tapes rejecting all religious words and being a bit less irrationally prejudiced. I know what you mean about it’s like the 4 agreements. It depends on our interpretation. Background: my mother always told me that religion was rubbish and that she rejected it. I had a look at it as a kid and thought nope, not for me and did the same - but I did look and I was critical. I saw a lot of bad stuff and stuff that didn’t make any sense to me at the time. I was shocked when mother told me (in recent years) that when she first got married in church, she was at the alter expecting to be struck down by a lightning bolt. My brain fizzled ??????? what the heck? Why? I asked her. And she said something like: “because I was so anti-religion I was like the devil himself and was expecting to be punished”. Which makes her a believer in my book. She believed and she rejected it, believing it to be true!

How sick and rebellious and narcissistic is that? One, to think that God would care! Two, to spend your life rebelling against the ultimate good!

Ahh but I think she thinks God was her mother perhaps, so then it makes sense.

But to me it shows the muddled thinking of a pre-schooler. Kind of “if I think it doesn’t exist, it will go away” and then living in fear of it. Or is it like the comfort of imagining you are persecuted, i.e. that someone somewhere is out to get you because you are so important? And what could be more important and life-affirming than to be persecuted by God?

I wonder if this is how Madonna thinks? (as in the Material Girl of course). She once said she wouldn't be happy until she stood next to God and you gotta think, that's pretty sad.

All very odd. Thanks for the space :D
Title: Re: I lost my singing voice when I saw my friends were N's....
Post by: Sela on April 24, 2006, 09:56:42 AM: Hiya P:

:D Don't laugh. :D I think I might be the exact opposite of you when it comes to forming most of my opinions about stuff. I think I have to take my time.....forming opinions because I feel like I may miss something and form the wrong one. I want allllllllllllllllllllllllllll the available information. I want to hear what everyone thinks. I want to see as much demonstration as is available and I want to think long and hard before I make up my own mind.....take a stand........form a view or theory......or decide most things.

Hahahaha! I'm laughing because it's like I have no brain of my own. :roll: :mrgreen: I want to hear what others think first and see the facts.....if there are any......before I pick a position. That's pretty N of me eh? Although......(pant pant)......I did say......."want to hear/see/know..." not "have" to. I don't have to hear anyone's thoughts on stuff and it's certainly a choice to wait until I do hear what others think before I decide. It just seems like a reasonable thing to do....usually (mostly because I feel like I don't know much and so I need information). And I guess I don't always do it that way.

Hahahaha!
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....expecting to be struck down by a lightning bolt.

Or lifted up by angels??? ( :shock: :shock: shake head icon here please). That stuff only happens to special people.....like Jesus........
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She believed and she rejected it, believing it to be true!

My first reaction is .......anger. I feel mad at her for a) jipping you out of a good thing by portraying it as garbage; b) pretending one thing and then actually living another (being such a hypocrat!!).

It's like telling a kid chocolate is horrible tasting stuff or apple pie will give you hives (while keeping a stash of chocolate, all for herself, or sneaking pieces of apple pie to honk back in private with glee), and like pretending she doesn't believe in vampires, while secretly hanging garlic cloves in every knook and cranny of heeeeeeeeer bedroom!!! (leaving yours......garlic clove-less and therefore open prey to vampires!!) :x :x

But........then she's a toddler.

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How sick and rebellious and narcissistic is that? One, to think that God would care! Two, to spend your life rebelling against the ultimate good!

It's amazing how many people think God punishes them......that when bad stuff happens......it's God's way of punishing them. (what a waste of time the ultimate judgement day would be then eh? If everyone has already been punished for their misdeeds here. Ha! I bet God has better things to do. :D And He's saving the big fun for that last day too, I bet!!

But just like a toddler.......she rebelled eh? Against the idea......of something bigger.....something more powerful.......unseen.......something all-powerful and gooooooooood. She is afraid of Him but refuses to worship Him. Just like a 2 year old.

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But to me it shows the muddled thinking of a pre-schooler.

It does doesn't it? And I feel mad thinking she was in charge of teaching you stuff for so long. But....I have great faith in your wonderful brain!! You can think for yourself and so you will make your own theories and test them for yourself.....as you say....or have them tested by others and that's a great thing!! You've done such a good job of raising yourself P!! And you're doing a great job of thinking for yourself!!

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Once I think I have a view, then I want it challenged.....

That's so wonderful! It shows that you're interested in making sure what you think is correct/reasonable/sound... (insert appropriate other word/s for that last batch).

I'm not sure if you're wanting your theory about God/no God tested or not? It's a bit like believing in magic.....in miracles......in Santa or the Easter Bunny. I think I was a really weird kid in a way because I had a sneaking suspicion that Santa did not exist (but I had/still have this deep belief/feeling that God issss). I kept trying to figger it out and prove my theory about Santa!! One Christmas eve I was able to do that. I went to bed when I was told to but I stayed awake. I waited and waited and listened. My aunt and uncle were visiting and I could hear the adults talking...in a muffled sort of way. There was the odd laugh and I could tell they were just chatting, as adults do. Then, I heard the muffling get sort of quieter.....like they were trying to speak even quieter (the adults). I heard: "Put it over there, it looks better".

I jumped out of bed and I ran down the hall into the living room. There, on the couch......was the stuff from Santa!! I said: "When did Santa get here?" and the adults all turned to look at me with expressions of horror!! My uncle took me by the arm and led me out of the room, into the kitchen and asked me if I was thirsty? Did I want a snack? He said it was late and I must have been dreaming and just woke up and I should go back to bed soon because Santa wouldn't come until everyone was asleep.

I said: "He was already here. I saw the stuff. I know it wasn't Santa too. It was you adults who put the stuff out". And my uncle said: "Oh, no, no, no. You must have had a dream. There's nothing put out. Come and look!" And he led me back into the living room, where low and behold.........all the "stuff" was gone. The other adults were sitting around, looking relaxed, smiling, and acting as calm and innocent and serene as a field full of daisies! But I knew. I knew I had proved my own theory correct. I knew I hadn't slept or dreamt. I knew I saw the stuff. I knew they had hid the stuff, after I saw it. I knew what I saw and I knew they were trying to keep the magic alive......the story of Santa.....in my head.

I didn't say anything. I just went back to bed. I felt disappointed that there really wasn't a Santa. I almost wished I hadn't gotten up and found out. I wanted my theory prooved wrong (deep inside). I wanted there to really be a Santa!! I pretended like I believed ......for a long time after that.....but I didn't. I did it....to please everyone else, I guess. I could see they had gone to such trouble to keep the magic....the dream....alive and I didn't want to ruin it for them.

I guess I didn't think about how I was going to feel, once I prooved my own theory correct. I learned the truth....true......but for some reason......the untruth...the dream......the magic... felt more comfortable and I liked it better.

This turned out longer than I was planning. :roll: Better quit before that big read 20,000 character thingy pops up!! :mrgreen:

(((((((((Portia)))))))))

:D Sela

PS: Hey Moon! That is so cool about your hubby being a scientist and I love that he quit his night goggle job on the basis of principle!! Strength of character....I think it's called. He's got it!! I'm glad you're with him!! ((((((Moon)))))
Title: Re: I lost my singing voice when I saw my friends were N's....
Post by: gratitude28 on April 24, 2006, 10:30:52 PM: Some thoughts on all the posts here...

I adore Douglas Adams... have since he first came out with his books (I was in college). I just reread Life, the Universe and Everything. It's harder to read his works now as I want to study every sentence :)

I had a terrible time forever forming opinions. I couldn't do analyses for school. I thought everything I read was "right" and I coudn't dissect anything. Guess why? I wasn't allowed an opinion at home and my mother's opinions always mirrored my dad's, even when she didn't know what he meant! It has taken years.

You mentioned Madonna. OK, she's weird as are so many of the "stars," but the one good thing is that we are seeing some nowadays who are looking for spirituality. (Although I think the Scientologists are just whacko cultists).

The other day my kids and I were reading the paper and saw that someone had won millions. We talked about it and agreed that we didn't need that to be happy. We want what we have... However, if we did win millions, we could pursue art and travel a bunch and spread goodwill in our free time!!! I am so proud of how grateful and kind my children are. It's their best attribute!

I think the media makes us feel doomed. I don't think we are. I think good will prevail.

Love you all.
Beth
Title: Re: I lost my singing voice when I saw my friends were N's....
Post by: j_stice on April 25, 2006, 02:49:12 AM: Sela,

All I can say is that people change and whilst you moved on to look at things in a differenent way with new perspective some of your friends haven't the most damaging thing you can do is blame yourself for this now. You realised that this was not an easy step to make but started in a good process of seeking the right type of people in your life.

I got told something whilst I am dealing with my problems (yeah I know I am not the best person to say this): your new improvements in your life have allowed you to take the next step, if you feel that some of your friends aren't ready or capable of taking the steps with you.... Don't worry you will have friends that will and for all those friends who can't you will find others that do. Move on with the knowledge that you are becoming (or in your case are) a better person. You have the strength to make the positive changes in your life feel free to make to see the strength as it is... the ability to work and improve.

One last thing: Never doubt the steps you take in life because you end up taking them for a reason just remember the reason won't always be revealed you at the time. (I read the above in the book the 5 people you met in heaven - it helped me through some stuff).
Title: Re: I lost my singing voice when I saw my friends were N's....
Post by: Portia on April 25, 2006, 08:16:29 AM: Oh Sela! :? What did I say up there? About how we reach theories (or beliefs?). I said: Like I was deeply embroiled in the question “why do people have children” for ages. I really had to find an answer for me, to be at peace about it.

Well…..let’s see if I can get this out. I didn’t know nuthink about narcissism or personality disorders and I came here….and learned a lot. Yah, like you say, I got all the information I could and filled my head up with it. So I agree with you, if I don’t know anything about a subject, I’ll get the info. And then try to shred it, ask myself why I feel uncomfortable with it (John Bradshaw) and ask is it me? Or is this really unscientific claptrap? Am I actually being manipulated for someone else’s profit (or advancement of their lunatic ideas), or do I just *feel* manipulated? Or if I feel too comfortable with it….is that okay? Am I taking an easy route? Etc.

But if I have a question which really bothers me – like the children question – first I gotta work out what stuff has gone into my brain in the past to make me even ask the question (many people wouldn’t ask that question right?) and then a sort of germ of an idea starts to develop. I did start looking for information, for answers from people and I wasn’t satisfied, I started analysing their answers and it said more about them, than the answer to the question. Interesting stuff. I didn’t know I was going to end up in evolution and biology, no idea. But in a sense, maybe I did, because I knew I was asking the ‘motivation’ question. And where else would the answer be? (For me.)

So I agree with you about the way we do it, it depends….

About the lightning bolt stuff. It doesn’t bother me how it affected me as a kid. What bothers me is her totally illogical brain processing. That kind of illogic horrified me, especially in your own mother eh? You think someone thinks basically like you do and it’s shocking to discover that you’ve been very wrong. I don’t think she was being hypocritical although it looks like that. I honestly think she thinks like that: that ‘not believing’ is simply ‘reacting against’. Which kinda makes sense at that age I guess. A kid says “I don’t believe you” meaning “I don’t want to do that” or “I don’t accept that” or “I want my own way” or even “I don’t understand”. ?

She didn’t teach me much at all, not capable. I know that she thought that what she knew, I automatically knew, by being one and the same person as her. Sick. I know this for sure. She grew up with classical music in the house, I did not. But she expected me to know the stuff she knows. That is seriously un-real. But lots of people do it – imagine everyone thinks and knows what they do (and that those who don’t are mad, bad or sad).

It’s weird, going to the library and thinking: I can read anything I want to. I can find out about anything, I have the right, the ability and the freedom to have information. :D I could overload on those thoughts!

I'm not sure if you're wanting your theory about God/no God tested or not?

Not sure I have a theory….it depends what anyone means by it. For me, ‘God’ means what other people have told me it means for them. Seriously. It means hvbdhfbgvjh to me. And you might say - what is hvbdhfbgvjh?

See what I mean? You have no concept yourself of what hvbdhfbgvjh is. That's my meaning of ‘God’ - it comes entirely from other people, I have no meaning of my own. (That doesn’t mean I want one. Do you want hvbdhfbgvjh? What you don’t have, you don’t miss - unless you’re envious of what you perceive other people might have. I might be curious, but not envious.) Hey I haven't put it that clearly before i don't think. :D Hope it makes sense. :?

I pretended like I believed ......for a long time after that.....but I didn't. I did it....to please everyone else, I guess. I could see they had gone to such trouble to keep the magic....the dream....alive and I didn't want to ruin it for them.
Ummmmmmmmmm. Sela. What can I say? As that child, I think you were way too responsible for adults’ feelings. I don’t think you would have ruined it for them. I don’t like living a lie because I lived amongst them for so long. I guess some lies are almost necessary. Or maybe they are necessary to some. No, it doesn’t sit with me. I don’t mind other people having their lies, but I don’t want them. Yes it’s lonely and no I wouldn’t spoil a lie just to make a point. But pursuit of the truth is way more interesting for me.

I learned the truth....true......but for some reason......the untruth...the dream......the magic... felt more comfortable and I liked it better.

Fair enough and I value your amazing honesty Sela. I can’t/won’t do that for or to myself. Happy to do it for others. I celebrate Christmas with decorations. Each year I say to myself ‘this is to make it brighter in the darkest time of year: no more, no less’. I do that because part of me feels hypocritical and then I want to take them down. But I like how they look and I have to understand what it is I like. It isn’t magic, it’s the effect of the lights and colours and it’s warming and pretty. It’s also my very own tradition and I like a bit of tradition (doing the same comfortable thing each year, a sense of continuity). I like it now for what it is and I try to be honest about what it is. If it starts to feel dishonest, I’ll stop doing it.

The effect of all those lies on me! I might have been a happy-go-lucky type of person without all those damn lies! Even Christmas wasn’t exempt, putting up cards from previous years, pretending that people had sent them this year. Or maybe not? Not understanding that it isn’t the tradition, you don’t do that, the whole point of cards is that you get a fresh batch each year and if that batch gets smaller, tough. You don’t lie to yourself about reality. Because that’s madness to me. Or at least I saw it as madness. It drove me half mad. And when I questioned it? That’s the occasion he called me “evil”. I was called evil for wanting the truth. Or so I see it. He was of course just protecting their personal mad world and attacking me for threatening it. What a lunatic. Whoah. Still got some stuff in there eh? Gosh. Cause and effect eh? I can see why I am the way I am.

Thanks for the brain work out Sela. Blimey that was hard work 8)

Hi Beth

I’m going to go back to Douglas Adams too; I remember his jokes and need that relief! I loved the ‘Total Perspective Vortex’. And Zaphod’s reaction to it! Totally N and wonderfully funny. Thanks for reminding me some more.

I had a terrible time forever forming opinions. I couldn't do analyses for school. I thought everything I read was "right" and I coudn't dissect anything.
I’m shaking my head and thinking you must have done so well to overcome that. It sounds crippling. I knew I had opinions, I just thought they were mostly ‘bad’ or stupid. But I can try and imagine your confusion.

We talked about it and agreed that we didn't need that to be happy. We want what we have...

Aren’t kids great???? :D And they have such wisdom. You must be a great mom, no doubt about it, with those answers. 8)
Title: Re: I lost my singing voice when I saw my friends were N's....
Post by: Healing&Hopeful on April 25, 2006, 09:48:10 AM: Quote from: j_stice on April 25, 2006, 02:49:12 AM
Sela,

All I can say is that people change and whilst you moved on to look at things in a differenent way with new perspective some of your friends haven't the most damaging thing you can do is blame yourself for this now. You realised that this was not an easy step to make but started in a good process of seeking the right type of people in your life.

I got told something whilst I am dealing with my problems (yeah I know I am not the best person to say this): your new improvements in your life have allowed you to take the next step, if you feel that some of your friends aren't ready or capable of taking the steps with you.... Don't worry you will have friends that will and for all those friends who can't you will find others that do. Move on with the knowledge that you are becoming (or in your case are) a better person. You have the strength to make the positive changes in your life feel free to make to see the strength as it is... the ability to work and improve.

One last thing: Never doubt the steps you take in life because you end up taking them for a reason just remember the reason won't always be revealed you at the time. (I read the above in the book the 5 people you met in heaven - it helped me through some stuff).

Hi Sela

I really wanted to reply to this thread but was having trouble with how to put what I thought into words... and then with the replies, I was getting a bit lost in the responses, but I read this and thought... yes, that's it. J_stice has said it much better than I ever could.

Take care

H&H xx
Title: Re: I lost my singing voice when I saw my friends were N's....
Post by: Sela on April 26, 2006, 11:32:11 AM: Hey (((((all)))))):

Hiya Stormy: Thanks for the cartoon. I love cartoons. They can say things so much clearer than plain old words, sometimes eh? That one reminds me that my friends don't have NDP (as far as I know). But they sure acted Nish......or at minimum........selfish.

Thinking of and looking out for self.
Is that self-preserving?
Taking care of self first.
That's what we're supposed to be learning to do...isn't it?
When is it not ok to do that? When is it or is it ever more important to think of others first?
I'm confused. :? :?

Too much self-preservation is just selfish....Nish.
Not enough is door mattish.......tolerating abuse.......being a martyr, etc.
Where is the happy medium? How to stay close to it, most of the time?

I'm sure I've behaved selfishly in the past. That doesn't make me N.
It makes me human.

The same goes for my friends. They aren't baddddddd people. They are only evolved animals, like we all are.

The few internet friends I'm mentioning here are only a drop in the bucked compared to the real life friends and the hurt I felt over their selfishness.

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All I can say is that people change and whilst you moved on to look at things in a differenent way with new perspective some of your friends haven't...

Justice....... :shock: :shock:..........do I know you? Do you live near me? Have we met? ( :D just kidding a bit). That is sooooooo accurate. It really probably is what happened. That doesn't make any of us bad people, does it? Or N? It just means we have different views. I assume some of them acted pretty badly due to their strong views and because of whatever emotion was driving them (I can guess).

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the most damaging thing you can do is blame yourself for this now

Thankyou Justice. I'm going to remember what you said. You really helped. Thankyou so much!

Dear H&H: No worries. Anything you have put into words so far has been good/fine/etc. Thanks for reading and thinking and posting, even when it's not that easy. I appreciate that so much.

Portia: How are ya? I hope you're good and well and enjoying life!

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Am I taking the easy route?

Please direct me there immediately!!!! :D :D I will gladly take it, if you don't want it!! I love easy stuff!! Where the heck is that map!!! :roll:

Ya. If there is an easy route........I seem to miss it. Oh well. As long as we get there eh?? :D 8) :D :D

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For me, ‘God’ means what other people have told me it means for them. Seriously. It means hvbdhfbgvjh to me. And you might say - what is hvbdhfbgvjh?

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I have no meaning of my own. (That doesn’t mean I want one. Do you want hvbdhfbgvjh? What you don’t have, you don’t miss - unless you’re envious of what you perceive other people might have. I might be curious, but not envious

That was good and clear P. Hmmmmm. hvbdhfbgvjh? Would you want it?

I imagine, if I were able to imagine being in your shoes, having been taught (and I assume believing for so long) that hvbdhfbgvjh is rubbish.........I probably wouldn't want hvbdhfbgvjh either or be interested in hvbdhfbgvjh.

Do I want hvbdhfbgvjh? I think, if a great number of people in the world were somewhat excited about hvbdhfbgvjh, if there where great and gorgeous buildings all over the place where people go to worship hvbdhfbgvjh, if there was a book like the bible passed down from time, containing information related to hvbdhfbgvjh, a book that is used in our courts to swear upon, if hvbdhfbgvjh were mentioned in my national anthem, if holidays were celebrated in hvbdhfbgvjh's honour, if people went around using hvbdhfbgvjh's name in vain and thanking hvbdhfbgvjh, every time stuff went right and praying to hvbdhfbgvjh on their death beds.........

.........I think, honestly, I would be seriously interested in knowing a whole lot more about hvbdhfbgvjh.

But as I said, if your mother told you hvbdhfbgvjh is rubbish, whether in words, actions, or simply by communicating and instilling that attitude in you...........I can see how that would mold your thoughts and feelings about hvbdhfbgvjh.

I think people who despise God and teach their children to do so are acting just as those who are fanatical and teach their kids that all life evolves around nothing more than God.

Both are equally a disservice and feel, to me, in my heart, like abuse.

It might be said that teaching my child that chocolate is awful stuff and so is apple pie......is not abuse. Denying children indulgences in life is not abuse. But I think lying to them is. And......especially, if you sneak around and eat chocolate and apple pie, when you really need it.....want it.......are afraid you'll miss it.

I didn't finish my Santa story either. Mostly because I felt like I'd yacked long enough, which I probably did. :roll:

Anyway......I guess what I was trying to say by relating that experience is that I had a theory about the truth, which I set out to proove, and which I was not happy, in the end, to know the truth about.

But that was as a child.......in my immaturity.......part of my development. After awhile........I became more comfortable with the truth. It helped me to feel like I knew something important. I was glad to learn that there really was a St. Nicholas who went around giving to poor children. I understood that it is a good thing...to celebrate that kind of giving at Christmas. After awhile........I liked the truth better than the fantasy but I had to first.........know it..........then.........learn more about it.......and finally.....understand it before it was something I accepted and felt good about.

I'm not directing you in any way. I hope you will perceive that. I'm just trying to put in a word for chocolate and apple pie and hvbdhfbgvjh. It's not all bad. It's not poisonous. It won't hurt you unless you eat too much of it or get fanatical about it. It's acutally......pretty good stuff (well.......I can't say for sure about the hvbdhfbgvjh.......but I imagine if there was that much attention being given to it in this world......it would be something important to get a handle on).

I'm glad you're curious P. That's a great trait.

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She didn’t teach me much at all, not capable.

So sorry for that, Portia. :( :( :(

But I keep saying because I mean it......I'm so impressed with how well you have done and are.....regardless!!

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Fair enough and I value your amazing honesty Sela.

Thankyou for saying such a nice thing P.

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I like it now for what it is and I try to be honest about what it is. If it starts to feel dishonest, I’ll stop doing it.

Hey. It's a holiday! Until eveyone who does not believe it's Jesus's birthday...stops celebrating it........you're not dishonest. You're going with the flow P. Sometimes, that's the best way to go (like the easy route...where the heck is that route....that's all I want to know!!! :mrgreen:). I see nothing wrong with liking Christmas lights and enjoying all the Christmasy stuff.....it's quite beautiful. The season brings out the best in a lot of people and it's a good thing for all, I think. I don't think God made it a holiday.....people did........so no worries about enjoying it being some indication that you're taking advantage of anything (if that's the worry?). You're not hypocritical for putting up lights or eating Christmas cake or even sharing the joy.
Hypocritical would be doing those things and then pretending not to like them. It would be doing them and then criticising them and those who do them. It would be putting on a fake tolerance while secretly loving every minute of it.

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The effect of all those lies on me! I might have been a happy-go-lucky type of person without all those damn lies!

Lies really do hurt. Lies almost have a corrosive......dissolving qualitiy to them. Like they ferment stuff in me or something. That's what lies are like for me.

I've been visualizing a big pot of lies lately (I mentioned before, I think, that sometimes I relax in comfy spot and visualize myself standing beside this big boiling pot, which is cooking over a fire and I watch stuff evaporate or float away, like baloons, as it escapes from the pot). Lately, the pot is full of lies and they are boiling......cooking......and one by one they rise up and float away into oblivion.....where they pop......like balloons. It's quite fun to imagine and I'm hoping it's lifting some of the weight of the lies and decreasing their value.

They really are worthless. Lies. They have no value. They are good for nothing. Eh?

That's what I think.

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You don’t lie to yourself about reality. Because that’s madness to me. Or at least I saw it as madness. It drove me half mad. And when I questioned it? That’s the occasion he called me “evil”. I was called evil for wanting the truth.

Son of a..............!!!! :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

Was he NDP? Or just Nish? Or just sick? Or just a lyer????

Who cares?? That was soooooooooo mean and heeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee is the eeeeeeeeeeeeevil one!!!

Calling a child evil is, imo, one of the most horribly abusive things a person can say to a kid. It goes hand in hand with : "I hate you" and "You're nothing......of absolute no value". :x :x :x It's bad! Bad!! BADDD!!!

Gee P. And his awful words left such an impression on you. Sure wish I could help to lift the pain of those words. Sure wish I could say something so healing......so good........so kind......so much more impressionable......something that would boil up those awful "you're evil" words and send them floating into oblivion and cause them to pop....like a balloon.......and be gone forever. :( :(

They're a lie!! He was lying!! Rather than admit the lie they were living......rather than tell the truth......rather than face reality.......he projected onto you and told you a big, big, huge, big lie!!!

You are not and never were ......evil. That's bullshit!!

You were and are a good person, Portia, NOT evil!!!

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He was of course just protecting their personal mad world and attacking me for threatening it. What a lunatic. Whoah. Still got some stuff in there eh? Gosh.

Hey......no need to whoah. Maybe it would be a good thing to just keep going and get it out!! A good rant??
Why not? You can't hurt this thread!! Nobody here will mind......if you feel like it will help!! Go for it P!!

I wish I had a magic salve to put on all of our wounds. Life is too short.

:D Sela
Title: Re: I lost my singing voice when I saw my friends were N's....
Post by: gratitude28 on April 27, 2006, 12:26:49 AM: Portia,
I LOVE your conception of God.
Love, Beth
Title: Re: I lost my singing voice when I saw my friends were N's....
Post by: Portia on April 27, 2006, 06:06:56 AM: Oh it's a biggie, good! Hi Sela

I think people who despise God and teach their children to do so are acting just as those who are fanatical and teach their kids that all life evolves around nothing more than God.

Agreed most… fervently! (haha where is that happy medium?)

After awhile........I liked the truth better than the fantasy but I had to first.........know it..........then.........learn more about it.......and finally.....understand it before it was something I accepted and felt good about.

I'm not directing you in any way. I hope you will perceive that.

Yes I do. I read your post yesterday and knew from my reaction that I wasn’t LISTENING to you! I was reacting. My reaction was “I don’t think you understand me on this” then I thought….how do I know? I’m jumping right to that conclusion with one quick read. I’m probably missing half or more of what you mean. And I did.

I'm just trying to put in a word for chocolate and apple pie and hvbdhfbgvjh. It's not all bad. It's not poisonous. It won't hurt you unless you eat too much of it or get fanatical about it. It's acutally......pretty good stuff

Yah. I’m good at seeing the bad stuff. I think that was the legacy of mother’s er….ideas. (I call them ideas but I don’t think they were ‘ideas’ in the true sense. They were warped feelings, more like, maybe. Reaction against her mother. Oh who cares….). So yep, in a sense I was set up to reject it.

This kind of honesty isn’t easy. I’m challenging what I think are my real values and beliefs and finding them to be ….. received conditioning of old. Not new well-considered thoughts.

Darn.

But I can see now that it isn’t all bad and it’s not poisonous. You saying that to me, putting it in those words – bad and poisonous – is pretty ….. interesting. And that comment in itself shows my…prejudice. Oh this hurts :D. Thank you Sela.

Taking a break to make coffee and unload the washing machine (talk about from the inspiring to the prosaic)….

Thanks Beth :D.
Title: Re: I lost my singing voice when I saw my friends were N's....
Post by: Sela on April 27, 2006, 09:48:32 AM: Hi again Portia:

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This kind of honesty isn’t easy.

No, it sure isn't. And it is brave and admirable and not everyone has the resolve you do......to be certain of yourself and your own head. Now it's my turn to value yourrrrrrr amazing honesty!! I do P!! Big time!! 8) 8) 8)

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I’m challenging what I think are my real values and beliefs and finding them to be ….. received conditioning of old. Not new well-considered thoughts.

Darn.

I hate it when that happens. :shock: :? And it's not easy to change what I've relied on for years and years, even if I suddenly realize the old stuff was simply impregnated in my brain by other people. The old thinking keeps popping back in (for me....it's gone that way anyhow) and it takes effort to reject the old.

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But I can see now that it isn’t all bad and it’s not poisonous. You saying that to me, putting it in those words – bad and poisonous – is pretty ….. interesting. And that comment in itself shows my…prejudice. Oh this hurts

Uh-uh! You're mother's prejudice. She's the one who (regardless if it was her messed up feelings/whatever reasons).....taught/insinuated/portrayed/????......the rubbish thingy.

To me......rubbish can be poisonous and toxic. It can be yucky and bad. Rubbish is not nice stuff usually. So that's why I said: "bad and poisonous" because the extended meaning of the word rubbish......means so much eh? As a child.......would we want to eat rubbish? play in rubbish? even be near rubbish? Oooooooooo yuck!! No way!!

Best to stay away.....get away.....ooooooo.........stinky...awful.....toxic poo. ( :shock: :D reminds me of the way six year old's love to use toilet talk: "You're full of poo!!" "No, you're full of poo!" "No you are!!" "No way, you are!!" :D).

Hey Portia!! I don't always listen either!! Sometimes I'm stone deaf, like a brick wall!! Thank goodness some have had the patience to hammer and chip away at the cracks. Thankyou for the times you've done it.

((((((((P))))))))

:D Sela
Title: Re: I lost my singing voice when I saw my friends were N's....
Post by: Portia on April 27, 2006, 10:04:09 AM: :D Hahahahahahah Sela!! this -

Surely if there’s an easy route it must be…..

A trap! :shock: Or wrong! :o Or ‘not-worth-having’ because it isn’t suffering! :? Like: “oh nooo, I won’t go swimming in that nice, clear, warm pool over there…noooo, I’ll go instead for that big crashing dangerous ocean!” *big huge sigh*

......I'm so impressed with how well you have done and are.....regardless!!

Ah. Thank you. I believe you. You know I think it’s mostly chance though? And that whatever it is, isn’t much really but who’s deciding and judging and comparing and in the end it doesn’t matter but it’s the now that matters and not the end? Haha, verbiage. I guess I mean – I don’t want you to be impressed. I feel uncomfortable with you being impressed. I think that’s okay too. I’d be happier if you were happy. So I’ll take it to mean that. Done! :D Let’s shake on it?

But I am impressed by you using hvbdhfbgvjh. That’s commitment! Thank you. Commitment. Yeah.

Calling anyone evil is………………..? there are very few absolutes it seems

But calling me evil. I was 17 (same age as you and ‘I hate you’??). I wasn’t a child, I wasn’t an adult. Evil for saying “why?”.

Aurrrrrrrrrrrrghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :|

It must have been a life and death for him at that moment. ?

Mother has told me that he told her: when he was small his mother was very close to him and loved him totally. She was with him all the time. Then one night, when he was 6/7/8/???older? she told him she was going across the road to the pub for a drink with friends. Maybe with his Dad? I know nothing about his Dad, even if he was around or not. The story goes: “I remember going to the window downstairs and putting my hands on the glass and watching her go across the road and into the pub with everyone else. I didn’t think she should be leaving me.”

And back to recently, in living in that remote place, with very few visitors, and with me out of the way, no jobs to go to, he got his woman and he made sure she didn’t leave. Apparently it got to the point where he was following mother around the house. If she went to the toilet, he’d be in the hall, waiting. He didn’t ‘let’ her have her own bank card. He controlled all their money. A prison with a one-man cult. Just before he died she told me he said “you are my love after all”. Chilling and sad at the same time. His ashes lie with those of the cats because that’s what/who he loved the most, his cats. He wasn’t ‘sane’. And she wasn’t sane to stay. Actually it scares me now. It was pretty dire and it could have been much worse, given the practical circumstances.

Your new post!

And it's not easy to change what I've relied on for years and years, even if I suddenly realize the old stuff was simply impregnated in my brain by other people.

Talk about mastery (or mistressery?) of the understatement :D. Have I said recently:

You’re a joy, a friend, a healer :D Well I did say it, really quickly before anyone notices and you get embarrassed!

BTW yes, mother's kiddie talk, it’s all 6 year old toilet talk when it comes down to it. All of it. Amazing. I'm constantly amazed 8)
Title: Re: I lost my singing voice when I saw my friends were N's....
Post by: Sela on April 27, 2006, 11:03:56 AM: Quote
Surely if there’s an easy route it must be…..

A trap!

Or an illusion? Or a mirage? Or a dead end? Or a fake?

Yep. Hahahahaha! :shock: :oops: I do that. Swim with the sharks instead of in the safety of the pool.
Well.....they say whatever doesn't kill us.......makes us stronger!

Me?? Strong like bull!! 8) (some days......other days........Not!!).

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I think it’s mostly chance though?

Ya. I want to agree with you but.....nope. I don't think so. I think you can give yourself credit. Some of why you are the way you are is because of your own unique attributes, talents, skills, knowledge, gifts, smarts, genetics etc. I know there were others who helped (your grandparents) but really......you must have a certain.......resilience.......within you, imo, that has helped you to help you too. A kind of Independence? Something just about you that helped you reject the worst and embrace the best, I think, and kept you from emulating and dancing and playing the part your mother wanted you to play? I guess it could be luck? Lucky for you that you have certain traits of your own eh?

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I feel uncomfortable with you being impressed.

Sorry Portia. I sure don't want to cause you discomfort. Maybe I said that wrong? What I mean by impressed is that you leave a good impression with me. An impression that I like and yes......I'm happy and let's shake on it!

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But calling me evil. I was 17 (same age as you and ‘I hate you’??). I wasn’t a child, I wasn’t an adult. Evil for saying “why?”.

Close, I was 16, I think? I think of 16, 17, 18 even 21.......as kind of still a kid. I know technically that's not the case but emotionally??? No that grown up at those ages and still in need of.......loving parents, in a big way (do we ever get too old for or stop needing loving parents??).

So my opinion of him saying that to you (and my parent saying what was said to me) at those ages is still child abuse. When does child abuse end and adult abuse begin? Especially, concerning parents behaviour toward their offspring/step children? Like you say we weren't babies and we weren't adults but deep down inside.....we were still children, weren't we?

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there are very few absolutes it seems

Yes, that's certainly the song I sing, most of the time, but when it comes down to it.....this is pretty obvious and especially...since I can't think of a time when it would be ok to call a child/teen "evil" or say: "I hate you" or "you're nothing" to them.......when that would be acceptable behaviour on any adult's part??? I'm willing to go absolute there. That's absolute emotional abuse and not something I'm willing to accept as ok to do to any child/teen (and I hesitate to include adult....because of our other discussion, awhile back, but ok.......limited to certain severe situations maybe?). Basically the words are hurtful, cruel, destructive and seem to show a desire to injure....not nice stuff, I think.

All of the little sad icons you posted I interpret to mean great sadness......great sadness caused by his abusive words.......to a young almost adult. His words pierced because at that age.......kids are very sensitive, I think. They are really developing emotionally and words like that from someone in a position of power and trust.........are very damaging/can be very damaging.

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He wasn’t ‘sane’.

And I'm sure there are reasons for that and he has his how pain. I just don't want to discount or let it go without acknowledging how much pain his behaviour caused. It doesn't matter that he wasn't sane. If he was sane and said those words......it wouldn't matter either. It's the words that hurt. That left the mark. That went to your core, I think. Not him. He's dead and gone. But for some reason, the pain of his words are alive and well.

Why? Maybe you believed those words? Somehow he convinced you at that moment?

I feel angry but not really toward him but toward his behaviour. He was sick which probably caused him to behave in a sick way but knowing that does not erase the hurt and/or the belief that his words caused in you. That kind of thing can cause a person to feel worthless.

It was a lie!! I want to pierce deeper than him!! You are good and were good then!! It's good to want to know and live the truth!! And you've managed to keep trying, regardless of his mean words!! You've prooved him wrong!! :D 8) 8) :D 8) :D :D :D :D :D :D

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You’re a joy, a friend, a healer Well I did say it, really quickly before anyone notices and you get embarrassed!

Too late P. :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: But thanks. You too. You are all of those things too P and not just to me, I suspect.

I just hope you will find a way to cook those awful words he said.......boil them up into a sloppy soup....and keep on high heat until they evaporate/disintegrate/or simply float away and burst, like worn out, weak balloons.......somehow......expell them from your head and especially......from your heart.

I'm so sorry he hurt you so badly with his cruel words, at such a tender age, and for all the years those words have continued to hurt. Makes me wonder what he said to your mother, behind closed doors. Maybe he wasn't all lovey-dovey all the time eh? Talk some more if it helps P.

Youch!! Gotta get hoppin'!! Hope you enjoyed your coffee break! Laundry!! Does it ever end? Mine is piling up again. :roll: Hope your day is a beaut!! (same to all!!)

:D Sela
Title: Re: I lost my singing voice when I saw my friends were N's....
Post by: Portia on April 27, 2006, 11:18:28 AM: Have a good one Sela :D

While I remember, in the later and crazier years he angrily said to her (in front of witnesses, but not me): “I’ve told you! You don’t have to think! I do all the thinking around here!” (((((poor cult-member mother)))))......

I better go. My bum’s numb :? :D

Edit PS All of the little sad icons you posted I interpret to mean great sadness
If you ever doubt the effect of your words…those icons meant I literally had a good sob. At the time (17) I chose to run like the wind, which was probably a sensible move at the time. Now I don’t have to run. I can cry. Okay enough already. Too much. It’s taken long enough eh? Thanks for your persistence and wonderful obstinacy.
Title: Re: I lost my singing voice when I saw my friends were N's....
Post by: Hopalong on April 27, 2006, 12:40:27 PM: This has been a beautiful dialogue to witness, and a gift to witness it.

((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((Portia)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
(((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((Sela))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

Thank you.

Hops
Title: Re: I lost my singing voice when I saw my friends were N's....
Post by: moonlight52 on April 27, 2006, 01:24:23 PM: Hi all Choosing Love is a good belief system.We need to step forward maybe,hoping,not to never make a mistake ,but rather allowing oneself to be human and make mistakes with joy in our hearts.
The Sisters of Mercy are LOVELY LADYs Angels indeed
moon
Title: Re: I lost my singing voice when I saw my friends were N's....
Post by: Sela on April 28, 2006, 12:28:51 PM: Hiya'll:

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Close, I was 16, I think?
I was rereading and just wanted to clarify that by this I meant that I was somewhere around 16, I think, re the experience I was referring to of mine, discussed on the other thread (I think called: "Is it ok to say "I hate you"?), where my mother said: "I hate you" to me.

Just that when I reread it looked like I was arguing what age you were, P, when your step-dad called you evil.
( :shock: :D hahahaha!! N-extreme-o!! "I was 17" !! "No you weren't. You were 16!!" :shock: :D :D)

Communication. :roll: So tricky eh? A missed word or two here or there can make all the difference sometimes eh?

Oh P, yes, your mum was like a poor cult member, in a way. She was the only member, besides her leader though eh? It is sad. :( :( To be that hooked. I imagine she was abused too, emotionally, by him?? Did she worship him/obey him/follow his direction like a good little cult member? Man! It's scary to think of being in such a state!! I think it is very scary. :shock:

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those icons meant I literally had a good sob.

(((((((((((((((((((((((((Portia)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

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Now I don’t have to run. I can cry.

It's a release. It's releasing the hurt. Sorry to think of you crying, P, but glad for the release it must be.

Like what Mum said before about going through or sitting with our pain and just feeling it (hope I got that right and I'm sure others have mentioned that). It is necessary, I think. And it won't last forever. But it's necessary to help get rid of it.....release it and let it finally go. It's a good thingy in the end......crying.

We all need a good cry now and then. Like a good laugh eh?

((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((Hoppy)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((moon))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

Thankyou both too for reading and feeling.

Sela