Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: ezpzlemonsqueezy on April 26, 2006, 06:11:58 PM
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I am a single dad raising a daughter. I met a beautiful woman in September. One month later we were talking about marriage. She told me how I needed to dress GQ. She was a dental hygentist who said "let me clean your teeth". When I awoke from the nitrus she told me that she had made an appointment for me downstairs at the full service salon where they not only gave me a haircut but they shaved my chest and my back. Later on she told me that I had more hair than an arrangatang when I met her and it scared her. A couple of weeks later she insisted that I completely redo my wardrobe. She gave me incredible sex. She would tell me how she was going to make me a better lover and teach me many things. She would say things to me like "if you go into a store and see something that you like that is your cue not to buy it because your have no taste". She dropped her daughter off at a women's shelter one time and told her to live there if she could not follow the rules at home. She told my fourteen year old daughter that all Men want to get into a women's pants. She kept asking me what the highest position I could get in my company. She blamed everything on her ex-boyfriend including her own daughter's personality. She told me that no man had ever left her and that she is never wrong. I am part jewish and she asked me if I was going to wear a yamulke when I made love to her or be her little gefilte fish. She told me that she wanted to completely redo my kitchen with new ceramic tile,granite countertops, stainless steel applicances. When I told her that I wanted to make changes at a pace I am comfortable with she told me that If really loved her I would do the things to make her happy. She wanted to be able to move her elderly parents into my house and when I refused she said that I was not family orriented. When I told her that I we needed to put off the marriage for a while because I was scared now she told me that I had mental problems and she thought I may be retarded. She would never admit any wrong doing. It was always my fault. We broke up February 20 , a month later she had four boyfriends and now only 2 months later she is serious with one man. Any comments? Will she do the same thing to him?
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Hello, Ep:
My comment is that the real question is, what did you do to yourself? It all flows from the first fatal error, imho, which was opening a discussion of marriage after you'd only known her 4 weeks.
I'd strongly recommend a book by Judith Sills, PhD, for you, called A Fine Romance.
The issues with her are not the important ones. The issues with you, saying Yes to many things you did not feel comfortable about, are the ones to tackle.
Best of luck, and I'd thank your lucky stars she's out of your gums for good.
Hopalong
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Hiya ezpzle
To be perfectly honest.... sounds like you had a lucky escape. Can you imagine if you had married her? How much more of you would you have been prepared to give up?
When I told her that I wanted to make chances at a pace I am comfortable with she told me that If really loved her I would do the things to make her happy.
Making changes at a pace your comfortable with is a very reasonable request.... do you think she respected your decision?
This is the one line if any friend or family member said to me in the future, they wouldn't see me for dust.
Will she do the same thing to her new man? Probably, is my honest opinion.
I'm sorry if this post sounds harsh, I don't mean it to be, but I am glad you're not involved with her anymore and you have the chance to move forward and meet someone who is worthy of you, as you are.
Take care
H&H xx
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In a word:
CONTROLLING!
Will she do the same thing to him?
You betcha...
"move along- nothing ( new ) to see here"!
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WOW, Ep (I can't even type the whole thing...sorry)
How would I classify her? Just plain awful/evil/ugly inside/insecure/out of her mind/BAD person.
I hope you count your lucky stars hourly for that narrow escape.
My question is: is great sex REALLY that important to a man? Geeeeeez. Talk about giving up your soul! LUCKY LUCKY YOU!!!
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Ez,
I'd have to go along with the others here and ask you... why did you put up with all this? What was the final straw for you? Why did it take you so long to get there?
Please figure this out so that in the future you can look for a secure relationship (especially since you have a child who must be around healthy role models). I believe your daughter must come first. How did this look for her? Would you let someone treat her that way?
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thank you every one for your insight.
I got into the relationship because I was looking for a complete family again. On paper it looked perfect. She had a wonderful 17 year old and I had a 14 year old. She came off as being so caring in the beginning with the dental work and she actually started buying me clothes repeatedly. She also wanted to talk to me constantly and be with me constantly. I did not realize what was happening. That was my down fall.
Everytime she would show up she would bring a new shirt. I started getting nervous because it seemed so excessive. She bought 3 winter coasts for me in a month and a half!
She became so overly critical of me ( you brush your teeth wrong, you point the hangars in the closet the wrong way, chew with your mouth closed, Don't leave water around the sink, your look like gomer pyle, are you cheating on me, you fold your socks the wrong way ,your cleaning standards are not up to mine) that i started losing self-esteem to the point where I could not even wash a dish correctly in my own house.
She came up with elaborate plans to redo my entire house and to add additions. At first I did not say anything because I grew up being told that I was overly sensitive so I questioned my own feeling's and wondered if I was just over reacting and should I try to please her? , At the beginning of January we went to pick out tile together. There was tile for the floor, the countertop and above blacksplash. I told her that I did not like her choice for the backsplash and a big argument broke out. She spent six hours in the car ride home telling me that I was psychotic, retarded and mentally ill. The next 3 days she kept calling me and I would not answer the phone because she kept saying that I had mental problems.
When this all happened I did not even know what the term narcissistic meant. I spent a month reading on the subject and every trait they mention such as lack of empathy, verbally abusive, projecting , blameless all apply to her. I don't think she understands what she does because she claims she is a good person. I have never found someone so sure of themselves in a conversation. The thing what happened is that I found her so impossible to deal with that I thought that maybe I was crazy myself.
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Hi Ez,
Ns are great at making you feel like you are going crazy. They target sensitive people, knowing that you WILL question yourself. It's like they have some innate knowledge about how far they can push to make you feel like everything is your fault.
I am so glad you got out of the relationship. Please forgive me for telling you to concentrate on your daughter, but, having come from a home wiht an N mom, I can't bear to see a child go through that. What was your first wife like? Were she and your daughter close?
Have you had other relationships like this or was this a first? The reason I am asking is because you might want to look and see if you follow a pattern of behaviors so you can figure out what you can change to find the sort of relationship you truly desire.
Please keep posting.
Love, Beth
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Hey EZ,
Finally, a subject I have something to contribute to.
I met my wife in a dental hygienist's chair. I'm a pretty hairy guy too. She had a 13 year old. I asked her to marry me about three months after we started dating. :lol:
On the other hand she had (and has) absolutely none of the pathologies your hygienist does. My wife was very reluctant to even give me her phone number when a few days later I came up with some lame dental hygiene question as an excuse to talk to her again. Your's sounds like you called up central casting for a textbook NPD psychopath.
I hope to God you aren't missing her.
I'm not sure thinking about marriage after a month was your first fatal error though. It sounds as though you were thinking about marriage before you even met her. There's nothing wrong with that of course as long as you keep your head screwed on straight and aren't motivated solely by your 'feelings'.
Your second mistake was the great sex. Sex is not just fun and games. It tends to unscrew our screwed-on-straight head. It is an extremely powerful drug that skews our perceptions and judgements. That's why spys and blackmailers (and psychos) use it; Because it works.
There was a thread awhile back in which some gal told how she found an excellent husband by respecting herself and making him prove he respected her as well, by being cautious and circumspect. If you find a gal who acts like that I suspect you would have a lot better chance of finding someone worthy of being your wife and a mother to your child.
I can't remember who the gal was that wrote that post. It was beautifully put though. Maybe someone else remembers.
mudpup
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Your's sounds like you called up central casting for a textbook NPD psychopath.
Mud: your sense of humor and down to earth wisdom is refreshing, and missed here. Thanks for writing.
I can't remember who posted either, but I agree, she simply stated her boundaries, without games (although some thought it was too premeditated, I recall). And I thought she maintained her own dignity and truth, actually, with a happy outcome.
EZEP: ( do I have it yet?): Thanks for the detailed last post.
I know I can be bullish when it comes to my home (having lived as a single mom for so long) so when I finally move and my husband and I buy a house.....I will remember NOT to be a brat (as he is very very nice and will almost put up with anything...) and let him have a say in the decorating....
(Now that's painful to say, as I am an artist and do home decor as a sideline). Anyway, thanks for the reminder to be a team player.
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I think it was me that wrote the post Mudpup referred to.
OK, I think we need a list of things that guys need to do and watch out for when they are dating to make sure they have a good gal.
A couple of months ago, my son informed me that his wife is divorcing him. They live in a European country and I have actually only met my daughter-in-law six times in the last eight years. The first time I met her before they were married I thought she was wonderful and I really liked her. Two years later when they visited, I began to be a little uneasy. My husband met her three years ago and although he says he doesn't dislike her, he doesn't want to be around her. The last time I met her was last Christmas. She was the most horrible guest I have ever had in my home. I think she must have thought she was staying at The Ritz and that the sevice should have been better.
My husband and I thought that if she made my son happy, then her pushy personality was none of our business. We both thought my son was happy. Now over the last two months my son has been telling us just what went on in that marriage. She sounds like a milder down version of EZPZ's girlfriend.
My son is now seeing a psychiatrist every week. He is amazed that he was living with abuse. (Hiis father is a classic N and we didn't divorce until my son was 14. Also my mother was a N.) He moved to Europe when he was 18 for training in his profession.
What are the red flags guys can watch out for? I think one would be if she tries to change you in any way. For instance, if she wants you to dress different. My daughter-in-law did this.
One of the problems with N's is that they can put on a really good show in the beginning. So another thing to watch out for would be trying to hurry the relationship along.
Another one would be wanting to spend all her time with him and calling constantly and demanding to know what he was doing all the time.
What are some other things to look out for in a woman?
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Here are some which I have learned to watch out for.
Never accepts any responsibility for failure or mistakes in the relationship or any other relationship
Talks openly about physical experiences in the past with others
Use's expletives on a regular basis.
casts you immediately in the role of the love of her life
go through your personal belongings while waiting for you to get ready
acts in a patronizing and condescending manner and criticizes you often
is very sarcastic
expresses negative and aggressive emotions towards the weak, the poor, the needy, the sentimental, and the disabled?
is very jealous
very accusatory.
is much more comfortable giving lectures.
tells you that if you love her you would do 'x'
tells you about everyone that has a crush on her.
is extremely stern with her children for unknown reasons
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ezpz: there is another word for your girlfriend. It's a simple one syllable word, many times prefaced with the adjective "total"......but it gets way too much airply nowadays, and has lost it's meaning. And besides, I hate to disrespect all canines of that gender by calling her that (my dog has more manners, anyway).
Have a great day, you lucky lucky man.
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I miss you too Mud!
Hops
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EZPZ,
I have some suggestions for members of either gender for getting into a relationship:
1. Keep it casual for awhile in order to get to know the other person and objectively observe their behaviors before the lust and hormones kick in.
2. Observe how they treat the people who service them. Are they polite and kind, or mean and demanding? I think this is a very good barometer of how they will treat anyone they deal with on a day-to-day basis.
3. What kind of relationship do they have with their children if there are any--and don't just take their word for it. If they blame the ex for their not having a good relationship with their kids--that is a major red flag, imo.
4. Don't hesitate to check court records or do a background check if he/she is a total stranger. Talk to friends or co-workers if the situation presents itself.
5. If the person wants to enter a serious committed relationship in a hurry, that is another red flag. If a relationship is good, it will still be good and hopefully getting better after a reasonable amount of time has passed and you have gotten to know each other better.
6. Do not enter a relationship thinking that you will change the other person's habits or behaviors--especially if you are older and more set in your ways. Be prepared to walk away from someone with behaviors you can't live with, or learn to be flexible and compromise. You will never find the "perfect person," nor are you perfect. Deal with it.
7. Don't accept a relationship with someone who does not respect you for who you are today. We all deserve to be treated with respect, kindness, and caring. We deserve to find someone who has a desire for intimacy (not just the physical part of that), wants to share their life, discover the joy, make new memories, and love you unconditionally.
EZ,
Consider yourself very blessed to have gotten away from that predator. She would have sucked you dry before she spit you out and kicked you to the curb. As others have said, take some time to figure out why you allowed her to treat you the way she did.
My question is: is great sex REALLY that important to a man? Geeeeeez. Talk about giving up your soul! LUCKY LUCKY YOU!!!
I wanted to ask this same question. How many men out there are thinking with their lower extremities?
Brigid
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Thanks mum and Hops.
And thank you Jona for reminding me who said that good stuff.
mud
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My ex N's behavior was very similar. He didn't show all of these behaviors in the fast pace yours did. We had an 18 year relationship. I was 19 when I started seeing him romantically.
I had never been in love with anyone before, so I didn't realize how fast our relationship got serious. I just thought that my relationship was what everyone experienced.
I noticed pretty quickly how crictical he was. I also noticed our differences. He was very detailed oriented, perfectionist. But then, he was also very sloppy and sloven when it came to things he did and how he took care of himself and his home.
He become overyly critical when he was teaching me to drive stick shift on our way from Oklahoma to South Florida. I told him to back off and quit yelling at me. The more he yelled; the more nervous I would become and the more likely I would put the car in the wrong gear.
I was 19 and I think I looked pretty good in a bathing suit; I've always been pretty curvy. I would not say that I was overweight at all. He said that I needed to start watching what I ate and workout more often.
When you are 19 that is probably the time when your figure is probably the best. It really hurt my feelings. I told him that I would start once he started.
His being critical never got any better for me. I felt like I was walking on egg shells all of the time. I kept trying everything I could try to make things better for us.
I changed my religion. I started my own business to have more time to spend with him. I made new friends, because he did not like my old ones.
I tried being overly nice to him. I tried being mean and rude to him. I tried ignoring him.
I tried being "Miss Suzy Homemaker" for him, "Miss Corporate America" for him, "Miss Super Slut" for him.
I kept noticing all along it felt like he was emotionally unavailable to me. When we would have rare emotional connections afterwards he would be even more distant to me. This was so confusing. For we would be so close and loving to one another one day; then he would be so withdrawn and distant to me the next day. I would wonder what I had done to cause him the act like that.
I finally just signed up for therapy. I decided that I couldn't give up until I truly thought I had given our relationship the best shot I could. Now I wish that I hadn't spent so much time with this person. I just loved him so much. I truly thought that he loved me too. When I met him he was 22 years old. He changed somewhere along the way or maybe his true personality just started surfacing or the False identity started to show.
That is what is so confusing to me. If you meet an N at a very young age do you ever see there real personality?
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Hi TNT,
It sounds like you were smart enough and strong enough not to get sucked in the whole way! Good for you! Next time trust your instincts. I think being young, like you said, you don't have comparisons as to what is healthy/normal. NOW YOU KNOW!
Hvae you defined what you DO want out of a relationship? That will help you determine whether a person is right for you and your life.
Thanks so much for sharing your story!
Love, Beth
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Welcome, TNT. This really confuses me too:
That is what is so confusing to me. If you meet an N at a very young age do you ever see there real personality?
I hope somebody has some insights on this for both of us!
Hopalong
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Thank you, Storm.
This needs more thinking about.
Maybe I'll start a thread.
Hops
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Some of these posts seem very flippant in their attitude toward what you've been through and that bothers me. You've just been through a traumatic, manipulative experience that changed you as a person. You were confused and rightly so. I would advise you to read as much as you can about this type of personality disorder so that when you encounter people like this, you will know what to do.
Your question: how would you classify this girl? She's someone who treats the people in her life as objects. She doesn't see you (or any boyfriend) as a real true-life human being with thoughts, feelings and attitudes of your own. Is there hope? People can change, but even after therapy for this type of personality disorder, many people still treat others badly. There are people out there who are respectful, loving and empathetic. Good luck.
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Dandylife thank you for your comments
I have an appointment with a doctor on monday and Wednesday because I need some help. I am continually waking up at 3am in the morning reliving the entire 6 month experience. It is if I am looking to blame myself. I am feeling a lot of signs of depression and I cannot raise my child or do my job if I am sleep deprived. I flew into Florida yesterday for a visit with my family and I could not stop crying when my sister picked me up at the airport. It is getting ridiculous.
I am trying hard to de-personalize the whole thing..I consider myself a pretty good guy. I seem to be sufferring thru some naivety in which I can't understand how someone would do that to me.
I keep reminding myself of all the things she told me about her ex-boyfriend who she dated for ten years who never proposed to her and he earns twice my salary. In summary she told me that she stayed with him for ten years out of convenience and how he would not marry her because he was too concerned about his money. Last year as soon as I said I loved her she dumped him and she was onto me. This year within weeks of a January 23 ultimatum from her where I said i could no longer commit to marriage because of the abuse she was onto a new guy. She boastfully told me over the phone how he wanted to her to take him shopping and that he said that if she married him she could retire This is all in the space of a few months and now they are serious.
We always have this image of monsters as uniformed world leaders. Accepting the fact that a monster may also come in a persona which is adorable is lesson to be learned.
I am trying to accept the fact that it is all part of the Narcissistic Personality Disorder.
I have been trying to medicate myself by reading some of the Sam Vaknin sites on NPD.
What they say applies so much to my ex-g that it is scary.
"Classical, full fledged" narcissists victimize. Nothing evil here, nothing premeditated, no sinister grins. Simply an absentminded, offhanded, kind of indifference and lack of empathy. And a lot of hurt people.
Narcissistic individuals do not tend to be physically abusive although there are some out there that are. Their worst weapon is their mouth. With their mouth they spit verbal negations and dispense emotional abuse. Their vocal cords are their method of attempting to control others.
Nor can the narcissist come to terms with his need for help or acknowledge that wrongful behavior on his part may have contributed somehow to the situation. His self-image as an infallible, mighty, all-knowing person, far superior to others, won't let him admit to shortfalls or mistakes.
Happiness, joy, and the effort to please others is not normally undertaken by the narcissist except in the beginning or potential ending of a relationship. At either of these points, the narcissist may be charming, helpful, pleasing, and amusing beyond imagination. But, this effort is only used to obtain a new narcissistic supply source or to win back the affection of an important source if abandonment appears eminent. At all other times, the narcissist believes his/her presence, is clearly and abundantly sufficient to maintain the loyalty, trust, affection and respect of those which the narcissist already considers his/her object. So, the narcissist will postpone, withhold or procrastinate the continuing efforts that are essential to maintaining any kind of meaningful relationship. A narcissistic person is unable to fake the emotion of love for another for a long period of time. This impairs the capacity for a committed relationship with a narcissist. Therefore, marital instability and promiscuity are prominent in those with NPD.
Narcissists can be happily married to submissive, subservient, self-deprecating, echoing, mirroring and indiscriminately supportive spouses. They also do well with masochists. But it is difficult to imagine that a healthy, normal person would be happy in such a folie a deux ("madness in twosome" or shared psychosis).
Then, when reality conflicts too often and too evidently with this figment – he reverts to devaluation. His behavior turns on a dime and becomes threatening, demeaning, contemptuous, berating, reprimanding, destructively critical and sadistic – or cold, unloving, detached, and "clinical". He punishes his real life spouse for not living up to his fantasy, for "refusing" to be his Galathea, his Pygmalion, his ideal creation. The narcissist plays a wrathful and demanding God.
The problem with being the narcissist's supply of adoration is that it does not come without verbal abuse and negation. In the end the narcissist will verbally abuse his supply in such a manner that if they do not need him excessively he will run his supply off. This is what the narcissist fears most--the lost of his supply. Unfortunately the narcissist is a narcissist and, therefore, is incapable of being anything but a narcissist. In the end he accomplishes what he fears most--losing his narcissistic supply.
The narcissist is also so paranoid that it is difficult for others to withstand his paranoid episodes. All things considered, usually the greatest amount of time that anyone can take the narcissist's paranoia and the abuse dispensed by the narcissist is two-three months. Then his supply needs a break.
The narcissist is not in touch with his emotions. Therefore, he does not care how he hurts others. He does not see others as human beings with feelings and needs. He has no empathy for others and cares only for himself. The narcissist never completely lets go of any individual he has found that can provide him with narcissistic supply until he finds that he can no longer stir up any type of sensation in that person whether it be positive or negative. Only then will the narcissist let go. Or, if the narcissist finds a better source of narcissistic supply he will quickly throw you away.
The narcissist is attracted to people that are inferior to him. Associating with these people makes the narcissist feel superior and confident that he can maintain his narcissist supply and control his supply. Although, he would like to socialize with the high status people whose names he frequently drops, these individuals will seldom tolerate the narcissist's inappropriate behavior for any length of time and in actuality these individuals evoke fear in the narcissist.
Narcissists have little sense of humor. They don't get jokes, not even the funny papers or simple riddles, and they don't make jokes, except for sarcastic cracks and the lamest puns. This is because, lacking empathy, they don't get the context and affect of words or actions, and jokes, humor, comedy depend entirely on context and affect. They specialize in sarcasm about others and mistake it for wit, but, in my experience, narcissists are entirely incapable of irony -- thus, I've been chagrined more than once to discover that something I'd taken as an intentional pose or humorous put-on was, in fact, something the narcissist was totally serious about.
Narcissists will never accept the blame for anything that happens in a relationship. They are quite ready to blame the other person involved. They expect to be the center of attention in a relationship and demand their every wish be fulfilled by their partner.
Don't expect the narcissist to get better with age. By the time they are old they have pushed everyone who has ever tried to care about them away. Their narcissistic characteristics also seem to increase after the death of parents or loss of others that have exerted some type of control over them.
A relationship with a narcissist can at times be fun and invigorating. After the relationship has come to an end, for the non-disordered, there maybe a feeling of let down or boredom. A relationship with a narcissist is like a roller coaster ride--there are extreme highs and lows. Be thankful the relationship has ended. The best advice for anyone who is presently involved with a narcissist is to RUN! The relationship won't get better. Also, it's better to get out before the narcissist snatches away all your self-esteem. Remember, their worst weapon is their mouth.
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ezpz,
I have an appointment with a doctor on monday and Wednesday because I need some help.
Is this with a therapist or psychiatrist or your primary care physician? I understand the sleep deprivation issue and your need for medication to deal with that. However, if you are falling into depression, just getting more sleep will not fix that. When my xnh left me 2 1/2 years ago, I couldn't eat or sleep and was dealing with severe situational anxiety and depression (we had been married for 22 years at that point). As was talked about on another thread recently, I would strongly recommend getting into therapy, but also find a psychiatrist who can prescribe and monitor anti-depressants, if that is indeed what you need.
It is if I am looking to blame myself.
Yup, that is how they make you feel. Most of us have gone through that at some point. Just know that it is not your fault and over time you will come to terms with that.
Simply an absentminded, offhanded, kind of indifference and lack of empathy.
This is a good description. It left me feeling like I had entered the Twilight Zone once he showed his true colors. They also are very good liars and live by the lie.
Narcissists have little sense of humor.
This is one I would have to disagree with. My ex was (and still is) very funny and loves to be the center of attention with his humor. He often doesn't get why his humor may be inappropriate or hurtful to others, but he is still a funny guy.
It took me over 2 years of intense therapy with a wonderful therapist to understand why I hung around for all those years and ultimately suffered so much when he abandoned me. It was the best thing I could have ever done for myself, and something I would probably not have done if the marriage had remained intact. I hope you will consider doing the same. Do it for the sake of your daughter and for yourself. There is a reason down deep why you allowed this woman to suck you in and make you think you loved her. You need to figure that out and heal that part of you so you can look for someone in the future who will be good to and for you and your daughter.
Blessings,
Brigid
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Hi Stormchild and Brigid,
To answer your questions..
1. I am going to a psychiatrist for medication.
2. We met through one of the most popular dating web sites while she was still with her boyfriend which was unknown to me. She was not sure when we would get together because she was about to go on two trips. Little did i know that these were planned trips with the 10 year boyfriend. She gave her phone # and here is the exact message she sent -- from the dating web site (with the phone number's removed)
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"You can call me when I return, if you would like to. My mobile # **********. We return on 8-28-05. I may go away again on 8-30-05 until that Sunday, I'm not sure yet."
Well I have to get ready, the car service is coming for us at 4:30am.
Thanks for the email. I hope you have a wonderful week.
I'll look forward to your call.
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we met six days later
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Teen age girls can be very perceptive.
The last time I got together with this woman my teen daughter would barely speak to me.
After about three days I said to my daughter "why are you barely speaking to me?"
My daughter replied "dad do you have any idea what is going on here?"....."do you realize that the last time we got together she made it sound like everything was your fault"..."can that be possible?".....she want on to say "my own friends who have been over for dinner say that she picks on you constantly". "Dad, they don't like her and worst of all they think the chicken she makes is way too dry"
Finally after a few days my ex girlfriend in one weekend...criticized my dress, my dentist, smelled doo doo in my car, lectured my friends daughter who she never met before for an hour and told me I had no credibility regarding the break up with my wife 10 years ago. That was all I could take..and then when I tried to discuss it with her all she could say was "there you go making yourself a victim again!". I said "is this a joke because I cannot believe what you are telling me?"..."I told her that I could not take it anymore"....She replied "OK have a nice life and hung up". I think she had new narcissistic supply ready to take over.
My daughter said "Dad I know you are unhappy - but I am so glad it is finally over!"
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I have a had a very interesting life to say the least.
My ex-wife deserted my daughter and I ....when my daughter was five years old. She did not even leave a note. For five years I did not even know if my ex-wife was alive. Can you imagine what the police think when someone goes missing like that and there is no note? Because I had no note and had no concrete information I always told my daughter the only truth at the time that I knew that her mom was missing...I had to take a lie detector test as if they thought I killed her or something..It was hell. I was actually able to get a divorce by going thru the court process on my own.
In the early years I just did not know what to do...I took my daughter to a lot of plays (sound of music,King and I) and concerts (spice girls). After five years I finally found out that my ex-wife was married somewhere in Colorado with 2 kids. We don't know her phone number and my daughter has not spoken to her mom in ten years. BTW my ex-wife has not seen her own father since that time and my daughter and I see him on a regular basis.
I don't why I got involved with someone like my ex-girlfriend. I just always had the desire for a complete family again. When I met the ex-girl friend I was confused by her supposed love of family and me. My mother is actually very loving and nurturing and nothing like her. But I think It is my easy going style that makes me a target. I have a very nice house and a real good job. However I never know when to be assertive. I am too busy trying to be a nice guy and be fair. Also I don't think that I ever had been attracted to someone physically as I was her. I forgot all the real important things.
The desertion of my wife and the effect on my daughter and I is something I will never find funny for as long as I live.
Returning to the saga of my ex-girlfriend. She did not think it was such a big deal about my ex-wife's desertion or what I went thru and this is where her narcissistic lack of empathy was on full display. She would tease me and say "you are not going to box me are you?" which translated means "you are not going to kill me are you?". If anyone out there thinks I should find that funny than please let me know because after not knowing if my ex-wife was alive for five years I can't laugh at that.
We were having lunch that final weekend in February ( 2 of my long time friends, myself and the ex-girlfriend)...That was when she made the comment regarding the desertion of why ex-wife...."<my name removed> you have no credibility regarding your's ex-wife's disappearance and I think you are playing <my friends name removed> and I for fools"....as if I was a liar....Why would I make up a story like that?....that I was all I could stand...that was it.
How could someone be so abusive in their words? I did not know it then but I know it now...as muddpuppy said so eloquently in an earlier thread ...I must have unwilling made a call to central casting for a textbook NPD psychopath!
Ex-girlfriend of mine, I don't care how desirable you on the outside...I don't know who your new guy is. I hope he is not out there now buying that engagement ring after two months. I hope he does not ever have to suffer the way you have made me and countless others suffer. You have been doing this to men since 1991 when you divorced your first husband. He is going to figure you out! Life is just too precious and you my little sweetie are just not worth it!
As for me...I am going to heed all the kind words and advice spoken by these people and heal myself, be the good person that i know I can be and move on.
ezpzlemonsqueezy
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I took my daughter for therapy during the first two years after my wife's desertion. The therapist would basically have my daughter play with blocks and make drawing's to interpret her feelings. The therapist at the time felt that my daughter was fine.
The approach I have taken for years is to encourage my daughter as much as possible. I truly believe that she can accomplish whatever she wishes. She has been a dancer since she was five. She made all city as a first chair flutist in our town's school system. She has a lot of friends and she is the goalie for the field hockey team. She has had a boyfriend for two years who appears to come from a very nice family. I have been over there many times and they are very nice. She is on the phone with him every night helping with math homework. She tells me how many of the girls her age are starting to drink and smoke but that she wants no part of that.
I am starting to make plans for her sweet sixteen next year, her first car and she is starting to tell me what her career goals are. With all that has happened she tells me the other day that she thinks she may want to become a psychologist since all her friends come to her with there problems.
She has such a sense of self that it is a wonder that she is my daughter. She has much more self-esteem than I have.
Somehow and I know it sounds crazy, I have never felt that I fit in being a single dad raising a daughter. I just did not think that society really allowed for that. I have aways felt like the odd man out. I always felt that no one would be interested in me because I was a raising a child and that I was a full time parent. What would I have to offer since i cannot drop everything because I have a daughter that is the best thing that every happened to me. Knowing that I have an ex-wife that deserted us has always been an embarrassment to me. What do people think? I don't want anyone to think that I am a monster or anything because I am truly not. When the ex-girlfriend made jokes about my ex-wife's desertion that is the worst thing that anyone could say to me.
I always felt that the man who was not raising a child would be picked over me. I think that this belief has led me to get into some relationships with the wrong people. I seem to gravitate towards women that are really controlling. I always begin relationships as the guy who is the answer to their dreams because on the outside I am going along with every thing they say because I want to be accepted and I am always questioning myself and asking if I am maybe too sensitive?
This is exactly what I did in the last relationship. I was probably the only man who put up with her abuse so to her it appeared that I was the man of her dreams when on the inside I thought she was abusive. This coupled with the fact that I do not trust my own judgement has created some confusing situations. Based on what happened I am just feeling so unloved now. I think she is abusive. She thinks she is not and that I am the one with the problem. No matter what I do and no matter how hard I rationalize it is so hard for me to accept that she is the way she is because of NPD. I want so much to blame myself and I cannot figure out why. In my opinion if you threaten your daughter by pulling up in front a women's shelter and telling her to get out than that is abusive?
I basically want to live a quiet live and be happy. Right now i am feeling so unloved and I am thinking very negatively. I know objectively that this does not make sense but this is where I am right now and I am hoping I can change things around. It seems so real to me. After this thing with the ex-girlfriend this is the worst that I have ever been.
EZ
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OK, there's a lot here, whether you know it or not. Do you? If you stick around, we could probably help you a lot with this... What about being a nice guy to yourself? Did you ever think about that? Most likely, you've been trained (by a parent) to take care of others - their feelings, instead of yours. When you're trained to do this, it becomes very hard to 1) figure out what you're feeling and 2) ask for what you want. This is a recipe for disaster in a relationship. Trust me, I know!!
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Bean, you have it! that's it. I was raised to be the "good boy" by my mother
I spoke with my mother this morning and she was basically raised the same way...to be the good girl.
She admitted to me how she got into the wrong relationships because she wanted to be loved. Marrying the first husband after six weeks.
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Hi, EzPz: I am sorry your daughter's mother deserted both of you. Someday (maybe now?) you will see this as a blessing that was meant to be.
Bean has touched upon something similar to my experience.
I noticed in your last posts that you feel negative and recognize that you may be drawing the same, by way of the natural law of attraction, to yourself. I hope that by sharing a little bit of my path, you might see some light for yourself.
She has such a sense of self that it is a wonder that she is my daughter.
Do you see how in one sentence you say what a wonderful person your child has become....(that girl you raised by yourself) and immediately denegrate yourself? It is NOT a wonder she is your daughter. She IS so wonderful BECAUSE you are her father. Now, start saying THAT to yourself.
What I have learned is that our self talk is what drives us. Where is your self talk driving you?
I, too, came from a wonderful, loving family, and did not have a N parent. I did not choose an N (ex) husband because he was like my father. As a matter of fact, he was polar opposite. I chose him because I needed to learn things I could not learn any other way. And, fatalistic as I am, I believe I was destined to have these wonderful children.
I honestly thought, that to be a "good girl", I had to place my needs and desires LASTLAST LAST! And that probably came from my own interpretation (through birth order, past lives, astrological sign......assign any reason you wish...I don't know, really!!!) of my families' general religious/spiritual bent. I took it to mean that I was a victim of others, a martyr, if you will....and that itself, kept me a "good girl". God forbid, I should do anything "selfish" or even self preserving. If so, well then the deep self loathing just set in again.....giving me the outward appearance of a confident person but the innate esteem of a pile of oatmeal.
Everyone else's opinions about me meant so much more than my own. As my mentor said, I gave up seniority over my own life.
But, just so you don't ADD to the self loathing, understand that it only helps to take inventory of your life, AFTER you decide you are worth more. Otherwise, you will just say: what a jerk I am/ have been for thinking poorly of myself...and the cycle of self abuse continues.
When I hit bottom, so to speak, it was my son who prodded me to get it together.
I started to see (therapy helped!!!!) that I had made choices in life, based on my core beliefs. I had to look at what those were.
I decided to change them, and thus change how things were manifesting for me in this life.
One thing that helped me, was to look at (I read everything!!!) just how belief systems drive our actions and thus our experiences. How energy, that invisible yet undeniable force in everything, works in life, in relationships, etc. AND I decided that to change my life, I had to change my MIND. That's where everything starts....with our thoughts. I analyzed exactly what I told myself about myself. What I knew to be TRUE and what kind of life experiences had overridden that truth and become the voice in my head.
I decided. I changed. I can't count on others changing. Only I can change. Our only true power in this world is internal.
Well, I could go on and on and on. But MY telling you (and I'm sure most people here would agree, too) that you are a deserving, wonderful man, and that your ex GF is a total N/freak, and that you have been dealt a nasty blow by your ex wife (and I mean NASTY, what with all the fallout), matters naught. OUR opinion cannot mean more to you than YOUR opinion about yourself.
Maybe you can start there. Give yourself a break. This being human is about being fallible. It's also about being compassionate, not only to others, but to ourselves, as that is where love starts....the love we have towards our own humanity.
I wish you lots of love, light and insight!!
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Mum,
Thank you for sharing these beautiful insights with ezpz. I'm finding them helpful to myself as well.
I always tell people,"I was raised to be 'a good girl' and that is not 'good'." And you have explained exactly why that is so. It makes so much sense.
Ezpzlemonsqueezy: Mum is right--your daughter is so great because she is YOUR daughter. Now you need to believe that.
Pennyplant
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It was obviously some obsession on my part that caused me to originally post this topic last week. The breakup happened in February and I did the posting at the end of April. Although I was very honest in all the information I provided I would say that my major driving force was that I needed validation of my story.
I hope the following besides being an update...may help others understand why they choose bad relationships and then why they cant let go... There may be some similarity. Some of you may think I am absolutely full of it or out of my mind!!!!!!!!!!!!
As a followup I have visited a psychiatrist. Over 2 visits I gave a full history including my family and I have also related other times In the past where I have obsessed about personal relationships or work related issues. Remember I am the one who initiated the break up while I am also the one doing the obsessing.
While I am not an an alcoholic or drug user, It does seem that I have some characteristics which are similar to my father. He was an uncontrollable gambler and was married five times. I have no interest in gambling. The similarity is that we both obsess. He obsessed about gambling. I seem to obsess in personal relationships.
The observation of the psychiatrist is as follows...Where Gambling was a drug to my dad...someone like my ex-girlfriend was like a drug to me. Someone who was very exciting but at the same time a bad person for me. Her bad behavior somehow lifted me up like a drug. Without her I am depressed while at the same time I know that she is no good for me. So at the moment I am stuck.
What seemed to be happening is that no matter what anyone would tell me when I reach the rumination phase... I will look for anyway to blame myself and need constant validation of her NPD traits to kept myself convinced that I am not to blame. Any validation I have received to this point does not stick in my self conscious. The need for constant validation has been a major issue. First of all it has not worked and second of all I drive my friends and family crazy looking for it. The problem is that I seem to fall back into that obsession and I continually relive the relationship waking up at three in the morning every day.
Tomorrow morning I begin with 25mg of prescribed lamicital which will escalate over the next few weeks. The psychiatrist explained to me that the obsessive and negative thoughts that I have had for years will subside. When someone gives me good advice it will stick in my subconscious and not be exposed to rumination and require revalidation. I should no longer be held back by my negative thoughts. At the same time I am hoping to retrain my mind to look for someone is a little more sain and better for me. I need to ween myself off the unhealthy drug that she represents.
If this can work for me it would be the second greatest thing that ever happen to me aside from the birth of my daughter.
I am excited but at the same time I am skeptical as I am currently still possessing negative thoughts.
I must give it this chance because I have everything to gain. I have a lot to give.
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Hi ezpz,
Just out of curiosity, was your wife like this last joker?
And also, when you try to take the blame for the breakup on yourself does this mean you tend to excuse her behavior and would like to get back with her?
mud
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Hii EZ,
You're not alone. I've been obsessive in my attachments too in the past...like codependency run amok.
A book that helped me a very great deal was Escape from Intimacy by Anne Wilson Schaf. It's about the confusion of love with obsession and how to unlearn that pattern.
Don't despair, it takes hard work but there are reasons for it, and it really is curable. You've made a great start by seeing your doctor. Will you be doing ongoing talk therapy too?
Keep on posting...that was one good outcome of what you're going through!
Hopalong
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EZ,
You sound like a wonderful man with an amazing daughter. Maybe these relationships can bring about some good. You surely know what you DON'T want in a woman now!!! :?
You must be so hurt by these women. How did that happen with your ex-wife? Did she seem unhappy/mean/distant before she left? What a selfish person to leave behind a young child. She obviously had no regard for anyone else.
So... now that it's time to move on... have you decided what you are going to look for in a relationship? You should make a top ten list of the most important qualities and MAKE SURE slowly that the person fits into what you want and need and deserve in a partner.
I wish you luck. I am sure there is a lovely, kind soul out there waiting for you. NO MORE N's OK?!?
Love, Beth
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Hopalong - thanks for your book suggestion ...I just recevied in the mail the orrignal book you suggested "a fine romance"
My ex-wife became cold and distant at the end...and unfortunately it turned me on. Attraction...These behavior characteristics are what I need to fix in myself. I actually had a major rumination going in my head on the plane ride home from FLA on sunday night. I kept relieving the relationship with the ex-girlfriend blaming myself,analyzing everything that hever happened and at the same time repeatedly saying to myself "EZPZ if you really think that you can change another person without their cooperation than you need help". I am looking for the lamcital to help logic prevail and end the rumination.
I just took my first 25 mg this morning.
I am sort of laying low right now over the next few weeks as I am really looking forward to seeing the changes kick in.
I will make the list of what I am looking for in a partner in the new few weeks.
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ezpz,
Sounds like you are making good progress. Give the AD's time to kick in (sometimes takes a couple of weeks to reach their full potential). I, too, was very obsessive in my thought patterns when my ex left, and can still be about things which bother me (the Ad's helped somewhat, but didn't remove the obsessing altogether). At the time, I had anxiety attacks thinking I could run into him with the gf (which I later learned could never have happened) and would drive around parking lots looking for his car before I would go into the local grocery store or restaurants. It really is a crazy-making time.
In addition to being addicted to "bad girls/boys," you can also be addicted to relationships. There have been some websites and books referenced on this board that discuss that. My therapist always referred to me as "relationship-oriented," but addicted could probably apply. I wanted to find a relationship to help me heal not long after my ex left and even tried a few dates. Fortunately, I was in therapy at the time and with his help, realized that a new relationship was not going to fix my problem in the long term. I forced myself to be alone until I had gotten through the intense therapy I needed to heal. When I was finally healthy and mostly happy, then I was ready to look for someone who was also healthy--not someone I needed to rescue or "fix."
I think making a list of the qualities you're looking for in someone to date is a very good idea, but take your time to heal from this previous relationship before jumping back in.
Brigid
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Make sure you come back and tell us how you are doing!!!!
Love, Beth
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I am up to 50 Mg on the lamictal. The depression went away as soon as I began with 25mg.
I have been experiencing severe anxiety attacks. The doctor says I will feel the effects of the lamictal at 150-175mg. June 1 i reach 100mg and then June 8 i reach 150g.
Yesterday I did the most stupid thing during an anxiety attack. I called her on my cell. I said Hi "name withheld"....please don't hang up. As soon as she knew it was me I heard click and a hangup. Pretty silly of me. She never had any empathy when we were together ..why would I think she would have any now. It just hurts that I have never gotten an apology for any of the things that were said me "your psychotic, your retarded .etc". You cant get any closure.
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Aw, PZ.
You cant get any closure.
Yes, you can. But it does not happen with anyone outside you.
It happens inside you, when you are kind to yourself.
Grief feels like an open wound. But it does heal.
Remember: SHE is not going to heal you. YOU ARE.
Have faith! I have hit bottom so badly after a breakup that the pain took my breath away. For ages.
Now...I look back and see it actually was a gift. It woke me up to the unhealthy, unrealistic ways I fixated on emotionally unavailable and inappropriate partners. In hindsight, after lots of work to heal (reading a lot of books on genuine intimacy and healthy relationships, seeing a therapist)...
I see that last breakup (of a completely unfulfilling relationship) as a gift. That would seem incomprehensible to me at the time, but it is true.
I have faith the same conclusion can come to you. It will be your learning that does it.
Hopalong
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is sending your ex an encompassing article on NPD a means of closure for the abused? Is it a wise thing to do?
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EZ,
I can relate so much to your struggle.
What the goal is, I believe, is NO CONTACT.
I read books with titles like "Don't Call That Man". You could too, actually. You might find it interesting. The whole thing was designed to help someone break the compulsive, addictive, desire for contact with someone with whom the relationship was:
1) Over
2) Toxic
3) Fantasy-based
Meanwhile, I'll tell you that I did send my last Nbf a link on narcissism. Suggested he read up on it and calmly stated that I believed this was what his issue was. He wrote back all defensive, and I just stayed calm, said, sorry you have to dismiss it, best of luck to you... Anyway, as ever, he subtly, manipulatively managed the last word. He posted on his artist's website a meaningless "artist's statement" that explained how his paintings were intended to create empathy. HAH! Bet he'd never thought about that word for 5 seconds in his life, but this was his subtle way of weaseling out of confronting anything...he'd just co-opt it.
So I truly believe there is no satisfaction for you whatsoever in any contact with her under any guise. Even to help her wake up. She won't. She's hardened into who she is, and she's not going to change.
You, meanwhile, WILL get over your feelings of loss and humiliation. You will get your dignity back. You will eventually stop daydreaming about the next time you see her and how you might react. You will eventually NOT CARE what she thinks or does or with whom.
This is really really true, EZ. I swear it on a stack of everything.
In the meantime, NO CONTACT will help you push through it faster. Plus, diversions and support. How about posting here every time you feel the contact urge? We could prop you up until it passes. I know what it's like, like dieting or quitting cigarettes, and a buddy system really does help.
Hops
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is sending your ex an encompassing article on NPD a means of closure for the abused?
In a word, no.
Closure with Ns is not a lightbulb moment, I don't think. It comes about through the slow and rather painful realization that there are truly malevolent, unfeeling creatures walking among us feeding off the more vulnerable and trusting.
It takes time for the poison they inject into us to work its way out. Some day, could be a long time from now, you'll find you feel pity and little else for her. That's probably about as close as you'll get to closure, sorry to say.
mud
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I have so many mixed up feelings and that is the problem
It seems as if NPD and it associated lack of empathy result from the infantile emotional maturity of those people. Just like a four year old may not have empathy for others and is very self centered it seems like those with NPD are behaving along those lines. If they don't get what they want then they lash out at everyone. Bean you are correct as always. I dont wish to be mean or revengeful. I am the adult.
I wanted to marry this girl. I really loved her. But at the same time her emerging behavior scared me so much that I just could not. I could not risk it. Could not go thru the rest of my life being belittled and controlled. I tried to tell her how abusive she was but she could not see it. She told me that I had bamboozled her by pretending that I wanted to be married. I did want the marriage but not under those conditions. I know that my original rejection ( refusal to get married) hurt her deeply. I believe that is what caused her to really turn up the heat as far as the devaluation goes (psycho,retarded naming calling .etc). She thought I was crazy because she did not have the capability to accept responsibiliy. I did not know what NPD was at that time so I thought that she was just a mean person.
I read this review of Malignant Self Love and it contained the following regarding NPD which is amazing to me:
"It can be hurtful to know how he talks about you to others, calls you names and labels you in the most horrible way until you read Dr. Vaknin's work. There you will learn how almost every narcissist does the same thing as if they had a manual to go by. You find a slight sense of peace to see how 'every' narcissist's ex is crazy, psycho, a lunatic in their eyes. If you're the ex, it is very validating and healing"
I really hope this lamictal when it reaches 100 mg will start handling the obsessive thoughts!
EZPZ
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Hope so too, EZ. Relief will come.
About this:
I know that my original rejection ( refusal to get married) hurt her deeply. I believe that is what caused her to really turn up the heat as far as the devaluation goes (psycho,retarded naming calling .etc).
No.
We always have a choice about how to take rejection. It's very painful but it is part of life. We can respond with dignity and distance until we heal. Or, we could attack (name calling, out of control "psycho" behavior?).
She chose the latter, you did not "cause her" to, imo.
Hops (I'm being really blunt tonight--as well as a compulsive poster--hope I don't hurt your feelings)
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Hi Bean,
Here is my plan.
In the past I have alternated two types of behaviors. I would ruin potentially good relationships because I was too over anxious and insecure or I would come under the thumb of a controlling woman who dominated me until I reached the point where I said "I cannot take it anymore!"
I don't want either of these patterns to continue any longer. I am 47 now and I am not getting any younger. I want to engage in a relationship with someone who is caring, positive, supportive, nurturing and intellgent.
I don't want a woman to come along and raise my self-esteem. I want my self-esteem to be in place before I meet the woman. I want to be strong enough so that I may assert myself when needed. I don't want to be in a bad relationship because I am afraid to be alone.
I talked to a therapist for 10 years. I have not made much progress. She and my family have continually given me good advice which I have never followed. I have always been deterred by feelings of insecurity which caused me to make bad decisions.
I am doing something that I have never done before. I am spending time alone and not looking to pursue a relationship until I feel stronger as a person. This is so alien to me. Normally I would look to jump into a new relationship right away to fill that void.
Right now I really want the company of friends or family. Its a little difficult because I don't have family living in this area anymore. They moved south. The only reason I stay is so my daughter can finish high school. It can be a little lonely sometimes. So i am trying to busy myself taking some golf lessons, volunteering in the father's club at school and hopefully line up a tennis game.
My psychiatrist feels I have a slight chemical imbalance which causes worry, anxiety, need for reassurance, rejection sensitivity. All symptoms of a gaba deficiency which is a neurotransmitter in the brain. Gaba is suppose to have a calming effect on your brain by regulating the messages which are sent from the mid-brain to the cortex. These characteristics ultimately make me puddy in the hands of a strong personality. For a person like me to meet a Narcissist is not a good thing and I am still in shock over what happened.
In the book called "listening to Prozac" there is a story of man who is a successful lawyer with two children and a wife. Despite his success he continually had low self-esteem and he never internalized his success despite years of talk therapy. The book talks about how medication enabled the man to lift his self-esteem and internalize his success. I am not a lawyer but I have been successful but I have never internalized it.
No matter what Tom Cruise may think. I believe that if talk therapy requires medication to succeed than I will do whatever is necessary to have a happy life. I need the Lamictal to ramp up more. This Thursday coming up I finish the second week of 50mg and then becoming 100mg for one week, followed by 125 and then 150. The psychiatrist says look for positive results at 150-175 mg. If it does not work I will ask for a SSRI supplement. I wish the lamictal worked faster
In the next relationship I need to refrain from backing down when I feel i am right because of fear of being alone
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ezpz,
I am doing something that I have never done before. I am spending time alone and not looking to pursue a relationship until I feel stronger as a person. This is so alien to me. Normally I would look to jump into a new relationship right away to fill that void.
GREAT decision :D. I can soooooooo relate to this. If one relationship ended, I would feel compelled and desperate to get into a new one. And I would grab the next man that came along--not caring if he was actually a good match for me, or even a good person--just wanting him to stay. That way I didn't feel worthless. If not for my therapist, I would probably have done it again. But I didn't, and forced myself to be alone until I was healthy enough and had the proper tools to objectively evaluate the men I was meeting.
Once I got there and started dating again, all those previous feelings of desperation and neediness were gone. I was able to take my time, move on from anyone who didn't feel right, and be totally OK with time I spent alone.
EZ, keep doing what you are doing, and you'll be fine. You'll know when the time is right to take a step back into the dating world. Your eyes and ears will be wide open and you'll know when you have found the right person.
Hugs,
Brigid
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when you reach the therapeutic blood level that's right for you, it'll be like someone threw a switch in your brain, and all the lights and colors will come back on.
Hi Stormchild,
I was just wondering how different the average person feels when the lamictal takes effect. Will I feel more relaxed or more confident or require less reassurance?
I am having a very anxious day.
EZPZ