Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Hopalong on April 28, 2006, 09:36:23 AM
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some thoughts to respond to, pick any--
What are the signs of a young narcissist?
At what point are the damaging experiences hardening into Nism? What are the "tells"?
Any other thoughts on how to recognize a young N?
Any thoughts on how to help a young person away from being N if it looks imminent?
How to tell the difference between ordinary adolescent selfishness and Nism?
Childhood Nism--does it exist? Is adolescence a key benchmark?
When is hope gone for Ns? In their 20s? 30s?
Hops
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Hiya Hops
this one got me stumped. Don't think I can do this! I thought.....I can't come at this from this angle...I need a person, an image, a description...okay there's a chapter in Why is it always about you? about teenage N - healthy & otherwise. Might get it to 'read inside' from amazon (try searching Hotchkiss and adolescence ?)
For me and you, these questions... I'd say: whole person first, relationships, work, school/college etc - holistic stuff - then start looking for behaviour and thinking and think to myself how's their overall 'mental health' what 'triggers' have they got; where's their empathy, are their views of themselves realistic, views of others accurate? etc
I wouldn't think of N for any particular reason and I don't think it's genetic btw by any stretch of the imagination. The vast majority of disorders just ain't genetic at all (I've been reading again, very dangerous! :D). Seriously...there are also a lot worse things. Sociopaths etc. Some Ns give the world much pleasure! Actors musicians etc. Gosh a vote for Ns!!!!! :D :shock: :D
I've spent way too much time here today. It's got to my logic circuits. Have a great weekend Hops!
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Well unfortunately I had noticed that my 6 year old nephew is showing signs of becoming an N. If you have read my long long story of what my sister-in-law did to my family well this is her son. Before the latest incident I had let my children go spend the day at her house. My 2 year old daughter fell down their stairs... hardwood floor stairs. My 2 boys (ages 4 and 7) were upset about it. And told me what happened with a lot of emotions and then they told me that Logan laughed. He laughed. That's not a 'normal' reaction. I feel wholeheartedly that this child doesn't even have a chance. And I KNOW that it wasn't passed on genetically from them anyways. He's adopted. But he does act a lot like his Mom (adoptive). And he spends most of his time with his N Mom and N Grandmother. TG he has a more normal Dad and Grandfather. But I wonder if it's too late for him. We won't be around his Mom anymore that is a sure thing. I wonder if I should allow my children to be around this child. He does hit them. And I've wondered if he might really hurt them. I don't worry as much when my 7 year old is with his younger sibblings because he protects them from their cousin. Is it wrong to keep them away from the cousin?
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Hi Guys Wouldn't a person have to be a least 21 to 25 before a label such as narcissist be considered. I mean really a N is
not going for treatment .I see the real evidence for a N IS THE PEOPLE AROUND THAT PERSON AND HOW THEY ARE EFFECTED.For any one under 30 even I would say its hard too tell.
Moon
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Hi Storm and All I just so want to believe kids can not be so empty .But I do not know about this Asperger thing .The difference between a N and Aspergers is lack of empathy .So I will read about it.I have been listening
and learning from everyone here on the board.
Lots of Love
Moonlight
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Children are, by nature, narcissistic. They do not have the life experience to determine the "other". There are specific developmental stages relating to "normal" ages at which children understand the concept of other's needs, consience, etc. I am not a developmental psychologist, but I have read a little, as a parent and a teacher. I think that early on, children see themselves as the center of the universe. Little by little they learn that this is not true. In adolescence, (the second toddlerhood!!) most people are becoming who they will be in terms of who they present to the world (don't go by how they are with parents!!!). However, I think the person with a narcissitic personality disorder, or at least the one I know currently giving me such crap....has an arrested adolescence! They never get beyond that. They function well enough to pass for normal, so "intervention" is impossible to determine a need for, but their lack of consience, or ability to empathize is frozen in the MEMEME track of the young child/adolescent.
I am sure there is a lot out there about this.
Listen, I see kids who act just horribly toward others as kindergarteners, who by 4th grade are just wonderful people. Then again, I see some who are never going to change, because the parents are NEVER going to let them know when they are wrong. "A**holes in training", I call them. Parental values that simply don't include being a good person. Denial as a parent creates some pretty bad behaving people. Then again, I've seen GREAT parenting...all to no avail, with a whacked out kid... but it's more the former than the latter, IMO..
There just doesn't seem to be a one size fits all answer in this life, is there???
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I see your point, Stormy.
I will try to relate this to my profession, if you don't mind the analogy. There are children who are innately talented in the arts. I have seen children who blow my mind with how they already percieve the world with such pure and unbelievably advanced concepts and skills. This is referred to as "talent" (a word I sometimes choke on). But I have also seen other children, given the right encouragement and instruction and environment, "find" their "talent" and ability in art and become such amazing artists, and it didn't "come in the original package". Ironically, or maybe NOT so ironically, I see some amazingly gifted artists who have autism, asperger's, learning disabilities, etc., in other areas. (God, I love my job!!!!! but I digress....)
So, I think it's possible, for those children who don't have the "look" of a kind hearted person, to change and grow and become a caring person, given the right situation....and maybe even the predisposition or genetic makeup for it, however well disguised at first.
And have I seen children who scare me? Who I would really NOT want to know when they are older, or have access to a handgun or a car? YES!!! But EVEN so, (and I have a kid right there in my mind now....from class today) I cannot honestly say that I don't believe this kid has a chance to change and find joy instead of misery in his little life. He still might. WE certainly want him to (while we watchfully protect the other children!!). But he is moving. Just when we saw a little softness. Oh well.
Interesting talk. Thanks
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mum
However, I think the person with a narcissitic personality disorder, or at least the one I know currently giving me such crap....has an arrested adolescence! They never get beyond that. They function well enough to pass for normal, so "intervention" is impossible to determine a need for, but their lack of consience, or ability to empathize is frozen in the MEMEME track of the young child/adolescent.
This is Jodi exactly. She is stuck in adolescence, although occasionally she will go right into teenage years. She loves taking people teenagers into her home so she can play "mini-me" with them, if you get my drift...takes them for a "girly day" so they can have excactly what she has. She did this with me...took me to buy fake nails and then did my hair, etc. She even tried to get one lady's daughter to call the courts to emancipate her from her own mother! It's insane and it's sad. I loved who I thought Jodi was and to be honest, I still do and I sometimes wish she really was who she portrayed herself to be...if she was, she would be my best friend to this very day.
~ReallyME
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I understand what some of you mean by that children go thru stages. I kind of expect a 2 year old to hit, bite and pinch. All my children did that and well 1 is still in that stage. I have a lot of people who try to tell me how to parent and that I should be extra hard on the 2 year old for that kind of behavior. I don't see the point in that. I mostly talk to her as I did my boys at that age. I tell her 'no no'. And I know that she will eventually stop. My 4 year old doesn't hit or bite. And my 7 year old has few behavioral problems at school. That's why I'm concerned about the 6 year old cousin. The N mother and N grandmother have him most of the time and they don't 'see' anything he does as being bad. They have spoiled him completely. It isn't his fault and I do feel sorry for him. This is what happens when children aren't held accountable for the bad things they do. And I don't think we can classify him as an N yet. But it's coming. It is abnormal for a 6 year old to hit all the time. Especially children much younger and smaller. It is abnormal for a 6 year old to lack empathy. My 7 year old boy has trouble crushing a bug because he feels sorry for it. None of my children are cruel to animals. And the only times my boys hit and fight are among the 3 siblings. Except for my 7 year old never never hits my 2 year old. It is very normal for siblings to fight sometimes.
But I disagree that children can't ever be considered to be N's. Most psychopaths (if not all of them) exhibit very cruel behaviors at an early age. Cruelty to animals and to other kids is some of the earliest signs of a psychopath. I've watched 'Iceman' interviews where he talks about being a kid and he was pretty much a psychopath at the age of 10 or 11. He would take cats and throw them into an incinerator just because he was bored. He felt nothing. He WAS a psychopath. So my thoughts are that if you can be a psychopath at 10 years old than you can probably be a Narcissist too. They're both personality disorders.
yes, they start young. They have to, because their personalities are so stunted and infantilized that they must have been arrested at a very early stage in their development.
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Good point, Stormchild.
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Sugarre -
After reading your post I'd like to add my point of view here. Asperger's disorder is the opposite of npd. Asperger's shy away from attention and in contrast to npders do have a self. They will not be out to hurt people, in fact are very lovable.
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Wow. thanks for all these deeply thoughtful replies.
Very, very interesting.
I think what was behind my post was a bit of a shadow worry about whether my D might be N. She's being AWFULLY "entitled." Then again, she always had a very compassionate heart for the underdog. Her cruelest behavior is, at times, toward me. But that may be her delayed maturation...the rough time she went through when her dad died. Things like that.
Part of it is that my N (unquestionably N) mother helped raise her so had a huge influence. My D says she "loathes narcissism", which was good to hear. And I know some of her entitlement (feeling entitled to too much of my money, for example) is because I gave too much. She's also a total animal lover (but then, so was Hitler).
I'm not saying my D is Hitler! :shock: Just observing that sentimental attachment toward animals doesn't guarantee consistently kind character toward human beings.
Anyway, I basically believe her core self does have empathy (she always chose the loneliest kids to be her friend, volunteered at a camp for burned children, is kind and gentle with the elderly, etc.) I think I need firmer boundaries with her sometimes, and to let her be independent financially, because my wallet's drained.
But I don't think she's really "an N." I think she has Nspots (as I do too).
Thanks for all the amazing input. I think the questions still hang, but it's good to think about.
Hops (a treat to be away a few days and come back to such a busy board...even though I'll never catch up reponding! :shock:)
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hey, hops! I think a good rule of thumb as to how our children really are, is this question: How are they outside of our relationship with them? Because a kid is never going to really spend the rest of their lives living with mom or dad, and parent/child dynamics are sooooo different than how they are in the "real world".
As a teacher, I have parents marvel at the wonderful things I say about thier kid.....it's like they suspected the kid is ok, but he runs them ragged at home.... I also hear such amazing things about my own children, being helpful, working extra for others.....and they won't lift a finger at home unless I freak out, it seems!!!
I'd never let how my daughter treats me be an indicator of how she will relate to others! (not that I let her boundary smash all day long, either).
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Hops: My D says she "loathes narcissism", which was good to hear. And I know some of her entitlement (feeling entitled to too much of my money, for example) is because I gave too much. She's also a total animal lover (but then, so was Hitler).
My daughter has N spots too, with the entitlement stuff. Glad your daughter said she LOATHED N'ism, cause mine, when I tested her with the online test, said "SO?" when her results showed N
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Hopalong, it does sound like your daughter is not an N. But you figured that out for yourself. Compassion is a good sign she's not. She may be a little spoiled, but I'm not judging because my kids are spoiled too. She'll probably grow out of that hormone enraged teenage state of mind and be a fine human being like you.
ReallyMe, there's a good chance your D isn't an N either. Kids are so filled with emotions and confusion at times that sometimes they like to dabble in the darker ways of thinking. And they are often times selfish. I went through that too. On the outside I was a raging lunatic teen but on the inside I was very hurt. Sometimes people put a wall up to protect how vulnerable they really are and young girls are experts at this. Along about the time I was 18 I started 'seeing' myself for the first time. I saw that everyone else thought I was mean and angry all the time. When what I felt was depression and pain. My Biological Dad left us years ago and there was a lot of hurt there. There was a lot more factors to consider too but I don't want to bore you. Where is that Online test at?
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http://www.4degreez.com/misc/personality_disorder_test.mv <---for Marissa or whomever wants it
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Thanks Mum, Really, Marissa...(and y'all above...Bean, Storm, Aspau, Mum, Teartracks)
She's 25, so post-adolescent. (But she's always been "young for her years.") She has been BEYOND cranky with me at times, but it's interesting, when I gave her her graduation trip it did seem to open her mind up. And since she got back, she's told me she thinks she's very very irritable. Owning her behavior instead of making it be about me. And other people do say extremely positive things to me about her.
She unloaded on me by email recently and said some mean things, and for once I wrote back and told her exactly how it made me feel. And by the time I saw her again she was much more considerate. (At one point I thought uh-oh, this is just N-niceness because she can tell I'm fed up...you know, the N turns on the niceness when supply is threatened?) But I think that was paranoia.
I think/hope (let it not be toxic hope!), on balance, it's not Nism. Just her persona for now. Her father's death really knocked her for a loop, and she was despairing and raging for a loooong time. I thnk she's trying to turn a corner and build a new chapter in her life. So I'm going to have more faith in her. It IS easy to see N-ism behind every tree.
Marisa, you've got her, I think. Dark paths, because of intense pain and rage. I think she's just starting to see more light. (And I'm starting to see the end of spoiling her, because helping her TOO much has enabled it to drag on too long. Being away across the ocean, she also acknowleged for the first time that she needs to get some therapy. Hallelujah!)
Thanks.
Hops
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Thanks ReallyMe.
I took the test myself. I scored low in most things but scored moderate on avoidant personality. I'm really not that an avoidant person though. I think I like to avoid social situations because of what my in-laws have put me through.
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I took that test too a long time back when you first posted the link, Reallly.
It depressed the crap out of me to score a big red bar of "N".
I want to take it to my T and ask him what's up.
I pretty much think I'm not a serious N, though I do have Nspots.
So that test made me sad and scared.
Hops
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Hops.. oops I didn't know she was grown. But like you said some people are a little slow about maturing. I can see why you would have difficulty in figuring her out. She may have N-spots like you.
I feel like I'm the opposite of an N. In a way. The things that are important to them just aren't important to me. I could care less what people think of me. I am always polite and kind to others but if they don't like me then that is their problem. My parents were that way too. We learned a lot of humility and selflessness from them. I am far far far from being perfect but I know exactly what is wrong with me and what I need to change. Which is also a trait N's don't have. It has been exceptionally hard for me to understand my in-laws coming from a family so very different from them.
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Here's another Personality Disorder Test I took. And these are my results ..the first number is mine and the second is the average score. All the notes below are not mine but what was said after I took the test. I thought some of you might enjoy taking this one too.
http://similarminds.com/cgi-bin/newpd.pl
Paranoid |||||||||||||| 54% 49%
Schizoid |||||||||||||||| 66% 53%
Schizotypal |||||||||||||||| 62% 53%
Antisocial |||||||||||| 42% 47%
Borderline |||||||||||| 50% 47%
Histrionic |||||| 26% 43%
Narcissistic |||||||||| 38% 41%
Avoidant |||||||||| 34% 39%
Dependent |||||||||||| 46% 37%
Obsessive-Compulsive |||||||||| 34% 40%
*scores in gray are the average web score
Accuracy: - 5 high 4 3 2 1 low
Test Note: Read the descriptions below to avoid misinterpreting test results (for example, the Antisocial classification does not mean you are a loner, it means you tend to be insensitive towards others).
General Note: the validity and reliability of DSM personality disorders are still lacking in strong statistical evidence and clear agreement in the scientific and medical community. They are determined by the American Psychiatric Association and will likely be revised in the future.
Author Note:I don't think Schizoid personality is a valid disorder (read), some of the smartest people in history were schizoid because they occupied a remote end of the intelligence bell curve. Schizotypal personality can encompass highly original thinkers as well as totally insane people so I think it's a flawed type. I think the remaining eight disorders are generally valid.
Disorder Info
Eccentric Personality Disorders: Paranoid, Schizoid, Schizotypal
Individuals with these disorders often appear odd or peculiar.
Paranoid Personality Disorder - individual generally tends to interpret the actions of others as threatening.
Schizoid Personality Disorder - individual generally detached from social relationships, and shows a narrow range of emotional expression in various social settings.
Schizotypal Personality Disorder - individual is uncomfortable in close relationships, has thought or perceptual distortions, and peculiarities of behavior.
Dramatic Personality Disorders: Antisocial, Borderline, Histrionic, and Narcissistic
Individuals with these disorders have intense, unstable emotions, distorted self-perception, and/or behavioral impulsiveness.
Antisocial Personality Disorder - individual shows a pervasive disregard for, and violation of, the rights of others.
Borderline Personality Disorder - individual shows a generalized pattern of instability in interpersonal relationships, self-image, and observable emotions, and significant impulsiveness.
Histrionic Personality Disorder - individual often displays excessive emotionality and attention seeking in various contexts. They tend to overreact to other people, and are often perceived as shallow and self-centered.
Narcissistic Personality Disorder - individual has a grandiose view of themselves, a need for admiration, and a lack of empathy that begins by early adulthood and is present in various situations. These individuals are very demanding in their relationships.
Anxious Personality Disorders: Avoidant, Dependent, Obsessive-Compulsive
Individuals with these disorders often appear anxious or fearful.
Avoidant Personality Disorder - individual is socially inhibited, feels inadequate, and is oversensitive to criticism
Dependent Personality Disorder - individual shows an extreme need to be taken care of that leads to fears of separation, and passive and clinging behavior.
Obsessive-Compulsive Personality Disorder - individual is preoccupied with orderliness, perfectionism, and control at the expense of flexibility, openness, and efficiency.
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Marissa
Knowing what I do about that test on PD, and as often as I've used it with people, I can tell you that if you came out with a moderate score in avoidant, you are right...you aren't very avoidant. If you scored HIGH or VERY HIGH, then you would strongly exhibit that trait.
Thanks for sharing your results.
~ReallyME
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Thanks ReallyMe that does make me feel better about it.
Storm.. let me find the address for you.
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Storm.. try doing a searchsimilarminds.com
See if that works for you :D
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Wow... I went away for the weekend and there are a million wonderful posts to read!!
As a teenager, I was terrible Narcissistic. I think I copied a lot of my parents' behaviors. But at some point, I realized I was not acting in a way that felt right to me. I decided to stop lying, be kind to everyone and to learn to listen to other people. I don't know how or why I decided to do this, but I thank God that I did. When I look back at the way I acted before I made that change, I cringe. I am still embarrassed when I come accross people who knew me then.
There are so many good points on this thread. I am trying to accosiate what has been offered and see how it fits...
One thing I know is that if anything bad happened, my mother used it for her own purposes. When we got sick, we were taken to the doctor (and way too much... I can hardly bring myself to go to the Doc once a year now) where we "were the only person he had ever seen..." fill in the blank.... We never had a normal illness. It had to be something outrageous. If it was normal, it was built upon to be something huge. My mother cries when people die, but it is without emotion. It is more of a, "Can't you see how bad I feel." thing. And then she goes on. She did get very depressed when her mother and some other family members died all in one year. But it's weird, I have never seen her revisit those emotions past the initial phase. It's like it's done and over with and that's that.
At any rate, I think you all are right that the most important thing is that Ns lack empathy. I would assume that this would be evident even in young children, but I am no expert :)
Thanks all!
Love, Beth
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One thing I know is that if anything bad happened, my mother used it for her own purposes. When we got sick, we were taken to the doctor (and way too much... I can hardly bring myself to go to the Doc once a year now) where we "were the only person he had ever seen..." fill in the blank.... We never had a normal illness. It had to be something outrageous. If it was normal, it was built upon to be something huge.
This sounds like Munchaussen Syndrome by Proxy to me. So sorry you were put through that. I once read a library book on that. It's so horrid and sad for children going through that.
My mother cries when people die, but it is without emotion. It is more of a, "Can't you see how bad I feel." thing. And then she goes on. She did get very depressed when her mother and some other family members died all in one year. But it's weird, I have never seen her revisit those emotions past the initial phase. It's like it's done and over with and that's that.
At any rate, I think you all are right that the most important thing is that Ns lack empathy. I would assume that this would be evident even in young children, but I am no expert
I saw this with N, Jodi. While I was visiting her, one of her dear friends died...just a young girl that Jodi apparently knew rather well.
Well, her husband was on the phone and said "oh my God" and Jodi grabbed the phone and didn't shed a tear, but just kept saying "I just can't believe it." I can remember sitting there, wanting to go over and hold Jodi or hug her or something. When I told her "Jodi, I feel like I want to comfort you, hug you or something," she said, "you can go ahead, but just know that it really wont do anything." I remember feeling stunned, shocked, bewildered, sad, helpless, frustrated.
It's true...once an N experiences emotions, it's like they just erase them after that. Jodi did that right before my eyes many times. It feels very FREAKY when they do that! She definitely did lack empathy. She could slice and dice people with a stern frown on her face or even while laughin and mocking them. Behavior that is so unfeeling just really is not normal nor healthy. I have empathy toward people, so it just really blew my mind! I do know that Jodi told me she really doesn't grieve the way other people do. I saw that as she lost about 6 people in the same year and really never was affected deeply by any of the deaths.
~RM
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Hey Laura,
Yes, it was definitely a bit of M by P, but not severely. According to my mother, my sister has had Lyme's disease, TSS, severe pnemonia, advanced bronchitis and others. Like I said, she dragged us into the hospital for everything. She had my urethra expanded (no joke), I had tubes in my ears, oral surgery, tonsils removed, protein in my urine and on and on. And every time we had one of these illnesses, it was the worst the doctor had ever seen. Somehow I doubt that... she hears what she wants to hear. I also had my teeth straightened. Granted, they were a mess, but according to her, they are the worst teeth the orthodontist had ever seen. My son has an appliance now, and she acts like it is the most distressing thing in the world. He is 7 and I told him he looks like Darth Vader and we get the giggles anytime someone stares at him. Nothing can ever be a simple problem...
Now I am faced with about 9 months apart from my husband. It has been a hard time for the whole family getting ready for it. It has been such an emotional rollercoaster. Of course, she "understands so well," because she had to be apart from my dad... ONCE FOR SIX WEEKS...
Anyhoo, I need to stop today and do some more thinking and listening as I am losing my serenity :)
Love, Beth
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Beth Yes, it was definitely a bit of M by P, but not severely.
According to my mother, my sister has had Lyme's disease, TSS, severe pnemonia, advanced bronchitis and others. Like I said, she dragged us into the hospital for everything. She had my urethra expanded (no joke), I had tubes in my ears, oral surgery, tonsils removed, protein in my urine and on and on. And every time we had one of these illnesses, it was the worst the doctor had ever seen.
Sounds severe enough for me. How awful. My heart goes out to you. I pray that your "mother" gets or got help and therapy to be able to really SEE HERSELF.
~RM
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How are they outside of our relationship with them? Because a kid is never going to really spend the rest of their lives living with mom or dad, and parent/child dynamics are sooooo different than how they are in the "real world".
(((Mum))), who knows this better than you? I hope you are doing well. I don't see you around much these days. Think of you and sending you light too. Love, Marta
Once, when taking my daughter to the mall for yet more shopping, she told me I had embarrassed her. I had worn sweats (most people did then) but the sweats were not the problem. Both the tops and the bottoms were purple. The problem was they didn't match. I thought then that my baby was growing up and I was becoming dowdy
You certainly know your daughter a lot better than I would. Still, if I were to hazard a guess, I would say you are spot on. I just remember that you said your mother was competent and because you rejejcted your mother in a way, you rejected her gift of competence. That made me feel really sad, because I have done similar things in my life too. Then of course, if your daughter is anything like me, there is also another possibility. May be the thermostat in the room hit the roof, and she bolted screaming Jpesre. A bit of both -- that's how she could ever let herself say something like that in the first place. Wasn't it you who said that kids throw tantrums only with those whom they trust the most?
Later on, in her last year of high school, she told me her friends AND their mothers could not believe I was her mother when they met me. OOOMPH, right in the stomach.
I think she sometimes blurts out what she does not mean. Did you ever get the feeling though that she did not appreciate you? Because if you did, then you should tell her to straighten up her act.
Anyway, that is what I think about your daughter, from what I know of her. As for you, I am sure that you make a wonderful mother. I am sure that you have been like a maple tree to her, and I can't see how your daughter can ever outgrow you.
Lots of love, Marta