Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Portia on May 06, 2006, 10:42:04 AM
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I’m a fan of good manners. Here they can overridden by emotion and in thre grand scheme of things, if good manners go by the wayside but better understanding follows, fair enough. Apologies can come later.
Basic good manners to me would include – showing respect, consideration, kindness – and some everyday politeness: acknowledging people who respond to you by their name, thanking people for their help (if they help) etc. Saying ‘please’ and ‘thank you’ goes such a long way with me.
I also like it when people don’t fool around with the board. But then I can tend to be controlling I think. A tidier-upper. I don’t like it when I think people might be amusing themselves by playing games here. Of course they probably need help for that compulsion, but I doubt this is the place to get that help.
How about you? What do you consider good board manners, or what annoys you in terms of bad manners? (If you want to cite my bad manners, please go ahead. Seriously :D)
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hey presto! - someone jumps in and picks an incredibly minor point
I was counselling a man accused of molesting his daughters about 14 years ago, it wasn't an in depth session but suddenly he said 'my brothers molested me you know'.
My response 'how many brothers do you have?' I guess showed patently my discomfort and unwillingness to get into that at that point
( and I saw a similar statement in a textbook for doctors years later, about dealing with difficult disclosures.
Maybe people stop something which is painful to them, even painful in they feel left out.
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Hi Portia,
Is it bad manners for me, to post opposing views with supporting evidence if I am satisfied with the opinions I already hold?
I think this may come under the manners topic.
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You agree, through your use of this forum, that you will not post any material which is false, defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, adult material, or otherwise in violation of any International or United States Federal law.
Not sure if this applies, but here's the agreement we all made when we signed up to post here.
penelope
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At what point does someone else's right to avoid their pain...outweigh my right to face my pain and do the difficult work of recovery
well if you go to a psychiatrist or therapist and they act out or deny you your recovery that is unprofessional and very wrong.
In a coordinated recovery support group even though people-dynamics might intervene a good leader can probably give each person their opportunity to express themselves and be heard.
But an open forum like this board- I think it's unavoidable that sometimes people feel cut off or misunderstood.
For me the important thing is to try and be kind, even if other communication breaks down.
That's how I've handled the broken relationships in my real life and it seems to work out eventually.
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Stormchild,
Wow, you expressed this perfectly and most eloquent. I have completely felt that was my life.
Thank you for sharing.
I spent my entire life being kind to everyone else. Because I was raised by abusers, and trained in such a way that my kindness simply attracted more of them, I have few recollections of anyone being significantly and reliably kind to me in return. I do recall being exhausted and 'tapped out' emotionally, time after time, and scorned at such times by my closest associates - I now realize this was because they regarded me as a source of something for them, only, and they were displeased that 'the well was dry'.
After a lot of thought, I've given myself permission to give me what these people would not, or could not. I understand kindness, and I know how to be kind; so if others cannot do this for me, I will do it for myself.
The first kindness I have chosen to extend to myself is the expectation of reciprocity. I think, if you have that as the foundation, all others follow.
This is wonderful, I'm so happy for you. seasons
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the expectation of reciprocity
yes, it's a wonderful word and a wonderful thing- the best friendships are reciprocal.
I have been very lucky in that what I've put out into the world I've gotten back- though not always from the people I was initially kind to.
I think any relationship which starts to feel like a well draining dry, means you need to be kinder to yourself. Saying that it's taken me years to understand taking care of myself, even the basics.
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Treating others (in real life or on the internet), as you yourself would want to be treated. xx
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Thank you for all your replies so far. I'm appreciating them all.
Two things in particular: (and I know I'm not naming everyone who's replied by name - is that rude? - but I think you all know that this is most definitely a 'free' thread - take it where it goes, have conversations, go as you will...)
:anyway!
Storm, you really got me thinking. Do I do that, put in a tangent thought post to divert from the crucial issue? (if I do, I don't see it so telling me would help, as you know); and - it occured to me, it has happened to me and instead of seeing it as you have perhaps, I have thought - oops tangent 'stop' post in the way, I must be doing something wrong, I'm being 'told off' - so I've taken it as being a hit on me! haha. Of course where I have perceived that happening.....nobody else might agree. But I do see your point and I feel somewhat less alone with that particular perception. Hey, I don't know very much about people in general, I'm learning here, it all helps.
Guest in May, glad to see you
Is it bad manners for me, to post opposing views with supporting evidence if I am satisfied with the opinions I already hold?
Wow that's a well-thought out question. I mean it. Complex. 8)
Okay: if you're satisfied with the opinions you hold, that's fine yes? So, you could post views that oppose your opinion and you could supply evidence to support those opposing views?
Sure you could. :D Why not? To me it sounds like being devil's advocate to yourself, testing your own opinions to see if you agree with yourself! Not as silly as it might sound. Half the time I'm testing my own views....and sometimes I change them, usually based on new evidence, but sometimes because my view has changed, my internal landscape has changed (while the evidence remains the same). Make sense?
I love changing my mind! Literally. It's possible. We can over-write those old routed programs, we can get into the DOS and fiddle around with the commands! Only a tiny % are so neurally damaged that that isn't possible. Apparently.
Anyway, nope, I don't see that as bad manners. Not at all. Testing is a good scientific method 8)
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Just for the record, I have not stalked you and I have every right to expose your toxic behavior if I choose to have a voice in doing so
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To me, good board manners would include NOT constantly trying to force one's personal view on all of the other members of a group with comments ad nauseum about the same issue, over and over and over... like if you got sick once eating fettucini alfredo and no matter what the topic at hand, it makes you think of saucy pasta, and you just feel compelled to share with the world the fact that the stuff is evil, sickening, and nasty.... well, I just wonder.... how many people would have to be dragged through the fettucini before the whole thing could be put to rest?? If one person agreed that f.a. is the food from hell, would it stop? Five people in agreement?? Ten, perhaps??? Or must the entire universe pledge to never so much as look up f.a. again??? *sigh*
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LOL! You have a wonderful sense of humor Certain Hope.
penelope
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Frankly,
I'm getting fed up w/ all of the fettucini alfredo. Enough is enough. This board used to be a nice place, but it seems like EVERY thread I go to has someone ripping it up and putting others down.
Do I have to post on EVERY thread and say ENOUGH!!! Stick to the topic and stop sligging the cr@p.
Movinon
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probably wouldn't matter if you did either way.
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Since this board has to do with our relationships with Ns in our lives, I think the subject matter of our posts should deal with that aspect of our lives and how we deal with it. These posts should be here to help us and others with the same background. I believe our posts should be confined to our experiences with NPD, how we are dealing with it and how to help others. Other conversations about other issues, and especially personal issues, should be confined to the private arena.
That's my two cents...
Thanks for being here everyone.
Beth
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Hi Beth,
Respectfully, I would hate for the whole board to get all cramped up over what it's okay to talk about.
IMO, almost any subject is okay. Rambling around topics in a relaxed way is one delightful feature of the safety I feel here.
What matters to me is the tone of the board, which is almost always friendliness, benevolent intention, true listening and supportiveness, and mutual respect. There are exceptions, but they usually smooth away after a little effort.
Disrespect and contemptuous tone and dogmatic insistence on one's own view are what sink communication, imho, not the subject matter.
I do want to talk about N issues but I think there are many branches and side-currents to N issues that may seem unrelated...and I'd hate to lose the spontaneous trust I feel to just sit down and type about my life, or respond to someone else's.
Loving intent and self-control of anger ... when those are in place, I think whoever's posting is okay. And it's important to remember, I think, that the only posts we can control are our own. (Richard also takes responsibility as moderator for protecting the board, so there is a safety valve in him.)
Other than that, I think the best response to hostility or serious aggression is no response. I think the action of not responding is more effective than more words about it. That's just my take on it...best I can do.
Hops
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I do agree, Bean. Thanks for the word sensitivity.
People is a much better term than "plank"!
:)
Thanks,
Hops
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One thing that bugs me is when posts get deleted to which I have replied, leaving my post there....hanging....sort of.....confusing to the rest of the thread, like I was hallucinating when I posted or something. :shock:
However, I do understand that the option is there for all and so I could just remove my lonely, little post and all would be well again. :D
But something stops me from doing that. :? It's like trying to make reality disappear by clicking my mouse a few times. It doesn't go away. It did really happen and I leave the posts there.....as a reminder to me that I wasn't hallucinating but responding to a post.......that is now gone. Someone else made their reality disappear. Not mine.
And I don't care how it makes me look to leave those posts of mine there but it does bug me, when I first see the original is gone.
My stuff. Oh well. Not a biggie so I guess I'll live.
:D Sela
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Sela,
I hope it wasn't I who left your post hanging. I was asked to remove my posts from the board, so I did. I believe in following rules. I didn't mean to leave you hanging at all. I just wanted to stop "the Insanity" and start again
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Sela,
One thing that bugs me is when posts get deleted to which I have replied, leaving my post there....hanging....sort of.....confusing to the rest of the thread, like I was hallucinating when I posted or something.
I totally agree with this. I have felt a little crazed lately thinking--what the heck happened to that whole discussion. I think it's fine if someone wants to lock their thread to stop a discussion, if it is proving to become abusive or unproductive, but I do have a problem with the whole discussion being erased as if it never happened.
Brigid
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Sela, Brigid,
I'm not sure if you saw my other post. I was asked to delete all my past posts that everyone was having issue with, so I did. I didn't delete them, intending to "erase time"...I HATE that too, personally....One of the things Jodi said to me at one time was, "I can just erase the time at the cabin with you, as though it never happened...I really can, Laura" I remember that creepy feeling I had when she said that and I realized she was not kidding.
Laura
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Hi Laura,
just to clarify, did you delete the whole thread 'Ns on this board'?
I know it's possible for us to delete our own threads now (it didn't used to be).
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Portia,
I went back and deleted everything that said ReallyME, including the threads I started, as Dr G asked me to.
L
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Thanks Laura, understood :)
(Sela - that's how your posts and others get deleted, by the thread 'owner' deleting the whole thing - different from how it used to be)
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Hi P:
Thanks for the explanation. Yes, it is different than from before and I totally get why Dr. G would ask for certain threads/posts to be deleted. People may also have their own reasons for deleting posts, which I respect and accept. I do understand all of that.
As I said, it's my stuff. It comes down to my posts that are left there and what to do. I could delete them too but something inside me says I cannot delete history. It's no big deal. It's just the way my brain works.
I guess it becomes a bigger deal when people post rude, mean, insulting or taunting posts and I reply to them and they get deleted. Then it looks like no rude, mean, insulting or taunting post was ever made and like I've lost my noodle. I don't care if I look like I've flipped my lid but the way the insentive for my post just disappears.....does bug me. The person doing the rude, mean, insulting or taunting posting kinda gets away with it.
There probably isn't an easy way to avoid this so I should just quit whinning and find something else to do.
:D Sela
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Hiya Sela, I've been mean, rude and insulting in my time here and I haven't got away with it...not because of deleted posts or anything to do with the board...but because of my great big fat conscience and tendency to feel guilt for as long as it takes. But that's not such a bad thing! Good guilt is a necessary regulator eh? So maybe they don't get away with it. Maybe they feel guilt, or maybe they feel shame or maybe if they're like the people who drive us to find this place...they're so ...empty that feeling anything really positive (like true guilt or real sadness) would be a bonus. ?
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Hi P:
Ya. Maybe. Or maybe they get what they want.....the opportunity to hurt and not have any proof visible.
Abusers tend to lean in that direction, don't you think?
Anyway, you're positive spin on it is worth keeping in mind. Thanks P.
Sela
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Insert Quote
Sela,
Quote
One thing that bugs me is when posts get deleted to which I have replied, leaving my post there....hanging....sort of.....confusing to the rest of the thread, like I was hallucinating when I posted or something.
I totally agree with this. I have felt a little crazed lately thinking--what the heck happened to that whole discussion. I think it's fine if someone wants to lock their thread to stop a discussion, if it is proving to become abusive or unproductive, but I do have a problem with the whole discussion being erased as if it never happened.
Brigid
Hi Brigid,
I am with you all the way in your post. I really thought that LB's post should have been responded too, instead of being deleted. By whoever who wanted to respond to it, of course.
Marta
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Hi just a quick point about delete versus lock threads etc. If you post a thread, it's your decision whether you want to lock it or delete it or whatever. Only the original poster has that option (along with Dr G I suppose). i checked this out because I got freaked by threads disappearing a while back. i thought I was going bananas. But no (for once I wasn't), it's just a feature of this board it seems, and we all have the option to do it. You can check it by looking at one of your own threads, the options are bottom-left-hand-side. Hope that explains.
PS Is it right or wrong? i dunno. It's just a feature of the software.
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Portia,
Yes, I understand that the program allows for the poster to delete or lock their own threads, I just don't necessarily agree with it (the locking part is OK, but deleting--I'm not sure). What is written here becomes a part of the history of what has taken place here. I think there is benefit to looking back on discussions--no matter how delicate or potentially disruptive they may have been at the time.
If it's true that Dr. G asked that those posts be deleted in their entirety, I guess he has his reasons and I am not in a position to debate that, but I'm not sure that I understand the benefit.
Like Sela, I guess this is my problem, and I need to move beyond it and accept that people will say whatever they like and delete whatever they like of their own words.
Brigid
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Hi Guys I feel locking threads is one thing but deleting threads removes the voices of all the others that were not causing problems.I do not know removing all those experiences just seems a shame for so many.
Respect is worth going the mile .We have all gone the mile a then some.
Moon
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bean,
harass you? not hardly. You must have me mistaken for someone with too much time on my hands. I haven't even addressed you in a while, so respectfully DROP IT and LAY OFF THE PERSECUTION COMPLEX kick.
RM
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bean I did not know Dr G wanted RM to remove harassing posts to you of course thats why he had RM do that .I have not been sleeping well duh I do not have thinking cap on ,lack of sleep...........................sorry bean sometimes I am a big dope
thank you for explaining to me what was happening on the board bean for some one that likes to think about Richard Feynman ETC I can be really be dense................thanks for clearing it up! over and out Houston I loved it when Marta posted that.
Moon
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RM With all respect REALLYme, it could look like you are starting to harass bean here. I think you do not wish to give that appearance.
Moonlight
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With all respect, why doesn't anyone seem to notice that I've just been posting things about my feelings, saying NOTHING to bean, and she all of a sudden says I'm harassing her and threatens me. Do you all not see the dynamic there with her? If not, I forgive you. I will continue to share my story and experiences with those interested.
Laura
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breaaaaattttthhhhe....
Hope it's okay for me to ask this:
Bean, can you let it go now?
Laura, can you as well?
(if you can't make peace, you could choose not to engage each other, might help to let those sore feelings cool down all the way...?)
Just a thought. I think time will help if you trust it.
Today felt like a better day.
Hops
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Good morning, good morning
Bean, good to see you again
the reason reallyme was asked to delete her posts about and to me is because they were harassing me and slanderous. This is not only against this board's rules, it violates laws in some states. That is the reason why she was asked to delete those particular posts.
Bean, very serious questions for you: Are you absolutely positively sure that that is the reason and the only reason? Did Dr G confirm to you that that was his only, sole reason for asking Laura to delete her posts? Can you say that as fact?
My experience: ‘Portia’ has been slandered on this board. ‘Portia’ has slandered others too. Some posts still exist to prove this (nooooo please, I don’t wanna look them up). They haven’t been deleted. (An aside: ‘Portia’ is my board name. The person I am on my birth certificate hasn’t actually been slandered.)
Laura, I appreciated your posts except for:
so respectfully DROP IT and LAY OFF THE PERSECUTION COMPLEX kick.
Because this is telling Bean she has a complex. It’s hurtful. Ouch! Bean hurts! If someone told you that you had a complex, you’d fire right back yes? I think you would. So it’s saying ‘drop it’ and then firing off an attack. You attack, the other person is likely to attack back. And so it goes on and on and…..I forget who ‘started it’ and it just ends up a mess that becomes …. confusing really.
Is it helpful, is it productive, really? You could say yes, you’re defending yourself and telling the truth, but does that help you or others? If you believe that you’re okay, there’s no need to keep firing back. This isn’t a real war. You can’t get physically hurt here. If you know you’re okay, that’s all you need to know. If Bean thinks otherwise, that’s what she thinks. You can’t change what someone else thinks. Only they can change their own mind. Maybe she’ll change her mind about you if you stop giving her reasons to think you want to hurt her?
Bean - do you really think that Laura wants to hurt you?
Laura - do you really think that Bean wants to hurt you?
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Hi Portia,
My memory's not perfect but from what I remember Doc G's post directed RM to remove her posts and she did. But it was about Bean and RM, a specific situation.
What I would like most is if we all could end the PM now. Post-Mortem, I mean. And if small leftover sparks pop, step back, let them fly. Nothing flammable in cyberspace. Hmmm. Well, not true. But we could douse them gently (which you actually were just trying to do, weren't you, P?) :)
That is what I wish anyway. So we can all let it heal.
(I was thinking there's never a perfect last word and all rough edges don't get polished away. That parallels 3-D life too.)
Just what I'd love to see happen. Maybe unrealistic, things that have been fiery can reflare, I know. Maybe we could not blow on the coals.
Yesterday was a much better day. Maybe today will be too.
(((((((Bean))))))) (((((((RM)))))))) (((((((Portia))))))) ((((((Anyone else who felt hurt by it all)))))))
A hopeful
Hops
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Oh Hops. Good morning! I’m going to discuss this if that’s okay with you. Well, I’m going to say some things but you don’t have to join me if you’d rather not! 8)
My memory's not perfect but from what I remember Doc G's post directed RM to remove her posts and she did. But it was about Bean and RM, a specific situation.
I don’t want to guess at Dr G’s motivations/reasons for his intervention but I agree that RM’s posts to Bean were part of it. However, I am questioning Bean’s understanding of the reasons for the intervention.
Bean, sorry :?, I hate talking about people, so I’ll talk to you.
I'd be happy if you could think about what you’ve said over the page and maybe think of alternatives? That’s all. I don’t think it’s as cut and dried as you put it there. I think there are other reasons. I’m asking you to look at it from a different perspective, with grey areas included. Is that okay? Do I need to be more specific in what I mean? I think this might help you, that’s why. There are other ways of seeing things. I'm not saying you're wrong, nor am I saying you're right either!
Back to you Hops.
What I would like most is if we all could end the PM now. Post-Mortem, I mean. And if small leftover sparks pop, step back, let them fly. Nothing flammable in cyberspace. Hmmm. Well, not true.
I think I know you’d like that Hops ((((((Hops)))))) because I see you as the harmony-maker. But peace doesn’t happen when folks still have their tanks lined up at their borders.
But we could douse them gently (which you actually were just trying to do, weren't you, P?)
Sorry Hops but no. I’m not for dousing. I’m for understanding (self and others), and for peace and reconciliation if that’s eventually possible. I’m hopeful, persistent and a pain in the arse.
And I love you Hops, you know that I hope :D
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:oops:
Sure, I know that, P.... :) :oops:
I, uhhhh, I know! I meant dowsing.
You know, like with the y-shaped stick when you are looking for ....uhhh....the water of truth!
The springs of clarity! The fountain of understanding!
Just kidding. With a smile on my mug. But actually not totally kidding, that is what you do.
Go fer it, P. I trust your intention, always.
love back,
Hops
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Hi Brigid
What is written here becomes a part of the history of what has taken place here. I think there is benefit to looking back on discussions--no matter how delicate or potentially disruptive they may have been at the time.
I was thinking about this last night. I’m the sort of person who keeps old letters, diaries etc. In fact I have too much of that stuff! I value that kind of history because each time I revisit it, I learn new things (about myself and others). In some ways I’d like to junk the lot of it. I think keeping some of it is hanging on to the past, but I guess it’s a balance as always.
Some of the history here disappeared when the board software changed. I probably lost a few posts, I haven’t checked but really, there’s too much now for me to look at. And sometimes I think: I really must go and revisit that – and I don’t, usually, because today and now is more important. I can learn from looking back, a little, but not that much it seems.
Then I got to thinking about why I would want all threads kept intact. I was a bit sad when the last thread was deleted because I wanted to read Dr G’s post again (I skip read it only) but hey, that’s just me being nosy about what Dr G says. Is it of benefit to me? Not really. Just curiosity. What other reasons might I have for wanting threads kept? Maybe evidence, the proof of who said what to whom. Then I thought that was a pretty unproductive reason, who cares in the final analysis? I’m not here to prove myself right and others wrong am I? The actual events don’t matter so much as the progress that’s made to me. I’m more interested in where we are today.
If things disappear, get deleted, it is a shame but I think if there are things that still need resolving to us, then we’ll resolve them somehow. A bit like the repetition compulsion, we’ll keep doing the same thing until we realise it’s not getting us anywhere different. So we’ll create new things that will become history that we can then look back on! That’s what I was musing on. Thanks for getting me musing Brigid. I wish it paid!
Hops
just seen your post - you got me smiling - thank you and not just for your amazing way with words, which I completely appreciate and love :D 8)
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Hi all,
Just wanted to briefly address this:
My memory's not perfect but from what I remember Doc G's post directed RM to remove her posts and she did. But it was about Bean and RM, a specific situation.
I, too, asked Dr. G. to address this with RM. I don't feel like it was an isolated incident. I felt unsafe and attacked - even indirectly. I did not feel the proliferation of hateful, degrading, condescending, and disrespectful attitude until RM started posting. I even tried to post my own thread so that I wouldn't have to see her comments and she kept popping up. When I tried to set a boundary, about her hijacking my thread, it was ignored and ridiculed.
I can pick a fight anytime in the real world b/c I KNOW it can be an unsafe place. And I realize that conflict is a part of life and welcome a good "chew of the fat", HOWEVER, when someone RELENTLESSLY attacks people and BLATANTLY refuses to even TRY to meet halfway, it's time to say enough. At some time, someone needs to come in and put a muzzle on the rabid dog or at least contain it.
Movinon
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Hi all:
Portia, this really helped me:
Maybe evidence, the proof of who said what to whom. Then I thought that was a pretty unproductive reason, who cares in the final analysis? I’m not here to prove myself right and others wrong am I? The actual events don’t matter so much as the progress that’s made to me. I’m more interested in where we are today.
Thankyou.
:D Sela
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Hi, MO--
Yes, it was distressing, what was happening...
I just want to ask, can people give the rabid dog a little credit for trying (hard, I feel) to make a fresh start? I really would love that, not just because I'm a peacemaker, but because I feel the tone and content of RM's postings yesterday (except for that one snarl at Bean) was a major change.
She was open, shared detailed stories that made her feel more vulnerable and 3D to me, and it helped (me anyway) understand some of her aggression...
Maybe this belated anger venting is stuff people had...umm, stuffed...for a while. So maybe it does need to come out again. I can understand that.
I'm just chewing my nails a little over it. Because, well...busted. I do crave peace. But peace with substance, not just silence. (And fingernails are optional, imo.)
I'll butt out. I know people might need to vent some more. I guess because I am ready to let it go doesn't demand that everybody else line up with me like little ducks.
Aha. Just put myself in perspective. Ow! (I'm not in charge of the universe?? :()
Well! :oops:
That may have been useless to anybody else, but thanks for listening!
Love to all.
Hops
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Brilliant! Okay, to respect privacy (but thank you to the person who sent it 8)), I’ll say someone sent me Dr G’s post from that thread. My big fat nose is being fed with what it likes! Too nosy for my own good I know.
Anyone want to read it again? I do I do! :D haha. No I really do. Dr G, hope you don’t mind (?) but this is what you said:
reallyME,
You are free to defend yourself but not use slander—there is no evidence that Bean meets the criteria for Narcissistic Personality Disorder. Therefore you must remove such references from the board. You can, of course, state your positions—to have your voice as long as you obey the board rules, and, at my discretion, do not compromise the general safety of the board.
I am also free to have my voice—although I would much rather speak through my essays. I am Jewish and agnostic. My essays are not religious, nor do they presuppose a God. Indeed, they are humanistic—a position that you devalued in one of your posts. I work with many people of faith. We talk about faith, respect each other, acknowledge our differences. These differences are a healthy part of our relationship. While I don’t require others to share my view, this board has sprung from that mindset.
In one of your posts you said: “As far as giving thought to others and their faith, sorry, not happening. Jesus didn't, and I'm not.” Nor does Osama Bin Laden. This is a particularly dangerous position when inculcated in others—even if the teachings of Christ are added to the equation. If you consider the Inquisition—and many other historical events—millions have died as a result of this inability to accept other forms of belief or non-belief. You may want to read Sam Harris’ excellent new book “The End of Faith” for a full and disturbing accounting of this point of view.
But my main objection to your quote (and I believe the reason your reception on this board has been chilly at best)—the quote again:
“As far as giving thought to others and their faith, sorry, not happening. Jesus didn't, and I'm not.”
is that this philosophy directly supports voicelessness. Essentially, you are saying there is only one correct Voice: Jesus/Yours. Everyone else needs to change. Narcissistic parents and partners provide exactly this message to the ones closest to them. While you may continue to try to convert people to your views, I doubt that you will have any success in this venue. However if you are truly interested in promoting and respecting all voices—and not just Jesus’s/yours, I am sure this community (which is dear to me) will welcome you with open arms.
Best wishes,
Richard
There’s so much in there that I like.
Bean and Laura, hope you don’t mind me posting that. I don’t want to inflame anything between you at all. Not my intention.
Darn, I feel like I’m going back on what I just said in the post to Brigid (re what you saw Sela) – I’m rehashing the evidence now. Well, maybe not, I just want to read it all again and heck, share it because I reckon I can’t be the only one who’s nosy around here? (oh maybe :oops: :roll:….)
PS Hops – what???? :o I thought you were in charge today?? No? :shock: Well who the heck is then? Don’t tell me we’re without someone ready to tell us off if we go ‘wrong’ (or congratulate us if we go ’right’….funny that, we never talk about going right do we, but we do say going wrong…). :D
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Portia,
Yes I'm sure.
have a good day,
bean
Bean, I don't understand? What are you sure about please?
I hope you're okay too. I was really hoping you'd come back and talk here. If you want. No problem if not. Take care bean.
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Hi P:
Nope. You're not the only nosey one. I wanted to read it again too because I did see so much there the first time. I hope it doesn't get deleted. It is important history, imo.
Thanks whoever pm'd P.
I think it's good to put where we are now as priority and count mostly......our progress but also......(as I complained already and maybe I'm responsible for this whole new discussion :oops:.......didn't mean to drum anything up.....just was stating what bugs me).....but also......important is truth. What really happened. For me, that's big stuff.
Still.......there has to be a balance between my needs and those of everyone else, so I do totally get the importance of deleting at will or by direction from Dr. G and will try harder to pay attention to the present, next time that happens.
Hope that made at least some sense. :roll:
:D Sela
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Then I got to thinking about why I would want all threads kept intact. I was a bit sad when the last thread was deleted because I wanted to read Dr G’s post again (I skip read it only) but hey, that’s just me being nosy about what Dr G says. Is it of benefit to me? Not really. Just curiosity. What other reasons might I have for wanting threads kept? Maybe evidence, the proof of who said what to whom. Then I thought that was a pretty unproductive reason, who cares in the final analysis? I’m not here to prove myself right and others wrong am I? The actual events don’t matter so much as the progress that’s made to me. I’m more interested in where we are today.
If things disappear, get deleted, it is a shame but I think if there are things that still need resolving to us, then we’ll resolve them somehow. A bit like the repetition compulsion, we’ll keep doing the same thing until we realise it’s not getting us anywhere different. So we’ll create new things that will become history that we can then look back on!
Very good points, Portia. It is so important to learn from the past, then move on to what it means today and what has been learned. The past can be a heavy burden. I have learned this the hard way. My own tendency is to be locked into what was said before and not being able to switch gears and get on with it. Like a very severe type of grudge-holding. It has kept me in place when I should have been growing and learning and really living my life. It has kept me from letting new people in. Remembering the past is important. But dwelling in the past holds me back. The main thing is to know the difference I suppose. That's one of the things I'm in the midst of.
Your point that if things still need resolving then we'll resolve them is important. Things don't resolve themselves. Feelings and hurts don't go away by themselves. And they have a life of their own. By letting go of the old past, we maybe will be open to new perspectives and have a different chance to resolve the old hurts and issues that need resolving. Sometimes with me it has been my pride that has caused me to hang onto old hurts so long. Plain old pride. Couldn't admit that I goofed or was childish or mistaken or whatever. I have way too much pride. It makes me a prisoner. I want to be free. So, I'm working on letting go of that pride which holds me back.
This is just me and how I approach the history angle of this issue. It is what motivates me to be biased towards letting go and moving on, keeping in mind that the issues, emotions, hurts don't go away. But it might be important to let them come to the surface on their own and then I, or whoever, can meet them and deal with them as a new (and hopefully improved) me.
Old posts--this example is from 3-D life not cyber life. My oldest son and I had a relationship (for probably the first 10 or so years of his life) mostly of power struggles and such (I was 18 when he was born, our personalities maybe too similar, etc.). I was always trying to fix him as my way of raising him. One time during an argument he said, "You always use my words against me!" Oh, was he ever right! What I perceived as helping, raising, fixing, he perceived as a power play. And the worst kind, using his own words (from past conversations, arguments) against himself as a weapon. He was very hurt by this. I believe I fell into this habit because I didn't have any wisdom of my own to offer. I was very insecure as a young parent and afraid all the time. I used what "ammo" I could get my hands on to make this parenthood thing work. Including his own words about himself and his beliefs. I didn't intend to hurt him in that way. But it did hurt him and our relationship. When he said that, I was very embarrassed and defensive. But it stuck in my mind. I learned something important from him when he said that. Those words from the past I keep with me and try to apply whenever possible. I am amazed at how often it is possible to apply that lesson he taught me. So many times I could use someone's words against them. But I try not to. Maybe they don't feel that way anymore. Maybe if I do that I'm breaking a trust, they trusted me and revealed something about themselves and that is a gift not to be thrown back at them when later I may want a particular outcome.
These are my own personal lessons that I remembered when Portia gave her opinion about the loss of the old posts. Anyone can take what they want from this or disregard it completely. It's all a process. Each of us has our process.
Also, I'm glad to read Dr. Grossman's post as I had missed it completely.
Pennyplant
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Re: What are good ‘board’ manners to you?
: May 07, 2006, 01:44:42 AM » I spent my entire life being kind to everyone else. Because I was raised by abusers, and trained in such a way that my kindness simply attracted more of them, I have few recollections of anyone being significantly and reliably kind to me in return. I do recall being exhausted and 'tapped out' emotionally, time after time, and scorned at such times by my closest associates - I now realize this was because they regarded me as a source of something for them, only, and they were displeased that 'the well was dry'
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This is exactly what has happened to me my entire life
When i needed someone to be there they were not
Their "well" went dry and if i could not keep on giving" i was of no use to anyone (I didn't know they were "leaky buckets"
I have learned (slowly) to allow myself to say NO and to learn to care for me and that I am worth it Though i still work too hard and still tend to ignore myself (especially when i am sick)
No one ever has or had cared for me and i didn't know how to
My needs were never even addressed and even has a child i was ignored (I remember when i would have asthma attacks and my N mother would keep telling me i was and fine and only faking it)
As for what is "Good manners"
I believe it is very simple To respect and honor others and let them have their thoughts and feelings and voice You do not have to agree with everyone
I guess to me what is annoying on the board/posting is when some one takes over ("hijacking") i think is what someone said They are distracting from someone"s need to get help and when somone pushes their thoughts and feelings on to you and will not tolerate a difference of thought or opinion. It reminds me too much of N's and how they work their twisted mind on you (because you must be wrong they are the only one that can be right)
blue
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Hey Hops -
To be honest, I didn't look at RM's post yesterday. I was choosing to stay away from any thread started by her b/c of the turmoil that's been in her posts. I had made the suggestion to her that she start her own thread and not hijack mine and I was trying to give her the space to have her say.
So you say she is trying (hard). Am I willing to allow her that, give her credit? Heck yeah!!!! (See - my prayer to Goddess worked after all :)) Vulnerability is WONDERFUL and HUMAN.
However, I am still in protection mode. I lived w/ and aggressive, hostile, angry, abusive man for too long to trust that things have changed overnight (this is MY stuff here).
I won't be shooting arrows.
Movinon
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I seem to have RM's post too. Dog may have eaten up some lines though.
I hear ya. I know need new hearing aids though. WHAT, don’t go to The Home Store? But that’s where I ALWAYS shop. OK, fine, tell me where I need to go then.
Let Glory be.
Interesting that the next verses you pulled were the typical “judge not” ones. People that don’t want to be held accountable always tend to quote those to protect themselves. Since you said you’ve read the Bible, then I ask if you are aware that “judgment begins in the house of the Lord?” Are you also aware that we are TOLD to JUDGE and TEST THE SPIRITS in parts of the Bible? That it says “remove the board from your eyes, SO THAT YOU CAN SEE CLEARLY TO REMOVE THE SPLINTER from your friend’s eye.” That doesn’t say “DO NOT REMOVE THE SPLINTER.” In fact it says “REMOVE THE SPLINTER” because otherwise I am hopping over across the street for my Happy Meals.
I do not hold “judge not lest ye be judged” as those verses do not speak of addressing someone’s behavior, they speak of judgment of HEAVEN OR HELL on another person. If you were not to judge anyone, not one person, especially a follower of Jesus, would be part of this board, talking about evils done to them by N’s.
As far as comparing myself to Jesus, “BE YE PERFECT AS I AM PERFECT” were Jesus’ words. His Sprite lives in me and I am made in His image, therefore I have every right and even RESPONSIBILITY to compare myself to HIM, as do any followers of Him.
Oh, feel free to challenge me on the scriptures as well. I am a pastor and I love a good scriptural spar once in a while. I’m also a full-Gospel-and then some, however so I follow a very literal interpretation of the Word of God.
Blessya, LB
PS Let poor li’l Gloria be.
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Marta,
I don't understand why you reposted RM's post when she chose to delete it.
That seems disrespectful to me...at the least, deliberate flame-fanning.
Seems to me she had calmed herself and was trying to engage in a friendlier voice.
Do you not want to give her another chance?
Off for a while,
Hops
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Jacmac,
I saw a movie called "Gaslight." Once again I will state, that I WAS ASKED to remove my posts from before, by the BOARD OWNER. I understand that some people feel like time was erased and they were invalidated. I merely heeded what the owner asked me to do, so if there is a problem with it, please contact Dr Grossman, rather than stressing over it all.
Laura
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Reallyme/ Liz/ Laura-
nothing is ever invalidated in the wider picture.
G_d is everywhere.
Thngs can though become retrograde, nit-picking and working against the greater good or social development.
Delete or not delete- reproduce or ignore- the issue really ( really is ) how do we move forward?
Individually and as a collective.
Sometimes life feels too like a rhyme we sang as children:
There was an old man named Michael Finnegan
He had whiskers on his chinnegan
They fell out and then grew in again
Poor old Michael Finnegan
Begin again.
There was an old man named Michael Finnegan
He went fishing with a pinnegan
Caught a fish and dropped it in again
Poor old Michael Finnegan
Begin again.
There was an old man named Michael Finnegan
He grew fat and then grew thin again
Then he died and had to begin again
Poor old Michael Finnegan
Begin again.
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I have moved on
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write,
Why do you type G_d?
Movinon
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I asked questions a while back here about whether Bean and Laura really wanted to hurt each other. And both Bean and Laura answered me privately that no, they didn’t want to hurt the other. I wanted both to know that, because it matters to me. I don’t think anyone here intends to hurt others but sometimes when we hurt, when we’re triggered or we’re in emotional pain, it’s very difficult to see beyond that. Well it has been for me.
Jacmac,
I guess it's all about where you are at the time.
I think so too. Was I unable to stand by my convictions in the past? Yes, I think so because I realised my convictions were in question – and I was the one who was questioning them (with help from people here). A while back you said something to me about not going back to old posts, it being irrelevant (or similar, can’t remember your exact words). I didn’t understand then, but I do now, and I agree with you.
Write
You know how you get a song in your head and it won’t go away? Well I’ve got ‘Michael Finnegan’ running around my head. I like it really, it reminds me of my good granddad. He taught it to me and we used to sing it as a ‘round’ (do folks know what a ‘round’ is? Where you each start the song at different points until you’re all singing against, but with, each other, a kind of harmonious several-level-song). Good fun. Especially on long car journeys!
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You know how you get a song in your head and it won’t go away?
yes, it's caled a 'cognitive itch' and apparently the only way to 'scratch' it is to hear the song over and over; therefore if you want to write a number one hit you have to find something which sets this up!
example: Chumbawamba, I get knocked down etc! an unlikely hit...
we used to sing it as a ‘round’
wow, never knew it worked as a round!
G_d
many people don't speak the name or write it in full, so as not to be disrespectful or take the name in vain ( it has become such a common word to use casually in my culture & I have unintentionally offended people many times using it as an exclamation...)
Jewish people don't speak or write it, and many Christians here say Gd ( speak the two letters )
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A non-scientific term I've heard for getting a song stuck in your head is "ear worm." Ugh, I get them many days. They say the only wayo to get rid of one is to give it to someone else. :lol:
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Thank heaven I don't know the tune to Michael Finnegan...
um,, hey, Write...how does that tune go??
:D
wormily,
Hops
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Write, I slept on my 'cognitive itch' and it seems to gone away…as long as I don’t scroll up and read those lyrics again…! I think it works as a round…well, we used to do it and I found it very difficult to concentrate on my lines with only a few singers – too easy to tune-in to someone else and forget where I was. (Oatcakes…. I remember that you make them. I still eat them but shop-bought, usually rolled up with melted Cheddar inside…oh not cheese again 8)).
Jacmac, is it terrible? Sorry if it is. I think you said “I don’t go back to old posts” and that got me thinking – why not? Is there something in this for me? Maybe you didn’t mean to be deep but I perceived it as such – so thank you! :D
Beth, ear-worm? Nasty! I worried about the insects ‘earwigs’ as a kid, I thought they would climb into your ear and eat your brain. Now I know they eat plants. Knowledge is a comforting thing sometimes.
Oh Hops you posted…what did you say? .....
"thereeeee (big long intro word then very fast - ) wasanoldmancalledMichaelFinnag
Drat! :x :roll: :| :D
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Google is my friend! :D You know you want it Hops….
Click it click it! (scroll down) http://www.gardenofsong.com/bobbyb.html
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:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
I did. Uggh. I am adequately punished!
Aaagggh. The sorta tune invented by gremlins.
Oh spare me, it'll be a long (da da dumdumdum) Friday....
Hops
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Hey I remember the Michael Finnegan song, but worse than that is a song made popular among little tikes, by Sharon, Lois and Braham, that goes:
"I am slowly going crazy, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 switch, crazy going slowly am I, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 switch" and it starts out slow and then gets faster and faster till eventually it either fades out or ends.
Even their song "This is a song that never ends, yes it goes on and on my friends, some people started singing it, not knowin what it was, and we'll just keep on singin it forever just because, this is a song that never ends...."
AD NAUSEUM...
I'm kind of glad my children are now older, we don't have cable and that show has not been on in my house in a long time; yet, there were some skits on it that I enjoyed.
~Laura
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Laura those songs sound…..infuriating!
Reminds me of a story my nan would start off with me (it isn’t a story, it’s a bit of humour kids can understand so that they get to feel ‘effective’ when they do understand it):
It was a dark and stormy night, three brigands sat in a cave
One of the brigands said, listen and I’ll tell you a tale…
“It was a dark and stormy night, three brigands sat in a cave
One of the brigands said, listen and I’ll tell you a tale…”
…and so on until the child shrieks with laughter that they’ve ‘got it’. Good fun. :D
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I used to get that song that never ends stuck in my head nearly every day when our daughter was a shrimp because Shari Lewis ended her daily Lamb Chops show with it. D still has her grubby little Lamb Chops she used to sleep with every night.
Its stuck there now as a matter of fact. :?
mud
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not posting SPAM!
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Ha ha, write!!!! :lol:
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Whoops!
Just found out today that sending personal messages are an option here, vs. posting on and cluttering a thread for everyone.
My apologies to everyone for posts I've made since starting here that would have been a better fit as PMs to individuals.
Thought I'd post this since other newbies might not know about the PM option either? (or just techno-dim newbies like me)
Mea Culpa, and thanks for tolerating my board etiquette slip(s)
best,
LoH
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Hi LoH,
I don't know what you're referring to because I've found all your posts to be valuable and didn't experience any as belonging more appropriately to a PM.
There's no book of etiquette here, we just work things out together most of the time.
Hops