Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: reallyME on May 21, 2006, 08:54:54 AM
-
I have come to realize that the biggest conflict I've had personally on this board, is that there is a message that "you will be accepted, as long as you will speak that there are many ways to achieve freedom, even ways that don't involve the Creator." "We won't come against you, as long as you will equally value our beliefs as being truth." In other words, it is about there being no ABSOLUTES. I am a person who stands for truth, and I don't mean just "personal truths" I mean THE truth that will make people free. In that truth, there is no room for "well, this could be the truth too, this might be another way to believe..." This is where I have faced the most conflict.
I do not expect people to now all of a sudden say "wow, HEY she has a point, so we will all just switch to following the God she does." That's too unrealistic to expect or believe, even for me.
I am merely posting this, because I'd like people to imagine what things have been like for me, being one who refuses to bend, because I found something, Someone who I know is the answer to N'ism and other things. Please also realize I am facing persecution even within my own "circle" because I also teach and preach the psychological end of personality disorders and dysfunction.
So, for those who are here on this board, I'm the "enemy" because I refuse to bend in my stance that Jesus is THE way, and not declare Him "a" way. For those who stand in what I do regarding Jesus being THE way, if I mention psychology as also having answers, through cognitive therapy, I also face people seeing me as a "compromiser" of THE way. So, being who I am, I have a definite choice to make here. I can fold and go along with people on this board, tolerating everyone's "way" as being a possible way equal to THE way, and betray God and self....or I can stand firm, as I've chosen to do. On the other side, I can fold and just agree that the Bible and Jesus are the only ways to help dysfunctional people, again betraying God and myself, or I can stand and tell all of the people in my same-stance group, that there are indeed other methods to help reach hurting, abused, neglected, engrandized people.
Does anyone relate to this dilemma? If I want not to have this problem, I must change and cease being who I am, and that is a price I am not willing to pay. Just where I'm at, through my eyes.
~RM
-
Excerpt of previous post from Dr. Grossman, reposted a 2nd time in Good Board Manners thread:
Really ME,
In one of your posts you said: “As far as giving thought to others and their faith, sorry, not happening. Jesus didn't, and I'm not.” Nor does Osama Bin Laden. This is a particularly dangerous position when inculcated in others—even if the teachings of Christ are added to the equation. If you consider the Inquisition—and many other historical events—millions have died as a result of this inability to accept other forms of belief or non-belief. You may want to read Sam Harris’ excellent new book “The End of Faith” for a full and disturbing accounting of this point of view.
But my main objection to your quote (and I believe the reason your reception on this board has been chilly at best)—the quote again:
“As far as giving thought to others and their faith, sorry, not happening. Jesus didn't, and I'm not.”
is that this philosophy directly supports voicelessness. Essentially, you are saying there is only one correct Voice: Jesus/Yours. Everyone else needs to change. Narcissistic parents and partners provide exactly this message to the ones closest to them. While you may continue to try to convert people to your views, I doubt that you will have any success in this venue. However if you are truly interested in promoting and respecting all voices—and not just Jesus’s/yours, I am sure this community (which is dear to me) will welcome you with open arms.
Best wishes,
Richard
Note: I am merely reposting this here because I think it is worth considering what specific messages the founder and moderator of this board has identified as a philosophy that directly supports voicelessness and echoes the messages of Narcissistic parents and parents have provided...a source of tremendous pain for so many people who are bravely seeking respect for their voices now.
Sincerely,
LoH
-
Laura , I missed you. Come on, here now .............You know very well I always said I admired your strong faith in the LORD!
and I did not try and change you and respected your Faith.HEY HEY girl .I know you do not believe in my cosmic views
Laura ,when was that ever not OK with me .IS that a double negative oh well you know what I mean.OK
I also love the way you use
"Bejeebers" in the thread to jacmac.Hope you had a great time with your spiritual mom .I am sure you did .You deserve
a great time.I never felt hurt by you .And I am such a sacrey cat I am betting I never hurt you.Thats a good thing.So maybe
people that do not have same beliefs can like each other.Also admire one another?I will say it again I have always admired your
strong Faith.I am not trying to change you and never felt like your enemy.Also what you wrote to Seasons was so sweet.
This is Moon signing off Reallyme ps I believe laura is not going to be making her Faith an issue at every turn if Reallyme intents on doing
so I guess now would be a good time to say so.Also I believe in 2nd chances.............I believe rm is using a softer voice and not labeling
So what kind of a world would it be if we tried to get along here on the board and exchange veiws without ill feelings?
Love and Light
Moon
-
Hi ReallyMe,
I have to start this post by stating that i have found most of your posts up untill now to be triggering to say the least. I have had some people in my past who were
uncompromisingly religious and, in my case, i found them to be abusive. I have to be honest enough to state that i am not religious and i have a really difficult
time 'getting into the headspace' of deeply religious people. I understand that this is my problem and is a product of my intolerance. In saying all of this i do want you to
know that your post has really resonated with me. I found it honest, heartfelt ahd vulnerable, and it makes me question what the moderator of the board had to say.
What you are saying is that you know the Truth (you have stated what you believe so i won't go into it) and that you are not going to compromise this position. What
the moderator and the majority of the population (including me) seem to be saying is that this is just one of a number of truths and they should all be respected equally.
However, and i think this is where your frustration comes in, they are being dishonest to themselves. What they are really saying is that all beliefs are equal as long as
tolerance (or reason or liberalism or whatever word you want to use) is agreed to be the only Truth. While Religious intolerance has contributed to voicelessness in the
past, I think we should also be aware that tolerance can also contribute to voicelessness as well.
I am not sure if this is a very clear post or if this is what you mean ReallyMe, but i just wanted you to know that your post really hit home with me and made me feel
ashamed
-
ReallyME,
You are not my enemy, I admire you as a faithful child of God, hope I put that in correct terms
. I going out for the day ~ baby shower with my two N's. Just wanted you to know I quickly ready this and wanted to let you know I heard you, will talk later.
seasons
-
Hi ,There is a T.V.program going on between High school kids.They are Palestinian High school kids and Israelis High school kids.
The program is to see if these kids can sit in the same room with each other and talk .They talk about lots of stuff war ,faith,being teenagers making the world a better place and not hating because of Religion.OH YEAH A BIG TOPIC WAS THEIR PARENTS.Seems like they can talk about a lot of stuff and they are, it was a cool show.Maybe we can learn a lot from kids.It's a cable T.V. SHOW.I will look up the channel and post it.It was amazing ,they were just teenagers.
Moon
-
Hi Petra,
I was moved by what you said about your thoughts and feelings around intolerance. You gave me a lot to think about, and I thank you.
I appreciate your right to speak your views, as much as I respect mine or Really Me's or Dr. Grossman's. That said, I object to you telling anyone here that they are being dishonest to themselves, or categorizing their only Truths. I think this board is packed with good, honest people who struggle, against all sorts of odds, to support each other and address their own healing. I honor eveyone's right to disagree with me or anyone else, but I have to speak against assumptions that challenge other folks' honesty or what's in their hearts.
Respectfully,
LoH
-
Hi Really,
Welcome back. Sounds like your time with your spiritual mentor was just wonderful, intimate, reassuring and affirming. She must be a wonderful person and I can hear in your gentler tone how much good it did you to be loved and cared for by her for nine days. I hope you can keep loving YOURSELF just like that... at some point, we who weren't well-mothered do need to learn to turn that actual love right into ourselves, beaming it into our own chests, instead of looking for it to onlly come into us from outside ourselves. It's a surprising feeling.
I want to mention that when you generalize, like this:
for those who are here on this board, I'm the "enemy" because I refuse to bend
...you'll invariably be mistaken about many people. People here, like anywhere, are distinct individuals, and have given you very sincere and very individual answers. (You're not "enemy" to me, and I'm honestly a little disappointed you didn't notice the love I've offered you.)
But I think you're thinking very clearly and summed up your dilemma about absolutism (in both situations, with liberals and literals) really well. In a way you're caught in a position where you do respect other sources of wisdom, e.g., psychology--but can't go too far with it or mess with your core beliefs.
I feel for you. I don't know what that's like because I am not an absolutist, but I think you've articulated it very well.
Hops
-
Hi Light of Heart.
Look, I am really sorry that i offended you...that was not my intention. My post was all about my thoughts and feelings regarding 'tolerance' and was not intended to include anyone else. Dishonesty was the wrong word to use but, i was really pointing the finger at me. I used the post of Dr Grossman because it has been playing on my mind for a couple of weeks and then, when i read ReallyMe's post, i had a bit of a lightbulb moment. It was insensitive of me to use it without clarifying what my intention was with you and i apologize for that.
Sorry
On re-reading my post, i understand that i used a lot of words that seemed to be speaking for everyone....that was sloppy writing and it wasn't intended
-
Hi RM:
Jesus hung around with all the riff raff of the times.......criminals, prostitutes, leppars, non-believers, all faiths, all positions in society, you name it. He tolerated everyone. He tried to get His message across to every single person....no matter what their class, belief or past behaviour and He loved everyone.
I just don't get how you are so absolutely certain that....
tolerating everyone's "way" as being a possible way equal to THE way,
as a betrayal to God and yourself??
It seems to me that you are betraying God and yourself by NOT tolerating, NOT loving, NOT welcoming and considering yourself enemy to..........all people who are not of your beliefs.
If you really want to emulate Jesus, maybe the best way is to be patient with everyone and accept them and hope that in time, they will hear your message vs discounting their voices?
Sela
-
Hi Petra,
I really appreciate your apology and the time you took to clarify what you meant, thanks for your generosity. :D
I see a lot of good intentions worth protecting here. More than offense, that's what I felt: protective of everyone who posts here. That's why I re-posted Dr. G's reply in this thread to begin with--not out of a desire to silence anyone, or temper their views, but as a gentle reminder that how we choose to express ourselves here can impact other people emotionally.
One example: in a group, if I hear something that sounds like potentially hurtful talk, I almost always jump in and say, hey, what about the person/people on the other side of what you just said? I had an N. parent who targeted everyone else in the family worse than me, so I have a need to affirm that hurtful talk isn't okay rather than bystand, and to defend whoever seems to be on the short end of that stick. I know I'm not alone in this, and everyone here has issues just as important/embedded/emotional, all worth considering.
Please know that I'd defend you doggedly, too, Petra. imho, it was really big of you to apologize so quickly and graciously.
Best,
LoH
-
LoH,
Thank YOU and welcome to the board...were both newbies i notice.
Bean,
I wasn't making a judgment on tolerance, it was more just my rambling thoughts upon anything that is held to be the ultimate Truth. It gives me a headache too thinking about it.
ReallyMe,
On re-reading my post, it seems to be rather harsh and critical of you. That wasn't my intention. I hope you can read past this to what i really meant, which was that i can understand your dilemma
-
Really,
I want to take back my little guilt trip about not feeling appreciated.
My support for you wasn't conditional.
(Just caught that. Ick.)
Hops
-
Hops, I didn't mean to negate the extention of care you have shown for me for the most part on this board. I think many on here would agree that you are the most likeable and amiable person on this board. You have a very gentle, non-invasive way of putting your point across...very much like my spiritual Mom can often do. I appreciate that about you and I bless and love you for it.
I also understand what you meant about the collective generalization of "people on the board." I will try not to do that, as it bugs me even when a preacher says things like "WE just don't spend enough time in prayer." I then want to jump up on that platform and tell him, "hey, SPEAK FOR YOURSELF, BUDDY! I constantly live my life in prayer!"
Petra: While Religious intolerance has contributed to voicelessness in the
past, I think we should also be aware that tolerance can also contribute to voicelessness as well.
I think that would be very true in general, yes.
Moon, Bless you. Cosmic views or not, you have a innocence about you that is very refreshing indeed.
Bean, I appreciate your candid honesty about how what I say can sometimes make your head hurt. That's not my intention to be sure, but I realize that many might feel that way, so I want to validate those feelings in you and others. I could easily debate about whether God wants us to be focused on others and not on Him, with you, but it would serve no reasonable or fruitful purpose, so I am refraining.
Thank you everyone for your input. I'm considering all you have said.
~ReallyME
Laura
-
Very kind words, Really. Sorry...I wasn't "fishing," or if I was, I wanted to take my hook back!
But thanks, I'm very touched.
Sounds to me like you're feeling well-aligned right now and that's great to see.
Hope these good feelings stay with you!
Hops
-
Thanks Hops...actually this alignment that you noticed, is always with me. It's just a matter of leaning toward the more melancholy, "feeling" part of who I am, rather than the choleric, headstrong, stubborn side of myself.
Laura
-
Bean,
So why do you need to enter the discussion then....if its so boring....it feels like my feelings, which i am trying to be honest about, are being dismissed as irrelevant
-
Bean,
I get what you are saying now, about the thread being about board members and that they (you) might be offended. Thanks for giving me the benefit of the doubt that i wasn't intentionally meaning harm. Sorry that i didn't extend you the same courtesy (note to self...its not all about me). Can't write any more at the moment cos i have to go to work.
-
BTW, just free-associating...I love to be liked and want to be amiable...but don't want to be "most" anything.
I'm allergic to popularity phrases because although aimiable, I was intensely bullied (botom of the pecking order) at school as a young child. I am liked by people now and feel rich in friends but have never forgotten what that whole schoolyard process of "ranking" people could do. (Not aimed at you especially Reallyme because I know you were just giving me a compliment, and thank you for that.)
As a ramble, another thought about what makes me tick...I think that's one reason I've always recoiled from competition, even in areas of life when it might have done me some good. I never could separate out healthy competition from cruelty. I always hated team sports (not to mention I was the uncoordinated geek, picked last)--as I got older enjoyed horseback riding, swimming, hiking, things you could do alone. I recoil from social snobbery (my town is full of it)...just makes me bananas, all the folks who feel "better" than others because they're just plain luckier. Grrr.
Well! That felt good. I think this place is like an online journal and support group put together.
Hope everybody has a gooooood sleeeeeeep,
Hops
-
bean, it's all good with me...I have no need for you to leave the thread unless you choose to. Your stance about faith is about you, not me. I'm fine with it. Not everyone is going to believe and live the same way. That's life and that's reality.
Blessya
RM
-
HI RM ,I just wanted to say Spiritually how My Faith differs with yours has been said by Sela.Yet I see you as a person RM that
wants to reach out in other ways.I do believe in trying to be as kind as I can .I fall short at times.But I do find most people are good
and kind.And the interesting thing is finding out how we are different and finding we respect each other anyway.
Moonlight
-
bean, I don't see you as paranoid either, and sugarre, I enjoyed your analogy of "walking dogs." You summed up my stance very well, thank you, although, I am able to talk about things other than my personal relationship with my Lord, and have done so on this board several times, as I told the story about Jodi and other N's and situations I've dealt with. Still, it's interesting to see how you view people like me who take strong, immovable stands for truth.
blessya,
RM
-
Bean and Sugarre
Quick question, really direct, an observation:
Why are you now talking about ReallyMe instead of talking to/with her?
Isn’t that a tad………….?
What do you think?
(I think it’s bad manners btw, especially on her thread. It’s something that triggers me when it happens, so I’m vigilant about it. It might not bother RM but it bothers me.)
-
Bean and Sugarre,
I truly understand your caution and discomfort. I think I keep grappling with this because it's part of my view of what needs to happen on this earth...we just have to find the people beneath the dogma (hah! no pun intended, but there you go! :lol:). The war is rumbling in the back of my brain...the Shiites and Sunnis, all faithful believers...struggling to see if they can get along. War there between groups who are different, wars in Africa between those who are different....
If it helps, my childhood experience tells me that RM is obediently following the dictates of her faith when she brings up walking the dog over and over. (Google full-gospel or WOF--Word of Faith Christianity and you'll get a fuller picture). So I figure the evangelism is RM being obedient to the spiritual rules she lives by. I'm not going to argue with anyone's faith unless they're trying to abuse me, and she's not. So what I do is listen for what I think of as the Rest of RM...and she's shared a lot of other things that matter to her and to us. I just read the dog-walking and say to myself, uh-huh, I recall and I believe you, and then keep looking. Ofteny there is something else in there to which I can relate or respond.
Bean hon, in my book a bit unkind to make a dig about RM's husband, the father of her children. I am sure plenty of people here have partners that may not be wonderful, but we don't shame them for it.
It may seem odd that I am persistent in my protectiveness of RM. I know it seems so, since hers at times sounds like the most aggressive nature on here (there have been others before, just as intense). I just sense the person underneath bombast (plus, I've heard no bombast at all since she got back from her retreat but now it's bit as though she's being goaded). I think what's is going on in many people in such faiths is a fragility that rigid beliefs prop up. So I don't want to attack. There's someone home.
I also respect the good works that accompany many people's faith, whether I walk the dogma with them or not.
I think RM is drawn here because there is something she needs here. Like we all are.
Happy Monday all, I don't wanna go back to work...
Hops
-
PS--good point Portia, and I apologize for the third person, ReallyMe.
Hops
-
Hops, hope your day gets better as it progresses! I think you make sound points above. Happy Monday!
Bean and Sugarre, I apologise for the use of bold back there....a sure sign of emotional input. I guess it says, hey this matters to me.
-
whoah Bean big privacy violation :shock:
please delete this and I'll delete this post! Okay? Thanks. And I don't think it's correct - not Christians - no! - others........ on PM if you want to, Okay?
Portia - you added to my hysteria when you PM'd me and stated some fundamentalist Christians in your community want to Kill people who don't believe their views. Can you understand what affect that might have on me?
-
No, changed my mind, it's okay leave it. No problem Bean. more soon...
-
Bean, okay, I understand that RM scares you and I see why from your post and also from knowing your past (the stalker which you posed about, which was truly terrible). I can see that.
Reality checking and testing! :D
What do I see here? I don’t see RM as recruiting. I can see that she likes to meet people online and then in real life. That’s her thing, it’s okay with me. It doesn’t mean I have to meet her. It doesn’t mean that I am in danger. I get to decide what I do. We all do. Some fear is understandable – doesn’t mean it is realistic. Is your fear based on the reality of right here and now?
About our PMs recently. What I said in PM to you was:
which is a step up from some fundamentalists who would kill those who disagree. They live about 10 miles from me. I don’t go there, literally.
I didn’t say they were Christians! Okay? The 7/7 London bombers took a train from Luton. I live close to Luton.
About PMs. What I say in PMs I take as private between myself and the other person. If you want to quote my PMs here, I’d rather you asked me (on PM) first. It would probably be okay with me but, as in this example, best to check the facts first. I didn’t say Christians – that could have caused huge problems here and it’s just one small missing fact. I realise you have assumed I meant Christians, but I didn’t. Better to check first!
Good post though Bean, you’re doing great in my book. Keep talking, communication is what eliminates doubt and fear and that’s good. 8)
-
More Bean :D, and ReallyMe/Laura too,
maybe I can invite you both to talk about this? Might be possible and might be useful, i don't know yet.
I understand why you're scared Bean. I think it has a lot to do with who you are. I'm not scared at all, honestly. Have you seen concrete examples of where RM was trying to recruit, openly, obviously, or is it more of a feeling you have (rather than facts)?
ReallyMe: do you think you have tried to recuit anyone, in any way, or do you think anyone here might have seen it that way (other than Bean)? (I don't see it that way but maybe you would like to find like-minded people here? And I'm not saying there would be anything necessarily wrong with that.)
I'm looking for how you both see it.
Personally, ReallyMe, if you want to actually meet people who you meet online, that's okay with me but I worry about your safety. I guess that sounds like I don't trust your judgement? So maybe I think, well, you know best for yourself and I won't judge you. But I might still worry! But then again....I've met people here who i would like to meet. So when I book a flight across the Atlantic, I intend letting you all know! :D
-
Hey Bean,
Thanks for explaining this ... can't believe I let your experiences slip from my mind. I think you're being extremely brave here, actually. Very. I suddenly understand the red sirens in your brain. I want to offer this, too -- it is very much easier for me to work on my unfinished childhood business here on this board with certain issues than it would be face to face. There have been ftf times when I have responded to being presented with opinions such as who's good/bad, right/wrong, saved/unsaved with serious panic attacks. And I do understand the teeth in the smile. (Now, I seem to be at a place where I don't panic anymore, so I'm engaging the question in a new way when it appears. But I was damaged by it all. Now, pretty healed from that one, and just looking for the present.)
I am horribly sorry that you've been the victim of violence. I have not (childhood brother-bullying excepted). I do not know how that changes a person. But given how much I was screwed up by plain old bullying I can't imagine who I'd be if there had been violence. If you want to talk about it, I would be glad to listen. (But don't if it re-traumatizes you, Bean. I'm so sorry you experienced that, all of it.)
Ms. Portia,
Did you mean "I am a hurt person and therefore dangerous sometimes" in the metaphorical sense? Or put another way, in what exact way have you ever been dangerous? (I'm trying to picture a pistol-packing' Portia, and it's just not computing...)
I persuaded my boss to let me work at home this morning. Ummm...I fell back asleep.
BAD Hops! Bad, bad!
Hops
-
Hiya Hops must dash but I will answer that one more fully later. Yes I've been 'dangerous' to myself and others...but not that much on the big scale. Just enough for me to scare myself. I had to face that one, thank goodness. Faced it, owned up to it, and the 'need' to do it went away. Dangerous no more. That was Jac's thread yes? Just checking I'm not going bananas. For a change :D Naughty Hops 8) I bet you'll do twice as much at home as you would get done at work. It happens!
-
I'm sorry I disappointed you, Bean.
I do have "blank brain" moments.
I don't mean to dominate the board when I post a lot.
It's an important space for me as I'm fairly isolated right now and have a lot I'm worrying about.
I have always figured there's room for the more talkative as well as the quiet...the space seems to expand to fit the energy people have for it. I have a lot at times, other times I'm too tired to be really active.
I certainly should not forget essential things about what people experience here. I have other memory issues that recur in my life, so it wasn't just here, and wasn't intentional.
Anyway, I'm embarrassed. Especially about being thought of as a gullible June Cleaver voice hog!
Hops
-
What Hops said about the Shiites and Sunnis and other Faiths of the world that are the one only true believer's way it got me thinking.
If they the true believers can get along why can't we.I ask is it by simple accident RM is here on a board of the voiceless ?
Rm you have returned with a different softer voice.Can we trust your softer voice?
Of course I did see behaviors Laura that were not acceptable.
RM you did call bean a N over and over and would not let it go when clearly bean wanted you to.
The question is how to live without fear, do we risk it?
Moonlight
-
Bean, I’m sorry for upsetting you in PM. I wish you’d asked me what I was talking about. I wish I knew about it then. If I upset you again, please tell me then I have a chance to clarify or apologise at the time. Apologies also for being a control-freak re getting you talking to RM.
Sugarre, please take no notice of me. Sorry if I stopped you speaking. It’s not okay to do what I did.
-
Bean just call me 'fixer' when/if (more likely 'when') i do it okay? please? Well if you want to. :D
i don't feel alienated at all. Good going with that fear factor 8) feel good?
-
Thanks, Bean. I like you too.
Back when I was in support groups, one thing we went by was when a person took a turn to share what was going on, if they did not want advice, they would mention that up front...even if they just didn't want it from a particular person. That was a good thing, because without that, the listeners would be forced to guess whether it was okay to speak.
I think what I'd like to do for a while is stop commenting on your posts--give you a break from my voice and hopefully relieve your discomfort about weirdness. (I hope I don't go brain-foggy and forget, but if I do pipe up and it's not comfortable for you, please feel free to ask me not to. I care about your comfort level here.) Meanwhile, if you ever want to know what I think, just ask.
I will keep posting and opinionating in general though, unless someone has the same issue and would like me to refrain. Participating here is one of my major sources of strength right now.
I'll give more thought to why I want to fix things. I think part of it is my nature...I play a role in some situations (such as church) as a facilitator/mediator. The flip side, is I'm sure I do it sometimes because conflict makes me anxious. I feel strong distress when people are at odds--not a great deal of detachment, unfortunately. I think I'm afraid sometimes that the whole thing will go poof. (That's not rational, but I think that might be why I overdo "helping" sometimes.)
I hope you and anyone else will feel free to tell me, Hops, don't need help right now.
Thanks,
Hops