Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: anony123 on May 23, 2006, 11:00:05 PM
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I have had an ' On again, Off again' relationship with a '40 something woman for 6 months . She comes from an Alcoholic childhood where her Dad drank, beat up her Mom and had affairs .She Married a "handsome powerful man" who also drank and had affairs and 10 years and three kids later he left her.She describes her marriage as "in turmoil from day one.We broke up every three months and he came back when he missed me."
My relationship with her is always "on edge" we have had 4 bust-ups in 6 months and now she says that she wants to just "be friends" after seeing a Therapist twice.She became real 'bitchy' after seeing this T. This was a huge switch in mood because she is a "China Doll" type -"Princess Perfect -all sweetness and light" !
I am usually the one who "retreats" into my cave after an argument and then she calls me a week or two later and we make up. She says that she feels rejected when I retreat.
She called me a week ago when we were separated and said that she regards herself now as 'single'.
She also called me Saturday morning to meet and talk . We went to our regular "break-up ,make-up coffee shop". We chatted for a little time and then she said that she would prefer that we talk more privately. I took her to my place, made some lunch and went into my bedroom .SHe explained again that she wanted only a friendship in the future ..Slowly we slipped into massaging and then 3 hours of sex. At about 5 pm she said that she needed to go home to fix dinner for her son ,and I asked her if she would like to go for coffee at a local club later at 8pm. She paused and looked at me and said thoughtfully," Well, I guess that coffee is within the boundaries of FRIENDSHIP !" I was speechless after what we had just done .She looked quite serious .
Anyways we went out for coffee at 8 and then some more clubbing and had a really wonderful night out. We spoke the next day by phone a few times and she spoke as if she wanted me to take her dancing - I had other plans.. I am confused about what this woman is saying and doing .Her behavior seems to be inconsistent with her stated wishes . Is she just jerking me around and playing with my head ? DO I walk away . I am about done with her unfathomable actions .However I am powerfully attracted to her and that bothers me too.
What do you ladies think?
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I think you are being played for the fool. She will continue to use you as long as you allow her. She sounds like a highly irresponsible woman (Where are the kids in all this? What kind of life are they having?).
Beth
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Welcome Anony123,
That powerful sex could deafen you to your inner voice that's screaming FIRE! GRAB THE PUPPY AND GET OUT!
You can have happy great chemistry with another woman.
You can never have a happy shared life with this one.
Hopalong
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Hi A:
I am confused about what this woman is saying and doing .Her behavior seems to be inconsistent with her stated wishes .
Who wouldn't be? Your brain is giving you the correct message: confusion.
That's a good thing. Now all you have to do is listen to it. 8)
I am powerfully attracted to her and that bothers me too.
What bothers you about being so powerfully attracted to her?
Could you elaborate further?
Welcome here, by the way.
:D Sela
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Hopalong, why do you say that I can never have a happy life with this woman (I probably agree, but I would like your opinion)
Sela, I am bothered by my attraction because it is so addictive. In many ways I wish that I could just walk away and never see her again, but I feel powerless in her company (never happened to me before in 30years of adulthood).
She is so pretty and so "sweet" - men are drawn to her becaause she is a "child/woman".
I really would like to know why she engaged in 3 hours of sex right after telling me that she wanted only a "friendship". Any guesses are welcome ladies.Does she just want to keep me on the 'backburner' ? If I wanted to breakup with a woman I would do it in the coffee shop ,not in her bed !! I just do not get her. But this type of behavior is not unusual for her. Endless inconsistencies and contradictions . Crazy stuff.
Oh,BTW she still shares a house with her ExB/F . They bought the place five years ago when they were intending to get married . He and she broke up three years ago and he sleeps in a rear room. Now he is the live remains of her previous disasterous past.
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Anon,
All I can do is say what it would be like for me. If I'd made love to someone for three hours and he briskly informed me that was all about FRIENDSHIP, when what I really want is a long-term love, I'd be outta there.
Well, not true. In times past, I'd-a been stuck on him like a barnacle, waiting for him to reciprocate my loyalty. You see, one day he would wake up and not be selfish and manipultive. Except, oops, that wasn't just behavior, it's who he was. She made me think of the childlike sexuality of a Melanie Griffith or Marilyn Monroe...that breathy voice. Dunno if your ladyfriend is like that, anyway.
I think her behavior is who she is. And if you want to live with who she is, you can exhaust yourself wooing and screwing (pardon my French but it rhymes). And like any 4-course meal, you'll wake up satiated one day, stagger to the kitchen, and realize that you've been left with the mess.
I'm not awake enough to write good images. I understand the appeal of great sex. In my life, more than once I have had the best sex with the worst people. I've now decided that I would gladly accept warmer, less spectacular but loving sex with a good man, a steady-hearted partner...and count myself lucky I didn't get fooled by the fireworks. Had too many blow up in my face, and this woman sounds like the female version of my various trainwrecks.
So that's why. Voice of experience.
Hope it helps,
Hops
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Anony,
I assume we are still talking about the same woman that you discussed on the other thread.
You are wondering how she can have mind-blowing sex with you and then consider you just a friend. I would say that it is because she is incapable of sharing real intimacy, and as long as she considers you "unavailable" as a love partner, she can be sexually intimate with you.
I agree that some therapy would benefit you to help find out why you are so attracted to someone like this.
Brigid
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Hi Anony,
You asked what the ladies thought. I hope their feedback is helping. Would you like to hear what another male here thinks?
Anansi
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Hi again Anony: (better not use "A" as there are more than one now........welcome to you too Anansi):
Sela, I am bothered by my attraction because it is so addictive. In many ways I wish that I could just walk away and never see her again, but I feel powerless in her company (never happened to me before in 30years of adulthood).
Thanks for answering that question. Ok. Here's my take.
Addictive? Sends out a big, large, huge red flag and loud sirens start going off in my head when I read that.
You feel addicted? Powerless?
Whoa!! Turn Silver around and head for the hills fast!! Get support. Get a therapist. Join a anaon-somethingorother group. Whatever it takes........just get away from her!!
Just get going and go fast and don't look back.
Don't even be friends. Seriously.
You don't want to be addicted to anyone......do you?
Powerless? In the relationship? You can live with that?
I say: High tail it!
:D Sela
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This forum and your replies are helping me greatly.
To ANANSI, yes please, another male's take on this would be great . Please go slowly though . I am absorbing all this real slowly .
To Brigid -I am a little confused by your post and the "unavailable" comment.
We have been "love partners" and therefor "available" for over 5 months (give or take a few separations). Maybe she creates drama and turmoil to CREATE distance and prevent true intimacy.
She is never really active and vigorous in any activity except at the height to HER sexual passion. Her whole demeanor is passive and "underinvolved" (my word). She has a huge expectation that the 'man' will do most of the work and she then acts like a passive recipient. Maybe this strategy puts her in the 'princess' position so that if stuff goes wrong is becomes HIS fault because she did not actively DO anything.
( I love this statement of hers - " It is the mans job to shield,protect and provide for me AND to take off my bra. !")_
More please ?
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anony,
To Brigid -I am a little confused by your post and the "unavailable" comment.
I will explain by using my own experience with this very thing. My xnh and I were married for over 23 years. During our courtship (technically I was still unavailable), our sex life was very active. After we got married and I became very available, our sex life died a slow and painful death. When he told me very suddenly nearly 3 years ago that he was leaving our marriage because he had found someone else, I begged him to go to counselling--which he agreed to for 6 weeks. During that time he quite suddenly became very interested in me sexually. I thought it was because he was having second thoughts, but when he left anyway (also very suddenly), my therapist explained that the sexual interest existed because he once again saw me as unavailable and therefore sexually interesting. The woman he left me for was and still is married to someone else--also unavailable. Some people can only be intimate with those who are unavailable. This can also take the form of pornography (also an issue with my ex), prostitutes, etc. The unavailability makes it impossible to form a truly intimate relationship. N's are incapable of intimacy.
I hope that helps to explain what I meant.
Brigid
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Hi Anony,
You have the focus on her.
I'd rather turn it gently back to you:
I am bothered by my attraction because it is so addictive
I don't want to comment more on her because I think that will feed your addiction.
But help you look at your craving for this unhealthy attachment that is harming you? Sure.
If you look at the place in your mind (apart from sex) where you feel most connected to her, what feelings arise? If you take that same feeling and trace it back through the years...what memories come up?
That's where your recovery would begin, I think. I do think it would help you a lot to also talk to a wise, experienced therapist about this. I think it can be massively destructive to your life and wellbeing (having been there...)
best,
Hopalong
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Hopalong, the feeling that she triggers in me most (outside the sexual) is that she 'listens' to me.However what I thought was true listening on her part has narrow limits. She stops listening when she hears something from me that causes even mild discomfort in her. We talk at an intellectual and detached level to avoid stepping on her sensitivities (and possibly mine too).Many time I bite my tongue. Hiowever, she is, many times unaware of the impact that her statements make on me.
I guess that being 'heard and really understood ' are what attracts me to her BUT I am deluding myself because my thoughts feelings and wishes only penetrate IF they suit her.
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I am deluding myself
GOOD FOR YOU.
That honesty is a step toward health.
It's evidence that a part of you knows the direction you want your life to go.
Trust it. Get help strengthening your respect for your inner voice if you need to.
If you do, don't be ashamed of the need for help for one second.
Addiction is a powerful thing...but having a good life is worth all the discomfort of beating it.
(Plus, once you get started, it's actually more exciting and creative to get healthy than it
was to waste your precious life in toxic relationships. Way more.)
Hopalong
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Hi anony123,
I'm a guy and here's my perspective.
She is playing head games with you, perhaps not even knowingly. People who play head games never stop.
If you're looking for more than being made to jump through hoops you ought to look elsewhere.
mud
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This woman is endlessly "unavailable" in many ways , Have you guys ever been hugely attracted to someone who is just not really' in' the relationship. She has one foot in and one foot "out the door' and I find myself thinking of ways to entice her or manipulate her into a deeper involvement . That is draining and it does not seem to work,. There is no "easy flow" here.
She feels like she is always in short supply . Am I making sense . Maybe the unavailability of her and her emotions are fueling my chase . She thrives on my 'attention'(lots of loving emails and texts and dates) she seems to crave it and her need for male attention is bottomless. When she and I have an argument she turns to the company of other guys and then lets me know that she has been pursued by them.
I need a rest.
Jack
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Heal a past hurt ? Maybe !
My mother was emotionally superficial. She was a dependent personality who was my father's 'employee' in many ways. I never heard "I love you" from either parent.MY acceptance and approval from them was highly conditional upon my 'performance' in many aspects -sports, academic . BUt I never quite 'earned 'their love . My best was never good enough. MY father kept moving the finish line. And my mother just cooked more food and saved our precious pennies at the check-out. She still buys everything 'on sale'..
I had two younger bros and a sis. MY father was a tyrant and a bully who ran the home like a business. And my mother just cooked and cleaned --etc. This is getting a tad painful.
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It is painful to read, too, Jack. I'm sorry.
But it is brave of you and necessary.
Here's what strikes me:
I never quite 'earned 'their love . My best was never good enough.
Do you see a connection between this and desperation in a romantic relationship?
How desperate is a child within you who has never been loved?
Hopalong
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I have had many relationships with women over the past 30 years and I have NEVER felt this kind of anxiety and uncertainty. There is something about her that gets me crazy weird shaky .It may be made worse by her unavailability. This will take a while to unravel.
Thanks for being there with me.
Jack (kinda sad )
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Jack,
As difficult as it is to think and talk about, the relationship that you needed to have with your parents, but didn't, is at the root of why you have chosen a woman like this.
Like Bean said, it takes a lot of therapy to work through that pain and heal it. I spent over 2 years after my ex left with a wonderful therapist who got me to where I am today. It took nearly a year in therapy for me to get beyond blaming my ex for all of it and finally admitting and working through the legacy of pain my parents left me with. My parents are both dead now, but my childhood sounds just like yours and it is hard to admit that your parents never loved you or cared about you.
But you can work through it if you really want to and you can go on to find a relationship that will bring you happiness and great love. At nearly 56, I am in that place now and it is wonderful. There is still pain to work through and still trust to build, but it gets better and I get better. But the key is, and my therapist made this very clear to me--in order to find a healthy, available partner, you must first be healthy and available yourself.
The best advice I can give is to get yourself healthy. Start healing those deep wounds that have been created by your family of origin. You would then see what those of us who are reading your writings can see--you have chosen an unhealthy relationship for a reason. You want to fix her to be someone who loves you--the same as you want to fix your parents to be people who love you. You need to find someone who is not a fixer-upper. You need a confident, healthy, independent woman who will walk next to you--not in front or behind.
Hugs,
Brigid
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Ok thanks Brigid,So I have chosen this woman as a substitute parent in order to "re-work' my childhood .In order for me to do that, it follows that she needs to have at least some of the characterisics of my parents. Then I go to work to remodel her into the loving parent that I never had? Sounds kinda weird but credible at the same time.
I am thinking that there must also be some reason why I stay with her even after a lot of her behavior is disturbing to me. SHe must have something that I really want really badly!
Jack(getting wiser)
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Jack,
I'm glad to see that you are starting to think more clearly on this. You have not mentioned any previous relationships or if you have ever been married (I think I read that you are in your 40's--sorry if I got that wrong), but I'm guessing that this is not the first unhealthy relationship you have had. My life was paved with fixer-uppers, married and divorced two of them, and I found the good guys boring.
Then I go to work to remodel her into the loving parent that I never had?
Basically, yes. In therapy, I learned that since I could never fix my father to be what I needed and wanted, I sought to find a partner whom I could remodel. Rule one: never enter a relationship thinking you can change someone to be something they cannot or do not want to be.
I am thinking that there must also be some reason why I stay with her even after a lot of her behavior is disturbing to me.
Yes. You think if you just try a little harder, be more of what she wants and twist yourself into someone that you no longer recognize, that she will then want and love you. Rule two: pay attention to the red flags which are waving in a relationship. Listen to your gut and don't hang around thinking things will get better.
SHe must have something that I really want really badly!
Yes. I would guess from what I have read, that you are confusing sexual intimacy with real emotional intimacy. There is a huge difference. Sex can only keep you connected superfically. In order to have a true relationship, the connection must run much deeper--and BOTH ways.
Jack, keep reading and writing. You are starting to get it.
Brigid
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I am having trouble figuring ouit what I am trying to heal Brigid. There was no physical abuse or alcohol abuse or addictions as suchin my early life.
I do however have a strong desire in relationships to "be heard" and to be taken seriously to the point where I see the other person be willing to change some(small) part of their behavior to accomodate the health of our relationship. Also,if I heard another person say,"I know how you feel" then that would make my day ! As child I had a voice but it was NOT welcome. My opinions and thought and wishes were irritating to my parents who only regarded THEIR thoughts and wishes as being worthwhile.
So now I am in a relationship with a self-centered ,and somewhat N lady who is living exclusively for herself but acting sometimes/ pretending that she loves me. Any connection there ?
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Jack,
You say this:
I am having trouble figuring ouit what I am trying to heal Brigid. There was no physical abuse or alcohol abuse or addictions as suchin my early life.
But then you say this:
As child I had a voice but it was NOT welcome. My opinions and thought and wishes were irritating to my parents who only regarded THEIR thoughts and wishes as being worthwhile.
I would say that many of the folks on this site who were raised by n parents, also did not experience physical abuse or addictions. Psychologists will tell you that the effects of mental/emotional abuse are much more devastating and long-lasting than that of physical abuse. My n father was an alcoholic, but the drinking did not make him an n--it was only an ugly side effect.
I think if you read the thread on "Hugs" you will see how painful it was for those of us who were not touched as children and how that pain manifested itself in the future.
I will once again say that some time with a good therapist to help you sort this out properly will be time well spent.
Hugs,
Brigid
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Wow, I'm in awe at the wisdom (painfully acquired I'm sure) expressed here. And I agree with every word of it. Anansi
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anony,
I will start by saying that I realize I am "sticking my neck out" here in saying this...but, there is a reason that sex was reserved for marriage. It creates soul-ties to another person, which definitely do exert a measure of control, as you stated about feeling "powerless." Sex is just one way a somatic narcissist uses to control another person.
In my view of this, the lady is wrong for using you and then only calling you "friend." That is extremely misleading. Your part in this, however, is in the allowing her to have your body in the first place. I am a bit old-fashioned and simple when it comes to some things, and, in this case, I'd like to introduce you to a friend of mine...his name is "NO" That word, when applied and stuck to, goes a long way in self-protection and warding off unwanted affections.
She's using her and you are letting her use you. A codependency group for you might be very helpful in this. I still use my codep book often as well. The relationship is not a healthy one but a very toxic one.
Sorry if I'm being too blunt. When it comes to N's I not only know what I'm talking about from experience, but I have very little tolerance of their abusing others, as well as the others continually opening the door and saying "come on in to abuse me and then devalue and discard me when you're done." We, as the victims have a responsiblity to also protect ourselves.
~RM
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I wanted to add that I am in the exact same kind of relationship with an N
And i know why. I had no love or voice in my family I was raised by N parents and my father was abusive why my Mother stood by and did nothing
I am always chasing love by someone who cannot give it If he says thank you or even notices i am alive it makes my day (well it did) I am in the working process of getting OUT of the relationship But getting away from an N is not easy
They keep drawing you back even when you know that its going know where but down a sink hole
N's can not love they can only PRETEND to love This was a hard concept for me to get . How can you "pretend" love?
I also think on a deeper level I do feel very sorry for him (as did my parents) I know he cannot help it and that he is ill He really is like a blustering child. He can not hurt me so much anymore because i am more aware of what is going on. But it is toxic and it is unhealthy and it is sad to love osmeone who cannot give you love and does not know how.
Ask yourself (as i did) why are you giving love to someone who cannot give it back?
blue
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Very well put RM.
mud
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Having seen and done it all, I gotta agree with you, REally me. Although my opinion may have come from a completely different pathway, I would imagine.......I see this to be true.
We think we can use it carefully, and without the "other" types of connection....(I used to think so) but I have yet to see that work for me in my life.
Sex is powerful stuff. Not to be used lightly. Without the "soul connection"...(or so we think!) it can be toxic.
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Hi Jack,
imho, brave of you here to just go at it, while you're still neck-deep with this woman.
Just read this thread all in one sitting, and there's one line of yours that really stuck out for me:
I am thinking that there must also be some reason why I stay with her even after a lot of her behavior is disturbing to me. SHe must have something that I really want really badly!
One possibility I've seen others point out here (and it could be a combination of many factors, or nothing anyone's considered yet) is that you're reactively, subconscious vs. conscious, repeating a familiar romantic relationship pattern you grew up with, but throwing all your emotional energy into empowering a different and better result? A subconscious whack at closure around something deep in your core. What do you think she has that you can't do without? Your take would be the most important one here.
Looking in the mirror, had a string of baddish boys before my H. without ever noticing what they had in common. None of them really hurt me, and I wasn't capable of much self-reflection, so I didn't much notice the pattern. My H. is the 1st man I was attracted to you for the sheer beauty of his spirit. In retrospect, I had grown just enough to be drawn to goodness in a way I'm still humbled by.
If you're still figuring out what you're trying to heal, maybe that'd be a lot to take on with so much energy still in this relationship?
Best,
LoH
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hi bean
yes i have a N brother,Niece and my grandmother are all N's (on my Mom's side)
My brother doesn't speak with anyone much (I have three brothers) but we kind of keep in touch with him ,here and there He is always very depressed and almost impossble to deal with
My Dad passed away and my Mom is much worse. I really do not see her much. I do call heron the phone and keep it very light and simple
i get migraines when i go to her place. It isn't healthy for me
I know now what went on in my early years I always knew there was an illness,i didn't have a name for it. I was lucky as i never really thought that the insanity had anything to do with me (I knew this at 6) My mom always acted like she was three and my dad was a crazy in- raged lunatic most of the time (after a rage he would try to buy us stuff to say sorry)
But for me it is really in the past I have no anger toward my parents I truly feel sorry for them
My problem is that i am too codependent (but strangely enough very independent as well ) I do not believe in "people" which is sad. I see them as non caring and only interested in their own program I have little trust and have always taken care of myself When i did ask for help I was always denied so i have pretty much realized that in this life you do look after yourself with no outside help I am very spiritual (not religious) and this has helped me through many hard times. I have come full circle as meeting my N boy freind is what made me realize the issues my family had.I find that unstable people are attracted to me (and i guess me to them) I probabaly feel safe with them as it was the way i was raised
blue