Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Sela on May 25, 2006, 09:25:02 PM
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I pray for more every single night. I'll never have enough.
Why put it on Jac's shoulders? (sorry about that Jac. I'm opening a new thread so your's can carry on).
Stormy, if you feel like talking to me, I'll look back here. I'm being patient. I know there are lot's of reasons for not replying and I'll try not to assume. Cut and paste at will, if need be. I want to understand.
Hope you're ok.
I really am sorry for every way I've upset you and for what I've said that caused you distress and any other stupid thing I've done.
I don't want to believe that you intended to wound me deeply and I'll stop feeling sorry for myself now and listen.
Sela
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Sela,
Not sure what happened, but you seem a bit sad sitting here all alone so here is a verbal hug for you. Hope you are feeling better soon.
ANewSheriff
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(((((((((((Sela))))))))))))))
I'm not sure what's going on chick, but you sound down hon. If you need to chat, please feel free to post/PM....
Take care
H&H xx
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((((((ANS, H&H))))))
Thankyou for your caring hearts and cyber hugs.
I'm ok now. See "Giving empathy" thread for what happened.
Sela
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(((((((((((((Sela & Storm))))))))))))) wishing you a better day. seasons
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(((((((((((((((((((((Sela))))))))))))))))))))))))
((((((((((((((((((((Storm)))))))))))))))))))))))
I understood Sela's mistake and Storm's response.
One place, for me, escalated it. That was the "global" stuff...do you do this in the rest of your life, etc? Those lines would've wounded me. I think if one's been emotionally abused, self-confidence is shaky, so when someone suddenly paints your general behavior in a caustic way...your self-image can do a tailspin. Painful.
Specific objection usually can be worked with, global negatives stop effective communication.
(I also think it's a very common place to go when one is angry or hurt. I've done it, hardly anybody I know has not done it. We're just getting into such refined and conscious commmunicaton here that I thought I'd mention it. Hope it's useful.)
love to bothayouse,
Hops
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Sela,
I admire your sheer guts for saying what you've said and taking the responsibility to open a new thread. That seems to me like really grabbing the bull by the horns and I like it, I respect that a lot.
Please give yourself a break and a big piece of praise (and chocolate if you like :D). I'm so glad to come back today and see this. Thank you for the :D I feel (even though I know it's my decison to feel it......ahhhh...you know what I mean, I think it's called being reciprocal!).
Storm,
hope you'll take my comments elsewhere in good spirit. I was getting a bit irked on Sela's behalf and well. Ha. You were out of line! Just a tad. i think. My opinion. No hard feelings? Hope not. None here.
Please take care both, P
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Thankyou Seasons, Hops for your big hugs and good wishes. I love those! I really do! :D
Thanks for your words Hops. I'm hoping Stormy will get here to talk, when she can. I'd like to comment but I think I'll wait and talk with Stormy first, if she's willing.
Portia, thankyou so much. I'm not so sure it's brave to open a new thread but I will gratefully accept your compliment about what I said. It was not easy for me. Especially when my emotions felt so overwhelming. I could easily have retreated into a dark hole. Been there, done that and yep....it takes guts to climb out and talk. For me it feels like that anyway. So thanks. 'Course you invited me out eh? By asking how I was doing? Thanks ((((P)))). I respect you for the risk you took too.
Oh chocolate!! I love it! :D :D Don't have any here. Dang! :( Been looking around for my Russel Stover no sugar added dark chocolate squares but they seem to have disappeared off the store shelves since Christmas. Do they sound awful? They're really yummy, imo. Also the 70% cocoa kind (can't remember the brand). Those I know where to get. Going......going.......gone.. :arrow: :arrow: :mrgreen:
(((((((chocolate hug to you all))))))))))
:D Sela
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Hi Sela & Storm
I've seen the other thread now and I think fair play to Sela for opening a new thread, but I also think fair play to Storm for her apology to Sela on the giving empathy thread.
IMHO I think it's very easy to misinterpret or mistake how something is intended to be over email/posts/PM etc, because we never see the facial expressions or hear the tone of the poster... it is only how we perceive what the other is saying/posting.
I feel that you both resolved it honestly and maturely.
((((((((((((((((((((((Sela)))))))))))))))))))))))) ((((((((((((((((((((((Storm)))))))))))))))))))))))))
H&H xx
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Thanks H&H, for all of your thoughts and that big hug.
I appreciate the time it took to read and think and post.
I'm not commenting because I'm waiting to speak with Stormy (hoping).
Thankyou, though, for bothering and for complimenting. ((((((((((H&H)))))))))). Just because.
Sela
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Sela & Stormy,
I've been here with the two of you for awhile now and I have great respect and admiration for both of you. I just wanted to say that I now respect and admire how you have worked through this misunderstanding/dispute and hope the seas are peaceful once again.
Some days we just don't read, see, hear, say, or think what we want or mean to. So many things can play into that and as H & H said, without the eyes, body language and facial expressions to read along with the words, things can be misinterpreted or misunderstood. But offering and accepting apologies takes effort and grace--so hats off to you both.
Hugs,
Brigid
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Hi Sela
Sorry to be showing up so late. I need to blow off a little steam here, before I can talk sensibly, but it's not directed at you. Please bear with me, and then I'll settle down and talk about what I wanted to talk about...
I spent a lot of yesterday at a doctor's office &C with a little surprise that woke me up at 4 a.m. and made me think I had a perforating ulcer or incipient peritonitis. I had eaten homemade salmon chowder the night before and visions of fishbones piercing my insides were with me for hours afer I woke up hurting unexpectedly.
What I posted to you had been written and saved previously. I went to bed to sleep on it, but didn't get much sleep.
I can't believe I even got on line yesterday morning, utterly utterly insane thing to do, but I also changed the bed and did laundry and mopped the kitchen floor while waiting for my doctor's office to open. And took my cat to the vet to be boarded, in case I ended up going right into hospital once they took a look at me. I was putting my affairs in order, I guess, just in case, and wanted to say my piece to you if it was the last thing I did, because I was afraid it might be. Total madness. I have been told that pregnant women do thiings like that when labor starts, sometimes, and for the first time in my life I see how it could happen.
When I found out it was just a regular garden variety duodenal ulcer instead [now of all times, after all the things I've been dealing with for years? Life makes no sense] I filled my prescriptions and went on in to work, where I apologized for being out, explained what was going on, then dealt with a serious problem that kept me working through any chance of a break for lunch... so I didn't check the board. I got my cat [the vet was very understanding] and came home, kept an appointment, and was exhausted since I'd gotten about 3 hours of sleep, so I went to bed without checking in.
This morning I thought I really should get to the board, and I'm glad I did. I got to work late because I couldn't bear to leave you hanging and wanted to post to you before I left for the day. No blame, good lord no blame to you for that, when I saw your post I couldn't leave until I made sure you knew I'd seen it, and Monday is a holiday here, nobody was pushing things at work.
anyway, I just got home and online about maybe 20 minutes ago... it takes awhile to type and edit.
I really did not want to talk about the health related event here, because I was not experiencing anything significant until the early a.m. surprise, and I really, truly don't want to sound like I'm playing for sympathy. I was dealing with it, I was trying to keep mum, would have kept it to myself until much later.
Unfortunately, this evening I came home and logged on and discovered some - in the circs - terribly inappropriate interference/pressure in PM land, from an unnamed well-meaning third party, along the lines of it taking me too long to get back to you - to suit them.
This was a major boundary violation and under the circs it was about the worst possible thing the person involved could have done. The individual was well-intentioned towards you, which is utterly admirable, but they took something upon themselves with respect to me that was wholly inappropriate, and given what was going on with me, it was a really really really really really really really bad idea.
OK, that's out and done with. Now I have something to resolve with someone else, and I intend to do that, but when I feel up to it. Don't feel badly about any of this because you caused none of it, and I would never have said a word about it till much later but for the backstage thing I ran into first thing here tonite.
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breathe breathe breathe breathe
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What I intended to start out with here was an apology. I am very very sorry about having taken off on you like I did, especially with respect to the way I upbraided you regarding how you might behave with others out in the real world. I was utterly out of line there, Sela, and I thought about it off and on the entire day today... yesterday my brains were pretty much mush, but when I looked at my own words again this morning I was very sorry.
two wrongs don't make a right, two mistakes don't usually correct one another. thank you for your response. My feeling lousy does not excuse my posting to you in the terms I did. there were things that did need to be addressed, but I'm really sorry I went to extremes. Again, the physical thing is no excuse. It's just a large - the largest - part of the reason I didn't get in touch sooner.
I'd better post this now, because I don't want to keep you hanging any longer than you already have been. Not sure how long I'll be on, but I'll stay around for a little while anyway.
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Hi Stormy:
Been on the phone.....trying to get off for the last hour or more. My one old aunt left. A sweet lady but does she like to yak? :D
Gee.....sounds like a pretty good excuse to me. Sorry for all that pain. Peritonitis? Ulcer? Fish bones? Owwwwch!!
wanted to say my piece to you if it was the last thing I did, because I was afraid it might be.
Hahahahahaha! Famous last words eh? :D It wasn't funny then but it does seem a bit comical now.
Couldn't you think of anything better.....like........pleeeeeeeeeeeez shut up and pray for my poor fish bone jabbed perforated peritonitic ulcerated soul?
I have been told that pregnant women do thiings like that when labor starts, sometimes,
I did that. Every swear word I knew...and every one I didn't even know I knew.....all came out in one long winded sentence.... :shock:.....at which point I clamped my hand over my mouth......bug eyed.....and purple.
Everyone in the room laughed and the doc said: "Don't worry. We've heard worse".
:shock: :shock:
He was serious.
I also changed the bed and did laundry and mopped the kitchen floor
Gee, if I'da known......you coulda jipped over here to wash my living room ceiling too. It's got those nice plaster swirls in it!! 8) 8)
You nutbar!! Were you trying to kill yourself? There are much less painful ways, so I hear. Like someone once suggested I do.......boil myself in acid. Nice person. Must've had a hernia or something.
This morning I thought I really should get to the board, and I'm glad I did. I got to work late because I couldn't bear to leave you hanging...
For crying out loud Stormy, I keep telling you no worries about not posting. There are oodles of good reasons not to. I do understand that. I have no life so I can check in here at will. Jeepers. Did you take a pay cut too?
:D :D :D I'm just happy you're alive and not full of fish bones and we're ok.
We're ok Storm. Ok? No more worrying. And by the way.......you're not pregnant. That must be a relief eh?
truly don't want to sound like I'm playing for sympathy
You don't sound like that at all. Don't worry.
terribly inappropriate interference/pressure in PM land, from an unnamed well-meaning third party, along the lines of it taking me too long to get back to you - to suit them.
Really? That person should also pray, every nite, for patience. It really does help. :D
Or, they could get rid of their life, like me, and then there would be no pressure at all. They could peak in, some days at will. I did fib. Not all days are like that for me but today was.....so truly. It doesn't matter Storm. And I don't know what to say about the pm'er.
it was a really really really really really really really bad idea.
Am I to assume there might be more apologies coming to other parties? Poor Storm. It sounds like you have had the worst of a bad thing. I'm sorry. I'm just glad you're still kickin'!!
Now I have something to resolve with someone else
Maybe the person will read here and post to you, under some other name even, and things will work out. I hope so. Would you consider forgiving Stormy Pm'er? She was......mad with pain and frustration and bad circumstances and not reacting her best. Whaddya say?
especially with respect to the way I upbraided you regarding how you might behave with others out in the real world. I was utterly out of line there, Sela, and I thought about it off and on the entire day today
You're wholley forgiven Stormy. Honestly. No hard feelings at all. What hurt me...at the time...was that it was you.....my friend Stormy......thinking I was a liar.....thinking I was being mean....believing stuff about me that I didn't think was true. I do wonder, seriously, if I do stuff that hurts people and I was serious over on that other thread when I said I'd like to know from anyone I have done that to. I sure don't want to do that and the only way I can fix it is if I know about it. I feel strong enough to hear it now too.....so let me know please.
What I wanted to say is that I feel I did do something very wrong by especially....rallying others, which is something I don't think I've ever done toward someone and I've even had it done to me (waaaaaay back) and I should know better. I did misunderstand about your opinion and you attacked my character. That's what hurt me most, I think.
I do absolutely forgive you for that Storm and I hope it helps to know how important you are to me and that's why it hurt for you to think/say all that about/to me. If it were a complete stranger....I might have laughed. Thought the person was really out to lunch. But I respect your opinion and didn't even know, until this happened, how much.
two wrongs don't make a right, two mistakes don't usually correct one another. thank you for your response.
I agree and thankyou for yours too Storm. I feel much better now. :D I appreciate you. You did your best to correct any wrong.
Do you feel better? How are you now? Is the pain gone? Are the meds working? You better get some rest and some nourishment into you.
(((((((((((Stormy's sore tummy)))))))))))
No need to post back until you feel like it. Ok?
:D Sela
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Thanks Sela. I was kind of hanging around hoping you'd post so I'd know you'd seen and things were OK.
Forgiven, entirely, I promise.
Also forgiven the PMer, they were doing what they did from the best of motives, but they weren't thinking about what might have been keeping me away. Which, if they were going to PM me, they should have done at least a little bit.
I did, um, tell them to go boil their head, sort of, so I have a little bit of fencemending to do there. :oops:
Please don't worry about that any more, the person was sincerely concerned for you and really, it's nice to have someone in your corner like that... Since I told them what had happened to me to justify the head-boiling [sort of] recommendation, I figured I'd better fess up out here too. I really wanted to not talk about the medical thing at all, it's a diversion from the important stuff here.
I am now going to go get some sleep, I hope. Still sore, tumwise, but no longer hot jabs. I wouldn't wish this on anyone. How on earth has Moon lived with it for years as she has?
Take care, Sela. I'm sorry I thought badly of you and spoke harshly to you, and I'm very glad we're sorting it out.
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Aw Storm:
it's a diversion from the important stuff here.
It is important stuff. Your health is the most important stuff. I'm so glad you're ok and we're ok.
Yes. I meant to say thanks, too, to that secret pm'er.....for their concern for me. I was trying to make Stormy smile there. Did you smile Storm? Then I forgot to say thanks.
Thanks pm'er, whoever you are.
Take care, Sela. I'm sorry I thought badly of you and spoke harshly to you, and I'm very glad we're sorting it out.
Apollogy accepted in full Storm. I'm very glad too. Please take a nice long nap and have a good feed of boneless chicken soup tomorrow.
Nightie night. Hope you're all better real soon Storm. (((((extra hug for still sore tum)))))
:D Sela
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Hi Sela
Ugh, this is going to be messy, I am sorry in advance.
You may actually want to tell the person who PM'd me to go boil their head, too.
I looked back at the PMs I received, and on second reading I suddenly realized that one of them contained some statements that - it was implied - came from PMs between this person and yourself.
These were things said in confidence, things said in pain, things that I understand completely in context, things that I do not hold against anyone, but that I really should never have seen. Things - it was implied in the PM - that were PM'd by you, to this person, regarding me.
In other words, if in fact these statements were taken from PMs you exchanged with someone else, then that person almost certainly violated your confidence in sending them to me.
I'm tiptoeing around here, because this is a mine field, and I'm really sorry. I went to bed, and couldn't sleep, kept thinking how I'd feel if someone lifted my private heart cries and mailed them to the person against whom I was crying out privately.
I have done my share of private crying out, in my lifetime. No harm, no foul, I understand, I understand!. No certainty on my part, really, that these statements were really made by you - or that they might not have been 'creatively enhanced' before being sent to me. But even if they were verbatim quotes, I understand, and there's no problem about them where I'm concerned.
But I kept tossing and turning tonight and realized - I have to let you know about this. Damn, damn and damn.
Because we're out in public here, I will not say who sent me the PMs. I'm sure you don't confide in huge swaths of people here, certainly not about something like this, so you probably can make an educated guess who to check in with.
I'm sure their intentions were good, but God, Sela, you need to be able to open your heart to someone and know that what you have shared will stay safely where you left it.
I am so sorry.
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It was me.
I'm very sorry Storm to hear about your ulcer; I hope you can not worry or anything about what I have said or done and what it means. I'm here to tell the truth and I can do that. Okay? I'm sorry I put you in a position where you had to decide what to put on the board. Done now and that's okay with me. You did okay by me; I made mistakes. How are you doing?
Sela, I'm very sorry. I did send Storm some of your words on PM. I can't justify that. I won't try. That was just plain wrong and you're right, I need patience all right. And humility.
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Oh Stormy:
:( :( :( :( :( :( :(
What a position to put you in!! I'm sorry for whatever I said, if I said it, to whoever, which I really don't remember, so that must have been another time, another mode and as you say......
privately crying out and who knows if I might have said the complete opposite after that, if I said anything, which I truly can't think of. I've seen me say something derogatory about someone, in private, by pm, about someone, one day, and the next, or later, pm that I'm a complete idiot and where the heck do I get off thinking or saying such a thing. I hope not a word went to your heart, Stormy.
it was implied - came from PMs between this person and yourself.
Maybe this is mistaken? Maybe this could be clarrified? Maybe not? I don't know Stormy. I should feel paranoid and as if my trust has been violated but to be honest....I hate to jump the gun based on
implied and
if in fact these statements were taken from PMs you exchanged with someone else,
So I'm not gonna panic, ok?
I have done my share of private crying out, in my lifetime. No harm, no foul, I understand, I understand!.
Thankyou Stormy. Thankyou so much for this.
Because we're out in public here, I will not say who sent me the PMs
Ofcourse, I understand and agree.
I'm sure their intentions were good, but God, Sela, you need to be able to open your heart to someone and know that what you have shared will stay safely where you left it.
Absolutely. I feel very disappointed that someone would forward actual stuff I wrote in private or otherwise pass on their version or some other.....about you......to you.
That is a very serious violation of my trust.
Thankyou for alerting me Stormy.
I am so sorry.
So am I.
I hope with all my heart the person will pm me themselves and fess up. It takes courage but it will restore my faith in them, if they are honest about what they have done and are willing to face the consequences.
:( Sela
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That red warning came up telling me someone had posted ahead of me but I ignored it.
I figgered I could wait to read and not let whatever was said influence my post.
You P??
:( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :(
I did send Storm some of your words on PM. I can't justify that. I won't try.
It's honest and brave of you to admit this.
Why did you do it? What motivated you? What were you trying to achieve?
I need patience all right. And humility.
We all do.
I'm very sorry.
I believe you.
:cry:
Sela
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Portia, Sela -
This PM disclosure situation involved and affected me, but it isn't about me at this point. I just want to say to both of you, thank you and I mean it, for responding as you have - to my bit - I admire how you're talking to each other here too, but it's not my place to say that, it's intruding if I say one more word about it.
What is my place is to forgive, and I have, I have, and Sela, does it help that as I sit here, I remember my own heart cries, and how I've thought first one thing and then the opposite about a person so many times myself? Does it help that I can't even bring to mind the words that were shared with me, now?
I hope it does, because it's true, and Portia, I hope that is a relief to you too. I do understand you were acting from caring, and you didn't know why I was away for so long, and you wanted to do whatever it took to get things resolved because your friend was in pain.
Wishing you both only goodness, only light, with all of my heart.
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Thank you Storm, yes it does help.
Sela, I’m sorry.
Why did you do it?
I made lots of assumptions about what was ‘really’ going on. I made up a story in my head that didn’t fit ‘reality’ at all. And I acted on that story. I’m not saying I know what ‘reality’ is now either. I don’t know.
What motivated you?
Solving problems as I perceived them, as I assumed them to be.
What were you trying to achieve?
I wanted Storm to see how you were affected by her post to you. I wanted to tell her those things to help her respond to you. I assumed I knew what others felt and their motivations. I know none of those things.
Hope that makes sense.
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Hi Storm:
Thanks to you too. You have a big heart, I think.
does it help that as I sit here, I remember my own heart cries, and how I've thought first one thing and then the opposite about a person so many times myself? Does it help that I can't even bring to mind the words that were shared with me, now?
Yes it helps. It reminds me that we're all human and that we all make mistakes and that none of us is up on some high horse.....surely not me. I've done my share of sinning and I'm not proud of it. I cry out too, lot's of times, with toxic crap. It needs to come out. So do fears and weird thoughts and strange feelings and all kinds of stuff that gets churned around and around and might drive us nuts......if we don't just ......bleed........sometimes.
((((((((((((((((Portia)))))))))))))))))))
Your reasons matter to me. Your goals sound like they were not meant to hurt but to help. How can I possibly not forgive you? I'd have to be an idiot.
I'm not. Hahahaha! I can be dense. I've done stupid things too. I make mistakes. I make bad choices. I've said things I regret. Acted in ways that were downright wrong. And I'm still here.... :oops:....and lived through it.
I forgive you and I still trust you.
My first thought, as I was reading Storm's post (the one exposing this information), was that if it was you....you would come clean. You would own up. You would take responsibility. You would be honest.
You have and you are and I believe you meant well. No worries.
Ok?
I have to go now. Not sure if I'll get back on here today or not. Or tomorrow either. I might. I can't tell. It depends how much I get done around here. Pulling weeds. Shovelling dirt. Planting. While it isn't raining. My garden beckons.
Hope you're ok. I really hope you're ok.
I am. Truly.
:D Sela
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Whew! I don't know how much more weeding I can do today. My back is killing me.
Hi again Stormy:
I hope you're still reading here.
Something is really bugging me so I'm going to put it here and see if I can gain a better idea of what happened.
I'm having a harder time understanding your motives for tattling on Portia, than I am with her motvies for passing on bits of a private message to you. So I'm going to ask a bunch of questions and you can answer as you see fit, if you would please?
The way I see it.......I was feeling pretty good last night when I exited from here. You and I had worked things out and I felt good about that. Happy. :D
This morning I found your post above and it was very upsetting.
What was your motive for telling me this, after we had already worked out our disagreement?
Did you think it would help me to know what P did?
Did you think it was important to let the whole board know?
You said yourself you were pretty sure she did what she did with good intentions.
So why was it necessary to expose her sin like that, in public?
What did you think would happen?
What reaction were you expecting from me?
I don't mean to upset you or hurt you in any way here. I'm just trying to understand what went on. It just isn't sitting right. Maybe I'm missing something?
No rush getting back to me either. I understand about your personal stuff/health and we all have stuff to get done. I'm off to grocery shop. It's much cooler and easier on the back.
I hope you're feeling better Storm. Again, I'm just confused Storm.
:D Sela
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Sela, I was placed in a no win situation.
Had I not told you, I would have been essentially colluding with someone who violated your confidence. Someone you trusted. Someone you did not realize had done this.
I did not want to be in that position. It was not right for someone to put me there.
Telling you, I risked provoking an anger reaction, sooner or later. My telling was a form of whistle-blowing. I told you knowing that. Whistle-blowers are seldom thanked. They rock the boat.
I've also seen that PMs have been misused a lot recently. People threaten to disclose their contents on the board. I myself have been openly libeled on the board, by someone who totally fabricated that I was PMing them on a topic and for reasons that I considered defamatory. In that case, I reported the post to Richard [who deleted it]. I had, in fact, blocked that person from PMing me from the moment I reinstated my account here - for excellent reasons, it turns out. Who knows why they posted what they did?
But the whole PM thing seems to have become problematic, and I don't think it used to be.
Please give me credit for something: instead of telling you the way I did, and shielding both Portia's identity, which I did, and the details of the PM, which I also did, I could have chosen to put the PMs out here on the board. That, to me, would have been very wrong. I made a deliberate decision not to do that. Portia chose to disclose her actions out here. She could have PM'd you, easily, to settle this.
Not blaming, just pointing out that I have shown great restraint. Last night and today, anyway... and I'm still sorry about my lack of restraint earlier.
I didn't ask Portia to PM me. I didn't ask her to tell me what you told her in confidence. I wasn't going to be forced into taking ownership of it, by denying it had happened.
I didn't feel that I could PM you about this. Light is the best disinfectant. But as I said above, I was careful to protect the identity of the PMer and the content of the PMs. That was out of consideration for both of you.
I understand your need to follow up now. I'm afraid that we're all going to be left with a little residual discomfort about this, until enough time passes that we've all had a chance to show goodwill when other sets of chips are down.
I hope this helps. If it doesn't, and you continue to have concerns, perhaps we could discuss the matter with Richard. I'd be willing to hear what he has to think. I think I've done the best I could here under the circumstances.
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I just want to make a general point without at first referring to anyone in particular.
The overriding issue for me is trust.
Can I trust that what I say in private will be held in confidence? If I can't then how can meaningful private communication occur? That is one of, perhaps, the most important reasons PMs exist isn't it?
If that trust is breached to a third party then I absolutely think the first party has a right to know their private conversation is not so private. Otherwise they may continue to reveal things they do not want disseminated far and wide, that are. Seems like a no-brainer to me, but that's just me ( a no brainer :P).
Now as to Portia in particular, I think she is a good egg who just made a mistake because she thought she was solving a problem that wasn't getting solved. I know I have gotten myself in hot water by trying to solve other's problems. I hope its not what I'm doing right now. :? Anyway, Portia admitted she put her foot in it and has apologized.
Stormy did not reveal her name and none of us had any way of knowing who she was talking about. And by airing it here on the board Portia was given the opportunity to stand up and if anything seem pretty darn honest and responsible by publically admitting it was her when she didn't have to.
I don't think Stormy had any good alternatives but I do think she took the least bad one.
mud
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I have a question. I want the truth out. This is part of the truth.
Storm
Why did you post that post to Sela on Jacmac’s empathy thread? The one that I privately described to Sela as ‘vicious’?
The one that finishes:
I've parsed this one as an example to the student. We'll consider it a public service. Have a nice day.
When you posted that, I thought, given our previous two PMs, that I was the ‘student’ you referred to. I could be wrong. I’m happy for those PMs to be public by the way, but not for Sela’s words to be public. You can quote anything (anything) I’ve said, but not the PM sharing Sela’s words about her feelings.
So why did you post that frankly vicious and incredibly brutal post to Sela?
I want to know the truth. I am not into point-scoring or bullying or shaming. Just the truth.
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Hi Stormy,
For what it's worth, gotta' agree with Mud here:
I don't think Stormy had any good alternatives but I do think she took the least bad one.
I think that took guts. You're right, no one thanks whistle-blowers; they usually get fired. imho, separate of this situation, you gave everyone an opportunity to discuss the issue of PMs in general and expectations around confidentiality. I was going to PM you this...but, seemed important to thank you publicly for kickstarting a conversation that needed to unfold. imho, you had the best of intentions.
Best to all,
LoH
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So why did you post that frankly vicious and incredibly brutal post to Sela?
I want to know the truth. I am not into point-scoring or bullying or shaming. Just the truth.
Oh for heaven's sake. Is everybody here going bonkers?
Portia I just got done defending you and then you turn around and try to reopen a can of worms that is strictly between Stormy and Sela that they have already settled and that quite frankly you already made worse once by intervening. What is the point of that? Just to restart a fight that has already ended? The truth has already been told and they settled it.
Amazing.
mud
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Mud, thank you for defending me. Are you defending 'me' or what you perceive to be the truth?
Does the truth need defence?
I believe that it is what I said to Storm on PM that caused Storm to post that post to Sela.
Her reference to 'the student' makes me think this. The implications of that are in our PMs.
I could be wrong. But in some way I feel responsible for that post to Sela, and for Sela's pain.
So, there is more to this than meets the eye perhaps.
I don't know Storm's motivations, so I'm asking: why?
If it was to 'teach' me, that Sela had to receive that pain, I want to know, and I want to know why.
Does that seem fair? That is rhetorical. At this point, I'm not sure I even need an answer. I know who I trust.
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Portia,
You seem to continually be seeking answers to things and asking questions to that end. Sometimes the best course is to just let it be and accept that you don't know and don't need to know, if only for the sake of others.
I'm taking a walk.
mud
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Hi all:
Hiya Stormy:
I was placed in a no win situation.
Had I not told you, I would have been essentially colluding with someone who violated your confidence.
If you collude with anyone who violates my confidence in order to help me.......go for it. If they violate to hurt......I wanna know about it. That's just me. Ofcourse, you have no way of knowing that unless...you had asked? Or maybe my making rather light of it and saying that the secret pm'er needed more patience.....was an indication of my view?
I didn't ask you on the board or by pm even though you mentioned this last night, did I?
Someone you trusted.
I still trust her. Isn't that something?
Someone you did not realize had done this.
Someone I did not realize had shared bits of a pm with you of my words in order to try to help me.
I did not want to be in that position. It was not right for someone to put me there.
So..then...the answer to the question what motivated you is.........you posted to relieve your own feelings of dishonesty?? For yourself right?
Telling you, I risked provoking an anger reaction, sooner or later.
Well, Stormy, incredibly, that hasn't happened yet. I'm still not angry. Ain't that strange? I know. But I'm not. Seriously. I feel a bit confused. I feel somehow.....used. Is that the right word?
But I understand, I think, now, that in order to appease your own feeling......you posted. Is that correct? Or have I got that wrong. I want to get it right. I really do.
My telling was a form of whistle-blowing. I told you knowing that. Whistle-blowers are seldom thanked. They rock the boat.
I don't agree. I did thank you. And I was grateful when I thought you were doing something to help me. But now I'm not so sure. I'm just not sure you are a big whistle blower either. Because really.....what P did......helped. You did post back to me and you did accept my appology and you did appologise further and we did talk and we did work it out. Didn't we? So how did what she did.......hurt? I don't think it did. Did it?
I've also seen that PMs have been misused a lot recently. People threaten to disclose their contents on the board. I myself have been openly libeled on the board, by someone who totally fabricated that I was PMing them on a topic and for reasons that I considered defamatory.
I'm so sorry that that is happening and has happened to you. That is really and truly disheartening. Do you feel you cannot trust to pm? What's to stop someone making stuff up again and posting it as if you had pm'd it? Lies really suck. I do have an aversion to lies. I am so sorry this happened and if you posted to me as some kind of reaction to what happened to you. I do understand.
But I don't think you can rack it up to whistle blowing. Whistle blowing occurs when someone exposes hurtful behaviour. Behaviour done with malice. Behaviour meant to cause harm. That's my opinion, anyway.
Maybe I don't understand whistle blowing well enough. But that's how I see it.
The way I see it.....it doesn't seem to have helped me or really...seem like it was intened to help me...this so called whistle blowing. If so.....it could have been done by pm. You could have asked Portia to fess up.
Do you think you would have still felt like you were colluding, had you asked P to confess?
But the whole PM thing seems to have become problematic, and I don't think it used to be.
I have no idea how it's working for everyone else. None. I can't generalize like that and feel good about it. There are problems, I agree, but the whole thing? I don't know. I still have faith in it. But that's ok. I mean we don't have to agree on everything.
Please give me credit for something: instead of telling you the way I did, and shielding both Portia's identity, which I did, and the details of the PM, which I also did,
Oh I do think that was wise and discreet. I do.
I could have chosen to put the PMs out here on the board. That, to me, would have been very wrong.
Indeed. What would be your motivation for doing that? What reaction do you think you would have gotten?
I doubt very much that would have been very beneficial eh? No. I don't think so.
I made a deliberate decision not to do that. Portia chose to disclose her actions out here. She could have PM'd you, easily, to settle this.
Yes. She could have done that. And left the rest of the board wondering who this mystery pm'er was....who was going around .....forwarding people's words......with good intentions to help each......
Not blaming, just pointing out that I have shown great restraint. Last night and today, anyway... and I'm still sorry about my lack of restraint earlier.
I believe you Stormy. And I am sorry about your physical health because that's gotta have an influence on what's going on. It's gotta. For me it would. When I'm in physical pain...my brain just doesn't work the same. But maybe I'm weird? I don't know.
I didn't ask Portia to PM me. I didn't ask her to tell me what you told her in confidence. I wasn't going to be forced into taking ownership of it, by denying it had happened.
You felt as though you owned this terrible secret? This info that I had told her in confidence....that was given to you......in order to try to help me was just too much to keep secret? Come on Storm. If you were asked by me about it....you would then be in a position of being forced to deny or expose. But just having confidential information on hand? Is that the only bit you have? About anyone here? About anyone? Is it that hard to contain?
I'm not blaming you either. I'm trying to understand why you did this today.....after all was well and things seemed all well and good. It wasn't to help me was it?
I didn't feel that I could PM you about this. Light is the best disinfectant
Why not? What did you think I'd do? Get mad at you? I'm still not mad. Not at all. I hope you believe that.
It's true. But I am having a problem with you acting......as if.......to help me...when really, it just doesn't seem like it. And even that's ok. As long as you are willing to be honest about it.
Maybe I'm completely wrong? Maybe I've misunderstood what you've said?
. But as I said above, I was careful to protect the identity of the PMer and the content of the PMs. That was out of consideration for both of you.
Really? Well, I wonder what people would have thought....had you named names? What would they think of you for that? I don't think keeping the name quiet was actually alllllll to protect or in consideration of myself or Portia. I don't know. But I don't think so.
I understand your need to follow up now. I'm afraid that we're all going to be left with a little residual discomfort about this, until enough time passes that we've all had a chance to show goodwill when other sets of chips are down.
Thankyou for this Stormy. I understand your fear. I think that will pass. I think it will be lessened by each person's bravery.
I hope this helps. If it doesn't, and you continue to have concerns, perhaps we could discuss the matter with Richard. I'd be willing to hear what he has to think. I think I've done the best I could here under the circumstances.
I don't think I want to ask the doc anything. I'm really interested in hearing from you, when you get a chance, if you feel like continuing here. I think it's important.
Thanks for taking the time Storm.
Mud, The overriding issue for me is trust.
With all due respect, the issue for me is truth......first. It comes long before trust in my book.
LOH: you gave everyone an opportunity to discuss the issue of PMs in general and expectations around confidentiality
I agree. This is one positive that can be noted. Thanks for noting it.
Portia, for the record. There's nothing wrong with asking for the truth.
:D Sela
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I should have taken a longer walk.
mud
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Hi Sela
OK.
Three hours after I put up that terribly wounding post I wrote, Portia sent me a PM applauding it.
Here it is, in its entirety.
Portia
Hero Member
Posts: 1733
oh ...
« Sent to: Stormchild on: May 25, 2006, 09:42:06 AM »
...thanks on Sela's behalf (maybe). I liked your gift. Guts? I'm a bloody chicken. and busy
I didn't see this anytime soon after it was sent, because of all the other things that were going on.
A few days previously, I'd made a remark about rhetoric on the board. Portia posted in reply out there, I think, and also PM'd me asking for further info.
I did not dissect your post on her behalf, but in the post above, she seems to think I did it for her, and she seems to think it was pretty cool.
24 hours later, she sent me a PM in which she included a number of things you said to her in confidence.
Here is the header and her intro:
Portia
Hero Member
Posts: 1733
info
« Sent to: Stormchild on: May 26, 2006, 09:28:42 AM »
This may help from someone else’s PMs in chrono order (do you know I have to wrestle with my conscience to do this? Really dumb). Hey I had to work very hard. Thanks! Thanks.
Midafternoon of the same day, the following was sent: given in its entirety.
Portia
Hero Member
Posts: 1733
checking
« Sent to: Stormchild on: May 26, 2006, 03:37:34 PM »
Storm, what will happen now? Will you talk to Sela or shall I (on PM)?
I assumed (......) that you would say something but I assumed and I don't know...
Can you let me know please your thoughts?
Now: the reason I put up that appalling post, of which I am thoroughly ashamed, had nothing to do with Portia.
It was a Karpman Triangle reaction. And a classic example, too.
When you replied to my post to jacmac as you did, I felt bullied and angry. I managed to get that reaction under control, and posted a peace offering - offering to accept that you had been angry at me; you denied being angry, and then I felt frustrated [snubbed, no closure]. Your response didn't feel entirely honest to me - there was a strong need to rebuke and enlist in that post to me, some emotion must have been driving it - but I again got my response under control. Until, bless you, you posted to mudpuppy very sympathetically about thugs and bullies.
That had nothing at all to do with me, but off I went. I went right into Karpman Victim [projecting: how dare she talk like that to him, when she knows she's bullying me!] and right from there into Persecutor [well, I'm going to make it extremely clear to everyone exactly what she did!]. With regrettable results that we're all still anatomizing two days later.
The 'exercise to the student' bit was actually my frustration at the way people seem so unwilling to look at the whole issue of Karpman dynamics and codependence and so on, in the interactions here. Ironic as anything, because there I was in the middle of a Karpman acting-out snit myself.
So. I apologize again, and I mean it just as much.
But Sela.
What kind of friend - friend to you, not to me - PMs me to approve of me doing this to you?
What kind of friend then takes things you've said in confidence about me and sends them to me without your knowledge, on the very same thing she was applauding my having done, privately to me, earlier?
What kind of friend comes back here when the issue has been resolved and forgiven, and does everything in their power to stir the pot until it boils over once again?
Those are the questions that need asking here now. I have asked and answered all of mine.
[For the record, Richard can confirm these posts if he has web admin privileges, he can get into all our inboxes and outboxes. What I have posted here is what I received.]
I don't think I'll be speaking to either of you again, here, unfortunately, although I don't intend to leave the board. Best of luck to you both.
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Stormy,
I have to read what you wrote over again because I don't understand it all yet.
I don't think the answer is to stop communicating with eachother but I do understand if you need a break.
I just hope it won't be a forever break.
My head is spinning now.
I have to read and think and think some more.
Later, ok?
Sela
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I should have taken a longer walk.
mud
You do always make me smile.
Thankyou mud.
:D Sela
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Aw, hell.
I like all three of you so very much.
I just want to say:
People can have mixed motives, mood cycles, and little dark spurts that are out of character when they're still GOOD people and even GOOD friends.
I have had nuclear boundary battles with my best friend at times.
We have taken breaks from each other.
Then we make a conscious choice to see that everyone has some twisted place inside that can get activated by certain events...and we often just have no idea what we're doing until some time afterward.
I got in a triangle once with two other people and this friend...and it was very similar, and they both forgave me. But not without me feeling awful about myself for a while.
The lesson in it for me was that sometimes I would stir things up because I had an intense need for connection, and lingering boundary confusions from my Ndamage, and if I felt shamed, or if I over-identified with someone (not saying these were any of your issues lately, they were mine when this happened to me)...the Creature from the Dark Lagoon would take over and do all sorts of confusing instrusive mixed-up things. And they were mixed up, with love and with dependency and with anxiety.
The other lesson was that most of all I needed to forgive myself. Luckily, both those friends are still among my closest friends today...and we have just a more sanguine feeling about how every single one of us has San Andreas faults, and we're less alarmed by them than we used to be. Now I feel more like when I feel it rumble in myself or see it evident in a friend, I'm more observing it, but not believing it. As in, not believing it sums up this person.
((((((((S, S, P))))))))))
Hops
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Then we make a conscious choice to see that everyone has some twisted place inside that can get activated by certain events...and
Dear kind Hoppy. Thankyou so much for reminding me of this as my heart breaks open once again.
I wonder if it will ever not happen like this for me. It just seems like my lot.
Stormy, I don't know the answers to your questions.
on edit: So. I apologize again, and I mean it just as much.
So do I Storm. Three fold. I'm so sorry.
:cry:
Portia: What does this mean?
thanks on Sela's behalf (maybe). I liked your gift. Guts? I'm a bloody chicken. and busy
Can you answer Stormy's what kind of friend questions for me? I just don't know. I feel sick.
:cry: Sela
Mud: keep crackin' jokes whenever you can. it's the only sane thing to do.
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Sela and Storm,
I hope this helps, it’s me being real and truthful about my thoughts and actions.
I have mixed thoughts about this board. I’m not sure there aren’t a couple of therapists here every so often; then I change my mind about that and think that’s silly.
I said I made up a story in my head. Here’s my somewhat crazy story. I haven’t checked my PMs or posts about it, because this is the illogic, what went through my head.
I decided that there was no way an intelligent woman like I see Storm was reacting in all truthfulness to Jacmac. So I had this (paranoid grandiose) idea that Storm was ‘managing’ something. I wrote to Storm after I posted my very bleak reaction to Jac’s questions of me (Jac’s triggers thread). I wrote asking if she’d be my mentor and what does counter-transference feel like? Storm responded with lots of smilies saying something about me always bouncing back. I posted on the what helps board about empathy, projection etc.
At some point I mentioned that Sela was someone I chatted to, in my mind referring to Sela’s post to Storm, hoping Storm would realise that Sela had reacted to her on my behalf. Trying to dampen the effect of Sela’s post. Don’t think I made that clear but didn’t think I had to. Next I know Storm posts the big one to Sela and I’m overwhelmed, don’t know how to take it. I decide to take it as some sort of teaching exercise all round (at this point I’ve decided that Storm is a psychologist). I think the post is too over-the-top to be serious and that it’s serving some purpose. However, I believe that Sela’s response is genuine and I’m pretty horrified and panicked by all this, go into my crisis management mode. I still trust Storm’s intentions as good, if rather manipulative at this point. I decide that Storm needs to know Sela’s feelings so that she can respond appropriately. I’m still in ‘student’ mode. I think the post was a shocking thing meant to encourage learning. That’s why I said whatever I said above. I thought Storm was taking a huge risk with her public profile to post something so biting and I saw that as ‘guts’. I thought she posted it to help Sela (not quite sure if it helped me but I go with the flow when something weird happens here, I genuinely have such trust in ‘the board’ that it probably seems incredibly gullible of me).
Pretty stupid and a tad mad of me I think. But I bet I’m not the only person who’d ever thought like this about events on the board? I think I know I’m not.
Storm,
I still don’t know why you posted that post. I don’t have to know but I was shocked. There you go, that’s my stupidity and naivety; or lack of reality. In cyberspace on a psych board, I reckon it’s easy to go a bit bonkers. Why do you think I sent you that PM about Sela’s response? What was my motive? Did you think I wanted to shame you, show the pain and say, here look what you did? That’s the only thing I can think of that you might have thought. That wasn’t my motive but maybe you thought that? I don’t know. Who’s more bonkers, me or you do you think?
Storm, this:
[For the record, Richard can confirm these posts if he has web admin privileges, he can get into all our inboxes and outboxes. What I have posted here is what I received.]
FOR GOD’S SAKE I have enough self to be able to tell the truth about what I say and do. It’s about being ‘real’ Storm. Real is telling the truth without having to resort to the ‘authority’. Sheeesh. Just what do you think I am???? Some evil internet sadist posting just to cause upset? I’m not angry here, I’m frustrated.
Sela,
I am that whacky at times, although this is probably the whackiest and I don’t usually act so impulsively. I am very sorry, still, because I know that post hurt you. And we haven’t even properly talked about what hurt and why. Maybe you won’t want to now, maybe you will, in time, maybe I’m now the last person you want to talk to, given all that. I wouldn’t blame you. I hope the background stuff helps, if it doesn’t and you’d rather not talk, that’s okay. I think it sounds weird and I’m shocked now I’ve written it. Lunatic.
Last night after Mud’s post – think of others – I thought yes, I’m not doing any good here, for me or others any more, I need to leave it alone. I thought Sela I’d like to still chat to you on PM, but I really ought to keep myself off the board, it’s not doing anyone any good.
But then I checked this thread and thought nope, I got to go back. This is so far from what my mad brain imagined. So.
Don’t know what else to say right now. Hope this makes some kind of sense, if it doesn’t, ignore it, I’m still ‘sane’ in real life, it’s just here I lose it sometimes. It’s the environment I think. I have to go. I’m no fake here and I got things to do.
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Hi Everyone,
A kind person here recently pointed me to a post by Dr. Grossman they were moved by, and it touched me as well. Thanks to Dr. Grossman (the whole post is dated 2/16/06) for packing so much wisdom in one of that post's paragraphs. imho, it bears repeating:
From time to time, as a result of conflict and disagreement, we see wounds open up on the board. The immediate natural inclination to such an event is to defend our positions/selves, quickly to re-cover the injury, to say in effect: “you are wrong about me…I am not like that…I have value.” The stakes—the viability of the self—are incredibly high. My hope, however, is that we can also use these wounds to self-observe—I’m not referring just to the participants in the conflicts, but the readers as well. Look at the vehemence and passion required to protect/restore our selves. Understand it, qualitatively and quantitatively, as a measure of the protection we needed and lacked from critical (both meanings) people in our pasts. Think about the destruction done to our selves because historically we had no protection. Talk about it, cry about it, own it. Here, we are all fighting for our lives.
Richard
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These are the PMs to which Portia refers:
Portia
Hero Member
Posts: 1736
will you be my mentor?
« Sent to: Stormchild on: May 24, 2006, 07:21:10 AM »
haha! To the tune of 'will you be my mwommy?' I'm half joking.
How are you Storm? Pretty good from where I'm sitting.
I've told Sela I'm okay. We chat a lot on PM so we're close.
re What Helps board post. Counter transference. Sure it happened to me...I concentrated so long on that thread, about an hour or more? and my stomach erupted in aches. I was there babe! It was pretty bleak; a pit of emptiness and being adrift. Horrible. Empathy? or something else? Fascinating. Really. What do you think? (I posted 'in the moment' and then shook it off, it felt so bad and pretty overwhelming.) yes i am serious. I trust you. Now!
I'm fine wih your replies. I hope you're okay with this pm. I need to go back to your pitta bread and see what was going on. I have no idea right now. But maybe I know where to look. huff huff pant pant.
8) I'm such a kid I know.
Stormchild
Sr. Member
Posts: 300
Re: will you be my mentor?
« Sent to: Portia on: May 24, 2006, 07:28:40 AM »
Oh P. :D :D :D
You're like the Unsinkable Molly Brown... this is a compliment, if you don't know the movie. No matter what, she pops back up and keeps on keeping on. Inspirational.
I have to run, gotta hit the shops before I get to work, but I wanted to quick reply before I go. I'll come back and talk more, promise.
About the recipe thing, it's OK. It really really is OK. Not that you relived pain, no, I'd never want to cause that, but it was and is OK for you to react to me about it. I'm sorry you had that in your life for real, very sorry.
L8R
The countertransference being discussed here has to do, I think, with Portia's reaction to the 'faffing pita' joke recipe I put up on another thread, as well as a post she put up on the 'What Helps" thread that really impressed me.
Her reaction to the 'faffing pita' joke was negative and intense, and came as quite a surprise to me.
I think the replies she was referring to above are my replies on that thread: I explained my intent [laugh at our monsters] and Portia rejected my explanation as unworkable for her. So I tried to accept her where she was, and felt badly for causing her pain which was never intended.
The Unsinkable Molly Brown reference is due to her having reassured me that she's OK now.
The only other PM I sent Portia after this is the one I sent in response to her emails above regarding Sela. I was not proud of it when I described my reaction to Sela on the board, and admitted that I'd essentially told X to 'go boil their head'. I'm still not proud of it. It was harsh, and I am sorry. But it's the truth of what happened.
Here it is:
Stormchild
Sr. Member
Posts: 300
Re: checking
« Sent to: Portia on: May 26, 2006, 07:32:08 PM »
Bugger off, Portia.
I spent most of yesterday finding out if I had a perforated ulcer. I just got online now for the first time since this morning. I do not need you managing my life. You don't know one tenth of what is going on in it.
If any of the foregoing is manipulative on my part, I honestly can't see it. And I honestly didn't see that Portia was asking me to interact with her therapeutically in any serious teacherly sense. I'm not a therapist; I'm a Ph.D. chemist. I've just been in recovery a long time, and I read too much.
For that failure to see what she meant, if I slighted her, or disappointed her expectations, I am sincerely sorry. Added on edit: and for telling her to 'bugger off' when I did, the way I did, I'm even sorrier.
But I have been providing what I can, in terms of insights, when I can, out here on the board, hoping that people will be helped more than harmed by it.
I can see, given the dates and times of these messages and the lack of other response from me, how my post to Sela might have been mistaken for a teaching session.
What I still have trouble understanding is that anyone would think I'd do that purely for instructional purposes.... and that anyone who was supposedly a friend to the person I targeted would approve of it, even initially. That is no longer 'my' issue, and I am letting it go.
**************
I want to apologize to the board and to Portia and Sela for putting up PMs here. I struggled to avoid this, to avoid even identifying Portia publicly, and I tried even harder to avoid bringing out the issue that still baffles me about Portia's response to my first post to Sela that started all of this. I could see no useful purpose in doing any of that. It was, however, the reason I felt compelled to alert Sela - as delicately as possible - to the fact that her confidence was breached.
I felt that she and I were, possibly, being played off against each other. I didn't want to come right out and say that. If she took up the issue of the PM disclosures with Portia, I thought it might come out between them, on its own. And I thought that was where it belonged.
I realize how ironic this is, with these PMs having now been posted. But if this conflict had not been resurrected last evening, these postings would never have occurred. After thinking the issues had all been resolved, I found myself being judged again and publicly condemned, without the evidence ever being seen by the passer of the judgements. And feeling more strongly than ever, that we were being played off against each other.
There seemed then - and there seems now - not to have been any real alternative to this, in response.
I'm sorry. I truly hope that nothing like this will happen here again. I personally intend to do everything in my power to avoid it. That's the only apology I can offer, and the only amends I can make.
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Stormy, I'm so sorry that I doubted your motives. That was totally unfair and irrational of me, especially
after I made such a big deal about saying how I believe most people here have good intentions, and I deeply
regret doubting yours. I hope you will find it in your heart to forgive me. I'm really really sorry.
Thankyou for not putting my words that were pm'd to you by Portia up here. Thankyou for alerting me,
for struggling to do the right thing, for trying to be discreet and delicate, for all the upset this has caused you.
Thankyou for stating what you intend to do to make amends re what's happened. I'll try to follow in your footsteps.
I feel responsible for a lot of what's happened because it was my post to you about stuff you said to someone
else that started this whole thing. I'm the original worm-can-opener. :oops: :oops:
I am having trouble understanding why Portia approved of your ....let's call it......"teaching" post to me too.
I can see, given the dates and times of these messages and the lack of other response from me, how my post to Sela might have been mistaken for a teaching session.
If you believe this might have happened, then I am inclined to go with that. Portia has said on the board before
how she finds even some .....really difficult posts that have been made to her......helpful and how she has learned from them.
I do believe most people here have good intentions, most of the time and I believe that about Portia too. Maybe
I'm naive? But my gut tells me not to jump to conclusions.....to try harder to understand....so I am trying.
Thankyou for your added apologies, I think I owe them to you instead and I hope you will decide to talk with me
again. I sure hope you will.
Portia, I have illogic that goes through my head too sometimes and I've even shared some of it with you. But logic tells me to ask you more questions.
You liked Stormy's gift? That vicious post.....seemed like a gift to you?
What parts did you like? What was it supposed to be teaching me?
What were you "a bloody chicken" about?
What did you want to say to me that you were too chicken to say?
What were you thinking I needed to learn?
That's what it seems like you meant by those words. I'm trying to figger it out. I'd rather if you'd just
explain it further, if you would, please?
....we're close
I think we are too.
I hope the background stuff helps, if it doesn’t and you’d rather not talk, that’s okay.
Sounds like you're letting me go awfully easily. Like it's not that big a deal eh?
Don’t know what else to say right now.
Grovelling would help ( :mrgreen:). Expressing how you feel right now would help. How do you feel about thanking
someone who posted that "big (mean) one" to me? What does it feel like to have hurt your friend?
And I am your friend.
I believe you're "not some fake". I'm not either and my feelings are genuine, thankyou for thinking that.
I also thought you were a person who would fight for what you believed in?
Don't you believe our friendship is worth more than what seems like a detached explanation of events and a
"I wouldn't blame you" not to talk?
I don't want to talk about how Stormy's post hurt me. That's kind of overwith now.
How about we talk about how you have hurt me by betraying my confidence and violating my trust in you?
I believe your intentions were to help (in relaying my words by pm to her). I think it was very brave of you to tell the truth about a) you being the secret pm'er and b) your "wacky" story that you were......experiencing.
Do you understand that my trust in you has been shaken up and I feel hurt and confused by your ......
what seems like......a lack of concern?
Sela
On edit: I took out a "but", which made no sense, and added a "please" because I forgot to say it.
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PS: Couldn't sleep so I thought I might as well just put my thoughts here.
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Hi Teartracks, Storm, Sela
I'm sorry I don't have much time or mental space today to reply properly. I will tomorrow I hope.
I'd like to say that in general i think I tend to expect the positive, I'm more optimistic than pessimistic, more trusting than distrusting. But I can be prone to 'paragooda' on this board - thinking things are being manipulated for the best. Why here? Because I find it hard to believe what I've encountered here and how much I've learned and how much of an idiot I can be. I can't believe the effect on me, which is silly: I manufacture the effect, not the board.....so.
However, that is my underlying belief, that the board does good. Because I keep weighing up the 'evidence' and the likelihood of the alternatives - and they don't stack up. Also, at the end of everything, I'm probably a 'depressive realist', a hill of beans kind of attitude. You know, so what if human life goes, we don't matter, we only think we matter. That sustains me.
Sela
I feel hurt and confused by your ......what seems like......a lack of concern?
I'm sorry that you feel hurt and confused by what I said. Lack of concern, or letting go of the outcome, letting go of your decision? I can't affect how you see me now, not really, well I guess I could, but that wouldn't seem genuine or true or real. I am what i am. You are what you are. Lack of concern, like 'giving up'? And then you think that I think you're not 'worth' any more fighting for? I get it do I? Right. You're worth fighting for. Are you asking me to prove myself? Prove my depth of attachment? Probably not, but that says a lot about me perhaps.
I'm a wobbler with avoidant tendencies I think. So maybe I'm heading for 'let's get outta here'. I'm too stubborn (or just too old and tired) to do that.
I *feel* very responsible and yet it's out of my hands. It's out of my hands.
Lack of concern. See when it gets to 'what do you really feel' I think, what do I feel? Then i think, I must be a raving N because I don't feel very much.
Problem is, I refuse to pretend very much. We all die. The main 'emotion' i feel generally in life is confusion, then probably annoyance.
I have a huge concern about 'you' and about our friendship but i can't be mushy or insincere about it.
Don't you believe our friendship is worth more than what seems like a detached explanation of events and a "I wouldn't blame you" not to talk?
Detached? It seems detached, really? Maybe I am? Could be. What do you mean, detached?
"i wouldn't blame you": give you the chance to say okay then, see ya. Is it also a test to see if you will say okay then see ya? It didn't feel like a test when i wrote it, it was more 'oh well I don't think anyone is gonna understand this so I might as well stop fighting now'. That was my survival route. Try and then stop. And if necessary, run (because sometimes people do get nasty).
I'm talking about your last question because it's your last question. I'll talk about all the rest tomorrow. I'm sorry I can't say more about my feelings. Okay, one last thought:
What does it feel like to have hurt your friend?
Like shit! What's that? A sick feeling in my stomach. What's the emotion?
feeling misunderstood. Confusion.
Does that help? Seriously, does that help?
This is my childhood: "You hurt me!" and these were my parents and they lied. I guess i have a reluctance to believe that I could 'hurt' anyone? I don't think I'm that.......?
So maybe that optimistic jokery covers a layer of deep pessimism? maybe deep down I'm a really empty person without much humanity? i don't think so. I think I think and I prefer it to feeling. I don't think i hate myself, but how do I know?
Anyway here I am blabbing all about me: it's embarrassing. Isn't it boring too? Seriously aren't you bored? That is a serious question, believe it or not.
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I went away and thought: uh-oh! Suppose TT, Storm and Sela think I'm bored with them???
I don't mean that! No no no. I was bored with me and wondered if you'd be bored by me. True.
I'm not bored at all by anyone here; in fact I'm probably too interested in everyone. I just haven't the time to be as interested and involved as I'd like to be. I find everyone here very interesting and engaging....and I know to some that sounds cold and clinical 'interesting and engaging': but, it's true.
What is more important than being interested in someone, and giving your time?
I had a thought too, a new theory: what do you think?:
all emotions can be distilled down to this - understanding or misunderstanding.
Understanding is everything to me. I want to understand and mainly those pesky things called emotions just get in the way!
Understanding - or the attempt to understand - is empathy.
Projection is not empathy.
Counter-transference can lead to empathy, pretty directly, if such a thing as counter-transference isn't simply a term that professionals have invented (something we all experience all the time but which when called 'counter-transference' is something that only happens between humans in a therapist's office!).
Hope this helps.
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Hi P:
Thankyou for saying I'm worth fighting for. No, you don't have to prove anything. How can such a thing be proven anyway?
I'm glad you're too old and tired to do a "let's get outta here".
I don't think you're a raving N at all. I'm glad you have a great concern about our friendship.
When I read your post.....it just sounded like you were reciting facts. So that struck me as maybe your way of protecting yourself....by sort of detaching from your feelings....not saying much about them. But you say you don't feel much of anything so I guess I was wrong. Or else.......another possibility could be..........maybe you don't know what you're feeling? Or maybe it's feels the safest right now not to go there? I don't know. Not meaning anything negative about you. It's just that I have trouble telling what I'm really feeling too sometimes and I have definitely set my feelings aside by choice, and I guess I think that might be the case for other people too. Maybe not.
You didn't think I'd believe you? You are ready to run 'cause maybe I might get nasty?
Nope. I believe you. Nope. I'm not gonna get nasty. Does that help you?
I'm glad you exposed yourself here and said how you feel like shit and confused and misunderstood and have a sick feeling in your stomach. I'm not glad you're feeling all of that but I'm glad you said so. I'm sorry for all you're feeling too. It doesn't sound very nice for you at all.
I don't believe you are an empty person without much humanity.
I think you're a good person with a big heart.
Sorry this whole experience is bringing stuff from your childhood upfront. This isn't your childhood any more. The same stuff might not happen. Probably won't happen, even, because I'm not your parents and I hope I'm different, plus, it's safe to be yourself....now.....here, I thnk.
You prefer thinking to feeling? I think it's impossible not to feel (to only think) but also that it is possible to distance oneself from one's feelings, as a coping mechanism. I've sure done it. I don't know which thing I like or dislike most. Some feelings are pretty good eh? Some not. Same with thoughts.
I'm not bored P.
Sela
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Hi P YOU ARE A LOVING PERSON THANKS FOR ALL YOUR KIND PMS ABOUT MY TUMMY TROUBLE .
YOUR KIND SUPPORT MEANS ALOT TO ME
WHAT YEAR IS IT MAN 1968
Love and peace man
Moon
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Sela,
this is what I feel right now: frustration. Okay. I’ll try really hard to concentrate on your questions but you know what? What do I feel….I feel: this is hard work. I spend all day awake and asleep trying to understand myself, for...two years now?...and I don’t want to have to explain but I will, since you ask and because I’m still feeling guilty for being an idiot. But first
Moon
I want to be in 1968, amongst the chaos and confusion of big changes and the best year ever for ‘popular’ music! Thank you Moon for posting. I don’t see much fear in Moon these days.
Going back over the page…..
Hops, thanks for your thoughtful post.
LoH, yes that was a thought-provoking post from Dr G. “Talk about it” is what keeps me going. Jaw jaw better than war war.
Teartracks
I don’t mind a cross-examination, I like it! Gives me a chance to yak away. The thoughts about a couple of therapists lurking and or posting – if they’re lurking, hope they’re gaining something that will help them and their clients. If they’re posting, they’re keeping the board going and that’s great. Hidden agendas? Well if they existed and they have hidden agendas (such as ? writing up a research paper? Getting fame and fortune?), to be honest, who cares? I mean, what does it matter? I have personally benefited so much from being here and I’ve probably done it all myself….that means, I’ve been honest and wanted to learn.
A bit like Hops’ thread on intention – what I give out, even if it’s my anger, hurt, pain – I get back and I learn from it. I have to give myself, my story, to learn from it. We cannot see ourselves as others see us, that’s a fact, and here we get the chance to open up in ways we can’t in real life. It’s my choice to post what I do here. Nobody makes me do it. So even if there were hidden agendas, does that affect me? No.
I get what I get from here. Learning, being vulnerable, works for me. Overcoming fear and lack of trust, huge issues for me. But then I have made a real effort to be here and I’ve made the time – lots of it – to do it. I get what I put in! I haven’t felt violated, betrayed or duped at any time. Not true. I’ve felt it often! But I’ve stayed, I’m persistent. And when I’ve felt those things? It was in my head, it wasn’t on the board. Posters here do what they do because of what’s in their heads. Nobody knows the ‘real’ me. Even I don’t know the ‘real’ me (yet).
Also, what about the probability factors and available evidence: probability? Who the heck is going to be that interested – remotely – in one person’s story? There are stories all over the internet; people can’t wait it seems to me to bare their souls and the rest of themselves! I think we live in a culture of personal over-exposure – reality television, Trisha/Oprah type stuff, the media….here is an oasis of sense and deeper mental exposure and I like it. Hey nobody who posts here is going to come around my house and punch me on the nose – the beauty of anonymity. It’s only our heads that cause our fears.
Thinking someone out there wants to manipulate and use me - where do those unrealistic thoughts come from? Okay for a conspiracy theorist, those thoughts are real. But I think it’s possible that some conspiracy theories are started by those in power, to keep those not in power occupied with nonsense – it’s possible (is it probable? Does it affect me? No, then I don’t give that much attention). Who cares whether we landed on the moon or not? Who cares whether they were alien spacecraft or secret human-driven experiments? The point is: it doesn’t matter unless it affects my life today directly. If I’m offered a trip to the moon, it matters in my decision-making. If a saucer-shaped thing lands in my garden, I might ponder about what it is based on my historical and cultural conditioning. Or I might think I need to see a shrink! Gosh one question and I’ve gone off on one. Sorry. Next…
Would it be accurate to say that you were looking for a response with more than smileys and words of assurance, that you were a big girl and that you would bounce back as always?
Well yes, but I was rather barmy at the time, living in my own version of reality which bore little similarity to reality as it seems now. I was taking a huge risk and it didn’t ‘pay off’ in the way I imagined. Not to worry though, because what has happened is okay with me. Stuff happens, I survive and here, nobody gets physical.
Just to clarify, were you wanting mentoring only on counter-transference or in a general way?
Erm, I was thinking counter-transference and a general ‘what’s really going on here’ truth-seeking approach. I was trying to make sense of something I couldn’t understand, or couldn’t square in my head. I was confused about two distinct things and, interestingly, that’s what sent me into an alternative reality of my own making. I made huge leaps in assumptions and decide to go with it, and I was wrong. I don’t do this in real life; I’m actually overly cautious and risk-averse, but realistic, I think (everyone told me I should buy a house when the market was high; I ignored them and bought at the bottom, i.e. on important things like money and physical safety, I trust myself and don’t take risks).
Intelligence is worth zero without experience and understanding I think. And what type of intelligence? It’s the ‘bright’ folks who go really mad I believe. Yes. Another assumption of mine. Most psychiatrists seem really bonkers to the rest of society. I was chatting to my neighbour over the weekend. In the garden, within five minutes we were discussing depressive realism and what’s normal. She wanted to talk about: is it everyone else that’s normal or is it me that’s normal and the rest are mad? The fantastic irony of that struck me later and I admit I had a huge laugh. Do normal people stand in the garden discussing what’s normal? Hahahaha! (If she reads this, will she know who I am? Surely we weren’t the only two people on the globe having that conversation over a couple of days? This is my thought process: Probability of being ‘known’ + realistic assessment + what’s the worse that could happen anyway? = trust of self-judgement.) Oh hang on there’s a knock at the door……I’m joking.
Managing something. Um. This was about what I perceived on the board and I was wrong. This was my alternative reality going haywire. I tend to think that there is a grand plan sometimes, that there are good wise people doing things behind the scenes for everyone’s benefit (like a faith), but this is me projecting. Wanting my parents to be omnipotent and loving etc. I try to grow up, try to take responsibility for myself and my thoughts, but these old childlike wishes – magical thinking to an extent – come sometimes. That’s how I see it. It’s no big deal. Lots of people do it, just don’t admit to it in public very often.
Wanting to flush out evidence that she may or may not be a lurking/posting psychologist?
Oh no!! If there are any, I want them protected! (as if they couldn’t protect themselves if there were any? Ha.) I look for the actual positives, not the potential negatives. I’ve survived and thrived so far and I will survive. What good would flushing someone out do? Consequences? And quite frankly, how on earth would I do that? I couldn’t. It’s practically impossible isn’t it? Have a think about it. What if I was a hacker? I could maybe find IP numbers and trace them back and then break into someone’s office, look through their papers………for what? See how daft this becomes once you take it to logical conclusions? And what’s the objective? Who does this help?
More clearly: exactly what harm could I come to here? That’s what I ask myself every time I get a weird paranoid worry. Then I realise I’m being grandiose: how on the earth is anyone so interested in me (just me, only me), that they would bother to follow my every word? Haven’t other people got lives?
Dorothy Rowe says: ‘The comfort of paranoia is thinking that someone, somewhere is thinking about you.’ The awful truth is, they’re all thinking about themselves and unless you offer someone a sure fire way to make money, or you walk into the path of someone intent on physically injuring another human, you’re pretty safe. If you’re entangled with a narcissistic individual, you have the choice to exit the relationship. Hey I think I’m going into lecture mode so I’ll stop myself now.
Thanks TT, I enjoyed that. All written as my truth to help you (if you think like this) decide your level of trust, maybe look at your way of looking at the world (is it realistic or just a bit unrealistically pessimistic, based on actual events and what is happening right now?). Maybe I overstepped the mark there. I hope not. Take care and thanks again, I mean it, writing this helps me clarify my own thoughts too, when I write I test my assumptions and theories about myself and the world. It all helps.
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Storm
I don’t know what to say…I’m sorry that you’re sorry (I accept that you are) and I am sorry for what you feel about all this, especially:
I'm sorry. I truly hope that nothing like this will happen here again. I personally intend to do everything in my power to avoid it.
I hope you change your mind about this.
Sela,
thank you for your kind words above. Shall I answer your questions from over the page?
Now I’m reading about feelings and thinking….I better go back over the page, coz that’s what this is about I think. Setting my feelings aside, not knowing them, being afraid of them?
You didn't think I'd believe you?
I didn’t know if you would take the time to try and understand me. Time is precious. Giving time is almost everything. You might decide your time is better spent elsewhere. I can’t affect what you decide if I’m being truthful. I could grovel, I could implore, I could threaten, I could cry, I could bribe, manipulate, but really, I’d rather you decide what you want to do. I’d rather you do what you want out of your own free will. I’m not into self-serving manipulation (as far as I know).
You are ready to run 'cause maybe I might get nasty?
No coz you can’t thump me here. In real life? I was in the supermarket car park. I heard shouting. About 50 yards away, a big man was shouting at two scrawny male teenage trolley-collectors. They looked shocked. He was close. I heard him shout “if you’re taking the piss out of me I’ll jump on your f***ing head”. I was ready for flight or fight, depending on what happened next (go and get help, go and intervene). The man shouted himself out, turned and stomped away, the teenagers looked at each other and did those “what a nutter! Shame eh?” looks at each other. Now that’s a normal reaction I thought, and got on with my shopping. But I was ready to act, for sure. Some people are crazy out there, a few are dangerous. It’s safer here.
I like being believed, but that doesn’t mean that you understand. Belief is acceptance. I accept that’s what you think, I believe you (but I don’t necessarily understand why you think that way, what you feel etc).
I’m glad you’re not going to get nasty though! That does feel good. I’m not going to get nasty either.
I'm glad you exposed yourself here and said how you feel like shit and confused and misunderstood and have a sick feeling in your stomach. I'm not glad you're feeling all of that but I'm glad you said so. I'm sorry for all you're feeling too. It doesn't sound very nice for you at all.
Oh right, because if I don’t say what I feel, you don’t know? I could be having a sadistic party and you wouldn’t know, right? I could step right outside the character I’ve been for over two years and become a totally different person maybe. Very unlikely – but possible I suppose, if I think about it. But that would make me really quite insane? And if I was that crazy, would I have been able to sustain this? Again it’s down to probability I think. It’s possible, but not probable. But you need to see my feelings?
I don't believe you are an empty person without much humanity.
Thank you Sela. That’s a great use of belief yes? Because you can’t understand that, you can choose to believe it, based on your experience of me. I’m glad you do believe that.
You prefer thinking to feeling?
I can’t help but feel. I don’t decide to feel, I just do it. Feelings are just feelings. But I don’t let them dictate what I think and definitely not what I do, well….not most of the time, I don’t think…….
(Is it like being visual or aural? I’m visual. To say “I hear you” to me is false but I try for the benefit of those who are aural. But I would much rather read “I see what you mean”. I say “I think you’re on to something” not “I feel you’re ….”. I played around for a tiny while saying “I sense what you mean is….” but that *feels* false too. The *feeling* there is my gut, my intuition, not some emotion. It’s intuition-feeling, not feeling-feeling. And I know what I mean by that difference!)
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Hiya Portia:
I don't have much time this morning. I appreciate that you took so much time to write all of that (and some of it....was quite enjoyable for you, as you said, so that's good).
I'm a simple person. I am interested in your thoughts and feelings because I am your friend. I will admit, I was hoping to hear that you feel some remorse ( I’m still feeling guilty for being an idiot.
might indicate something close to that, I don't know.....or that sick feeling in your stomach......). And yes, I do ask because I can't know what your feelings are without asking. I can guess, I can try to empathise or I can ask. It helps me to understand you because you are not just composed of your thoughts. Your feelings are also part of you and really....it's generous to share them. You don't have to, just because I ask. So thanks.
Why do I want to know you feel remorse? Because I have this wild vision in my head that if I'd hurt you I would feel that. Remorse, for one. But I'm not standing in your shoes, so how could I possibly know what I'd do? Or feel? Or say? And how can I possibly expect you to feel what I want? How insane is that?
Which can I rely more heavily on...........my thougths or feelings? Seriously, I can't tell. Sometimes my thoughts are way off base......way out there in left field.........far away from reality and just figments of my imagination......projections of my experiences......or simply......mistaken perceptions......assumptions......or otherwise incorrect.
Sometimes they're bang on accurate.
Sometimes, my feelings seem more trustworthy.......more reliable.......more like animal instinct and worth paying attention to. So I guess, I can't honestly say that I don't usually act on my feelings because I do. I know I do. Probably as often as I do on my thoughts, if it seems like the reasonable thing to do (which I guess.....my thoughts do get in there and help me to decide what, if anything, to do, about my feelings).
Sometimes, my feelings are exagerated.....inflated.......my thoughts drive them there.....my brain just hooks into what I'm feeling and feeds that feeling more and more.......so the feelings become intense.....like a massive waterfall.......unstoppable......over the edge those feelings flow. I have to pay attention to my thoughts then and make sure they aren't doing me a big disservice. I don't always succeed there either because I'm human.
I'm sorry you're feeling frustrated.
Shall I answer your questions from over the page?
Sure, why not? I asked because I want to know.
I didn’t know if you would take the time to try and understand me.
I am trying and I do want to understand.
No coz you can’t thump me here.
Not physically but people can use words as weapons and cause others pain, don't you think? I hope you believe I won't do that. I don't believe you will.
Because you can’t understand that....
Hang on P. How do you know what I can or can't understand?
you can choose to believe it, based on your experience of me.
That and based on my experience dealing with an empty person who seemed to have little humanity.
It’s intuition-feeling, not feeling-feeling. And I know what I mean by that difference!
I think I understand what you mean there. It's tricky sometimes for me to tell the difference. You?
this is hard work
Thankyou for doing it. I appreciate the time and effort it takes.
Speaking of which, I have to run off to work now.
Sela
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Sela,
I’ve been reading through this thread. What a huge example it is of how we think we understand what’s going on with others, but we have little idea, or maybe some of us have and some of us not? There are some things I can talk about:
Storm, you said:
The countertransference being discussed here has to do, I think, with Portia's reaction to the 'faffing pita' joke recipe I put up on another thread, as well as a post she put up on the 'What Helps" thread that really impressed me.
No Storm! Not what I meant. I thought I’d experienced some counter transference elsewhere. I was reeling from it and really wanted some help; I didn’t make that clear at all. Sorry. If it was about the pita business, I would have said so, I hope. I was done with that when it was done on the board, or seemed to be? I don’t hold grudges like that or let things drift. Or if I let things drift, I say, ‘hey I’m going back to x, can we talk about that?’. Maybe me reeling from these new intense feelings, which I didn’t recognise as mine – maybe that sent me off into my unreal assumptions about you? I don’t know. Possible. Anyway..
Her reaction to the 'faffing pita' joke was negative and intense, and came as quite a surprise to me.
Well maybe it seemed like a negative and intense reaction to you, but it didn’t seem it to me? Maybe not just me? I don’t know. I thought your feelings in that were negative and intense, what I mean is, it frightened me to see *you* writing like that, I was scared by the vehemence. It wasn’t balanced imo. I later on that thread called you a ‘nutso’ Storm, I was worried about you. I tried to do that comfortingly, it’s okay to be a nutso kind of thing. I thought you got that? I was wrong, obviously. Assumptions!
I think the replies she was referring to above are my replies on that thread: I explained my intent [laugh at our monsters] and Portia rejected my explanation as unworkable for her. So I tried to accept her where she was, and felt badly for causing her pain which was never intended.
I still say: whose pain was it Storm? but that’s just my opinion.
The Unsinkable Molly Brown reference is due to her having reassured me that she's OK now.
Gosh that wasn’t the intention of me writing to you! I wanted help with understanding what counter transference is because I felt I had just been drowning in it, but it’s okay. But I wasn’t reassuring you about the pita thing; that was over and done with as far as I thought and I’m surprised you didn’t think it was?
Misunderstandings abound all round I think and it’s really given me food for thought about using the internet to communicate. It’s soooo difficult. We need to make assumptions to live our lives but….I wonder how much our internal realities match each others’ at all, even those in real life we are close to. It’s upsetting isn’t it? I think for us to understand just one person in our lives is difficult enough, we’re such complex-brained creatures. Knowing what’s really going on – I wonder if that’s even possible? How do we know for sure what others are thinking, their motivations etc? Just wailing at the moon here. Gonna post this and come back.
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Sela, your post back a page and then your post above, I hope all this makes sense.
I feel responsible for a lot of what's happened because it was my post to you about stuff you said to someone else that started this whole thing. I'm the original worm-can-opener.
And I think you said that because you were upset about what you perceived was happening to me. So I’m the original worm-can-opener. And I was reacting to something else. And so on.
You liked Stormy's gift? That vicious post.....seemed like a gift to you?
If someone challenges me and my thinking, it’s a gift, yes (even if it is not intended as such). I learn from my mistakes. It takes a long time for me. Of course I didn’t like the post itself, but I can see the benefits in almost everything…
What parts did you like?
I liked the parts that showed you doing exactly what I’ve done before and will probably do again. The parts about groups I remember in particular; I did that with Marta (‘and I would encourage everyone to say what they want to’….or something like that, dictatorial rallying stuff). (Sorry Marta.)
What was it supposed to be teaching me?
I thought it was teaching me, not you. What the lesson was, I couldn’t fathom. I was actually very shocked and angry with Storm but I decided to suspend the thought that this was actually intended as it looked, particularly given the closing line about the student. I still don’t know who the student was supposed to be?
What were you "a bloody chicken" about?
I wouldn’t dare post a post like that now (or would I, have I, do I know?). Maybe I’m too careful these days? A bloody chicken. Maybe I should say exactly what I think when I perceive that someone is being abusive and bullying? Because sometimes I think, is it just me that thinks this is way out of line? And I think hey, maybe others are too scared to say something, so maybe I should speak.
What did you want to say to me that you were too chicken to say?
Nothing at that point. I wasn’t talking about saying things to you.
What were you thinking I needed to learn?
I thought I was learning, not you. I don’t think you ‘need’ to learn anything, or if I do think that, I check myself and think, who made me God today? At least I try. Sometimes I post and when I read back I cringe. Or I cringe if someone points out to me that I’m acting like God. But I still do it I’m sure, we all do don’t we? No? Oh bugger.
What does it feel like to have hurt your friend?
Horrible. Awful. Like I have a vein of pure badness running through me. A vein I didn’t know I had and finding it is like this person you thought you were, it’s not true. What you imagined you were isn’t true and the ego collapses. You become the worthless part that you’re trying to build on. Everything becomes impossible; you – I – can’t build up a true personality because all the groundwork is laid. It’s too tough. It might be a better idea just to fake it through life, live with the lies; the lies being that I’m okay, I am worthwhile. Because deep down I know that’s not true. All this learning, it’s icing, it’s not the core me. Yah, those are the sorts of thoughts – or feelings – that can run through I reckon. I’m typing them so I guess I must know a thing or two? Or have I spent too long reading? Luckily I know my intentions, I know I didn’t act out of spite, malice, envy, anger, rage, jealousy, or to enjoy someone else’s pain. I acted to help. I trusted Storm and didn’t ask for confirmations, I didn’t ask her to talk to me. I accepted the story in my head and that was really unrealistic. In other words I'm a nutter, but a 'good' nutter. haha!
How about we talk about how you have hurt me by betraying my confidence and violating my trust in you?
I have hurt you by betraying your trust in me not to tell others what you say in private. I think that’s the same as violating your trust in me. How can I make it up?
Your reply above, Sela.
Yes remorse is what I felt, for sure. I centred the word in my head at the weekend. ‘Remorse’ kept flashing up at me. Sounds weird? It’s true. I thought “I bet this is remorse, I’m gonna check the definition”. Silly? Nope I want to identify each emotion as it occurs. And you know I’m a bit strange about words. How do we know we mean the same thing by ‘remorse’????
But it’s generous to share my feelings? Really? Now that is a new idea for me, truly. Wow, why the heck would anyone want to know my feelings, all of them? What an eye-opener! You mean (some) people in real life might want to know how I feel? How am I going to deal with this new knowledge?
And how can I possibly expect you to feel what I want? How insane is that?
Not that insane Sela, aren’t we all shocked when we do something that we think someone might like, and they chuck it back at us? Assumptions, expectations.
Hang on P. How do you know what I can or can't understand?
I don’t! I have no idea. Thanks Sela. :D
About:
It’s intuition-feeling, not feeling-feeling.
For me, when I act on intuition, I think afterwards and can trace it back but the head’s talking, that’s how it …..feels! With feelings, I feel it physically – not in my head - and then I know it’s emotion, not intuition based on experience and thoughts, memories. Huge difference for me. Feelings come from stomach, heart/chest area, knees, neck muscles, hands (sweating), teeth, other muscles..yes?. Heart-warming, joy – comes from the chest. Fear comes out all over. Remorse, guilt, sadness, confusion, envy mainly in my stomach. Add in anger and that comes out all over too through the veins. Rage is blood-red. Add rage to brain power and it becomes cold focussed revenge, horrible, I’ve experienced that feeling once or twice. Then there’s neutral anger? Anger pulled in and with thought applied, focussed but unemotional anger. I bet that takes a while to master!
But I’m going to think about feelings again now. Thank you ((((((((Sela)))))))).
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Dear Portia:
What a huge example it is of how we think we understand what’s going on with others, but we have little idea, or maybe some of us have and some of us not?
Isn't it though? Incredible, really, how much and how easily stuff can be misunderstood. Thankyou for taking so much time to explain what's going on with you and what went on. I see that as a great gift. A gift of time. You bothered. You took the time. And your patience is admirable, in doing so. Thankyou.
And so on.
Ya. That's exactly how the blame game goes.
"You're to blame!".
"No, you're to blame!"
"No, you are!"
"No, you are!"
Except in this case it's:
"I'm to blame!"
"No, I'm to blame!"
"No, I am!"
"No, I am!"
Ok. It doesn't matter. Water under the bridge, as far as I'm concerned.
If someone challenges me and my thinking, it’s a gift, yes (even if it is not intended as such).
That's a fantastic and wonderful attitude and one I'd best take note of and try to copy. I can see that as being the precursor to patience and like an answer to another one of my prayers. Thankyou, P.
I'm so glad I asked about the parts you liked, what you thought that post was supposed to be teaching, what you were chicken about, and what you thought I needed to learn. Here I thought it was allllllllllll about meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!
:oops: :oops: :oops: :oops:
It wasn't. Hahahaha!! You're sooooo right! I need to adopt the theory that very little is. If I could only sink that into my one poor functioning brain cell!! It's not always about me!! Not!! Usually, not!!
Portia, I'm so sorry for all of the bad thoughts you had about yourself and how awful and horrible you felt. You've taken on all of the responsibility for hurting me but actually.......it's not all yours.
I'm the one who doubted you long enough for it to hurt. I allowed myself to feeeeel hurt when I could have suspended that belief......that you were hurting me........and asked all of these questions first. Although, I know I can't control my feelings like some machine. I did think to wait......ask......try to find out for sure.....but I also allowed the idea that you might be glad about Stormy's post to me and that......
is as you say.......simply because I did not understand the words.....or what you meant by them.
Some of the responsibility for my hurt belongs to me.
The good news is........I do trust myself and I kept telling myself that what I know of you is that you are honest and brave and to keep talking. You are P. You could have told me in one sentence:
"Look, I didn't mean anything. Your hurt is in your own head. If you don't believe me, then I guess that's up to you."
But you didn't do that did you? You took the time to explain and the blame for hurting me and felt bad about yourself, even though you didn't do anything to intentionally hurt, even though your words were misunderstood. Thankyou Portia. Too much.
I know I didn’t act out of spite, malice, envy, anger, rage, jealousy, or to enjoy someone else’s pain. I acted to help. I trusted Storm and didn’t ask for confirmations, I didn’t ask her to talk to me. I accepted the story in my head and that was really unrealistic. In other words I'm a nutter, but a 'good' nutter. haha!
I believe your story and I'm stickin' with it. No whistle has been blown. There was nothing to blow about.
I do understand how your pm was misunderstood and how the need to alert me was felt by Stormy. I'm still not sure why this had to be done here and not by pm but there must be a reasonable explanation for that too. Or even if there isn't, it doesn't matter because as far as I can see, this is a good learning experience (for me, for sure. for you? for others? I hope and bet).
I have hurt you by betraying your trust in me not to tell others what you say in private. I think that’s the same as violating your trust in me. How can I make it up?
By owning up to this....you are showing me that you are willing to take responsibility for your behaviour....which is detrimental to change. I believe you are an intelligent person who willl learn from her mistakes. You haven't said so, but I assume you won't do this again. You can make it up by confirming this.
I so appreciate your putting this here. It's risky.
Yes remorse is what I felt, for sure.
I believe you and I'm glad you said this. You haven't asked, but I forgive you anyway. You're a joy P!! Not some evil person.
I know you didn't ask me this but I'm gonna give my opinion of it anyway:
How do we know for sure what others are thinking, their motivations etc?
We don't.
We have to ask.
We have to trust.
We have to trust to believe the answers are true.
I still trust you P. You didn't slam a door and run away, even though you had no intentions of causing harm and I put the whole load on you. It's not. You took more than your share. Thankyou for that.
I still trust most people's intentions here and elsewhere. They count big time in my book. Yours did/do, very much so, P.
By the way, I loved your description of intuition vs feelings! Do you really feel feelings in your teeth? :shock:
Mine must be dull. :roll:
Imagine going to a therapist with this problem?
"Hello. My name is Sela and I have a problem feeling stuff in my teeth. Do you think we could talk about it?"
:mrgreen: Sela
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PS: You were right Mud.
Trust does come before truth.
Here's what I've been thinking about it all:
Truth and trust are like.........the egg and the chicken.
Which comes first?
I want truth first. Without truth, there can't be trust.
The opposite is also true.
Without trust, there is no truth.
So how does one tell?
Which is which and what is true and what is worth trusting?
Or who?
I have to trust to believe it's truth.
I have to have truth in order to feel I can trust.
How can I trust if there are lies?
How can I find what's true and what's a lie?
How do I ever know for sure about anything?
I can't. I don't. I have to trust.
I have to.
It's the only way to ever find truth.
Truth is fact.
Truth can be researched sometimes.
True feelings.....true motives.....true objectives....
can only be trusted.
There's no way inside anyone else's head to make sure.
To look for facts.
To proove those true.
The only way is through trust.
I ask for truth but I know I have to trust first.
I want truth first, before I feel like I will truly trust.
So I ask for truth.
But because I don't know if it's truth or not
I can only trust so far.
So many times.
Until I'm prooven right for trusting.
Until the truth is clear.
And then trust gets stronger.
Or if I'm prooven wrong
Truth also becomes clear too
And trust goes away
And all that is left......is truth.
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Hi Stormy:
Just wanted to say that by "no whistle was blown", I mean that you are not some big bad whistle blower, in my mind, some snitch. I understand that you did what you thought was right and you wanted to alert me.
By "there was nothing to blow about"......I mean in regards to P's intentions. She did violate by sending private information but she did so to try to help. Even so, I need to know what I say in a pm won't be forwarded on to others, so I see and appreciate your concern and effort to alert me.
Is this absolute? If I said I was going to kill myself and burn my house down.....would it be ok for P to send that info to Dr. G, for instance? Heck yessirree!! That's serious stuff. Emergency stuff.
There are no real absolutes, I think. Just basic common sense.
What I don't understand is why you're not talking to me or accepting pm's. But that's ok. I trust you have reasonable reasons.
Sela
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Hiya Sela
Patience is a key isn’t it? I don’t think it’s holding yourself back, repressing stuff that needs to come out (as I used to think it was – “be patient!” meaning you don’t count, you’ll have to wait for anything you want). Patience is more - allowing others? Not trying to force, change or manipulate others to get what you want. To get what you want through your own means and if you can’t, look elsewhere or wait, it’s about being relaxed, not about denial – denial of feelings or of desires. It’s about accepting, I think, not trying to change the world….oh dear clichés abounding…but about changing yourself, your own attitude. Until I ‘got’ this kind if thing, I thought it was nonsense, rubbish. That's the old unhealthy contemptuous scornful attitude, the false self defense.
You took the time to explain and the blame for hurting me and felt bad about yourself, even though you didn't do anything to intentionally hurt, even though your words were misunderstood. Thankyou Portia. Too much.
You feel bad, I feel bad. In the feeling stakes, it doesn’t matter who’s to blame, who’s responsible, the feelings have lives of their own, they don’t respond to logic eh? I feel bad that you feel bad, doesn’t matter why.
Someone is crying, I feel bad, healthy human reaction (unhealthy human reactions – laughing, getting angry or annoyed, shaming, being irritable, being shocked, trying to stop it happening etc etc). We can’t help how we’re built, even when we’re dys/malfunctioning, we can’t help it I guess.
“Negotiations and love songs are often mistaken for one and the same….” (Paul Simon?).
Misunderstanding at the root of all trouble and strife. Too much Sela? Not really eh? Just time and willingness and concentration because it matters. Thank you.
A very good learning experience for me. hugely helpful. Gotta watch those unreal story-making habits of mine. Gotta ask more questions! Check, confirm, trust, re-check, ask, change, live, grow, move on.
Thanks for forgiving me. I’ve not had to ask for that before so I don’t know when it’s time to do it. What I mean is, I haven’t had any chance to do it before. I think?
I am not making this mistake again, well, several mistakes all in a row. Lots of mistakes. But as for PM words, no, I won’t do it, nope. I will not panic ever again but if I do (!)……hey I’m human….i won’t send anyone someone else’s words on Pm without checking with the author. I wish I’d done that. But then I wouldn’t have learned all this.
Teeth! Grinding teeth, clenching teeth, all that stuff. Don't do that any more.
Trust and truth, how to: keep asking yourself: why. Why. but really, why? that removes the fear, the prejudice, the unreal thinking, the assumptions….etc. Waddya think?
Storm,
not talking here and not taking PMs? I don’t want to know. Just want to ask that biggie question - why – not for me to know, it’s not my business, it’s yours, only yours. Are you afraid? What of? I don’t know. Not asking for an answer. Just kind of , well, what else can I say? I’m talking to myself. Again. Doesn’t matter, I’m used to it and hey, I talk to the products on supermarket shelves and don’t care what people think. So the ‘why’ is for you, no answer required or expected here.
Take care all.
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Hiya Portia:
I think patience is everything you've described and for me, it mainly involves tolerating delay. In the 3D world, I'm a getter-done-fairly-organized-kinda person. I don't like wasting my time. It's one of the things I hated about commuting to the city to work.......sitting in those stupid traffic jams and thinking about all the other stuff I could have been doing instead. I managed by changing my thinking and distracting myself, trying my best to be patient, etc. But I didn't like it.
I guess, in life, there are all kinds of "traffic jams" and I have to find a way to put up with them. I think patience is something that helps me tolerate so many of life's frustrations, like waiting.......and that's why it's always appealed to me to be something I want more of. More give me more!!! (Hurry up and give me more!!! :mrgreen:)
Misunderstanding at the root of all trouble and strife.
Did you coin this or learn it elsewhere? Packed with wisdom and truth, I think.
I'm glad "it matters".
i won’t send anyone someone else’s words on Pm without checking with the author.
Thankyou Portia. I'm sure you will keep with this decision. Thankyou for exposing yourself here in this thread so fully and wtih so much honesty and bravery.
For me, it feels so much better forgiving someone who admits their error/behaviour, takes responsibility for it, examines it, humbles themselves by expressing their thoughts and motivations, expresses sincere regret and remorse, and offers/plans/decides to take steps to be sure it doesn't happen again/make up for it......than it does to just forgive someone......for my own good (so as not to harbour feelings of anger and resentment in myself.....feelings that seem to ferment). No wonder you don't have to ask for forgiveness P.
Teeth! Grinding teeth, clenching teeth, all that stuff. Don't do that any more.
Glad to hear that! That's a sign of wonderful healing, I think, improvement?
Also, I agree that "why?" is a good question to keep asking.
:D Sela
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Hi Sela, happy June! It’s so cold here! Get on with summer, darn it.
Traffic jams etc, oh yes. I’m good these days, I used to get terribly fret up and anxious. Now I catch myself and say ‘good thinking time’. Don’t miss an opportunity to fire up the grey matter. I bet you don’t either.
Did you coin this or learn it elsewhere?
:oops: I just typed it but it’s what I’ve learned over the past two years. Everything that happens here is what happens on a macro scale? Israel and Palestine, Iran and ‘the guys who are right’ (just one view) etc etc. Understanding is everything. Ignorance is not bliss (who said that? I want to ask what they meant). Thanks Sela.
No wonder you don't have to ask for forgiveness P
Oh I didn’t mean I didn’t have to! I don’t think I’ve ever been given the chance so I wouldn’t know the right moment to ask? My experience has been that I’ve been wrong, bad or mad, have been told that and punished, there was no chance of forgiving going on. Mind you at work there was a mistake and my boss tore me up for not telling him (and therefore making him look stupid for not knowing in front of his boss *sigh* - he didn’t care about the actual mistake) and by then I had worked out that I wasn’t necessarily bad. Mistakes happen.
Forgiveness, I was thinking, to ask for it seems out-of-sync. I guess it implies wanting to make up but if you’re involved in understanding and explaining, the forgiveness happens as a result and it’s up to the forgiver to feel it and say it. Forgiveness can’t be felt at will? It happens when it happens in the person who feels it. ? “Will you forgive me?” “I don’t know yet, keep talking” kind of thing. ?
Who what where when why how.....makes good journalistic writing but so often the last two are missed..
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Hi P:
Yes! Happy June to you too. It's sweltering hot and humid here. Still not "officially" summer. My dogs are busy sleeping .....dog days of summer?? Is that where that one comes from? Dunno.
I just typed it but it’s what I’ve learned over the past two years.
Very cool P 8) Very cool!! Truth and wisdom P-style!! I love it!!
My experience has been that I’ve been wrong, bad or mad, have been told that and punished, there was no chance of forgiving going on.
You are never wrong or bad or mad (meaning "crazy"). No one is, imo. We might behave wrongly or badly or madly.....but that doesn't make us.......those things. Behaviour can be changed but being told "You are bad or wrong or mad"??? What part of you? Where? All of you? Seriously? Not true! Never true! Or at the very, very least about most people alive.......rarely, if ever true. Even the worst people have good in them. And a child within too. Being told this.....especially as a child......is cruel and destructive. Shame on whoever did that!! Their behaviour is wrong, bad and mad!!!! :x
Mistakes happen.
No kidding!! So glad you worked this out, P!!
There are mistakes and there are poor choices:
Using this episode as an example:
Mistake: Not understanding words, posts. (I did this too)
Poor choice: Pm'ing private info. (with good intentions)
I think it's important to note which is which. Mistakes seem the less evil of the two....but seriously....who hasn't made a poor choice?? Let that person step forward so I can kiss your stinky feet!! :D
Sorry your boss did that to you. Not right or fair, P. :( I want to call him bad names. :oops:
you’re involved in understanding and explaining, the forgiveness happens as a result and it’s up to the forgiver to feel it and say it.
I do see what you mean and to a certain extent.....I agree.
For me.......I choose to forgive....so it is up to me. It's a choice. I forgive almost everyone.......but not everything. I don't accept especially poor behaviour, bad choices, etc......if the person continues to make them, shows no sign of being aware of them, refuses to own up to them, does not take responsibility for them, etc....or that they are acceptable.
But I do forgive the person and choose not to hang onto my feelings of anger and resentment toward that person. I have to work hard to get those out and then.....I feel like I've forgiven ....them.
And if I make a mistake, or a poor choice, or behave "badly".......I feel sorry and want forgiveness (if I am aware that I've done it). I want to make up, as you put it. I also want the person to get rid of their anger and resentment toward me (there's that wanting the other person to feel stuff stuff again eh? ). I don't like the thought of having hurt/upset or otherwise injured another and I'm usually very sorry that I did whatever I did. Usually, I'm pretty good at taking responsiblity, etc for my behaviour and all the rest.
But I ask......for forgiveness to show that I am sorry. It seems like part of taking responsibility and showing remorse. Asking. Not expecting. (Not saying you did any of that P.....just my brain throwing it's stuff out here the way I've thought of it......might be waaaaay off). It's just that some people do not choose to forgive until they are asked. So I ask. And some people expect others to ask before they consider giving forgiveness. It's hard for me to tell.....who wants what? So I ask.
For them as well. Because I think it helps them to forgive too. But you're so right. It's up to them to choose and decide.
Why forgive?
How to forgive?
Good questions and I have my reasons. Some of them are quite selfish, I think. Lot's to think about P. Thanks.
to ask for it seems out-of-sync
I'm not sure I understand what you mean? Out of sync for whom?
:D Sela
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PS: I say "anger and resentment" because it seems for me......by the time I get around to making a conscious choice to forgive for my own good.....I'm feeling anger and resentment. Usually because talking never started, ended or didn't seem believable (back to truth and trust again :roll:). That didn't happen this time because you took the time to explain and I to understand, and it never got to a point of.........no talking between us.
No talking = no understanding, I think.
So talking is a big, big factor in the "how" of forgiving, imo. No matter who's doing/done what eh?
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Hi Sela,
I've been thinking over what you wrote for a while, and so much that's been said in this thread, and questions came to mind.
No talking = no understanding, I think.
So talking is a big, big factor in the "how" of forgiving, imo. No matter who's doing/done what eh?
[/color]
What if the reason for not talking doesn't come from a lack of understanding/effort to understand and isn't a matter of who did what or forgiveness?
Do you think that silence can also be a case of not having anything to say? Not talking, imho, can be a result of excellent understanding: a person can understand another's POV with clarity and still disagree wholeheartedly. Or live by very different values.
When I look at the handful of people I've stopped talking to in my life (& feel blessed it's a small number) I'm not angry at them, and they're truly forgiven for the mistakes they made, which were no bigger than mine. I hope they're all happy. But sometimes a relationship just runs it course. Sometimes, the understanding arrived at is, no matter how much I cared about X, his/her core values were in conflict with mine. And too oppositional to peacefully co-exist in an ongoing way. I think there can be a lot of patience and compassion involved in kindly letting go of someone as the best means to avoid further hurt for either person.
Just one little take on (some of) the colors of silence...
Best,
LoH
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Hi LOH:
Good point. Kindly letting go may be the best, most loving thing to do sometimes. That's how I felt when I divorced.
I think what I mean is that sometimes, when communication stops, the end is inevitable.....when it may be that forgiveness and resolution of problems could happen.....if not for the silence.
I don't think there's a perfect formula or again.......an absolute that fits.
Thanks for pointing this out.
:D Sela
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Hiya Sela, why is this such tough thinking for me?
There are mistakes and there are poor choices:
A mistake is when you are not aware that your behaviour will have adverse consequences and when you do not intend those consequences? Like unknowingly giving bad food to someone and they become ill. So do you ask for forgiveness for a mistake? (Tricky, is a mistake your ‘fault’, responsibility?)
A poor choice is: eating prawns that smell off? Being aware that your actions may have awful consequences? Being aware that someone may be hurt (when another action could avoid that)?
Good differences there. Pming was a poor choice.
Sorry your boss did that to you. Not right or fair, P. I want to call him bad names.
Gosh he did much, much worse than that. That was very mild. He was sacked though, after I left, I was probably instrumental in that happening, but it was overdue. He wasn’t particularly awful as a person, merely stupid, ignorant and had an unrealistic image of himself. He was a bully too but I doubt he took any sick pleasure from it. I almost feel sorry for him. But not quite.
Forgiving is the opposite of blaming?
I understand what you say about we forgive to let go the blame I guess (and replace it with understanding); and wanting forgiveness to know that the other person has let go of their feelings.
It's just that some people do not choose to forgive until they are asked. So I ask. And some people expect others to ask before they consider giving forgiveness. It's hard for me to tell.....who wants what? So I ask.
I can see this. But I’ve not encountered it in life. I’ve only seen this when it’s been managed, in a formal situation and only on tv. I haven’t seen this happen. I think I have been tied up in the possible manipulations, such as:
Will you forgive me? - but the person doesn’t accept responsibility and is saying this as a standard line to stop conversation; or is saying it to stop the other person being angry, to stop them expressing themselves; or they are pretending to be contrite and understanding but will do the same thing again; said in certain way it means ‘please don’t punish me I didn’t mean it’ etc etc…
I forgive you – because I’m better than you and I have the power to forgive you, you don’t have any power. I forgive you because I’m morally superior and you’re a lesser mortal. I forgive you because you need forgiving, you’re so bad but you can’t help yourself. I forgive you because I don’t give a damn about what you’ve done, it doesn’t matter to me. I forgive you because you don’t understand yourself, but I understand you – better than you do…
I guess what those thoughts show is that whenever I tried to have a sensible human conversation along these lines, I ended up being confused whether I was near forgiving or being forgiven. This is a really tough idea for me, that forgiveness is a mutual thing, although I accept that it is, I just don’t see people doing it without being put in a room with a mediator of some kind. I haven’t mixed with anyone with this depth of understanding.
Why forgive? Because harbouring negative emotions hurts. How? By understanding. I can forgive my parents to an extent, but as they don’t understand that I think they require any forgiveness, it has to happen inside me, I have to let the bad feelings go. If they said ‘sorry’ that might be mutual and it would all be okay, but that ain’t gonna happen; but I don’t think that excludes me from partly forgiving them, by understanding them.
to ask for it seems out-of-sync
If I ask someone to forgive me, I’m judging them to be at a stage where they’re not angry or resentful any more. Isn’t that a bit presumptuous of me? Particularly as I’m the one who has made a poor choice? Or is this about power? If I ask for forgiveness, I’m putting myself at risk of you saying no. I guess ‘do you forgive me’ is a clarifying question though. I would rather say ‘do you think you will be able to forgive me?’. yah. Less onus on them.
LoH
Do you think that silence can also be a case of not having anything to say? Not talking, imho, can be a result of excellent understanding: a person can understand another's POV with clarity and still disagree wholeheartedly.
Like me and my parents? I’d rather be silent than talk to them now.
There may be few absolutes...
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Hiya P:
There really is so much to think about here eh? I've never examined it all this closely before. I guess I'm just living in some kind of mini-ignorant bliss :oops:.
So do you ask for forgiveness for a mistake? (Tricky, is a mistake your ‘fault’, responsibility?)
I've always thought of forgiveness as a kind of gift. A gift I give others. A gift I give myself. A gift others give me.
And if I make a mistake......in ignorance and it causes unintentional hurt to someone else......I feel responsible.
Maybe that's not the right way to feel but it is what I feel. I guess I think: "It's not their fault" and "It's no one's fault" but in my over-responsible way......I take the blame.......I feel sorry for hurting them, even though by mistake........and so I hope by saying so......they will forgive me.
Suddenly......I remember something that happened in my life. My mother and her sister were very close, emotionally, but they lived 500 km away from eathother. Still.....they managed to visit......both families......as often as possible. We used to go to their place for a couple of weeks in the summer and they used to come to ours for the same. We went at Christmas and Easter and Thanksgiving. Thus, I spent a lot of my time with my cousins (a girl, two years younger, who I felt close with, and a boy, the same age, who seemed jealous of our closeness and out to sabotage it---once ...he told her she was allergic to me and she believed him, but that's another story).
Anyway.......my girl cousin and I spent all this time together and in between we were allowed to phone, long distance, and we wrote letters. We wrote endearing things and shared our deepest secrets, feelings, etc.
Then tragedy struck. My aunt, mom's sister, died, very suddenly. She was only 46 years old.
We were at their place and the adults decided they would drive to our place, 500 km south. My mom had a new car and had never driven all that way.....up and back before and she was nervous. And I wanted to go to the pancake house. There is was on the left side of the road and I shouted: "There it is!!" and my mom stepped on her brakes too quickly and my uncle and aunt's car, behind us.....bumped into us. There was no real damage to either vehicle.
A day after we all arrived at our place, my aunt had a diabetic reaction and went into a coma. She was rushed to the hospital. She was unconscious for a week and then died.
My boy cousin, who was 11, told my girl cousin, who was 9, that it was my fault their mother had died because if I hadn't wanted and yelled to go to the pancake house, their mother would not have been put through the shock of that accident and that's what caused her to go into her coma and later die.
I tried and tried to keep in touch with those two cousins and my uncle after my aunt died (as did my mother). As I grew up, I kept trying.
They were cold and uncommunicative until finally........my boy cousin blurted out that this was the reason why!! I was responsible for their mother's death and that was that. I apologized, explained that I was a kid and it was a mistake. I was sorry and sure didn't mean to cause such a thing to happen (even though....I know it's ridiculous.......and this was probably not the cause of her death). I took full responsibility for my "mistake" and begged for forgiveness. Nothing I said or could say or do would ever change their minds. And I, after trying and trying some more, finally gave up and we lost touch.
So ya.......you are so right about how tricky it is about who's fault is who's and what's what P. In my cousin's heads........I was at fault. It would have done me no good not to take on the fault, I think. It would have proved to them how selfish I was.......just like I was when I wanted to go to the pancake house, instead of picking a place on the right side of the road, the easier side to turn off on, or let someone else decide where to go to eat. I was, in their minds (and voices because they did say all of this)......selfish and responsible for her death. The only possible way I could see of ever keeping communication open long enough for real understanding to come.........was to express my sorrow.......take on the blame......and beg for forgiveness.
Had I argued: "No. It wasn't my fault. These things happen. She was diabetic. It was her disease that killed her. Not the shock of that small accident. I was a kid. Give me a break. etc"
Wouldn't they have proof of my selfishness......my not being a responsible person.......
I couldn't change their belief. And they were kids when this horrible thing happened to them. They lost the mother they loved with all of their little hearts. They were both devastated. The despair was immense. They needed someone or something to blame because they were just kids too. And I reminded them of what life used to be like......every time they heard from me.....every time I tried to connect with them......I have a feeling......it hurt just hearing from me.
It was kinder to let them go.......to give up and easier for them......not to have me around.
It didn't do me any good to take responsibility for a mistake or a mistaken belief but it might have...it could have....maybe? I don't know. I still don't know what would have helped. Maybe there is nothing? It was the only gift I could think of to give them.
Gosh he did much, much worse than that. That was very mild. He was sacked though, after I left, I was probably instrumental in that happening, but it was overdue. He wasn’t particularly awful as a person, merely stupid, ignorant and had an unrealistic image of himself. He was a bully too but I doubt he took any sick pleasure from it. I almost feel sorry for him. But not quite.
Sounds like an awful experience. Did it leave scars? I'm glad he's fired!! There are too many bully bosses!!
Will you forgive me? - but the person doesn’t accept responsibility and is saying this as a standard line to stop conversation;
Oh Yes! Particularly some abusers eh? The plead for forgiveness, with who knows what intentions, but they don't do a thing to change the way they behave.....take no steps to correct their behaviour. It destroys trust.
I forgive you – because I’m better than you and I have the power to forgive you, you don’t have any power. I forgive you because I’m morally superior and you’re a lesser mortal. I forgive you because you need forgiving, you’re so bad but you can’t help yourself. I forgive you because I don’t give a damn about what you’ve done, it doesn’t matter to me. I forgive you because you don’t understand yourself, but I understand you – better than you do…
I feel sad thinking this has been your experience. The words: "I forgive you" could be a real trigger that start the wheels of mistrust turning eh?
What I mean, when I say I forgive you is:
I forgive you because I understand and believe you meant no harm, made a poor choice, had misleading thoughts and aren't perfect. I'm not perfect either and have done the same thing (made mistakes, poor choices, had weird thoughts that lead me in the wrong direction) so that makes it easier for me to understand. I forgive you because I believe you have learned and will do your best not to do the same thing again. I forgive you because I believe you are a good person who is only trying to behave as well as you can, like most other people probably are. Like I am. I forgive you because I'm your friend and I want to understand and I don't want to have angry feelings or resentment in me against you and have no reason to, now that you've explained and I understand. I forgive you because I believe you are sorry for the hurt I felt, regardless of blame but because you are thinking of me and my pain and not focussing on defending yourself but on doing what you can to help me feel better. The least gift I can give you in return and to myself is to forgive, under the circumstances. It almost seems more selfish than generous, considering how well you've handled the situation.
I don't want to be selfish and hope you feel better too. Is there anything I can say that would help you? Anything bothering you that it might help to talk about, in regard to this whole thing? Or maybe better by pm? Let me know, please?
This is a really tough idea for me, that forgiveness is a mutual thing, although I accept that it is, I just don’t see people doing it without being put in a room with a mediator of some kind. I haven’t mixed with anyone with this depth of understanding.
I keep saying it takes two to tango but it surely does, doesn't it? I think it does. Communication is hard work. You did your share.......I did mine........right? We don't give up easily P. 8) That's gotta be a good thing.
I'm sure people do it all the time. That's how they stay married for 75 years. That's how great life long friendships happen. Maybe not about every little thing......all this understanding and communicating......but that's the really big and generous thing about forgiving. Sometimes, small stuff is forgiven without much fuss at all. And a lot of small stuff....can add up to a big mess, so maybe it's a good thing to just forgive it along the way? That's what I imagine. Mind you, I haven't been married for 75 years and I don't have a life long friend, so there you go.
If I ask someone to forgive me, I’m judging them to be at a stage where they’re not angry or resentful any more. Isn’t that a bit presumptuous of me?
I suppose so. Timing can be really tricky. The way I think I usually say it is......."I hope you will forgive me or be able to find it in your heart to forgive me......or one day forgive me". I think I'm also expressing my desire to connect again, especially, if I've taken responsibility for my behaviour, expressed my remorse, offered to do whatever possible to make up for the damage I've caused, and am willing to take steps to ensure I don't repeat my behaviour. At that point, and depending on the person/situation.......it seems reasonable to hope or express that hope for their forgiveness.
But you are absolutely right that it is definitely the other person's choice whether to forgive or not, when they feel ready and able.
Or is this about power? If I ask for forgiveness, I’m putting myself at risk of you saying no. I guess
I think that too. I mean, they can now bring down the hammer on your head and say: "Nope. Never in a million years". Making all of your efforts seem invaluable. All your explaining....a waste of good air.......and all your other indications of being responsible/making amends........unworthy. They can do that. Yep. Big power there, I think.
Like me and my parents? I’d rather be silent than talk to them now.
Thing is.......they aren't likely to come to you.....begging for forgiveness.....showing remorse for their behaviour, taking responsibility and all the rest of it, are they? So the real question is.........
Do you now........forgive them.....anyway?
Or do you hold onto your feelings of anger and resentment and only show them......by being silent?
Or is the silence a way of protecting yourself from any more of their harmful behaviour (or neglect/whatever)?
And do you forgive.......release whatever feelings are tormenting you.....for your own good?
Selfish?
How can I possibly say that? I just like to. It's good to be selfish, in this instance, imo.
((((((((((((P)))))))))))))) This feels like another 20,000'er. :roll:
:D Sela
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Hi ((((P & S & S)))))). I know I posted this once but I can't find the old one. Hope it's OK to repeat. I know it was a huge help to me. You guys are already there and beyond, but maybe others who are newer here will find help in it. Hugs--Hops
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He still wakes up at night with the sound of his mothers’ voice in his ears. Cold, critical, belittling, the words she used to diminish every accomplishment, to tarnish every hope are still playing in his mind like a tape, even though she has lost the capacity for coherent speech now. When he thinks of her, his shoulders tense, his eyes dart. His face assumes a defensive, hostile tautness. He looks more like her than he cares to imagine.
She has tried to forget, but the accident left marks that go deeper than the long-healed bruises and the occasional ache from her broken arm and ribs. The headlights swerving in front of her, the screech of wheels, the words she shouted just before the collision. He was drunk, he was driving too fast, he lost control of his car. Up to that moment, she was happy, confident, secure in her sense of safety in the world. He went to jail for a few months and was fined. She has carried the consequences within her through all the years since, and she is still afraid every time she gets in a car.
The picture of those buildings falling, the sight of people jumping rather than facing the flames or the collapse, the flashes of terror we feel or imagine from all the desperate and doomed people inside the buildings or the airplanes – these remain imprinted on our national psyche, waiting to ambush us at unexpected moments. Along with them come images of people dancing and cheering over the hurt done to America, images of frightening-looking fanatical men in foreign-looking clothes pontificating on the righteousness of terrorists whose life is given for the sole purpose of taking other lives, martyrdom to the god of suffering and destruction.
We do harm to each other in so many ways -- small and great, misguided and purposeful, personal and impersonal. Each act of harm creates an imbalance, each act disfigures the fabric of humanity that weaves all women and men together. As a victim, I suffer a disruption of my life and my sense of self: Another person claims the right to treat me as an object, establishing power over my body, my actions, my choices, my inner life and my spirit. My worth in the world is denied by someone who uses violence, trickery, or some other coercive power to enforce their view.
But as the one who harms another, no matter what momentary feeling of power I might gain, my humanity is diminished as well. My harmful act fractures my relationship not only with my victim but with all of humankind. My connection with my community now depends on denial, on lies, on distortions of the truth I know. I carry shame, fear, and the self-knowledge that I am capable of actions I cannot genuinely justify.
How can we respond to all of this hurt? How do we restore what has been destroyed?
Our instincts, our culture, and our institutions all seem to provide a ready answer: We seek to restore justice by inflicting punishment. The parent who treated us badly is cut off, or subjected to continuous reminders of what they should have done better. The abuser or the sex offender becomes a pariah, marked for life. The criminal is stripped of liberty and rights, and confined to a jail that all too often shears away any last vestige of human compassion and dignity that might survive in them.
As for terrorists and their supporters, we have a special category for them. We write them clear out of the human family and declare ourselves exempt from all legal limits in pursuit of the retribution we know we are entitled to.
Does any of this move us toward healing the torn fabric of humanity?
There is another way.
There is an act with the power to correct the imbalance caused by harmful actions. There is an act with the power to restore the victim’s sense of self, an act with the power to bring the transgressor back into full membership in the family of humanity.
Forgiveness can do what retribution can never accomplish. Forgiveness can heal the spiritual wounds of the victim; forgiveness can restore the transgressor to the common life of the community. Forgiveness can transform antagonists on the brink of mutually assured destruction into partners creating a new world together.
Thich Nhat Hanh’s breathing meditation on our parents points toward the inner healing forgiveness makes possible. When someone hurts me, they project their own hurt, anger, and bitterness into me. I carry that person with me from then on. Even after they can no longer claim power over me, as long as I am unable to forgive that power remains. Refusing to forgive, I hold onto my hurt and my role as victim. To forgive in this context means to let go of my hurt and resentment, to surrender my desire to punish the one who hurt me, and to claim the power that only I have: The power to heal. To forgive means to say that my own healing and peace are more important to me than my sense of injury and outrage.
This kind of forgiveness doesn’t depend on the cooperation of the person who hurt you, and it doesn’t necessarily lead to an actual reconciliation. It is an inward matter, between you and the projection of that other person you carry inside. It can happen even if they have long since left your actual life -- even if they have died. As the meditation suggests, you can find them within you, and you can see their harmful act in the light of the suffering in them that led them to take such an action. You can offer them the compassion they needed for that suffering, the compassion that might have made them a different person. In that act of imaginative compassion you begin to heal yourself as well.
Ten years ago, in the first years after Nelson Mandela was elected President of South Africa, that country’s Truth and Reconciliation Commission became a laboratory for studying the power of forgiveness. The Commission’s Chair, the Anglican Archbishop Desmond Tutu, wrote a memoir of that time called No Future Without Forgiveness. For nearly three years, the Commissioners listened as hundreds of people described dreadful things that had happened to them under apartheid, and as hundreds of applicants for amnesty told harrowing stories of the wrongs they had done. In story after story, the healing power of honest acts of forgiveness is revealed, not just for the victims, but also for those who had harmed them. Here is one of those stories.
Amy Biehl was an American student, a Fulbright scholar from California attending the University of the Western Cape in South Africa. One day she drove friends home from school to Gugulethu, one of the townships that served as ghettos for black South Africans under apartheid. In an outbreak of violent street protest, she was attacked and killed by a mob of youths. When the young men who took part in the attack applied to the Commission for amnesty, Amy’s parents supported their petition and became involved with the families of the murderers. A few years later Linda and Peter Biehl established the Amy Biehl Foundation, an organization providing education and training for young people in Gugulethu, with the goal of keeping them away from criminal violence and giving them hope for better lives. One of the killers has become a trainer and leader in a Foundation program, and he sees the Biehls regularly when they travel to South Africa. Their forgiveness saved his life, and now he is helping them save other lives as well.
When forgiveness is meant to lead to reconciliation as well as inner healing, Tutu says, then the cooperation of the transgressor is necessary. There must be an honest accounting of what happened. Just telling the truth of what happened to them begins to reconstruct the broken autonomy of the victim, and the act of confession and asking for forgiveness begins to restore the buried, distorted humanity of the perpetrator. Then some agreement for restoration must be made: How will the one who has done harm work with her or his victims to restore what they have destroyed? Everyone must acknowledge what cannot be made better, and then everyone must agree that some reparations must be made. This form of restorative, rather than retributive justice is what made the Truth and Reconciliation process unique.
Could our own criminal justice system be transformed by such a practice?
Tutu repeatedly argues that people like Linda and Peter Biehl are not saintly, not some special kind of person different from you or me. They are ordinary people caught up in extraordinary times, who make one remarkable choice: The choice to forgive in the face of pain, instead of demanding retribution. It is that choice that is extraordinary, and its power unleashes extraordinary events.
Over and over, Tutu and the other Commission members witnessed the power of forgiveness to transform anger into reconciliation, hatred into restored relationship, enmity into peace. From his experiences with the Commission he argues that forgiveness has the power not just to reconcile individuals, but to restore an entire society which had been disfigured by horrific atrocities to some hope of moving forward. Without the Commission, he is convinced, South Africa could never have made a peaceful transition from white supremacy to a genuinely representative, multiracial government.
In my preparations for today, I came across two versions of a story. In one version two soldiers stand before the Vietnam Veteran’s memorial in Washington. In another version two Holocaust survivors are talking together. The conversation in both versions is the same. “Have you forgiven them?” one friend says to the other. “Yes, I have,” the other one says. “Well, I haven’t.” the first one replies. “I still remember everything they did to me, and I will never forgive them for it.” There is a pause, and the second friend says gently, “Then it seems they still have you in prison, don’t they?”
Is there a prison in your life? Are you carrying hurt from something that happened to you, resentment over something someone said or did? Are you angry with someone right now? All of us have been victims of harm at some time – and all of us have been transgressors who need to ask for forgiveness. The hurt, the resentment, the anger are prison walls, locking us away from our own best selves, keeping us bound up in the event that still gives us so much pain.
Anger and retribution will never heal the spirit of a survivor of a neglectful, or cruel, or abusive family. Only forgiveness can do that. Anger and retribution will never restore someone who has done wrong to their place as a full participant in the community. Only forgiveness and restitution can do that. Anger and retribution will never end the cycles of terrorism and counterattack that now seem to threaten everyone in the world. Only forgiveness and the creation of a world community with justice, equity, and compassion for all will do that. And that community cannot be created by anger, or by force of arms, or by retribution. Only forgiveness has that power.
All of us have prisons in our own lives. We did not build the walls. But we can take them down.
(sermon by a Unitarian minister)
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Hi Hops:
What a lovely sermon. I love it.
Thankyou so much for posting it again. I missed it the first time.
:D Sela