Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: IamNewtoMe on May 30, 2006, 02:46:12 PM
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Hi all,
I have been wrestling with issues surrounding co-opting lately, and I hoped some of you might feel like sharing your thoughts and experiences, too.
Here is where I am coming from right now. I am a little unclear on what co-opting means, but I think it must have to do with boundary issues - like when someone wants what you have, so they take it, or take credit for it, etc.
As I was growing up and even now, I am just realizing my Nmom co-opted/stole lots of things from me. Here are some examples:
Example #1. I could never understand why I hate it when she complimented me or showed me off to her friends and boyfriends. It should have felt good to finally get some form of approval, but I detested it and felt guilty about detesting it. I now realize that on some level, I recognized her compliments as either manipulative lies, or attempts to aggrandize herself (my daughter accomplished X, so I must be a great mother; or my daughter is cute and sexy, she must take after me, etc. - I think this is what was in her head). I felt like any speck of goodness, or skill, or positive attribute I dared to possess actually belonged to her; she stole it.
Example #2. My Nmom now compliments me on what a great job she thinks I am doing raising my daughter. Again, I should be glad for this, but I am not. She thinks my daughter is unusually smart. I feel like she wants to groom my daughter to be her Golden Child (reminds me of how she groomed my brother as the Golden Child). It makes my skin crawl. I can’t stand the thought of my mother using my daughter to aggrandize herself. But I don’t know how to stop her. I don’t know what to say.
Example #3. Another, more frivolous example is about material things. My Nmom loves to buy things, and is very specific about what gifts she would like to receive from me. If someone has something that she admires, she can’t rest until she possesses that object or one identical to it. My best friend gave me a lovely and expensive perfume for my wedding. My friend picked it out just for me; she put a lot of thought into it, and it was a very special, personal gift. Well, my mom smelled it on me one day and asked that I buy her some of the same perfume for her birthday. When I objected, saying that it was a very personal gift and I wanted it for my own, she belittled me. Though I felt proud that I attempted to stand up to her, the old self-talk told me I was being oversensitive and oversentimental. I agonized for weeks over what to do, finally giving her an equally nice, expensive perfume that reminded me of her: a useless attempt to connect and do something thoughtful and personal for her. I put a lot of thought (and anguish) into it, but I doubt she ever wore it.
Example #4. I have worked hard to get where I am in terms of my education and my career. I can objectively look at what I have done and see that it is a lot. I should feel proud, but I don’t feel like the accomplishments are really mine. I think I did most of it, not for myself, but to get recognition and acceptance from my FOO. Right now I am working on another academic degree, but have stalled out in the past couple years. I work at a snail’s pace. I can’t find motivation in the old ways, and I have yet to find new, healthier motivations. I think I am afraid that if I finish, I won’t feel like it’s really my accomplishment.
In short, I feel like she's stolen my voice and my experiences and my self-esteem, and kept them for herself.
Sorry this is so long, thanks for reading.
I would love to hear your own thoughts and experiences with co-opting, and perhaps what to do about it, if you feel like sharing.
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Hiya Iamnewtome....
I think that you are doing really well... I didn't realise that there was the word co-opted, but it does make a lot of sense.
It sounds to me like you have already got solid boundaries re: your Mum and your daughter and I can relate to your post loads.
I felt like any speck of goodness, or skill, or positive attribute I dared to possess actually belonged to her; she stole it.
Like she is seeing you as an object, not a person? Therefore if your an object and she thinks she owns you so to speak, why shouldn't she own your achievements too huh? This is one of the things which really frustrated me with my bio dad... until I came to realise that as far as he's concerned the only reason I'm on this planet is so he can gain. Nothing about me as a person, nothing about who I am.
It's funny what you say about the perfume too.... at my wedding last year, Mum tried on some of my perfume which a friend bought me for my 30th birthday... she then asked for the same perfume from my brother for her birthday. Do you feel you're being petty if you say something? That's how I feel.
Have you thought about why you don't feel the accomplishments you've achieved are yours? Are you doing something you enjoy? Or are you doing something because you feel you ought to? If you've worked hard and achieved so much (which it sounds like you have to me), why shouldn't you be proud? Because you don't deserve to be proud? Because if you were proud it would be tainted by your mum?
Take care
H&H xx
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Hi IamNewtoMe,
I hear you. It sounds like eventhough you're aware of the effects of her co-opting (taking credit) (ex: by protesting to get second degree), you're wondering how to take back the joy of accomplishment toward your own sense of your own life. Is this close?
Are you feeling
Anansi
p.s. thank you for protecting your daughter!
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Hi IAmNewtoMe,
I've never heard of the term co-opting before, but your description sounds similar to what my Mom did and continues to do to me. I remember as a child being told to watch what I did and said because everything I did was a reflection on her. Yuck. :shock: She would shame/belt us for childish things we said, and she would act like she cared for us soooooooo much when others were around, but when they'd leave we were of no use to her. It's like they put on a show for the world to see how great they are and we have to play the part as kids or pay the price. Does this sound similar to what you are experiencing?
MS
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Dear New2...
Even if she stole them...TAKE THEM BACK!
You can. They are yours. You can you can you can.
I know exactly how that feels. I was evidence of NMom's propriety and femininity. Igggghhh.
When I found my most serious calling (poetry)...NMom, who writes treacly sappy rhyming doggerel, began churning out more of it than ever.
Siggghhh.
Hops
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Hi IAmNewtoMe,
The emotional games still go on but not the physical stuff. That ended a long time ago, I have three kids of my own now. I limit the amount of time my children are with her and am in therapy and doing okay. Your post seemed so familiar to me though, like you had experienced the same things. My mom believes everything I do is about her. If I do well, she takes the credit, and if I don't, she thinks that has something to do with her too. Like your mom, she loves to shop...... she buys things constantly and believes image is everything. What's interesting too is that she will buy things for my sister and I that she knows we don't need or use, but they are things she loves. Make up for example. We don't wear it and she knows we don't, but she won't go anywhere without it. For Christmas, she got us make up. For me and my siblings, it felt like we were objects that she pulled out when she needed and discarded when she didn't. I did learn not to tell mom much. My thoughts are my own and she can't take what she doesn't know about. I don't want to say too much more. This thread is yours and I don't want to hijack it in any way. Just wanted you to know that it feels like we're coming from similar backgrounds.
IAmNewtoMe.... your accomplishments are your own. Her attempting to take credit for them doesn't make them less yours, that's a fantasy of hers... and it doesn't discount your hard work in any way.
You've found a really great board here. I posted back in March and the responses I got were most helpful. You'll find a lot of support here.
Hi Hops, it's TTC.... changed my name because I'm coping better now. Loved your 'TAKE THEM BACK" statement. You're always right on target.
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Hi IAmNewtoMe,
Each post you write makes me feel less alone. I understand completely about the pots. I'm glad to reclaimed your kitchen! Last August my Dad called me in panic. My grandmother is in her ninety's and is unable to live alone. She had moved in with my parents and my father was taking care of her. He told me that Mom had given him 6 weeks to decide where to put my grandmother. He told me mom told him the only reason he wanted to take care of her was because he was trying to save his inheritance, and he should find a good nursing home to put her in. If you knew my dad you'd know how ridiculous this was. My father spends what he has on others and rarely gets himself anything. Plus, he doesn't stand to inherit alot to begin with. I told him to bring her to my house and she was here 2 days later and has been ever since. It works out well for us, I enjoy her and my children enjoy her. But... mom's arguing with my dad about putting her a nursing home again... why??? Because it looks bad that I am caring for her rather than them. :shock:
Do you have any coping tricks? I have a few and they work sometimes, other times it's harder. One I do is remind myself that she is sick. I've done so much obsessing in the past about whether she can help the way she is and trying to be this or that way to please her or whether those with NPD can ever change etc. etc. It just works out better to tell myself she's sick, these are her symptoms and there is nothing I can do to change it. I wouldn't get mad at a tree because I loved it and it couldn't love me back. It's just a tree. It has no capability of loving me. And I think about how my mom's like a tree. It doesn't mean I don't get angry... I do ... alot... but sometimes it works for me. I also have a journal where I journal healthy attitudes, and of course the therapy and medication. Someone on the board said "Reality is my best friend" Sorry, I can't remember who :( but I've been thinking about how true that is lately.
How about you? Do you having coping tricks? If so I'd love to hear them.
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HI MS, and welcome back!!
So glad you have coped so well and are continuing...
I think you have many good strategies going already...
I think reminding yourself that she's sick is good. I tend to think of it as more a missing limb...an emotional limb that simply isn't there. (Might come from the old saw, can't waltz with a one-legged man...no offense to anyone).
I think of my mom as someone who's operating mostly on the surface. I kill her with cheer. I have developed a cheerful but distracted air when she goes on about her stuff. And I usually am poised to tell her I have to go back upstairs to do extra work. The authority of "work" will get her to leave me be.
Not sure I recall enough about your Nmother to know...but I'd say, move your Dad in too!
Hugs,
Hops
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Like she is seeing you as an object, not a person? Therefore if your an object and she thinks she owns you so to speak, why shouldn't she own your achievements too huh? This is one of the things which really frustrated me with my bio dad... until I came to realize that as far as he's concerned the only reason I'm on this planet is so he can gain. Nothing about me as a person, nothing about who I am.
H&H,
Yes, this is a good description - I feel like an object... I am sorry to hear that your dad treated you that way. It sounds very similar to my mom. She finds me useful when I reflect well on her. She treats me like a piece of junk when I am not useful to her. And working from what you said, if I feel like she owns me, I feel like she owns my accomplishments, too. I am beginning to think that I am sabotaging myself in a desperate attempt to break free of her. Ugh. It's so self-defeating, I feel disgusted. It's so confusing.
And about the perfume example - How did you feel when you mom wanted your perfume (or one just like it)? I find it interesting, too that a) she asked for it as a gift instead of just buying it for herself, and b) she asked your brother in particular for it. Its sounds like you wanted to say something, but felt you were being petty? Did I interpret that correctly? If you were upset, I don't think you were being petty at all. I think its reasonable to want a very personal gift to stay personal, just for you. But, yes, I felt petty when I first objected to my mom's actions. Maybe it wouldn't seem like a big deal to someone raised in a normal, emotionally healthy family. But when I look at what she did in the context of all her other abusive actions, I see that co-opting perfume is just another sick symptom of her problems.
Hiya hon....
Yes I did feel petty, which is why I didn't say anything to them. I did kinda think, well it's only perfume and it would cause me more stress to say something than not.... I think you're right, it's not a big deal to someone raised in a normal and emotionally healthy family (actually is there one? Is there a normal family or do all families have some sort of dysfunction?). I'm sorry this is short, but I didn't want you to think that I wasn't responding...
Take care
H&H xx
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MS,
Sometimes I feel I am being manipulative, but I think a certain amount is necessary for self preservation.
ABSO-FLIPPIN-LOOTLY!!!!!!!!
In the life of a child of a toxic N such as your mother, manipulation of any sort to protect your psyche and shore up your boundaries is a loving, positive, healing and dignified tool. NOBODY could withstand the constant draining exhausting battling it would take to detach an N who is sucking on your soul like a leech with every encounter.
I'm tellin' ya: manipulation, pizza delivery lies, all are forgiven, honorable, dignified ways to cope. NOBODY who runs the universe would to anything but clap their cloudy hands at your courage.
Authority of work, authority of pizza, authority of "I'm going to go throw up now"--whatever it takes, and let it become a self-loving habit. You gotta. She is like a Venus flytrap and you are NOT HER BUG DU JOUR.
I also think the perfume thing, and setting it up as a gift from a male (no matter if it's your brother)...is a pretty blatant co-opting of your sexuality too. That's why it's creepy to me. She's competing. Ick. (My NMom nearly elbows me out of the room when her gentleman friend comes to call...though he and I are fond friends, we barely chat in her presence because she turns into an iceberg. It was the same way with my Dad...took me decades to learn, and then in therapy, that she always wedged herself between us. I finally starting taking him out to lunch and he was bewildered. But we enjoyed it!)
digressing...sorry,
Hops
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Hi Hops...
That was IAmNewtoMe's quote and I agree. Think I'll add it to my list. Struggling today, I panicked, posted, deleted my post, and trying to keep my voice despite my panic attack. :shock: It's those silly old tapes that keep playing in head :x This too will pass...
Hugs to All..
MS
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MountainSpring,
I am sorry, that was really careless of me.
I wasn't paying close attention. Too busy yakking.
I'm sorry you're feeling panicky, hon. You are safe...
(I have anxiety disorder, and had panic attacks for years. They've
gone away in recent years...I hope your panics calm down too.
Just wanting to send you hope...I know you'll get in charge of
your own tapes. You really will.)
IamNew...I'm sorry to you, too!
When I get home tonight and can edit it I'll put the name right.
Feel like a twit,
Hops
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Can't fix it after all...can't modify a post I did as "guest."
foo.
Hops
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No apologies needed Hops... I've done that myself. Thanks for the hope... I'm sending you back some for the job you're looking for.
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Hi Hops,
No worries about the misattribution. It is very easy to do in this format. But I loved what you said! It really helps assuage the guilt, at least a little. "bug du jour" ha! I'll keep that one in my head for along time!
The thing about your dad sounds entirely like what I was thinking of with co-opting. Like your mom would have stolen him from you if she could have. I am glad to hear you are able to spend time with him or your (yours and his) terms now.
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Hi MountainSpring,
I am sorry to hear about your panic attack. In time I know you will be able to keep your voice and reclaim your sense of peace. Hang in there!
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Hi IAmNewtoMe,
What I was going to post a couple days ago before my panic attack so rudely interrupted me (sometimes making light of these things makes them smaller! :D) was your comment about reality. About seeing your accomplishments as they really are instead of hearing the old tapes. Sometimes visualizing it helps me. Seeing your accomplishments in your head as they really are. Sometimes if I talk back to the old tapes it helps, and sometimes I'll type what the old tape says on my computer, try to figure a heathier way, and type the healthier way of thinking over and over and over and over. (It takes lots of attacking the old tape to get it to budge!) Am I making sense?
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I lost my mom to cancer when I was 14 and she was 43. While I feel sorry for you that you have a flawed relationship with your mother, I feel really envious that you have one at all. Where there is life, there is hope (in general). Have you been able to speak with your mother about your feelings? Is she receptive? I really hope you and she will stand in better stead with one another soon.
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. My brother and his wife finally had enough and used this as an excuse to finally just tell her - Look Mom, you're undependable, and we need someone to be dependable as we have very busy hectic lives (they both work and were both going to graduate school too for awhile), so we're going to use X as a babysitter from now on - she gets paid to be dependable and it's easier for us as we can count on her. Then, we don't always have to be worrying about the change of "plan."
OH I JUST JUMPED UP N DOWN WITH JOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY WHEN I READ THIS! BRAVO BROTHER AND SISTER IN LAW, FOR STANDING UP TO THAT N !
(my Mom uses this word loosely, it means whatever anybody else can do to accommodate her ). As you can guess, N Mom retaliated by attacking them and telling everyone including me (I actually sympathized with her at the time, she started crying and everything) "they're preventing me from seeing my grandsons!!"
THIS IS TO BE EXPECTED FROM AN N FOR SURE
2) Always be present with your N Mom and daughter. I would do this anyway. I know how my N Mom used to smack us around, and I'd be scared to death of what she might do to my kids
GREAT ADVICE HERE, BEAN!
And...the most dramatic option, and I don't know if this is one for you or not, it likely depends on where you live and the laws there (in some states "grandparents have RIGHTS" I've been told by my - in a similar situation - friend)
3) Cut off your N Mom completely. Why does she need to see your daughter at all? Who really benefits from this time? If no one, what's the point? Your daughter will likely not regret never having the relationship with her grandmother that could never be anyway. This is the key thing to remember: you daughter would never have a "normal" healthy relationship with her anyway; so it's not like you're preventing something from happening that actually ever has a chance of happening!
YES YES AND YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS! GET YOUR CHILD AWAY FROM THIS PERSON! SHE IS TOXIC AND NOT GOOD FOR HER TO BE WITH. I AGREE 100% WITH BEAN, AND THIS WAS MY FAVORITE OF ALL BEAN'S RESPONSES TO YOU. YOU HAVE A RESPONSIBILITY TO PROTECT YOUR DAUGHTER FROM GOING THROUGH WHAT YOU DID. BRING DOWN THE WALL BETWEEN THEM BOTH, SO YOUR DAUGHTER HAS A CHANCE AT A NORMAL CHILDHOOD WITHOUT A CONTROLLING GRANDPARENT WHO IS TOXIC.
[. I'd cut the grandmother off completely, but that's me. In the long run it will be healthier for both you and your daughter (and if you're married your husband too).
It would probably be better for your daughter to imagine the fantasy "good" relationship she might have had with grandma..
I have to disagree here. I don't believe that leaving a child to fantasize that someone was good that isn't, is a healthy thing to do. I'm glad it didn't harm you doing it, bean, but I don't agree with it. It's always best to be honest and tell the truth to your children about other people and situations. What would happen if one day your daughter met this lady and found out that she was an N...she might then blame YOU for not being up-front with her from the start, about the N'ism in the family. Just my thought on this.
ReallyME
Laura
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It sounds like you are making a healthy choice of protecting your daughter. I realize that no-contact is not always the answer for everyone. Like I always say, "If you can't let go, then hold on LOOSELY"
~Laura RM
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New,
Thanks for the kind comment regarding my mother. It has been tremendously difficult since she died. There are studies that actually show that my demographic typically has a great deal of difficulties in relationships and at work. Someone at the Smith School for Social Work wrote her thesis on just that issue, in case you are in the least bit interested. Regarding your relationship with your mother, it does seem the only hope is for you to have good boundaries coupled with a long-distance rapport. Estrangement does not sound so bad in this case. Does she like presents? Sometimes I think it's grand to surprise one's parent(s) to let them know one is thinking of him or her.