Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Avery on January 29, 2004, 07:00:21 PM
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I feel compelled to address an issue that has become recurrent on this board. There is an individual, who I will not name at this point, who seems intent on chastising and reprimanding the people who write to this board for comfort and/or advice. I believe it is extremely important that the individuals who write to this board can do so without fear of being ridiculed, or made to feel as if they are burdening the other posters. People are coming here to find shelter from this type of behavior, not receive more of it. :x We are all here to help each other and I, for one, would like to know that I can read/write into this board and find friends. If you can't find something helpful and positive to say to help another...why are you posting??!!!
Avery
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this is interesting. Since the guru wannabee stuff I have felt there is a presence here which IS malignant, and less than helpful.
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Excellent points, Jacmac. I guess I just needed to vent and make it public that I don't think berating someone who needs help is right...I read a couple of posts today and I got really mad! I felt so bad for the people that were asking for help! You are right, though...what can we do but ignore them? I just wanted everyone to know that all of us aren't like that and that we truly are here to help and offer support. Thanks for the reply...you're really good at finding a way to learn something from every experience...I need to practice that.
Avery
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I totally understand!
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bye
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Avery,
Are you handling the Superbowl frenzy ok? Well, I have not thought of it as a dark presence here (after our Nmothers can there be anything darker?) but I have sometimes wondered who all these "guest" postings are -- and what all that arguing about being kicked off some other board was all about, but I read and post here to be a ventor and a ventee. I have gained a tremendous amount of knowledge and do in fact feel better since joining this group. I think that for each of us our "reality" is personal and special only to us and how we perceive it to be. This is a cyber world, built on the abstract and I don't put any more into it than that. I feel no pressure here and nobody is forced to read a post, even if it is addressed to them. Given the backgrounds from which most of us come, a less than encouraging message on a forum should be easy to ignore.
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Hi Portia - I haven't been reading the board for some time so I don't know who or what is being referred to here but I'm quite sure it isn't you.
I've had a quick look to see what you might have posted today and I see that you have been clear, assertive and truthful.
And I know how being clear and assertive can make the 'victim' of an N (that's you and me) feel fearful that the world will fall down around our ears (because we know that Ns don't like our truth and punish us for it)!! I have been there myself.
Take heart that being clear and truthful is NOT damaging to normal souls - you are simply fearing that others will react like the Ns in your life.
And if you read the posts on this thread carefully you will see that they are referring in particular to some anonymous 'guest' - so that's not you, either!
Courage, mon brave! Stick with your truth even tho it makes you feel anxious. The rest of us 'victims of Ns' love you for it cos we're struggling to speak our truth, too. :-)
R
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Portia dear, I really don't think this reference by Avery was to you.
Avery - I have re-read through some recent posts and honestly, I am having trouble identifying the individual that you are implicating. However, I may not be as sensitive as others so I think it is good that you are drawing attention to it if you think someone is being hurtful.
There are a couple of people here that have always had a more direct way of pointing things out that sometimes we cannot see ourselves, and quite honestly I find it refreshing. I know personally, I have welcomed when someone has metaphorically slapped me in the face here with a "snap out of it!" approach! As victims of Ns we sometimes tend to stick our head in the proverbial sand of denial.
I don't think this is what you are referring to however, and those people usually name themselves (I am not afraid of naming example names since they've been helpful to me - Bunny and Rosencrantz? ) Additionally, I don't think that "critical" is the word that would be accurate to describe those two posters anyway. So my guess is you are referring to someone relatively new that is not clearly identified.
Anyway, just wanted to "exonerate" a couple of the people that express themselves very directly here and that I find helpful on this board in case their was any question in their minds. Hopefully others agree with me.
Additionally, now that you have drawn attention to this situation I'm sure the rest of us regulars will definitely keep a watchful eye. Mean-spirited people are not welcome here.
In the meantime, for newcomers or anyone feeling unsafe, remember you don't have to allow people's opinions here to penetrate. Take advice and support with a grain of salt - you can take only what you want and leave the rest for someone else. It is a good test to trust your new found voice, too - and learn better how to identify if something is making you feel "wrong".
I think the fact that people like Avery are here looking out for each of us confirms that this truly IS a safe place - because the minute something feels "wrong" it is met with strength!
Thanks for the heads up!
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testing this name
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another test, I'm tryin to get to the bottom of this! sorry...just let me mutter to myself here...Portia
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Hi Portia!
I am truly sorry if I have in anyway caused you any anxiety. I can only speak for myself, of course, but I was not thinking of you when I responded to Avery's post, just speaking in general.
Hey, I can be as confrontational as the best of them, but I find that I am pretty good at discerning whether that will be helpful to the person I am speaking to or whether that person just needs a good old fashioned hug. Now, that's my approach, but my approach may not always work, or be the best approach, so it's great to have others with different approaches as well. And I think the fact that you "felt sick to your stomach" at the thought that we might have been referring to you takes you out of the "mean-spirited" poster category. Such a person would say, "Screw you and what you think." or atleast would think it, that's my opinion.
Yes, some times pissing someone off is the best way to make an impression. I find that I'll sit back and fume, and them self-relfection sneaks up on me, and in a room with my therapist we explore whether or not that person is right!
Some people, however, haven't learned how to do that, and are very good at beating themselves up. Maybe there's a better way to be direct. I don't know. I think your posts were direct, but not offensive. I was speaking about an anonymous "Guest" with narcisstic undertones to their advice. But hey, I could be wrong about that as well.
Alas, I am infallably human!!!! :(
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Ooops, that's me above! I can't log in on this computer.
And I'm still trying to figure out if that makes sense "infallably human"
or should I have said "fatally human" -- oh, well, you guys know what I mean. I hope. :oops:
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Portia,
"Guest" is probably a default sign in. The only way not to allow postings from "guest" would be for the board owner to block the ability for people who are not logged in to post. That can only be done by the administrator of the site. That is the way most messageboards work.
Hope that helps.
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I haven't posted in awhile, although i have been reading to posts. I want to weigh in on this topic since I was on the Npartners board and was one of the people who was kicked off.
I happen to agree with CC. Some members are more direct in their approach. I haven't found anything offensive to date.
I think that it is the responsibility of the person who is feeling slighted to speak up to the person whom they believe slighted them. Hopefully, that will put an end to any bad feelings. We must assume that advice is given in our best interests. Just as therapists have different styles of communication, so do members of this board. If someone communicates in a way that makes you uncomfortable, it is the poster's choice to ignore the advice.
Personally, I welcome straight advice. It is my style of communication and it resonates with me. I realize it isn't the same for eveyone. but, to start singling out members and chastize them for a different communication style is wrong, and was the problem with the Npartners board.
There is room for everybody and all opinions.
Hope
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bye
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Hi everybody,
well, golly, I want to chime in or else I will feel left out. :D
Well, I'm glad of all the posts here. Sounds like Avery started a thread that got everyone to take a step back and review how we're doing. was a little afraid of finding a flame-a-thon. Glad to see that didn't happen, although I hope we can all help a few folks return to their comfort zone.
Like any form of communication, we can all miscommunication and misinterpret stuff. We're human and we can just get it wrong sometimes. And maybe it isn't "wrong" just different. When I read people's responses to the same query or post, I find it so valuable and damn interesting how different we all are as we sort through our stuff. And we're bound to push buttons or have buttons pushed as we post away.
I think perhaps that's what happened in a couple of threads. I realized as I read a couple of posts that my buttons were being pushed. My response was to NOT post or participate in those conversations (Avery's strategy, also). But we're all different and I'm proud of the folks who can challenge us with varying degrees of diplomacy and directness :wink: . ( I am still learning to find my voice out here in the non-Internet world!)
Portia, let yourself off the hook. If it was you Avery was referring to, or it wasn't, your guilt and self-recrimination has kicked into overdrive!! Simply take this feeling as a sign reread your posts to see if ya think ya need to tone it down. If you think you wrote what you meant and how you meant it, honest not hurtful, let it fly!
[Just as an aside on Portia's post on another thread, what may have happened is when a participant asks for advice and says thanks that was helpful and repeats the question, it can cause people to think they haven't been heard or they were ignored. I don't think the poster realized this could seem like a dismissal and was called on it. Feeling ignored and not heard is going to create some static on this specific board, imho.]
I agree with Avery's concerns and desire to keep a safe atmosphere. I also agree with the others who have posted above that honesty is an important ingredient also, as long as we all can deliver honesty in a helpful and not destructive manner. (And not to "get" someone in the name of honesty--N-alert!!, not you Portia). Urging and encouraging people to take responsibility for their emotional decisions and choices is very ticklish and yet a big part of what goes on here. We're all bound to mess the message up a bit because it can be hard to accept no matter where we hear it.
So thanks Avery, Portia, CC, Discounted Girl and so many others for airing this out. Don't touch that button! :wink: S.
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Ack, that was me, Seeker.
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Dear Portia,
I thought about you all day. Yes I did. Yesterday after this thread was started I thought immediately you were the one being referred to. I started to re read what you posted to the lady who's lost her friend. As I was reading I thought: 1- I like Portia, she reminds me of Rosencrantz...you see I have always appreciated her input on this board, and so I thought GREAT..a Rosencrantz like person..PORTIA. 2- again while reading I thought..there's been a rebirth here..Portia has found her voice since december, how nice for her.3- the forthrightness with the undertone of anger and frustration..I can understand that, been there myself and am there at various times..I could relate. 4- Portia has understood, i thought to myself, like I did, that Narcissism was perhaps the missing link in all the thinking she's been doing perhaps for years, like me..I could relate to that too. 5- Portia's ability to perceive things, her intellect is refreshing, I could feel by re-reading your posts that you're really participating in something here and in your life, she's enthusiastic i thought, about everything she's learning at home and here and all the sharing. 6- I thought, she probably has the same fears I had about posting, because i've always been opinionated, weed-wacker like with my tongue if provoked.. a little ahead of myself sometimes and half-way expecting to have my bubble burst at any given moment...that's what the child of an N feels like. Brought up to have zero voice, walking on eggshells, doubting myself, sharing nervously..wanting to be loved without trying to appear sucky. Then I began hurting for you Portia, because I know in my heart, having been where you are, how fragile my core is compared to the rugged exterior that's been fighting the onslaught of criticism for years.
I'm sorry you had to go through this..again, I definitely think the post was referring to you. I only wish it had been clearer thereby healthier, because after all we are communicating in a healthy environment.
I love your posts, don't be afraid to be honest. If someone thought you were too harsh, why not say so..the world won't come to an end or slip off its axis because of a few ruffled feathers..it's ok to make mistakes..it's ok to say one was hurt..it's ok to have the bells and whistles go off when something makes us uncomfortable..why not just bring it to the group and appropriately state that something bothers us..we can discuss it, resolve it, agree to disagree..put it on the shelf and return to it later. What's the panick? It IS safe here! It's a terrific environment.
Basically Portia, i'm sorry you had a horrible day..on top of everything else you have to deal with..I did think about you all day and I do want to say that you are very important to me and to this board.
It's not a terrible thing to get mad or upset..Avery, and don't feel bad either. I'm not saying get angry with a smile..that's the old way.
Let's get up and start again, let us continue to edify one another..not by being mushy but by acknowledging that we are not perfect, will never be perfect.
My thoughts only, hoping to diffuse whilst acknowledging that i've never been comfortable with family fights...too many of them in memory I guess.
blessings to all,
Nic :(
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Portia -- do not fret my dear. I don't see where you could be an evil force looming amongst us. :evil: Heck, I always scan the posts to see what you say first -- you are a hoot and I love your style. Avery, come on, step up here, tell her it ain't so. You said "There is an individual, who I will not name at this point." Well, Portia has point-counter-pointed herself into a tizzy, set the girl at ease. Cyber life is obviously important to us for a variety of reasons. But, after interacting with virtual people since 1997, I have learned to realize that things are not always as they seem. Members of this forum are highly intelligent with amazing abilities, clever and savvy beyond the norm -- but, alas, most of us are pretty damaged, and anything is possible. I could be your next door neighbor or a defensive tackle for the Panthers or I could be the G U E S T !!! 8) I could be six of you posting different points of view. So Portia, please don't fret so -- what does it matter? I have stayed up late tonight, with Superbowl fever, and I am turning in now. It's about 8 am on your side of the pond, so you will be up soon. I hope I see another post from you tomorrow telling us you feel better. :D
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I just want to say that in my opinion the first two posts on this topic were drawing attention to something important. We don't need to talk about individual posters, I would just like to point out that there is a fundamental difference between hard-hitting but constructive feedback, and what comes across as a personal attack.
When someone comes to this board for the first time, you don't know what state of mind they are in;it could be a very fragile one, or maybe they have been looking for help for a long time, and feel that this could be a safe place for them too.
In the future I would have liked to have offered support to others, when and if I felt qualified to do so. I am sorry that I will not be able to reciprocate the support that I have received, because I do not feel comfortable here, and will not be returning.
Anyway, my main purpose in posting this morning was to say a big THANK YOU to the posters here who gave me the information I was asking for, and also took the time to express their concern and support.
THANK YOU again.
Wishing everybody a peaceful future.
Best wishes, Jazz.
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I almost LOL when I saw the lengths that Portia went to take responsiblity for offending anyone. Not laughing at you P, just see myself in you a hundred fold with the over-defensiveness, fear of being rejected, and obvious pain of being accused of something that you really didn't intent - it is SOOOOO characteric of us as a child of an N to feel like this! Questioning ourselves, second guessing, feeling hurt when we have not been heard correctly, or that our VOICE was inappropriate!!! This is the story of my life!
This has been a most interesting thread. Since the first post by Avery I keep going back, rereading and rereading recent posts. in a futile attempt to find the culprit. I must be naive, but I STILL don't see a direct personal attack implicated in any of the posts. I'm going to go ahead and directly address what I think is the elephant in the room, or the emperor with no clothes!
I find the departure of Jazz particularly revealing, and that this may be one of the people that felt directly attacked or she would not be leaving us. Some of our posts to her were direct, and we could see things she was having trouble acknowledging because of our own past experiences and our progress of healing. She may be an example of someone who is is so much pain that facing the truth is difficult and perceived as personal criticism rather than constructive truths. Additionally, being relatively new she did not know us well enough to feel that all of our responses were given with love and understanding, regardless of the way our semantics played out. I think we can all learn something from her brief stay here amongst us.
As victims of N's or significant childhood toxins we are prone to strong defense mechanisms for survival. These are only learned about and changed when we are ready to receive the truth. And in the healing process, indeed - sometimes we think we are ready, begin to explore it, but the fear and pain become too much and we revert.
I identify with Jazz's decision. It was YEARS before I was able to admit that maybe I was responsible for the poor choices I was making in life - and that I may have even displayed N-traits that affected my relationships. In counseling before my acknowledgment of the truth, I came mainly for comfort, pity and understanding. A voice needing to be heard. I was unable yet to identify my own dysfunctions.
Something that used to happen to me quite frequently during a counseling session - I would be getting very near a crucial realization or trying to finish a story or though about something in the past and then suddenly my mind would blank - I would completely lose track of my thoughts and could not get it back. A subconscious defense mechanism... "don't go there, its too painful to admit". My therapist at the time would use the analogy that my brain was like a CD player on shuffle; it was time to work on another area when that happened because I wasn't ready to deal with whatever that was. And, it took a different therapist with a totally different approach to lead me to the place I needed to get to - at my own pace.
My guess is too, from my own experience - that if Jazz reads my post here today she will feel defensive and irritated that I am saying all these things- maybe even come back to deny. Because that's how I would feel when someone would do it to me. We shouldn't worry about her, she doesn't feel safe here, and that's okay - the right person, book, experience or therapist will come along at the point in her life when she is ready.
If that's what it is, and I am really going out on a limb here by stating all this, but... [Jazz] no one is here to judge. In fact, we are all exactly where we are supposed to be at a given moment. Your long-time male friend is someone who fullfilled needs on some level for you for a long time. You will do the best you can at the moment with whatever outcome is eminent. Someday, you may find that your relationship with him is indicative of something much bigger. Things are not always what they seem. In the meantime, we wish you the best in your searching for self and happiness - we would be arrogant to assume that this can only be found here. As Seeker so wisely indicated, we all have different styles of giving and receiving communication and I'm sure you will find a place that is more comfortable for you.
I may be entirely wrong about who this involved - but even if I am, I think that Jazz's stuff was pertinent to what's going on here! And Avery, you are very empathetic to begin this thread. Empathy is shown in many different ways - and I think one way is to display it "do as I say, not as I've done" (these are the more direct posters) and another is to be "I'm so sorry, please tell/cry some more and I understand because I've felt that too". I believe BOTH are effective, and I would even go as far as to say - BOTH are necessary.
Hope I haven't put words or thoughts into anyone's mouth today, but this thread has me jumping. Seeing you all here and being so concerned too, makes me feel that we all really care about each other and want to keep any evil from lurking :wink:
P.S. Avery has yet to speak up about who this thread was intended. It probably doesn't matter at this point, I can understand the hesitation to name names. I really appreciate that he (she?) has started this chain of events. As someone else put it, it has caused us to all look at each other and ourselves. But even if it was Portia, you can see by the flood of support for you P that it is only one or two people's perspective, and that interpretation is what it's all about. As phoenix and Nic indicated, if you know in your heart that your comments were not maliciously intended, hold your head up high and feel good that your voice was heard!