Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: gratitude28 on June 11, 2006, 11:09:14 PM
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It seems like we have all been dancing around this subject lately... how did our N's get to be that way??? Here are my theories about my mother...
Mom portrays her childhood as tragic, but idyllic. Her father was a diabetic, and, according to her stories, had a strict, bland diet and never touched alcohol. Her mother loved him so deeply she never remarried.
The truth: Froma all other accounts, her father was a nasty drunk who beat her mother and the kids and even let my mother fall out of a moving car. My father has also alluded that her family members have told him this. These are the stories the family tells, but she shrugs them off and goes on as if she never heard them.
I truly believe my mother was sexually abused in some way. The reason I believe this is manyfold. She is crazy about sex... she sees it in everything and everyone and is repulsed by it. Once, I found pictures from when she and my father were first married and he had taken a picture of her topless, asleep. I laughed that I had found it and showed her. SHe had an absolute fit and started crying. I don't think there's anything sick about a young husband liking his wife's boobs. I also found out that she may have "swung" for a while when she and my dad were married... or at least that she wanted to. I have a realtive (brother of an aunt by marriage) who molested people when they were under his care as a doctor. SHE DEFENDED HIM. HSe said my aunt should have still supported him even though he did that. That is nuts... and something a person who had been abused would feel. Not long ago, she got a massage and the therapist told her that she had the feeling that my mother had been abused. My motehr had a fit and ranted about it afterwards and called the therapist crazy. I think a normal person would have just said, OK... not going to that weird one again... All in all, when it comes to sex, she gets so violently upset that something is off.
At any rate, more than just to brign all this out into the open... many of you have so astutely pointed out on this site that our parents (and perhaps SOs... sorry not my field so much) hate us for what they hate in themselves. SO when my mother is constantly assuming I am some sort of sex fiend (now that I am older, wish I could be sometimes :lol:), she is really seeing herself. When she idolizes my fatehr and sees him as the authoritarian, she is seeing her idea of her father. SHe adores my sister, who resembles her, because she can see the girl she wished she had been in her (I resemble my father... so lost that contest long ago...).
Still, even knowing these things, it hurts. We lost a person who should have been central in our lives. Not only is the person realized to be lacking in whatever emotions we assigned him/her, but he/she is now dissected by us until any semblance of what we knew to be our reality is broken.
On the bright side, we aren't crazy! :wink: :P
Much love all. Look forward to hearing your theories.
Beth
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SHE DEFENDED HIM. HSe said my aunt should have still supported him even though he did that. That is nuts... and something a person who had been abused would feel.
I don't understand. Wouldn't someone who has been abused want the abuser to be punished? Or is it that they are so used to protecting their secret and therefore their own abuser that protecting the abuser is the only avenue they can understand?
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Hi Beth,
I think it's impossible to know everything that goes into the making of another person--especially one's parent, whom one can never see objectively. For my own part, I've come to the conclusion that since I can't really understand, I can't really judge. I can only try to undo the damage in my own life, and see to it that I don't pass along any of the hurt.
Of course, everybody's journey is different. I'm very interested in knowing why it's so important to you to construct a theory of how your mother "got that way." How do you think it will help you?
Best,
daylily
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Adrift, I know that when I was in college, I was what I would call 'date raped.' (Now, I would never be such a wimp as to let someone take advantage of me in that way. I'd crush his nads!!!) At any rate, I know that for a long time afterwards, I wanted him to be attracted to me... to validate (I think) that he really did want me and it wasn't all about getting laid. (Sorry for all this crude language). At any rate, I think it's the same with my mother. She feels, "You should defend your family No Matter What." Would you stand up for someone NO MATTER WHAT? What if you found out that your brother was molesting babies? Or that he liked to strangle prostitutes? I just don't think I could defend that. I really think only someone who is trying to justify something would. Does that make any sense?????
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hmmm... interesting thought daylily.
Yes, I do just want to change the way I am and how I react (or at least I am forcing myslef to believe that). I think at first when I found out about this I wanted to believe (badly) that it wasn't true. Maybe I still do.
I also think that it just feels like the puzzle pieces are falling into place in a way. See, I blamed myself for being so many different things for so long and now I see why.
Oops, I think I am getting away from the subject. I think I need to understand WHY because I can't bear the thought that she didn't (and really mostly doesn't) like or love me or my children. She makes so many comments towards me about my sexuality, how I look, whether people are attracted to me, etc. But I realize now that was HER view, not anyone else's. Also, she doesn't do this to my sister. I guess I just want to know WHY am I the one she doesn't like?????? God, don't I sound whny? I'm sorry. That hurt to write.
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Beth,
Same here. A cousin outed my mother's family secret, that her father (a preacher) had abused his daughters, most of all my aunt, the middle child (she slept on a cot on a landing). My mother was very put out when she realized my cousin had told me about it, and my mother said to me, "He only tried it with me once, and I said stop it. Stop it or I'll tell Mother." Then, my mother went on to spin the story that she had "saved" her siblings from his molestation by telling her mother. Yet, my cousin says her mother (the middle daughter) had been depressed her entire life, even in a hospital, and was molested for years.
To this day I don't know whether my mother was abused or succeeded in warning him off. But she is N, and she is very weird about sexuality. She does not intentionally lie, so I just don't know. I hope she is able to tell the truth, because it's horrible to think of what may have happened. Still, this was the atmosphere she grew up in, whether she was directly molested herself or not. I am sure it wrecked her psyche, because she did love her father, who apparently wept and prayed and carried on because he felt guilty.
Tragic, horrible story. Yet although my mother seldom speaks of her parents, when she does, she's deeply respectful of their memory.
So that's what I think made her N.
Hops
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Hi tears,
You are right in a way. For me, this knowledge is somewhat new... I only found out about all this a few months ago.
Hmm... so does a person just get to the point of saying, "Oh well... whatever," and that solves it?
I think my main goal is to be able to function with my parents without assuming the guilt and embarrassment I always have around them and being able to truly see myself as separate from them. I also want to be able to calmly tell my mother when she is being mean to me. I ahev never been good at that. I just ignore it and get hurt.
So, what are our goals here???????? Awesome question teartracks. Also, I think somepeople, like maybe portia, have assimilated and moved on and are good examples to us. I also think that you can't do this until you understand the situation. So I don't feel bad for putting out what I need to resolve unless others feel it is not helping them or in some way detrimental to our goals.
Beth
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Hi TT,
I can tell you that my mom no longer hooks me. She said something incorrect about me in front of my D and my D started defending me and I just felt completely calm, and explained to my D that these remarks don't affect me any more. And I realize they don't.
I love my mother, and I have forgiven her, and I still have plenty of work to do on my self. I don't blame her any more for anything, and I feel compassion for her. I understand that she did the best she knew how to do. Then again, she was not violent, and I did not suffer the horrible abuse that many people here have. Just the deeply confusing messages and sort of twisted thinking. That...she couldn't help either. She built her way of surviving, just as I have.
Anyway, I think in a way that's "moving on." To not be fighting her N-ness any more, and to be at peace about her.
TT, how about starting a thread for times of stength and peace, when the pain/upset is stilled? Would sharing those moments be helpful to you?
Hops
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gratitude, you answered your own question, so I wanted to post your own answer in order for you to be able to see it:
You asked this: Also, she doesn't do this to my sister. I guess I just want to know WHY am I the one she doesn't like??????
but earlier in your post, you gave the answer to it:
SHe adores my sister, who resembles her, because she can see the girl she wished she had been in her (I resemble my father... so lost that contest long ago...).
I wasnt' sure if you realized you have an answered rather than an unanswered question in this.
~RM
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I guess I just want to know WHY am I the one she doesn't like?????? God, don't I sound whny? I'm sorry. That hurt to write.
You aren't whiny, and I totally understand the need to know why. I've been searching the WHY for years now, and learning about events in my parent's lives has helped me to a degree. Are you sure it's that she doesn't like you or is it that she is jealous of you? Perhaps she doesn't have the ability to love more than one person at a time and if your mother is an N, and your sister is like her, then your mom is loving herself through loving your sister. Kinda like loving yourself in the mirror.
Adrift
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Hops.... you said
I can tell you that my mom no longer hooks me.
How did you get to the place where you were no longer hooked. Was it finding out the whys, researching N's, or something else. I'd like to be unhooked, but sometimes her current actions still trigger me.
Beth - my mothers father was very distant, gruff, and cold, even with his grandchildren. And my mother has issues with sexuality that seems to be the same as what you and Hops were describing. It seems their childhoods may have been alike in alot of ways. You said your mother loves your sister but couldn't love you. Do you really think she loves her? Maybe she's using her? I can't think of anyone that my mother truly loves, I see no evidence that she even loves my dad, but plenty that she uses him.
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Hi MS,
I don't think feeling "unhooked" about my Mom was an achievement on my part, as much as a result of time and exposure. I've been living with her and caring for her for 8 years. For most of that time, it was a battle. She charged me rent (while I'm fetching trays and trimming her toenails) and made clear she felt entitled to my care since that's "just what daughters do", and meanwhile dangled our home in front of my nose...kept mentioning how I'd have to "buy out my brother's half" in order to stay. After several years of this, my resentment grew (my brother just visits once or twice a year, but he's the Pope). Eventually, I told her it wasn't fair (urged her to leave me just the empty building, and him all the contents to auction--it's not 50/50, but it's fair)...and she finally decided she agreed with me. Another moment was that a while ago I blew my stack when she once again "punished" me by manipulating him (got him to leap in the car on his way to "the rescue" when the real issue was that she didn't want me to go out, and I took care of her, made sure she was safe, and went out anyway). He was an abusive bully to me throughout my childhood, and she never protected me. So.....when I blew up, I let her have it. Told her I was his victim, and how dare she (top of my lungs) call him in like the cavalry after all I'd been doing, blah, blah. Then I told her it no longer mattered to me about the house, it was all a mistake, and if she didn't turn him around right now, I was leaving. I had never raged at her like that before, and it stopped her. She turned him around, and they both backed off.
Ever since, she's been more appreciative and cooperative. She doesn't fight me any more, and she expresses appreciation. And we are peaceful in the house. I actually feel more love for her, and she is kinder to me. There is a part of her that does love me--as much as she is able to-- and in that, I'm lucky. I know it's been mostly twisted, but as she comes down to the wire (she's 95), I see her being sort of becoming emotionally simpler. Less manipulative, and I do see some genuine concern for my wellbeing. I don't think I would ever have believed that was real, though, unless I'd been living with her for so long now that the subtle changes are detectable. (She's done things recently like say, thank you for being so patient about repeating things because of my hearing, you've never made me feel badly about that. Thank you for taking such good care of me. Thank you for this, and that...) I always tell her you're welcome, and now I can mean it. Resentment's gone.
She's in the grace period of her life, now, so I'm committed to dealing with her with as much grace as I can summon. That one blowup was terrible (guilt) but cleansing, and it released a lifetime's hurt and anger. So...I don't feel angry any more. She may have been the dominant N for all my life, but now she's a frail old woman. Her dependency has made her gentler.
Along with all that...for my own sake, I've forgiven her what she couldn't help. I believe an N's manipulations are as instinctive as breathing. And maybe now that she knows she found my limit, she won't test it again. (My daughter still gets very indignant about the way my mother is, and it causes her turmoil. I just commiserate, but I don't join her in it.)
In the last year and a half my mother's had a cancerous breast removed and had bowel surgery, after which she had to be in a nursing home for almost a month of arduous PT. Her endurance and life force are amazing. I have to admire that side of her.
(And if I forgot to, she'd remind me of her latest compliments!)
Hops
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Hops,
The way things have evolved with your mother--it's almost the un-making of an N. I know she is still N. But that she was able to mellow at all and you were able to forgive. Very beautiful.
Probably it is your openness and also your determination that makes it possible. Not all daughters do what you have done for her. She may never realize just how fortunate she is. But she seems to have gained some appreciation for you.
This was nice to read.
Pennyplant
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Hops,
You are a way better person than me. There's no way I'd be there taking care of her. I resented everything I did for my mother in her last days--well, almost everything. There were a few times I had some compassion for her, but not many. It was a relief when she died. I didn't really care about my dad either, although his disappointment in me has taken root and grown like a cancer. I had to be so damn tough growing up that I learned to not feel and to build walls and to hate. Oh the hatred I had for my mother. Then on other posts on this forum you'll read me say how I can kind of forgiver her now. It's funny how my feelings toward them vascillate. I don't hate her now that I understand her and her life better.
Hops, I"m glad for you that you've been able to come full circle, or almost a full circle, with your mom. You're all the better for it. :)
Adrift
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ok, I guess my post wasn't worth commenting on. HELLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO AM I EVEN HERE TODAY???? I ALREADY SAID SHE ANSWERED HER OWN QUESTION...did anyone SEE that or am I fantasizing one or the other of her sentences?
~RM
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Hey Really,
Take a deeeeeeeeeep breath....c'mon........breaaaaaaathee.
You're doing your excellent imitation of a pit bull again... :?
I know, it's habitual and probably you have had very good reasons to pick up that pattern, eh?
Give it time when you don't feel understood...just hang on, wait a little, see if things calm.
Okay?
I think you might not help yourself when you "go capital"...
Is that anything like "going postal"? :)
(BTW, I thought your post about Beth's question & answer seemed very helpful. But remember, we never know if people are online or not, busy or distracted, etc. I'm sure she will respond to you when she can.)
Meanwhile, ready to hear more about you, anytime.
Hops
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Hi Hops.....
I don't think feeling "unhooked" about my Mom was an achievement on my part, as much as a result of time and exposure.
Let me get this right, you've lived with her and cared for her for 8 years, most of which has been a battle, she's dangled the house in front of your nose, had you pay rent, and to get her to stop you had to rage at her, all this on top of abuse as a child, and now she's calmed and you've forgiven her... and you don't think that's an achievement????
I do, and I don't think many people could do what you've done. Your mother is very very lucky to have you for a daughter.
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Are you okay RM?
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Am I OKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK? well, how would you feel if you told your situation and story and were told "it's time to GET OVER IT" every time you ventured to do what everyone else was already? Or is this list only tolerant of people whose PARENTS or BOYFRIENDS/GIRLFRIENDS were or are N's? Please, I will stick to posting my story to my own threads and not responding with examples from it, as I've said in other posts, but I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW EVEN FROM THE SUPERVISOR OF THIS LIST, why every time I try to do what all of YOU do, am I judged as WRONG?!
~ReallyME
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I wouldn't feel so good RM. I think you've stated before that you've put Jodi in the past, and maybe what others are trying to point out to you is that it doesn't seem that way when you post about her. Are you still hurting?
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(((((Really)))))
It's not fair.
It's a tone thing, and it's not intentional, I am sure.
You're just as welcome to speak about any N in your life as anybody else.
Forums are funny things, and sometimes people get irritated and vent. Just human, just like you.
That might be a challenge for everyone...to feel our buttons get pushed and detach more, not react so much.
Honestly, I would've had my feelings hurt too, had I been hushed. (Or thought I was being hushed.)
Know what? I'm not worrying about you, Really, because I know you'll roll with it and keep on communicating. I admire that impulse in you...because I think you want connection enough to forgive things that go awry.
I was so very impressed with your softened tone on the board when you came back after your recent retreat, you know? It was just remarkable, and I could feel how hard you'd worked to do that.
It might be that some folks just forgot your changes, and were reacting out of memories of your earlier posts, or earlier impressions of you.
Forgive, okay? Sometimes people just do stuff. Mistakes too.
Hugs,
Hops
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I am hearing you, hops. I will consider what you've said.
~RM
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Hi all (and Laura in particular),
I am on at a different hour than all of you as I live in Japan. We overlap a bit, but it gets pretty quiet online at the end of my workday. I did appreciate your comment and just read it two minutes ago. I am also wondering if you are OK??? I agree that you had been sounding so much more peaceful lately.
Thank you everyone for all the great comments and stories. I have been thinking since yesterday, why do I bring up these subjects and feel the need to hash them over? I think I am purging myself of them. I don't plan to go over them endlessly, but I do need to see that my feelings were valid and that I now need to decide where to go from here.
Hops, I also almost like my mother, especially sometimes. I read somewhere that more than anything, NPD is frustrating b/c the N is so unpredictable. My mother can be very kind and sweet. It's just hard for me to take now when I know the next words out might be something horrible. She has actually been a kinder person since she started on ADs, too. I think I have dwelt on the BAD here, because I am trying to accept for myself that I am not/was not a bad person. For years I just felt ugly inside, but now I am seeing that the person I perceived I was is not real. That is my mother's projection on to me, which I assumed.
As I've said, this summer I am going to visit. It will be interesting to see how things go fueled with all this knowledge and with all the great advice I've been given. In the past, when she did something mean, I shut her out and ignored her, which often turned to rage. Now I'm going to try to be an adult and tell her calmly if she hurts me and why. Maybe we can make some progress that way.
Love, Beth
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Also, Laura, you are right, I did answer my own question on "WHY?" I think my question, after mulling it over, should be "HOW?" How can a mother do that to her child?????????
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gratitude, yes HOW can they...although I think some of us, in studying NPD and the origin of it, are aware of how they can...no conscience, no empathy...that will do it.
~Laura
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Reallyme, I haven't meant to overlook anyone's contributions and haven't been here long enough to know y'all but I do understand where you're coming from. There's another forum (totally different subject matter) that I've been on for a long time and I"m well known there---one of the top posters---and when several of my posts don't get responded to I start feeling ignored and unwanted. Then I begin to think that maybe what I posted was considered stupid or of no importance and I can really let it get under my skin. I know I've very sensitive to rejection so that may be why I always assume the worst when my posts are overlooked but I'm not saying that's how/why you feel the way you do.
I think everyone on here makes lots of valid points and I'm learning so much. Thanks guys!!!
Adrift
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No, Adrift...I'm not just "perceiving" that I'm ignored at times here. There have been at least 2 instances when I've even STARTED a thread and my comments were totally glided over, while someone else changed the topic. It happens quite a bit and not just to me on this board. I think it comes from people having been raised by N's who did that and do that to them.
~Laura
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HI ALL I know some of the reasons darn good reasons ,they went thu bad stuff.But so did I
the difference is I humbly say I am not mean,cruel,physically abusive,manipulative etc. So what makes them be like that and me not be bitter and cruel.Well I have let myself feel the pain of the bad experiences and released them .They sadly can not.From what
I see they feel very little or shallow level its so sad so pitiful.All I know Is if you can get in touch with painful experiences really feel them you can get unstuck.BY GUM I am feeling I know I have made mistakes .I admit them and try to make them right.
not sticky.Feel the pain, process it ,release it, get beyond it and you become your real self which is what GOD wanted
compassion love always the love This moon feels so much love for each of us.Day by day I will try to be strong.And be grateful just to feel love or sometimes hurt ,I will grow to be strong for those I love who need me I will try my best every day.Because having love in your heart is a gift from God. LOVE IS GOD
Love and Light
MoonLight
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I really think there is a time in most lives when some basic choice is made. I remember making the choice myself and it was at a young age - grade school. I was teased and tormented a lot, because I looked different [very Celtic coloring, curly hair] and acted different [books, good grades, quietish] in a neighborhood where the 'accepted' look was far from mine and caring about school marked you for life.
I remember thinking to myself how much it hurt me to be treated as I was treated.
I remember thinking to myself that I would never want to cause that kind of pain to anyone else on such shallow pretexts - although I didn't use 'shallow pretexts' at age 6; it was more like 'about things like this that don't really matter as much as what kind of person you are'.
I remember deciding that I just wouldn't.
I also remember, unfortunately, all the subsequent teasing and tormenting, the using and the abusing, the exploitation and entrapment and other good things down the ensuing years, the things that finally instilled in me enough rage and bitterness and sense of futility and waste, that I did begin, in fact, to strike back.
It took a LOOOOONG time, though, for that to happen. And I'm never proud of it when it does.
I'm trying to learn to strike a balance now. To confront without fear, and to accept that sometimes that is going to be futile. That sometimes I'm going to be wrong in my decision to confront, that it may be driven by my own personal tastes more than by the real merits of the situation.
So much to learn...
But I do believe, in every life, on some level, if we are ever aware, that choice confronts us and must be made.
I wonder what I would be like, what my life would have been like, if I had chosen the other way.
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(((Storm))))
...And bookish little girl stayed true to herself and continued to learn and eventually became a Phd chemist. But she never forgot how much the abuse hurt. In determination to find the answers, she also read and studied about the dynamics of abuse. And as she learned she made sure she didn't keep it to herself, she educated others... like us... that she would never see or meet... on topics like Karpman and Triangulation, so they could begin to understand and heal too. I'm grateful you are part of this board.
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:oops: :oops: Oh my goodness. :oops: :oops:
(((mountainspring)))
you've brought me to tears... I feel as though someone had pronounced a heartfelt benediction over my entire life.
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Hi Stormy ... I wanted to let you know you're appreciated. :D
Teartracks... Thank you. :oops: Walking the path is easier here, isn't it.
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Stormchild Are the dynamics the same with a physically abused child and one that was sexually molested or is the principle
the same ? I do hope you have time to answer or if anyone knows. I do know I was physically abused but and did not do this to my children is there research on this?Thank you
moon
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I would consider emotional and physical abuse to have effects that are more similar to each other than to sexual abuse, but that's an oversimplification because sexual abuse almost never happens without emotional abuse, and often it includes physical abuse too, and physical abuse always includes emotional abuse, and emotional abuse may include a physical element.
The pleasure and resulting guilt that can be part of sexual molestation are a real complicating factor, moon. I marvel that anyone who is molested to any degree makes it into adulthood...
That whistleblowing link I put up comes from a sexual abuse survivor page... I wasn't looking for information on sexual abuse when I found it, I was doing a search to see if anyone had recognized the connection between abusive behavior at work and in families.
Here's the link I found to start with
http://incestabuse.about.com/cs/safetyplans1/a/Whistleblower.htm
Here's a site for survivors of childhood sexual abuse
http://www.aquietshame.com/
and another site with more links http://incestabuse.about.com/od/incestrecovery/
emotional abuse: http://www.thisisawar.com/AbuseEmotional.htm
and http://www.suite101.com/links.cfm/9128
domestic violence: http://www.uppitywomen.net/dmv2.html
and http://www.ericas-designs.com/rapehelp/dvhelp.html
and http://www.nyu.edu/cvr
and http://www.familyrefugecenter.com/leaving.html
I think the Net is saving lives and minds...
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Stormchild , It has taken me a long time to be free of the belt in my fathers hand .I am thank ful I was not molested.But
I would have to say all the methods of abuse are just as hard as another .The important thing I believe thanks to my mom (not an N )and my
hubby we did stop the cycle.Also I was so afraid ,shy and timid .I remember as a child after an "event" getting whipped my twin and I said as early as 8 or 9
we will never treat our children like this and I did not.Something I just never or could have thought of after it was done to me.
Also I thank you for the links , the emotional damage of my dads rage was hard.I am grateful for this website.I feel
without it I would not have had the courage to break free.He called left messages and for the first time in my life I have
ignored him,I have said no , stop,this is my life.Gods blessings to you. Its a good thing to feel brave Stormy.
I darn well like my self for it.
Love Moon
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tracks,
dunno if this will help any because it's about me instead of someone else, but I only know my own inner workings for sure - and they're enough like everyone else's, in some important ways, that they might shed some light on some issues.
I used to have fulminating hissy fits - and I mean every word of that, there were lava craters left behind and some are still glowing - when I didn't get acknowledged here right away, especially when I posted about something that was hurting me terribly at the time. There's evidence aplenty right here on this board, a year ago. I left it here to remind myself what I'm capable of...
It stopped when I stopped needing acknowledgement in this place right away.
That stopped when I figured out why it was happening and what I could do about it that was constructive.
In my case, I joined the board at a time when we had many posters whose behavior on the board was suggestive of Borderline PD and that connection was not generally recognized. Some were clearly suffering terribly. Some were pretty obviously here more for attention than for genuine healing. There were repeating patterns: on thursday or friday one of these posters would announce that they were going to spend the weekend harming themselves and the entire board would immediately jump to attention with reassurance, support, validation, etc. that went on round the clock throughout the weekend - so that the BPD wasn't left to fend for themselves and find something constructive to do... [an unkind interpretation, but after three or four repetitions of the cycle, one that seemed to have some truth in it.]
Things just went round and round - in typical borderline fashion: threaten self-harm, get attention; threaten self-harm, get attention; but nothing ever improved for the self-harm threatener, it was clear from their responses that they weren't actually taking in what was being offered in the way of alternate responses and things to try. Eventually, after several cycles, people here stopped playing. They tired, and withdrew.
Meanwhile, though, people who were in honest pain and expressing it candidly, people who really needed the good things that were being lavished elsewhere in abundance, were twisting slowly, slowly in the wind.
I wasn't the only person to experience this, I just reacted much more phosphorescently to it.
Now. This wasn't just about me, and it wasn't just me. It just was. It was a combination of people meaning well and wanting to help others, who felt more comfortable dealing with one certain type of expressed pain, and reasonably enough believed the threats of self-harm the first half dozen times the game was played.
So they invested most of their time and energy in that, and didn't recognize right away that they were pouring attention into situations where it just vanished without a trace, zero net gain for the recipient, major net loss for the giver.
My timing was bad and I had insight but no patience. When I realized that I could use my insight to develop patience, but that I needed to find another place to do that, things started to work.
I joined discussion groups on more emotionally neutral, less 'invested' subjects - scientific areas I have a 'hobby interest' in, literature discussion groups - under other names - replied slowly at first - and waited patiently until someone took up or built on one of my posts. Eventually I reached the point where I could share something I thought was significant, on these non-emotionally charged subjects, detach from it, and simply be glad if someone else found value in it. If they reacted positively to me and especially if they responded in a way that allowed a conversation to develop, this was gravy.
I was learning to 'rein in' my expectations. It was good for me!
Being overlooked here when I was hurting and wanted attention, being negatively responded to when I 'acted out' about it [instead of comforted and supported as the self-harm threateners were at the time] may have been one of the best 'strange gifts' this board ever gave me, because it recreated a painful dynamic from my own childhood in which I was essentially punished by my FOO for being less dysfunctional than others in the family! And as an adult, I had other options. I analyzed the situation and took myself elsewhere to practice doing things differently... something I could never do as a child.
This whole experience taught me how lacking I was in true humility in a very important area of my heart. And that was a lesson I needed very much to learn. Can't say I'm as humble now as I ought to be - far from it - but I can see the 'proud flesh' more easily, I'm much less willing to make excuses for it or defend it, I'm less prone to jump on someone else in the heat of an emotional reaction without stopping to run it through my Karpman Screen first - some oobleck still gets past it, but a lot less does now. And that is all to the good.
One woman's partial journey. Story told for whatever it's worth.
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Stormchild,
I am a choleric temperament, which means I greatly struggle in the humility and patience departments. I am 63% choleric and very little of any other temperament, so when I hear someone whining over a situation excessively, it bugs me, when I see someone doing nothing, it bugs me, and when I see someone who is so happy and peppy that they are acting goofy, after too much of it, it bugs me. I am goal-oriented more than emotion-oriented. Some people might think cholerics act N-like. I don't know, maybe we can fall into that if we're not careful.
I like that you pointed out the things you did in this list, about being "punished for not being as dysfunctional as others in the family." Sometimes, that's how I feel. I'm really not very dysfunctional anymore and have overcome a LOT, but I still learn things by reading what the rest of you post, and that is why I'm still here. We ALL can learn something from others, if we observe long enough, and with a fairly-open mind.
That's how I feel...as far as being ignored on this list, yes it's happened, but honestly, I'm quite over it now.
Laura
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Stormy,
That was dazzlingly lucid.
I admire your mind and your writing so much, and the truths you tell.
Thank you.
Hops
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Geez Louise, Ladies,
Ducked in for a quick read, now you've got me all teared up and just STUNNED by all the wisdom here. Hope you can forgive the excerpts...this whole thread is amazing, but these are the words/lessons that just stuck. One commonality I see: none of you seem to see yourselves or your strength/choices as exceptional--which is nothing if NOT exceptional. Hops and Stormy, the brave and selfless caretaking choices you made (which neither of you describe as 'sacrifices', though most people surely would). Jac and Moon, your lack of bitterness, and openness here, just inspire me. (Think I need to go soak my head just to digest all these blessings!).
Hops
I love my mother, and I have forgiven her, and I still have plenty of work to do on my self. I don't blame her any more for anything, and I feel compassion for her. I understand that she did the best she knew how to do. Then again, she was not violent, and I did not suffer the horrible abuse that many people here have. Just the deeply confusing messages and sort of twisted thinking. That...she couldn't help either. She built her way of surviving, just as I have.
Anyway, I think in a way that's "moving on." To not be fighting her N-ness any more, and to be at peace about her.
Along with all that...for my own sake, I've forgiven her what she couldn't help. I believe an N's manipulations are as instinctive as breathing.
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Moon
Well I have let myself feel the pain of the bad experiences and released them .They sadly can not.From what
I see they feel very little or on a very grade school shallow level its so sad so pitiful.All I know Is if you can get in touch with painful experiences really feel them you can get unstuck.BY GUM I am feeling sooooooooooooooooooo silky soooooooooooooooo
not sticky.Feel the pain, process it ,release it, get beyond it and you become your real self which is what GOD wanted
compassion love always the love This moon feels so much love for each of us.Day by day I will try to be strong.And be grateful just to feel love or sometimes hurt ,I will grow to be strong for those I love who need me I will try my best every day.
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Jac
in order to learn to detach from expectations and the like, we first have to SEARCH for the reasons behin the emotions; BECOME HONEST with ourselves about it; learn WHY we are behaving that way - FEEL those feelings, UNDERSTAND them, and then and only then will we have the power to DETACH.
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Stormy
I really think there is a time in most lives when some basic choice is made. I remember making the choice myself and it was at a young age - grade school. I was teased and tormented a lot, because I looked different [very Celtic coloring, curly hair] and acted different [books, good grades, quietish] in a neighborhood where the 'accepted' look was far from mine and caring about school marked you for life.
I remember thinking to myself how much it hurt me to be treated as I was treated.
I'm trying to learn to strike a balance now. To confront without fear, and to accept that sometimes that is going to be futile. That sometimes I'm going to be wrong in my decision to confront, that it may be driven by my own personal tastes more than by the real merits of the situation.
So much to learn...
But I do believe, in every life, on some level, if we are ever aware, that choice confronts us and must be made.
I wonder what I would be like, what my life would have been like, if I had chosen the other way.
eing overlooked here when I was hurting and wanted attention, being negatively responded to when I 'acted out' about it [instead of comforted and supported as the self-harm threateners were at the time] may have been one of the best 'strange gifts' this board ever gave me, because it recreated a painful dynamic from my own childhood in which I was essentially punished by my FOO for being less dysfunctional than others in the family! And as an adult, I had other options. I analyzed the situation and took myself elsewhere to practice doing things differently... something I could never do as a child.
This whole experience taught me how lacking I was in true humility in a very important area of my heart. And that was a lesson I needed very much to learn. Can't say I'm as humble now as I ought to be - far from it - but I can see the 'proud flesh' more easily, I'm much less willing to make excuses for it or defend it, I'm less prone to jump on someone else in the heat of an emotional reaction without stopping to run it through my Karpman Screen first - some oobleck still gets past it, but a lot less does now. And that is all to the good.
One woman's partial journey. Story told for whatever it's worth.
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imho, what it's worth is beyond price or words. ((((Stormy))))
If all folks could just process and believe the truth of this thread alone the world would probably burst with forgiveness. Here's to it!
:D
LoH
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((((((((everybody))))))))
:oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops:
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Thanks, TT,
But I say you are a far finer figure of a caregiver than I am.
I truly didn't start out with inheritance on my mind one bit. Nowhere near. I nursed my Dad every weekend for six months through his final illness....driving four hours Friday night to get here, staying up with him, catching a nap Sat. then staying up all night again, driving back 4 hours Sunday night and working an insanely stressful job Mon-Friday. While caring for him, I promised him I would take good care of her once he was gone. (I also didn't resent what I did for him--for them both--for a moment.)
But after 8 years of caring for her...I did find I couldn't live with being toyed with about the house. I need a home.
I admire your sacrifices for your mother. I know if I had money I would give her more of it. Meanwhile, all I can give is care...and I do, and I feel all right about inheriting the house. My brother may be miffed, but I think on some gut level he too might recognize it's just.
Thanks for understanding...it's an odd role. I wish we had better solutions for our elders than one exhausted child (most often a daughter) or a warehouse. I know there's senior daycare...but Ma's too snooty to go mingle with "just anyone." Oy.
Hops
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Thank you, TT.
The caregiving sisterhood is usually unnoticed...most of my same-age peers either would never consider living with their elderly mothers, or their mothers are gone, or they are in nursing homes.
I do feel in many ways that my own life is on "Pause" until hers is done.
It's good to be understood! (And I wish things would work out more fairly for you too. I'm sorry. It would be nice if your sisters would voluntarily recognize the justice in offering you a home to keep.)
(((TT)))
Hops