Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: WRITE on June 16, 2006, 02:56:45 PM
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I have thought a lot about love all my life, and have often become a perfectionist in how I chose to demonstrate it and how I judged other people's ability to give it; but I have come to the conclusion that human love is an imperfect thing, and we are all doing our best with what we have.
As some of you know I have been involved with my ex for over 25 years, he has NPD, though his current psychiatrist feels it isn't a useful label for a patient & doesn't use it.
Does he love me?
Yes, I have no doubt, and I know that within his capacity he would do anything to help me.
The big things about being involved with him are he does not change much and he takes an amazing amount of energy out of the relationship. Other people learn about you and respond to you and don't make the same errors over and over if they want to stay in a relationship with you. They give to you, and there's an ebb and flow of reciprocal emotions and actions between you.
He can't do this, and has patterns of relating which have remained the same since he was a teen, so it is too frustrating to have him as a husband and keep going around and around the cycle.
I do hope we will always be good friends though, and where we do love each other it is a precious thing to me and I have forgiven him any hurt he has caused me, as I hope he has forgiven me.
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When we are still hurting and angry it is almost impossible to believe that things are so different than how we wanted them to be, that so much life and energy has been wasted.
It's only later I realised that nothing is really wasted- and I wouldn't have been in a relationship with my ex if I had better boundaries, stronger self-esteem, and the ability to let go.
I also picked up some of his N behaviours ( alongside my own faults like stubborness ) and together we turned our life into a battleground that 20 years' experience later I would not do.
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For people who have been involved with a psycopath, someone who has had no insight or compassion or remorse or integrity, I think you can only turn away from that person, have the least possible to do with them, hopefully within a legal framework.
I think a psycopath definition is someone who respects NO boundaries ( even societal and legal ones ) and therefore cannot love. Psycopath is a word which has fallen from common useage except in horror stories, Antisocial Personality I guess it's called now.
The red flags are different for Antisocial PD and NPD- Ns tend to be successful and more capable in social settings, to know what impresses people, better all-round play-actors. Psycopaths have a long history of violence and criminality, and their initial boasting would make us more uncomfortable. Some people find tough-guy behaviour attractive I suppose, but it is more obviously abusive or potentially abusive.
Saying that- if you're like me and prone to switching off your red flag detector....and feeling sorry for people and listening to hard luck stories....trusting people after they broke your trust....making excuses for them and seeing their viewpoint instead of your own. Well, you get the picture...
I am just venturing tentatively out into the real world again, but I ask a lot of questions and try not to tune out the answers! I want to know how a guy treats the waitress who spills his drink over him, his mother, his cat...what he says if I disagree with him, how he handles being embarrassed, if he calls as often as I do, if he's prepared to make half the effort, does he listen and really hear?
Enough rambling, time to go attack some sugar ants who invaded my kitchen last night. They definitely don't respect my boundaries....
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Are you sleeping OK?
yes, I'm doing pretty good. You?
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Bravo, Moon mom!
Hops
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Well I got that other girl's phone number and called her mom. Also this same girl left phone messages on our phone that were mean.So any way I feel good about stopping this kid.So that was what my energy was spent on last 2 days and my tiny 13 year
old is safe.I picked her up from the mall and she did not have one wet hair on her head. :D
Moon, this is wonderful. Your daughter will always remember what you did for her. Sometimes it is just as simple as someone telling the bully to stop. I'm so glad you called her mother. PP
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good for you Moonlight!
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Write,
My exnh was never mean, angry or bullying. In fact, quite the opposite. He was very afraid of confrontation, spent a lot of time being self-deprecating and was, I believe, a passive-aggressive personality in addition to being n. Where his n behaviors come in, are his compulsive lying (quite often to avoid confrontation or anger), lack of empathy (which really only became apparent when he decided he wanted to end the marriage), inability to be intimate, and addiction to pornography and masturbation. He hid all those behaviors behind a mask of being a really great guy, who is very funny, but always likes to be the center of attention.
Now that we have been apart for nearly 3 years, and I have moved on with my life and happy in a new relationship, he wants to be my friend. He acts like nothing happened between us that was extremely devastating to me at the time, and I should accept him back in my life as more than just the father of our children. The fact that he thinks that I could so easily put all that pain aside and welcome him back in my life with open arms I guess, is testament to his true lack of empathy. He truly doesn't get it.
I have no interest in being his friend or having him in my life as any more than the father of my children. In fact when I do have to be in his presence, I find him extremely annoying and childlike and wonder how I ever put up with it for 22 years and then was so devastated when it ended.
When he suggested last week that maybe he could sit with my b/f and I at our D's graduation (my b/f also had a son in that class) because our son wanted to sit with me and he would be all alone, I was stunned. First of all, our D did not want to see us sitting together--thought that would be very awkward and secondly, it would be just plain weird and uncomfortable. It was bad enough having to deal with the after-ceremony greetings between all the ex's, children, etc. Anyway, I ended up asking our son to sit with him so he wouldn't be alone since gee, I guess the still-married girlfriend wouldn't want to be making that kind of public appearance. :roll:
I guess my point is (if I even have one :?), there are many different personality types among the world of n's. How we choose to deal with them, if we must, is so dependant on those personalities. Also recognizing the games they can play, lies they can tell and manipulation techniques they use, is also key to not being drawn into their web again.
Write, it sounds like you are using some very wise determining factors for moving forward. How someone treats the people who serve them, imo, is so reflective of how they treat their loved ones. Also, certainly, how they are with their children, pets, parents, etc., is also key. There's lots more to it, but that is a very good starting point.
Moon,
Good job with your little D. The mother bear certainly showed up that day.
Brigid
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there are many different personality types among the world of n's. How we choose to deal with them, if we must, is so dependant on those personalities.
absolutely.
And I recognise those childlike qualities too.
My ex is 'a good man but' and the but is too big (! ) and unchanging.
I waited for ages whilst he tried to change but even though he is a little changed it's too slow and I've had to move on.
I guess the still-married girlfriend wouldn't want to be making that kind of public appearance
probably for the best!
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one annoying thing ( funny how I can never think of many yet there are loads really ) just happened again:
he leaves whilst I am on the phone dealing with something else!
It happenes so often it can't be coincidence, but a conversation he can overhear between me and someone else seems to make him feel rejected, years ago it made him angry and he's even pressed the receiver button and cut me off when we were young and he wanted my attention.
He wasn't in a hurry or anything, and it was obvious from what I was saying I wasn't going to be talking long...
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a lot of Ns seem to be 'helping people' but especially doctors- that combination of life-or-death responsibility & G_dlike status plus the need to develop a tough professional veneer seem to cause emotional dissociation.
I had an article about it once, but I can't find it now
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What an amazing thing to read this father's day.
thank you for sharing this, Mooon.
You sound clear, and calm....
hugs,
Hops
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hey moon,
I just realized that you type BP to mean BiPolar. I've used BPD to mean Borderline Personality Disorder (a form of N disturbance, I read somewhere). This is what i think my Mom has - Borderline Personality Disorder. I hope you didn't think I meant bipolar when I typed BPD?
Does anyone have more info on Borderline Personality Disorder and whether it is truly a form of N disturbance or not?
thanks,
penelope
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Hi Penelope,
When I first began to suspect that my ex-husband was something more than just eccentric, I researched mental illness online and thought I'd found the answer in Borderline Personality Disorder. Although I don't recall ever reading that it's a form of "N disturbance", I definitely think it could be called an identity disturbance. The main reason I thought the Borderline disorder fit him was that he seemed to require loads of attention and was capable of pitching a fit when he didn't get it.... very histrionic. It's funny... he and I even discussed the ins and outs of BPD at that time and I remember printing out a load of info on the topic, some of which he perused. He actually seemed to like the idea that this was his "problem" and for a while, his behavior improved. Anyhow, it soon became quite apparent that there was far more to it, not that BPD isn't difficult enough to deal with... since that time I've had several encounters with borderline folks, one of whom remains a friend... whew, lots of rage there. In summary ~ to me, BPD is to a loose cannon as NPD is to an ICBM.
Hope
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a personality disorder is a faulty pattern of behaviour which does not change with time and experience unlike other people's lives where we make mistakes and learn and change. There are several named personality disorders: paranoid, schizoid, schizotypal, histrionic, narcissistic, borderline, avoidant, dependent, obsessive-compulsive and antisocial ( there are probably a couple more )
There is dispute amongst psychiatrists about whether personality disorders respond to treatment, some doctors believe they are not treatable. Others have had various degress of success depending on the severity of the behaviours and the responsiveness of the person.
My father I would say has Borderline, and it is with him I learned that setting boundaries is pointless, he will push and push and sulk and tantrum and you're either the best or the worst to him, never in between. He has 'mellowed' as he got older and less in the arena of competitiveness eg with relationships/ work. I don't have a great deal of contact, though I write letters I find it doesn't take much for him to go back to his old patterns.
He's very frustrating because he can be very charming and pleasant, but he will react like a small child when he doesn't get his own way and in particular when life goes wrong ( unlike my Narcissist ex who is excellent at organising things and dealing with a crisis. Interestingly- I married my husband because he seemed so sensible and grown up and capable, which he is in public! )
That was the worst thing growing up with my father- we had to be the adults because any trauma and he would go on a drinking binge or take to his bed or throw a tantrum, and my early years were marred with having to handle things the adults should have taken care of not a child.
When I had my son he was very angry because I would not leave the newborn baby and go help him with a family crisis. He is very selfish but not malicious more attention-seeking and capricious, will talk in a baby voice or joke or flirt to get his own way.
He was abandonned as a child, by his father's severe alcoholism and disappearance, and his mother's neglect and susequent death. If someone says somethign like, 'I had a bad childhood experience' he cannot listen but immediately goes off about his own, even if it's insensitive.
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hmmm, that's interesting write. I do see the parallels to my mother.
There is dispute amongst psychiatrists about whether personality disorders respond to treatment, some doctors believe they are not treatable.
This is the strange thing I can't figure out about my Mom. She was in therapy (until her therapist retired) for several years, and was starting to uncover lots of stuff from her childhood. The most significant thing she uncovered was that her alcoholic father molested her. But unlike some people, who'd take this information and seek healing, the only way I ever saw my Mom use this information was as an excuse for her inappropriate behavior. When she'd get angry and it was obvious she was acting 'nuts' (throwing things, yelling, being verbally abusive), she'd often break down crying (I called em alligator tears) and say "I'm the reason I am the way I am because my father molested me." I was always confused at this point and upset, as it sounded to me like I should excuse her behavior and maybe even soothe her at this point. That's a lot of responsibility to put on a kid. Later as an adult, it did work eventually - I started soothing her and feeling bad for her (empathizing) when this happened.
Others have had various degress of success depending on the severity of the behaviors and the responsiveness of the person.
I really wish I could talk to my Mom's therapist, to get his take on whether the years - 3? 5? of therapy had any impact, in his opinion.. But of course, this would be unethical. I'd also ask what he thought about my Dad, who told me once "Yeah, your mother and I go in to see Dr. R a couple times a year to ya know, get an adjustment. It's sort of like what you have to do to maintain your car." This blew me away, when I understood the goals of therapy myself. I thought, does he really believe that therapy is about impressing the Therapist, and getting Mom to think he's acting alright? (Dad is NPD, likely).
My father I would say has Borderline, and it is with him I learned that setting boundaries is pointless, he will push and push and sulk and tantrum and you're either the best or the worst to him, never in between. He has 'mellowed' as he got older and less in the arena of competitiveness eg with relationships/ work. I don't have a great deal of contact, though I write letters I find it doesn't take much for him to go back to his old patterns.
I'm sorry write. I know it's difficult. Superficial. And icky.
He's very frustrating because he can be very charming and pleasant, but he will react like a small child when he doesn't get his own way and in particular when life goes wrong ( unlike my Narcissist ex who is excellent at organizing things and dealing with a crisis. Interestingly- I married my husband because he seemed so sensible and grown up and capable, which he is in public!
That is interesting.
When I had my son he was very angry because I would not leave the newborn baby and go help him with a family crisis. He is very selfish but not malicious more attention-seeking and capricious, will talk in a baby voice or joke or flirt to get his own way.
Now this sounds like my mother. Very borderline, I think. If I understand the disorder correctly. They simply don't understand how their request could be considered 1) selfish 2) rude 3) childish or 4) unreasonable. It is pointless arguing with them, they just feel they're entitled. When I was still talking to Mom, I found the easiest thing to do was to just lie to her. I'd tell her things like: oh, my car isn't running right now, so I can't come visit. It was just easier than saying no (actually, I never considered that option, my Mom would never accept it). The strange thing is, I hate lying, but I lied perpetually to my parents since the time I was a teenager. This is why it was so foreign to me when my first recent counselor said: ya know, you can set boundaries with your mom, you don't have to stop talking to her. Then, he met her...and shortly after that I got a new counselor. I'm not sure he realized how difficult she really is, even after she ranted to him about her (6 adult, with families of their own) children, and how they were doing this or that "wrong."
He was abandoned as a child, by his father's severe alcoholism and disappearance, and his mother's neglect and subsequent death. If someone says something like, 'I had a bad childhood experience' he cannot listen but immediately goes off about his own, even if it's insensitive.
This is also where I can see the parallels to my mom and her alcoholic father.
pen
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Hi,
Just found this site today and am feeling very low. I have been aware for some time that my partner is a narcissist and just letting in the information that he is not going to change. I have been reading posts here and they ring extremely loud bells for me.
The lack of empathy is what I find really scary. I know that I will have to end the relationship because he will not......too much supply from me.........but giving up on the relationship, which I know can never be real, is so very painful right now.
Like so many of you I invested so much in this and realise that it was all some sort of "game". I feel terribly abused and used and as time goes on, despite his protestations of love, I realise that I mean nothing other than supply to him. I feel so terribly sad and am wondering where I am going to find the energy and strenght to get out.
axa
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Hi Axa,
I hope you find some of that energy and strength here.
When I was going through the same thing, I joined a weekly women's support group which was tremendously empowering and at the same time did therapy and joined a non-creedal church. I got very busy creating support for myself.
I still had to go through the pain, but not alone. It made all the difference.
Are any of those options for you?
Hopalong
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This is why it was so foreign to me when my first recent counselor said: ya know, you can set boundaries with your mom, you don't have to stop talking to her. Then, he met her...and shortly after that I got a new counselor. I'm not sure he realized how difficult she really is, even after she ranted to him about her (6 adult, with families of their own) children, and how they were doing this or that "wrong."
it's one problem with therapy- so many therapists have not lived the lives we have, everything they know is from text books and lectures...it's so frustrating to be told do A then B then C and that's how it must work.
Plus most stuff on the internet about Personality Disorder is goal-orientated- when the truth is you are going to be in a whirlwind of confusion being pulled in many directions if you are involved with someone with a PD.I believe the most extreme 'psycopathic' people fit a total profile- not that you'll be alive to testify if you nang around & try and fathom them for too long- but for everyone else it's a mostly individual thing, some people will have issues in one area, some people in others.
The one big thing anyone involved in a PD person's life will have in bucketloads- frustration.
Forget your needs, these are people with BIG problems, and no easy solutions ( maybe no solutions at all )
But don't be surprised either if your search for help and healing solutions is just as crazy.
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Write
Amen to your last three sentences above. Reading you I feel less alone and somehow more content with my place amongst my fellow humans. Rolling around in this mess and trying to make some sense of it. best to you (((((Write)))))), P
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WRITE,
I agree with what you said about how some therapists just can't relate to personality disorders. The shocking thing to me, is that I actually know more about such topics than many of the therapists do, at my local mental health center!
When I tried to talk to my daughter's former counselor about NPD and BPD, she just sort of looked at me with a blank stare and said "wow, reallllllllllllllllllllllly? I never heard of that. Can you get me some more information about it?" I was flabbergasted!
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when the truth is you are going to be in a whirlwind of confusion being pulled in many directions if you are involved with someone with a PD
thank you write, it just feels validating that you understand this so well. And..the frustration.
hugs,
pb
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Hi Penelope,
This is one of the best borderline personality disorder sites I've found:
http://www.psycom.net/depression.central.borderline.html
Looking at the the DSM-IV criteria for both BPD and NPD, I think many if not most folks who struggle with BPD would also approach or meet the criteria for NPD. My best guess is my MIL and the spouse of one of my closest friends could both be diagnosed with BPD if they chose treatment, and both of them would also meet the criteria for NPD as a secondary diagnosis.
One incredibly helpful book on BPD = Stop Walking on Eggshells: Coping When Someone you Care About has Borderline Personality Disorder. It's more practical than diagnostic, really explained the 'looping', imho, it's easy to get caught up in around BPD issues. I've read several research studies that suggest it's common for many folks with BPD to experience a lessening of the disorder with age. There are results from at least one major follow-up study at the link above. I haven't seen that with the two people in my life, but I think that may have a lot to do with the fact that neither is being treated and both were older than 30 when I met them.
Best to you, Penelope, and Everyone
LoH
PS (on edit) - Does anyone else experience this? I often feel uneasy after saying almost anything at all about a personality disorder(s). Not quite this harsh, but something on the lines of 'Easy for you to say/What do you know about it?' After this post I picked up my novel again. One character is a psychologist, who immediately said she believed "Every person in therapy has a love disorder." Sounded much kinder than 'personality disorder'. Know I'm word-obsessed, but I think, on an emotional level, I object to that term, like there's some implication that who someone is, their own unique self, is just wrong. Has some echo of absolute judgment to me.
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After this post I picked up my novel again. One character is a psychologist, who immediately said she believed "Every person in therapy has a love disorder." Sounded much kinder than 'personality disorder'. Know I'm word-obsessed, but I think, on an emotional level, I object to that term, like there's some implication that who someone is, their own unique self, is just wrong. Has some echo of absolute judgment to me.
I've read a lot of old newspapers and in the past, a hundred years ago or more, when they reported personal news such as someone going to the insane asylum, sometimes the diagnosis was actually "disappointed in love." In those days, people would be sent to these places and, even if they received not much in the way of "treatment", the condition often resolved itself in about two years. It is thought that the patients gave support to each other with all that they probably had in common, and that this support is what healed the emotional conditions the people had been hospitalized for.
Pennyplant
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LOH,
The most uneasy I have felt talking about Personality Disorders, has been on this very message board. As I've said, I suspect there are a few people who have pd's here, and they get very touchy when it's uncovered.
~RM
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reallyme,
Do you believe I have a personality disorder?
penelope bean
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The most uneasy I have felt talking about Personality Disorders, has been on this very message board. As I've said, I suspect there are a few people who have pd's here, and they get very touchy when it's uncovered.
people get uneasy about lots of things, in lots of situations.
I have only had one foot in the Board since someone's post implied I am not unlike the worst N they had known. Not because I feel I am N or because I am particularly sensitive to what people think.
It's a Bipolar thing: we have tremendous energy and it runs away with us; we have to learn to hold off and say- am I robbing this situation? Am I too much here? Over the years I have learned as a tool for Bipolar- back off, see what is going on, be more sensitive ( because otherwise I might be totally insensitive )
When I first saw your religious postings here Laura, especially the demonology ones I was very uncomfortable and didn't see it as healthy.
Now you've been around a while, I do see a pattern to your posting which leans on the religious when you are upset maybe? Sometimes you post a lot of religious quotes and stuff, I am never quite sure if there's a hidden message.
But mostly you are trying to share a strong Christian religious message, I see that.
Some people might see that as evangelising, and not like it, others will read it as uplifting.
A hindu or Muslim might not respond to it at all.
Is it important to you to give a spiritual message even if you are asking for support and help for yourself?
Posting and Personality Disorder:
I haven't seen any patterns here but I expect the main personality disorders ( borderline and narcissistic ) have common traits in that the person must win an argument, will tantrum and sulk if unanswered, but mostly I would guess- shift ground/ opinions constantly in order to be in the right.
One of the hardest things to live with a PD person is there's no stationary goalpoast: blink and the rules have changed, for no apparent reason. And develop as much sensitivity as you like, it won't matter, you'll miss the barely perceptible inexplicable mood changes anyway.
With a borderline you're the greatest alive or the biggest letdown...with an N you're possibly hesitantly fantastic if it advances the N- position, but with big reservations & mostly you're going to be disappointed if you so much as try to experience ( let alone relive ) a happy moment without the N subsequently bursting your bubble and drawing important matters back to them...
I discussed PD with my psychiatric teacher friend yesterday, and she agreed- NPD is unlikely to make it to the hospital, Borderline is very common there because of suicide attempts and more willingness to 'get help' ( even if it's only on the BPD personality person's terms & not real help )
Psycopath is more likely to be in prison ( beginning with juvenile ) though she says there are a few youngsters who are still attention-seeking, haven't resorted to total destruct. Though they are mega-destructive.
disappointed in love
I guess around the turn of the previous century post-Victorian reformation started to happen in the UK; by 1985 it was a complete reversal of institutions to 'care in the community' in small designated environments supervised by caring wardens with access to doctors and therapy where required.
Nice idea, but a long way short of fulfilling the needs of people who had been institutionalised for years, often for antisocial behaviours, but sometimes just for being demonised by their families: masturbation/ lesbianism and homosexuality/ even unmarried mothers have fallen under this 'protective legislation' over the years.
All over the UK were little stories from doctors and psychiatric nurses about trying to restore to their 'communities' people who had lived their whole lives in institutions. I was always fascinated, but no one seems to want to hear hard-luck stories any more, not unless they are sensationalist or profitable.
Sometimes I wish I'd paid more attention, for there was a whole way of life passing- thankfully.
But I guess it's all history too.
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Write, that is fascinating.
Bravo to you for noticing and caring about those imprisoned people.
thanks for this post.
Hops
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Penelope,
There are certain characteristics that I notice in the people I felt had a personality disorder. As of this time, I have not seen anything problematic being presented by you. I'm not a doctor, so I can't diagnose, but I can give my view of the traits I've seen in people regarding PD.
here is what Borderline is:
Borderline Personality Disorder
What is Borderline Personality Disorder?
Quick Summary:
Borderline personality disorder is characterized by mood instability and poor self-image. People with this disorder are prone to constant mood swings and bouts of anger. Often, they will take their anger out on themselves, causing injury to their own body. Suicidal threats and actions are not uncommon. Borderlines think in very black and white terms and often form intense, conflict-ridden relationships. They are quick to anger when their expectations are not met.
Self-injury or attempted suicide
Strong feelings of anger, anxiety, or depression that last for several hours
Impulsive behavior
Drug or alcohol abuse
Feelings of low self-worth
Unstable relationships with friends, family, and boyfriends/girlfriends
Additional Information:
Borderline personality disorder was so-named because it was originally thought to be at the "borderline" of psychosis. The disorder is relatively common, affecting 2% of adults. Women are much more likely to suffer borderline than men. Nearly 20% of psychiatric hospitalizations are due to borderline. With treatment, patients are often able to see their symptoms improve.
Treatment involves therapy in which the patient learns to talk through his or her feelings rather than unleashing them in destructive and self-defeating ways. Medication may be helpful, and treatment of any alcohol or substance abuse issues is required. Brief hospitalization is sometimes required, especially in cases involving psychotic episodes or suicide threats or attempts.
Books on Borderline Personality Disorder
Get Me Out of Here : My Recovery from Borderline Personality Disorder
"As the 29-year old accountant, wife, and mother of young children would soon discover, it was the diagnosis that finally explained her explosive anger, manipulative behaviors, and self-destructive episodes- including bouts of anorexia, substance abuse, and sexual promiscuity."
Stop Walking on Eggshells; Coping When Someone You Care about Has Borderline Personality Disorder
"A self-help guide that helps the family members and friends of individuals with borderline personality disorder (BPD) understand this self-destructive disorder and learn what they can do to cope with it and take care of themselves."
Borderline Personality Disorder Demystified: An Essential Guide to Understanding and Living With BPD
"Dr. Robert Friedel, a leading expert on the disorder and a pioneer in its treatment, turns his vast personal experience into a useful and supportive guide for everyone living with and seeking to understand this condition."
I Hate You, Don't Leave Me : Understanding the Borderline Personality
"Dr. Jerold J. Kreisman and health writer Hal Straus offer much-needed professional advice, helping victims and their families to understand and cope with this troubling, shockingly widespread affliction."
The Angry Heart: Overcoming Borderline and Addictive Disorders : An Interactive Self-Help Guide
"Self-study is sometimes the best route for the BPD who is serious about getting better."
Sometimes I Act Crazy : Living with Borderline Personality Disorder
"Do you experience frightening, often violent mood swings that make you fear for your sanity? Are you often depressed? Do you engage in self-destructive behaviors such as drug or alcohol abuse, anorexia, compulsive eating, self-cutting, and hair pulling? Do you feel empty inside, or as if you don’t know who you are?"
Girl, Interrupted (DVD)
"Winona Ryder conveys the confusion and chaos that signified Kaysen's life during nearly 18 months of voluntary institutionalization beginning in 1967."
Symptoms of Borderline Personality Disorder and then, Narcissistic Personality Disorder...each person can compare for themselves:
At least five of the following are necessary with NPD for a diagnosis:
has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements)
is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love
believes that he or she is "special" and unique and can only be understood by other special or high-status people (or institutions)
requires excessive admiration
has a strong sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations
takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends
lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others
is often envious or believes others are envious of him or her
has arrogant affect, haughty behaviors or attitudes
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Borderlines: Poor self-image NPD- grandiose sense of self-importance
mood swings has arrogant affect, haughty behaviors or attitudes
bouts of anger sense of entitlement "I deserve this cause I"m so wonderful"
feelings of low self-worth lacking empathy "putting self in another's shoes"
sees others as all good/all bad envious of others/believes others envy her too
clings for fear o abandonment takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends
threatens suicide requires excessive admiration
self-destructive behavior is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love
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hi pavelle,
thanks for demystifying that this is a simple thing that someone on a message board can diagnose about us. I totally agree. As a child of two PD's (I believe), a lot of what we respond to is learned behavoir and "normal" reactions to projections - trying to hide or diminish our pain with alcohol, for example - to real abuse.
hugs pavelle - I see in you an incredible capacity to change because you seem to recognize yourself. And that is the most important and healthy thing we can do for ourselves. We are a lot alike pavelle.
pb
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Hi Pavelle
I’m sure I exhibited Borderline symptoms in my late teens and early 20s, but I’m not PD. And I drank a fair bit (and add ‘etc’ to that). I’m now 44 and can see that if I’d have known what therapy was, if I’d had access to it, if I’d talked to anyone about what my head was like, just maybe I could have had help earlier. I don’t know. I had to reach rock bottom, I had to find that my world was completely and utterly out of control before I would address my head (“Dear head, I think we have a problem”).
There’s a lot to be said I think for being the right age for analysis and reflection. Those who aren’t P disordered, who can think and reflect and go through the cycle of shock, anger, denial, grief, acceptance….will do it. I honestly think if your brain wants to do it – for basic survival reasons – then it will happen. With NPD, some brain functions – ability to self-reflect in particular – aren’t there it seems: they’re not present. No wonder they do don’t well in therapy, with NPD it seems an impossibility that they could?
It's not going to be that simple if he even stays past this crash of Ns loss (of me)
What do they do when supply is withdrawn? They find it elsewhere. Of course he’ll get over the crash, that’s how they function. There is no alternative.
This is where I get compassion. I also know, in my truth it is a lone journey, not unlike that of an alcoholic. No one can do it for them.
Pavelle, I doubt that he even knows a journey exists and even if kind of 'gets it', he’s not boarding that train. He doesn’t have the first clue about what it’s really about. Everything is supply. The ‘journey’ is supply (hey lets talk about me, great!). That’s as far as it goes. It ain’t gonna happen. And it has nothing to do with you, does it?
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Hi Write
Re: UK, 'care in the community'. I don’t have direct experience, only what I read in the papers, listen to on Radio 4 and see with my own eyes. Yes, community care is a huge improvement on those grisly inhuman institutions. But.
I think the idea of community care is being used to cut down the number of people who would benefit from being in hospital. Many NHS hospitals are closing (my local one has gone and the nearest A&E is now maybe 10 miles away, which is okay, but this town had a big hospital until the last few years). So folks who are suicidal are ending up in ‘care homes’, walking out of them and jumping off railway bridges.
Another factor is that our prisons are at bursting point: we’re at the maximum of the prison population (can’t remember if it’s 70,000 or 90,000). Maybe it’s coincidence but offenders, instead of being given prison sentences, are given ‘community service’ jobs. And those that are in prison, 70%-90% have some form of mental disturbance (from mild depression through to psychopathy).
There’s a discussion happening here right now about the length of sentences that child sex offenders receive. A man sent for ‘life’ is up for parole and could end up serving something like 5 years, and the victim’s family have mounted a campaign to stop this happening. But, prisons are at breaking point. How many people are on the much sensationalised sex-offenders register? 70,000. And some campaign groups want a Megan’s law introduced so that we know when we have a sex offender living next to a school. A man caught urinating in public can be on that register (indecent exposure) – so the register itself is questionable. And as for Megan’s Law (I hope I’ve got this correct, I’m talking from memory), well people who want to offend don’t have to do it on their doorstep. I find all this media chat about the issue hugely frustrating and worrying. Today’s Independent paper carries the front page headline “Prozac for paedophiles” (100 in prison will be tested with Prozac to see if it reduces the desire to offend). I don’t know. I have a little knowledge about all this and others have even less. It worries me that these are issues being debated publicly (risk of vigilantism) by folks who want to … do their stuff.
Back to care in the community – it saves money and takes the burden off hospitals but I see people in my town wandering about, not being ‘cared’ for. A few times I’ve called the police because I’ve seen someone walking unsteadily along the middle of a very busy dual carriageway (where nobody usually walks). It isn’t working perfectly, but then, what does I guess.
Hey. I guess I feel strongly about all this!
Sensitive and interesting book out recently ‘Stuart, a life backwards’ by Alexander Masters about a man from Cambridge, in and out of prison and care. “When Masters met Stuart, he was lying on a sidewalk in Cambridge, England. In this moving—and occasionally very funny—portrait, Masters follows his friend back in time to discover how a gregarious boy turned into a homeless drunk” Long excerpt here: http://www.bordersstores.com/features/feature.jsp?file=stuart
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Hi P,
Over here we have Ronald Reagan to thank for closing down almost all the mental hospitals. Of course, not enough resources for community homes were planned, and not enough support for families of the mentally ill so they could cope at home....so began the explosion in the homeless explosion.
Guess they're supposed to pull themselves up by their bootstraps. Except their bootstraps might be talking to them.
We need plenty of humane, intelligently-run mental hospitals. Over here the prison population is 1/3 mentally ill...and prisons aren't built to treat mental illness. Just saw a documentary on that and it's horrifying, both for the mentally ill and the prison staff who are trying to accomodate them safely.
Personally, I think all nonviolent offenders should be in halfway houses, wearing ankle bracelets, doing productive community service. But we just love our punsihments over here, that satisfying vengeful sentencing...and what happens to them after that is somebody else's problem. It's insane.
Hops
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bean,
I'm not a professional medical practitioner, but in the past, I did see some things that concerned me...when you told people I attacked you, and I hadn't even approached you in quite some time back then. That was the one thing I saw that hinted of an N'istic behavior, though no, I will not label or diagnose anyone. I'm learning that the personality labels are for my private knowledge, not to use on people to make them feel bad about themselves. That's never been my heart, actually, and I've been learning new ways of communicating that validate and honor people rather than shame and destroy them.
I once said that you remind me of Jodi...well, I've come to a place of loving her even, so I can love you as well.
~Laura
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Back to care in the community – it saves money and takes the burden off hospitals but I see people in my town wandering about, not being ‘cared’ for. A few times I’ve called the police because I’ve seen someone walking unsteadily along the middle of a very busy dual carriageway (where nobody usually walks). It isn’t working perfectly, but then, what does I guess.
Hey. I guess I feel strongly about all this!
does it make your eyes shine and you want to come up with programmes and solutions?!
That's how I feel about alzheimers...
My recent marriage (and soon divorce) to (don't laugh it's just sad) an N psychologist - must we be so damn hamster like!
it's one of life's facts: we choose relationships which are most like the issues we have unresolved with a parent ( maybe both parents...)
Personally, I think all nonviolent offenders should be in halfway houses, wearing ankle bracelets, doing productive community service.
absolutely!
But even in liberal progressive Britian there's a lunacy to sensible solutions: we give addicts money to pay their rent and buy food ( so we aren't patronising them- even though it is clear they then buy alcohol, or drugs and lose their homes or don't eat or feed their kids )
Why should people work for benefits? Let alone work off a debt to society- and anyway local businesses complain if people work for free and take away their right to earn money from that job...
It's become a liberal free-for-all which is only checked by conservative extremism! In searching for the ideal solutions we bypass the practical and realistic. And everyone suffers as a problem goes unchecked and gets worse.
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it's one of life's facts: we choose relationships which are most like the issues we have unresolved with a parent ( maybe both parents...)
WRITE is RIGHT! This is truth about N'ism and the children affected by it, in a very nice nutshell
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bean,
actually I don't know if I noticed that you were posting in a different handle a while ago. I tend not to notice those things when I'm busy with school and work and stuff. If you want, please tell me your new handle so I don't use bean anymore. I'm kewl with it. Yes, things are ok now between you and I.
moon, I'm sure in some families, there are children who don't have mental disorders even though the parents do, but from my personal experience with people I've come across, been friends with, etc, it's the exception rather than the rule. How can a child living in constant abnormality, grow up to be normal, barring a miracle of God and just a very strong inner sense of worth?
~Laura
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Hops, I’m a liberal at heart and I can see the problems. My Dad thinks we should bring back the death penalty. I shouldn’t even go in to those conversations these days!
Write
does it make your eyes shine and you want to come up with programmes and solutions?!
Well no, it makes me wish that those who can make a difference would do so differently. About what makes my eyes shine – I’ve been thinking about this an awful lot and the honest answer is, very, very little. Occasionally seeing someone ‘get it’ here for the better is wonderful. I’ve been motivated by anger and survival for so long. I see sadness and hurt and to alleviate that a little would be fulfilling …but. In a different life I might have been an aid worker or a foreign correspondent; I have an idea what motivates those choices. Then again, I am wary of anyone with a ‘cause’, anything extreme. Although I could get pretty extreme about childcare (at the same time thinking we need to have fewer children).
In searching for the ideal solutions we bypass the practical and realistic.
Yes. I was wondering, as I do, about the growing numbers of Eastern European immigrants we’re seeing. I mean it’s becoming obvious in this town, mainly Polish people who seem not to have learned English so – their employment is at the bottom end, probably below the minimum wage (£5.25 an hour I think) and I’m wondering, where are they living? How are they paying council taxes and fuel bills and all the other very expensive things we pay to live in this country? Is life here what they expected? Today I hear that no, they’re not happy because they’re living 15 to 30 people in a 3-bedroomed house. They’re taking low paid jobs and coming up against negative views from the older established immigrant populations. Ha, people! :?
Laura/ RM
How can a child living in constant abnormality, grow up to be normal,
It’s a tall order! But what’s normal? A child needs one person to give them a sense of self, one person to witness any abuse, one person to let the child know that they are lovable and loved. That saves a child from an abnormal family. Sure the child may grow up to be less than ‘normal’ but that doesn’t make the adult child abnormal. It’s not so black and white. A member here grew up with abusive blood parents but she had a caring, witnessing, helping person alongside them, and so seems to me to have grown up normal – more normal than me I think!
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Portia,
I agree with you...a child with 2 dysfunctional parents, needs a person in their life to show them they are loved and valued. I was referring to a child who NEVER knows that love, never has the person come along...that child, does not grow up to be normal in his/her perceptions, behaviors. I'm glad you had a person to help you through though. I am one of those people who comes along and walks through a 12 step codependency program, with the people God puts in my path...so people DO have that chance of living a healthy, normal life.
My definition of normal is well-adjusted with behavior that is appropriate for a given circumstance and having healthy boundaries as well as respecting another's boundaries.
~Laura
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Hi Laura
I was referring to a child who NEVER knows that love, never has the person come along...that child, does not grow up to be normal in his/her perceptions, behaviors.
Agreed. Sorry I misinterp’d.
My definition of normal is well-adjusted with behavior that is appropriate for a given circumstance and having healthy boundaries as well as respecting another's boundaries.
I like your definition. I’m not normal and I think I’m getting used to that idea, rather than worrying about it...
I'm glad you had a person to help you through though. well not for long (i wasn't talking about me before).
So self-diagnosis, I think I'm avoidant to an extent now and changing those underlying beliefs probably comes down to taking action and practice, facing fears.
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hi all,
This is a very interesting discussion. I was having a very similar conversation with my therapist just last week. I think I can look at this objectively, despite having two N parents myself. Here's why: I really don't feel defensive about this at all.
The thing is, late last year I finally admitted to myself that I need therapy long-term to get better. To get better boundaries, to learn to feel feelings, to respond to those feelings appropriately, to learn to parent (and often reparent) myself, to soothe myself when I'm feeling bad rather than relying on others to do it, etc. I realized that growing up with the parents I have impacts almost every aspect of my emotional life (which often trickles into the physical realm of things - emotions can and do produce my anxiety which has real negative physical symptoms). This is not to say growing up with the parents I did impacted almost every aspect of my life now in a negative way. Growing up with two N parents had positives, believe it or not.
Here are the positives:
1. I'm very sensitive to others. I can empathize and react to others emotional needs often before anyone else around that person. I "get it" when people feel bad and I respond to them a lot.
2. I've learned to trust my own inner voice. When everything around you at home is tumultuous, you seek out and in my case find a sanctuary of goodness and safety - in my case, school, learning and books always provided a safety net for me. I had some very supportive caring teachers who taught me the difference between right and wrong, good and bad, despite my parents. See, I did not buy into their bullcrap stories a lot of the time. On some level I knew they were "crazy." What they said didn't jive with the morality I knew existed other places in the world.
The negatives:
1. I've learned to put the needs of my disordered parents above mine, to the detriment of my own well being.
2. I haven't learned to deal with conflict in healthy ways.
3. I have weak boundaries and thus feel frustrated a lot of times when I need to have stronger ones but don't feel able to enact them.
4. I'm suffering the affects of remembering abusive episodes from my past. I need to reframe those experiences and emotions into positives. For example, if I felt I was the rebel in my family when I was a teenager because I stuck up to my parents. Instead of thinking I was "the bad kid," I can choose to think "I was courageous. I stood up against the abuse and told them (in my way) it was wrong. I was looking out for me and my brothers and sisters."
The thing is, we don't grow up in a vacuum - I know I didn't anyway. There are lots of other influences in our lives..
what do others think that had two N and/or abusive parents?
penelope bean
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Portia and Penelope,
Thank you so much for sharing about yourselves with the group here. I really admire you both for the progress you have made.
It's so sad to me that neither Jodi nor her parents can seem to understand that she is the way she is, because of the way they raised her and the times they were not there for her or put too much responsibility on her.
Jodi would say that she "never wanted to be a kid, EVER...I always wanted to be an adult and I acted very mature at a young age." That is sad to me, because she has tried to also raise her own daughter in that way. Her daughter is a "rebel" to that way of thinking, though, and so she is scorned and mocked by her mother. It's just all really sad, and I got to experience a taste of what that daughter goes through, while staying with Jodi. There is no child that can always be "one step ahead" of the parent...there is no way someone can always be "seen and not heard" and still feel valued. There is no way for a child to measure up to a parent's standards, that has no defined "right or wrong" because every time that child feels it begins to achieve, the parent says "no, that's not what I told you to do" and changes the rules suddenly, so it creates a reality that is confusing and unattainable.
It breaks my heart to know that anyone endured such a life as a child, and I pray someday to make a difference.
~Laura
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I was wondering, as I do, about the growing numbers of Eastern European immigrants we’re seeing. I mean it’s becoming obvious in this town, mainly Polish people who seem not to have learned English so – their employment is at the bottom end, probably below the minimum wage (£5.25 an hour I think) and I’m wondering, where are they living? How are they paying council taxes and fuel bills and all the other very expensive things we pay to live in this country? Is life here what they expected? Today I hear that no, they’re not happy because they’re living 15 to 30 people in a 3-bedroomed house. They’re taking low paid jobs and coming up against negative views from the older established immigrant populations. Ha, people!
I have written about this before- the fact that people are 'sold' new lives in the UK and often pass through several Convention countries in their bid for political asylum...only to be vulnerable to exploitation once they get there from slum landlords/ rogue employers etc.
In China there is a big education programme to try to prevent people giving away their life savings to people traffickers & to educate people about their vulnerabilities to drugs/prostitution/slavery if they become illegals even in developed countries ( where they assume since such behaviours are illegal they will not be tolerated or will not exist )
I imagine there's nothing like being voiceless as a foreigner with no status, terrified of detection, trying to make your way without being harmed or exploited.
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Yes.
Compassion for the desperate everywhere.
Africa.............
:cry: