Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Stormchild on June 19, 2006, 09:15:20 AM
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Looks like someone arrived with a spray can and a carton of eggs about 20 minutes after I locked the conflict thread on Friday. ;-) I expected it to draw fire; that's why I locked it. On another level, that's partly why I posted it when I did. Hopefully, if the focus shifted to me, others would be left alone for the weekend and there might be peace in the valley.
Based on the results, I think I was justified. 'Drawing fire' is very different from 'fanning flames'. I'm tired of seeing people jerked around in a place that's supposed to be for healing and learning how not to be jerked around. Since I've been a target of this myself, I think I had the right to intervene when others seemed to be targeted. And since we now have an up front admission from someone that they relish conflict, it's hard to say that I was wrong to suspect that might be the case.
That's pretty much all I wanted to achieve; draw the fire, and get the dynamic out in the open. Not to condemn anyone, but to give people a chance to make informed and aware choices about the situation. I don't want to become 'enmeshed' in this myself, so I may not be as responsive here as I have been in the past, but I'll be here.
Which brings me neatly to the subject of 'splitting', because this was a gray thing to do. Not all good, not all bad. I'm OK with that; the whole situation is gray. Conflict is not inherently bad; deliberately provoking it between others without their knowledge or consent, however, can hardly be considered constructive. There are no black or white responses to this situation available - not in the real world, anyway.
So here's the 'splitting' post from the locked thread, available for comment.
[Edited per request; see downthread]
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I was thinking this weekend of things I left out of this thread on Friday morning. One of the most important things I didn't get into was the concept of 'splitting'. Which from my reading seems to have two meanings.
The first is something we all do as children and sometimes hang onto well past childhood - the idea that people and situations etc. must be either all good, or all bad. Including us. If we aren't perfect, then we are utterly without value. That kind of thing.
This is understandable for kids, they need strong bonds to their parents, and they need to place absolute trust in their protectors when they are young... but it's a recipe for disaster if we don't outgrow it. Because if you're only ever all good or all bad, then it's impossible for you to ever admit that you might have a few flaws somewhere, while being pretty darned incredible somewhere else. If you can't admit any flaws are there, you're stuck with them. And can't grow, or change, or heal.
A crucial element in the conflict cycles I think I see does relate to splitting in this sense of the word. And it's an important part of the third-party dynamic I was talking about.
Sometimes, two people in conflict reach the point of exchanging very specific criticisms of one another. These criticisms may only be meant to hurt, but sometimes they aren't. Sometimes they contain extremely valuable pieces of truth. Absorbing them, sitting with them, thinking how they might be true and if so what that might mean, can be one of the single biggest steps a person can take towards healing. Merely setting the need to defend the self aside, long enough to even consider doing this, can be a major triumph.
But if a third party is witnessing the confrontation, and hasn't resolved their own splitting yet, they can feel an overwhelming desire to rush in and invalidate the criticism. Because they see it through that split lens. What they see is X making Y all bad, rather than X pointing out some problems that might make Y even more good - if Y could see and address them. So in they rush, well-intentioned but out of touch with the process that is actually going on, to quickly assure everyone that Y is really perfect just the way he is and X is just a nasty old grouchy meanie... which invalidates any useful truth coming from X, and elevates any distortions coming from Y to the status of Holy Writ.
When that happens, the momentum towards healing is lost. 'Making it all better' has prevented it from really becoming better. Peace at any price seems awfully expensive when you look at it from that perspective. Peace at the price of health? Peace at the price of honesty? Genuine peace has to include both. I can guarantee that nobody here has ever met a truly serene person who is not honest and striving towards health. It just doesn't work that way.
I'm making a mental tally - I can think of at least ten different instances of 'drive-by invalidation' like this, involving at least ten different people, right off the bat, going back to my first time here in '05. Including me, in both possible roles, giver as well as receiver. I am not casting stones or blame. This is something I think we N-trauma survivors are especially prone to, because Ns are absolute splitters. They split off their bad, and project it onto others, often their kids, often us. We learn to split in self-defense - or rather we may never learn how to stop splitting. We aren't Ns, but we can become so trapped in the all-good-or-all-bad dilemma that we overreact to even the mildest perceived criticism, thus we may not be capable of growth and change in certain crucial aspects of ourselves. And this may carry a terrible price for us, one that lasts throughout our lives.
Here's a link that talks about splitting in families of borderline personality sufferers - but some of the issues affect NPD families too...
http://www.borderlinepersonalitytoday.com/main/famarticle.htm
One of the most important things about this type of splitting is that preserving it prolongs conflict - because it maintains enmeshment. As long as we think of someone as all bad, or all good, we have to find another place to 'store' the good, or bad, traits and characteristics they do have, that we are denying them. Often, that storage place is us, especially for the 'good' traits ;-) - otherwise, it's often a third party who is chosen to play the role of scapegoat, for the 'bad' traits. This brings everyone right into a Karpman Triangle again...
There is also a paradox associated with splitting, as I see it: when you've split someone off as all bad, you still can't seem to 'let go' of them. Not really... there's always that longing to 'check'... But if you stop splitting, and give them back all the facets of their personality, it becomes much easier to give up on them - for a while, or forever, if necessary - when that is the only way forward. How can this be? Shouldn't it be easier to 'write someone off' if you regard them as purely bad?
It works the way it does because once you stop splitting, you are no longer carrying part of their personality within yourself. You're no longer enmeshed. You have returned to them what is theirs, good as well as bad; your integrity and theirs - in the sense of wholeness - is restored; and that makes it easier for you to own what is yours, separately, and do what you need to do to protect it.
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The other type of 'splitting' I encounter in my reading is one of the types of triangulation.
X tells Y things that Z has said about Y behind Y's back; these may or may not be true. X tells Z things that Y has said about Z behind Z's back; these likewise may or may not be true. If X is particularly skilled, X can elicit specific things to tell each of the two parties, embellish a little here and there for effect, and then claim in self defense that it was all true - sidestepping the issues of how destructively the truths were handled, and how intentional the destructiveness was.
As long as Y and Z continue to look at each other as the main problem, rather than at the game being played by X, they can go round and round in fabricated conflict for years. The payoff that X gets is fairly obvious - a sense of being 'the power behind the scenes', and the ability to feel contempt for both Y and Z for not seeing through such an obvious maneuver. The contempt keeps X from ever having to think about just how badly Y and Z are being harmed, and just how dishonest the whole interaction really is. It also keeps X isolated from any chance of meaningful, vulnerable, authentic relationship with either Y or Z, both of whom may actually be well worth knowing as real human beings rather than chess pieces.
In my reading I find this type of triangulation commonly described as a favorite pastime of people with specific diagnoses, and as though it only happens in an inpatient setting [patients playing staff members off one another].
I think it's much more prevalent than that. I've seen no end of it among family, friends, and associates. I work with people who do it automatically in their working interactions. There's an extra payoff to the game at work: if you keep your perceived competitors at each other's throats, you can make them look ineffective, and get more goodies for yourself. Interestingly, several of my coworkers have recently begun comparing notes, and at least one workplace X has been 'outed'. He doesn't know what's happened, he just sees certain people getting along now despite his best efforts, and he's totally bewildered. It's very encouraging... the bewilderment isn't hurting him any and it might just be the source of an awakening.
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Hi Storm
shall i put my questions here - the ones I have put on my other thread, re splitting and 'divide and rule'?
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hi storm,
thanks for the long explanation. I found it extremely helpful.
penelope
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Hi Stormy,
I found the info about splitting very helpful, too. Thank you.
That's a lot of work to digest all that research for us here, much appreciated.
I'm confused about the spray can and eggs, though.
I really have trouble keeping track.
Dunno that it's that important, I forget who I may at one point
have decided to be "wary" around, and just notice a new post
that I find interesting, helpful or stimulating, and go right ahead
and respond. It doesn't matter. I don't think anybody stays up at
night plotting ways to hurt me or sow discord. Sometimes with some people
it just seems reflexive, but I don't ever think it's malicious. Do you think I'm
too trustful?
Rubber bunny me. Unless it's fresh anger toward me, or something
that seems mean...I just keep on posting. I literally do have trouble
remembering all the stories and which are whose, sometimes. I
think Pennyplant mentioned this today (I was relieved, PP...it's not
just me!)
Anyway, Storm, I appreciate your efforts. I don't think you need to "draw fire"
to protect everyone unless you're in Karpman Rescue mode, though! :)
Hops
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Thanks, Storm
If I'd read all this in its original form, there's not much doubt I would have quit about halfway through, but you've done a wonderful job of making it digestable. Reduced to its simplest form, it reminds me of an Eleanor Roosevelt quote I read yesterday:
"Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people."
You wrote: "One of the most important things about this type of splitting is that preserving it prolongs conflict - because it maintains enmeshment..." This rings so true to me as I consider the many different ways I've seen this played out in my life, never knowing what exactly to call it, just knowing it was sick and wrong. I appreciate your insights and your efforts to communicate them here. No sincere attempt to communicate truth is ever wasted :)
Hope
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I just read this with a different viewpoint.
Looks like someone arrived with a spray can and a carton of eggs about 20 minutes after I locked the conflict thread on Friday. :wink: I expected it to draw fire; that's why I locked it. On another level, that's partly why I posted it when I did. Hopefully, if the focus shifted to me, others would be left alone for the weekend and there might be peace in the valley.
Based on the results, I think I was justified. 'Drawing fire' is very different from 'fanning flames'. I'm tired of seeing people jerked around in a place that's supposed to be for healing and learning how not to be jerked around. Since I've been a target of this myself, I think I had the right to intervene when others seemed to be targeted. And since we now have an up front admission from someone that they relish conflict, it's hard to say that I was wrong to suspect that might be the case.
That's pretty much all I wanted to achieve; draw the fire, and get the dynamic out in the open. Not to condemn anyone, but to give people a chance to make informed and aware choices about the situation. I don't want to become 'enmeshed' in this myself, so I may not be as responsive here as I have been in the past, but I'll be here.
I think this is about me, trying not to be too n-ish about it.
Is it Storm?
Or is it about someone else?
Whoever it is about, it feels like a very big taunt to me.
It’s even worse that it doesn’t say who it means, so we could have a few people thinking “does she mean me?”. I haven’t checked all the posts and times and so on, and who might have said “I relish conflict” (did anyone actually say that?) but I would guess it’s me?
I don’t relish conflict. I don’t like being persecuted. I don’t like being talked about in oblique ways and I don’t like someone trying to get others to take their viewpoint about me.
You think I jerk people around Storm?
*Edit in: Conflict is not inherently bad; deliberately provoking it for fun, however, can hardly be considered constructive.
You think I’m provoking conflict for fun, or that anyone here is? You get to decide that Storm? *
Doctor Grossman, this is pretty offensive stuff I think.
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Hi Jac,
Boy, imho, that was an excellent mouthful you just posted! For what it's worth, I especially appreciated your blameless recognition/compassion regarding others who might be in a different place, emotionally.
I think you nailed a crucial part of healing. Is there anything we learn more fully than that which comes after a painful cringe in the mirror? I know I've been guilty a million times of wading in when my little scrambled brain decided X was pushing around Z. So I'm grateful when I can remember I haven't been knighted Spokesgal for the Possibly Dissed Zs of the World. Sometimes, I think, priceless exchanges can happen in a group when more than a few folks just hold off on the Judge-o-Meter a sec and poke around for a deeper truth, messes and all. It's one of the things I love most about the chatting here...
Hi Portia,
I really valued what you've written about free choice/free will and not wanting to impose your world view on others. I see loads of saved emotional energy for me when I can remember my own vision is just a tiny glimpse of the world, and there are so many other ideas to consider. I'm glad you put out that reminder, and I think you're strong to keep posting even if this thread is stirring things up for you.
Hi Stormy,
I see you going out on a limb for ideas you see as helpful and potentially valuable, not just here on the board but in all our lives. Thank you for taking that risk and trying so hard. Are guts infectious?
Best to all,
LoH
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I'm printing this (the definition/description of splitting) out for further reading... it makes so much sense!
Thanks!!
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Hi, Jac
Sometimes when we rush in to be the spokes person for Z, aren't we robbing Z of the opportunity to learn to be a spokesperson for herself? Aren't we rendering her voiceless, by not letting her speak for herself?
You're right that's a good question, tricky even. I'd absolutely agree that sometimes, especially in a prolonged group settting (FOO, workplace, volunteer org., etc.), an aggressive 'spokesperson' can really hinder other voices, not only person Z, but anyone else at the table. I've definitely seen people, beginning with a parent, use 'speaking for someone' as a control tactic.
Maybe it's a semantic hang-up for me, but I'd be slow to call anything but the most extreme examples rendering someone voiceless. Maybe because it sounds absolute? Short of some terrible pressure or power imbalance, doesn't person Z still have the free will/opportunity to speak up, even strongly disagree with whoever's spoken 'for them' if they choose to? I don't think of my choice to speak as taking that same decision away from anyone else. Free will all around...with consequences, of course.
Part of what makes this tricky, imho, is the question of intent. Looking in the mirror, I can't remember speaking up for anyone with indifference toward how that person felt, or hoping to silence them. My personal swamp would include poor impulse control around watching something___(mean/disrespectful, whatever) happen to another person and remaining silent about it.
One question I try to ask myself is who I'm really speaking up for, me or Z? Because, short of outright verbal abuse/discrimination/lies/accusations, shouldn't Z be the arbiter or what is or isn't okay for Z? I try to ask myself what my intent is/the possible consequences are before I wade in to a verbal skirmish.
I think I'm generally driven to speak up for a 3rd person out of my own needs. Is that a bad thing? Sometimes yes, sometimes no. I have a powerful urge for a level playing field, whatever that means in my subjective little head at any given moment. My 1st trip to the principal's office, age 5, was for dropping a rock on the foot of the playground bully, who was leading the jeers of a whole circle around a sobbing little girl and wouldn't stop no matter what I said. The playground supervisors blew me off. So I went for the rock. This is when I'd like to tell you I wouldn't do it again, but maybe I would.
The compassion's there. I'm working on the reactionary part.
:D
Best,
LoH
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Thanks everybody :oops: - this was awkward, so I'm finding myself tonguetied [fingertied?].
I'm glad if good comes from any of it for anyone, and that's really about all I can say.
Hops, thanks for the Karpman alert. It's a valuable piece of truth. I've been sitting with it, and it is helping me.
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I don't know who this Karpman dood is. I guess I'll have to investigate. I don't like the label, though. So even if it is "Karpman" of storm, what does that mean hops? I mean, I can research it and wonder about what you meant, but I still won't know what you intended unless you explain. please explain, K?
This is a trigger for me I guess - when you dismiss something said in honesty (I think) so easily, it seems. Is this necessary? Does your reality always have to be superimposed on everyone else's? I don't know, I'm just grumpy about this I guess. Sometimes posts (ie people) should just be let be. Like, given some peace. I don't know if I'm expressing this well at all.
storm, I wonder if the phenomena you've described has anything at all to do with alcohol. I think this because when I used to drink, I used to get very mean, sort of like I've often observed others get here at times. I wonder if it is just that simple.
penelope
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Thank you LoH for speaking to me. It's great not be ignored. Thank you.
Hi Portia,
I really valued what you've written about free choice/free will and not wanting to impose your world view on others. I see loads of saved emotional energy for me when I can remember my own vision is just a tiny glimpse of the world, and there are so many other ideas to consider. I'm glad you put out that reminder,
Yes, interpreting what you’ve said (please correct me if I’m wrong): I think Storm is a fantastic asset to the board. Storm provides the board with oodles of great information and interpretation. Thank you Storm for doing this. I like reading your stuff and find it helpful.
I don’t want to impose my world view on anyone. I do think the opening paragraphs of your thread here Storm are offensive. I think they are scapegoating someone as yet unnamed, but I think that someone is me. I think I’m allowed to voice my opinion of that LoH.
and I think you're strong to keep posting even if this thread is stirring things up for you.
You’re correct it’s “stirring things up” - but for me? Do I need to be strong to have an opinion? I don't think so. It’s continuing to stir up the unresolved situation between Storm and myself from the ‘Patience’ thread. Storm appears to be ignoring me and is trying now to get others here to ignore me. I don’t think that’s okay. Do you, or don't you see that happening here? I'm not asking for a reply, just posing the question, okay?
I’m stating what I see, I think I (or someone else! the lack of using names rather clouds the matter) am/is being persecuted, exceptionally cleverly. I'm not imagining that, the evidence is above. I believe I am allowed to speak under these circumstances.
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Hi penelope - I can't answer for Hops but I can answer for the meaning I took from her words.
Hops was cautioning me to be careful when & how I intervene in situations because it's easy to intervene more for myself than for others. That's the Rescuer position on the Karpman Triangle. Hops is right, we usually get something back when we help or intervene, it's never entirely pure. That's partly what I meant by describing my actions and the situation as gray.
In diverting the focus to myself on Friday, I got enough additional information to be reasonably sure, for myself, what was going on. What I thought was going on could deceive and harm others, if I was correct about it; it deceived and harmed me, previously, so I needed no further proof of that potential.
There's an ethical dilemma in that: do I only have the right to act to avert damage to others if I myself have not been damaged? But it's specious, because by that reasoning, Mothers Against Drunk Driving would not be allowed to exist, Nick Berg's father would not be allowed to express his opinions [whether or not we agree with them] of the war that killed his son, and citizens would not be allowed to petition politicians to put up traffic lights and stop signs at dangerous intersections if their own friends and family were injured or killed there. In actuality, much of the 'civilizing' action in 'civilization' comes from people who know what can go wrong because it already has, they have paid the price, and they don't want that to happen to anyone else.
Others are free to ignore, reject, add to, or process differently any and all of the information I obtain and disclose here on any subject.
But I thought, and I think, that others should have this information, and know when games are possibly being played, especially here! So that they can make free-will choices about whether, when, and how much to participate in them.
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A few thoughts about not engaging directly with Portia and Sela here. It's awkward, it's artificial feeling. But it comes from my having been fully convinced that neither of them was communicating with me in "good faith" during a recent debacle, in which finding pretexts to take offense at me were apparently the primary objective, rather than opening and resolving issues that gave rise to conflict.
I'm half a century old, and have no interest in that game. When I see persuasive evidence that it has been dropped, and replaced with good faith efforts to communicate with me, I'll resume talking.
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Hi Penelope,
Sorry it wasn't clear. I wasn't dismissing Storm's post at all. It was valuable to me. I was just noticing the "draw fire" part. (The Karpman reference was to an earlier thread...you can type that in the Search box to read up. It's interesting stuff.)
And you're right, I do post a lot. Seem to have an opinion on just about everything. I'm sorry that's annoying to you, but I can see how that could be.
Stormy,
You know, when I read your post I didn't even think back to your earlier situation with Sela and Portia! I just thought that this was interesting material, and knew you were also talking about interpersonal things indirectly, but I just didn't focus on that, I got into the meat of your post. Now that you've mentioned it, I do think it's good to talk to people directly when you have issues, though.
Sounds hopeful to me overall...that there might be resolution soon? (Ever the optimist....)
Thanks for taking my Karpman mention so gracefully. That's just the spirit I intended the observation in and I'm glad it helped and wasn't hurtful.
Hugs,
Hops
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Storm
at this point I don’t wish you to talk to me, I want you to stop persecuting me. Will you not say things like? -
Looks like someone arrived with a spray can and a carton of eggs about 20 minutes after I locked the conflict thread on Friday. :wink:
Belittling my thread. To me the wink suggests sharing a joke with your audience, getting them ‘on your side’.
if the focus shifted to me, others would be left alone for the weekend
Others would be left alone suggests others were being attacked. Were they? Is that a fact?
Based on the results, I think I was justified.
So you’re ‘right’ Storm in your analysis of the situation? Does anyone else’s view count?
I'm tired of seeing people jerked around in a place that's supposed to be for healing and learning how not to be jerked around.
You’re saying I deliberately jerk people around i.e. manipulate them for what, for fun? You’re wrong about me.
Since I've been a target of this myself,
By me? You think I jerked you around. You’re wrong about me. You don’t seem to me to care about my view, which is all on the Patience thread. You ignored all of my explaining and apologising. You haven’t talked about it. You’ve decided I was out to get you or something and made up your mind. There doesn’t seem to be any room for reconciliation to me. Not when you’re entrenched in your view about me.
I think I had the right to intervene when others seemed to be targeted.
What you think is what you think. It doesn’t mean it’s accurate. I wasn’t targeting anyone. Your inference is incorrect.
And since we now have an up front admission from someone that they relish conflict,
This pretty much proves to me (by inference, not deduction, so it’s very difficult to prove isn’t it Storm?) that you mean me. I said “I need it” on my thread. What I needed was to be able to speak up about a bad piece of behaviour. I did not say that I relished conflict. That’s your interpretation.
it's hard to say that I was wrong to suspect that might be the case.
You were wrong to suspect that might be the case.
That's pretty much all I wanted to achieve; draw the fire, and get the dynamic out in the open.
To scapegoat. To whistle blow when you think a crime is about to be committed? There was no crime in my head. You wanted everyone to see what a bad person I am?
Not to condemn anyone,
Just to point the finger and ...
but to give people a chance to make informed and aware choices about the situation.
...make sure everyone knows that I’m a bad person and to ignore me or persecute me?
Conflict is not inherently bad; deliberately provoking it for fun, however, can hardly be considered constructive.
So I deliberately provoke conflict for fun Storm?
I feel sick. Now I am emotional. Do you think this is FUN Storm? Is it fun to you? It isn’t fun in the least to me, not at all. Please don’t think I’m posting this for fun, or one-upmanship, or to appeal to an audience, or to make you the ‘bad guy’ and me the ‘good guy’. I’m posting this to get the facts – or at least different interpretations of the facts – out into the open. You’re good at skirting around the facts Storm, pointing fingers but not naming the goat, being general but not specific. I’ve had enough of this and you’re still doing it:
neither of them was communicating with me in "good faith" during a recent debacle, in which finding pretexts to take offense at me were apparently the primary objective, rather than opening and resolving issues that gave rise to conflict.
At least you've named me. Your inferences are wrong about my motivations. I want you to stop this scapegoating me. Please.
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Hi Portia,
You're welcome. For what it's worth, I always read your posts, all of them. Re. what I wrote, and your question about interpretation:
Hi Portia,
I really valued what you've written about free choice/free will and not wanting to impose your world view on others. I see loads of saved emotional energy for me when I can remember my own vision is just a tiny glimpse of the world, and there are so many other ideas to consider. I'm glad you put out that reminder,
Yes, interpreting what you’ve said (please correct me if I’m wrong): I think Storm is a fantastic asset to the board. Storm provides the board with oodles of great information and interpretation. Thank you Storm for doing this. I like reading your stuff and find it helpful.
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Thank you for asking, because that's not what I meant. I said what I did to you, Jac, and Storm directly, because I meant those words directly. I meant what I wrote to you as acknowledgment and a compliment about words from you that I found very helpful. What I had to say to Storm was said to her, not you. I'm sorry if writing all three of you in the same post confused the issue.
I said what I did Portia, trying to encourage you to voice your opinion. I think everybody's voice here is valuable.
You’re correct it’s “stirring things up” - but for me? Do I need to be strong to have an opinion? I don't think so. It’s continuing to stir up the unresolved situation between Storm and myself from the ‘Patience’ thread. Storm appears to be ignoring me and is trying now to get others here to ignore me. I don’t think that’s okay. Do you, or don't you see that happening here? I'm not asking for a reply, just posing the question, okay?
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Of course, you're right; a person doesn't need to be strong to have an opinion. But, imho (which is all I've got) a person does need to be strong to keep posting despite feeling persecuted and ignored, which you've said. If I felt that way, there's a pretty good chance I'd head for the hills rather than keep posting. I appreciate that about you, and meant it as a compliment, Portia. Really.
My interpretation of what's going on here, if that's your question, is that Storm is posting about recurring patterns she's seen here and that she didn't mention anyone by name for good reason. As to whether she's ignoring you, I wouldn't say that, because my guess would be that she reads your posts. My observation is that she is choosing not to engage. I have two thoughts about that. On one hand, I feel for you, because you seem hurt and I wish you weren't. On the other hand, Stormy was direct back on the Patience thread about her reluctance to 'speak' to you again and her reasons. (I haven't read any hint that she wants others to ignore you) So, speaking only for me, I'm puzzled as to why you keep addressing posts to someone who told you in a polite way, some time ago, that she was done talking, especially since you've voiced that feeling ignored is a trigger for you. Especially posts that question her sincerity and seem to make implications. From way over here, I see you feeding your own bad feeling, and I wince, because doesn't that hurt?
As far as what is and isn't okay goes, imho it's perfectly okay for anyone to stop talking to someone if they feel it's best for them. I think it's an important step in self-healing. For what it's worth, the reason I answered this post from you, Portia, and not your last is because now I get the sense that you're listening. We all have defenses, and one of mine is that I shut up when I don't feel heard.
Take good care,
LoH
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hi LOH,
I think you've perfectly described a dynamic that I couldn't describe.
As far as what is and isn't okay goes, imho it's perfectly okay for anyone to stop talking to someone if they feel it's best for them.
Portia, you should try to respect this: when someone says, "I don't want to talk anymore" they're in essence saying it's too painful. Something I've noticed is that I've PM'd you to tell you the same thing and you said "I think you should put this on the board, it's obvious you need support!" Hey, I don't need support, I have myself Portia. I am strong. Stronger than you think. I just want you to realize, you're not helping me at the moment. I need some peace. I told you that I don't want to engage with you, in essence. Please don't read more into it than that. I also explained my reason (I want to keep this as a healthy place for me).
I know that it seems to you that I'm agreeing with someone else here, and that they've had some kind of influence over me, but it's really not like that Portia. I came back from a week long hiatus, to a place I deeply feel is good and about healing, and found it had taken an ugly turn. I decided not to follow, that's all.
penelope
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Right back at you, Jac:
Good for you!!! I also like your candor. I have thoughts like this all the time about some of my "crazy" behavior. I know myself. I'm perfectly capable of going there again, that's why I have to avoid certain situations/people sometimes.
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And there is another mouthful, imho, the whole world would be better off accepting about themselves. 'Cause, I'm pretty old, and I have yet to meet a single person, starting with me, the rock-dropper, who isn't capable of some pretty demented stuff in a given moment. Personally, I feel luckier, and stronger, for whatever clarity I've scrambled to about the off-the-charts tendencies in my makeup.
:o :shock: :) :D :lol:
best to you,
LoH
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Hi Stormy,
You said you didn't want to talk with me any more and you blocked me from pm'ing you so I've tried to respect that and have not posted to you.....not even posted to any of your threads (I think? Or maybe I did? I know I'm trying not to).
However, if you're going to post about me and especially about what you've decided my intentions are/were then it almost seems like you're trying to communicate to me (not with me, mind you).
I like two sided games that allow both people in. I think it's fairer that way. One sided ones aren't fair at all. I think that kind of making statements about how you've interpreted stuff, especially about another person's motives, intentions/what's in their heart....Stormy..........is not at all fair, when you also decide that only you are allowed to speak and that you won't respond to the one(s) you're speaking about. I think complaining about being ignored and then ignoring others isn't fair either. And talking "to" them rather than "with" them.......is childish and manipulative behaviour. Sorry Storm, but that's what I think. Not to harm you. Not to make you the bad guy. Only because you're making this big stink about others being jerked around while jerking people around and because I've behaved in messed up/screwed up ways myself, lot's of times and needed to just stop.
It's just weird to see you acting so unfair. What's up Stormy? What's going on?
I'd rather discuss whatever issues peacefully with you Storm. I'm not looking for "pretexts to take offense" at you and never have been. Sorry you've decided that I am or have been.
Sela
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LoH
Thanks for the compliment and for giving me the chance to see how I’d mis-read your post! Easy to misunderstand eh? I thought anyone talking to me on this thread would be ‘telling me off’ somehow! Easy to do, emotional thinking. Glad if I say anything that makes sense or resonates along the way. Sorry I am a bit involved here and likely to be prickly I guess, misinterpreting.
As far as what is and isn't okay goes, imho it's perfectly okay for anyone to stop talking to someone if they feel it's best for them.
I agree. But I don’t think it’s okay to then make derogatory remarks that directly target the person they’re not talking to.
I think it's an important step in self-healing. For what it's worth, the reason I answered this post from you, Portia, and not your last is because now I get the sense that you're listening.
Gosh yes I’m listening. Always am. And thinking hard. Don’t always say so. Sometimes I say little here. Sometimes it’s very pointed, what I say. It’s always the truth, my truth, but I use the actual words fairly carefully most of the time I hope. Why did you think I wasn’t listening? Which post? The one where you wanted me to talk about why I said what I did to Storm? Things like "No you're not sorry Storm"? That was between Storm and me. Storm most likely knows what that meant. Okay? Your perception is yours. It wasn't meant for you. I'm sorry LoH but it wasn't meant for you and I didn't want to discuss it with you. That was a boundary. I listened and decided not to engage about my words to Storm with you. You still want me to? I will if you want. It will be for you, not Storm, not me. You decide okay? I'm willing. I know what I said and I know why. I don't feel the need to defend it but I will explain it if you want me to.
We all have defenses, and one of mine is that I shut up when I don't feel heard.
I might shut up. Or I might yak away terribly. Or maybe I don’t care if I’m not heard? Maybe I care about equality, fairness, honesty. And compassion too. But compassion at the price of my integrity? No. That’s just how I am.
Take care too LoH. Thanks for talking. I appreciate it. I'm serious about the other thing. No worries either way.
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Penelope, i
if you don’t want to talk to me, don’t talk to me. Okay?
Portia, you should try to respect this: when someone says, "I don't want to talk anymore" they're in essence saying it's too painful.
How do you know what someone else means? I should try to respect. I almost swore then. I should try to respect. Give me strength. I’m tired now. I do respect. It don’t do me no good it seems!
If you don’t want to talk to me, don’t talk to me. Your choice. Don’t make it my responsibility. You came to me on PM, I didn’t come to you. Facts.
Please don’t talk about me either. That’s rude. Not saying you would, just making a general comment. Thanks.
Come on, have a heart eh? - this - little pile of doo-dah:
I came back from a week long hiatus, to a place I deeply feel is good and about healing, and found it had taken an ugly turn.
Because of what or who Penelope? Who are you blaming or shaming here for your board not being as you want it on your return?
Someone tell me to sod off now please. I’m running out of politeness and simple consideration for other people’s states of minds. I have a mind too and it’s weary. Better go. Take care all.
-
Can I request a time out folks? I get the impression there's a lot of feelings running high here and maybe we could all benefit from a bit of time out?
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H&H thanks for that. I'm away for the day. Tired now. Too much. Thanks!
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Hi Portia,
You're welcome for the compliment. Thanks for asking for clarification, 'cause it is so easy to misunderstand and take things personally once prickliness sets in. Me too, there (no wonder most critters avoid a catcus). No worries, I didn't take it personally, and, imho, it's big of you to apologize while feeling prickly, I appreciate it.
Gosh yes I’m listening. Always am. And thinking hard. Don’t always say so. Sometimes I say little here. Sometimes it’s very pointed, what I say. It’s always the truth, my truth, but I use the actual words fairly carefully most of the time I hope. Why did you think I wasn’t listening? Which post? The one where you wanted me to talk about why I said what I did to Storm? Things like "No you're not sorry Storm"?
[/color]
Yes, that post, though not 'cause of what you said about your words to Storm. I appreciate that you set that boundary and applaud you for that, for what it's worth. And respect it. I think you've already explained your POV on that issue with care and thoroughness.
This is the part that suggested to me that you didn't 'hear' what I'd written.
I've been thinking about your post. I wonder if you want me to reply, or you wanted to make your views known and a reply from me isn't necessary? I don't mind either way. I feel you're ....disappointed maybe? Confused? Not sure how you feel about this.
[/color]
I try to be careful with my language, too. Professional affliction. From my POV, subjective as it is, I thought my post/questions to you were straightforward. I said I was "curious about your goal", "I would really like to understand," and said I was puzzled. The fact that you responded by questioning whether I really wanted a reply and questioned what I was feeling, to me, indicated several possibilities. Maybe you didn't understand my post, or didn't believe me, or were in a place, in your own thinking, of reading so far between the lines here that you couldn't process plainspoken words for what they were? Bottom line, I didn't think you'd heard me, and I couldn't think of a simpler way to express what I said. I saw your post as a genuine expression of where you were coming from and appreciated it. Conversationally, though, it felt like a dead end. My sense was that you were upset, and I saw a minefield of ways I could trip on your feelings. So I didn't go there. I did think long and hard about it, because you've admitted that feeling ignored is a trigger for you, but I hoped there was compassion in my silence. I'm really glad you've given me this chance to explain why, though.
Thanks for talking yourself, Portia. I really hope you keep at it. imho, you have much to share.
Best,
LoH
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LoH almost gone, can’t resist this because it’s so honest
I didn't think you'd heard me, and I couldn't think of a simpler way to express what I said.
I think I get you now. I think I reacted negatively to that post, thinking you were ‘telling me off’ maybe? The last line I think (I’m remembering, not looking) from you? Think I thought: you sound annoyed at me. That was my baseline if you like ‘LoH sounds annoyed at me, what’s the best thing to say’ kind of thing. I won’t go back now if that’s okay, I must go for today. But I wanted to say I appreciate your reply and your persistence to be understood and to understand. That is so valuable to me. gone now! best to you
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Hi H& H,
Can I request a time out folks? I get the impression there's a lot of feelings running high here and maybe we could all benefit from a bit of time out?
[/color]
I'm sorry, didn't mean to step on this well-intentioned request. You and I and Portia all cross-posted. I was in the midst of pulling my reply when Portia responded to me, so I left it.
Am sending deep breaths and trickles of calm to anyone who's feeling_____(anything they don't want to). 8) 8) 8) Amazing how air-conditioned this guy looks? Pretty cool for someone who's always getting his button pushed. Oww, that was terrible. Excuse me.
Best to all,
LoH
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I feel fine actually. Quite calm, thanks LOH. You do have sort of a calming influence on peeps. :)
pen
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I agree with you, Jac.
Nobody can compel anything here, save Doc G if he asks a poster to remove something for policy reasons.
I do think it's good to remember that this is sort of an online support group (as I think of it anyway) and a set of behaviors has evolved that mostly, as I see it, includes a lot of sensitivity and effort to understand another's POV. For the great majority of the time and in the great majority of members.
So while nobody can silence or make anyone else voiceless, I think it's a good idea if someone has refused to speak to you, but talks about you, if it hurts, to say how painful that is.
I think if it were me, I would feel pain, humiliation, and ostracization. It would probably inflame wounds I still carry from childhood, when being shunned and disliked was so hurtful I can't even verbalize it.
Maybe they had good reason. Maybe I was an idiot. Maybe I did such terrible things that I should be shunned, or serve some terrible penance, and even then never know if I would be accepted into the fold. I do remember feeling out of step, and wanting to die from the hurt, as it went on nonstop until late high school.
Anyway, that's what all this can remind me of, so that's why I yearn for compassion in all directions, with the hope that we can remember that to be offended means a choice to take offense...rather than a larger view...
Damn hard though. (On my own topic...off the thread, I was just thinking about my brother coming and I glanced at my dog, and said, you're good dog, do me a favor and tear his throat out.) :shock: :shock:
So THIS is how well I've completely hahaha recovered from the Nabuse from him in my childhood. Add in the playground bullies? God, I'll be in therapy when I'm 97. And I'll be deaf, so everytime the T says, and tell me how does that make you feel.....I'll be going WHAAAAT? WHAAAAAAAAAT? like NMom the whole hour.
Oy. Hope you're not sick of me blabbing but I just don't want to stop. I could talk a fountain.
(((((((((((Jac)))))))))))
Hops
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I third the suggestion for a timeout..but will just add this :P
sometimes people don't want to talk to someone else because it's painful to them, I imagine. It's what I think, not a fact, but I can imagine this. It really has nothing to do with the other person. They can choose to internalize it, but that's their choice.
Sometimes, sigh, it's not all about the other person - actually, this is something a counselor once told me. He said 9 times out of 10, people are thinking about themselves and their needs (to be left alone in this case), they're not trying to hurt the other person.
pen
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Well, since I'm chiming, may as well add something here, too... I can relate to the desire to stop (or at least pause) communication with a person with whom I find my equilibrium disturbed. Occasions of this are fewer and farther between these days, but still, once in awhile, I can tell that overload is approaching and it's time to step away from the dialogue. It's more of a reflex than a well thought-out decision and as Pen said, it doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the other person. One of ex-N's more obnoxious traits was to refuse to allow a moment's peace, including keeping me up all hours of the night with his incessant monologue re: HIS feelings, HIS needs, etc, etc. If I'd escape into the bathroom for a bit, he'd be waiting immediately outside the door for me when I came out, and pick up right where he'd left off... never again.
Hope
-
It looks as though I can pretty much wind things up here, now.
Returning to the subject of bad faith:
I posted the locked thread on June 16, 2006, 8:00:16 a.m.
At 8:30:37 a.m. Portia posted here:
http://www.voicelessness.com/disc3/index.php?topic=2774.msg44970#msg44970
Storm,
Are you referring to the thread where I’ve just told Seeker that their behaviour is out of line? Well are you? Are you are you are you are you....hmmmmmmmmm? Come on Storm, please tell me, I wanna know! If you are, why not say so?
I don’t think I’m playing Victim, Rescuer or Persecutor in that thread. I’m calling a specific piece of behaviour as I see it. I take full responsibility for my action. Nobody else has to be involved – unless they choose to be.
We all make choices about the time we spend here and what we say. It's a free choice! :D Brilliant! You made a choice in posting your ‘Cycles of Conflict’ thread. What was your motivation? Was it a role from Karpman? :? :(
From that thread:
I'm wondering if this type of weekend conflict does indeed fall into a pattern. And I wonder why, if this is a cycle we're experiencing, we 'need' it. Do we need it? If we do, do we need it in quite this way?
Yes I “need it” :D. Are you telling me I can’t have it? :( And who exactly is the ‘we’ you’re talking about? Are you gathering a group around you Storm? :x
I am really sorry, everyone. I'll unlock it Monday, and people may castigate me here to their hearts' content at that time.
No you’re not sorry at all Storm. However, your locking a thread does not stop me starting a new thread. :o My goodness! :D
Fancy a little conflict for the weekend Madam? (barber-shop style). I’ll leave this thread open and try to quell my curiosity and not return to it…too often!
ahhh freeee willllllll is a terrible thing...................................
..... 0
0 0
0
000 0
0 0
0
0
(gone snorkelling in deep water)..................................
This is pretty nasty stuff; childish, taunting, etc. It's not funny; it's mean. [And yes, I did something similar to Sela not so long ago. Portia has quite pointedly quoted one of my lines, to rub my nose in it. I've fessed up, and when I said I was sorry, it was genuine. I haven't done it since, nor do I intend to.]
A sample good faith response from Portia would have looked more like this:
"Hey S., read your thread. Feeling a bit singled out... so first: is any of this about me? Is this something you see me doing? Wow, that hurts, but if you think I'm really like this, I can understand why you stopped talking to me, especially after that thing with Sela. I'd like a chance to prove you wrong, but I'd also like a chance to find out why you think this. Because if you're right at all, in any way, this isn't how I want to be, and it's not how I thought I was. If this isn't about me... well, I feel really silly, but I'd still like to get us talking again."
Key components: sincere desire to solve problem. Sincere desire to restore communication. Openness in place of defensiveness [and offensiveness]. Ability to own errors, etc. Sincere, period.
Meanwhile, Sela posts the following [excerpted] at 10:38:34:
http://www.voicelessness.com/disc3/index.php?PHPSESSID=beba06ac8db22028fe1833cdc6a944f9&topic=2776.msg44982#msg44982
:D
Hi there.....ya'll and good morning! Ain't it a beaut? It's sunny here and life is quite calm, cool and collected.
Hey......1........2..............3...........this is the 4th thread started to do with/sort of......the same kind of thingy. I like the number 4.
I figgered, why not start a thread for anybody who doesn't feel like getting into another discussion about conflict, who might be too tired after a long week at work to bother getting all riled up, who might have nothing useful to say (like me) about the whole scene at this time, who may just feel like staying OUT of triangles and wars and like it might be a waste of their time to get involved, because it might backfire. Also, for those who are wearing their chicken suits (how do you like mine? I love yellow!! 8)) and are afraid that by getting into another one.....things could escalate, again, and once burnt...twice..something or other? :shock: :?
Oh ya! And for anybody who wants to say that non-conflict is just as good and fun and pleasing and cute as conflict is......and who wants to write that on a bumper sticker and glue it to the back windshield of their hummer! Feel free!! Post here!! :D
Plus.......I haven't started a thread in awhile because I really seem to have to build up some kind of mental/emotional courage and examine my intentions and make sure it seems like something others will be interested in and maybe might want to talk about or at least.....might lead to something worth talking about....that may help me or someone, at least, and plus be an honest expression of something within me that needs to come out and all of that and ..........
Heck! I just threw caution to the wind and started this one anyhow. No need to reply, if you don't want to or think it's silly (it is!! :D :D Or is it?? :? :? I can't tell :?). Or........put your own deep stuff here, if you want......do the highjacky thingy and feel absolutely no, not a smidge, nor a drop, or a dram of guilt about it!!
The best rule is:
1. BE NICE!
Ofcourse, I don't make the rules and certainly have no way of enforcing them, so forget that rule, unless you feel like following it, then by all means...........
I think I'm rambling now. :roll: Am I? Ok......since I'm making up rules I have no right to make up and can't enforce (nor do I want to have that much power, come to think of it, anyhow...that's for warriors and police and moderators and bosses and stuff :arrow:).......but since I'm thinking up rules to make that can't and won't be enforced by me........how about:
2. Ramble if you want to just don't be mean and rumble!!
'Course, I can easily go on and on about rules and not getting into conflict, today, 'cause I feel like it and 'cause I'm not the one being called N or told I'm over-reacting or might be over-reacting or feeling the need to defend anyone who's been called and N or told their over-reacting or who might be over-reacting because the last time I stuck my nose in where it wasn't polite to do so......look what happened?
Silence.
Ok next rule then........
3. No going silent.
Talk. Talk respectfully. Talk honestly. Talk with sincerity. Talk with an open mind (or an empty one, like mine eh?)......but do talk. Don't go silent and stop talking and divorce all possibility of resolution. Only by talking will that possibility ever happen. Talking is good stuff. Not talking is.......
No fun at all ( :( ) It's too quiet. Although....silence is golden eh? Ok....but so is harp music. :D I love harp music.
And I like having fun ( :mrgreen:).
I do. I like so much here and so many people. I like seeing conflict resolved. I like seeing it not start, to begin with, and I like how others dooooo step in and speak their minds and try to get their points across and how sometimes........people's views change, in a good way, and things work out lovely. I like it when we treat eachother with respect.
Alrighty then......last rule (that I can't make nor enforce, mind you:)
4. Be respectful please.
Hahahahaha! I've broken all those rules myself, sometimes! ( :oops: :oops: that was embarassed laughter, by the way).
I like the number 4 and the fact that I can write 4 rules that I can't enforce and the fact that I bet someone........maybe more than a few people here.......will gettttttt what I'm ramblin' about! That is another wonderful thingy! Lot's of times.....people here get what eachother is saying.
It's not always misunderstanding or conflict. Not even that often (statistically speaking......if I had any idea about the statistics or were a person inclined to research them, which I'm not, not those particular statistics. I have other stuff to do today-----like grocery shop----and laundry---and cleaning---all the fun stuff!).
Ok .....off I go. Hope you all enjoyed this as much as I did. We might need 42 more threads that inter-relate, I'm not sure. :wink: This one would be lovely if the rules were followed.....what do you think??
:D Sela
There's a great deal of covert sniping here, but the most interesting aspect is the repeated references to silence, not being spoken to, the aggrieved tone, the implication of being wronged by the cessation of communication.
Bad faith again. Sela had not made a single good faith effort to communicate with me here since the debacle... she's spinning this situation, misrepresenting it, and milking it, all at the same time.
A good faith response from Sela would have looked something like this:
----- nothing. This didn't concern her. There was no need to make any reference to it whatsoever. ------
A good faith overture from Sela, totally separate from this issue, would have looked like this:
"Hey S., I've been thinking about that mess we got into and it really bothers me that we don't talk. I'd like to fix that. I did something rude and inappropriate and so did you, and I know you forgave me and I thought I forgave you but I guess I didn't really - I couldn't have, could I, if I was so eager to start another fight again, right away, about something else? Can't blame you for taking off after that, who knows what I would have started on you about next, right? Right. I see your point, but I don't think I'm that kind of person, I don't want to be that kind of person. I don't want this going on between us. I'd like to fix it. Can we? Is there a way to start?"
Key components: sincere desire to solve problem. Sincere desire to restore communication. Openness. Ability to own errors, etc. Sincere, period.
Sela didn't help matters much today when she posted here:
http://www.voicelessness.com/disc3/index.php?PHPSESSID=ae87055a57f47c328f782bbc0949080f&topic=2790.msg45373#msg45373
Hi Stormy,
You said you didn't want to talk with me any more and you blocked me from pm'ing you so I've tried to respect that and have not posted to you.....not even posted to any of your threads (I think? Or maybe I did? I know I'm trying not to).
However, if you're going to post about me and especially about what you've decided my intentions are/were then it almost seems like you're trying to communicate to me (not with me, mind you).
I like two sided games that allow both people in. I think it's fairer that way. One sided ones aren't fair at all. I think that kind of making statements about how you've interpreted stuff, especially about another person's motives, intentions/what's in their heart....Stormy..........is not at all fair, when you also decide that only you are allowed to speak and that you won't respond to the one(s) you're speaking about. I think complaining about being ignored and then ignoring others isn't fair either. And talking "to" them rather than "with" them.......is childish and manipulative behaviour. Sorry Storm, but that's what I think. Not to harm you. Not to make you the bad guy. Only because you're making this big stink about others being jerked around while jerking people around and because I've behaved in messed up/screwed up ways myself, lot's of times and needed to just stop.
It's just weird to see you acting so unfair. What's up Stormy? What's going on?
I'd rather discuss whatever issues peacefully with you Storm. I'm not looking for "pretexts to take offense" at you and never have been. Sorry you've decided that I am or have been.
Sela
This is a sooty pot, taking offense at the presence of carbon deposits on an adjacent kettle.
There is a double standard -- obvious when what is said here is compared with what was said above.
A good faith response would have looked like this:
"S., I saw you referring to me here. It feels weird to be talked about rather than to. It feels unfair. But guess what... I did the same thing to you on Friday, didn't I... all the time I was talking about not liking conflict, and silence, I was taking little potshots at you. So I guess I don't really have any basis for criticizing. Look - I'm tired of this, it hurts, I want us to be talking again. I want us to put this behind us. How can we get to that point?"
***********************
This isn't about my being sad or hurt or needing to 'get away' for a little while... I wish it were. But the bottom line is, I can't talk honestly with people who won't talk honestly with me, and I'm just not interested in talking dishonestly in a therapeutic setting where recovery from emotional injury is supposed to be a common objective.
There are plenty of other people here sharing the journey to recovery with whom I can make real progress... people who will confront me honestly, people who will do their level best to accept honest confrontation in return. People for whom conflict is a symptom that there is a problem - and who want to find that problem and solve it in good faith.
I'll stop with this. This poor old horse couldn't be any deader, and it's just sad to keep flogging it now. Sela's right about one thing for sure; it's definitely time for me to let this go.
I hope to God some of what I've tried to get across here... gets across.
*************************************
Life Means So Much [Chris Rice]
Every day is a journal page
Every man holds a quill and ink
And there's plenty of room for writing in
All we do and believe and think.
So will you compose a curse
Or will today bring blessing;
Fill the page with rhyming verse
Or just some random sketching?
Teach us to count the days
Teach us to make the days count
Lead us in better ways
That somehow our souls forgot
Life means so much --
Life means so much --
Life means so much.
Every day is a bank account
And time is our currency
No-one's rich, nobody's poor
We get 24 hours each...
So how are you gonna spend
Will you invest, or squander?
Try to get ahead
Or help someone who's under...
Teach us to count the days
Teach us to make the days count
Lead us in better ways
That somehow our souls forgot
Life means so much --
Life means so much --
Life means so much.
Has anybody ever lived who knew
The value of a life
And don't you think giving is all that proves
The worth of yours and mine??
Teach us to count the days
Teach us to make the days count
Lead us in better ways
That somehow our souls forgot
Life means so much!
-
From pg 4 of the "Patience" thread:
Hi Stormy:
Just wanted to say that by "no whistle was blown", I mean that you are not some big bad whistle blower, in my mind, some snitch. I understand that you did what you thought was right and you wanted to alert me.
By "there was nothing to blow about"......I mean in regards to P's intentions. She did violate by sending private information but she did so to try to help. Even so, I need to know what I say in a pm won't be forwarded on to others, so I see and appreciate your concern and effort to alert me.
Is this absolute? If I said I was going to kill myself and burn my house down.....would it be ok for P to send that info to Dr. G, for instance? Heck yessirree!! That's serious stuff. Emergency stuff.
There are no real absolutes, I think. Just basic common sense.
What I don't understand is why you're not talking to me or accepting pm's. But that's ok. I trust you have reasonable reasons.
Sela
Looks like you decided waaaaaay back then that I was insincere, dishonest, that you know what's in my heart, and I started complaining about the "silence" back then too, started trying not to upset you further, started avoiding your threads, tried to accept your right to not talk with me. But the lecture and the locking of that other thread and then running away......upset me. I complained loudly about it but I didin't talk ....about you.....or your intentions.....or define your sincerity or lack of it or make proclamations about what's in your heart. (and on edit: that original post to the "non-conflict" thread wasn't just about you, either).
I'm still trying to communicate with you. Still complaining about the silence. I see you're not reciprocating and I can't change your mind, that's for sure. If I had of made a single good faith effort to communicate with (you) here since the debacle
, I bet you'd be saying I didn't respect your right not to speak with me or some other "definition" of me.. So this is it. If you choose not to speak with me, rather to talk about me, or to/at me, then I guess that's your choice, isn't it? If you decide what I feel and want and think and intend, that's your decision.
Saying I'm acting in bad faith, spinning, milking..........
Where do you get off Storm? Seriously.
I'll stop with this.
Ofcourse you will. Slam dunk and then run for the hills. It's a pattern.
Not me. I care about your feelings. I'm not going to make up some rendition of what an attempt at resolution would sound like from your end. I'd rather hear it from you, from the Stormy I know, instead of from where ever all of this is coming from.
:( Sela
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Penelope
sometimes people don't want to talk to someone else because it's painful to them, I imagine.
He said 9 times out of 10, people are thinking about themselves and their needs (to be left alone in this case), they're not trying to hurt the other person.
I think I see your point here. I agree, sometimes I don’t want to talk and I shut up. I don’t talk. I find if I don’t talk, nobody talks back to me. Especially if I remove myself from anyone, turn the phone off, don’t open emails etc. It’s difficult for people to talk to me if I don’t make myself available. If I’m in pain, I go to bed and stay there, sometimes.
If I want to be left alone, I remove myself. I don’t invite people into my home. I don’t phone them up and then say ‘leave me alone’.
If I ring someone up and then tell them they’re hurting me by talking to me….
Certain Hope
All of what you said, especially:
If I'd escape into the bathroom for a bit, he'd be waiting immediately outside the door for me when I came out
is exactly what my mother has told me about her and stepdad. Including the sleep deprivation. This is how cult leaders brainwash their recruits. I mentioned this idea to her and she agreed! Mother neglected and failed me in many ways when I was a child, but did she suffer? Oh yes.
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Storm
It looks as though I can pretty much wind things up here, now.
I don’t understand. I don’t need to understand, but I’d like to. What do you mean, wind things up? Are you planning to go?
This is pretty nasty stuff; childish, taunting, etc. It's not funny; it's mean.
I agree it’s not nice. But I also think there are different ways to interpret my post to you, different to the words you’ve used above. Really I do. Want to know my interpretation of my post?
I was emotional at the time I wrote that. Am I allowed to behave badly sometimes? Or do I have to write in compassionate, adult, open, honest terms all the time? I hope I’m being adult now. I hope you can feel that I’m being honest and sincere now.
I can't talk honestly with people who won't talk honestly with me
Ditto. Me neither.
people who will confront me honestly, people who will do their level best to accept honest confrontation in return. People for whom conflict is a symptom that there is a problem - and who want to find that problem and solve it in good faith.
Go for it Storm. Talk to me. I’m listening. What’s the problem between you and me? I’d like to resolve it.
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Dear Storm,
Once again, I just want to say that your efforts in communicating here have not been wasted. I've appreciated your input and learned a great deal through reading your posts.
I'm not replying to take sides in a conflict, because I haven't really followed the threads with an eye to that. In fact, I doubt whether the original conflict is even the issue anymore, but rather the defining of positions in the wake of that conflict.
From my perspective, you have made the effort to state your own version of what an appropriate response from others would sound like, which is something I used to do in my head (but rarely shared it with the other people involved). I think that takes alot of courage and shows your sincerity in wanting to be known and understood, to resolve conflict. Seems to me that you have taken a sincere stand for the qualities in relationship that you value and defined your boundaries well, imo. Even when you use a multitude of words, there's a simplicity of thought that shines through to me, because I don't sense sarcasm, passive-agressive humor, or thought shuffling in your posts. Sometimes when I read here, the words seem like cards in a double deck, repeatedly being shuffled but never really getting anywhere.
And I wonder... have you been left with the feeling that it's impossible to continue from the same position in relationship you held before this conflict arose? Once trust has been broken, the rebuilding must begin on a firmer foundation, I think. Is that what your posts have been about? Testing the ground to see whether it was suitable for the pouring of fresh cement? I've had occasions where mutual forgiveness was expressed verbally but then the other's cavalier attitude would strike me as insincerity. I truly don't deal well with "cavalier" and I've long been aware that plenty of nastiness can be barely veiled beneath a guise of wit and humor.
When I see that, I figure there's an agenda underlying the message which precludes any genuine sincerity.
Anyway... just wanted you to know that I have valued your communications here and hope that you'll continue to voice your perspective to all of us who are on this same road together, learning to relate to others without causing or receiving harm.
Hope
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Know what Hope:
Sometimes when I read here, the words seem like cards in a double deck, repeatedly being shuffled but never really getting anywhere.
This statement is meant to help?
I've had occasions where mutual forgiveness was expressed verbally but then the other's cavalier attitude would strike me as insincerity. I truly don't deal well with "cavalier" and I've long been aware that plenty of nastiness can be barely veiled beneath a guise of wit and humor.
When I see that, I figure there's an agenda underlying the message which precludes any genuine sincerity.
That's all in your head.
Just for the record, my humour is sincere. I'm a dense oaf, sometimes, but I laugh at myself and the world for the sheer joy of laughing and because I know it's a heck of a lot more sincere than trying to come across as pious.
Sela
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Sela
hiya how you doing? Okay? Doesn’t sound it to me. Sounds like you’re hurt and I can see why…..you think Certain Hope is talking about you?
Certain Hope
I wondered too when I read your post. Then I read it again. And again. And yes, again. Then I thought about what your message was. And who it was addressed to!!
Then I thought: Sela’s not going to like this. True!
Okay. Fair enough. Just saying what I saw, read, felt, expected and Sela? I was about to react in exactly the same way. Same way. Taking it very personally.
What do you think? Does Certain Hope say she’s talking about you? About the board even?
I have another post for Storm here…..hang on where is it…..
But hey hang on :shock:
it's a heck of a lot more sincere than trying to come across as pious.
:shock:War Zone! Alert alert! Haha. Sorry :?. Doing my joker routine in the face of …. other people’s interactions. Pious? Oooo Sela! Haha.
Pious!
Not!
Are!
Not!
Certain Hope, can I pretend to do your part here please? I bet you wouldn’t react anything like this, but can I pretend please? For Sela? Thanks. 8)
How you doing, one and all?
Shall I post my post now…?
Haha. No. My humour is very very sincere as some of you know. When I joke it can be for serious reasons.
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Storm,
Very serious post. Might as well post it. Then see how Sela is getting on, and Certain Hope if she’s around. This is for you:
I don’t feel right about my last post to you. To me it feels cold and somewhat challenging (“you want to talk honestly? Well come on then!”).
So I was thinking, how can I do this differently?
What does Storm need from me to talk to me?
I read this again:
"Hey S., read your thread. Feeling a bit singled out... so first: is any of this about me? Is this something you see me doing? Wow, that hurts, but if you think I'm really like this, I can understand why you stopped talking to me, especially after that thing with Sela. I'd like a chance to prove you wrong, but I'd also like a chance to find out why you think this. Because if you're right at all, in any way, this isn't how I want to be, and it's not how I thought I was. If this isn't about me... well, I feel really silly, but I'd still like to get us talking again."
I guess I could have said all that. But I didn’t feel like that Storm.
You’re brighter than me I would guess. You know more than me. I’m fairly bright but when it comes to emotional understanding, no I’m not bright. Are you? (Genuine question. Intellectually bright is not empathetic. True?)
So I didn’t feel like your paragraph Storm. I felt angry. I felt targeted. I felt persecuted. I felt ‘told off’. Doesn’t matter what your intention was: this is about how I felt when I posted that childish post to you. I felt those things.
If I was able to post something like your paragraph above, I doubt I’d be here. Why would I need to be here, if I was that healthy?
So.
You might need me to be better able to listen, better able to communicate, better at everything in order for you to want to talk to me.
I can’t be those things if I’m not those things now. I cannot necessarily be what you might want me to be. So we won’t talk. I would accept that. I absolutely hate being misunderstood but hey, I have to learn not to hate it so much.
Why am I trying so hard now? I feel that I am trying very hard now. You may not think so. I think I am.
I don’t know why. It matters to me. I like to understand and be understood. If it doesn’t matter to you, or you’d rather not, that’s okay. I won’t like it, but I will accept it.
Now I feel sad. That’s how it is.
I shall see if I can raise a smile and talk a different language with someone else. Just because I talk a different language sometimes does not mean that I am not deadly serious and in earnest here.
-
I’m such a twit. I have no idea what anyone means when they say “pious”.
Totally prejudiced I am. You know what? Foot in mouth. Or both feet.
mmmhmpphmmphmp
Sela, hope you’re okay. ((((((((Sela))))))))
Certain Hope, did you mean to make Sela as mad angry as a hatter?
I don’t know what’s happening any more. I’m confused. I want tea and biscuit. So I’ll get some :arrow:
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Hi Portia,
It's good to keep hearing from you here.
I think I get you now. I think I reacted negatively to that post, thinking you were ‘telling me off’ maybe? The last line I think (I’m remembering, not looking) from you? Think I thought: you sound annoyed at me. That was my baseline if you like ‘LoH sounds annoyed at me, what’s the best thing to say’ kind of thing.
[/color]
Given that you thought I was telling you off, thank you for taking the time and considering the best thing to say and asking questions rather than telling me off in return. I really appreciate that, the fact that you asked how I felt rather than pouncing. A gentle thing.
I'm glad you get me; I wasn't annoyed, only puzzled and curious. Because I read your 1st post on F.F. & Unlocked and things you'd said previously about free will and respecting boundaries, then what you said about peace and compassion...and couldn't make it all match up. I don't mean this as a criticism, I didn't think anything negative about you based on this perception. Just thought, What she's saying and doing doesn't match, no judgment attached. Because contradiction, imho, is part of being human, me included.
Now that I think on it (and thanks for that gentle nudge), no small part of my puzzlement was projection. Personally, I take it deeply to heart if I feel like someone has set a boundary with me. Plus, I'm sensitive to the feeling of being unwelcome. So, between the two, if someone ever told me they didn't want to talk to me, I would need a whole lot of convincing from them, directly, before I ever said so much as hello again. Hope this doesn't sound glib, because I meant it, seriously. That's just who I am. Me, by definition, not being you or anyone else (AHA, note to self; remember this :shock:). So I really wanted to try to understand. And, Portia, imho, you try hard to be forthcoming here so I thought you'd respond, and hoped the questions wouldn't be taken the wrong way.
But I wanted to say I appreciate your reply and your persistence to be understood and to understand. That is so valuable to me.
[/color]
Yes, I'm driven by this, even try to understand people in the act of shouting at me. Thanks for recognizing it as curiosity. I don't feel superior to anyone here or want to analyze them, and I accept there are billions of things in the world I won't ever get, and us humans, imho, are all over the place. Still, it's important for me to try with people, because trying is what's in my bag. Seek First to Understand. I see that urge in you and value it, too...well, 'cause what would be nicer than people acting like me! (HA!)
I really, really hope I haven't said anything you find hurtful here, Portia. My word of the day is 'tenderness' and it's not necessarily my strength, but I'm trying. (see above). I see you trying, too, and I'm grateful in a big way that we've been talking here. Smiles to you.
Best,
LoH
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Hi Hope,
I know you weren't talking to me, I apologize for nosing in, but for what it's worth, just wanted to tell you how much I appreciated what read to me like a thoughtful, considered and very respectful post. imho, there's real kindness in covering all those bases, and you're brave to try in a setting where folks may be riled. It's risky business, and you inspired me.
Sometimes when I read here, the words seem like cards in a double deck, repeatedly being shuffled but never really getting anywhere.
And I wonder... have you been left with the feeling that it's impossible to continue from the same position in relationship you held before this conflict arose? Once trust has been broken, the rebuilding must begin on a firmer foundation, I think. Is that what your posts have been about? Testing the ground to see whether it was suitable for the pouring of fresh cement? I've had occasions where mutual forgiveness was expressed verbally but then the other's cavalier attitude would strike me as insincerity. I truly don't deal well with "cavalier" and I've long been aware that plenty of nastiness can be barely veiled beneath a guise of wit and humor.
When I see that, I figure there's an agenda underlying the message which precludes any genuine sincerity.
[/color]
Sorry, again, for nosing in, but this resonated with me so much I got ants in my pants. For what it's worth, I'm with you on cavalier behavior. I won't even argue with someone I see as consistently cavalier, I'm just done. I sum up this whole question around trust and sincerity as the ability to give someone the benefit of the doubt. For me, once I can't give someone the benefit of the doubt anymore, am unable to see them as sincere and/or trustworthy, that relationship will either have to be entirely redefined or end.
Anyway... just wanted you to know that I have valued your communications here and hope that you'll continue to voice your perspective to all of us who are on this same road together, learning to relate to others without causing or receiving harm.
[/color]
Yes, amen to that, you said it so well, Hope. Sounds so heartfelt and compassionate, and just want to tell you the same blessing.
Best,
LoH
PS - I really hope I haven't overstepped with you, Hope, by butting in. Not trying to solicit a response, just needed to thank you.
-
Allow me to butt in also.
I don't think CH was referring to anyone here in particular but was referring to general principles.
If I'm wrong then I'll bow out and watch from the sidelines as the fireworks recommence.
Could someone pass the popcorn?
mud
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Sela,
There will always be people whose personalities conflict. Perhaps you and I are two of those, although I had not yet gone so far as to make that judgement, at this point.
Generally, when someone's personal style rubs me the wrong way, I simply don't engage with him/her. It doesn't go any deeper than that in my mind, because I won't let it. I don't attempt to analyze the person or assign her a motivation... only maintain a healthy distance. In other words, if I'd been thinking specifically of you when I posted to Storm, I wouldn't have said anything at all, but rather made a point of staying out of it.
Being fairly new to this forum, I don't know any of the participants very well and certainly have never set out on a mission to insult anyone. Since I had labeled no particular person in my mind as an offender and I hadn't felt compelled to take any particular "side" in the matter, I expressed my own feelings and impressions to Storm without thinking of who had posted what in the past. I never considered it my place to choose sides, nor do I usually feel compelled to act as a mediator, but there are times when I relate more to one particular party in a discussion and may verbalize those feelings to them. At the moment, if I chose to react based on how I feel, I wouldn't even bother to respond here. But at the risk of giving the impression that I'm trying to come across as pious, I apologize to you, Sela, for what appears to be a wound to you that was caused by my ...insensitivity? I don't know. I don't "feel" like apologizing to someone who just insulted me, but I believe it's the right thing to do. In retrospect, I guess I should have read back through the entire mess to see exactly which poster had used humor in such a way to inspire those feelings of mine which I expressed to Storm. Then, if I still saw a validity in expressing those feelings, I could have initiated a thread on how I sometimes perceive the use of humor as an attempt to deflect attention to critical issues. But somehow I get the feeling that no matter what I say or don't say, someone will take offense because it's within their own self to do so. I am sorry that my words hurt you, Sela. It was not intentional, only careless.
Hope
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Mud and Light, thank you both. I hit post despite the warning re: 2 additional replies... which is just as well. Your words are like precious stones right now. Thanks.
Hope
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Popcorn, how could you say that about popcorn? Don't you know how I feel about popcorn, Mud! What are you implying? Never mind my dog's terror of fireworks! Go ahead, pound my good mood into the ground, do a little dance and eat popcorn and clap besides.
Mercy, if not for my enormous personal growth, boy, would I talk some serious smack and turn a hose on your little show. Popcorn!
Still, always nice to hear from you, Mud, especially when you're not talking to me and let me take the ridiculous high ground like this.
Thanks!
:D :D :D
PS- Hope, almost cross-posted with you. Thank you so much, I'm really touched by your heartfelt thanks. Your words are precious, too.
more :D :D :D
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'at's our Mud...
Good thing we know he's just a lil' ol' poodle beagle schnauzer newfoundland puppy...
:)
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No Hops... :D a mudpuppy is a salamander... little lizard like animal that lives around the pond :D also called a water dog!
This particular one seems to like popcorn! :D
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:D I know, MS!
I was just riffing on the puppy possibilities...
I know, maybe Mud's a MUTANT!!!???? :shock: :shock:
(serves you right for not offering any better knock-knock jokes, Mudster...)
Hops
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:D :D :D
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Good evening Portia. Truce? I appreciate what you said.
I'll try to understand you. I honestly don't get people who admire problems rather than wanting to solve them, which is what seems to me is going on with you a lot of the time. I'm not saying that's how it is, just that it's how it looks to me, but I will try to understand whatever is going on.
If it's true, then we're pretty fundamentally different and will just have to coexist the best we can. Sometimes that means I won't respond because there's honestly no response I can come up with. Just how it is. Nothing I can add. Not personal.
I will be more defended for awhile. I will understand if you are too.
Sela, I'm not interested in fighting with you. That's why I stopped talking in the first place. Fighting for the sake of fighting bores the crap out of me. It doesn't scare me. I think it's wasteful. I like to learn and build and solve problems. That's what I'm here for. I didn't start this, remember? When you want to talk to me in order to resolve conflict, I'm willing. If you're looking for another round, I'm not an option. That is a boundary, and I have a right to set it. I'm going to stay defended with you also. Not angry, just protected. The talk it out and forgive thing didn't work, so now I can only wait and see what you do.
Hope, you got it in one. Completely... but I have to warn you, I am capable of prolonged extended silliness.
Mud, LOH, have some popcorn, I brought CrackerJack.
Some 'good faith' apologizing from me. I am not happy that I responded to shame dumps by shaming in return. Didn't know quite what else to do except describe what I thought I was seeing, as I was seeing it. No way to do that without some sort of shaming, because what I thought I was seeing wasn't good stuff. But I didn't like that part and I don't.
If anyone has good suggestions - constructive alternatives - for how to address that, let me know. Really. I am grateful that people mostly have been able to bear with what I was saying.
Anyway. I was going to take the rest of the week off. Think I will, at least from this thread. I've been here too much lately, and this has been too much with me.
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Storm, thank you ... just had a hunch. Welcome back >>> enjoy your break>>> I hope you don't stay quiet for too long :) It's alot, but well worth the effort.
Hope
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Conflict is very draining.
Try to have a good week storm. I really did appreciate your posts. It took courage and was thoughtful. If it didn't come out perfect, oh well. I've rarely seen perfection here or anywhere humans are involved.
P.B.
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LoH
I have a long reply to you and I’ve decided to put it on another thread. It’s about my ‘stuff’ so I won’t put it here.
Hi Storm,
thanks for replying. Truce, yes, I think so. I don’t understand what you mean by (me) admiring problems rather than wanting to solve them. I just don’t understand your point of view.
I understand that you see me doing this, admiring problems, and that’s okay, I accept that is how you see me, a lot of the time. Because you do perceive me like this, I think we are indeed fundamentally different. I will do my best to coexist with you; now that I know how you perceive me (which is a huge help, thank you), I think this won’t be difficult for me.
I’ll be content if you do respond to me, or you don’t. Now I understand how you see me, any confusion I had is gone.
I don’t feel shamed Storm and I hope you don’t.
I don’t think you need to be “more defended” Storm. I have nothing to ‘attack’ you about. I have nothing left to say and that must be a first! :) Slight attempt at humour because I feel kind of sad but that’s just me and it’s okay. Thanks for clearing all this mess up Storm. I understand and that is much appreciated. I shall reflect on my actions, reactions, what I think I’ve learned and how to not get myself into this sort of pickle again. P
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Hey Portia:
By "pious" I was thinking mostly of the meaning of the word that I have in my head, which is something like:
virtuous and uppity.
I looked it up, after reading your post and there are a couple definitions that are close to what I was thinking:
"-Professing or exhibiting a strict, traditional sense of virtue and morality; high-minded.
- Commendable"
I was referring to myself meaning I'd rather come across as a kidder than as virtuous and
uppity (because I don't believe I am virtuous or commendable and I try not to be uppity).
I don't think I'm pious and I'd rather not come across as if I am but sometimes I might
because I can be a goof).
Thanks for the hug P. Yep. I was feeling mad there.
Sela
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Hops:
Hope you're not sick of me blabbing but I just don't want to stop. I could talk a fountain.
Nope. Is that possible? It's like music to my ears. Pour forth at will.
((((((((Hoppy)))))))
:D Sela
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Hiya Certain Hope:
I took this very personally (in my head I thought you were referring to me :roll:):
I've had occasions where mutual forgiveness was expressed verbally but then the other's cavalier attitude would strike me as insincerity. I truly don't deal well with "cavalier" and I've long been aware that plenty of nastiness can be barely veiled beneath a guise of wit and humor.
When I see that, I figure there's an agenda underlying the message which precludes any genuine sincerity.
Since Stormy and I had expressed mutual forgiveness, over on the "patience" thread, and I tend to joke around a lot and make no secret about it, I thought you meant I was the one with the cavalier attitude and you weren't just thinking it but saying it, which set me right off, since you don't know me and we haven't even had an interaction before now (which by the way, welcome to the board. I haven't had much of a chance to read your posts yet but I hope to and I hope you will find any support you might need here and anything else good that will help).
Then, me thinking you were calling me calalier felt like another diagnosis. Like being diagnosed a liar or insincere. Those might not be in medical books but they feel like some sick, disease or wicked, untreatable illness to me. And I try really hard not to lie and I know I'm sincere, so I really freaked out thinking this.
Also the words: "veiled beneath a guise" .......oooooo that sounds so nasty and Nish and accusatory and like such a rotten, mean thing to decide without knowing a person......can you see where my brain took me?
Also "there's an agenda" and we all know whoooooooooooooooooo we use that word so frequently ...to describe......so it sure made me think you were slyly trying to insinuate that I am an N....and haven't we already been down that road, elsewhere recently, and haven't we learned yet that it's not appropriate for anyone here to DIAGNOSE like that...??
or is it even.....sllightly respectful, for that matter, and/or helpful? And I was thinking too, why would you, who I haven't even spoken to here yet, go about insulting me and diagnosing me ......jumping to conclusions about me, someone you don't know and haven't spoken to?.......if you weren't .....taking sides......which led me to believe you were not being honest about that either (you were lying--in my head-- :shock: :shock: :x).
And I have an aversion for lies.
But.........you have taken the time to apologize here to me, even though you didn't feel like it and only did so because you think it's the right thing to do. It feels weird to read that but it does sound honest, and I appreciate that. I have no reason not to believe you. I'm doing my very best here to be reasonable and to reject the idea that you were speaking about me at all. It's very possibly and quite likely that I've misunderstood what you were saying and what you meant, which I've done before and will likely do again sometime. So I forgive you entirely and I do also apologise for my own run away thinking and conclusion jumping and misunderstanding.
You wrote: There will always be people whose personalities conflict. Perhaps you and I are two of those, although I had not yet gone so far as to make that judgement, at this point.
I guess we'll have to wait and see eh CH? I'm not all evil or swimming in conflict or as mucked up as a my rain boots, I don't think. You seem like someone not so hard to get along with and you took the time to post some of your stuff to me and it was humble of you to say you were "careless" and to say you're sorry, when you didn't really want to, so I give you double points and a big check mark. You're ok in my book. I trust your intentions and thankyou for all of that.
I wasn't referring to you when I used the word pious, I was referring to myself. Your statement....
But at the risk of giving the impression that I'm trying to come across as pious
made me wonder if maybe you thought I was referring to you? Haha! If so!! Welcome to the
"she must mean me" :shock:
club! Is this where you feel I insulted you? Or was it that I asked if your comment was supposed to be helping?
Given the way I was thinking at the time, I hope you will understand that I was feeling insulted and attacked and misjudged and treated unfairly myself. I was trying to communicate with Stormy, and I felt you weren't encouraging that to happen .....and so I double appologise for returning the same treatment to you, when I would have been better to wait until I was calmer and possibly clearer headed (or something near that--which can happen sometimes 8)). I'm sorry I insulted you. I didn't mean to either. I really mean that.
But somehow I get the feeling that no matter what I say or don't say, someone will take offense
because it's within their own self to do so.
I'm not taking offense to your words. I appreciate all your effort. Thanks CH.
:D Sela
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HeyHo Mud:
Thanks for butting in. The pic of you sitting on a stump, near your mudpuddle, with your legs crossed, munching on popcorn popped into my head and gave me a good giggle, which I dearly needed, and helped
to bring me to my senses too.
(((((thanks Muddy)))))
:D Sela
PS: You too LOH:
how could you say that about popcorn?
:D :lol: :D :lol:
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Hi Stormy:
I hope you will read this hearing a calm, gentle, tone that is loaded with caring and concern:
I'm glad you're speaking to me. I don't want to fight with you either.
I wrote a peace offering to you over on the "non-conflict" thread the other day. Maybe you didn't see it? Did you?
I care about your feelings.
That's the third time I've said that (twice here and once over on the "non-conflict" thread).
Did you notice those words? I do care about your feelings Stormy.
Do you believe me? I do. I've been trying to tell you that. I've been hoping you would share your feelings, that's why I said I would rather "hear it from you" and didn't try to put words here for you.
I don't want to fight. I want to understand. Telling me that you stopped talking to me because I want to fight is not helpful to me. First of all, it's not true because I don't want to fight and never have wanted to fight with you and second of all......I brought that last blurb from the "patience" thread to try to help you see the way I think I understand things. If I'm wrong, then please correct me or explain where I'm wrong.
And please stop saying that I'm dishonest, insincere, not acting in good faith, etc, and all other derogatory statements about me. Please stop saying what I think and feel and want and intend and instead, tell me what you think and feel and want and intend. Ok?
Unless ofcourse, you don't give a fig about my feelings (which I don't think is true....I think you do...well....
maybe not a fig.....maybe a grape...today....maybe I'll be able to work my way up to a fig eh? :)).
I'm not out to hurt you Stormy or cause you grief. But I can't make you believe me or trust me.
I still trust you (believe it or not).
I trust that you do want to resolve this, otherwise, I think you would not have spoken to me, like you said you weren't going to, so thanks for changing your mind about that.
I still trust that you had my best interests in heart when you posted about my trust being violated.
I still trust that you are the same Stormy I know and care about except that you're upset right now and
not feeling safe with me (probably because of some of the things I've said and I repeat I'm sorry for anything
and everything I've said that has hurt you, even in this post because it's not my intention and I don't want to
hurt you or upset you. That's not what I want at all.)
I don't know what else to say. I'm afraid of saying the wrong thing. I can't seem to get it right lately anyhow
but I want you to know I'm trying.
Sela
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Hi Sela
Just in from work and so tired my eyes are crossing. Checked in before leaving and saw your post, didn't want to leave you hanging. Can't stay long, going directly to bed.
Wanted to say I appreciate everything you have said here. It helps a great deal.
I will be guarded for awhile because trust for me is not part of forgiveness but of reconciliation.. forgiveness you have, Portia does too. I don't want to hurt you nor do I want to see you hurt.
It's because I also don't want to see myself hurt that trust will return over time. This is not an unhealthy or unreasonable approach to take - you can trust me on that ;-).
It's OK, I am OK, if you are likewise a bit guarded with me. I used the word defended before - bad choice, guarded is what I meant. It would be reasonable. This is a new country, it looks different, I am not the same, I don't expect anyone else to be quite the same either. Time and experiences have that effect. It's OK.
What I think we do from here on out is just interact, and see how it works. That's where the questions get answered. What I say now won't mean diddly, what you should pay attention to is what I do, how I respond in situations, what my priorities are when I respond... likewise that's where I will be hearing your voice most clearly.
Going to go before my head lands on the keyboard, just wiped out from work, nothing to do with anything here.
Peace ---
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Hiya Storm:
Thanks for getting back to me so quick. Sounds like you've had an exhausting day. Hope you had a nice hot bath, a large cool drink, and a good cuddle with one of your pets, in front of the tv (or other similar and equally relaxing/rejuvinating stuff).
I'm glad what I said helps and I appreciate you being honest about feeling guarded for awhile. Ya gotta do what ya gotta do to feel safe Storm, so I do understand what you mean.
Thanks for forgiving too. I appreciate that very much.
What I say now won't mean diddly,
What you say means something to me Storm. That's why I can take it to heart. I value what you say very much.
I'm glad you want to interact. I'm happy about that. :D :D And about the "peace" Stormy.
Thanks for the peace! 8) I like it so much better and I bet you do too?
Ok....hope you're having a lovely day (especially less tiring). (((((Stormy)))))
:D Sela