Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: adrift on June 21, 2006, 05:09:22 PM
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Hi everyone,
I borrowed the title for this thread from another thread (the title of which has already left me :roll:, but I wanted to speak to this a minute. Someone said, Jac I think, that sexualizing children can be done without touching and that it's very damaging. My parents sent very strange signals to me somewhere around my 6th or 7th grade year. I don't remember how the "signals" were sent nor am I sure about why, but I remember being so very embarrassed at the development of my body, especially around my father, and I remember praying, REALLY PRAYING, that my body wouldn't develop. I guess I wanted to be asexual. I felt so dirty in becoming a woman. My dad had never been close to me but when I began to develop he seemed to become really annoyed with me---and it definitely wasn't o.k. that I was a female. My mom and I had gotten along (gosh, it's hard to remember her and I ever getting along, but when I think really hard, it's true, we did) pretty good until I turned about 15 or 16 and all of a sudden she changed. She became very distrustful of me and cold and suspicious. It seemed like her interest in me completely left and I was left to be my only friend and ally. It's amazing, when you think of it, how parents can convey all of that without saying many words. I remember once when a friend walked in our back door and asked where I was (I could hear this from my bedroom) and my dad said in a very disgusted voice, "She's in her room primping"----his tone stunned me. I remember it clearly to this day, where I was sitting in my room, the sights, the sounds, it's all frozen in time----I guess he had passed my bedroom early and had seen me putting on make-up (minimal amount, I assure you).
Mom used to tell me, when no one was around, that I was supposed to have been a boy. How deeply this ran through my dad I"m not sure. She said he was disappointed when I was born, that I was a girl. Maybe until puberty, he could "pretend" I was a boy. I used to have to help him cut grass, haul fire wood, help projects, etc,,,, not that girls can't do that but I was raised to be a boy kinda. When I turned 15 my mom did fix me up a girly bedroom as a surprise---so that was a mixed signal.
Maybe my mom became distant from me when I matured because (as I've found out all these years later) she was sexually active at a young age and ended up pregnant and having to put up a child for adoption when she was 16 (this was way back in 1949)---so maybe my age brought back bad memories for her??? Or she thought I'd be like her???
I don't know, but I do know that the things they said and did and the signals they sent made me feel very uncomfortable in my female skin for most of my life. I remember a few years ago my oldest child saying, "Mom, why do you dress so much like a guy" and it made me mad but she was right. I never dressed femininely. Thank goodness that has changed and I let myself enjoy being a female now.
:)
Just my .02. Y'all feel free to jump in.
Adrift
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Hi Adrift,
Just wanted to say that I'm sorry you had this type of... negating ( ?) experience as a teen. Mixed signals are always troubling and I can only imagine the confusion and doubt you must have suffered. I thought that if I started typing here, the words would flow, but... There was some sexual abuse/ molestation in my family (involving my children) years ago, so this is a difficult area for me to discuss. I guess I have no words, but I felt bad that you hadn't received any responses yet. And I'm glad that you're content and enjoying who you are now :)
Hope
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Oh, CH, how terrible for you. I can imagine that is one of the most awful things a parent can suffer.
Adrift,
I think I have posted about this before, but I had the same thing in my house. My mom allowed or even encouraged me to dress sexily, but then was convinced I was sexual in EVERYTHING I did, even though there was no way for me to be doing anything... We lived way out of town, I had no car and basically no friends. I can't even remember why, but one time she started screaming, "I don't care if you have sex with every man in town. " I was maybe 13... had probably never been kissed. I wanted to go to a dance with a black boy and she said I was, "A slut who had no respect for my body." Once I got an acid burn on my chin and neck from a lime I tasted out of her drink and I heard her asking my dad if he thought it was a hickey (I was in like 6th grade, and already so mortified I didn't leave the house. It was very disfiguring). He was really pissed at ehr about that. Tampons were a big deal. I guess they equated to sex somehow. When I did finally have a serious boyfriend, she ran me off to Planned Parenthood to get on the pill. Then, when I was depressed in college, she "had a talk with me" assumiong I was pregnant. Idiot. I would have killed myself before ever admitting I was pregnant, had I ever been.
At any rate, I grew up feeling nasty, and bad and dirty. My sister was not treated that way and has a healthy attitude towards sex.
It still pisses me off.
Love, Beth
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Thanks CH for responding. I'm sorry for what you and your kids went through.
Beth, wonder why your mom singled you out for that type of attention? Sorry you had to go through that.
I try not to be a crazy mom, certainly would have helped to have had a normal role model.
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Ain't that the truth??
:?
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Adrift, I'm so sorry...I did write you a response before and somehow didn't get it posted.
I think you are very perceptive about your mother and it's pretty amazing to me that you
can even think it through...I'm glad too that you've started to take pleasure in your
femininity. I am so sorry that they came from some scared Victorian space and projected
their sexual shame and fear into you.
I can relate in a minor way (my parents were not mean to me about it but the atmosphere
was utterly repressed and my mother silently communicated intense fear and weirdness).
Only time it really hurt was once when I saw a photo of a family friend's kid grown up
when I was about to go to England, and made some appreciative comment about how
handsome he was, and my (otherwise dear and kind) Dad suddenly said "You keep
your hands off him if you go over there!") I was so shocked and hurt, and remember
that moment the way you remember your Dad's voice when he said "primping."
I am sorry so much was laid on you and I think it's a huge issue for so many people
in this generation...the collision between past years' propriety and the social explosions
of the 60s and 70s...and the Britney role models today. Throw in some Nism and deep
emotional troubles and I don't know how we even reproduce!
Glad you started this thread because I think there could be so much learning here.
Thank you, Adrift.
Hops
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hello all,
tough subject. you're all brave.
Sex was a very hot topic in our house, and I think the fact that N Mom talked about it so much precluded many of us from doing it until later than our friends anyway. My Mom talked about sex very inappropriately, for example, in front of dinner guests she'd just say something weird.
The second time she met my brother's wife, I remember we were having dinner and she said something about how homosexuals must have sex and everyone just felt embarrassed, I imagine. Not something you mention casually at dinner - especially when there's a new person there.
I can remember countless more situations.
Funny thing is, I think I have a pretty healthy attitude about sex, I've never felt bad about it. My two younger sisters, I've worried about. This could be my imagination, but based on a lot of what they've said to me I sometimes wonder if one of them isn't frigid and the other has never really seemed that interested in sex. I'm just guessing it had something to do with my mother shaming them, but I don't really know. They're both married and have children now, but are very uncomfortable about the topic. I only know this because I have a sister-in-law that likes to talk about sex a lot (I don't know if she's just immature, or it fascinates her or what) - and my sisters get PO'd at her when she brings it up and say things like "OH GOD, I DON'T WANT TO THINK ABOUT THAT." I don't know, maybe it is sort of a weird subject, even for sisters to discuss?
Maybe my sister-in-law is an N, who knows. The N's I know have all loved to talk about sex.
Also, there was a lot of preoccupation with vanity and beauty in our house growing up - all sort of sexually undertoned.
penelope bean
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Hmmmm, I think I have some N traits and some BPD traits---which is maybe why I enjoy talking about sex :shock: My parents were so repressed in speaking about EVERYTHING, that I probably go too much the other way. Now, it's not like I talke about sex to everyone or anyone or all the time, but it is on my mind a lot, maybe more than most women???
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Hi Adrift,
It's on my mind a lot, too. Maybe it is the being middle-aged thing.
My family was very, very repressed about sex. I did get the fourth grade talk. But my sister didn't even get that. So, I had to tell her the facts of life, as I understood them, when she asked me about it. I have often thought that the repression was quite harmful. We really didn't talk freely about anything much of the time. Every topic was a loaded one at my house.
I often thought that maybe I wouldn't have gotten pregnant at 18 if I'd had healthy attitudes about sex and love. I was starved for love and affection. My parents didn't make a habit of hugging, holding, comforting, lap-sitting or anything along those lines. Nudity was embarrassing. Underwear was embarrassing!!! I was certainly very curious about sex, though. I don't know if they thought it was the right thing to do, being so prudish, or if they were just too uncomfortable talking about it with children or anybody. Maybe it was both. I suppose they were also raised in a repressed way. But how I wish there could have been some affection. My husband, who was my first and only boyfriend, taught me how to say "I love you" comfortably. We have always been affectionate. That felt right from the beginning with him. So, for me, my upbringing was somewhat unnatural. And I think that had an effect.
Adrift, I don't think you have to compare yourself unfavorably with other women. I think lots of us think about sex a lot at this stage of the game.
Sexualization of children. I have read somewhere that children are sexual beings. Adults are the ones who can warp something that should be natural and slow.
Pennyplant
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i forgot to mention that I don't mind talking about sex (to my sister-in-law), it's just sort of natural. I mean, come on - everybody has a sexual side. But my N Mom was just all about talking about it inappropriately. She just never censored herself and a lot of what she said was delivered for shock value, I think.
bleh :P
So I think it's an OK thing to discuss with close friends, if you like. But not at the dinner table with small kids. That was the weird thing. There was an N-lady at work at my last job and she used to ask me about my sex life in ear-shot of all the middle aged (horny) engineers I worked with. Really inappropriate. She used to imply loudly that because I was single I must be having sex with the other single guy we worked with. It was rude.
pb
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Yes, it does seem true that mid-life brings out the sexuality more, supposedly because we're more comfortable with ourselves and "know what we're doing" and etc.... I think being raised to be more like a boy, an asexual boy I guess, and the fact that my first close friend was my boyfriend at age 16 who had a terrible overload of testosterone, actually made me look at sex more in a guy type of way. I don't have any homosexual tendencies or desires, but I see the sexual side to jokes, life, etc... much in the same way a guy would. IOW, I see sexual innuendos probablay in places they don't even exist. And I don't get offended like other females do. It just doesn't register with me to be offended at an off color joke and if I do act offended or embarrassed it's because I know I"m supposed to act that way to be proper. And I like myself best when I'm in good shape and guys stare at me and flirt with me. Guess that's being N, wanting/enjoying that attention. My parents weren't affectionate with me or with each other, well maybe with each other on random occassions but I could count on Mom to immediately get irritated about something as soon as she and Dad seemed happy together. Neither of my parents could enjoy life, they enjoyed being miserable.
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adrift,
I am a lot the same way too. I only hung out with guys in HS and college. They were cooler, more fun, saucier and grosser. I liked being like that (and still do). Someone else here mentioned being a "serial monogamist" - that perfectly describes what I was. And boy did I go for it when I was hot and heavy with someone (also like a guy). There wasn't any coquettishness about me. It's funny, I am in my 30s (late... ouch) now and I am not as excited as I once was. I think that is due to being far away from what I want body-wise. My two years of drinking gave me a "Body by Bud" that has been hard to get back into shape, and I am not exactly tearing over to the gym every day... which also sucks because I LOVE working out when I get going with it. I used to work out in HS and my mother always harped about how unattractive it was for women to work out. She thinks it's better to starve yourself and be a rail. God, why couldn't I appreciate myself and what I enjoyed before now?????
So, guys, I have 7 months before hubby gets back. Maybe I can get my arse back to the gym and have him come home to a tiger :lol:
Thanks for the insight and helping me ferret out yet another aspect of myself.
Beth
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Considering the N men I've known: I think it might be N to think you're the greatest lover ever, and you know what all women want? (Can't remember how many times I had to point out to me exN b/f that just because his last girlfriend liked something, didn't mean I did). hello?
heh
I should be careful with this one though, that might just be a typical guy trait.
But to just be obsessed with sex? That's probably just hormones. I think it's the way you talk about sex that would determine whether it's Nish or not. My N father thought he was the greatest thing since - you know what - that all women lusted after him (and I think I mentioned before that he used to kiss me inappropriately on the lips sometimes and I hated it! BTW, he'd never admit this, I don't think. I bet he'd just say: "that's how I kiss my daughters." And be offended that I asked. Whatever. With soft puckered lips? bleh!)
OK, here's a funny story. When my dad was in his mid 30's, his head had grown so large (he taught at a university since graduating college himself, so of course any girls in his class were swooning over him) that he thought he should go pose for Playgirl. Well, he did. He went for an interview thingee or whatever (don't ask me the details, I was so young I don't remember how this came about or I didn't know) - anyway, a couple weeks after his "interview" he gets back a form letter from Playgirl that my N Mom thought was just hilarious. I got to read it too, it said, "Dear Mr. ______ (his name was hand written into the blank). After posing for our panelists, we have determined that on a scale of 1 to 10, 10 being the highest, you rank a -2 on our scale..."
ha ha ha ha ha! (that must have been a horrible blow to his ego). I can't remember exactly how he reacted, but my Mom had a ball with it for several weeks.
pb
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Oh my. That story is too funny. I shouldn't laugh... it's also pathetic.
Kissing on the lips like that is ooogy. Yuck. Definitely not proper. And, yes, he would probably blow it off. (Yuck yuck).
Glad you didn't have to see your dad in PlayGirl :lol:
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adrift and anyone else who has some suggestions:
How would you help a lady who lived a "manly" life because of things she was told as a child "you were sposed to be a boy," etc. This person I know has dressed like a man, taken on man's employment, suppressed her emotions, etc. Now, she has asked me to help her be a woman. Any suggestions?
~RM
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Really Me, Laura
All I can think of is questions…
Why does she want to be a woman? (social pressure, feeling wrong in herself?) Is being a woman a cloaked desire simply to be herself - i.e. whole person - or is it a particular gender issue?
What does she see herself like as the woman she might want to be? (different job, hobbies, activities?)
Which women does she think she could be like (and which ones definitely not like), what are her images?
Has/does she have (sexual) relationships? What’s her attitude to sex?
And a load of other questions I could think of! But seriously, what a task. How do you intend to help her?
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adrift,
I could really relate to what you said about being more "guy-like" in your attitude toward sexual innuendo, jokes and maybe to sex in general. I, too, enjoy talking about it, really enjoy doing it, and now that I am in my mid-50's, feel free to experience both more than ever before. I certainly wouldn't do that inappropriately, but with my b/f or certain g/f's, we do enjoy discussing it.
I was molested at age 9 and date-raped at 16--I never told my parents about either experience. I don't know how much that has to do with it. Sex was never discussed in my household and I never saw my father in anything but boxer shorts. Touching never happened in my home, so I know I sought that outside the home as a teenager and young adult and probably why I married so young the first time.
If there are any psychologists lurking here, I'm sure this is great fodder.
Brigid
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If I can stay on course, finish this divorce I will get myself back.
Keep that as your only focus. You are well on your way, Pavelle.
And to answer your questions:
Who exploits their daughter? their wife? Who entertains people with their pre-teen/teen child for business/attention even if it puts them in harms way? Who makes the kid responsible for the rest of their lives they feel like an object?
People of the Lie. (M.Scott Peck's book). That's who. (the book is about narcissism as evil).
((((((((((((Pavelle))))))))))))))): do you know you are recovering at breakneck speed? Probably doesn't feel like it, but you are. Steady as she goes....
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Pavelle,
YOU CAN do this.
You have the intelligence to see what has happened to you.
You have the imagination...you really do....to yearn after a different kind of life, a recovered self.
And you have the will to sit down and write a honest, completely unsparing account of the reality of what has happened to you.
You already have what you need to turn away. You are so much stronger than you assume.
Just turn away and keeeeeeep walking.
I agree with Mum...you have already begun your healing.
(Wounds ache while they are healing, like cuts itch. It's okay.
Think about just "tolerating" this unfamiliar kind of discomfort while continuing to walk away.
You have tolerated so much already. This is just...different.
Now you just need to begin to tolerate the idea that you deserve a healthy, happy life.
That's really the only basic decision you need.
You will gradually grow more attached to this idea than you ever were to the horrible past and the devaluing, degrading men (starting with your father).
(((((Pavelle)))))
Hopalong
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Pavelle,
I love the story of your first boyfriend/first husband. Too bad you couldn't have met at a saner, happier, less turbulent time of your life. How wonderful that you two can work together to take care of your children!!
I won't go into it... but you reminded me too of something my parents did that was putting me in a very sexual situation. Nice to be seen as an object, eh????
It is nice to see that your wheels are turning and you are getting stronger. Keep working through this all and soon you will be able to toss it away with the garbage, move on and then use it to make future, better choices.
Love, Beth