Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: pavelle on June 21, 2006, 07:43:00 PM
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Hello to all out there.
I have been reading for quite some time and found this group filled with such balanced souls and opinions, truly refreshing for me at this juncture. I'm pretty lonely right now and sad about my life, though also knowing that I need to keep staying on course and go the distance with divorcing my N husband-for both our sakes. This is difficult because my decision has caused some pretty severe injury to him as I'm a main source of NS for him, if not the only adult source at this juncture and he is pretty discombobulated and nutty at this time and seemingly desperate and intensely needy, so he is "trying" very hard to avoid my divorcing him and acting very childlike and sad. He is also living with his N mother and broken father and pretty isolated other than his work, which is, frighteningly, as a therapist to troubled teenage boys, whom he spends most of his time flattering to extract Ns from and is pretty much a "peer" to/with, so they like him. He lives a life of a 17 yr old basically right now, its rather frightening. He spends money on gadgets which he shows them, plays the same videogames, is late on his paperwork and has a pretty shallow ability and grasp of the healing process or even good DSM diagnostic capacity. As of yet, his supervisor (he has yet to get his license since he just got his MA) seems to not have caught onto his serious limitations, though he has already borrowed cash advances and other poor boundary issues, but is flying along with his flattery, excuses and charm, she is also a bit, well greedy and he is a good attractor of clientele, presents well etc.
I deal with a great deal of guilt about all this. I too was charmed into many things, I have a good background in psychology, though no formal degree. I wrote many of his grad school papers (is this classic or what?) supported him financially through his grad work and basically made the big mistake that now has credentials. In return, he married me, though to be honest I wasn't that desperate for marriage, having been married before and not really needing to be married to validate me. I think I just went nuts, actually I don't think I went nuts, I think now I was nuts. Like all the oxygen was removed from part of my brain and still hasn't all returned properly. Thing is, I know he believes this is all "normal" like it is ok to have your gf write your papers, or your client evals or whatever, he focused always on the outcome of everything, which should have sent huge warning signs to me, but I was pretty blinded, in a suspension of belief of my instincts always, which is just bizarre as I am no stranger to Narcissisism, not one bit...but that is also the problem, or is the problem too. I am totally adapted to it.
My father is a classic N,diagnosed as one long ago in the 70's, my mother is strongly a potential one as well, she would never dare let us in on a diagnosis, though would tout my fathers like a victory march. My sister and I used to joke that our parents divorce had a custody battle about who would take the children, not who wanted them. "not my weekend" was pretty standard fare for them. My father is a successful Art Director, my mother a private practice psychotherapist herself. Dealing with self centred folk is pretty much standard fare for my life, or not dealing. My parents are a management deal, not a nurturing one. I'm the "bad kid" my sister is the "successful kid", I'm the "pretty thin one" she is the "fat one", I'm the "slut" (got pregnant and married young then divorced), she's the "sensible one" oh the list goes on and on. I've been in therapy and lived away from my parents for 25 yrs now with varied levels of contact, depending upon the craziness of both myself and them (and the treatment I'm receiving). I've watched both my parents unravell their lives and relationships, go to heights of success and kill it and have drama and then some. My mom likes interpersonal family and friend drama and keeps it smaller, but cannot have a relationship. My dad likes big schemes and money craziness, big travel and then a big crash and mess with lawyers and bankruptcy and phoenix from ashes acts. He finally found a nice source of Ns that he seems to be able to stay with and treats her reasonably well as he has gotten old, seemingly since she has no kids or life besides him and seems to have little "neediness" as a person, rather a self contained unit of a woman, which I guess works, so god bless him, plus she seems to have gotten him to turn over all finances to her, which hey is about all that she had for a need...where am I going it's all such a weird life I lead.
So in this long opus of a post is me, really lonely right now. I'm sad and angry at myself, like I cannot believe I did this thing with all this background. I fell like a tanker for this man. Emeshed right into some wacko land of my childhood into all the attention and flattery without a damn piece of self protection and insight from my lifetime. Didn't see a thing, just acted like a big robot falling into pattern of desperation to please, and I'm strong..really strong. I'm needy too, and compassionate. So to get out of this I had to make sure he was ok, or at least in some sort of structure that I could let go and feel some sort of things were somewhat in place to undo what had been done. I started to fight him, which really made me suffer a great deal, because I had to prove to myself that he really was what I thought he might be, which he was, without empathy, but just because he doesn't have that ability. I know he is in a good place, he finally has a psychiatrist, a good one and he goes. His learning curve is very small, miniscule. He was able to sustain with the Dr. even when I filed for Divorce and continue, we had a brief re connection recently and it seems the Dr knows what is up, this heartens me, plus he is getting good support there, encouragement there..so he may stay-it's all he has. It's hard for me now. I feel dreadfully drained and grown up, I am grown up, I'm 40, finalncially poor again, I have a small daughter (not his) and depressed. I luckily have some friends, a good therapist, but god life is just so intense and weird and this whole thing has been so isolating. I have been through so much, one doesn't want to burden too many with it all, people just look at you like you have been just a freakshow if you really let them know the levels of exploiting that one went down to. There is all this shame.
I guess it is a bit too long..so enough.
Thanks,
Pavelle
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Welcome and than you for sharing your story!!!
I sound like a broken record sometimes, but now is a great time to put your focus on your daughter who needs you! Move on and make her your priority.
Good came come from shame... As long as you remember what happened and decide to make a difference now. You sound like a smart and good person. I truly believe that in caring for your daughter and making her into a strong and healthy individual, you can make a difference that goes beyond what has happened so far.
Beth
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Welcome to the board, Pavelle.
I don't think there's any shame deeper than that which N pours out onto his targets. I second Beth's suggestion to focus on building a life now for your child and yourself, looking forward and not back.
Hope
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Hey Pavelle, and welcome. I'm new here too. From your post you obviously have a very good "knowledge" grasp of the situation which is good. Don't be so hard on yourself. You're human. You're trying to fix things and that is good. You're moving forward. Don't feel so responsible for your soon to be ex. He's grown and has to learn to walk on his own two feet.
Adrift
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His own Neanderthal feet, that is :lol:
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one doesn't want to burden too many with it all
Lay it down here, Pavelle, just lay it down.
Tell all you want to tell, take all the time you need, and you will find
arms lifting you up when you are low, hearts hearing your hurting,
and many people who will not judge you as roughly as you are
judging yourself.
I sometimes think of the board as kind school. I'm off to kind school.
And don't beat yourself up for having had the instinct to survive and
grow, which you've discovered, can include some detours into old
familiar stuff you've adapted to.
Now, and with support here...you can start to look at yourself with
more compassion, then start to LIKE looking at yourself with more
compassion, then start to LIVE looking at yourself with mre compassion.
I think that's the curriculum. Glad you're here, you have a load to lay down,
and so much wisdom of your own. It's eased my loneliness so much, I
am blown away by this healing space. These healing people.
WELCOME!
Hopalong
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Hi Pavelle, The kindness ,wisdom and real solutions from these most hurtful troubles of our souls are to be found right here .I am grateful to this website and all the members also the wit and humor is sublime.
Love and Light
MoonLight :D WELCOME
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Everyone has had some really great feedback. Hopalong pretty much summed up what I couldn't in what I have been seeking, or have sought to find, hoped to find here:
I sometimes think of the board as kind school. I'm off to kind school.
I really like this perspective and the below I'm working on trying to digest past the logical "well of course I shouldn't beat myself up" to the heartfelt, emotional acceptance piece, which is harder for me to authenticate, believe.
And don't beat yourself up for having had the instinct to survive and
grow, which you've discovered, can include some detours into old
familiar stuff you've adapted to.
Which is why I'm here, I suppose, to find the support in this movement towards acceptance, learn how to accelerate the process or bear the waiting or pain of not knowing ..if that makes sense- a shoulder to share to feel less isolated?
Now, and with support here...you can start to look at yourself with
more compassion, then start to LIKE looking at yourself with more
compassion, then start to LIVE looking at yourself with mre compassion.
I think that's the curriculum. Glad you're here, you have a load to lay down,
and so much wisdom of your own. It's eased my loneliness so much, I
am blown away by this healing space. These healing people.
WELCOME!
Hopalong
Thanks to all of you
Pavelle
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Welcome Pavelle, just read your intro.
shame, guilt, seeing 'freakshow' in others' eyes - yes, me too. Beating myself up for knowing better and not knowing better; self doubt and all that re-cycling (no, not the empty bottles in the boxes, recycling through shock, anger, denial....etc).
Welcome, you're in no way alone and self-acceptance is what I want too. Whatever is, it is and it always changes!
You've obviously got a big conscience, helping your ex to some situation you think he can function in (but he'll function anyway right? one way or another). Course it's sad and messy and horrible.
How are you looking after you these days? take care and bye for now, Portia
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Welcome, Pavelle, to a very big club. I think your heartfelt )and not at all too long, considering) post resonates with most of us.
Of course you feel awful. And you might for some time. And when you are done with feeling awful...learned from it, or get sick of it, whatever happens, you will feel ok again.
My only advice on the "right now" you are in, is to try and stay in it...the "right now" part. You hurt. But most of the pain is about the past, I imagine, or about wanting something different (who wouldn't?). Staying still within the pain is so difficult, but that one bit of advice I got during my divorce really made sense. You can't change anything, you can't fix anything. Not now. Just wait it out. Acknowledging you feel like crap is one very giant step in the direction of what YOU want for your life. Give yourself some compassion for being fallible. Your only "fault" was loving someone who didn't really deserve your love. And that makes you an instant member of this club.
Sending strength and peace.
Mum
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Welcome Pavelle,
Your statement about feeling isolated resonated so strongly with me. Once we figure out what we are dealing with--be it in a marriage, parents, siblings, children--it is hard to explain to others who have not lived with that kind of individual, nor have they studied all the hallmarks of the disorder. They look at you like you're from another planet and/or they think you're nuts for having stayed in a relationship with that person for so long.
Fortunately, at this site, most of us do understand what you are saying and how you feel. We have travelled different paths--some are mostly healed, many still have further to go on the journey, but we try to support each other and provide help and encouragement along the route.
My story is similar to yours, with an n father, enabling mother (both now dead), 2 n husbands and now divorced from n #2, with two young adult children from #2. Therapy was my deliverence and savior and I am now among the mostly healed and starting on a new, much happier, journey.
It will be HELL for awhile, but walk through it, not around it or try to avoid it, find your healing and you will come out on the other side with most of your pieces intact. You have an opportunity now to have a better, happier life, but you won't see that until you get through all the crap. Hang in there and I promise it does get better.
Blessings,
Brigid
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The difficulty I am running into with myself is this compulsive need to block out my *true* reality of him. Currently I am not communicating with him, it has been a week at this juncture. Within this process there have been a various lengths of silence, one lasting as long as 3 months. I disconnect any knowlege of him at all for these periods. The long silence was when he crashed, bottomed out and the mental abusive behaviour was put at bay. This took a great deal of strength on my part because I had to quell my hope with a sledgehammer to do this. Since this crash he is more receptive and seemingly weaker, which I guess is to be expected. It also makes it hard, since I am faced with this childlike man, broken and sad. My natural nurturing instincts run amok within me, I want to "help" like some crazywoman-which is really not helpful. I also have proven myself incapeable of being a good source of Ns-for anyone close to me. The invalidation of living with these N's drives me insane, it really kills my spirit and I start in with them, I inevitably get fighting for a self. I cannot avoid this truth. I did with my Family of origin too. Now I don't really bother and instead just live away and try to thwart conflict in place of more mature behavior on my part. I don't look to be validated by them and it works for me, if I slip up it just hurts with them and I take responsibility for my lack of "reality" of the capacity of my parents. I don't know how to do this with my husband. So I'll still try to push to be "seen", which is just pointless pain for me. Then I get some hairbrained notion (or big ego) that I can "handle this" that I can tolerate the slow learning curve of this man, usually masked as some sort of compulsive empathic gesture "oh god he sounds terrible" or "maybe I can take it" which is just nuttiness...I can't. All sorts of hope starts in me that he can change, which yeah maybe he can but man it's gonna be really really slow..like molassas stuck in mud and thats if he puts in the painful work, which if I'm around feeding him Ns he will inevitably get real lazy, that is just fact, it just isn't painful enough for him if I'm around handling it all for him, and man you gotta handle stuff when in his vortex, cause he sure doesn't and it's too painful to watch the wreckage around him. But I'll play shrink with him about around the clock, really it's a full time deal with me, it's a full time job to play shrink. Since it isn't my job really I'm counter productive, it's Ns masked as shrink time, I delude myself I'm speeding up the learning curve but in *reality* I'm slowing it down because I'm the one working on his stuff. This is counter intuitive. Then I get a clue and get disgusted with mainly myself when saying things like "what do you mean your mother was listening in your phone call with me?" I mean I'm talking to an adult last I checked? Really, this is just insanity..and then listening to his standard crazy N son about N mother relationship response of "Well I was being loud" as though this makes her behaviour normal. I usually just end up saying something "helpful" like "I don't want to know anymore about this delusional nutshow and if you cannot understand basic adult boundaries like mothers don't listen in on adult conversations and then throw hysterics about what they overhear for 2 days ...don't discuss this shit with me because you are pathetic" he of course will then become absolutely insanely abusive. Thing is, I know this. I mean how self-destructive am I? Sure I hang up on him and tell him I won't listen to this, but this unwell behaviour on my part, which I do secretly hoping he will "get a clue" which if I combat for about 5 hours he will..but man the cost of abuse to me is high and the learning curve slow and the lesson really only about this ONE issue, not the Big Picture. There are Millions of these pointless little moments. The real issue is me and my inability to accept that fact..no BIG PICTURE. That is *reality* but I sit here, on my computer and feel so sorry for myself, because I lost and it hurts. That damn brick wall again, that damn inexplicable brick wall that is another managment job when you thought it had some love in it for you. The work of it all and I have such a hard time giving in to it, addictive for me. I feel like the heartbreak is too much for me and I cannot fathom why my brain and heart are so broken up. I keep saying to myself "just be logical, just know it, accept accept, you know you cannot win here...it will do you in" I've never extricated myself from this unloveable self that I took from my Fof origin, and this snares me, that horrible "if only you could sublimate your self better, be more saintly, be more understanding, be absolutely needless...." god how horrid even typing that, scary to even write. I also know I'd fail, I failed that test all my life, and thank god really. But the guilt of that fighter in me, that cast off snare of being "bad" for that I still wear it. I still hold it I wish it would go away.
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Hi Pavelle,
I believe you:
the cost of abuse to me is high and the learning curve slow and the lesson really only about this ONE issue, not the Big Picture. There are Millions of these pointless little moments.
These little moments = your life.
How much more of it do you want to spend in such pain?
You really can choose to start using your fighting spirit to fight your own way to your own happiness and your own new life. You reallly can.
You might need help with it, though. Have you given any thought to therapy?
Breeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaathe...
Hopalong
Hopalong
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Welcome, Pavelle.
It's not logical you know. It is a matter of the heart. And it's all mixed up with the stuff from childhood. It's going to take time and grieving and healing. Grief is a really strange thing. It is not a linear process. And it effects parts of you that you might not have even known existed. It effects your feelings, your thoughts, your body. Don't try to go too fast with it. Let yourself think things and feel things and take care of your physical needs.
Sometimes it's going to be overwhelming. I hope that posting here helps with some of it.
Pennyplant
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You know, Pavelle, you don't SOUND like a mess at all. You sound extremely coherent, but in a tough spot right now.
It's not forever, you are not doomed. That you are even thinking this deeply about change is the ultimate example of that change happening. Everything begins with intention. You will not "fail", as there is no failure...just as there is no "triumph".
You sound like maybe you feel a bit like I did a few years back (although there is no way I could write as wonderfully as you to describe it!!). I read what you wrote on the sarcasm thread, and it made me cry. Because I was there. I remember thinking, no saying, to my (brief marriage) second husband (another N, somewhat more charming than the first) that I wanted to be a better person. I didn't want to talk about bad things, and how the world is going to hell, and who is screwed up and how awful things are so lets go get a drink and act like we are so superior, being the intellectual artists and all....
I wanted MORE, BETTER, HAPPIER, KINDER, SOFTER. Thing was, though, I had to go through a hell of a lot of really dark things to find the path....
But I can tell you, I would not go back one step. You are in the middle of it. Keep your head down, keep one foot in front of the other....just keep walking, even if you don't know what you are walking toward...
I realize now, that what I wanted was to find and fulfill my purpose in this life. That's why I was so driven and why it's so hard sometimes, but the joy is like none other. When people post here, who are having similar feelings to the ones I had, I remember how different I have become...and how very much more I like myself.
If I could recommend a few things that helped me through that time, it would be "The Power of Now" by Tolle, and almost any of Pema Chodron's writings. May you find some solace tonight, Pavelle.
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Pavelle
I like to take parts and reply to them. Hope that’s okay? If not, tell me to bug off.
The real issue is me and my inability to accept that fact..no BIG PICTURE. That is *reality* but I sit here, on my computer and feel so sorry for myself, because I lost and it hurts. That damn brick wall again, that damn inexplicable brick wall that is another managment job when you thought it had some love in it for you.
Are you disappointed in yourself? For being drawn in, for falling for the ‘less than real’ one? Hey! These folks can be really very attractive! Yes they are. I feel great around some of them. I feel loved. Wonderful! For a time.
No big deal. I’m human, you’re human. We get drawn in, we like our addictions and familiarity. So what’s next?
The work of it all and I have such a hard time giving in to it, addictive for me. I feel like the heartbreak is too much for me and I cannot fathom why my brain and heart are so broken up. I keep saying to myself "just be logical, just know it, accept accept, you know you cannot win here...it will do you in"
Yes. You can’t win. You can’t lose either. You just get to be….separate and whole. In yourself, not half of another, not fused in love, not so dependant that being apart doesn’t feel okay, not having another dependant on you either (oh that feels good! I’m wanted and needed and have an objective and function in life! BS I tell myself.)
I've never extricated myself from this unloveable self that I took from my Fof origin, and this snares me, that horrible "if only you could sublimate your self better, be more saintly, be more understanding, be absolutely needless...."
Please no. Be selfish, be you, be happy just being. How about it? I love the way you write. Laying yourself bare? Does it feel so?
god how horrid even typing that, scary to even write.
Great. Keep going. Nobody dies. No fear.
I also know I'd fail, I failed that test all my life, and thank god really.
Yes! :D
But the guilt of that fighter in me, that cast off snare of being "bad" for that I still wear it. I still hold it I wish it would go away.
The guilt of being bad? The guilt of being too responsible? The guilt of being human, having needs, being bloody-minded sometimes, being unreasonable, being illogical, having a meltdown, not being perfect?
Join the club. The weird thing is: I’m starting not to care about being bloody-minded and unreasonable. Just starting now. I put it down to suddenly trusting my own opinions, my own gut instincts, my own beliefs and values and actually just starting not to give a fig about what anyone else thinks of me. Sounds awful doesn’t it? I’m beginning to think….no, it sounds okay, it sounds less than perfect, less than some image of 'trying to be', it sounds....human and flawed. How about you?
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Join the club. The weird thing is: I’m starting not to care about being bloody-minded and unreasonable. Just starting now. I put it down to suddenly trusting my own opinions, my own gut instincts, my own beliefs and values and actually just starting not to give a fig about what anyone else thinks of me. Sounds awful doesn’t it? I’m beginning to think….no, it sounds okay, it sounds less than perfect, less than some image of 'trying to be', it sounds....human and flawed.
Superb, Portia. Just superb.
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Mum, Pavelle
Mum, thanks for joining me. I like the tone of this thread, I like the tone of your posts Pavelle, you’re so straight and full-on.
I just read your post on ‘sexualising kids’ and thought (1) like Brenda out of HBO’s Six Feet Under and her N psychiatrist mother and the 70s adult parties where the adults would get too cosy and Brenda watches as a little kid from the doorway (that’s where the sexual similarity stops) and (2) wanting recognition for being a person and not an object. Well my, you’re a person Pavelle, just need to trust that you can give yourself everything you need, all from your own head.
Have you any female friends who tell it like it is? Who don’t give a hoot? Spending time with other women who aren’t caught up in the usual ego-tripping consumerist rubbish might be a respite from the men stuff. Friendship.
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Got a song in my head: Bonnie Raitt's "I WILL NOT BE BROKEN".
I highly suggest singing this at the top of your lungs, sisters. (um, even if you don't sound like Bonnie)
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God this board is comforting. Portia thanks, you are re-affirming this stuff I'm working on in therapy.
This shedding of guilt about it all. It's been hard to take, when the N husband is in baby mode, broken mode. I want to deny his reality and forget my own as well. It is an addiction, well not unlike one. I am in recovery, for a good bit now and know that from my relationship to substances. That delusional belief of "well this one time it will work" schema. Never worked, hopeless case. Once I grabbed onto that self acceptance my life got so much better.
I'm trying to integrate the how of that experience here, and that of therapy. Just follow through with actions right now, don't pick up because your brain is a bit broken up, partial to deluding itself. Take feedback, get good support, try to not lie to yourself, take responsibility for only what you do (action wise) be slow, trust the process.
I do well intellectuallly with what is "real" and poorly emotionally. My heart strings are all jumbled up, disbelief, hurt,wounded.
When faced with this lack of coherence, I get an urge to deny the situation and focus on "him" in this really unrealistic light. I see this sad guy who needs nurturing and I'm the one who is denying him. He doesn't know I feel this way, but he can sense it I'm sure. Or not so sure. I've gotten pretty sharp at masking it, which is most likely how he is able to let me be and not call me. I have no Ns for him and that kills him, that insecurity.
I want to deny this is all I am to him, because god that is painful as hell emotionally. I have done all sorts of stuff to defend myself against that reality in the last 3 yrs. I really didn't want to know, who would, let alone someone from my background.
I have a 6 yr old daughter still at home, that is why I'm not allowed to deny this reality. I keep reminding myself of that. The horror of her living with such a selfish model of manhood, even though she has a good real dad, scares me to death. I have no clue how ill he could become, but I have some suspicions that it ain't gonna be pretty. At best he would suck her dry for attention, at worst, I'd rather not think of.
I'm 40, he is infantile. His background in his family is secretive and very bad. He has a sex addiction to porn and chronic masturbation. He often has a very childish manner of interacting in the world, playing videogames and showing off to his mainly child/teen clientele. He likes attention from kids. His mother uses exclusively him, his father and her daycare children for her Ns by overloading them with no boundaries, secretly violating all parental rules of sugary food, cheap toys and anything else like a weird pied piper and telling them "you love aunt M". He lives like a kid, with his N mother, subjugated father, who treat him like a big baby. He takes very minimal responsibility for himself. Though I have never seen an interest in child subjects, I also know he is paranoid and would guard that. I don't know if he would risk openly acting out or venturing to that level yet..yet...yet if ever. I have no clue what really goes on in his head, I wouldn't ever venture to ask.
God this is all so sick. So I'm getting divorced, it isn't just about me. There are things that just don't look too good and I do have the ability to be a bit paranoid myself, or maybe I should just call that "instincts". I really don't want to do this in retrospect, EVER.
I feel guilty about these instincts, who the hell wants to think about such dark things about ones husband's potential? Sometimes it doesn't help me to think this way, other times it does help me, when I need the big gun on myself of strength. No psychology can guarantee what he would or wouldn't do, no patterning. The signs though, are not good for either myself or my daughter in one area: happiness.
Pavelle
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this sad guy who needs nurturing and I'm the one who is denying him
Nope.
There is nurturing available all over the place for sad guys. They can:
--go into therapy
--join a church
--volunteer and make healthy friends
--work out and eat right
Your gut sensations about him being sexually inappropriate and untrustworthy around your daughter are ABSOLUTE.
And of course...just in case you needed a dealbreaker...this IS IT.
(Doesn't matter if details are proveable or not. Make tracks. Get him out of your and her life.
He can heal himself and grow up if he wants to. If he doesn't, that is his sad chosen destiny.)
You have something better to do. And a child to care for.
Hops
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Not to, for one instant, devalue your pain....but be thankful you didn't have kids WITH this guy or you would end up like a lot of us....years later, still having to deal with him.
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Pavelle
I read all your post. I’m keeping this for me:
Just follow through with actions right now, don't pick up because your brain is a bit broken up, partial to deluding itself. Take feedback, get good support, try to not lie to yourself, take responsibility for only what you do (action wise) be slow, trust the process.
Because I have a brain prone to odd thinking (especially when I ignore my stomach telling me something’s not right). So thanks for the above. It helps me.
I feel guilty about these instincts, who the hell wants to think about such dark things about ones husband's potential?
Would it help to think of EX husband? He’s a man, he’s separate to you, you can think whatever you want to think about him. After what you’ve said, I’m thinking some bad stuff about him too – and that’s my responsibility, not yours, I’m allowed to think whatever I want to too, regardless of what you might want me to think about your posts! Yes? That's my choice.
Sometimes it doesn't help me to think this way, other times it does help me, when I need the big gun on myself of strength.
So use it as the big gun, no worries there. If it works, use it. When it doesn’t work, forget it, not your problem.
No psychology can guarantee what he would or wouldn't do, no patterning.
So what? Not your responsibility and definitely not your responsibility right now. You have enough to think about, without worrying about he may or may not do. Tell you what, when the divorce is over, if you still worry, if you feel a responsibility towards those kids, if you feel a real fear, talk about it then. Right now? If you feel a huge fear (is it realistic), tell someone anonymously. Q: Does me saying that tell you how big your fear is, how realistic? I want to alleviate your perceived responsibility because it’s not helping you. What he might be like has zero to do with you. It's not part of what you're doing right now. Difficult to separate those things out I would imagine. But hey, you're not the only person in the world with eyes and ears.
The signs though, are not good for either myself or my daughter in one area: happiness.
I wouldn’t say that’s for certain. Change is constant. Happiness is a by-product of accepting life as it is I think. I think I see the potential for happiness ahead.
Gotta go for today. Please take care of yourself and your D.
By the way, what do you do just for you? I guess being here is one thing eh? Good! Glad you're here. Back Monday if not before. P
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Pavelle,
I really enjoy reading what you write. You have an amazing ability to put into words many things I have thought and felt about my childhood, marriage, divorce, children, etc.
I think we could have been married to the same man. When I discussed with my therapist the secrets and lies regarding pornography and masturbation, sexual addiction, affair(s?)--just the small amount he actually admitted to--my therapist told me that more than likely there was much more that he had done or would do in the future when he no longer had a family around to monitor his behavior. Since the separation occurred nearly 3 years ago, I have also learned of disturbing sexual behavior of my xfil. It did all start to make some sense after I started fitting the pieces together, having things recovered on my computer which he had deleted prior to exiting, and many hours of therapy and studying nism. Prior to that I just felt like I had entered the Twilight Zone and was the one who had gone crazy.
Fortunately for me, my son was already in college and my daughter was old enough (15) to recognize inappropriate behavior and escape from it if necessary when all of this happened. I am confident that nothing ever happened in the home that involved my children, or they would have said something eventually. They both are struggling with their relationship with their father now and can't understand his behavior. They are very disgusted and embarrassed by his ongoing relationship with a married woman, which, I guess, is a good thing. I don't blame you for having grave concerns about a daughter so young. It is hard to say what limitations, if any, they actually have.
Please keep posting. I am finding it so interesting and enlightening.
Brigid
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not quite gone
Brenda! She resonated with me and I had no idea why, I just kept following her story, not knowing whether she was 'kewl' or sick....but an attractive, familiar personality to me. She shouted at her mother "why is it always about you?" and that got me thinking (though I was still deep in denial). My mother watched it too and commented to me, admiringly, "isn't Brenda great?"....really enjoying Brenda's sexual exploits and obsessions...(rather like Brenda's mother might have done ...the irony kinda stuck in my throat at the time).
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Pavelle,
Definitely bearing with you, here. You are doing very well in being able to communicate at such depth here, I think. My hope is that nothing will stop the flow of thoughts as you reach toward a final understanding of all this, and peace.
You don't sound paranoid to me and I'm wondering whether the word "paranoia" even fits in this situation? In light of what you know to be the facts about this man, can it even be said that he has a potential to act out sexually in a devastating manner? From what I'm understanding here, it doesn't merely seem possible... rather, it seems entirely likely that he would. Personally, I'm of the firm conviction that N is capable of anything, no holds barred. Do you think possibly you need to turn off your understanding of psych for now (I know, easier said than done) and simply allow yourself to respond to the facts as a woman who deserves and needs a safe harbor for herself and her child? I can see that if you continue pondering the potentials, you might get stuck in a rut of guilt and fear which could blind you to the many unacceptable things you know for certain about this person. Pavelle, I think you have all the answers you need. It's ok to be afraid to know more at this point. There's only so much one human being can take and you've had more than enough. The rest will come in time as you break free of this sense of responsibility for a person who obviously chose long ago to serve himself at the expense of everyone else. Maybe he's been able to control some of his darker desires via the ocd (handwashing, etc), but who knows how long that will satisfy him.. or what other vile compulsions might emerge as he grows older? Do you really want to ponder all of the what if's and what's nexts? I hope not, because there is no limit to the horror when N has a perceived need. Don't reach back into the snake pit when there's so much freedom and light out there waiting for you and your little girl.
Still listening,
Hope
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There you go, Pavelle.
We choose all of it, from first breath to last. Good morning, soul sleeper. Welcome to being awake.
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I thought this was a second chance at love, a second chance at happiness and I was going to be handed that as a reward for all my struggles.
In reality, that is actually happening but not in the way I pictured it. I had a little girls view of a big rescuer, who would alleviate all the misery and really like me, flatter me and make me special. And for a bit I was special, just like you are when with an N, all the attention is on you. I might not have admitted how little this dream was, but it was from a very long time ago. I wanted and still grieve this dream being just that..a fantasy of a little lonely girl/woman.
Years after I married my second xh, I would wish that we had more intimacy and physicality in our relationship, but I was so grateful that I had met and married this man who I perceived to be the ultimate in kindness, courtesy, family and Christian values, who took his vows to the core of his soul; after divorcing a self-centered, pompous, n-jerk (my father figure) who treated me like property. I thought I finally had a man in my life who valued me, loved me, who would never do anything to hurt me or our children.
That was the part that made the whole experience for me and for many others taken in by n personalities so difficult--I believed him so totally and completely. I thought I had become a better person for having known and married him. I looked to him for guidance, trusted everything he told me and would never, for one second, have believed he would lie and hide things which would be critical to the success of our marriage. To this day it seems unimaginable how deeply I was sucked in by him. The fact that he doesn't get now why we can't just be friends as we move forward in life and co-parent our children, is a testament to his lack of empathy for how totally and completely he devastated me.
Some similarities I have experienced are that when he left our home, he went to live with his parents, who openly welcomed him home and rejected me and the kids (after 22 years of marriage). I believe that part of the reason he could not be sexual with me was that he viewed me more as his mother than as his wife (who wants to have sex with their mother). He has always been a child in his behaviors--needing to be the center of attention, inability to manage his affairs (money, etc., not women :?), not knowing or caring if what he said or did was inappropriate. He sees life as one big party and he wants no responsibilities.
Gotta go--more later.
Brigid
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Hello Pavelle:
I want to say welcome to this board too. Gee, you've been through so much. But you do sound strong and have much going for you, I think.
It also makes it hard, since I am faced with this childlike man, broken and sad. My natural nurturing instincts run amok within me, I want to "help" like some crazywoman-which is really not helpful.
It sounds like your brain is telling you the correct stuff but your heart is fighting it? You want to help.
It's good to help. I wonder if it would help to think:
"The best way I can help this man is to let go of him".
It's true. You're not helping him get "better" right?
You'd be doing him a favour.
I feel like the heartbreak is too much for me and I cannot fathom why my brain and heart are so broken up. I keep saying to myself "just be logical, just know it, accept accept, you know you cannot win here...it will do you in"
I talk to myself like this too sometimes. Maybe your brain just has too much information and your heart has a lot of need? You need to feel loved? We all do. Or most people do, eh? Can you get love elsewhere?
Away from this sick person?
The major goal we probably all have is to get that "self-love" thingy happening. You do have stuff to love about yourself. Good stuff. Can you take account of it? Really count what you have done right? Have you survived heartbreak before? Can you find ways to look after and take care of you?
I do well intellectuallly with what is "real" and poorly emotionally. My heart strings are all jumbled up, disbelief, hurt,wounded.
I wish I could "cure" you with a big, large, massive cyber-hug.
(((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((Pavelle))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
I wonder if it would help to work on one emotion at a time? For instance....with grieving say.....try to really feel whatever if prevalent.....sadness....just cry and cry and allow yourself to release some of it? Maybe set a sort of time limit (sound ridiculous?). "I will really feel my sadness and cry for a good 20 min".
Then.....wash your face, go for a walk or cook something for you and your D?
Baby steps, is what I'm thinking??
There are things that just don't look too good and I do have the ability to be a bit paranoid myself, or maybe I should just call that "instincts". I really don't want to do this in retrospect, EVER.
I agree that you don't sound the least bit paranoid and that this is your ace in the hole. Remember what you want! (or actually...what you don't want) and keep it up front in your head?? Would that help?
I was rather an unsympathetic character, who knew, I wasn't letting on, half the time I had no clue...I had to metaphorically: shoot myself in the head to "get it".
That was then, this is now. It sounds like you've got stuff fairly straight in your head. Maybe it's just your heart that needs convincing?
I started to write this whole thing about my parents, then deleted it since I started to cry
Did you notice if you felt any better after that release? It really sounds like you had an awful childhood and maybe you have lot's yet to grieve there? Baby steps.
I thought this was a second chance at love, a second chance at happiness and I was going to be handed that as a reward for all my struggles.
All your dreams are smashed? Another giant huge loss to grieve.
But honestly, Pavelle, you're not dead yet. It could still happen for you.
I think you have the right idea about working stuff through first and not falling for this junk again. You can do it!! Others have done it!! You can too!
I can offer myself freedom, grow up and face the pain of grieving this and yes, run to the light that I have denied myself for a lifetime. Or stay in the dark and sleep. It's a painful choice, but the rewards, the push of all the years of work having a forum...
You might be surprised how soon you feel better. This man isn't answering any of your dreams or meeting any of your needs or doing a thing for....you. True freedom will come as soon as you let go of him. The rest will follow. I guarantee it!!
:D Sela
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Dear Pavelle,
Some people say that God is the God of second chances. I've discovered by His grace and mercy that He's the God of 3'rd, and 4th, and multiple ongoing opportunities to receive blessings and a new beginning.
After a 15-year marriage to an emotionally barren man who refused to maintain appropriate sexual boundaries with our children, I met my "second chance" (or so I thought). He turned out to be NPD. A huge part of my motivation to continue trying to make it work with him was a deep sense of revulsion at the idea of failing again. He was "it". He was my 2nd chance... my "saviour"... ahhhh.... no, straight from the pit of hell, he was. Still gives me cold chills. Anyhow, I do understand the depth of commitment we feel when we're engaged in what we view as possibly our last chance at happiness. Don't believe it. There's no limit to God's grace. I also understand the "better the devil that you know" line of thinking and the many ways a person might rationalize staying in an awful relationship. But this isn't just a bad relationship, it's a walking death.
I felt sorry for my ex. I loved him. I thought I knew his vulnerabilities and I wanted to take care of him, to bring joy to his life, to honor the vows I'd made. I'd still be with him if he hadn't threatened me physically (thank You, Lord, for that!) Now I know that you don't ever have to worry about whether N will make it without you. You already know in your heart and mind both that you can't fix him, so please consider this: he will be fine. As fine as an N can be, that is. I don't think there is a stronger sense of self-preservation existant in any human being than an N. Interesting, since they supposedly have no "self" :P He'll be fine, Pavelle, and maybe that's the part that really hurts. He doesn't need you. You can't redeem him and even if you could, he wouldn't let you, but there is redemption available. I pray you'll receive it along with the new beginning that's available.
With love,
Hope
P.S. I thought surely God must hate me for being so utterly foolish and stupid. For awhile, I thought N was my punishment for past sins. Another lie from the pit.
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Hi pavelle, welcome!
I've been spared the horrors of having to divorce and co-parent with an N, there are very wise souls here who are already advising you directly, but I know about the pity trap, the helplessness trap, that Ns can set for their sources of supply...
Ns seem to be programmed to take extreme advantage of the human tendency to confuse pity with love. You find yourself feeling sorry for them and mistaking this for a deeper bond, you find yourself wanting to help them and thinking that you might build something lasting on the shared triumph over a problem.
It's bait, only bait. Love includes compassion and pity but it isn't just these things, it includes helping but it isn't just that. If you are the only one to give compassion and empathy, the only helper, it isn't love. In the non-N world even the tiniest infant, or someone who is bedridden and very ill, seems to want to give something back, out of love, and they find a way to give it - coos, smiles, humor, grace, - just 'being love' towards the person who is with them. It's not an obligation, any more than breathing out is an obligation when you've breathed in. It's the other half of the dance.
Ns never breathe out. They cannot dance this dance. They are to be pitied - but from a safe distance. If you can't get to that safe distance [if you must co-parent with them, for instance] pity is a luxury you can't afford. Compassion can help, but it helps best, I think, if you reserve most of it for yourself and those with you who have suffered and N-dured alongside you.
It looks to me like you've pretty much figured all of this out already, but Ns work so hard to confuse and destabilize our perceptions that it never hurts to have someone reaffirming these things.
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Stormy,
Ns seem to be programmed to take extreme advantage of the human tendency to confuse pity with love. You find yourself feeling sorry for them and mistaking this for a deeper bond, you find yourself wanting to help them and thinking that you might build something lasting on the shared triumph over a problem.
This is a very good and concise statement of the chaos they create in our lives. I always viewed my ex as someone who needed to be cared for. That the little boy that he was did not have a proper mother and I was going to step in and fill the role. Certainly, not knowingly at first, but as time went on and the roles in the marriage became more defined. I also felt the need to protect him from his father who he revered on one hand and loathed on another, but could never stand up to and be a man.
Even as he was walking out of therapy saying he "couldn't do this anymore," I was begging (literally) for him to reconsider. I was imploring him to stay to let the kids and I help him through whatever struggles he was having that made it necessary to leave the family. This after all the information I had learned of the affair, sex addiction, etc., etc. How truly pathetic and needy I was and I know how gratifying it was for him to see me like that. He had finally won by turning me into a pathetic pile of goo who would crawl on my hands and knees clinging to a man who did not care a whit.
Pavelle, as Stormy said, don't confuse pity with love. This guy will be fine--or as fine as he can be with his multitude of dysfunctions. You have to give up the fight for him, as I finally did, and fight for yourself and your daughter. I found that by moving from sadness and hopelessness to a great deal of anger at all he put us through, really motivated me to get up, get moving and start getting on with my life. It's good to slowly let go of that anger over time, but I found it necessary early on to give me energy and purpose.
My arsenal of weapons to save myself became a very good therapist, a very good attorney, my very good friends and my wonderful children (pretty much in that order since the kids were never a weapon, but certainly a motivator).
Many blessings as you move forward on your journey to finding peace.
Brigid
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I was just reminded in reading here, that the pity thing is huge....it's pretty much what attracts Ns to the nurturing type...like blood in the water. And part of staying with those big baby/bullies, is a twofold fear:
Fear that we are not good people if we leave them, floundering and damaged and "baby" like as they are. We know they are screwed up and probably even why they are, and we feel like since we know where the bullshit they hand out actually comes from....we can somehow fix it...care for it.( We can't. )
In addition, there is the fear that they will punish us with the "bully" thing for actually leaving them. This fear is well founded, as they WILL punish us, sometimes (as in the case of sharing kids with them) for the rest of our lives. How dare we leave them? You can't leave an N, they are the ones who leave! They choose, not us! So, even though they may abuse us horribly, we will still be seen as a villan for taking control of our own lives.
But, so what?
If we are damned if we do, and damned if we don't, then I say (from experience) we are far better off owning our own lives.
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Storm, Brigid, Mum:
Your three posts here could be a digest of all the best books on leaving an N--how it feels and why it's absolutely necessary. These are brilliant.
I remember feeling like a moth pinned to a board alive...my wings were flapping but the pity and guilt I felt skewered me through the best part of myself.
Thank god the wings won.
Hops
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I remember feeling like a moth pinned to a board alive...my wings were flapping but the pity and guilt I felt skewered me through the best part of myself.
Thank god the wings won.
Oh, HOPS! What a brilliant collection of words. You are a writer, yes? Oh, my gosh, PLEASE write a book, so I can read words worked together in thoughts like this over and over.
Here's my attempt at making that last request sound more interesting (I am not a writer!) and actually how I feel about wanting to read words like yours (that make such amazing images!):
I want to sink into a bathtub full of your words....and sing underwater and blow bubbles and soak until my skin wrinkles up with water.
ARe you indeed working on a book? PPPPPLLLLEEEEAAAASSSSE DO! I can just see all kinds of people submerged in your book! See it? I do!
It's not a fantasy...you wrote words, and they completely inspired someone else.....wow!!
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Good grief I hope you have some nice moisturizing bubbles. :P
Thank you Mum. :oops:
I have written a lot of poetry and one chapter of a novel I yearn to finish.
You encourage me!
love,
Hops
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Thank god the wings won.
For a minute I got excited. I thought we were talking about hockey. Never mind.
mud
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:P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P
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All:
what a wealth of good stuff here to return to. I went out in the sunshine today (it has rained and rained here all month) and then to a film with a friend of mine. I had many a good cry alone today too, lots of grieving, which had been dormant I think and slowly the grief is hitting, which I think is a good thing.
I'm trying to hold my heart intact right now, bring in some compassion. I really cried today to keep and hold that and I truly see how that can get skewed and has, most definately.
Funny to return to this and see that acknowledged, that fine line. I also need to feel it safe again to have it, to keep that empathy going, that heart to beat again because it is "me" returning and will carry me in my alone, bring back my self-nurture.
So what to do? Today I just prayed while I cried, that I can accept that my job is done and stop this compulsion to hold onto this relationship and let it pass. I also prayed that I don't spiritually execute my ex. To me this means accepting that I don't really know, nor need to know his potentials, that is no longer mine, nor is the outcome. I cried a great deal doing this, because I am not there yet, but I want to be and I need a good deal of help "letting that go". It's no longer mine to know.
My daughter is not his, he has not seen her since we split, nor ever has to again. We share no children, though live in a rather small New England community. The only thing holding this thing is the emotional grip, the last bit of legalities and the grieving that is left to work through.
I guess I'm pretty lucky, it could have been far more difficult...this seems hellish.
Pavelle
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Tremendous growth in a compressed period can indeed feel hellish...but what leaps you're choosing to make, Pavelle---I am so impressed that you decided to grieve and accept your grieving, and this:
I don't really know, nor need to know his potentials, that is no longer mine, nor is the outcome.
I think you have taken a deep, important step today.
Keep breathing, keep walking, and weep when you need to.
You are moving through.
(That compassion has to extend to yourself, your bruised heart and awakening mind, FIRST and foremost.) You're doing it! For yourself and your child. Bravo.
(((((((((((Pavelle))))))))))))))))
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Pavelle. I am moving home, TO a small community in New England. I couldn't wait to get out of there 25 years ago, and ironically, now I am heading back...I think to make my peace with it as an adult. 20 years drying out in the desert was enough.
Anyway, welcome back to yourself...and enjoy the trees, you never know how wonderful they are until you live without them.