Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Hopalong on June 28, 2006, 01:23:19 AM
-
A long post I just wrote vanished. I'm too tired to reconstruct it.
Long story short, my daughter felt shamed by a careless comment I made, and has given me the total silent treatment ever since (won't respond to easy messages that say, how are things going?) and ignores all emails...unless I have something she wants. I offered her a mattress and after not speaking to me for weeks she responded right away.
No thanks, and no love. That's how it's feeling and it's very very painful. I think there's nothing I can do but wait...except that I am truly afraid that she is making a pivotal decision that she wants to have a totally superficial relationship with me, and to hell with treating me like a human being.
I can make no mistakes with her. She rages and rejects, unless she wants money.
That's all, really.
I just don't know if I should tell her how this is making me feel, or join her in the silence.
Neither feels right, and I don't know what to do.
Hops
-
Hops, I don't know enough about your situation to give any thoughtful input. How old is your daughter? Could this be something realted to age/a phase. I know young adults have a hard time seeing past their own existences. I really think you SHOULD tell her how you feel. Not to attack her, but to say, hey, do you realize how I feel? I feel like you only talk to me when you want something. I love you and I feel that I am just an object to you. Maybe she is just not seeing beyond herself right now.
(((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((Hops))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
-
She's 25....she dropped out of college after her Dad died 6 years ago, went through some very dark times and behaviors, then re-enrolled and finished well. Now she's doing part-time jobs and planning to try for grad school. She's never had any therapy except for a few months when her Dad and I split when she was six. She and I used to be very very close (too enmeshed).
I just feel I can't make any mistakes or she will abandon me. And I guess the way I feel now is that she basically has.
When I briefly spoke to her on the phone a few nights ago, her dislike when she realized it was me, was something I'd never heard in her voice before.
She does things I've disliked too, but I would not withhold my love. My biggest fear is that she will make this a permanent stance toward me and she's my only child and I don't know how I could ever be happy again.
Hops
[edit PS: I know that sounds dramatic and self-pitying. I also know it was my own Nspots that contributed to our being enmeshed when she was younger. I know a whole list of my mistakes as a mother by heart. But I've never been intentionally mean to her. Ever. She is reminding me so much of her father's mean streak lately, and I'd never seen that from her before, and I am scared by it. If there was one thing in the universe I thought I could count on, it was the love between my daughter and me. I know I have to let go, and let her choose what kind of person she wants to be. I also know part of the reason I'm getting so much bile from her is that I'm the only family she's close enough to to act out with. But I hate this. I feel punished, way out of proportion to my "crime". And since it seems to be her very strong (and lasting) reaction to shame, it's just causing me to have a lot of fears about who she's become. Most of all, I want her to be a good and happy person. I have known for some time that it might take her a long struggle to learn to be happy (so far, she's refused therapy)...but it's only lately I've started to wonder about whether she would intentionally be unkind. The night I made my final decision to leave her father was a night he intentionally chose to be hurtful to her (in order to wound me)--and she went to bed crying her heart out. Ironically, 20 years later, I feel she's treating me the same way.
-
Hi Hops,
I'm so sorry to hear about your daughter. I have one like that, too. If I give her money, I'm a great mom. If I request respect when she is disrespectful, she rages. She even threatened to call the police when I balked at giving her money that she thought she should have. When I asked her to leave my house because she was ridiculing my judgment in front of the other children, she said to me, "What are you going to do, call the police?" I know it's extremely painful, but I've had to harden my heart to it for my own sanity.
You said you feel you can't "make a mistake" because your daughter will abandon you. I might be wrong, but is it possible she is manipulating you with that fear? It has nothing really to do with whether or not you can act perfectly right in her eyes. No one can bear that burden. Love doesn't require that.
It must be doubly hard because she is your only child. But, in the long run, respect yourself and require her to respect you, too. Otherwise, it's not a healthy relationship--not good for you and not good for her, either.
Gail
-
Thank you, Gail. I am very sorry about what you've been through with this daughter. It must have been agonizing.
I'm praying my D and I are not so profoundly estranged. I would like very much to nip it in the bud, and I do agree that I must respect myself and require respectful behavior from her too.
In the issue of ignored messages with questions (such as, how is your job going? How are things? What do you do to prepare for your GREs, are the books helping any?--spread out over several messages and some period of time...it's not an inquisition). How do you think I can "require respect" from her in terms of the silent, distant treatment? Or when she's bossy and curt, and just responds when she wants something?
What sort of thing can I say that will get that across, or do I say nothing?
I hate the idea of returning her silent treatment with the same. Likewise, I don't think I should be begging her to treat me decently.
There mustbe some way to steer this back from the brink. I can't bring myself to think that she is so far gone. She has never been this way to me before. Irritable and defensive, yes. But also funny and companionable. When I would visit her at school she would always be affectionate to me with her friends, and we'd do movies together, etc. and go to church...such a short while ago.
Several things have happened that upset her: her stepmother decided she didn't like me any more (perhaps my D is blaming me) so we're no longer her "two Moms" although we'd been friends, I embarrassed her by writing about her tattoos to her hosts in France, and the careless remark I made recently was when she asked me, oddly "I ate too much, do you know how a person can make themselves throw up?" And I was distracted by the TV and didn't stop to think and just looked at her and said well I think you already know how to do that. (A few years back I had traveled to her city in a panic because her stepmother had alerted me to what she believed, and I did too, was bulimic behavior. I had been blind. Anyway, she denied it but was very affectionate with me when I came, though shocked. I remember her roommate wandering through saying, well I wish I had a mom who would drive down south to tell me she was afraid I had bulimia!). Anyway, she's normal weight+ now, quit smoking, re-enrolled in school and finished well, and though she talks about a "nervous stomach" from time to time I have stopped worrying about bulimia. But...when I made this careless thoughtless remark when she was visiting, she blew up, shook her finger in my face (she'd never done anything like that before) and demanded that I retract my belief that she had ever had it. I eventually backpedaled, but that's what started this round of ignoring my messages and walling me out.
PPS--good article. Scares me to pieces (I'm afraid I'm everything bad or N she describes) but it's good: http://www.onlineparadigm.com/archives/214-F02_A.GI.MH.P.pdf
-
At 25, she's got a lot going on in her life and she's still trying to find herself, IMHO.
We've struggled with our eldest DD since she was 3 yo (I'm not kidding!). She's 19 now, and looking back I can see how things I did made the situations worse. She and I have a strained relationship and that is painful. I've learned that when she's most disrespectful, there's usually lots of other things bothering her. She's one that lets everything build up inside herself and she always views her glass as half-empty. Course that later part she learned from my negative behaviours. From things I"ve learned on this board and research I've done, I can see I was too enmeshed in my DD--I put too much emotional dependence on her and her life. I was too controlling and tried to live vicariously through her many times. My DD also resents questions these days, even simple ones, and I can see she really needs her space. She has blocked me out in many ways and has chosen basically her friends over us (me, her dad, her sister and her brother). Of course when she wants something, that is a whole different story. The river of tears I've cried over her through the years is incredible. I do think DD1 has N traits, but I'm praying she'll "see the light" as I have and become a more whole person. DD1 has refused counseling and won't take her antidepressants anymore, which we believe she needs. She has seroius anger issues in most aspects of her life (she learned the anger bit from me too :() and hasn't done well so far in college.
Getting to the point. Sounds to me like maybe your daughter needs her space right now and even simple questions on your part aren't going to be welcomed for a while at least. From what I've read about the Karpman triangle, etc... it's healthy for your daughter to break away. Maybe the meaness you hear in her is her way of breaking some ties with you :( Which hurts you tremendously, but she probably can't see or realize that. I don't think we ever understand the pain we cause our parents until we become parents. And while it would be great if she would get counseling, you can't make her and even if you could, she would resent that too. I know it must hurt much more deeply with her being your only family left, but if you believe in prayer, pray hard for her and yourself. Pray that she will find the independence and maturity she needs and work through her anger issues. Only when she has done these things will she be ready to reforge a bond with you, IMHO.
I've found that the only way to get along with DD1 is to be pleasant and happy sounding when I talk to her, don't ask questions, don't be needy, and try to share something fun or happy in my life. Recently I've explained to her that I know I haven't been the best mom (well I've told her before this too) and that I'm sorry for things I've done and that I feel our relationship is strained and that I know she needs her space right now and that she's getting to the age where I won't be her mother so much anymore and that I hope our relationship can move to a "friend" level and that I'm here when she needs me. That seemed to ease the tensions a little.
Keep talking to us about it, maybe we can help. I'll say a prayer tonight for you and your DD. :)
-
((((((((Hops)))))))
A long post I just wrote vanished. I'm too tired to reconstruct it.
How about writing in Word and pasting in? That way you won’t lose anything unless Word crashes (and even then it should recover your document). Okay? Serious point here, Frankl style probably!
You say she felt shamed by your comment. From what you say, she reacted very angrily. Does that indicate shame? I don’t know. Are you sure she felt shamed is what I’m asking, did you ask her.
What does abandoning you look like? You’ve stayed very close to your mother and maybe your daughter is reacting against that; i.e. pulling away from you because in that emotional logic, she thinks “there’s no way I’m going to be like mom”.
She’s young, she’s trying to find her own way in life, she has many problems to resolve and you, Hops I’m sorry, are not the person to help her resolve those problems. You’re her mother and as such are the person she will rage against, the one she will be angry with, the one she will reject etc etc etc.
You are the most important relationship in your daughter’s life. You will suffer because of that and that’s awful, but it is life.
I’d wager that she can’t abandon you. I can’t abandon my mother, it’s an impossibility. What she can do is find her own life and see you as a separate person. Maybe you can help her do that by letting her find her way and not expecting her to relate to you in a healthy way right now.
While she’s in her problem-finding-and –solving stage, you can help by not putting additional pressure on your relationship. Let her be and wait for her to want to talk to you. I don’t see that as the silent treatment; I see that as graciously allowing her to make the choice for herself. Tough I know, but maybe she'll learn from having that space. How about it?
-
((((((((((Hoppy)))))))))))
How painful this must be for you and your daughter.
I think the first thing I want to say is don’t beat yourself up for not being the perfect mother, or for making any mistakes. Who is the perfect parent? What parent doesn’t make mistakes? I’m not sure how long she’s been giving you the silent treatment?
You asked about what sort of things you can say or do you say nothing? I don’t feel you should say nothing, so what can you say…. At 25 I’m guessing that she thinks nothing can fase her, she’s still got a lot of the I’m indestructible. She has also been through so much that she may have a tough exterior, an if I can get through that I can get through anything? I don’t know her so I’m only speculating here…
So maybe a way is to not ask her questions… just a simple how are you and that you are missing her, and then let her know what’s happening in your life, finishing with a hope to hear from you soon, lots of love, Mum. No pressure, no questions, but with an opening for her to share what she wants with you, when she wants to.
(((((((((((Hoppy)))))))))))))
Love H&H xx
PS: And your not without your D's love... it's just buried under other things at the moment. Even if you look at my situation with bio dad, I still care.
-
Just thinking along a different line here. If this doesn't help, please just pass it by...
If you replace the word 'daughter' with the word 'mother', or the word 'friend', what kind of picture do you form of the person's behavior then?
I'm seeing a vivid picture of someone who manages to behave pleasantly as long as she gets her way in all respects... I'm not really seeing much evidence of love, rather, it seems to me that she's relating to you more like she might to her favorite vending machine. You push the button, it gives. If it doesn't give, you kick it and swear at it.
I know it would be lovely if families really were different, special, and better; it would be wonderful if blood ties really created an instinct to cherish, honor, and preserve one another; but I truly think we have ample proof - not only in our own lives [what brought us here, after all?] but in any daily newspaper on any given day - that this is not the case. Not automatically. Look at Moon... her family [Mr. Moon and the Moonlets] loves, but they've WORKED at it. And every one of them had to want it to work, or it wouldn't have, not for all of them. There's only so much a parent can do, if a child won't meet them even halfway.
Hops, has there ever been a problem with alcohol or substance abuse, that you know of or have suspected? That can also result in this type of behavior...
On another thread I saw someone give the excellent example of the poor rats with the electric shock. That was in response to a mother's behavior towards someone here. It goes the other way too. Children can do the same thing to parents, it's not just handed down, sometimes it gets handed up.
Good old ever-cheerful Stormy, over and out.
-
Storm, what’s the answer? ...
I think to live and let live and see what happens next. Hops has 56 years of life experience, her D has 25. I think an attitude of wait and see might help? 25 is still young, the brain has only just finished growing and learning it’s planning skills, I’m for giving her space and a break….which I suppose is what you’re saying
There's only so much a parent can do, if a child won't meet them even halfway.
here, differently? Another point, a parent may not actually be in a position of power over the adult child, but the child may still see it that way……so there’s lots to consider... Not easy, never is I guess. :?
-
P, I don't think there's an answer in the sense of a simple solution for all concerned... people are too complicated for that... but they do say in recovery that if doing something doesn't work, continuing to do it even harder isn't likely to work any better.
Maybe a partial answer is to let go. 'The bank's officially and permanently closed. I'm no longer going to try to purchase your love. I love you, but I cannot go on living like this, being treated well only when I have something you want, and only until the instant you get it. You know where to find me if you ever decide you want things to be different and better than this between us. It's up to you now. I've done what I could, and it just doesn't work.' [Then you send cards for Christmas and birthdays, etc., but otherwise you let things be.]
But you really have to be prepared to stick with it, because verbal boundaries don't work; they have to be set through actions, or in this case ceasing to act [rescue].
This used to be called 'tough love'. What it is, is allowing someone to experience the consequences of their behavior... and it is never easy, and it always hurts.
-
Thanks Storm, I see where you’re going now and I agree with the course of action – or inaction. Letting go and losing those expectations so that whatever happens…happens.
Hops, I agree with Storm, what you’re doing isn’t working for you, so stop doing it and see what happens? That’s one idea. Prodigal son stuff I guess, sort of? Course you don’t need to say anything (probably better not to, saying anything would be a show-down), just don’t act, don’t communicate …and see what your D does. And when she does get in touch? (which she will I’d bet) – see if you can have some kind of reciprocal relationship. I’m hoping for the best.
-
Hops,
I'm really, really sorry for the pain this must be causing you. When we are experiencing problems with our children, it does feel like someone cut out a chunk of our heart and stomped on it.
I don't believe that your D is abandoning you at any level. I think she is just testing the limits of your unconditional love (which in their minds also means an unconditional, continuous supply of money, clean laundry, meals, vehicles--whatever they need to live their lives comfortably). I don't think you can do any more than what you have already done to fix the situation. I'm guessing that you have been trying alleviate some guilt from the years you were with her dad by enabling and excusing her less than positive behaviors. I get it, believe me. But she's crossing the line and she is an adult who must now figure out her own life.
As hard as it is, I agree that some "tough love" is probably necessary at this juncture. No need to be mean or angry--just maintain an indifference to her hurtful statements and behaviors. When she can no longer gets a rise out of you through being difficult, she may decide to try a different tact to get your attention. Hopefully, she will eventually realize that working with you rather than against you will gain her a lot more ground, and the attention she craves.
Hugs,
Brigid
-
Hi Hops,
I have a strong "hunch" to share with you.... for what it's worth. My eldest is 24 and we've been through some challenging encounters over the years.
I don't think that your daughter was shamed by your "careless remark". I'm guessing that she's feeling exceptionally vulnerable right now and possibly doubting her own ability to live up to your desires/expectations for her life. I think that she's interpreted your rather flip response re: how to make herself throw up as a sign that your previous concern re: her suspected bulimia was not sincere. She wants you to rescue her from herself, and yet at the same time she will fight tooth and nail against any attempts on your part to do just that. In order to relieve the pressure she's feeling, it's easier for her to just put you in the box labeled "phony and insincere" than to deal with the reality that she's the only one who can make wise choices now and control herself. Her battle is not with you, it's with the parts of you that she sees within herself... those parts that she thinks make her weak and susceptible to injury. I believe that this will pass as you continue to share yourself openly and transparently with her, remembering that she is 25 on the outside, but still facing some adolescent power struggles within. As she tests the limits of your love, she'll learn how to recognize the source her own emotions and reign them in, if you can express yourself without condemning her for "making" you feel as you do. In other words, yeah, I think you need to tell her how you feel, maybe in writing, without interruptions or opportunities for word twisting and blame shifting. Seems to me that "kids" (even at 25) often try on for size the attitudes of those with whom they were exposed while growing up. Whether that's more a consequence of nature or nurture seems irrelevant. All we can do is be open and honest with our kids and determined not to reinforce the negative stuff. Sorry you're going through this now, but truly it's an open door to a whole new level of relationship,
With love,
Hope
-
Hops, I'm so sorry for everything you're going through. It must be very painful.
I can only offer the perspective of my own family. My oldest sister went through some of the same things with my mother, including a lot of come-here-go-away behavior and comments. She really drove my mother to the limit for a number of years. But in the end, my sister developed a way of dealing with my mother that worked for her. She kept my mother at arm's length, but she never withdrew or ceased contact. It wasn't the relationship my mother wanted, but even my mother was able to admit that it probably worked for my sister and was far better than nothing. But this didn't establish itself until my sister was in her forties.
All I'm really trying to say, and all I really know, is that mother/daughter relationships are a lifelong work-in-progress. They develop in cycles. This is a very unpleasant cycle for you, but it may be necessary for your daughter's growth. She obviously has a lot going on in her life, and she's still establishing herself as an adult. How much of this is really about you is difficult to say, but my guess is that some of it is also about other things or people.
For now, please know that my thoughts are with you.
best,
daylily
-
You wrote: "Long story short, my daughter felt shamed by a careless comment I made, and has given me the total silent treatment ever since"
First of all, did you make clear your remorse for making the careless comment? Did you sincerely apologize and let her know it wouldn't happen again? Sometimes this is all it takes to make a person melt and be vulnerable.
Second, I detect a bit of 'reading her mind' when you say your daughter "felt shamed". How do you know how she felt? Did she tell you? Did you discuss it? Could it be that YOU felt shame about the comment you made and not controlling yourself?
I once read a statement in a book about LOVE that talked about honoring the fragility in others. It really struck me and has stayed with me. We are all really fragile inside to the comments of others. Alot of times we respond with a hardness back. It's just a trick to get back and speak to that fragility inside.
Good luck.
-
Hiya Hops:
This is no fun eh? I'm so sorry for the hurt you're experiencing and the worry and all the other feelings that go along with all of this. What to do??
I keep thinking of Eleanor Roosevelt and that "You'll be damned if you do and damned if you don't.” comment.
I vote for expressing your feelings in a gentle, supportive way and about some of your wants/needs.
Maybe you could let her know how much you care about her, how you are concerned for her welfare and want only the best and happiest life for her? What if you express how you'd really like to be close with her but how you understand that she is a grown woman now, making her way in the world and that she needs her space? And last, that you are proud of her and respect her and are going to allow her whatever space she needs and that you will always be glad to listen, always here, if she wishes to share about her life (that you are interested and enjoy her company and would love to hear from her regularly)?
And leave it at that. :shock: Give her space and time to think?
Then, if the next time she contacts you......if she begins by asking for financial assistance or whatnot......what if you re-express how glad you are to hear from her! How much you care about her and think about her and miss her! How proud you are of her and interested in hearing about how things are going, if she would like to share?
How do you think that would go? It's not easy at all, is it?
Maybe you can decide exactly how much financial assistance you are willing to give her and set a limit (for yourself). Then you can explain that you will not be going past that limit, because she is an adult and you want allow her to take responsibility for herself (it's your job as a parent to help her learn to do that eh?).
I just feel I can't make any mistakes or she will abandon me.
Hops, do you want to let this fear rule your behaviour?
It's impossible for you not to make mistakes, so it's only a matter of time, if you really believe this.
What if you were to decide to abandon this idea? And adopt something else -- decide not to believe your worst fear will happen?
((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((Hoppy))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
Sela
-
Hops I am sending all my thoughts of love to you and your daughter .
Maybe a little not holding on to tight right now would be good for your daughter to see strength in you.So many times gentleness is taken for weakness .
That is what I have found.
Hoppy I send my whole hearts love to you .
Hugs
Moon
-
Dear Hops ,I reread Sela's post. She is so correct and right on.
Love and Light
Moon
-
((((Hops))))
-
Hi (((Hops)))
I'm sorry this is happening. It is so very hard. When it comes right down to it, you will do what you feel most comfortable with. My hope for you is that you don't continue to beat yourself up about this.
I don't think anything is forever. I have seen people reconnect when I thought it was never possible. People grow and change. Sometimes it takes quite awhile, though.
It seems to me that your comment set her off out of all proportion to what was actually said and why you said it. So, that probably means something else or something additional is going on with your daughter. And that belongs to her. My opinion is that the only thing you might say is an apology for the comment and for possibly hurting her feelings. That's all. That should be enough punishment for the "crime". The rest is hers.
I tend to go along with Portia and Stormy as far as something of a tough love approach. Not even so much that it is "tough" but that there is distance both physically and emotionally. Some kind of neutrality. You have done your utmost. And that is enough now. No more guessing what might be going through her mind. That is for her to reveal when and if she wishes. No more worrying about the job you did. You did fine. You really did.
I see the love you give here and the respect you give to others here. That is the real you. She will see that in time too. And appreciate it.
Your daughter has to take a lower place now on your list of priorities. She is a 25-year-old adult. She can take care of herself. When I was 25, I had one son in first grade and a baby at home, possessions, responsibilities, etc. Not that I recommend this!! But 25 is old enough to be out there in the world and even be responsible for the lives of others. She is old enough to be completely responsible for herself. She will find the resources to solve her own problems, as well she should. Whether it is kind of messy or not.
I hope this isn't coming off as a scolding. It is not intended as such. That thing about "when I was 25, I had a son in first grade...." that is how I give myself perspective. The rest of the world expected me to be very responsible at that age since I had children, and that was as it should be. Therefore, to me, the other stuff is a given. Old enough to make mistakes and solve them, old enough to have a home and a paycheck and get to work on time, old enough to own her own feelings and responses to others.
I think the hardest role is that of mother. So much is expected of us. Much of it not reasonable. Yet, we are judged or judge ourselves harshly based on how well we replicate those unreasonable expectations. So unfair. I hope you forgive yourself for what you have perceived as your shortcomings. Because chances are those really weren't such bad things afterall. But forgive yourself anyway. Then start with today and who you are and where you are now.
You know, we rarely see or hear from our son. He calls us on the major holidays. Looks forward to seeing us once or twice a year for a couple of days. He rode a bus all night long to get here in time for his grandfather's funeral. When we do talk, he fills us in. But he keeps a lot to himself. At one time, I didn't think we would even have that much with him. Similar situation as Adrift describes with her 1st D. But he does care for us and thinks of us. We give him space and don't worry very much anymore. We accept him as he is and try to respect him as we would any other adult who we liked a lot. He knows we love him. We know he loves us. He is different from us in many ways. And the same in many other ways. Small gifts, but when I remember how it used to be and how I thought he would just leave us forever..... it's enough. We just had to trust him in the end to know what was best for his life. And he did know what was best.
Hops, I hope you are feeling all this support coming your way. It is very heartfelt.
Love, Pennyplant
-
Hi all,
I'm overwhelmed by all the support and thoughtfulness. Thank you.
I need some time to walk and think and then re-read and give you the responses you deserve.
I am very grateful.
Thank you all.
love,
Hops
-
Just want to thank every one of you again, so profoundly.
This is so painful for me to look at, think through, and compose a reponse to you about that it may take me a while.
I just want to be sure you know I'm not taking your caring and effort in your amazing responsiveness and generorsity for granted.
I am letting all your voices sit in my heart. I'm trying to hear it all and find peace about this and I will.
Then I will write.
Meanwhile, my most grateful thanks
and love,
Hops
-
Hi, Hops . Wow, this is tough. I have a daughter, too, although she is only 13, but I know how emotional the mother daughter relationship can be.
You have recieved a lot of good advice... and although my d is younger, it's good to remember: everyone is responsible for themselves. You can only take care of "your side of the street". What she does on her side, is up to her. Yes, letting go of wanting...anything....something different.....is key in getting free of this fear. You won't die without her approval, nor will she die without yours. It would be nice to all get along, but she may just need a while to figure this out...and you too.
So in the meanwhile....I will send healing thoughts....images of peace and sweet love to you both...
You know the "deep down"...so does she...have some faith, Hops.
-
Hops,
A few things from your posts...
Yes, I believe she is very angry with you about the bulimia warning she gave you. I was a very unhappy tenn/young adult, and I gave out many signals to my parents of this sort in the hopes that they would help me. I think you need to talk to her about this NOW. You should say you have been thinking about it and you would really like to know if she is having problems with it and if you can help her. You should also tell her that hurting herslef is HER CHOICE and that she is hurting herself only, and while you love her and can help her find help, you can't make her stop hurting herself. She is feeling much the wounded child now.
I also believe that you are taking on too much from her. She is an adult (though she is not acting much like one). She is also an angry adult. It is no doubt coming from many things... the broken home... possibly she is upset by the "second family." At any rate, YOU CANNOT CONTROL HER. WHat she does now is her choice. DO NOT let her manipulate you by withholding love. I fully believe you should say to her, "Honey, I love you tremendously. You are an adult and you can choose how you want to treat me. Your choices, good or bad, are your choices. I will no longer support you financially." I know this sounds harsh, but she is using you now, and not treating you with respect.. If you allow her to continue to do this, she will never show you the respect you deserve.
(((((((((((((((((((((((((((Hops))))))))))))))))))))))))) Be strong!!!!!
Love, Beth
-
Hopalong,
I don't really have any advice or wisdom except something I have always believed with children:
even if the door isn't always open, leave it unlocked.
And a light in the window, soup on the stove....
You can't make her more mature, you can't make her appreciate the parts of herself which she needs to change, she'll only discover that in time ( as you have, as I have )
You can however keep loving her whilst working on stuff you feel you need to eg boundaries or assertiveness or whatever you particularly feel you need etc.
It takes people a while to adjust to change, and if you've always been in a certain role then over time you've seen it as unhealthy and altered things- she may see that as rejection.
If she has some N traits like her father, that is rejection infinity squared, way out of proportion.
But as well- some kids need a long time of establishing themselves and their independence before parents are fully allowed back in their lives. If she's made lots of mistakes, she'll be more sensitive to that.
The best thing you can do is make a good, happy life for yourself, and be pleased to see her & share it with her when she visits.
-
Hi, all.
I have absorbed so much help from your responses.
Dandylife:
did you make clear your remorse for making the careless comment? Did you sincerely apologize and let her know it wouldn't happen again?
I did...at the time. But it bore repeating.
And..
'reading her mind' when you say your daughter "felt shamed". How do you know how she felt? ....Could it be that YOU felt shame...
You're right, she didn't say that. But I saw it produce rage followed by tears and fury, and I thought that looked like shame. Yes, I was ashamed about my thoughtless remark. Definitely.
I love the idea that love is honoring the fragility in others. Thank you.
--------------
Brigid,
This feels very true: I'm guessing that you have been trying alleviate some guilt from the years you were with her dad by enabling and excusing her less than positive behaviors. I get it, believe me. But she's crossing the line
I think you have both of us pegged. I'm going to try being kind/assertive/nurturing but not a doormat, etc. Whew, I'm dizzy! I not only feel guilt about leaving her Dad (though I couldn't have stayed) but especially for my 2nd major-N husband, whom she disliked and who shadowed the 2nd half of her childhood. He was as lousy a stepfather as husband, and I was all swoony over his attention --at frist--didn't note the red flags (one of which was her strong objection, at age 8, which she overrode to be supportive to me. But she knows my heartfelt regret.)
Sela,
I took your advice, all of it. Much love and respect, telling her all the reasons I'm so proud of her, and how I know she's juggling so many different scenarios about her future. Told her I want an adult relationship in which I treat her with respect and courtesy and that's how I want to be treated too. I did add that I'd like to hear from her more often, and that if I leave her a personal message I'd like an answer, because I'd been feeling that she was only interested if I had something she wanted and that hurt. I could second-guess my message to her but it felt honest and like me.
----
Penny:
This gave me a lot of relief:
distance both physically and emotionally. [well, not that part...I don't really WANT distance, but I think letting go will amount to the same thing for a time up to her....] Some kind of neutrality. You have done your utmost. And that is enough now. No more guessing what might be going through her mind. That is for her to reveal when and if she wishes. No more worrying about the job you did. You did fine. You really did.
Except I truly would find it terribly hard to only see her twice a year as you have accepted with your son. I hope we wind up closer than that. But I do have to let her go and come back as she needs to.
Thanks PP.
---------
Hope:
Your wisdom, calm, and perceptiveness give me HOPE.
I'm guessing that she's feeling exceptionally vulnerable right now and possibly doubting her own ability to live up to your desires/expectations for her life. I think that she's interpreted your rather flip response re: how to make herself throw up as a sign that your previous concern re: her suspected bulimia was not sincere. She wants you to rescue her from herself, and yet at the same time she will fight tooth and nail against any attempts on your part to do just that. In order to relieve the pressure she's feeling, it's easier for her to just put you in the box labeled "phony and insincere" than to deal with the reality that she's the only one who can make wise choices now and control herself.
You're messing with my head because if it's your religious faith that gives you this confidence and insight, then I am missing something I haven't found yet. Thank you profoundlly.
---------------
Portia:
You're so smart and succinct you blow me away! Thanks, P, for this clear sound thought:
what you’re doing isn’t working for you, so stop doing it and see what happens?
-------
Have to take a break...I can't believe 12 people responded to lift me up.
You DID.
Thank you,
Hops
-
Hi Hoppy,
you have a lot going on right now! How are you coping? It must be next to impossible. Please do not expect to be perfect now. Just get through it all in one piece. That alone will be a feat! Allow yourself to make some mistakes.
Your title is a little surprising. Your daughter will always be your D and you will have your ups and downs. Maybe it feels like you are losing her love over this one issue. But that is not possible. Maybe she will be hurt, upset, withdraw....but not stop loving you. Can you agree with that?
Maybe coming from your childhood or a marriage is that fear of losing the love of your loved one by making a mistake. A small mistake. And this fear had to be confronted every day. And you had to live with stress and on eggshells.
But a normal relationship is not destroyed by a single act of, what at worst might have been thoughtlessness. You cannot possibly destroy the entire relationship with your daughter just by making that sort of comment.
Only if that comment were part of a web of critiism or lies or putdowns,...you get the drift. Only if it were the very last straw.
So you can relax about having to salvage the whole relationship now. You can stop punishing yourself about ruining your daughter's love. The love is not on the line. Give her the space she needs to grow up, work through things on her own. You hit a sore spot. You tried to make it right. That is all you can do.
You are a good mother. Not perfect.
Also remember that whatever you do, you are still teaching her. If you desperately hound her to reassure you that she still loves you, she is learning that behaviour too. Just think where and when it might come out.
Don't worry about thanking people. It is nice, but no one posts up here in order to get a thank you back. I am so glad you are here and getting great advice on this thread. You are so nice. And you deserve all the love and friendship you attract here.
the prodigal
Plucky
-
Where has the prodigal plucky been?
Not dining with the pigs I hope. :shock:
Nice to see you, plucky.
mud
-
Hi Hops,
I'm sorry these issues with your D. hurt so much. I'm sorry for her pain, too; it must be hard to bear. Seems like it must be incredibly hard for a giving parent to see their emotional needs as equally important to their kids'. Some folks never get there. Hope you can credit yourself with guts just for trying to address what feels wrong in this relationship, even if your D.'s receptiveness is limited now.
For what it's worth, I think you've already received and taken much good advice here, particularly from yourself:
She is reminding me so much of her father's mean streak lately, and I'd never seen that from her before, and I am scared by it. If there was one thing in the universe I thought I could count on, it was the love between my daughter and me. I know I have to let go, and let her choose what kind of person she wants to be. I also know part of the reason I'm getting so much bile from her is that I'm the only family she's close enough to to act out with. But I hate this. I feel punished, way out of proportion to my "crime".
I would like very much to nip it in the bud, and I do agree that I must respect myself and require respectful behavior from her too.
[/color]
Daylily
How much of this is really about you is difficult to say, but my guess is that some of it is also about other things or people.
[/color]
Stormy
On another thread I saw someone give the excellent example of the poor rats with the electric shock. That was in response to a mother's behavior towards someone here. It goes the other way too. Children can do the same thing to parents, it's not just handed down, sometimes it gets handed up.
[/color]
Sela
I keep thinking of Eleanor Roosevelt and that "You'll be damned if you do and damned if you don't.” comment.
I vote for expressing your feelings in a gentle, supportive way and about some of your wants/needs.
[/color]
Plucky
Also remember that whatever you do, you are still teaching her. If you desperately hound her to reassure you that she still loves you, she is learning that behaviour too. Just think where and when it might come out.
[/color]
I hope you're feeling some peace now for the brave act of telling your D. how you feel? That's what's most important; Hops' heart.
In my own FOO, to me the worst legacy of my F.'s N-stuff (who came up with 'nidiocy' ; ooh, that's good!) wasn't his direct abuse, but the negative models he taught the rest of us re. how to treat each other, which we kept alive after he was gone. My Mom and I loved and liked each other, but she was hypercritical of me from childhood on, and once I finally realized how much that hurt (and became committed to healthier relationships with everyone in my life, including me) it had to stop. Period.
imho, significantly changing a lifelong FOO dynamic, especially when one person doesn't welcome the change, is beyond hard. Really, it was loads to expect, that my Mom would honor boundaries, drawn by her youngest, that she herself hadn't learned to set. I must've been called oversensitive 6 million times. She said worse stuff, too, wounding sh*&. Often she and my sibling ganged up on me, ala Karpman;'It's you who's the problem!' I was yelled at, ignored, accused, and hung up on. One day I finally howled (literally), 'You know Mom, everytime you call me oversensitive when I've just told you my feelings are hurt, I feel like you're really just giving yourself permission to keep on doing it, what you're really saying is hurting me is easier for you than treating me better. And if you think I'm gonna' give up asking for what I need, you don't know me. Because I'm not asking for anything I don't give you.'
imho, consistently striving for a change like this can be emotionally brutal work. The negative feedback can hurt like hell, even for years. A thankless, sh*&-wading endeavor. Is it ever worth it, though, imho, no matter what happens. At a minimum, trying that hard can teach you a lot about yourself. Even if the other person needs space at times. Sooner or later, so long as they're capable of progress, things will change, maybe only an inch at a time. But those inches pile up, in the nicest way. That's what I most wish you, Hops: lots of love and courage and support for this trip you've already started. And you've got the very best asset: Hops!
hugs,
LoH
PS- there's another E. Roosevelt quote I like, we have it on a fridge magnet: "You must do the thing you think you cannot do."
-
LoH:
trying that hard can teach you a lot about yourself. Even if the other person needs space at times. Sooner or later, so long as they're capable of progress, things will change, maybe only an inch at a time. But those inches pile up, in the nicest way.
Thanks so much, LoH. I've got to change, too. But I can report that after the summing-up email I wrote my D (90% love and support, 10% asserting myself, asking for what I need) I have been able to NOT contact her again. I think this is respectful of her obvious need for distance right now. I don't like it, but I'd rather do this than have her feel that our only interactions are out of obligation. It feels wrong to me to have NO sense of obligation to a parent who has tried their best to love and raise you and has never abused you. But maybe that's a generational thing that seems to be changing. At any rate, I have accepted that I can't force it. And if I set her free, maybe she will come back of her own accord. I think she will. I do have to curb my dependency, and that may force me to do some much-needed personal growth I"ve been neglecting.
Plucky, these things are such an enormous gift. I can't thank you adequately (but thank you for saying thanks is voluntary here! I just want to this time for each person because I'm so overwhelmed by the support and caring...it's brought me tears of relief.):
Maybe coming from your childhood or a marriage is that fear of losing the love of your loved one by making a mistake. A small mistake. And this fear had to be confronted every day. And you had to live with stress and on eggshells.
Yes. Time to let that go.
But a normal relationship is not destroyed by a single act of, what at worst might have been thoughtlessness. You cannot possibly destroy the entire relationship with your daughter just by making that sort of comment.
I needed badly to hear this. And this is incredibly insightful and important:
remember that whatever you do, you are still teaching her. If you desperately hound her to reassure you that she still loves you, she is learning that behaviour too. Just think where and when it might come out.
Thank you so much, Plucky.
Moon, thank you:
a little not holding on to tight right now would be good for your daughter to see strength in you.So many times gentleness is taken for weakness
Your whole heart helps me heal mine. Thank you for your amazingly loving spirit.
(((((MS))))) --hugs back!
Mum, you are so wise as ever:
You can only take care of "your side of the street". What she does on her side, is up to her. Yes, letting go of wanting...anything....something different.....is key in getting free of this fear. You won't die without her approval, nor will she die without yours.
Funny how the desperation (added to my underlying anxiety tendencies) really can feel like my emotional survival is at stake. But you're right, nobody's going to die. Thanks. I'm breeaaaaathing.
Hi Beth:
I think you need to talk to her about this NOW. You should say you have been thinking about it and you would really like to know if she is having problems with it and if you can help her.
Thanks for this. I really don't think I can approach her about her eating issues now. That's what I did a few years ago, and since that time I believe any purging is over. She's pudgy, and I don't believe she is doing it any more. Hasn't for the last two years, I believe. Since she quit smoking I think she's living (and eating) much more healthily. She does have IBS, and I think her stress issues happen for her with her stomach (as mine do with my chest, and other have headaches, etc.) But I think she just focuses on that area of her body, and that's how her anxiety shows. I might be wrong, but I don't believe she is bulimic now. (And don't forget, that's what she raged about--so she would not be receptive to discussing it with me if she were.) As you say, I can't control or force her to help herself. I've pushed therapy so hard it may have backfired, sent her tons of links to local resources, offered to pay for therapy, etc. She knows she can do it if she wants to. And for now, I have given the message that I'm so longer "bailing her out" financially. I said I would pay the small fees involved in her graduate school applications and testing, but that's it.
Hi Write, you said you had neither advice nor wisdom but I thank you for both in abundance:
You can't make her more mature, you can't make her appreciate the parts of herself which she needs to change, she'll only discover that in time ( as you have, as I have )
You can however keep loving her whilst working on stuff you feel you need to eg boundaries or assertiveness or whatever
And especially:
The best thing you can do is make a good, happy life for yourself, and be pleased to see her & share it with her when she visits.
I need to choose happiness. And remember to re-choose it. And choose it again. And again.
Thank you.
All of you. This has been caring that goes to the core of me, and I can't express how grateful I am to have found this board, and what comfort it is amid panic or pain to be able to reach out here. And then be so embraced. Unbelievable...but I think I'll believe it!
Much love,
Hops
-
Keep the image of her as open and warm in your head and heart while you let her figure it out. Of course she will come back to you...you have never lost her, just as you have never owned her... You loved her/love her. That's enough. And it's enough for you right now to know that. (((((((((((((Hops))))))))))))))) Don't worry (if you are)that you and she will become your mother and you. Not going to happen. Let that go.
-
Mum, WOW.
Don't worry (if you are)that you and she will become your mother and you. Not going to happen. Let that go.
What an incredibly perceptive thing to notice.
I did not know that I was. But when I read your insight it went Bang!
(In a good way.)
thanks thanks!
(((Mum))))
Hops
-
I'm not sure where that came from either, Hops. Someimtes I think I just channel energy or something...it's wierd. (You have probably noticed I am not all that smart all the time.)
I'm glad it meant something to you, though, so I guess that's where it came from (from you!) You see, I am not all that wise by myself...it's collective wisdom...I can't take credit for it (I'm referring to the kind words you said about my wisdom on another occassion).
-
Hi Hops,
It is nice to be back as I have been traveling for some time. I am sorry to see this post from you, though. Dadgummit, anyway. These relationships (mother/daughter and father/son) are so tough. We live such complicated lives.
Since I am drawing on such little history, it is hard to guess what may be bothering your daughter. However, 25 is still a very young age and she may still be figuring out much about herself, her life, you and yours, and how all these things fit together. Perhaps this is some attempt at atonomy?
You are pondering a couple of responses. Since your gift is in your words, would a note or poem of sorts be appropriate?
ANewSheriff
-
Hi, ANS, and thanks...
Actually I did write her last Thursday, and I am not calling or writing until she initiates. I am surprised that I'm at peace about it, but I really am. Below is some of what I sent her:
I am extremely sorry that I made such an insensitive remark when you were here. It just popped out, and I do regret it. I do not ever want to hurt you, rub your nose in anything or replay old misunderstandings. I'm sorry that it happened but I will make mistakes. I hope you'll forgive me. I'll forgive you, always.
I have been thinking and realize that all I can control is how I choose to treat you, and telling you how I feel. I love you very much. I am so proud of you. I have enormous respect for your hard work and determination. You have accomplished so much, and I hope you feel it.
I am in your corner whatever's happening and whatever you decide to do. I will always be here for you. I hope you'll share now and then what you're thinking of. It's hard to shuffle so many scenarios, isn't it?
I would love to hear from you more often. I don't need a response to "info & articles" messages, just the personal ones. I've been feeling lately as though you seem interested only when you want something. That hurt. I'll keep you posted on Grandma--I'd love it if you'd sometimes ask how I am too....
I want to treat you with a new level of adult respect and courtesy, and that is how I also want to be treated. Every single parent and child go through this passage, sometimes it flows and sometimes it's work. But it's worth it. I know we can create a good adult relationship. Respect and caring are a two-way street, and I'm totally committed to this. I also enjoy your company as ever. Nobody else really gets what's goofy. I love your wit and your mind and your affection.
You are my favorite human (and menagerie). Next time I'm down...(then I asked her to suggest a wknd that's good for her and I don't care if it's summer or fall, etc.)
She hasn't responded but I wasn't and am not expecting anything. It was probably a little too gushy but I am at peace with it. What may communicate more strength is my not obsessing over her response now...and surprisingly, I'm not. I did my best to communicate what I needed to, and in staying quiet while she takes her time, I hope I'll be giving her the space she needs to grow. My old narcissistic "guru" psychologist friend from work actually showed me again (over the phone...he's moved away) why I do appreciate him. I told him about it all and he was very supportive and perceptive. His blunt talk about her--and me--was strengthening. (I'm happy I don't interact with him every day any more, or in the workplace, but I see why I valued him.) He actually thinks she needs to sort of "hit bottom" in her own life in a way, and that my task is not to get hooked in again. He feels the question she asked me, when we were lolling in my room, was unconciously on her part...a set-up. My response may have hurt her, but on some level he thinks she wants to fight with me, because as long as she can blame me for everything, she doesn't have to face herself. So...to not allow her to be brutal with me, or to use me for money, is actually helping her "hit bottom" in a sense. He thinks I should stay neutral and unhooked when she does get in touch. That if she is hysterical or all seething about something, I need to stay neutral and NOT tell her what to do, just that I will support her in whatever she chooses.
It helped. I am not sure about all of why....but I know I feel I've done the best I can.
Thanks for asking...
Hops
-
Hi Hops,
You sound very at peace. Your letter is loving and honest and it's no wonder you feel satisfied with it. You have done a great job. How interesting that your old "N" guru buddy has so much insight. There is goodness in some of these people, maybe all of them, if only one knows how to approach them without losing oneself completely. Someone else here, maybe LoH, said there is the same amount of love for Ns, but just from farther away.
It seems like you're working your way up the staircase and now there's some satisfaction along the way too.
Just a wonderful letter, Hops.
Pennyplant
-
Hops,
Thank you for sharing that most personal and very heartfelt letter. It was well written (no surprise) and I can see why you are at peace after sending this. Your psychiatrist friend makes some wise assumptions. If your history is that your daughter scapegoats you for all of her life's ills, then whatever happened may very well have been a subconscious or even semi subconscious set-up.
If she is angry and resentful she is looking for an outlet for those emotions. As Forrest Gump said, "Sometimes there just aren't enough rocks." She knows you are safe, but you have grown a lot emotionally and spiritually so perhaps you are not as easy a target as you may have been in years past. Perhaps she came at you through the back door - mentally setting up a scenario which would evoke a response so she could justify her anger and confirm her core beliefs.
Whatever the cause, she is fiercely loved by her mother and she will be okay. Growing up is a very difficult process. My hunch is that she just needs some time.
ANewSheriff
-
Penny, ANS, TT--
thank you soooo much.
It was a deep comfort to read your posts about my letter to her.
I hesitated to post it and then thought, they knowit all, why not share how I tried to resolve it?
I'm glad I did.
Support is just a ... word. But I can feel it like strong arms.
thanks again, and love to you...you strong wise women.
Hops
-
Hops ,
I am sure your daughter will reconnect.
I have had time with my oldest girl where she just was not going to speak to me .
Then before you knew it we reconnected.But it was hurtful .
My oldest daughter finds my gentleness a weakness at times.
But again when I speak to her in what penelopebean calls gentle strength she does respect that.
Its has taken time .Your daughter is younger than my oldest so I am sure just a little time is needed.
When you said in your letter 'I am in your corner " they are words of such protection .
Much Love,
Moon
-
THANK you, Moon! ((((((Moon))))
PP: What's interesting about my N-pyschologist friend is that most of his Nism seems very unconscious, but he is also very smart and knows (and says) that he has a very N-istic side. What allows me to keep valuing him as a friend is that he has honestly done fierce battle with this part of himself.
Then again, at times listening to him about that is funny (you supply the accent): "Now, I am going to acquire humility. There, I have done that so fast! Excellent, I am completely happy!" :)
That's an exaggeration...but anyway, there's a good person in him. He's both greedy and generous, selfish and sweet. I do find it MUCH easier to be long-distance friends though!
Hops
-
Hops, thank you for sharing your beautiful letter, and the trust in that.
It helped. I am not sure about all of why....but I know I feel I've done the best I can.
That sounds like peace? Hope that's how it feels, and there's less rattling in your good heart.
imho, you sent her a gift, one long on courage and vulnerability. As much as this estrangement hurts, you still put yourself on the line and reached out. At the risk of sounding too gushy (good company there :) ), I think you're amazing, Hops. Whatever place your D. is in, I think that letter will give her strength to fall back on, even if she can't respond yet. You told her exactly where your heart is.
Blessings to (((mother and daughter))),
LoH
-
After I managed to keep my mouth shut for a week or so, my D sent us an envelope of pictures from her trip with nice captions on the back... :D That's contact!
Ordered a book on dealing w/a prickly young adult daughter, and one of the first "rules" it talks about is not to pepper them with questions about their lives. MOI? :shock:
(Yes.... :oops: )
Will report more when I've read it (I read what I could on Amazon).
Anyway, it feels good. Haven't been obsessing and feel so much better since I'm not crowding her.
My brother is here and so far things are peaceful. I've let go trying to control anything and am just being pleasant and busy. Taking advantage of his visit to run around and do some self-care, just for fun kinds of things. Got my hair cut, did someting stupid to my eyebrows and painted my fingernails. (Unfortunately, every time I do that it looks like a 4 y/o just stuck her fingers in a pot of paint, but it's fun anyway).
And I got flirted with at church this morning! :shock: Guy nearly herniated himself trying to find out if I was wearing a wedding ring! Holy moly.
Happy Sunday, all. I'm off to see A Prairie Home Companion with my friend who's got metastasized ovarian cancer and her partner. It will be good to laugh together, as heck, what are the alternatives.
Hugs,
Hops
-
Hi Hops.... I'm so happy for you. I think things are going to work out well for you and your daughter. I remember you were worried about the visit from your brother and I'm glad you're having a good time doing some fun things for yourself while he's here.
Hey.... do you know him? :D Did you flirt back? :D Was he nice looking? :D
-
Thanks, MS! It really has been fun to be nice to myself.
I don't know the flirter, and I'm not sure I flirted back very well, I'm rusty. But I'll see him again so that's nice. He had beautiful eyes, and seemed quite open. Described himself as a loner... It wasn't a long chat though so I ain't gonna fantasize. We shall see.
I did run into my exNbf today for the first time since our relationship ended a year and a half ago. I felt so clear about not being interested in him in the slightest. He waved me over so I was polite and said hello and inquired about his children. He tried to turn on the charm and it felt like BS. Having it feel like BS felt good!
Funny, Nthings I didn't notice before. I simply asked, how are your children doing? And he said oh, fine. Well they're doing spectacularly well, actually. He does this thing where he uses a studied tone of awe in his voice...when he talks about someone else's reponse to his work or when he talks about his kids...but it's a sort of they-are-so-amazing-it's-just-beyond-dazzling kind of thing, rather than straightforward pride and love. There's no warmth in it.
Brrrrrrrr. I do not like him and even though we know people in common I do not want anything more to do with him, ever. I haven't been in a relationship since him. I think that's good, that he was my last N...but I'm still a little bitter (catch myself saying, "that bastard" now and then).
But I'm ON MY WAY to indifference! I actually felt good that I handled myself as I did, no grinning, no fake pleasure. I was not glad to see him and I didn't act like I was. Sounds supid, but that's an achievement for me. I overrode the social programming, and I tell you, sugah, that's raht thick down heah!
Hops
-
Well, if he nearly herniated himself trying to find out if you had a wedding ring on you probably don't have to worry too much about your flirting skills :wink:
But I'm ON MY WAY to indifference! I actually felt good that I handled myself as I did, no grinning, no fake pleasure. I was not glad to see him and I didn't act like I was. Sounds supid, but that's an achievement for me
Doesn't sound stupid to me Hops
I tell you, sugah, that's raht thick down heah!
Sounds lik southern tawk to me.. Mammaw's from the south... good food... slow pace... fine neighbors... I love the south!
-
Hoppy,
you go girl, with your indifferent self! Indifference is the destination. And you have arrived.
Mud - (Yes I have been supping with the pigs. My two little piglets.) I have so little time, I cannot devote it to coming up on the board very much, though I would like to. I see so many wonderful new voices up here, as well as old ones, so far I don't seem to be needed! Still very grateful this place exists, and for the people whose screen names and hearts I have come to know. And for the shout outs now and then, that let me know I have not been forgotten. (snif!)
a hijacking
Plucky
-
Heck no, you're not forgotten.
I've been missing you, Plucky. (But you never felt GONE gone.)
I'm not that indifferent!
You stay well and the piglets :) too...
there'll be another time when you have time to chat.
(((Plucky))))
Hops
-
Hi,
Ordered a book on dealing with a difficult adult daughter. The author's purpose is to be an advocate for mothers, because she feels that in the last 2 generations, there's been a huge loss of respect...and an enormous amount of blame on mothers. (Not abusive, neglectful or addicted mothers...she specifically says her book is not aimed at them). Just mothers in general, who make a lot of mistakes but who can be devastated by an adult daughter who is either dependent, disastisfied, or distant. She feels the blame-your-mother syndrome began with psychoanalysis, permeates self-help literature, and she found in her decades as a T that almost every daughter indicated that at its core, everything in her life that went wrong was her mother's fault. (Can't quite hear myself because of the pot banging the kettle in between my ears.) The author maintains that this isn't true or fair. Anyway, I mainly bought the book because it promised a method for reconnecting.
It's excruciating reading. I realize that although she WAS dependent and dissatisfied, what my daughter is now is distant. When she emailed me from Europe in a fury saying she wanted "only a superficial relationship" with me, I was blindsided. I knew I had offended her, but I had explained myself as best I could and sincerely asked her forgiveness. She told me when she was here that she's not like me, she's very slow to forgive. And then I affronted her again.
I have done my job of leaving her alone, and I was delighted when she did send pictures. But as time goes on...I have such a sick-at-heart feeling that I've been permanently discarded, and maybe I'm just too witless to see it yet.
It may not be true. I am feeling rejection in a lot of areas in my life, and fear, and isolation. (Her stepmother tossed me aside after a 6-year friendship--a bond formed at my D's father's deathbed. That upset my D, so last week I'd wrote a nice email to the stepmom, telling her I'd learned from her withdrawal, and wasn't asking for daily contact at all, but I wondered if we could lunch. I was just going to suggest once or twice a year but didn't get the chance. And particularly for the sake of my D, so the tenuous feeling of family she had with us being friendly wouldn't be destroyed. Anyway, she wrote back saying, "I'd rather not." I don't think she knew I want it most for my D, who was truly upset.
The common thread in both these rejections is that I am emotive, sentimental, affectionate, and...I don't want to type this...needy. Both my D and her stepMom are not emotive and don't like feeling vulnerable. Anyway, I'm much more conscious of not being clingy with friends, now that I realize some people may just feel overwhelmed by that.
I miss my D so much and the last time I heard her voice, it was dripping with dislike.
That's painful. I know what's wrong with being enmeshed and I don't want that back ever. I am just grieving. I feel as though D won't give me a chance to co-create a middle ground. I was going to absolutely leave her alone for as long as it takes, but the author of this book says no, keep calling (just once a week) and sending the occasional card. With no requests or drama, just saying hi, and I love you, and would love to hear from you.
I'm all over the emotional map here. I know my office move, which was back into the space I was in when I was first stunned by the news my job was disappearing soon...has triggered some of this. (It's a feeling like, if you can find all this money for research, aren't I valuable enough to find enough funds to help me survive? Especially when I'm doing such good work.)
Anyway, rough day.
Good news...my brother leaves today and his visit, although tiring (for me and NMom too, who startled us with a snarky remark about her "routine being all messed up")--went peacefully. I am glad about that.
love to all,
A Sad Hops
-
(((((((((((Hoppy))))))))))))
You are an amazing person… do you know that? I read this in awe… why? Because of the effort you are prepared to go to. How many Mum’s would go to the effort of ordering a book and trying to learn to be different? I don’t think there would be many.
You may be sad at the moment, and you may be grieving for the relationship you had with your daughter, however you have changed with the way you are with her and she sent you photos. Just this little thing, for me, shows that what you are doing is working and over time I do feel this part will improve. Baby steps remember….
We’ve had a lady here who was made redundant… she left last Monday after working here for 11 years. She said to me, I can’t take this personally, this is about the role, not a reflection on me. She is in her late forties.
Take care amazing Hoppy
Love H&H xx
-
Hi H&H,
You are so kind to me, and thank you so much for the baby steps reminder.
(I do tend to panic.)
If I'm made redundant I won't take it personally for too long...but I sure don't want to be jobless!
This weekend I'm just going to dig in and send out a blizzard of letters and calls.
Maybe even a mass email to every single person I know in town. Hmm! Hadn't thought of that before, but I think I will! I have very impressive letters of reference I could attach...along with my resume.
Does that sound insane, or creative? (I have only 10 weeks left before all the insurance, etc., vanishes. So it's time for ... thinking outside the box). Do any of you who hire people think that would be a ghastly thing to do?
Opinions? I'd be grateful!
Hops
-
Well, I'm not much of a job searcher and have no hiring experience. But I have heard many, many times that the best jobs are found by word of mouth. I do think you should tell every single person you know that you are looking and be prepared to tell them what you are good at. When I was looking I mentioned it to some acquaintances. One of them offered me a job on the spot as a substitute teacher because I have a degree. I don't want to be a teacher so I declined, also thinking it had to be a rough job if she would make such as offer on the spot. But she was serious so if I had been of that temperament, I'd have had a job that night. Another was a friend from school and she asked me what my experience was. I was not prepared for a serious inquiry like that, not really in self-confident job search mode, and pretty well fumbled the answer. If I'd been on the ball I think she might have at least interviewed me. I have also lost job opportunities to people who were hired because they knew somebody and stepped ahead of me in line. So, that word of mouth thing rings true to me. And at this point you've got nothing to lose!!!
Go for it, Hopsy!
Pennyplant
-
Thanks, Penny.
I'm going to do it!!!!
I appreciate the moral support very much.
Hops
-
Hiya (((((Hoppy))))
Yes definitely.... Did you know that 80% of jobs aren't advertised? I read that at the weekend. I have to say it does go on "who you know" more than "what you know" if that makes any sense though what you know can back up who you know.
When I look at what is happening with our business, I try and look at it this way.... to go through an agency means we're hit with a 20% (sometimes 25%) cost of the years salary. To hire some people this can hit us with a cost of £30,000. However where we work we have a recruitment bounty, so our employees can get up to £3000. And if it's an external candidate who has applied to us directly through the website there are no costs. No external costs means if you aren't happy with the salary offered, it's your bargaining tool!
So my advice would be talk to who you are working with. Do you work with any external customers/suppliers? These people will have worked with you previously, know your work is good and know your value. If you are talking to customers/suppliers anyway, sometimes all you have to do is say, I'm not sure if you're aware, but this role will be no more shortly... do you know of any other positions going? Do you know of any organisations who will be looking to recruit shortly?
Go for it girl!
Love H&H xx
-
You're so right H&H...thanks for the boost.
The job I sent in an appl. for today was referred to me by a friend who's just retired from the Foreign Service (I went to school with his wife). Anyway, she and I had lunch and she must've told him how concerned I am.
Keep your fingers crossed for this one! No idea what teh competition is, but I'm sure...huge.
Meanwhile, I still have heard no word from my D since she sent the photos...mostly hanging in there and not despairing. Not pestering her with messages. Sent her one about a possible summer plan.
Siggghhh. I hate being loathed and not forgiven. Jeez.
Hops
-
Good grief, Hops... you win the prize for reading between the non-existant lines :o Your daughter doesn't loathe you or harbor unforgiveness toward you... she's just a bratty 20-something. I have one of those, as well, and this too shall pass!
With love,
Hope