Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Anonymous on February 01, 2004, 07:38:45 PM
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did anyone else grow up in a community where it was typical for men to use domestic violence to get their own way, and where women were second-class citizens who could not truly grow, change or achieve within the community, until they left?
The men from my home town fit all the criteria of narcissism, yet it seems a cultural rather than personal phenomenon.
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Do you live in the Deep South of the US by any chance? I grew up there and I can totally relate. I even tried to open up to my sister about what's going on and she totally minimized it. Yes, I come from a male-loving family.
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I come from a male loving family--but mostly because my N Dad is the larger ass of the two and was always putting down my N Mom, belittling her, and telling jokes at her expense. Anything women might want to discuss was seen as "insignifant" compared to what the males wanted to talk about.
We also always assumed my Mom wouldn't work (despite several degrees) but later I realized my Dad Begged her not too, that's how insecure he was.
I didn't even realize how abnormal this all was until I got away--far away, in years and distance. I realized after going to college and getting a job in a male dominated field (Engineering) that people respected me Even Though I'm a woman. It's great to get that validation and makes my stupid family (Dad and often brothers) seem immature and way behind the times.
bean
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I immediately thought "deep south"....wow, seemed like a stereotype, but if you grew up there....
I grew up in the Northeast in a hotbed of women's right's activities and went to college in the thick of the ERA and feminist movements.
I am now appalled at the regression that seems to be happening, culturally in America in general: just watch any "makeover" show!! I currently live in the southwest and high school seniors (especially in the affluent school district I teach in) regularly get plastic surgery gifts (usually breast enlargement) for graduation from thier parents! I guess that sends a message to your daughter, eh? (become a trophy wife, sweetie...we know what's important)
Geeez: It was enough for us to get braces when we were kids!! I am praying that the northeast is a little less "Barbie" influenced still.
Ok, I got off topic. I do think it is cultural. I teach where we have many families from other countries moving in, and I see a few new families each year where the girls are well behaved, kind and studious (and almost too shy) and the brothers are unruly, rude and lazy. They figure it out after a while (like that doesn't cut it here) but I still see the boys throw their backpacks at the mothers after school (and they carry them!) and then run off out of control.
Hate to pin it on any culture in particular, though.....we've all got our demons in the equality department!
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I don't think this culture loves men either. We just try to kill off their spirits when they're little in different ways.
The hard-right religious stuff is happening right along with the retro stuff for both genders. I think there's a connection between fundamentalist religion and sexual exploitation...
But then this country (U.S. anyway) came from the Puritans, so we've still got that hysteria about sexuality buried just a few generations back. It's still in us but we fear it, I think it erupts in decadence. Then throw in billions of dollars to be made off those appetites by media...and poor kids.
My two-bit treatise.
Hopalong
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did anyone else grow up in a community where it was typical for men to use domestic violence to get their own way, and where women were second-class citizens who could not truly grow, change or achieve within the community, until they left?
The men from my home town fit all the criteria of narcissism, yet it seems a cultural rather than personal phenomenon.
Hi Anonymous
Quick question. I'm intruiged! :?: How did you post your message without having to display an email address? I'm curious and trying it myself now...nope it didn't work. All I got was:
The following error or errors occurred while posting this message:
No email address was provided.
An invalid email address was given.
You're clever! :D How do you do it please? Portia
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Duh! :roll: Hahahaha :D that’s funny!
The first post is dated two years ago, 2004, that’s how come the email doesn’t show. (Old style board stuff.)
Movinon you’ve really been through the archives :D
I’m telling myself to check little things like dates (facts? reality?) before I go asking questions. Or maybe just to say:
apologies all, as you were, question answered. :D P
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It takes so much more courage to apologise than delete a post.
It's great to choose to laugh at yourself, rather than pick one of so many other choices available.
Way to go Portia! Seriously adult stuff happening there.
Re: This topic
I didn't grow up in such a town and I just wanted to say, Annon:
That must have been very difficult for you. I mean...how do you know what "normal" is?......when every one is living the same what must feel like.....messed up "normal".... which must feel very bad and wrong and awful. I hope you have gotten away from there!
Did you find yourself repeating that scenario? Did you marry someone domestically violent who treats/treated you like a second class citizen?
(((((((Annon)))))))
Sela
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I think a lot of communities are abusive, we already discussed churches, but occupational culture/ workplace bullying and cliques are just as bad + I've seen people get chased of websites/message boards.
I'm getting to the point I don't want to belong to almost anything...
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Hiya Sela :D
It takes so much more courage to apologise than delete a post.
I wasn’t going to delete…..and if I was….I couldn’t I don’t think? Having not logged in? I didn’t log-in to ask that *pant pant* highly-triggered board-vigilant red-flag question! :oops: :roll: Haha! :mrgreen: Noooo, I was too quick off the mark. Reacting instead of pondering. And also actually curious too. I had to make a cup of coffee (the 40 minute cup of coffee) before it occurred to me: :idea: dates, check the date. Hahahaha yes I laughed. *sigh* *roll over* *tickle tummy please* :D
What caused you to think of deleting posts?
It's great to choose to laugh at yourself, rather than pick one of so many other choices available.
I do laugh at myself, all the time, faster than before. And I’m not going to take responsibility for things that aren’t mine. 8)
Way to go Portia! Seriously adult stuff happening there.
You know me so well. You know all the crap attached to two little posts.
Thank you ((((((Sela))))))
Hiya Write
I'm getting to the point I don't want to belong to almost anything...
Me too! :D But wait……..I’ve nearly always been like that.
Does not wanting to belong signify a strengthening of our own beliefs and values?
I agree in as much as I see many groups as (potentially and actually) abusive.
I prefer individuals to groups. I like talking and listening to individuals. I don’t like groups or group-think (contradiction in terms?). There’s a good quote about groups…about the group thinking being at the lowest intelligence level versus the intelligence (or is it *conscience*?) of the individual…???? Can’t remember it right now.
((((((write))))))
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Does not wanting to belong signify a strengthening of our own beliefs and values?
I think in my case I've just given up and become a recluse!
But that's ok, maybe in my 40s I shall rise like a phoenix from the ashes...!!!
When we first moved here I volunteered at school- for about 3 weeks until I'd heard enough gossip and back-stabbing to realise the women I was talking to might sit in church every week, but they weren't very Christian.
At least I am getting good at spotting toxic environments now, and leaving them quickly!
(((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((())))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
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Oh--holy cow you guys.....SO many things to relate to!!
I grew up in a male dominated community which was dominated by a male dominated religion. Always hated it. And the women....eeeeew-----yup, sitting in church every week and playing nice just so they can stab each other in the back with a smile pasted on their face! Don't even get me started on the sick men!!
Still very much entrenched in the same community, but as I have made a stand to be different and hence become a loner, I actually feel pretty good about me. I feel I am thinking for myself and that is always most important. That goes for standing up to family as well. (I have actually had people at my door to harrass me about why I don't come to their church anymore---actual demands to go and bullies with intimidation techniques. ) Men, of course. Since they lead us women. Sick. They just use God to get their way. Obedience. Mind games instead of violence for the most part.
I can handle the rejection for now, but I worry lots about my kids. They get shut out too and that is not fair for them.
I am systematically finding myself a loner by standing up against the bull****!! (Sorry) And finding I CAN think for myself and I am getting stronger in spirit, I think. So, yeah, I think you are right!!
I think, I think, I think......WOW!
I think...therefore, I AM------ALONE. Better stop now, I am getting weird.
Take care ALL!
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I can handle the rejection for now, but I worry lots about my kids. They get shut out too and that is not fair for them.
oh G_d, me too....he has no friends here, even my friend's children aren't always friendly with him!
The parents make the kids mean here somehow.
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In "the Power of Intention", Wayne Dyer talks about how he has become less "social" throughout the years due to his more reflective way of life. (or it might be another book of his....duh)
I remember back in high school, I wrote and illustrated a small hand bound "book" instead of writing a paper (they didn't know WHAT to make of me!) in a philosophy or religion class. The basis of the book was about how relationships were such a pain (much more artistically writtten mind you) that I was becoming an introvert because of it. (which I was not really)
Another high school thing just came up: I remember that one girl, who I admired very much, wrote in my high school yearbook that I was the "individual's individual". I was always happy someone noticed that although I was friends with the jocks (as a swimmer) and the artistic types (as an artist), I never quite fit in to any group to the point of losing my own identity. Maybe I had more of my s**t together as a teenager than I did later on!!
So even though I lost myself to a couple of a**h***s for a bit, I guess I can come back to that girl any time I want. ( I am now sooo much more like that than I have been in a long time...maybe I kinda liked myself back then or something).
My second husband was SUPER social, to the point of NEVER being alone, never being without a drink in his hand (well, that explains most of it) and I had my fill of trashy gossip, stupid "must make an appearance" parties and empty "psuedo-intellectual bull" from drunk artists to last a lifetime! Life on the surface is soooo.....SHALLOW. That must be why they they drink all the time.
So now: Although I am friendly with many, I mostly hang out with myself, my family, my dogs and just a few other people, and that's it.
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Mum, you sound really healthy. Your description of your unfrantic conncectedness has a wonderful solidity and peacefulness about it.
I think a lot of people's differences might also be personality type.
I'm a strong Extrovert (despite the repressive dogma of childhood religion, had a lot of warm associations with kindly people and potlucks...kind potlucks?) so bonding with my church does bring me happiness. As I will be there for a lot of them as they get older, they likewise will be here for me. We have a wonderful network...nobody endures sickness or crisis alone, we keep track of each other in a good way. I first joined 25 years ago...it comforts me to see the same people, now getting old, that I first knew when they were my age...gives me a wheel of life context I couldn't get in my own splintered family. For me, it's like the good things about family without the toxins.
I like the way you know who you are, and admire even more that you value yourself for it.
I admire it a lot, since I gather it was hard won.
Hopalong
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Thanks, Hoppy, A few years back I would not thank you, I would disagree with you. I would tell you I am disorganized and scattered, and although I am all those things on the "outside", on the inside I am just fine with who I am. And it was hard won.
Your description of your church "family" describes exactly why I so look forward to moving back "home" soon, to my huge family and circle of friends. I will miss my colleagues, but no doubt will find new work friends...but the connected ones have always been my siblings, really.
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unfortunately, Jacmac, I am as serious as a heart attack!
I cannot even begin to tell you how many mothers of my students have had plastic surgery...
Many of them ARE the idle rich. Trophy wives with no brains or self concept. We call them the stepford wives. Of course there are plenty of great, down to earth parents, but in this "wanna be L. A." area, "reality" shows like "the Swan" and "Extreme Makeover" are not a shock at all. These people live it.
I find it interesting that you should have come to the opinions you have from the culture you come from and yet:
my ex's mother truly thinks I am a total B**** for leaving her son over something like cheating (which of course was my fault...."had I kept him happy, he would not have strayed!!"). Not too far a stretch from what you are telling me.
And the stories we hear about female Chinese babies being left....as the quota for children must be kept to, and boys are so much more useful and all...a sad but accepted reality for rural China, I understand.
OK< THAT"S what's wrong with the world!!! The whole man preferred crap......Don't get me started.....
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Write:
I think in my case I've just given up and become a recluse!
It is hard work! Be a recluse when you want to, and not when you don’t?
But that's ok, maybe in my 40s I shall rise like a phoenix from the ashes...!!!
Yeah! I think it’s only possible once you have reached your 40s. Not usually possible before that (too busy doing and getting)?
When we first moved here I volunteered at school- for about 3 weeks until I'd heard enough gossip and back-stabbing to realise the women I was talking to might sit in church every week, but they weren't very Christian.
At least I am getting good at spotting toxic environments now, and leaving them quickly!
If you can’t change them …. (don’t join them)! Sorry write. :( So many people are so childlike. If the women were like that, what chance for the children I wonder.
I couldn’t find that quotation (was hoping you knew it). So here are some others.
The natural tendency of the individual in a group is to forfeit his or her ethical judgment to the leader, and that this tendency should be resisted. M. Scott Peck
"The human psyche has two great sicknesses: the urge to carry vendetta across generations, and the tendency to fasten group labels on people rather than see them as individuals." Richard Dawkins
Surrounded:
I think...therefore, I AM------ALONE. Better stop now, I am getting weird.
Not at all!!! :D I think therefore I am is my life code! And we are all alone in our heads. That’s just a fact….I think…I hope! Imagine if we weren’t. Scary.
Not weird at all. Perfectly clear and sane to me. That may not be such a comfort to you though! :P
Mum and Hop
I was chatting to my total Extravert stepmum on the phone. She said:
“So I went to this Learn Italian group and the people were so boring! The lecturer was hopeless….”
I said: “But if you want to learn Italian, how about taping the BBC learning zone programmes? They’re great for languages.” And she answered…..
“But I don’t want to learn Italian! I want to meet people!”
:shock: :shock: :shock:
(Sound of my brain about to explode in non-comprehending processing loop.)
That really showed me the innate difference between introverts and extraverts. I mean…where is the Objective or Achievement in ‘meeting people’????? As opposed to learning Italian??? Hahaha! Would you believe the two of us get on like a house on fire too? Except she likes to talk for the heck of it whereas I like to get to new theories and conclusions. She’s probably a Perceiver too, not a fat Judger like me. Hmm, could well be.
Jac
When my aunt heard I had left my children's father because he cheated on me, her response was, You left him for THAT?
Well, my Dad I guess has a few patriarchal beliefs. When a bloke cheated on me, he suggested that some men do these things and maybe I should give him another chance. So basically men are allowed to cheat but if women make decisions for themselves they’re told to reconsider? Give me a break. :x
It’s worse in some ways when other women collude to uphold the patriarchal nonsense. It’s like self-hatred?
Great thread Movinon! :D
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Jac, holy moley - whatever that expression means, but - wow. You gotta get this stuff out.
I know now it reminds me of my mother, and what I view to be her betrayal of me with my father
It WAS a betrayal if your needs were treated as second to your father’s. That’s what I think. If women have kids, then the kids become number one. But lots of women have children and are little more than children themselves. So – it’s not easy and I couldn’t legislate for it. Except to have licences to have children! But if you felt betrayed by your mother, then you were betrayed. Your experience is what counts.
but I am yet and still amazed that woman will rip each other to shreds over a man.
The female of the species….. can be pretty dumb at times. Primitive. It’s all about competition and survival of individual genes. Sod sisterhood! Haha. Some so-called feminists really get up my nose, especially those who attack other women and get all flirty and/or competitive with men. I’m talking about Germaine Greer!
I remember when I was involved with this married man, ........Well, I am a spiritual person, and I know this is happening for a reason. I hope that we can all grow and mature from this."
The next day she filed a police report against me for harassment.
I love the paragraph break before the killer line!!! Love it! If you hadn’t written it so well, it wouldn’t funny. But you make it like dead-pan tragic-comedy. That's talent.
But it’s not funny I know. I had an affair with a married man. The women in this scenario will often go after the ‘other woman’ instead of facing the real source of their pain/anger/loss of pride/whatever. It’s the easy option. My H went for the ‘other man’ instead of me! I kept asking him – why not attack me instead? I’m the one who’s at fault here. Weird non-coping strategies. Very primitive stuff.
Do you think your mom blamed you for what your dad did to you? Is that how it felt to you? I felt to blame for all my parents’ crap.
And about kids. I don’t have any. But I do feel almost over-zealously committed (in my mind) to child protection. And I wonder if I think things are worse than they really are? Then I look around me and think, nope, they really are that bad. We need people to stand up for children and their rights because they can’t do it for themselves.
PS. "Well, I am a spiritual person, and I know this is happening for a reason. I hope that we can all grow and mature from this."
BULLSHIT and BOLLOCKS!!!!! :x Hahahahahaha :shock: :D hope you enjoyed that as much as I did. Some people. Some things just call out for expletives I'm afraid. :oops: :mrgreen:
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back again :D...I was a bit quick there...then I saw this little nugget:
She confessed that she always felt that her father went out of his way to make her illegitimate sister feel secure and happy, and she, consequently felt neglected.
haha! She admitted that she's married her father (so to speak)? And that if she can bring hubby back to heel, she'll be defeating her father and getting the attention she wanted? And in getting that police report in....she was getting back at her sister....making the illegitimate what it should be - illegal, putting it in the hands of the police...so she can have daddy all to herself. Good riddance.
Do you feel now - thank goodness that's as close as you got to that kind of very sick relationship?
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I've only had one short horrible experience but I believe some men want to set up an unhealthy competition between women in their lives ( maybe it's not gender specific either ) and get the women to fight it out on their behalf whilst mr conlict-avoidance ( for himself at least ) watches from the sidelines.
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Hi all:
I'm rushing around today like a chicken with her head cut off. Just time to read and post back to here re what you wrote Portia:
Reacting instead of pondering.
Yep. I do that too. Who doesn't? Then if we realize we've made an error.....what next?
Hahahahahahaha! Laughing at me now!! Didn't even notice that you hadn't logged in!
"Pay attention will ya!!!"
What caused you to think of deleting posts?
Well......I guess I was projecting. I was thinking....if I had posted what you posted, I might have just deleted it, once I'd seen my error. That's why it struck me as very adult and brave of you to.....use the mistake as a bit of sharing.....of learning...expressing. Admitting the mistake. Sharing / expressing of it and the learning of laughing, rather than......well.........you know about those little voices that want to do something else eh?
Like beat oneself up. Tell onself off. Press delete.
Hahahahaha again! Didn't realize 40 min had gone by before you reposted. Didn't look at the time/date myself!! Same mistake!! I didn't learn!! I need repetition! I have to learn by doing, I guess. Or something?? :roll:
You know me so well. You know all the crap attached to two little posts.
Thank you ((((((Sela))))))
Ya. I'm learning all the time too but not by your mistakes!! Have to make my own eh? Thanks for the hug!! It feels good.
Especially when I read some of the rest of the stuff in this thread!
The abuse!! It's abuse to treat women as lesser human beings!! The abusive cultures!! (and some neighbourhoods/places).
Ofcourse.....those cultures(etc) don't consider this stuff abusive eh? Except for those who are being abused!! The women!! Poor women. I feel so sorry for them. How do you begin to effect change in a culture (etc)??
Women have done it! A few at a time! But it's a huge big large massive struggle!! Takes years and years!
And talk about courage!!
I'm praying for those women today. I hope with all of my heart that little changes will start to happen......for the good.....for their good.
My mother always said: "It's a man's world. We've made some changes but it's still a man's world".
Right again, if you ask me. Just because we can vote and work and wear pants....doesn't make it all fair. And in some cultures......basic respect is still completely absent. Those women are still chattels.......slaves........toys.
(((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((those women)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
Even though they'll never know it. A cyber hug they'll never see or feel. From one person to another.
Not a toy person. :( :x :shock: :( :x :evil: :evil: :twisted: Just a person.
Sela
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Portia,
Glad I dug this one up from the archives!
Movinon
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Sela :D
And in some cultures......basic respect is still completely absent. Those women are still chattels.......slaves........toys.
Yep. And their daughters are sold to pay off the debt from the lower opium crop this year, last year, constant debt. Sold to whom, for what? Sold at ages when they are children, and so on. But of course young boys are also stolen to be made into brutal killers.
On the other hand, information and knowledge is now travelling around the globe faster and with less control (was Google right to offer a censored search to China? I guess it’s better than just saying ‘no’). Charities are amongst those daughters and sons, trying their best. There is hope! Mind you, we talk about being abusive to each other, what about our attitude to our only home? Big problems to sort out! I hope we do sort them out.
((((((Sela))))))
Movinon
Glad I dug this one up from the archives!
I’m really glad too, for several reasons. You helped me. Thank you.
Jacmac
((((((Jacmac))))))
You’ve really got me thinking (thank you). I’m posting but have lots more to say, coming up soon. Wanted to break this one up because it’s so long.
she didn't stay with men who cheated on her, but she did stay with my father, who abused her physically for years, and was still intimate with him even after he molested me.
She stayed with him because….he didn’t “cheat” on her? Other than by predating sexually on his daughter. So that was okay then. Pass me a sick bag.
She likes to say she doesn't understand women today because she'd leave a man in a heartbeat that didn't respect her
Sooo she believes that being beaten up and living with incest and child abuse is respect. Perhaps because the dirty washing stays inside the home? Perhaps the worst thing for your mom is being humiliated and shamed by the outside world. Okay I’m getting it.
Is that why you've never been married?
just to chat! I’ve never been married either. Didn’t see the point. It’s a legal contract and I haven’t seen a need for any legal contract with a man. If I did I think I'd go the legal route and have some document drawn up. Marriage is primarily about legal stuff, not love or respect. Apart from all the social conventions, social cohesion through the ‘family’ and so on. Love and respect happen between people, not because of some socially and legally sanctioned event. Shut up P. okay.
I thought I was the only one that thought this way. I always think about that!!!! Like my tenant upstairs and her infintile behavior, I think to myself, "My God, how can the children learn to deal with conflict in a mature way if their mother is a big baby?"
I think you think this way because (1) you naturally identify and empathise with children and (2) you’re a deeply good-hearted and thoughtful person and maybe there’s a (3) in perhaps it shows some hope for the future, belief in children, wanting to see beyond the immediate. ? what do you think?
but I am yet and still amazed that woman will rip each other to shreds over a man.
Yeah…..I now wonder which man they’re fighting over? I’ll never see this situation in the same light again! Women all competing for Daddy’s attention or women beating their sisters or mothers up? Wouldn’t it be odd if we could see all the people (in their heads), all the parents etc involved in the fighting? Mass riot!
she wouldn't even accept that he had lied to me about being married,
you didn’t even know he was married! Do you know how that exonerates you completely? (I knew mine was married! Tsk tsk what the heck was I up to? Well he did remind me devastatingly of my father. True. And weird.)
I thought the news that he had said she was dead would devastate her
It would have if she could have allowed herself to believe you. But we believe what we want to believe, or I guess, what we can bear to believe at any given time. I guess she couldn’t cope with that. Denial is a good preservation mechanism. After all she sees this guy as her Dad and her Dad can’t want her dead. Serious stuff.
If we were to work out, and things went well with us, would you consider moving in here with me (into his home ) and the children? I always think he had some heinous plans to get rid of her.
Did you meet his kids? Was any of what he said ever possible of happening? Or was he just talking hot-air? Maybe it was pure BS and if you’d have said yes, when, etc he would have run like hell?
she couldn't believe my lack of integrity
She saw you as wholly bad. She was unhinged! Nuts!
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Jac, there's so much here. Read and reply as and when, take it in chunks, whatever. I'll just get out my stuff and leave it okay?
But there's real fear here.
What’s the fear about?............?
months later I was arrested and spent the night in jail? This woman went to the precinct in tears. TEARS! She came in with phone records of the calls that I was making to her husband at their home
So they arrested you? Where were you at the time, at home, work? Trying to see the impact on you here.
we (she and I) spent half the night at the precinct battling it out.
How did this go….were you in an interview room together? Were the cops intervening between you?
Those events are incredible! So she schemes and gets her ‘evidence’ and works away in the background for months until she believes she has enough to put you away? Then she acts (and I mean like an actor), puts on the tears, pulls off her stunt. Revenge on her sister, big time (not that you’d know that, in the midst of this pile of dung).
She told them that she didn't care if he slept with me,
Ditto – the one I knew told me that. Sex actually means very little in some scenarios it seems. There’s too much else at stake. Sex is nothing by comparison.
I couldn't believe it! I was in absolute complete shock.
I’m trying to imagine that happening to me. I’d like to think I’d be calm, logical and know my rights. But I’d probably go completely ape. Or maybe just zone out. I’d be worried that my nightmare of being wrongly accused, or of the world being taken over by malicious aliens had come true. Flip out time.
Never had they arrested this man, even though they were called many times because he wouldn't leave me alone.
He was harassing you prior to this? And you’d reported him? And they still locked you up for the night???
I was told, "Well, you can't blame a man for trying can't you" and other nonsense.
This makes me feel sick.
I was called a slut and fast and promiscuous by my mother when I didn't even know what sex really was
Sorry Jac. This happens to so many women. Sins of the mothers being visited on the children. All the head-crap being projected onto you. I’m sorry. How old were you?
my family still enjoys a wonderful relationship with him while they can barely tolerate my presence at all.
I wonder how you can tolerate them Jac. Especially him, but more, your mother?
I wanted her so much to acknowledge and see my pain - it seemed to mean the world to me if she would.
Again I’m sorry, this is so raw it sounds. It’s odd but the wife of the bloke I saw, she had a weird effect on me too. Phoned me up in rage and had a real go at me and accused me of not being able to keep away from her H. Again, totally exonerating him. Said that she didn’t care if I slept with him but she would not tolerate it interfering with her life! I.e. if she wasn’t bothered by it, she would ignore it…..hmmm….makes me wonder now about her background. I’m glad they didn’t have kids. Anyway, yes, that conversation with her really affected me, it really stabbed away in my stomach. Me to blame. All my fault.
more......
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they treated me as they would treat their own mistress if she was in the precinct with their own wives. They punished me to try to silence and shame me.
That’s definitely a possibility. Keeping the peace! Did they silence you that night? Or did you have a ‘go’ at them? I guess you were in so much shock that you were probably near dumb?
I was the Jezebel, and she was Mother Theresa.
Maybe they thought she had several screws loose and locked you up for your own protection that night? Maybe they thought if they didn’t do that she might be a real danger to you? Maybe they had a brain between them? Maybe I’m being just a little too optimistic there. On the other hand, they’ve been presented with a ‘domestic situation’ (which I believe they really don’t like getting involved with) and they acted in a way they saw as practical? Do what the crazy old bag wants (lock you up), let you out, no charges. Maybe they thought that was the best practical option at the time, for all concerned?
I’d have liked to have seen them go collect the husband, drag him there in his PJs and locked him up. It might’ve had positive psychological effects (daddy’s in the wrong here on both counts). But cops aren’t paid to do that. They aren’t paid to lock up innocent people either (that’s you). Why do you think they locked you up that night? It was probably simply expedient for them. Sod what you thought or felt. I bet no-one talked to you? Made sure you were okay? How was it?
Not able to see Daddy as being wrong, huh? That's what a male dominated society does to us, it makes us unable to lay the blame at the feet of the man, where it belongs.
In this case most definitely yes. I’d extend it to say never being able to see mommy or daddy being wrong. It’s always the kids’ fault. Children are sacrificed for the parents. Marriage is part of that deal to an extent. Marriages are the family unit and so signify the family home, mommy and daddy. Nobody wants to see (their idealised) mommy and daddy split up.
Except it was my crime, and not her husbands, though
What was the ‘crime’? Phoning someone isn’t a crime. She was trying to prove harassment – but did she prove it against you? Did they bring a case against you? Or did they let you out the next day without anything formal – what happened? Because I agree with you, adultery is a (sort-of) crime (a pretty serious crime in some countries, and yes, of course, women are killed for it but men are not! Women are killed for bringing dishonour on the family! Damn that gets me going. Sorry.)…..yeah adultery is pretty mean, breaking the marriage contract. But he did it, not you. The crime was his.
Question Jac, I remember you were having therapy at some point. Are you now and if so have you been through this with him/her? Or did you go through it? It was a huge repeat trauma obviously. Big important stuff I feel.
It is tragically funny.
I meant I loved the way you actually wrote it out. You’re a great writer!
I cower here in the corner and await the Scarlet letter that will be placed along side of my name (Sigh)
Not sure I understand what the Scarlet letter is (Scarlet Woman?) but how about a scarlet word:
Jacmac INNOCENT
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He even asked me if I could testify on his behalf. I told him that the only way they could get me to the court is if they subpoena me.
The evil part of me thinks I might have said:
"Sure"
and then.....gone to court and been shameless.....not only confessing to the affair, butl giving a detailed account of how awful the sex was - graphically!!! :evil: :twisted: :mrgreen:
Just a quick one Jac....on my way out.
So, so, so sorry for all you've been through and very, very glad to hear that the sweet, sensitive, compassionate person......you ........has thrived and survived.
((((((((((((Jacmac)))))))))))
Sela
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Jac,
I'm sorry too. What a horrible painful rotten mess. You're NOT a bad person. You had a very bad experience because you had a lot of wounds that set you up perfectly for it.
It's wonderful that you made the connection between your grief over not being understood by this man's wife...that it was actually your grief over your own mother's lack of love, understanding and protection for you.
One little bell that rang for me, I wonder if it might make any sense to you. I remember when you were talking about the frustrating constant struggle to be heard by your uncooperative tenant, and how you would try over and over and over to contact or communciate with her in various ways.
When you mentioned the wife bringing a whole pile of phone records to the police station, I wonder if the same kind of urgent need to be heard by him was behind all those calls? If there were really a LOT of calls to his house, I can possibly imagine, just a little, how that might have seemed to strangers, or to the police...
Kind of a boundary thing. Meaning even if you are RIGHT that it's not fair that the wife did not understand your point of view, perhaps if there was a tremendous number or volume of calls you placed to their house (I know, you weren't calling to speak to her)...but I can kind of see how that may have put you in a bad light.
I'm not talking about your inner real experience of the situation--since I'm lucky to have been able to imagine in from your side, on the basis of your life experience that you've shared here, that's why I feell as though I can understand what was driving you, and why I TOTALLY agree with Sela that you, Jac, are INNOCENT.
You are an innocent human being.
I just was thinking that maybe outside that essence of goodness (that means, you are a very good human being)--in an external way, in the way society would see it from outside without knowing you, the repeated calls might have worked against you. (I am so sorry they locked you up!!!!!)
Am I making any sense?
(((((((((Jac))))))))))))
Hopalong
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Hi Portia,
Marriage is primarily about legal stuff, not love or respect.
I understand if you have a different view of marriage than me but, you seem to be stating what marriage is about for everyone not just yourself.
I didn't marry my wife because of 'legal stuff'. I married her precisely because I love and respect her, and that is primarily and nearly exclusively what our marriage is about.
mud
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Oh brother. I can see it, Jac:
When I asked, "So why am I here, trying to get him to leave me alone?" Their response was: "Oh, that's simple, because you want revenge." I think it was even said, "You should have never messed around with him after you learned he was married; you should have left him alone." A lot of shaming and I think personally, projection ( I watched the married arresting officer whispering sweet nothing in his partners ear, as she feigned shooing him away although I could see in her face she really liked the attention).
This gets my inner feminist all pissed off again. I am so sorry you were blamed in such a disproportionate way. You're right, it wasn't just a "black and white, right and wrong" situation...it was very complex and there were layers on top of layers of need and boundary and honesty and LACK OF.
Good for you for surviving it all with your wits and your insight intact and still chugging...
Respectfully,
Hops
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Dear Jac:
Your anger is valid. You have plenty to be angry about. And hurt/sad/disgusted/frustrated/heck even anxious and afraid... about (I imagine...tbese might be feelings you might have?? The fear, if it were me would be a) that she at some time finds some way to jump/get back/take revenge/in some huge way or b) that I might lose it and take her on ( :shock:). Ofcourse, those are just thoughts......not actions. Thoughts that cause fear eh? Thoughts that can be disregarded.
Something that has helped me.....a big thought:
Thinking about what others have done/how much it has harmed me/how deaf and/or gullible those NOT involved have been/all the corruption/deception etc.... and experiencing all of my pain, my feelings, etc........
for me...that's part of grieving the whole experience and a great and necessary part, which takes time.
But ......it's clear to me now that my feelings ....my anger, frustration, disgust, deep sadness, anxiety, guilt, shame, and all fear..........are not known about by those who caused them.....not computed by them. They don't give a hoot. My feelings don't effect them. My feelings effect me. So the longer I hang onto those......the more effect they will have.
Maybe this idea will help you to let go of your anger?? Or maybe you're not ready to do that yet?
I'm glad you're talking here. I wish we could all meet in a small cafe for coffee/tea/whatnot and I would maybe not spit everything out, like I do here, (having time to think and type and backspace and retype..even then....maybe not getting it all down as I mean or clearly or sensibly)......but if we met, for sure I would communicate my wish to support you and give you a real live hug and tell you, as Portia did, that you are indeed innocent.
Ya know, there's a big thingy about placing blame but I personally think it's ok to place blame when we have been abused. The blame is not yours, in any way, Jac, re that lying, sneaking, cheating, backstabbing boyfriend, nor what happened with your father, or your mother's total absense of compassion and extreme denial. Those are all behaviours that belong to THEM, not you. You are good. And getting better!!
(((((((((((((((((((((((((Jac))))))))))))))))))))))))
Hey P:
On the other hand, information and knowledge is now travelling around the globe faster and with less control (was Google right to offer a censored search to China? I guess it’s better than just saying ‘no’). Charities are amongst those daughters and sons, trying their best. There is hope!
Yes. Three cheers for those fighting the beast!! Thanks for reminding me of that hope, P.
Mind you, we talk about being abusive to each other, what about our attitude to our only home? Big problems to sort out! I hope we do sort them out.
Not sure I know what you mean Portia. Which home are you referring to? Maybe I need another coffee this morning eh?
Have a day full of hope all!!
Sela
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Hey Portia,
Did you mean our planet home?
I grieve a lot about that. The whole tragic mess, headlines full of hatred, and meanwhile the planet heats up while thick-as-an-oilpump politicians flap their jaws, and every single day, more endangered species die out... Only hope I see is in alternative energy. There is NO reason we can't invent it and it's pathetic we lost so much time. Got a good start in the 60s and then everyone goes, ooooh, it's expensive and difficult to invent this. Hmmm, let's invent something else. Oh I know! (By now it's the 90s)...let's invent SUVs! Aren't we CLEVER! (Grrrrr........)
Hops
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Hey Hop!
Thanks eh! I get it now. Bet you're right about Portia meaning "our planet". Yep. There's air in my head.
:D
Thanks for clearing that up! Home sweet home. I like the idea of wind mills. They are sooo graceful and quiet and lovely. I wish they'd build more of them. I'd actually like one in my back yard but I hear they're over 100 grand to put up (a big enough one to power an entire household, that is).
If I win the lottery........that's my new plan!! I hardly ever buy a ticket though. I think I better start.
:lol: Sela
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I was driving in the mountains of W. Va. last spring and came on top of a mountaintop and whoosh...there was a whole line of those HUGGE spinning wind turbines, quiet things, heading miles down the ridge....
I also saw them as beautiful. Like huge silent birds.
(Of course naked mountain is nicer, but I think knowing what they replace---dead coal miners? Damn! I'm thinking whenever I turn on a light, there's another hour some poor person spends crawling through the earth for me)...
Runs my computer, tube, all the things I take for granted.
:(
Hops
We gotta get there. And one day they'll have the technology to set them in the sea.
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You are most welcome Jac.
I would repeat those words a thousand times if it would help. It's not your fault. It was never your fault. It was their behaviour. They deceived, lied, manipulated, twisted, abandoned, violated, etc, etc, etc. A thousand times over I would say this (but people would maybe get bored after awhile eh?? :lol:). I want it to stick Jac! I want you to feel it!! Believe it!! Know it!! Because it's true and no matter how many times they try to fix it to look or sound otherwise......what happened......happened tooooooooooooo you.....not because of you......not by your doing!! It was their actions.
I'm going to share with you something that I've decided lately. I've always had a real hard time accepting compliments. Honestly. People say nice things to and about me sometimes and I thank them and then....brush those words off sort of. As if.......I don't believe them. Well, actually.....a lot of the time....I don't take the words to heart or really interalize them or believe them. I don't feeeel good inside or let the good effect of their good words sink deep. Why? Why do I do that?? I've been thinking quite a lot about this.
Yet......someone can unsult me......say something mean......hurtful.....rude.......and what do I do? I take their words right in! Soak them up like syrup! The words hurt! I let them hurt. I am sooooooo good at absorbing the crap!! A master!! Why? Why is that??
I've been thinking and I've decided. For some reason......I must not think I'm worthy of praise?? I must not feel I deserve it. I must have some .......unconscious switch that deflects the compliments but accepts the crap!! Jeepers!! That's ridiculous, isn't it??
Because consiously....I really think I'm ok. I believe I'm not perfect but I'm ok. I have some good in me. A lot really (and some bad too). And I consciously think I believe I'm worthy.
But it's that unconscious junk.......the stuff I don't know about.....the buried stuff.....that.......frigs me up.
Big time!!
So......I've decided. I want to fight that unconscious feces and I'm determined to do it too! (Stubborn you know?). Yep. So now.......I'm consciously fighting the junk my unconscious brain keeps trying to impose on my awareness.
And I swear........the good things people say to me.....I'm going to write on a piece of paper and put them in a jar. I'm going to thank them graciously but also........work......at pulling out those slips of paper (watch...now......the jar ends up empty!!! hahahahaha!!!). .......take them out, look at them, tell myself I am worthy, it's ok to accept the words, to feel good, tell myself I did good, and if I have to paste them into a collage and study it every day.....to get my unconscious mind to take a hike from rejecting the good......I will!!
And also.......instead of sopping up every negative thing people say ........I am going to try really hard to ask:
"I wonder what's up his/her arse?" and not immediately let their words go directly to my heart and feel pain.
What's the point? Maybe it's similar for you (or many people). Maybe being abused....no matter what type of abuse.....is degrading? Maybe the shame inflicted....for what we think we tolerated......for missing cues......for allowing ourselves to be lead along......for all the thoughts about what we might have done to stop it....to prevent it......whatever......maybe all of that.......gets sucked into our unconscious brain and whispers sweet nothings to us....every time we try to believe otherwise. And maybe the unworthiness we feel......can be combatted? Maybe...part of the abuse is the actual damage done to that part of our brain???
And maybe......it will help you.......me........whoever........to take a stand against it. To start sending conscious messages to our brains.....messages that refute those untruths and that unworthiness.
Because the truth is.......it wasn't our fault people abused us. We did not do the behaviours. And we have nothing to be ashamed of. That shame......I believe......is toxic and is what poisons so much.
And I want nothing more than to send in the antidote.
((((((((Jac))))))))
:D Sela
PS: I'll have tea please, with milk. And a low fat muffin. Trying to drop some pounds eh.
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P.P.S:
You are certainly precious:
Written on a piece of paper and placed in the jar.
Thankyou so very much Jac. So are you!
:D Sela
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Sela,
You ARE the antidote. You have such a clear strong heart.
I just felt a blast of comfort and support because of your determination.
thank you.
Hops
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Hiya Jacmac, sorry I haven’t been back here to post although I have read. I agree with Sela, the pain and trauma you’ve been through – whatever and whenever you want or feel like you might want to work through some again, well, just do it. You deserve all the space and support you want. Yes you answered all my questions and more; I feel a bit dim for asking stuff but it sure clarified what happened. You are more clear-seeing than I might have imagined at the beginning of this and maybe I under-estimated your own analysis? I might have. Sorry.
This man is and was a Narcissist. He could not take no for an answer. First he told me his wife was dead. Then he confessed he lied, but said they were separated, soon to be divorced. Portia, don't you remember? The story is here, it was one of my first posts, http://www.voicelessness.com/disc3/index.php?topic=231.msg1942#msg1942
I had a look and while yes I remember, I was pretty new and exceptionally ill-informed at the time (don’t you remember just how infuriatingly ill-informed I was? :oops: :roll:). I did read your thread at the time but felt it was way out of my league so I didn’t participate. I didn’t have anything to say at the time. And now I think you know better what you're talking about than I do. Keep talking!
Hi Mud
Quote
Marriage is primarily about legal stuff, not love or respect.
I understand if you have a different view of marriage than me but, you seem to be stating what marriage is about for everyone not just yourself.
Only my opinion Mud, as it is for me. Isn’t that obvious? Maybe not. It’s only what I think and that’s a result of my life. No way would I say it was a true fact for everyone. That would be outrageous!
I didn't marry my wife because of 'legal stuff'. I married her precisely because I love and respect her, and that is primarily and nearly exclusively what our marriage is about.
I’m very glad to hear that. I’m a bit envious too. Is that okay? Can I be envious just a little? Maybe it’s not envy, maybe it’s sadness. Yeah. But anyway, just to say, yes, okay, no worries Mud. I’m sad you took my words that way and it wasn’t my intention that you would. (((Mud)))
Sela and Hop
Yeah, the planet!
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Hi Portia,
Marriage is primarily about legal stuff, not love or respect. Apart from all the social conventions, social cohesion through the ‘family’ and so on. Love and respect happen between people, not because of some socially and legally sanctioned event.
To be perfectly honest, it isn't really apparent to me from that quote that you were speaking only for yourself. It sounds kind of like a blanket statement. If it is not then I stand corrected.
And since we're back on the subject for a just a minute, I'd like to modify what I said about marriage. As a believer, my marriage is first and foremost a covenant made before God, that the vows I took regarding my marriage were way beyond not only a legal contract, but they are beyond just loving and respecting my wife. The every day life within our marriage involves love and respect but the actual marriage ceremony and vows were made to God and my wife, that even if things are lousy between us I am still committed to her for life. Fortunately I married a saint so things are seldom if ever lousy. But short of her having several torrid affairs or waiting for me in the closet with a steak knife, my marriage is a commitment for life to her through good times and bad. That's why I believe real love is not a feeling or emotion, but a decision, a commitment.
mud
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Hiya Mud a quickie. Okay it does sound like a blanket statement now that I read it.
Sorry. It's not well-thought out and it stinks. Won't be the last time I bet :D
Do you want I should clarify? Or shall we leave it as my opinion about my thoughts at that time?
Don't mind either way but would rather you tell me what you want. Big analysis of what i really think (groan) or just a promise from me that I'll think it over and reconsider?
You're too cool 8) Thanks Mud :D P :arrow: shops
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P,
Let's just leave it as your opinion.
I'm sure we both have better things to do than masticate this issue any further.
mud
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Hi jacmac,
Well maybe we're dealing with semantics maybe not.
I think infatuation is a feeling or emotion and I think romantic affecton is a feeling as is friendship or brotherly love. Maybe its best to break it down into the Greek definitions. I'm speaking of the 'agape' love of voluntary self sacrifice because you value someone so highly you put their well being before your own. Thats the love I mean that makes marriage work and that to me is a commitment not a feeling.
Hey Portia I'm going to use a bible verse. :P
"Greater love hath no man than this, that he should lay down his life for a brother (or spouse)." Laying down your life isn't so much a feeling as an act, a decision to place another's life as more important to us than our own. I think a (nonN) parent's love is the same thing.
Maybe its based on feelings I don't know. But lots of people have affectonate feelings and as soon as they see greener pastures or the going gets a little tough they're out the door like greased lightning. But I don't think that emotion deserves the name of love.
mud
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Hi all:
Hmmmmmm. Thinking out loud. I want to say my opinion on:
Marriage. Yep. I'm for it. That's amazing....considering. :shock:
Love. What is it? A bunch of stuff I think.
Does everyone believe the same about love and marriage?? (Love and marrrrrrrrriage....love and marrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrriage..............................go together like a horse and carrrrrrrrrrrrrrriage..... :D. Remember Married with children??) Naw......we all have our ideas on wed-lock I bet (wed-lock? hahaha! who thought that one up? :lol: Not these days it isn't!).
Bible quotes: For each to interpret, if they want to. Ah......go ahead and quote. Why not?
Politics? Part of life. Might as well vote.....then if you're lucky like me....whoever you vote for.....doesn't win....so then you can complain..............a lot!! :D :D. Go ahead and discuss it.....but be careful. It's like trying to interpret bible quotes....only worse!! :roll:
semantics?
Ya. It's all how we interpret.....take it further......post-semantically........how we perceive........react.
Self-sacrifice?
Not just for married people. There's no monopoly on it eh? :mrgreen:
Ok. I'm done. For now. Until later. Like Red Green would say (not to anyone specific)......"keep your stick on the ice!"
This isn't one of those abusive communities (trying to get back to the title of this thread eh.....how am I doing?).
:D Sela
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By the way......
Thankyou Hoppy for what you wrote. Too kind. If I write it on a piece of paper and watch it flutter to the bottom of my jar....it will take a lot of re-reads......to get me to agree to that antidote part. But it sure was nice of you to say that and I appreciate it very much.
That was very generous. Thankyou. I think your heart must be giant. That's what it seems like to me anyhow. I'm glad you're here.
:D Sela
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Sela, thank you. :oops:
I like this very much, Jac.
I think that love is a feeling and emotion. Being commited to that feeling and emotion is the decision. We can decide to honor that feeling, even if it changes or fades over the years, we can decide to be committed to that original feeling and the promise that we've made because of it.
Same time, I had that emotion, yet I was divorced, twice. Great anguish over both decisions and in hindsight I don't know how I could have done otherwise. My spirit was just about extinguished. Yet...my child suffered (she was desperate for my second marriage to end, and in the first, her own dad had begun to be emotinally cruel to her). But there are still pieces of doubt and guilt that I don't know if I'll ever be rid of.
Yet...deep at heart, I yearn for a simple loving companionship, with total devotion, like that I saw in so many of my elderly relatives. They were bound together by shared religion that I came to drift away from...but also by a sweet devotion, acceptance, and much tolerance of each other.
That is a nostalgia and yearning in me like the smell of fresh bread baking, and I'm saddened by the possibility (I started to type "likelihood" and decided I don't want to say that) that I may never find this kind of love. Which I think does boil down to agape, a deeply loving friendship...
Sighh,
Hops
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I liked what Mud said about marriage, and I believe that's the ideal, yet I've been divorced twice. The first time I was very young and had no idea what a marriage commitment meant. The second time I was married for almost 23 years, and hung in there even though the last ten years were miserable. Finally, I was put in a position where I don't think I had much choice. XH was basically dating another woman who he was obviously infatuated with, and wanted to start a business with her which would have had disastrous consequences, in my opinion, to our family. (He eventually went bankrupt.) I was being destroyed emotionally and, as more and more revelations came as to his behavior, just couldn't stay married to him anymore. I was also terrified of what would happen to all of our children if he brought us down financially. When you have 6 children still at home, that's a pretty big consideration.
I talked to my pastor about the whole mess, when trying to make some decisions, and he said I should have divorced XH years ago. Yet, the sadness and sometimes guilt still catch me unawares. Sometimes, it just hits me--how my children now have divorced parents, how their parents won't be a unit when they get married and have their own families, how hard I have to work to keep us in decent shape financially. It's so far from what I wanted for my family and I get moments of doubt--could I have made it work if I just tried harder? Then, reality rears its head and I realize that I didn't have the choice of staying in a decent marriage or getting a divorce. The choice was trying to cope with an intolerable situation emotionally and watch all of us go down the tubes financially, or get a divorce and save my sanity and have the best shot at supporting the children.
Now, to think I actually filed a police report after a phone call from XH that the officer called a terrorist threat, just seems surreal. Every once in awhile, when XH calls the kids, and I hear his voice, I remember the man I once I loved very much. But, there's the unpaid medical bills, the car he owns that I have to make payments on, the awful names he's called me, his lack of follow through on important responsibilities, the things he says about me to the children, and I remember how crazy he made me when we were still married.
Just feeling a little low tonight I guess. I'm tired and I guess I'm reliving some of the trauma for some reason. Two of the children were upset about something totally unrelated to XH, and I handled it OK, but it was a trigger as I started feeling badly about how the children were affected by our divorce.
Gail
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Hi Gail:
I used to have similar thoughts and feelings as you've described above and this too would happen:
it was a trigger as I started feeling badly about how the children were affected by our divorce.
But somehow....eventually the thought would pop into my head about......what would have happened had I stayed and how would that have effected them???
I like that prospect a whole lot less and I know in my heart it would have been much worse for all of us.
Hope you're feeling better. You're a good mum and your children are lucky to have you.
(((((((Gail))))))
Sela
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((((((((Gail))))))))
You must be so weary.
But you are a weary hero.
I believe you saved your kids from even unhappier things.
I truly believe you did right by them, as well as by yourself.
I hope you can rest some, show lovingkindness toward yourself,
honor your good strong heart.
Bless yourself...as you've been blessing your kids.
You deserve such respect.
Hopalong