Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: reallyME on July 06, 2006, 09:22:52 PM
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http://www.healthyplace.com/COMMUNITIES/Personality_Disorders/site/Transcripts/treatment_PD.htm
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Thank you, RM.
On edit... Thiis some very timely help.
Hope
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Thanks for sharing that link, Write; it's a good one.
Hope, if you're interested, this is one of the best borderline personality disorder sites I've found:
http://www.psycom.net/depression.central.borderline.html
One incredibly helpful book on BPD = Stop Walking on Eggshells: Coping When Someone you Care About has Borderline Personality Disorder. It's more practical than diagnostic, really explained the 'looping', imho, it's easy to get caught in relating to someone with BPD.
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Interesting link!
I do notice that the focus seems to be on BPD and NPD much if not most of the time. Understandable, because these are the seriously high-maintenance people who are also out in the mainstream grabbing for attention and resources.
But there are other PDs, and they're quite different. Avoidant, for instance -- these are people who find most other people so painful to be around, so unaware and uncaring, that they'd really rather not bother. Not worth the pain, 90% of the time. They become recluses, etc.
That's very very different from the diva-driven drama of an extreme borderline.
Anyway, I'm rambling, but I wanted to point out that not all PDs are the same - and there are folks with other kinds of PDs, or traits for them, who have a great deal of insight, are fighting heroically towards health, and deserve all of the support and affirmation we can give them.
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LOH,
As RM has expressed the point that she sometimes feels ignored here I think it only fair to point out that she and write are two different people. :wink:
mud
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thank you Mudpuupy, yes we are, but I'm happy to share the credit for interesting links :D
not all PDs are the same - and there are folks with other kinds of PDs, or traits for them, who have a great deal of insight, are fighting heroically towards health, and deserve all of the support and affirmation we can give them.
absolutely, it's just sad that they don't always maintain an overall 'progress' and they often take so much energy from others in their quest.
I think my ex would with a different partner than me behave totally differently, it's the old patterns together which we cannot break.
I noticed the same with my father- once I was out of the picture he went on to create a much healthier life for himself....
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Classic board boo-boo, I've made it, LoH! :?
Hi, RM--thanks for sharing this fine link. And hi Write anyway!
And hi, Mud. How's about a little update? How are you doing?
Hops
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and I don't mind who gets the credit for the link...glad it's helpful to those it is.
Avoidant, for instance -- these are people who find most other people so painful to be around, so unaware and uncaring, that they'd really rather not bother. Not worth the pain, 90% of the time. They become recluses, etc.
Stormchild, I couldn't AGREE with you more. There is a person in my life who has this..I've seen her talk herself out of almost every opportunity available with saying "I can't afford it, I'm not good enough, God doesn't want me to do that" yet, if this person would just step out and do it, they would find it's not so terrifying after all...the thing is, a lot of people are avoidant because they want attention too. STaying in a rutt brings about more attention than to move on to success (during the moving on process, there are no accolades, and sometimes people don't even notice your progress, now do they)
It's all frustrating to me...the PD's...I'm thankful for a sound mind but my heart goes out to those struggling in these things.
~RM
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RM, thank you for this:
STaying in a rutt brings about more attention than to move on to success (during the moving on process, there are no accolades, and sometimes people don't even notice your progress, now do they)
That's a wonderful piece of truth.
Hops
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Is it Hops? Is it a wonderful piece of truth? I don’t know of anyone who thinks to themselves Gee, I think I’ll grow up and be a PD so I can get lots of attention. There are things that are truly terrifying for some that have nothing to do with getting attention. Belittle any progress… it won’t last anyway, right??? Not part of the problem and not part of the solution right?
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MS,
Sorry, I wan't thinking about PDs specifically...wandering off as usual.
Nooooooooooo way I think people plan to have PDs, gosh no.
I was just looking at that sentence on its own and thinking how I've sometimes been mired in blabbing away about my various ruts instead of climbing out of them.
Hops
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Of course people don't plan to have personality disorders...I wasn't sayin they do at all. I was commenting about someone in my personal life, who KNOWS SHE HAS ONE, however enjoys getting attention, so she refuses to get help for it. That was about a person I know personally, not a general statement, although it sounded like one.
~ReallyME
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Wow I really am miscommunicating here lately.
My sympathy was with the person suffering from the avoidant trait or disorder. Someone whose overwhelming impression of human interaction is that it is cruel, and brutal, and not worth the pain it causes. Someone who has suffered so much at the hands of other human beings that they can't even envision a human interaction that isn't primarily about causing them pain, because people have so often taken pleasure in hurting them.
So they prefer to forgo all human interaction because it's just not worth the price tag.
My intent was to point out that people with other PDs, not borderline or narcissistic, can often be very much aware of their problem and terribly pained by it and find it extremely difficult to work through because everything they have lived and experienced has taught them the life lesson their PD embodies.
The PD is a sane adaptation to an insane situation, in other words, and the person who suffers from it did not choose it, does not want it, and would give anything to be free of it. But to be free of it, they have to unlearn everything their early life experience taught them... my God, that's a daunting task! And anyone who makes even the faintest, feeblest attempt to do it... deserves a medal, and as much support as can be given them.
That's what I meant to say. I hope this version's a little clearer. :( :( :(
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Stormchild,
It was clear the first time you said it, and my comments shall remain as I put them as well.
You also said: The PD is a sane adaptation to an insane situation,
I will disagree on this statement and say The PD is an unhealthy adaptation to an insane, dysfunctional situation, or it is a chemical imbalance in the brain of a person, which needs treatment through meds and/or counseling. There is absolutely nothing sane about personality disorders.
~RM
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Hi LoH,
Thanks for the BPD link! Until I read there, I didn't realize that in many cases, the borderline symptoms ease as a person approaches her 40's. In my own research, I also found some articles that have been quite helpful @ http://http://www.borderlinepersonality.ca/ajbpdarticlesmainpage.htm
You mentioned the "looping" that it's easy to get caught up in ... on edit, I can say that I've dealt with that considerably and it's difficult to maintain firm boundaries (not to mention sanity) and stay off the rollercoaster without bailing on the relationship completely.
Storm ~ I just wanted to say that when I'm at a low-energy level, clear communication is no easy task and sleep deprivation sure can contribute to a multitude of difficulties. If there's anyplace in the world where you're allowed to stumble over your own fingers, it's here :) I hope that you'll be gentle with yourself... and continue feeling better.
RM ~ one of the most troublesome things I've faced in relating to my friend is my own feeling, at times, that she's behaving very manipulatively solely for the purpose of gaining attention. I've come to accept that this is a mechanism in her mind, but not the intent of her heart... like a well practiced habit. At any rate, it's given me plenty of practice at developing the habit of not taking offense :)
Hope
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Hi RM --
Thanks for your thoughts. Have a good weekend!
Hope, you've put a lot of clarity into the topic here. Helps me too.
Mountainspring, I remember as a child being criticized for 'attention-seeking' when the real problem was that my parent was N and couldn't deal with a child's normal and human needs -because they wanted all the attention and resources for themselves! That kind of criticism can leave a lasting impression. ((((((((((MS))))))))))
Hops -- I know what you meant too. My Nmom had Munchausen's, she used factitious illnesses to hog attention and suck up all the available resources, both monetary and emotional. Eventually it killed her. Unlike Hope's friend, though, I am sure that my Nmom knew exactly what she was doing, until she got in over her head the very last time. Because of things I heard from various people after her death... ugh.
Write - re my Nmom above - kind of resonates with what you said about your ex, doesn't it.
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Hi Hops… the attention thing bothered me because N’s are always criticizing us for seeking attention. I was a little triggered there and should have asked for clarification. I'm sorry for jumping on you like that.
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MS, what a perfect cross-post! ((((((((((MS)))))))))) me too, if it helps any.
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(((((((((((((((((((MS))))))))))))))))))))) hon.
You know we're okay.
Hops who did not take it personally
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Thanks, Storm. (On edit, removing a reference in which I may have crossed a boundary by even mentioning a friend). One thing that's quite eerie about this whole situation is that she reminds me so much of my aunt... never married, lived with my grandmother all of her life (she outlived grandma by only a few years)... Grandma used to say, "Oh, she would do anything for you kids" (her nieces) and yet I always sensed an ulterior motive, a much darker side. Aunt loved to spend money, on us and on herself... usually totally useless items at highly inflated prices. Only the best for her. She even used to complain about her plain name... she wished, she said, that my grandparents had given her a fancier, more elegant one. My mother, who is quite N minus the pathological lying, says that this aunt (her younger sister) was quite a handful as a child... biting, kicking, scratching... and that "Mother and Dad always seemed to know that she would need to be taken care of". My mother ~ the unemotional, self-involved, miserly, perfectionistic, stoical martyr and her sister ~ childish, neurotic, spendthrift, spiteful, passive-aggressive, clingy... arghhhh. Sometimes I wonder, were they actually one person, split into two? So strange. And now, dealing with the BPD traits in my friend, I begin to feel like I'm taking on my mom's personality because to do anything else is to invite another ride on the rollercoaster. And... I am seriously questioning my own reasons for even choosing to engage with this person. In reading an article on "compulsive helping", I can see where I've crossed the line at times between caring and caretaking. If nothing else, this whole thing is bringing to life an old conflict within myself between the traits from both my mother and my aunt that might be lodged within me. I understand that boundaries are absolutely crucial when dealing with BPD. My dilemma is... in putting up those fences, I feel the rigidity and coldness of my mother sneaking up on me. I appreciate a challenge, but this one may be a bit too much for me.
Hope
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boundaries do feel like hardheartedness, that's why it's so hard for us to put them in place.
yours seem appropriately flexible tho.
hope, i see an aspect of your FOO drama here that i am wondering if you have seen too, or i am projecting. it sounds as though your aunt was a spoiled little hellion, and your grandparents may have favored her at your mother's expense. not an uncommon pattern in two child families and one that wouldn't have helped your mother grow towards health but would have fostered a kind of closedness, a kind of bitterness, a determination to protect whatever crumbs and scraps she got.
if i am totally off target, tell me to put a sock in it ;-) i don't mind. am not defending your mother, just pointing out an additional element to the family drama that might shed light on other things - if i'm anywhere near the truth, and if there are any other things that need light shed on them.
do you have a link to that compulsive helping article? I'm going to google the term, but if you have a link I'd be really grateful...
sorry re no shift key, am eating...
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Storm, here are a couple of the links... unfortunately, this singular behavior of being compulsively helpful often gets lumped in with discussions of co-dependency. I thought this was helpful because it separates the "need to help" from the rest of the mix which may not always apply.
http://www.lessons4living.com/compulsions.htm
http://www.promis.co.uk/?view=chelp
You may be right on target re: the dynamics within my mother's family while she and her sister and brother were growing up. My grandfather died when I was 6, but I surely remember all of the photos of him next to shiny cars, wearing shiny shoes... a very dapper fellow. I've always had a hunch that he was very particular and possibly quite demanding. From a few comments my Grandma made over the years, I do know that he was quite fussy about what he would eat. He also refused to allow my mother to go away to college, although she'd earned a scholarship. Of course, this was circa 1944. He spent the last ten years of his life incapacitated with rheumatoid arthritis and Parkinsons. I know that the family took many trips in search of treatments and cures.. from "gold shots" to sulfur baths. I suspect that he may have been the supreme N. Grandma always seemed very mellow and even tempered, which is probably why she lived to such a ripe old age... but I know that she had a fire within. She always said that it took alot to make her angry, but once she'd gotten mad, that was that. I have often thought that she must have been given a special grace from God in order to put up with all the other nuts in the family. My mother's brother was the king of irresponsibility. He lived a dissolute life with alcohol, failed marriages, many years disability and dying of cirrhosis of the liver.
Yes, I can how my mother would have been influenced to develop such a severe perfectionism... such an overpowering sense of responsibility... and you're right, she guards and keeps her little scraps to the death. Ultra materialistic, she is. I always thought that was mostly a result of growing up during the tight times of the Depression. She hoards, too. I guess I spent so much effort trying to NOT be like her that I haven't given all that much thought to how she got that way. Thanks for your insights, Storm.
Hope