Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Jackie45 on July 07, 2006, 10:35:53 PM
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I wrote a post recently about how my B/F answered a call from a female 'friend' just a few minutes after he and I were intimate and he made a coffee date with her at that same time.I am still struggling with that. However, when I wrote that, we had been separated for two week after an agument over another matter. I walked out on him. (I did not post these last details in the original post to avoid making the story TOO complicated)
OK,hereis the latest.Two days ago he called me and wanted to meet to 'talk'. WE go for coffee at 3pm and talk till about 6pm .We are making progress and he then invites me to go out to dinner and dancing. WE meet later and have a really lovely romantic evening and I go back to his place and stay until 9am the next morning. THe reconciliation feels successful so far and we agree to meet again at 5pm for more coffee and talking.
WE go for coffee and we are real relaxed . It feels good . Later, as, we are walking to our cars,he says, "I have something to tell you." Oops, my bells are ringing.
Eventually he tells me that he went to a restaurant lunch today with HIS female 'FRIEND'.
He tells a story of her arranging the lunch a week ago when we were apart and then tells me that he did not know it was going to be a big slap-up lunch. He thought that it was going to be ,"Just a walk along the river bank." I am speechless. HE goes on a date with aanother woman right in the middle of our reconciliation, LESS THAT 24 HOURS AFTER WE HAD SLEPT TOGETHER??
I am in disbelief. I tell him how shocked and hurt I am. HE says, "You are taking this really well."
I drive home in cold shock.
I need your input NOW. I am stunned.
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Jackie, hi.
Sorry you're having such an upsetting time.
Breeeeaaaaaaaaaaathhhhhhe.
Please go back to the thread you started before. Read all of it. Consider the questions, observations.
Here's a new question if you need one: Why are YOU enjoying....staying in....this drama?
He is still playing the same game.
Taking a call, having a lunch...the issue is EXACTLY THE SAME and the details don't change it.
But the true problem is, you are playing the same game too. You've upped the ante. You have increased your investment in it. You haven't stepped back. You're escalating the drama and the potential to both be outraged and then to feel hurt and victimized. I'm not judging you (I majored in this behavior into my 50s).
My honest opinion is that you are not going to get any clarity until, you seriously deal with all the thoughts and questions that were offered in the previous thread. (Not because you found them here, but because from all my reading and therapy I truly believe they are true and helpful.)
It's the same pattern, just a little variation. She's still around, he's still connected to her and toying with you. You can't do one thing about this man's character.
You're still sleeping with him and fantasizing. You can do something to change that if you want to. You might need help, therapy, books, etc. Those are choices too.
What do YOU think? I believe you can think.
It's hard, but I feel your outrage and anger may be addictive and feeding some need in you that might be better met by throwing your heart and mind into healing yourself and finding your creativity. Finding out about that would be really valuable for your life, I believe. (And I believe you can do it.)
I'm preaching to myself, here. I waste a lot of my precious life force on the wrong things. Easy to spot in others, but I do understand how challenging it is to change mental patterns, particularly about romance.
Hope something shifts soon, and hope you'll let us know about it...
Hops
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Dump him. He's a bum.
Your feelings may be complicated but what you should do is not.
Dump. The. Bum.
mud
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Jackie:
Mudpup is right AND Hops is right.
HE is a bum. Dump him. AND YOU get to decide and ONLY you can decide.
You don't need "us" telling you anything, you KNOW WHAT TO DO! What are you waiting for and why are you waiting???
THIS IS NOT LOVE. THIS IS ABUSE.
Wake up.
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Ok HE is gone !
Jackie.
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OK I just called him and said that his 'date' with the other woman ,less that a day after we reconciled, was trashy and way beyond what I call acceptable behavior. He tried to say that he "thought" about canceling the date with her but he ,"hates hurting people's feelings." I exploded," What the f**k about MY feelings!"
He said that he deserves credit for being HONEST with me. Is he for real?
He wanted to meet and talk about it -I said take a hike.
I feel like crap, Jackie.
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Jackie
He deserves no credit for anything let alone honesty.ty
The one good thing here is that although you feel like crap, this is the last time you will feel like crap because of this man.
Storm is right. He will reappear. It could be days, weeks, months but he will reappear. It is up to you to make it a very short reappearance. No more three hour talks. He is manipulating you. I have been through this before.
For all you know he has more than one other woman he is playing this game with.
Now is the time for you to take extra special care of yourself. Take some time to mourn but not too long. Do some nice things for yourself and know that there is a great man out there somewhere for you. A man that will truly love you, cherish you, and treat you right.
I agree with Hops that you need to go back to the other thread and read it again and again.
I also suggest that you buy and read the bood "He's Just Not That Into You". I don't remember the name of the author but you will find it on Amazon.com.
Also, congratulations on breaking it off instead of clinging to false hope that things will straighten out with this man and that he will see the error of his ways and become the kind of man you want and need. Congratulate yourself for having the strength to do what needed to be done. Yes, you can think. You know when you feel bad and you know what to do about it.
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Jackie,
Thank you for sharing all this. I feel so glad for you.
One thing: you are feeling like crap. Here's something to focus on right now, if you can absorb one more piece of advice:
Enduring the feeling like crap is something you can do. The feeling like crap may have to do with an addictive kind of "fusion" created by sleeping with someone too soon, and fantasizing (which distorts reality). Please understand that the feeling like crap may literally just be a withdrawal symptom.
Endure the feeling like crap (without reaching for him) and IT WILL PASS.
You are going to be a changed woman after this, Jackie.
It may not feel like it at the moment, but it's wonderful news.
(One more piece of advice: Please read Men Who Can't Love by Steven Carter). You are right in the MIDDLE of this book and it will help you now if you read it now.)
Hang in there and keep venting here, we'll help you!
(((Jackie)))
Hops
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it's even more fun for him if he knows you figured him out and he can sucker you back in, and lie to you and hurt you even more. There really are guys whose hobby is cruelty of this type.
Stormy is right! That's my ex husband she's talking about! See, honey, you got smart early in the game. Some of us are slow learners....consider yourself one lucky gal.
Look forward, Jackie. You know what you don't want, now figure out what you DO want and focus on that instead (of that ***hole).
Good for you!
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Because I come from an NPD family I have a BIG need to be heard, listened too. THat makes me vulnerable to going to a coffee meeting with him to speak my mind about how his behavior was bad, and how it hurt me. I know that I need to never see him again, BUT I seem to want to "let him have it."
Any clues about NOT doing that.
Jackie.
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"I am hearing my SELF, my deepest healing SELF and that feels fine."
Repeat....100x.....
Do hold on and endure the discomfort. The urge to tell him off can still be an urge to reconnect, have a romantic fight and romantic reunion until his next hint of unfaithfulness, and then...quicksand.
To truly be kind to your deepest self, don't go or call or write or accept calls or visits or letters. Instead, when that urge comes of wanting him to listen (which would change noting except perhaps damage your dignity)...just say: "I am hearng my SELF and that feels fine."
Hops
Hops (Please read Men Who Can't Love, ASAP)
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It is very normal to want to "let him have it". The problem is that even if you did, he wouldn't hear you. He would feel no shame. It would not cause him to change.
The best you can do is to tell him off in your own mind. Write him a letter if you want but don't send it. If you get the urge to call him or meet with him, beat a pillow instead to help release your anger. Post your anger on this board. We can hear you.
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Jackie,
I agree with Hops and Jona. Do not follow through on your urge to meet and "let him have it." What he would hear you saying is "she still wants me." People like this do not understand hurting other people's feelings because they themselves do not feel. To them, it is just another conquest, a game to win, a notch in the belt--however you wish to phrase it. They simply don't care how you feel--only what you can give them. Once they have sucked everything out of you and you don't give them what they need anymore, they move on and find a new player in their sick game.
I can't tell you how many times I wanted to tell off my exnh. I actually did have a few moments here and there and did send some e-mails early on (but you have to remember that in my case, it was 22 years and 2 children, not 2 months). But those moments were met with blank stares, eye-rolling, and basically telling me I was crazy and he was entitled to do what he wanted to do to make himself "happy." People like this can never truly be happy because down deep, where they cannot face themselves, all they feel is shame and disgust over who and what they are.
Bottom line--just move on. You have only devoted a couple of months to this a$$hole, and I wouldn't let him take one more minute of your time. Start reading some of the books people have suggested (I like the "He's Just Not THAT Into You" suggestion--I really got a lot out of that), make plans with girlfriends and vent your anger and frustration, but don't bother with him. He just isn't worth it.
Brigid
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Happy Sunday, Jackie:
Your greatest victory is in releasing your anger safely (IOW, not with him) and letting go and moving on and taking very good care of yourself, and reading and learning (women's support group? therapy?) in as many ways as you can--to devote your 40s and 50s and rest of your life to finding and using your own voice, for your own highest good.
These are exciting things to be involved in. Exciting times. You have an exciting life ahead! You can do it!
(Anger = attachment = flattering this sort of guy's ego. Far better for him to never hear one more syllable from you, ever. The best revenge is living a happy life.)
Hops
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He called me today and asked me if it was really over. He said that he wanted me to be OK with the decision to end it and he was interested in my feelings more than his. BS!!
He is toying with me. He said that he knows that he has treated me badly BUT then stopped short of saying "sorry" or anything like repentance.
What is he up to now?
I said goodbye and hung up. Maybe he will try again -who knows?
Jackie ..(I am reading the other replies from my first post)
I will be OK ..
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Hear, hear Jackie.
I am so impressed! GOOD FOR YOU YOU NOT-VOICELESS WOMAN!!!!!
2 more suggestions if you can stand it:
I wouldn't even give him the satisfaction of hearing your voice. (Even just a brief hello gives him the opportunity to "sniff for emotion (supply)" in your tone of voice.) And in case he caught you in a down moment...he does not deserve the access to you. NOPE. You took control back.
So, if you agree....then you might want to consider:
--Block Sender on email (no announcement needed, you can just do it. It's about YOU and your serenity, not about him. Who cares what he thinks/does...not interesting any more. He's so booooorrrring, like most self-absorbed Nish people....it really IS borrrrrrrring....., and
--Caller ID (if you have it, use it, okay? He doesn't deserve a hello or even 2 words of explanation about anything, much less your feelings. Your inner peace and healing are PRIVATE and as we know, he's not into staying private...eh? He spreads himself (and likely other things) around.
The man is Locked Out and you are MOVING ON.
YAY for you, Jackie. You are so right about this:
I will be OK ..
And as to Maybe he will try again -who knows?
When your mind runs back toward him again (it may, it will just need to be a conscious decision to swat that thought out of your head if it pops up)....the most important thing to say loudly to yourself, imho, is:
Maybe he will try again -who knows? CARES?????
Bravo again, Jackie. I really understand what a huge, large, life-affirming and meaningful decision this has been. I hope you respect yourself for it a great deal and hold on to the hope for your future that this choice represents.
GOOD FOR YOU!
Yay, Jackie!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D :D :D :D :D
Hops
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Good for you Jackie!!!!!!
He called to see if you were over your "mad". He may try again after a while to see if are not mad anymore--to see if he can sweet talk you back.
Nope. You are showing him that you have self respect.
I agree with Hops. If you don't have caller ID, get it or use Call Block.
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Hi, Jackie. I can tell you from close personal experience....do not bother telling him off. It won't make you feel better....except for maybe one tiny instant. Then in the next minute, you will realize (hopefully) that you are participating in an IMPOSSIBLE situation. He doens't give a damn what you think, and by "telling him off", you will be "getting him off" and I'm sure you don't want that.
My ex LIVES for this kind of exchange, because it makes him feel powerful to watch his behavoirs having an emotional effect on me. He has figured out how to do this with our shared children. He uses them as tools to get me to react. It's not pretty and I walk a fine line between diligently protecting my children and detaching from HIM personally.
You do not have any thing or anyone to keep you connected to this man in any way shape or form....unless you GIVE him that connection.
DON'T DO IT.
All of the suggestions for what to do instead of react/respond to this parasite/vampire are right on. Try one. Try the very BEST way to "tell him off">>>NEVER saying another word to him. Nothing works better or will ever be more effective.
And, by the way, congratulations. You are doing awesome. Aint it fun to be the one in charge of you???
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I do not know whether to laugh or cry-
He called me again yesterday afternoon saying that our last conversation kinda fizzled out.
HE said AGAIN that he regrets treating me bad, I asked him if he knew that he was acting badly when he dated the other woman and he just mumbled "I guess so."
He then said that he dated her because -
A. He did not get to finish his adolesence coz he had to take care of his MOM aand his drunk DAD,and had no social life back then.
B. That he was not sure that he wanted a committed and exclusive relationship with me.
C. That his six year marriage ended a year ago and then he made a deal with himself to date lots of women. When he got involved with me his plan was still incomplete.
Does any of this stuff make and moral ,ethical or emotional sense.
What's wrong with this picture?
I am still outta there !!
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Hi Jackie
I do not know whether to laugh or cry-
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It sounds like it still hurts. I hope that lessens soon, with every healthy thing you do for you. I hope you won't give him the opportunity to act badly with you anymore. Because it sounds like you really want to move on and put him behind you.
HE said AGAIN that he regrets treating me bad, I asked him if he knew that he was acting badly when he dated the other woman and he just mumbled "I guess so."
He then said that he dated her because -
A. He did not get to finish his adolesence coz he had to take care of his MOM aand his drunk DAD,and had no social life back then.
B. That he was not sure that he wanted a committed and exclusive relationship with me.
C. That his six year marriage ended a year ago and then he made a deal with himself to date lots of women. When he got involved with me his plan was still incomplete.
Does any of this stuff make and moral ,ethical or emotional sense.
What's wrong with this picture?
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What's wrong with this picture, is that you were supposed to be having a conversation about how his bad behavior affected you, and instead he turned it into a pity party for himself. imho, if there is anything narcissists know how to do, the minute you try to call them on their behavior, is turn it all back to 'poor me' and twist even the worst stuff into a sympathetic self-portrait of their own suffering. This is a guy who just fed you 3 'poor me' reasons to date another woman! Because it really is all about him. Three good reasons, btw, he needs a therapist more than the 'lots of women' he's after.
I am still outta there !!
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If you really are outta there, Jackie, the single best thing you could do is stop taking his calls. Period. Because as long as you do, you're making yourself available to him, and he sees you as someone he might still suck back in. If I were you, I would take him at his word: he is a 40-year-old adolescent who can only mumble 'I guess so' about acting badly and hurting your feelings.
Meaning, there's no reason he wouldn't do it all again given another chance. I wouldn't wish that on you. In the words of my dear Mom, (who knows more about narcissism than she'd like): good luck to him, but this guy should go sh*& in his hat, Jackie.
I hope you keep listening to your own strong voice and building on every little step you take, every good inch of healing.
Take good care,
LoH
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LoH is completely right, Jackie:
If you really are outta there, Jackie, the single best thing you could do is stop taking his calls. Period. Because as long as you do, you're making yourself available to him, and he sees you as someone he might still suck back in. If I were you, I would take him at his word: he is a 40-year-old adolescent who can only mumble 'I guess so' about acting badly and hurting your feelings.
Have to say my heart sank when I realized you'd hooked into having a conversation with him. You're not outta there if you're still talking or listening to him. The satisfaction of delivering a scolding and getting a babyish acknowledgment doesn't sound like the dialogue of two equal adults...it sounded more like mommy scolds Tommy.
It doesn't matter if he sheepishly acknowledged that he guessed his behavior wasn't ... whatever it was he half-assedly acknowledged. He just listed three reasons you can absolutely, foolproofly, count on him repeating that behavior if you continue to entangle yourself with him in any way, shape or form.
It's up to you...but I would be extremely careful about the perils of sexual loneliness or yearning right now. And if you're not serious about cutting off contact, then also be aware that you are making a deliberate choice to waste more of your precious time. And precious energy. And precious opportunity to create a happy life.
Did I mention I hope you will read the book Men Who Can't Love, by Steven Carter? It's available in paperback, used, for a pittance.
he made a deal with himself to date lots of women. When he got involved with me his plan was still incomplete.
This would be ludicrous if it weren't so insulting: picture a large billboard that says, you're good enough to screw, but not good enough to alter my "plan". This man is not capable of loving you, is not into you except to use you for sex, is NOW trying to hook you back into wanting him (N-supply) and you're listening.
What's wrong with this picture is that you placed yourself in it again by taking his call and asking him that question, which gave him the opening to give you these insulting and lame-ass explanations, which left you essentially, more manipulated and rejected than before. You can stop the damage right now though, if you want to.
(I'm usually nicer than this -- please forgive my snappish tone...the reason behind that is that I relate so closely to your pattern with him and would practically remove a toe to prevent another woman, especially a perfectly terrific woman in her 40s, waste another minute of her precious life time in a N-dead end like that.)
best of luck,
Hopalong
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Jackie,
Does any of this stuff make and moral ,ethical or emotional sense.
What's wrong with this picture?
IF he had presented his situation to you from day one and was honest about wanting to date a number of people, needing to spread his wings a bit, etc., THEN I would say there was nothing wrong with the picture. I understand that because I felt the same way after my divorce. But the difference is, that I never presented myself as someone who was ready to have an exclusive relationship, nor did I engage in casual sex. I dated to have fun, meet some new people, and learn what it was like to go out with men with whom I did not have a commited relationship. He never gave you the opportunity to decide if you were OK with the arrangement, or that it wouldn't work for you and you would choose to not get involved with him or at least not be sexual.
For the first four months that I dated my now b/f, we were very casual, both knowingly dated other people and kept the relationship out of the bedroom. It gave us the opportunity to get to know each other without all the angst of trying to make it a romance. We became good friends and really liked one another before we became exclusive and then intimate. We learned to love things about one another before we determined we were in love. We did not admit our love to each other until we had been exclusive for 2 months--which was 6 months after the relationship had begun.
I had been severely damaged and hurt by my exnh. I needed time to heal and regain the ability to trust another man. I'm not suggesting that I have done it perfectly, but the way I entered my current relationship has turned out very well for me. I know I can trust him and trust that he truly loves me because he has NEVER given me a reason not to in the 16 months we have been together.
I caught my exh in lies while we were dating--some of them big--but I let it go and thought it was just that one (2, 3, 4) situation(s). Well, 22 years later and 2 children and I found out he had been lying and hiding very significant things from me for virtually the whole marriage. Liars are always liars. They don't change. As long as you keep forgiving them, they will promise to never do it again, but they do--over and over again, about bigger and bigger things.
I agree with Hops (she usually is really nice, but sometimes gets bossy when she knows she's right). Don't take any more calls, e-mails, or any other forms of communication. He is an adolescent who just wants his own way. Your best means of revenge is to move on and get healthy and happy. Eventually he will be a blip on your radar screen--that hopefully presented you with a good learning experience.
Brigid
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Does any of this stuff make and moral ,ethical or emotional sense.
No. His excuses are immoral, unethical and emotionally juvenile.
Let him finish his adolescence on someone else; assuming he ever does finish it.
Usually there is a truckload of trash that isn't revealed when an operator starts confessing how wounded and confused he is in order to reel someone back in.
Hops and Brigid are correct; cut the cord completely.
mud
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Jackie,
Just wanted to add that I'm sorry I sounded so scolding.
It's just frustration.
I know exactly (by heart, and by the book) what you're going through.
I hope you will find strength and personal determination sooner than I did.
It is hard to change this habit. But cold-turkey's the only, imo.
((((Jackie))))
Hops
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His guy can operate!!
His text message from 8am-
"I feel you with me !
It is that unique feeling that is spellbinding :
It is the thoughts of loss of that experience which cause pain "
Not very elegant English expression for a 40' something teacher ?
I love hitting 'DELETE'.
Jackie.>
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Jackie
His text message is still only talking about himself isn't it. He isn't concerned about you at all.
Block him from sending more messages. The others are right. You may have a weak moment later on and he knows that. Every time you communicate with him, you give him hope that he is winning the game of drawing you back in.