Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Pat on February 04, 2004, 05:06:27 PM
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My husband and I both have very narcissistic and quite elderly mothers. They are both widows. I have 4 siblings and my husband is an only child. Both of our mothers have their birthdays in January. I sent my mother a couple of books that I thought she might like and my husband sent his mother flowers. (They both live 600 miles from us). When I called my mother on her birthday she said, "what kind of a book is that supposed to be, what did you send that to me for?" I started to explain why I thought she might find it interesting and then it hit me. She was somehow disappointed by what I had sent and instead of just dealing with that she did "the N thing" like, "what kind of a stupid present was that!"
A couple of days dater my husband called his mother. She informed him that she didn't want any more flowers that included containers because she didn't want them lying around the apartment. Furthermore he was, from here on in, only to send crysanthanums because they were the only flowers that lasted.
Big surprize my husband an I found each other! Wonder what we'll get them next year!
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My MIL (now dead) did the same thing. Complained about gifts and flowers. "Flowers die, why did you waste your money?" The solution: no more gifts, just send a card or a gift certificate. Or nothing at all. I didn't give my mother a present last birthday because she said I was "too old" for birthday gifts. Well, she's older than I am.
bunny
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My mother does the same thing. My brother bought her new clothes for Christmas, and she threw them in the top of her closet and refused to wear them because she didn't like them. If you buy her flowers she just says, "Don't waste your money on these because they just die." A potted plant gets, "Don't waste your money on this because I'll just kill it." I bought her a new blanket for her bed that she wanted, and she took it back and got the money back. Next year, I'm just giving her money. Surely she can't complain about that.
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bye
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I am wondering if this oneriness is not a symptom of simply old age and nothing to do with Narcissism as so many old people get "mean" and cranky and nothing pleases them. We will be there, too, if we are lucky, that is.
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One N trait that I read about on another website describes N's giving really bad gifts. I think it claimed they only give gifts that they think you need -- not something they think you would enjoy having.
This one make me roll because my Nmom is truly terrible at gift giving. I usually get 2-seasons-old clothes from the clearance rack at Marshall's.
This past Christmas I got a treature -- a 5x magnifying mirror. Talk about an N projection!
Have any of you received gifts from your N that really made you laugh?
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I find the similarities in this flower discussion to be quite amazing. Here’s my contribution. I sent my mother some flowers for Mothers day 2002. She was pissed at me before I sent them and had previously sent me an ugly email. She gets the flowers and emails me the following short and to the point acknowledgment:
Thank you for the flowers for Mothers Day. They were beautiful and done in the best of taste as usual. Mom
I said:
You are most welcome. I am glad you liked them, I thought you might throw them away after reading your last email, but I am glad you did not! I told the florist it was OK to “go wild” which they always love.
Her response:
If I left the impression in my thank you note that everything was alright you are very mistaken. I would acknowledge a gift that anyone sent me. I am nobody's doormat and until I am so feeble I can't, I will stand up for myself and your Dad. If we did any major thing wrong it was to do too much for you. Mom
I assured her that No, she had not left that impression. Can’t you just “Feel the Love?” I haven’t felt the desire to send her any flowers since.
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simon,
After she sent you an ugly email, you sent her flowers. She thanked you (sincerely, it seems) and then you said something "provocative" to her. This may perpetuate the dynamic that goes back and forth. Know what I mean?
bunny
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Hi bunny,
I guess you mean I was provoking her by suggesting that she might throw them away? My intent was not to provoke her, but apparently it definitely did. She has reacted in this exact same way to my sibings gifts of flowers as well, stating that she would "acknowledge a gift that anyone sent." She is trying to say "I got your flowers, but I am still pissed at you and don't you forget it (But I have good manners and would acknowledge a gift from anyone.)" But it is interesting to me to get your perspective that it read as provocative to you. I had not ever thought of that.
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bye
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You were allowing her a way to slam you more.
Yes, apparently I was, and she did!
She obviously took offense at the remark - I was trying to open a door and she did not take it that way at all. I had also included a little chatty family update about the kids etc (which I omitted from this post.) I did this hoping to test the waters and maybe open a door. Instead the opposite happened.
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N mothers are not going to be happy until you are groveling at their feet, begging for their attention and forgiveness (at least in their sick mind's eye) and they are once again sitting on their throne with all the stage lights shining upon them, with all their subjects (jesters) waiting with baited breath to once again be in their good graces and charming presence, (presents).
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Simon,
Your email to her (which I reread) has a "mixed message." On one hand, it is very warm especially where you told the florist to go wild. On the other hand, you referred to an idea that she might throw away the flowers, even though she said nothing of the kind in her thanks to you. You are correct that she's capable of this. But it's somewhat "provocative" to mention it after she has apparently thanked you sincerely. Possibly she was trying to "repair" the damage of her email by being nice about the flowers you sent. And your comment didn't allow her to make the repair, so she counterattacked viciously, wreaking more damage. I'm not saying she didn't deserve your comment, but making such a remark may perpetuate this dynamic of insecurity, anger, and inability to repair damage. Does this make any sense..?
bunny
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As I read the first few posts on the comments made when flowers are received - 'don't waste your money' etc, - it occurred to me that they are saying something we rarely 'hear' - that THEY are not good enough for the gift, that the gifts are too good for them.
People can be rejecting because of the guilt, shame and inadequacy that a gift can throw up.
My mother still writes to me on the backs of envelopes and scraps of paper - even tho I've known that she's got pretty notepaper - and I sent her some myself for Xmas.
My husband pointed out that it's the wartime mentality, the opposite of abundant thinking, that makes her refuse to have and to use the good things. She is afraid that there won't be enough so she doesn't allow herself any - she's saving it all up for a rainy day (and when the rainy day comes she'll be saving it up for an even rainier day!).
R
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bye
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Simon,
My take on it, is that it is not really that you shouldn't send her flowers anymore or that she didn't appreciate them. It had nothing to do with the flowers. You re-opened the tension regarding the previous discussion that you had before sending the flowers, by mentioning your thoughts of her throwing them out because of that prior exchange.
She was reacting to the prior exchange that you had enlivened once again.
What's done is done, though it would have been best to keep any dialogue from the gift of the flowers completely separate from the previous tense discussion. They were two unrelated situations.
Under the circumstances, I can at least understand where her reply was coming from.
Hope you can work out the initial tension though...
All the best.
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bye
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"Brother" Simon,
You did exactly what I always do. You braced yourself for a fight, and almost by auto-programming inadvertantly instigated it. This is what I am learning not to do anymore. We are so preprogrammed from their years of manipulation that we anticipate it before it happens. That is what you read into her "sincere" thank you. You reacted.
The hardest part of my learning process this last two months has been to acknowledge now that I have to take some responsiblity for what happens to me. I think you need to do that too. I confronted her (free ticket to the theatre thread), she acknowledged she was wrong, but has not changed one little bit. The only thing that is different is that she is respecting the boundaries I have set, albiet begrudgingly. But it has become painfully obvious to me that she still doesn't really "get it", even with a simple statement she made the other day when we were out, "maybe after the baby you won't be so hard on your mother" WHAT? How am I hard on her? Because I expect her to treat me and my husband and family with RESPECT???!!! It made it loud and clear to me that all that apologizing she had done a month ago was not sincere - it was out of fear of abandonment. To admit that to myself I think has been harder than the confrontation itself - because now I am faced with having to take responsiblity for it from this point forward.
I am positive that had you taken the thank you email at face value, this would not have happened - at least not at this point in time. Try to remove yourself from the fact that this is your mother. If you had sent the flowers to a coworker, or a friend - would you have responded to that same thank you message differently? My guess is you probably would have sent one back saying simply "your welcome" or not even acknowledge it all all, because it wouldn't have been necessary.
It is hard for us to admit, but your reaction spoke loud and clear - on some level you are still needing her approval. You were subconsciously digging for it. And Simon, may I be as bold to assume that possibly - you were using what we learned from our dear N mothers to manipulate a little, by saying "I thought you might throw them away".... Could you possibly have been trying to make her feel guilty for being angry at you for the other situation?? It is easy to recognize in you because I see myself in you. I might have done something like this in the past - a hidden "see, I really am a good boy because I sent you flowers, don't you feel bad now for abusing me?" The child within us, Simon. I haven't figured out how not to need the approval yet, but when I do... I will clue you in for sure!
I have been working furiously on this in therapy. My counselor says that really the only true way to break away emotionally is to spend less time with her. Distancing myself from my mother has been the hardest thing I've ever done. I have been so entwined, so needy for her approval for so long - it seems almost impossible to break away from this. But slowly I have reduced our time together. I have not been available every single Friday - in fact I have cancelled three visits since Christmas. May not seem like a lot to others, but it is HUGE for me, because we have been spending Fridays together for over 5 years.
Anyway sorry got off on a tangent there...
Just a few random thoughts.
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CC,
Your messages are full of insight. Just wonderful.
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I can relate to what you said CC. We should not be returning the missiles directed at us but it is hard to recognise them after so many years in the battlefield because it's just 'normal' behaviour (bothways). And I'm certain until we stop seeking their approval it remains stuck there. I had 'one of those' phone calls (as my brother and I used to call them) with my mother about 4 months ago. She was trying to get me to do something her way and when I explained why I thought my way suited me better she got angry and escalated into her attack mode. The difference this time though was that I didn't get angry and defensive. I remained calm and collected. Out of the blue I said to her, 'Mum, I don't need your approval anymore. You live your life and I'll live mine." The thing is, it didn't matter whether she heard me or not, it was a moment for me to realise that I really didn't need to run everything past her for her approval. It was something I had to learn.
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CC, Guest Y, Karin, Phoenix, everyone:
Thanks for all your responses. This was not something that I sat around and thought about too much, but all of your insightful comments have given me a new perspective as I re-think the event. CC, I especially appreciate your thoughts, particularly the idea that our own need for someone else's approval often causes our own pain. As you say, it is the child in us that get our feelings hurt. If we (the child) could eternally and forever let go of our need for parental approval, how could they hurt us? (Do let me know if you figure out how to do this!)
Again, thanks to you all. This board is a great help.
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If we (the child) could eternally and forever let go of our need for parental approval, how could they hurt us?
Eternally and forever is unlikely to happen. The need for approval can be diminished a lot, usually in therapy.
bunny