Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Magnolia on July 14, 2006, 06:49:32 PM
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Taken from medicalnewstoday.com
Narcissism Victim Syndrome, A new diagnosis?
17 Jul 2004
Do you see a preponderance of middle aged women in your practices with no particular physical disease process, yet a variety of physical and/or emotional complaints, including: insomnia, weight loss or gain, depression, anxiety, phobias, broken bones, lacerations, or bruises? Some may report an overwhelming feeling of emptiness or doom. Others may talk about or attempt suicide.
These patients are frequently rather nervous, with a guilt-ridden, anxious look and effect. They may appear restless, worried, and/or demonstrate a fake laugh that seems to hide something else.
In extreme cases they may describe sudden outbursts of rage with accompanying violence. They may have even been arrested for assault on their spouse. A few of them are men.
Who are these patients and how did they get this way? While there may be many situations with similar symptoms, it is important to recognize these may be "Victims of Narcissists" and they need your help. While narcissism itself has been a diagnosis in the DSM - IV, psychiatry's complete reference, little to nothing has been written in the medical literature surrounding those who live with the narcissist … and the torturous lives they live. And there are many of them out there.
Narcissism is a broad spectrum of behaviors. On a scale of 1 - 10, Healthy Narcissism is a one, and Pathological Narcissism, or Narcissistic Personality Disorder, (NPD) is a 10.
Healthy Narcissism is something we all can use. It's having a healthy self-esteem. It's what makes us pick ourselves up after experiencing failure and going on towards the next goal. It's what gives us the ability to help each other, and to love someone - as we already know how to love ourselves.
Yet, Pathological Narcissism is an ironic twist of this healthy state. Outwardly, it appears that these people love themselves too much - to the exclusion of anyone else. It is as if they are God himself and those around them must recognize their omnipotence, supreme knowledge, and absolute entitlement and power. Rules don't apply to them. They have an unrealistic and overblown sense of self, often without the credentials to match, as well as fantasies of unlimited power, success, and/or brilliance. They are interpersonally exploitive and have absolutely no understanding of empathy or compassion.
They are neither kind nor benevolent gods. And those who live with them end up paying the price.
While there is a range of narcissistic behaviors lying between level 1 and 10 on this scale, one doesn't need to have full-blown NPD to do incredible damage to those in the inner circle.
While victims of Narcissists are generally codependents, most have no idea how they got in this situation, because in the early stages of the relationship the Narcissistic person can be the most charming, Academy Award winning actor or actress (according to the DSM-IV, 50-75% of narcissists are men), of the century.
The early days of the dating is fast, furious, and vastly romantic. Oftentimes marriage proposals come within a few weeks. The "victim" sees the narcissist as the "Perfect Partner". She's never met someone so wonderful in her lifetime and falls head-over-heels in love. The two go on to live happily ever after - or so she thinks - until the "real" partner surfaces. The once wonderful Dr. Jekyll turns into the dangerous Mr. Hyde who quickly instills fear, anxiety, uncertainty, and total confusion to the relationship.
The change can be quick and powerful or slow and insidious.
We are all way too familiar with overt narcissists: those abusive husbands who send thousands of battered women to the emergency room each year. They feel it is their God-given right to beat, abuse, and otherwise threat their partner in whatever method they deem necessary and no one can tell them otherwise.
Then there is the verbally abusive and controlling narcissist … the one who uses emotional abuse as his weapon of choice. He tells his victim who she can see, what time she needs to be home, and when she can go to bed. Or in the case of Jamie, whose husband makes her recite every day, "I'm only worth 29 cents - the price of a bullet," he erodes her self-worth to nothing to keep her under his control.
Who else could possible want such a worthless woman as she? With that belief, she will never leave him for good, although she makes many brief attempts to do so. She always returns. The brainwashing that continues day after day is emotionally exhausting, draining, and vastly unhealthy.
Yet almost worse is the "Stealth Narcissist," so sinister and silent in his ability to drive his partner crazy that she doesn't suspect anything bad is happening until it's too late. He is the master of the little digs … "Honey, why on earth would you cook eggs in butter? NO ONE does it that way. What's wrong with you?" Or, "If you'd only do what I say then we'd both be happy."
He issues the "silent treatment" when he is slighted, punishing his family by ignoring them for hours, leaving them wondering what they did "wrong" to make him act this way. He may "forget" birthday or Christmas presents, year after year. He may show up hours late and his partner is just supposed to understand, with no explanation even offered. He may have another woman on the side and feel quite entitled to do so.
Yet, to those outside his inner kingdom he looks like a saint. He probably is president of the Rotary, volunteers at a food bank, and contributes regularly to charity … all to attain the image of being the admired Superman of his community.
No matter which type of narcissist he is, the end result is the same … a slow, insidious, breaking down of the self-esteem of his victims until there's next to nothing left, at which point, the narcissist will frequently throw his partner out in order to look for someone new and full of life to make his next target. Leaving his victim an emotional wreck wondering what she did to destroy their once "perfect" relationship.
The Narcissist himself rarely changes. After all, if you believe you're God-like, you must be perfect. Why should you change your behavior for anyone else? Yet the biggest secret is that deep inside, he loathes himself, and is desperate that no one find out who the "real" person is inside his tough, outer shell.
Victims are not only spouses. They can be coworkers, employees, children, or friends of narcissists. When the narcissist is the victim's mother, it's a difficult spot to be in, as most children (even grown children) find it almost impossible to leave the relationship. And the abuse continues for years.
However, when the narcissist is your patient's boss, coworker, or friend, it may be wise to counsel the victim to seek a new situation elsewhere to best avoid an emotional roller coaster ride that could lead to extreme health issues down the road.
How can you help those with Narcissism Victim Syndrome? First, by asking questions to determine what is going on in their environment. Health care professionals already know the effect that stress has on so many of us, but the added stress of living with a narcissist is rarely understood or recognized by the victims themselves. Knowledge is power and by asking the right questions about their situation, you might be able to help them begin to better recognize their problem and seek help.
You can help them quit being victims, quit blaming themselves for all that's wrong in their relationships, gain knowledge of this disorder, and regain their personal power. Help them to seek counseling from a therapist knowledgeable about narcissism, (not all are, and few fully understand victim issues at all - see www.helpfromsurvivors.com), in order to rebuild their shattered self-esteem and stop looking and acting like a caged animal.
Help them find hope, before years of stuffing their anger due to this abusive treatment, leads them to venting in unhealthy ways, sometimes leading to domestic violence and police intervention. Help them to stop looking like the sick one in the relationship and to start down the road of being a survivor and no longer a victim. Help them escape symptoms of depression that may, in some cases, lead to suicide.
Learn all you can about the "Narcissism Victim Syndrome". You might light a glimmer of hope for someone who's just barely hanging on for dear life.
Mary Jo Fay, RN, MSN is a national speaker, author, columnist and survivor of several narcissistic relationships. Her new book, "When Your Perfect Partner Goes Perfectly Wrong - Loving or Leaving the Narcissist in Your Life" is available at http://www.helpfromsurvivors.com or http://www.outoftheboxx.com. She can be reached at 303-841-7691.
Copyright by Mary Jo Fay, RN, MSN
Mary Jo Fay
author of ...
When Your "Perfect Partner" Goes Perfectly Wrong ...
Loving or Leaving the Narcissist in Your Life
and
Get Out Of Your Boxx! But First Don't Forget to ...
Drive the Carpool, Call Your Client, and Make Love to Your Spouse.
http://www.outoftheboxx.com
303-841-7691
Out of the Boxx, Inc.
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Thanks Magnolia.
Mary Jo gives a seminar down in Mexico (I believe), she has a newletter too, that I subscribe too since I find her funny and enlightening. I'm curious if anyone here has attended any of her talks/seminars?
I would go myself, but I think it's geared more to women married to N's rather than adult children of Ns? My T was telling me about another intensive weeklong retreat for codependents that is local, that I think I might like better too - if I had the motivation, courage, and could get the time off work...
pb
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I praise the LORD that it's finally been given a name.
Today, at the restaurant I own, there was a black man and his wife with a little baby, not even a year old...they were both screaming at the child, who was crying due to hunger.
The couple ordered food from my restaurant, while simultaneously threatening the child with "if you don't stop I'm gonna beat your a** when we get home!" The mother said "I don't know WHY she is crying!" The idiot man said "cause she want her A** whooped; she's due for a beatin anyway!"
I immediately went in the back of the restaurant while my husband and daughter handled the rest of the order, to prevent me from LOSING IT AND JUMPING OVER THE COUNTER AND UTTERLY RIPPIN THE GUY APART! I called 911, reported them both, the police came, gave em a smack on the hand and apologized for interrupting their meal. I WAS FURIOUS and STILL AM!
The idiot guy and his ditzy b of a wife continued to berate that little baby with threats. I could hear what they were saying to the child and then they were getting down in her face and threatening her quietly with their looks and eyes. At one point the "mother" and I say that LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSELY, said to the baby "you better ACT YOUR AGE!!!"
I can't put into words what I feel right now over this. I know I did the best I could do by reporting it, but the police did NOTHING!!! That baby may be the next statistic for all I know!~!!
The idiot came up to me after it and said "can you believe someone reported me for spanking my child...they said I said I was gonna spank her!" I said to him, "well you DID say that!" He said "this baby? well do you have kids? you spank em don't ya?" I said "that child is not old enough to be spanked though!" He said "i never spanked her a day in her life...you kiddin, if I just smack her fingers she cries so hard she vomits!" (I wasn't buyin it!) So, finally he walked away.
UGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
~Laura
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Me too, I hope the naming spreads.
Laura, I am so very sorry you went through that today.
This is a wrenching, horrible thing.
You were so good and strong and right to report them. Gutsy enough to really witness.
If you see them again and can get their license plate, you can call Child Protective Services.
They willl do a home visit (unannounced) on the basis of an anonymous call. I believe it's the law that any reports of child abuse must be checked out.
Bless you (from that baby, who couldn't say so).
Hops
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Thanks for the info and link, Magnolia. This was how it all began with my ex- husband:
Yet almost worse is the "Stealth Narcissist," so sinister and silent in his ability to drive his partner crazy that she doesn't suspect anything bad is happening until it's too late. He is the master of the little digs … "Honey, why on earth would you cook eggs in butter? NO ONE does it that way. What's wrong with you?"
The ambient abuse snuck up on me, until it reached the point where I recognized ... no matter how hard I tried or how much progress I made, it was never enough, and it was never right. I was never right. That's when I spoke up and the abuse became more overt... complete with physical threats.
Here's a link to one of Sam V's articles on ambient abuse, for anyone who may be wondering about that. This very info really woke me up to some harsh realities years ago; it's where I first heard of NPD and began to stumble toward freedom. Disorientation was this particular N's method of choice. To quote Sam V, "The abuser subverts the target's focus by disagreeing with her way of perceiving the world, her judgment, the facts of her existence, by criticizing her incessantly - and by offering plausible but specious alternatives. By constantly lying, he blurs the line between reality and nightmare."
I thank God every day for bringing me out of that deadly fog.
Hope
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Hi ReallyMe,
This sounds awful and I'm just wondering why no one else reacted to the situation. Were any other patrons upset? Was anyone happy that you called the police? It's incredible that no one would stand up for an infant being screamed at! I'm glad you did.
I'm just wondering why you mentioned the race of the man. Was there some reason? Were the woman and the baby black also? Do you think that had some bearing on the situation?
Plucky
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Plucky,
That was a good question about why I mentioned the race of the man. I am not a racist at all...some of if not MOST of my closest friends growing up were African American children. I guess I do distinguish behaviors with race sometimes, especially since I do know that the Black culture often tends to be rather violent and intolerant with their children for some reason, from my experience.
Other people didn't notice or didn't care that the baby was being screamed at and threatened, so no, I don't know if anyone was glad I called the Police. Nobody actually knew I was the one who called, which was how I preferred it to be. I don't want to be beat up or stalked myself for having made the report.
All three of the people were African Americans.
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I am not a racist at all...I do know that the Black culture often tends to be rather violent and intolerant with their children for some reason, from my experience.
wow. Do you see what is wrong with this, ReallyMe?
Do you currently have any non-white friends? I mean real friends, not someone you work with or have as a neighbor but don't socialise.
Plucky
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Plucky,
Yes I have a very close, intimate black friend, actually, and even SHE screams and belittles her children. It is in the culture, no matter what you say about it or how much you love them, most of them were raised in an aggressive environment, seeing their mothers and sisters and brothers beaten by a domineering parent...that's been shown throughout history too...why that is? I'm not sure...displaced aggression from the slavery days maybe? I don't know, but I've seen it for years.
~Laura
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Magnolia
What a great article... the stealth narcissisist I think is the closest to describing my dad...
RM - What a horrible day for you! I'm speechless how anyone can treat a baby like that.
Take care
H&H xx
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ReallyMe,
That is interesting. What other things have you observed about black culture?
Plucky
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I think generalizations such as this are pernicious so I'm glad you said "in my experience":
the Black culture often tends to be rather violent and intolerant with their children for some reason, from my experience
Racism is a thing that scalds my heart intensely. Even in its subtler forms. So this is difficult to say but I feel that in my town I have observed some of this too. I know I sometimes feel sad when I see young African American mothers walking with their children, and there's no contact, no handholding. I sense a lot of disengagement.
Nobody can prove this is generally true to my satisfaction, but I'm a firm believer that it CLASS differences are far greater than those of ethnicity. And I have known, and do know, many loving devoted African American parents.
I have a theory (not original). This is two things:
--depression (economic or social) dampens people's joy in their children. When you're poor and exhausted from working two jobs, it's harder to find the energy to dote and delight in your infants.
--there is much internalized self-loathing in the black culture, a direct legacy of slavery and racism. I was at the social justice Impact meeting I mentioned on another thread last night, and a teacher friend told a heartbreaking anecdote. She was working with a little boy, trying to engage him in a specific learning...and he was very sweet but didn't respond. Then he just said, naturally and with no air of pain (as though it were just part of the world like the weather): "Miss __, I can't do that, I'm not white."
When I think of the burdens still carried in the psyche...I think there is intense yearning for your children to succeed, but what if you see them over and over, generation after generation, fall deeper into poverty, hopelessness and violence?
We have 25% of African American men locked up over here!!!!
This is part irresponsibility, part hopelessness, part habitual estrangement from the optimistic american-dream vision. In inner cities especially, they are no fools. The dream's not including them, and all the money's going....
Am I ranting? :oops:
Sorry. But you know...it's interesting the title of this thread. If you looked at a whole country/culture as N...who would be its victims?
Hops
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Where I live, an upper class suburb which is at least 99% white, parents seem to be afraid to actually spend time with their children. You don’t see parents yelling at them in public; they rarely speak at all. Instead you see them immersed in hand-held games and sent off with peers to amuse themselves. I spend a lot of time with my children, and the other parents constantly make comments along the lines of, ‘how can you stand it?’ and ‘I could never to do that’. They sign their children up for every possible activity and drop them off, or a nanny does it, and in between, they have ‘play dates’ arranged so that the parents rarely actually have to be alone with their own children. On vacation, they are entertained by a DVD or television in the car or hotel, and sent off to activities while the parents relax doing adult things. I sense a lot of disengagement.
The children show few manners or kindness towards new children in their group, and little respect for adults. I see much bullying and rudeness. By the time they are teens, the children have a peer group which has replaced the family in either supporting their involvement in drugs and sex, or bolstering each other as well as they can against the pressures to engage in such, and the parents know little about what they are doing, thinking, or being.
I see this all the time. Should I wonder why American white people do not love their children or want to be close to them? Could I suppose it can be explained by the fact that the inhabitants of the United States are descendants of criminals and outcasts in their countries of origin? That they were also people who felt it was justified to kill and steal to obtain land and goods, and also saw nothing wrong with kidnapping and enslaving large numbers of people and subjecting them to horrific treatment in order to profit from their labour?
While we’re at it, can we come up with a construct for Asians and Africans? Canadians? Inuits? Cowboys? Hairdressers?
All it takes to create a hostile environment is for one person to express a hostile opinion, and all the others to keep quiet.
a disappointed
Plucky
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ReallyMe, with tears, THANK YOU for calling the police. And thanks Hops for saying what you did about Child Protective Services. And thanks Magnolia for the article.
Anansi
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Thank you, Sugarre. You're right....my response was way too soft.
The word in my reply that mattered was perniciious, but I was trying to get there slowly.
I think the word in your post that mattered most, RM, was "they".
When I hear "they"--and "their"--such as from my mom, who is unconsciously racist---my ears stand up.
It is so subtle, but that's it.
"They" means a generalization about a class or race.
Trouble is, I think, there is sometimes a germ of truth in some characteristic or other about an ethnic group. Some of the adjectives are positive and affirming or affectionate, some negative and belittling. Either way, it's terribly hard to be PC all the time because it can stifle language.
BUT. I'm with you completely when it comes to tarring everyone (any "them") of any group with the same brush.
The French have great style and understand food...and they're snobs and tolerant of adultery.
See what I mean? How can we compliment stereotypical positive characteristics and never acknowledge or address negative ones...
I guess if the negative ones were used to awaken, inspire, and rouse to action, rather than shame...
Thank you for your passionate post, Sugarre.
Hops
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Thank you too, Plucky.
I see much of this in spoiled suburban white kids too...but in my town it seems more often to be OVER-engagement on the part of the parents. Sort of so engaged with racking up the activities that the children turn into social objects to be shuttled and hustled from one thing to the next. Used as vehicles for the parents' status-seeking.
By mentioning a "construct" about some African Americans, I did not mean to be racist. At all.
I hate it as much as I hate sexism.
It is a truth that sometimes I am surprised to see young mothers not holding their child's hand. I'm sorry if I shouldn't have said so...but I try hard to imagine why it's sometimes that way. I think sometimes such thoughts are forbidden, but it's better to get them out and look at them.
Maybe my careless writing in that post did show racist leakage (I am a southern white person and for all my agonizing over race issues since childhood, I know I still have unconscious racist thoughts. I catch them in my head at times--things like, watch out, here come a loud group of male black teenagers, and I tense up sometimes. I literally scold myself...but I don't pretend the thoughts are never there. It's white privilege that I'm working on now...coming at it from that angle seems to improve my awareness). My town is still quite segregated and I rant about it among well-intentioned do-good friends a lot. And I have known it to be wrong since my protected, mostly-white-world childhood.
I have made friends of all sorts. But the gulf is there.
It's very painful but it's good to talk about it, make mistakes, call each other on them.
Thank you too, Plucky.
Hops
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Sugarre,
Thank you. very much. for weighing in. I was beginning to feel very very worried out here. I was thinking that there was not even one person who even saw anything wrong with what was said. Now I know there is one! Still it is concerning. I can only imagine what someone might think whose race is directly targetted by these negative stereotypes. I know in that case I might not be able to feel supported up on the board any more, especially knowing that it was a non-issue to most, or even worse, they agree.
Thank you Hoppy for trying to respond, though I have to say I found your response unsatisfying too. But I appreciate that you took the time to consider the issue and write down your thoughts.
There have been a few experiences that have opened my eyes and I want to share one.
I was on a train in the east coast of the US some years ago. A group of three young African American boys was on the crowded train. when the conductor got to them, it turned out they had bought the wrong kind of ticket, a very easy thing to do as the ticket machine was complex. It happened all the time.
The conductor, an older white man, was clearly very uncomfortable wth them and began to get agitated, apparently assuming that they had done it on purpose in order to skip the fare. He raised his voice and acted more and more excited, ignoring anything the kids were saying.
One of them said to him in a calm clear voice, ok, let's just keep it down, and we can work this out.
He then realised, I guess, that he was overrreacting, and calmed down, calculated how much more they would have to pay, and the transaction was completed.
The youngsters were no more than 14 or so...they were wearing school uniforms.
Can you imagine the presence of mind that child had to have? And would have to continue to have to survive in his world? The constant slings and arrows he will have to shrug off? Can you imagine having to prepare your son to cope with people who will feel irrational fear at just the sight of him? Who will automatically assume the worst about him in the most innocuous of situations?
Now that I have children, I just mourn for all the times that something will go wrong and somebody's son will go down the tubes.
Plucky
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PS Magnolia, I am sorry to have hijacked your thread. I got caught up.
Plucky
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Plucky,
I feel badly that you may be misunderstanding me...
I talk about race awareness, racist experience, a LOT. With my black friends and white. I am often the first person to bring it up. I have raised a stink at my church because of my fury over some unaware signals.
It is painful to be "graded". I really was trying to think out loud through some things I see. I risk being misunderstood. I am more sensitized than you may realize. To me there is a similar horror in seeing the way young girls behave. I feel great pain over it, and it's more han "liberal guilt."
I grew up watching black people be demeaned. I was horrifed by it. Every time I went anywhere in this town. It was the main reason I insisted on going to college in a more northern city.
It has haunted and troubled my relationship to my home town and does to this day. I was in a passionate discussion about how it's only slightly under the surface, just two nights ago.
I went to the Impact meeting because of the despair and frustration I've felt about it. I've gone and whammed nails at a Habitat site and despaired because there was unconscious segregation even among the dogooders. WHILE WE WERE BUILDING THE HOUSE. I went and tried to share my lunch with the equity builders and they were uncomfortable. To bridge the gap without condescension is horribly difficult. Sometimes we just have to be honest and let our misperceptions show.
This issue is America's torture --the world's-- and has a large space in my soul.
I am sure I posted sloppily and inadequately there...I hope you can try to have some faith in me though.
I wanted to acknowledge RM's empathy for the child. I didn't know what was coming next. It did disturb me. Sorry I didn't react quickly or correctly. I'm very tired and not feeling mentally sharp.
I have had more moments of awareness like yours on the train than I can count. Crazy pain.
I should have known better than to air tricky thoughts like that on a board, though. I do wish you knew me...here, in my community.
I am glad you are very sensitized to stereotypes and I appreciate you pointing out how easily one can slide into them without great, great care.
Hops
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I'm sorry Hopalong,
and thank you for pointing out that I did not pay attention of much of what you said. You deserve points for considering the situation, for expressing an opinion, for being willing to expose your own issues. All of us have these issues and all I really expect is a dialogue, and you were brave enough to engage. I'm not in a position to grade anybody. I'm in horror of my own thoughts sometimes and of my own shortcomings.
I am going to stop posting about this. Because nearly no one on this board cares about it.
No more pearls before swine,
Plucky
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Plucky,
Thank you for your synopsis on the neglected children in America. I totally agree with you and will also say that children all over the world in some forms are neglected, abused, spoiled in some way. I'm majoring in Child Development in College, hoping to make the difference in a child's life in some way, or a parent's life to not affect the child. I can't stand by and watch people's lives fall apart, without at least using my voice to try and expose and stop it where I'm able.
Laura
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Thanks, ((((((((((((Plucky))))))))))))).
It's okay.
It is incredibly painful to contemplate the way human beings treat each other.
On the basis of skin color, gender, country, you name it. It really hurts. Especially when children are harmed.
I was thinking it might have been that pain talking here:
nearly no one on this board cares about it.
Because I'd bet my left foot that is not true.
Reflexes may be dulled by fatigue, lack of intercultural contact lowers awareness sometimes, moral outrage goes mute when fear bears down (what a MESS the world is in--greed and cynicism that make it hard to remember the just intentions of the Allies in WWII), and some may not be finely tuned to sub rosa racism, but a resurgent good soul/moral compass is evident to me in almost every person on the board.
I hear your anger as love for humanity and pain and frustration though.
Hops
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Because nearly no one on this board cares about it.
No more pearls before swine,
I don't think this particular comment was necessary or fair.
Pennyplant
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Not necessary because it was name-calling. Not fair because it presumes to know what people are feeling or thinking based on not having posted to the topic.
PP
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Moon...I love Baldwin too.
Another amazing writer I bet you'd like is Michael Rodriguez...check out his book called BROWN.
It's extraordinary. It's all about racism and assumptions and goes really deep into how people think. (He's Hispanic and gay. But wait until you read how he feels. It's unique and really blew my mind...)
Hops
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I am not racist
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I don't think so either, RM.
It's language. Our liberator and tripwire.
Makes me think of Bush's slip into profanity that got caught on mike. To many people in this culture it was either funny and/or embarrassing to hear him say s***, but generally a common enough phrase that it didn't make a big splash. To the Syrian ambassador, it was literally interpreted as saying that Arabs are garbage.
I am so glad we hang in and keep talking even when offending or taking offense is possible. Only things we can do with misunderstandings is look past them...as far as we can.
There are fine people and principles here.
Hops
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RM, I empathise with your outrage at that scene in your restaurant. You called them on it! Horray! That's more than so many do. Who knows .....you may have even helped more than anyone knows? Maybe you put a little scare into those people and they will reconsider their actions? (I know.....hopeful thinking eh? :roll:).
Plucky, how ya doin? Are you ok? I'm guilty. I noticed what you noticed...I read it the way you did and I kept quiet. I have excuses which I'll keep to myself. I do care, though, but I made a decision based on what else......fear ( :oops: :oops:) and didn't post until now.
Because nearly no one on this board cares about it.
No more pearls before swine,
I felt shocked and surprised when I read these words of yours. I still didn't post. I was going by the past instead of having faith in the now and the future. So now I've changed my mind. :roll: Hopefully I won't make things worse (my fear, not my intention).
I'm trying to put myself in your shoes. Did you feel all alone in voicing about RM's comment, until Sugarre stepped in behind you? I would have, I think. It's not nice feeling like the only one who sees that kind of stuff or who is willing to challenge it. It's frustrating.
The subject is a very emotional one, for you, I bet? For others too? It's almost......potentially explosive (one of the reasons I decided to let fear rule before- not wanting to get caught in the cross fire.... :oops:...
chicken arse-me! :oops:).
Only one person was brave enough.....out of all the people on this board? So anger started to rise in you Plucky? You felt like you were grading people? And you made the decision to stop posting.....first.... saying what you think and then.... throwing in an angry little dig?
I'm in horror of my own thoughts sometimes and of my own shortcomings.
Me too Plucky. Seriously. You're not alone there. I'm a sinner.
Penny wrote:
I don't think this particular comment was necessary or fair.
You're probably right Penny. On the other hand, being a person who has spoken first and thought about it later, sometimes, and one who has also reacted badly and spoken in anger, I totally relate to what Plucky might have been feeling when she wrote that. That doesn't make it right or fair but I'm glad she feels safe enough to do that here. I think that's a good thing eh?
How are you (((((Plucky)))))? Are you ok?
Sugarre wrote, in regard to remaining silent: If you don't care, that is your voice
Isn't that just a little bit .......(clears throat)......unfair?
I don't post to every thread I care about for more than one reason (one being I don't have that much time).
How can you decide that not posting or saying nothing means people don't care?
How do you know that?
I just found it peculiar that a board dedicated to exposing the self-absorbed people in our lives who have damaged us failed to pick up on a self-absorbed cultural predilection to using race and culture to explain behaviour;
Who didn't pick what up? :shock: Aren't you presuming to know....to see inside every head here?
Naw. Sugarre. People probably care. I bet they just get sick of all the "discussions" and I bet they have their reasons for not wanting to get into a hot one.
Ok.....going off to cool meeself infronta tha fan lads (and ladies too) :mrgreen: Please don't write me off as a fellow human being. I'm just not a perfect one. (waddles out....brushing away loose feathers....)
Sela
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Hi Sugarre,
To clarify, my own silence did not indicate that I do not care. I did not respond to this important topic because the passion involved overwhelmed me. I did not think anything I could say would be read without passion--I did not think I would be heard. This has happened to me here a couple of times regarding other topics. Not being heard is a sore point with me as is name-calling. Those are ways in which I was made voiceless in my childhood. Obviously those are also areas which I need to work out. But for now I choose to back off when I sense that feeling of being overwhelmed. In the past I would have just "spewed" in response and, for now, not doing that is progress for me.
I do have stories to tell regarding my opinions on racism. But I can't share those stories off the top of my head. Especially when it's a place like this and I'm not sure how they would be received and understood. Also, in some ways I feel presumptuous going on about it. One of my friends is a Native American. I feel more like a student of her life and culture. I feel very conscious of stepping on toes and do not use the idea of my friendship with her to become some kind of spokesman or advocate for her "cause". I know enough to realize that Native Americans are perfectly capable of telling their own story and being their own advocates. I have the same opinion about African Americans. It's not about me not caring. It's about me stepping back and letting someone far more capable, someone from the culture, speak for themselves.
There are a lot of topics here that I do not comment on. My silence on this particular thread was more telling of my history of being not listened to than of my opinion on the topic. My talking now has to do with my history of being called names and not with my opinion of the topic. I'm basically not ready to share my stories about racism. I don't think that means I'm advocating racism.
Sugarre, thank you for being willing to listen. I appreciate that quite a bit.
Pennyplant
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PP,
That's a good model to keep in mind when tough topics come up.
I think it's important not to fill in others' silences with
"what they must be thinking" assumptions...we can't mind-read.
(I can barely read my own, half the time.)
Hope everyone has a good Thursday,
Hops
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I’ve just read pages 2 and 3 of this thread for the first time because someone mentioned it to me privately (otherwise I might not have read these pages at all). I don’t feel emotional or inclined to comment on anything other than ask:
Plucky, what’s up? It doesn’t sound like you.
Because nearly no one on this board cares about it.
This sounds to me like it’s emotion that goes beyond this thread. Is it? Are you okay?
I’m not reading all the threads. I don’t have time and it’s too hot to think. Bye for now.
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More thoughts:
Certain Hope,
But you have no right to tell us how we should think or feel or what should be our truth.
Everyone has the right to say, to voice, what they want to here (subject to Dr G).
We can say whatever we wish; what we can’t do is control other people’s responses.
Other people can choose to feel violated or offended; or they can choose to think “it’s nothing to do with me” (not take it personally); or they can perhaps ask themselves why the person who has spoken is saying such things. There are probably other responses I haven’t thought of just now.
What do you think about these ideas?
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Certain Hope, thanks for your reply.
I agree with your statement that Everyone has the right to say, to voice, what they want to here (subject to Dr G). ........ including me.
Yes, of course including you, why not including you? And everyone has the right to respond to you as they wish.
I also agree with your statement that what we can’t do is control other people’s responses. ....... and that includes you.
Of course it includes me, why wouldn't it?
I wonder why you have chosen to point out to me what I already know?
Do you feel that I am trying to control your response and if so, why?
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I do know that the Black culture often tends to be rather violent and intolerant with their children for some reason, from my experience.
I think it is appalling that this statement is not seen as offensive, while my use of a figure of speech is heard as offensive. In case there is someone who does not know it, 'pearls before swine' is a saying that I did not make up, which means that sharing information with someone who is unable or unwilling to receive it is a waste of time. I was not calling anyone a swine.
Nor have I called anyone a racist. I do not think it valid to label anyone that way. However, racist behaviour and comments do exist, and anyone is capable of making this sort of error. Having an act of yours identified as racist is not the kiss of death. It could be a learning opportunity.
I was hoping with my questons to ReallyMe that she take another look at what she had written and perhaps say, you know I don't really believe that. Instead, she bolstered her opinion and stood behind it. That was really disappointing. ReallyMe, I hope you will reconsider this stance, mainly in light of how sweeping it is. That alone is what racism consists of to me - making generalisations on the basis of race along with our limited personal experience. It is very tempting to do.
Since you have a close friend who is African American, how about you run that statement by her and see how she feels? At the same time, have you expressed your opinion to her about her own childraising skills? As a friend, you are in a position to make a difference, if anyone is. Better that , than to keep this hidden in your thoughts when you could be doing some good.
It sounds as if you plan to work with children. When you encounter a black child, since you 'know' he is likely to be mistreated by his parents, how would you behave in that situation?
Let's not turn this into a sniping match. Sugarre has the right to comment on anything and anyone. I have the right to say that the deafening silence, given the alacrity with which the vast majority of posts are jumped on and responded, gave me the impression that no one cares about the topic. I understand that for some it was too hot a topic - but isn't that the case for anything that is said up here? Normally there is a group capable of a response. This time, that group did not exist. And it is still difficult to see why.
Plucky
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Excuse me for interrupting this thread and where it has gone, but I just read it and I would like to go back to the original text. I was so relieved to read the term NARCISSISM VICTIM SYNDROME. I have it!! I had a conversation with my Nmom today and it was weird because I think deep down inside she wants to have a very good relationship with me - she yearns for it - but her N gets in the way. I haven't brought myself to tell her I think she has a diagnosis and it is that of Narcissism.............she would poo poo on that just like she does every single day of my life.
Has anyone else seen or heard the term other than by Mary Kay or whatever her name is? I would like to do some research on it....even teach a class......or start a support group!!
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Plucky, I'll start a new thread on your topic. I think it's extremely important and deserves more visibility.
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Plucky:
I was hoping with my questons to ReallyMe that she take another look at what she had written and perhaps say, you know I don't really believe that. Instead, she bolstered her opinion and stood behind it. That was really disappointing. ReallyMe, I hope you will reconsider this stance, mainly in light of how sweeping it is. That alone is what racism consists of to me - making generalisations on the basis of race along with our limited personal experience. It is very tempting to do.
how was your hope that I'd say "you know, I don't really believe that," any different from a narcissistic attempt at rendering me voiceless in my views? My friends of color would terribly disagree with anyone labeling me a racist...I am FAR FROM IT, however, my African-American friend would also vouch to you that her culture tends to raise children to obey without talking back and with risk of a "whoopin" if they do, the male folk dominating and cruelly controlling their wives and females in the culture, and the children having attitudes against others, in which they rule and the others are to obey them. I've seen it too many times to say it's not so. If, in your eyes, my black friend and my opinion makes us racist, then I guess you can see it that way...but I am entitled to what I believe and have experienced, and, as I said "FROM MY EXPERIENCE" if you read the post a bit closer, this has been the case.
~Laura