Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Certain Hope on July 24, 2006, 11:15:59 AM
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While doing a bit of research, I found this short list of rules of intimacy. Seems like a pretty good guideline to me.
Hope
THE TEN COMMANDMENTS OF EMOTIONAL LITERACY
I. Place love at the center of your emotional life. Heart-centered emotional intelligence empowers everyone it touches.
II. Love yourself, others and truth in equal parts. Never sacrifice one to the other.
III. Stand up for how you feel and what you want. If you don't, it is not likely that anyone else will.
IV. Respect the ideas, feelings and wishes of others as much as you do your own. Respecting ideas does not mean that you have to submit to them.
V. Emotional Literacy requires that you not lie by omission or commission. Except where your safety or the safety of others is concerned, do not lie.
VI. Emotional Literacy requires that you do not power play others. Gently but firmly ask instead for what you want until you are satisfied.
VII. Do not allow yourself to be power played. Gently but firmly refuse to do anything you are not willing to do of your own free will.
IIX. Apologize and make amends for your mistakes. Nothing will make you grow faster.
IX. Do not accept false apologies. They are worth less than no apologies at all.
X. Follow these commandments according to your best judgment. After all, they are not written in stone.
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Hope,
I like that list and agree that it is a great way to live your life. I still struggle with 6 & 7, but if I didn't, I'd be perfect--and who wants that, after all. :D
Thanks for sharing.
Brigid
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Dear Brigid,
Me, too ... thanks for your words of encouragement and support on my other thread, too. The sentiments are mutual.(((((((Brigid)))))))
With love, Hope
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Thank you Certain Hope, more good food for thought.
I was nodding as I read, then I thought of my parents and how would they react if I lived , truly, by these rules...and I thought, we'd have no relationship whatsoever. Or would we? As an example I thought of:
Do not accept false apologies. They are worth less than no apologies at all.
and well.......both of them make what are false apologies in my perception....and both are incapable of making true apologies. So then I thought...okay, but what does 'accept' mean here, do not 'accept'?
And I thought, even if I say to them "that's okay, I know it wasn't your fault/you didn't mean it" that doesn't mean that I accept it, in my heart. I guess these rules remind me of the Four Agreements - they can be read time and time again and it depends on your interpretation as to how you take the meaning. I guess the meaning is mostly internal?
I'm thinking more about
false apologies. They are worth less than no apologies at all
well...I don't know. I'd rather my mother said "I didn't mean it!" rather than just ignore something completely. It shows that she heard my complaint, even if she doesn't take any responsibility for her actions. So I don't think false apologies are 'worth less' than no apology at all. I think they're worth whatever I think they're worth to me, it depends on my perception and what I will accept. ?
I accept that my parents are emotionally very young and are unable to interact with me in an emotionally-adult way and so therefore on a certain level I accept their false apologies as the best they can do. I'll think some more about these rules because they're good for examining what my own perceptions are. Do you know the Four Agreements? I'm still struggling with them.
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Hi Portia,
Good to hear from you. My first thought is ~ if I agree that I value these rules and choose to hold them as my standard, then I will apply them congruently and consistently to every aspect of my life. If I agree that I value these rules and yet choose to deny or void them in certain circumstances, I would be sacrificing my integrity... my wholeness... and that would open the door to all sorts of instabilities.
About your comments on apologies... good points!! As usual, my first thought is to define ~ what is an apology? I mean, what would be the key elements of a true apology versus the identifying factors of a false apology. At first blush, I think that has alot to do with why an apology is offered in the first place. Is it done simply to hush the offended party and obliviously move on or is it an apology offered from a sincere understanding of the wrongs done and a determination to change so that the offense is not repeated? Also, what does it mean to accept an apology? Must acceptance be reconciliation and restoration of relationship? I'll be thinking some more about these rules as well, because I really don't know, but I agree with you that they're a good tool for self-examination. I'll do some reading about these "Four Agreements", too... thanks, Portia. For now, I'll post some of what I found online re: apologies, which may help to clarify some of the questions that you and I both have. Having read just this far, I can already see that the apology which I recently extended to you was not complete, so I'm glad for the opportunity to study this further.
This is quite lengthy, but worth reading, I think. Will post some more of what I find as time allows.
Hope
How To Give A Meaningful Apology
By Beverly Engel
A meaningful apology is one that communicates what I call the three R's--regret, responsibility, and remedy.
1. A statement of regret for having caused the inconvenience, hurt or damage.
This includes an expression of empathy toward the other person, including an acknowledgement of the inconvenience, hurt, or damage that you caused the other person.
Having empathy for the person you hurt or angered is the most important part of your apology. When you truly have empathy the other person will feel it. Your apology will wash over him or her like a healing balm. On the other hand, if you don't have empathy your apology will sound and feel empty.
2. An acceptance of responsibility for your actions.
This means not blaming anyone else for what you did and not making excuses for your actions but instead accepting full responsibility for what you did and for the consequences of your actions.
3. A statement of your willingness to take some action to remedy the situation--either by promising to not repeat your action, a promise to work toward not making the same mistake again, a statement as to how you are going to remedy the situation (go to therapy) or by making restitution for the damages you caused.
Apologizing to your spouse for having an affair is insulting unless you offer reassurances: It will never happen again because we will seek therapy, because I've quit my job, because I'll take you on my business trips.
Regret, Responsibility and Remedy
Unless all three of these elements are present, the other person will sense that something is missing in your apology and he or she will feel shortchanged somehow. Let's take a look at each element separately.
Regret
The desire to apologize needs to come from the realization that you have hurt someone or caused them some difficulty in their life. While your intention may not have been to hurt this person, you recognize that your action or inaction nevertheless did hurt or inconvenience them and for this, you feel bad. This regret or remorse needs to be communicated to the other person.
Examples:
* "I am so sorry. I know I hurt your feelings and I feel terrible about it."
* "I deeply regret having hurt you."
* "I am truly sorry for the pain I caused you."
Responsibility
For an apology to be effective it must be clear that you are accepting total responsibility for your actions or inaction. Therefore, your apology needs to include a statement of responsibility.
Examples:
* "I'm sorry, I realize that by being late I made us miss the first part of the movie."
* "I'm sorry. I know it is difficult for you to trust people and my lying to you hasn't made it any easier. I shouldn't have lied no matter how afraid I was of your reaction."
* "I'm sorry. You have every right to be angry with me. I shouldn't have said those words to you."
* "I'm so sorry. There's no excuse for my behavior and I know I hurt you deeply.
Remedy
While you can't go back and undo or redo the past, you can do everything within your power to repair the harm you caused. Therefore, a meaningful apology needs to include a statement in which you offer restitution in some way, an offer to help the other person, or a promise to take action so that you will not repeat the behavior.
Examples:
* "I'm sorry. Let me make it up to you. Next time the movie is on me."
* "I'm sorry for lying to you. I promise I won't do it again."
* "I'm sorry for talking to you like that. I'll work on letting you know when I don't like something instead of holding it all in and then exploding like that."
* "I'm sorry. I'm going to go into therapy so I can understand why I act the way I do."
Intention and Attitude
The two most important underlying aspects of an apology are your intention and your attitude. These will be communicated nonverbally to the person to whom you are apologizing. If your apology does not come from a sincere attempt on your part to express your heartfelt feelings of regret, to take responsibility for your actions and to right the wrong you've caused, your apology will not feel meaningful or believable to the other person.
In order for the person you have wronged to feel this sincerity, your desire to apology must come from inside you. You should never attempt an apology just because someone else tells you it is the right thing to do, because you know the other person is expecting it, or because you know it will get you what you want from the other person. Apologies that are given as mere social gestures will likely come across as empty and meaningless. Apologies that are mere manipulations to get what you want will likely be spotted for what they are.
Make No Excuses
Once you begin to reconstruct what led up to the wrong you did, it is natural to begin making excuses for your actions. While there may be valid reasons for your behavior, there is no excuse. It is important that you realize the difference.
Owning up to the wrong you've done isn't easy--especially when the person you've harmed has also wronged you. But no matter what you've done, most people respond positively to honesty. Admit your mistake, acknowledge that you messed up. By owning up to the fact that you harmed someone, by refusing to make excuses for your actions, you will likely engender respect from the person you've harmed. By apologizing for your actions you will likely engender forgiveness.
Before You Apologize
In order to make a meaningful apology you must first complete the following steps. Otherwise, your apology is likely to be weak and ineffective.
Step One: Admit your offense to yourself.
No whitewashing, no excuses, no blaming others. Just brutal honesty.
Step Two: Take time to consider the ramifications of your action or inaction
What effect do you feel your actions or inaction had on the other person? How did you behavior affect the person's life?
Step Three: Put yourself in the place of the person you wronged and try to understand how he or she felt.
Try looking at the situation from the other person's perspective and imagine how he or she felt. Was he or she angry? hurt? disappointed?
Step Four: Forgive yourself
Apologizing to the person you hurt or harmed will no doubt help you to forgive yourself, especially if he or she is able to forgive you. But ironically, you will need to begin the process of forgiving yourself if your apology is to be effective. If you approach the person you wronged feeling overwhelmed with guilt you will be distracted from where your focus needs to be--on the person you wronged and their feelings.
Real guilt is a necessary social emotion. It is our conscience's way of preventing us from doing things we will later regret. Our society would fall apart if we were incapable of feeling real guilt. Real guilt is felt when we have violated our own moral code, gone against our own value and belief systems.
If you do something on your own volition, without coercion or intimidation that you know is morally wrong, then you will suffer real, healthy guilt. The purpose of this guilt is to discourage you from doing it again.
While real guilt can serve a positive function in our society, holdingonto your guilt feelings does not serve a positive function. The most effective way of relieving your guilt and of forgiving yourself is to make certain that you do not repeat the offense again.
Step Five: Forgive the person you are apologizing to
You will find it impossible to make sincere apologies to others for your side of a conflict unless you have forgiven them for the harms they have caused you. Even if you don't bring up the other person's mistakes directly, your ill will toward him or her will come through in other ways.
A dear friend of mine, I will call her Rose, has dedicated her life in the past ten years to her spiritual growth. One of the most important aspects of this growth has been to make amends to all those she had conflicts or misunderstandings with in the past. To her, this meant that she sit down in person with each person she felt she had hurt in any way. Throughout the years she had meetings with her grown children, her ex-husband, her brothers, and some of her friends. At each meeting she apologized to the person for her hurtful behavior or attitude and asked them to forgive her.
These were difficult encounters for my friend who admittedly tends to be extremely proud and often defensive. At times it took all the courage she could muster in order to actually go through with it. But she felt she was being guided by God to make these amends and felt it was important for her spiritual growth and so she persevered even when she doubted her strength.
Recently, she told me that she had come to the realization that she needed to make amends to her ex-husband's new wife, Margaret. Even though Margaret had maliciously gossiped about her and tried to turn Rose's children against her, Rose was now painfully aware that she too had acted hurtfully and maliciously toward Margaret. In response to Margaret's behavior toward her, my friend had stooped to her level and had repeatedly said negative things about her to others. I was absolutely astounded that Rose had come to this place in her spiritual growth. And yet she wasn't doing it without trepidation. "This is going to be one of the hardest things I have ever done in my life," she told me. "I feel it is important to do, but there is a part of me that continues to resist it. I keep thinking of the horrible things she's said about me in the past and I get angry all over again. I just hope my anger doesn't come up while I'm trying to make amends."
My advice to her was that she needed to work more on forgiving this person, otherwise her amends would not be effective. While some people need to focus more on releasing their anger, in Rose's case this didn't seem to be working. Instead she found that praying for Margaret helped her get past her resentments. For several weeks prior to their meeting she asked God to bless her former enemy. She also prayed for help in removing her anger. By the time she met with Margaret she was far more forgiving and was able to apologize for her part in the relationship without being distracted by any resentments. Much to her surprise, Margaret accepted her apology wholeheartedly and apologized in turn for her part in the relationship. They are now on friendly terms and actually get together at some family gatherings, making Rose's children's lives a lot easier.
Unless you completely forgive the person you wronged for his or her part in the interaction, your resentment will seep out and contaminate your apology. You'll end up letting your resentment slip out in statements like, "Of course, what you did didn't help the situation any. If you hadn't been so stubborn and pig-headed I wouldn't have been as forceful as I was in my argument." This kind of statement will negate your apology and sabotage the entire process.
Step Six: Plan and prepare for your apology
Making an apology is a very serious thing and should not be taken lightly. Therefore it is very important that you plan and prepare for your apology in order to maximize the possibilities of it being a positive experience for both you and the person you wronged.
Impulsively picking up the phone or going over to someone's house in order to apologize can set you up for disappointment. As discussed above, you need to devote some time to thinking about the consequences of your actions and to empathize with the person you harmed. And you need to give some thought as to what you want to say. There will, of course, be occasions when a spontaneous "I'm sorry" is very appropriate. But for those bigger mistakes and transgressions, impulsiveness and spontaneity may convey disrespect and may cause you to botch your efforts at apology. We don't often get a second chance at an apology so make the best of your efforts by doing some preparation.
On the other hand, don't allow yourself to become so obsessed with what you are going to say and how you are going to say it that you become immobilized.
Choosing How To Deliver Your Apology
The manner in which you apologize can be as important as the apology itself. For example, some people choose to apologize in person, while others feel that it is more advantageous to apologize in writing. In the following section I will discuss the various ways in which you may choose to apologize, along with the pros and cons of each.
Face-to-face apologies
A face-to-face apology is usually the best way to apologize because it affords the opportunity for the wronged person to see your face and thus be better able to ascertain your sincerity. But it takes courage to look the person you wronged directly in the eyes, admit your offense and apologize. And it takes courage to have the person you wronged look in your eyes and see your vulnerability and remorse. If you have this courage you will benefit tremendously. Whether the other person is able to forgive you or not, you'll feel good about yourself for being able to face up to your mistakes.
There can, however, be some disadvantages to a face-to-face apology. The person being apologized to may feel as if he or she is put on the spot and is being pressured to forgive. Because of this you may want to preface your apology with a statement like, "I would like to apologize to you for .... I don't expect you to be ready to forgive me. I just want to say my peace and then I'll give you time to think about what I've said."
A face-to-face apology should never be attempted if you have any reason to suspect that the person you wronged may lash out at you physically. If you know ahead of time that the person you have wronged tends to act out violently and is still extremely angry with you, it is probably not a good idea to apologize face-to-face.
Written apologies
Some people feel compelled to travel great distances in order to apologize in person and if this is your situation, by all means follow your instincts. But in most cases, a written apology is probably your best option if the person you wronged lives very far away from you.
Written apologies are also a good choice for those who tend to bumble attempts at speaking from the heart. Some people just don't do well when it comes to expressing themselves verbally, either because they become very nervous or because they don't think well on their feet. If this describes you, writing your apology down on paper will likely be far less stressful to you and can be more effective as well.
A written apology can also feel like less pressure to the person you are apologizing to than a face-to-face apology. It gives the person you wronged plenty of time and space to decide whether or not he or she is prepared to forgive you. He or she can reread your letter at leisure, affording her or him the opportunity to think through the situation completely.
Be sure to keep a copy of your apology letter in case the person you've wronged wants to discuss it with you or has questions about what you stated in the letter. It can also be a good idea to keep a copy of the letter as a reminder of the consequences your words and actions.
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Hi again,
Portia, found another article to post here on this issue of apology. This one takes a very simple, straight-forward approach, complete with several brief examples of the differences between true and false apologies. As I read through these, I do see that I've often failed to make my apologies complete, especially by utilizing either the excuse or denial of intent rationales. Probably have used the blame method as well, although I'm not so aware of that one. I am so glad that you raised these questions in my mind!
As I continue to think this through, I'll take another look at how I dealt with my own recent apology to you. One thing I'm happy to see is that you and I did seem to cover the element of how I can avoid repeating my offense. I can see that I did, albeit unknowingly, fulfill that element by agreeing that I would come to you first (and only) in any future conflicts, not address the matter in the way I did on this occasion.
OK... here's the article:
Hope
"I'm Sorry" - Blame-Game or Accountability?
by Sharon Ellison
A powerful tool for health as we approach the new year can be to focus on giving and/or receiving only real apologies when we want to heal a rift with a family member, friend, or co-worker. We hear apologies all the time, but I don't think many of them are sincere. An apology has to be real to heal.
Trang Lei spent the day helping Martha buy furniture and art for her remodeled living room, but Martha never even offered to buy Trang Lei's lunch and so she felt unappreciated. Later when she told Martha she felt hurt, Martha said, "I'm sorry. I was just so excited about what I was buying that I didn't even think about it." Trang Lei did not feel better. In fact, she felt worse.
What was wrong with Martha's apology?
Martha's apology came with a built-in excuse, implying that however she behaved was unintentional-beyond her conscious control. Moreover, Martha has an expectation that Trang Lei will accept the excuse. Thus, Martha perpetuates the original problem by continuing to be more focused on herself than on Trang Lei. I call this kind of apology "Sorry-Excuse."
Even Martha wasn't consciously manipulating, her goal was not to take responsibility but to find a way out of it. In most cases, if you don't accept other people's excuses when they apologize, they will quickly get irritated with you, blaming you for not being understanding.
When we receive a counterfeit apology we often sense it and so rather than the hurt being healed, it is deepened-as in the old saying, "adding insult to injury." I think almost all of us give such apologies. And we model it for our children.
Guidelines for making real apologies:
One: Identify common formats for apology that are" counterfeit." If you clearly various types of bogus apologies, it will help you recognize when you give or receive an one. Here are some examples of common phrasing.
"Sorry-Excuse"
Example: "I'm sorry I didn't call-I've been really busy."
Translation: Please be understanding about the fact that other things were more important than you."
"Sorry-Denial of Intent"
Example: "I'm sorry you took it that way. It wasn't what I meant."
Translation: I think it's too bad that you had difficulty understanding me correctly.
Example: "I'm sorry if I offended you."
Translation: I can't think of anything I did wrong, but if you think so, I'd be happy to apologize so I can get back in your good graces.
"Sorry-Blame"
Example: "I'm sorry I didn't call sooner. Have you been feeling insecure about our relationship lately?"
Translation: If you are upset about my not calling, the real cause is your own insecurity, not anything I did.
Two: Only say "I'm sorry," when you mean it and can specify exactly what you are apologizing for. When we give what I believe is a "healthy" or authentic apology, we can state clearly what we did that was disrespectful or inconsiderate without:
immediately explaining why we did it,
telling the person that however it looked or sounded, it wasn't our real intention, or,
bringing up some other issue that suggests that the other person contributed to or caused the problem.
For example, instead of focusing on why she didn't buy Trang-Lei's lunch-her excuse, Martha could have taken full responsibility, saying, "I'm so sorry I hurt you. There is no excuse for me to forget to buy your lunch. Even that would have been a small thank you for how much you helped me. And you spent your only day off doing it."
Here, Martha uses her apology to show her real appreciation as well as her sadness that she didn't do so earlier.
Three: Decline to accept an apology that is not given sincerely. When you accept an apology, and then walk away knowing it wasn't real, you enter a world of make-believe where you pretend an issue is resolved while harboring resentments. Gently, firmly, without anger, you can decline a hollow apology. For example:
If you believe that I simply misunderstood you, then I would rather not have an apology from you.
Only if you believe you did something hurtful would I want one.
When you refuse to accept an insincere apology, you refuse to surrender to being manipulated or pacified and you hold the other person more accountable-without having to argue or try to force an apology. You are likely to feel greater confidence.
Real Apologies Build Character and Respect
If we can change how we give and receive apologies, we can become less defensive, gain insight, grow wiser, and strengthen all of our relationships. We can also, then, be a strong model for others, including our children, teaching them that real apologies show strength of character, gain the respect of others, and have great healing power.
~ This article is based on the book Taking the War Out of Our Words by Sharon Ellison, available through your local bookstore or favorite online bookseller. Sharon Ellison, M.S. is an award winning speaker and international consultant. If this article has been of any help to you, we encourage you to let us know.
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Hi, Hope.
When I read:
"bout your comments on apologies... good points!! As usual, my first thought is to define ~ what is an apology? I mean, what would be the key elements of a true apology versus the identifying factors of a false apology."
It made me think of a situation that appeared to demonstrate a "false apology" to me.
Several years ago, a friend of mine had the BAD habit of being consistently late. Not just 5 or 10 minutes late....she would be HOURS late!!!! Each time she did this, she had the same "stock" apology: "Ohhhhhh!!!! I ought to be spanked!" I wasn't the only one she did this to. She did to her family as well!!!! A case in point was when we made dinner reservations at a fancy restaurant for 7:00 p.m. one Saturday evening. We all agreed to meet at one person's home at 4:00 p.m. so we could carpool to the restaurant as parking is very bad in the area. The rest of us arrived at this person's home at the appointed time EXCEPT this my friend. We waited, getting hungrier, and hungrier, expecting her to arrive any second. I was the only person in the group NOT related to her by blood or marriage so I really couldn't say a whole lot. Even though she knew she was supposed to arrive at 4:00 p.m. and that the dinner reservation was at 7:00 p.m., what time did she finally show up???? 9:00 p.m.!!!!!! And the very first words out of her mouth?????? "Ohhhhhhh!!!!! I ought to be spanked!" I didn't have to say a word because her family lit into her!!!!
A few years later, she invited me to attend a play with her, Dutch treat. I told her that I expected her to be punctual as I did not want to be forced to pay full price and then see only half a play because of her tardiness. I arrived at the appointed place at the appointed time and SHE WASN'T THERE!!!! After waiting 20 minutes, I left and went to my 12-Step meeting instead. The following morning, she called me with the usual "Ohhhhhh!!!! I ought to be spanked!" and I blasted her with both barrels about her false apologies!!!! She attempted to excuse her tardiness by saying that she had already stated that "she ought to be spanked!" I pointed out to her that genuine apologies MEAN NOT REPEATING THE OFFENSIVE BEHAVIORS when what she was actually doing was "saying the magic words" and giving herself permission to do it again! I didn't speak to her for about five years. She eventually called me to genuinely apologize for her chronic tardiness and asked me if I could "keep her on point" when it came to punctuality. She has been making a genuine effort ever since and that is all I asked for.
Bones
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"I ought to be spanked" is sort of weird Bones. :lol:
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Hi Bones,
I am so glad to hear that your friend has made the turn-around and invited you to help her remain accountable! That is truly the best possible outcome, I think, of a friend or family member's refusal to baby/coddle grown adults... that the person would mature and be able to relate on a responsible, level footing without making empty excuses for poor behavior. What you describe of your friend's past behavior reminds me of something I read long ago re: the Peter Pan Syndrome... basically describing people who refuse to grow up. The comment "I ought to be spanked" seems to show that this woman recognized her behavior as childish, yet she had absolutely no inclination to change... until her "I might be a brat but you gotta love me" attitude was met by solid resistance. I think that you were a wonderful friend to be as patient with her as you were... and to stand your ground, not accepting her version of the "magic words" without concrete evidence of true change of behavior.
Hope
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Hi Bones...
I used to be chronically late, by 10 or 15 minutes. I still sometimes fight to get myself out the door.
What woke me up was reading a few years ago, I forget where:
When you are chronically late to meet a friend, you are saying to them:
Your time is not as important as mine. You are not as important as I am.
That wiped the charming sheepdoggy look off my face.
Hops
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Hi Hope ,
Thank you for this thread .
It seems building trust after saying you are sorry is important.
I am grateful for the 2nd chances I have been given in my life.
Moon
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Hi Moon,
Yes, thank God for new beginnings!
Thinking about how to make the most of every opportunity is what led me to do some research on the topic of emotional integrity ... which led me to this list of 10 commandments.
Portia started me out with thoughts about apologies (referenced in commandments # 8 and #9), which is definitely a timely topic! But I also don't want to neglect the first 7, which I think are equally important in building true emotional wholeness that's not dependent on circumstances, but solid and mature.
So for now, I'm meditating on the #'s 1 and 2.... First re: lkeeping ove at the center of the heart and next the realization that the truth is equally as vital as love for self and others. I'm comparing these thoughts with Biblical references to see how they mesh up and what sort of changes I need to make in order to take the next step toward full maturity. It's exciting, this business of growing up!
Hope
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Hi Certain Hope, thanks for replying re the apology topic I was meandering about! I’ve just read all the replies here and your info re: what makes an apology, truly informative reading, thank you.
What does it mean to accept an apology? Off the top of my head, if both parties agree that an action was hurtful or say disrespectful, and one wishes to apologise for their action, the other must accept the apology, meaning they understand and accept the other person’s view. I’m not sure it needs to lead to forgiveness and reconciliation – not in all cases – because (1) there may not be an action to forgive and (2) the parties may not be apart to be in need of reconciliation.
I mean, there can be an obvious and gross transgression – such as a physical assault. Someone has a physical hurt and needs to forgive the offence? (? I’m thinking out loud, not sure of this.) Do they need to reconcile – well, one might say, “hey I don’t blame you and I still like you but I want to know why you did that”….so maybe they’re not un-reconciled to start with? I guess it’s a matter of degree and the relationship between the two.
I have to disagree with you about
I can already see that the apology which I recently extended to you was not complete
because it felt complete to me – maybe not to you? Thing is, if we both agree that it’s okay, then we decide between us I think. I wonder if I accepted well enough? I do accept your apology, which was about, I think (this is open for opinions) simply ‘talking about me’ (in a certain way, without me present, so to speak).
This is skewed by Sela talking with you, so in a way, you’re then in a conversation and both responsible for talking about me! Complicated stuff.
Thing is, to me, at that point I wasn’t aware of being ‘hurt’ in any way, I was ignorant. When I do have a look, the thread has moved on, Sela is defending me (?? Sela you’d need to confirm, deny, talk about this with us…..whoops now I’m doing a ‘talk about’ thing myself)….and yeah, I guess I feel: this has moved to a point where it’s beyond me.
The more I think about it, the more it seems cloudy.
But at the end of it, I guess I could say I realised you’d said some things and that they were possibly more on the side of “You are” statements than “are you?” questions. (Which I do too, and which I’m trying to wean myself off doing but it’s not easy.) So you taking responsibility for saying things with my name attached – that was a good enough acknowledgement for me. I accepted that you’d changed your mind about the method and therefore accepted your apology and thanked you. Do I need to forgive anything? Not sure, to be honest. I don’t feel violated and said I didn’t hurt (and you acknowledged that), so is there anything to forgive, as such? If you feel there is, maybe there is. I don’t know. I struggle with this whole area because I didn’t exactly have good role models to learn from!
Do we need reconciling? Don’t think so, from my point of view, because I don’t think we were apart but:
aha, I think I’m getting somewhere, I guess it takes both parties to agree on each and every aspect, apologies are totally reciprocal. We have to both agree what happened, where we are now, where we want to be?
I want to say, this is outside my area of responsibility and it’s not my business, this is my….feeling. I feel uncomfortable about the current relationship between you and Sela. I feel somehow involved and responsible, even though you’re both autonomous beings. I have some knowledge and that knowledge is: Sela has written an apology to you on her ‘Anything’ thread and you may not have seen it. And I felt the urge to tell you that. What you do with that information is totally and completely up to you. I felt the need to just ‘inform’….why…..because I feel Sela can’t do it for herself. I feel there’s this wide space between you both and Sela didn’t want to ‘risk’ (my word, my perception) posting back to your thread, so she’s made an apology on hers and maybe it would be a friendly thing to do for me to be messenger. I have to be careful playing ‘messenger’ roles because it’s too close to family stuff, but I think in this case it’s okay. So, job done I think.
Phew, not easy. So where am I now? Are we okay? Are you okay with me, with what happened and how we’ve handled it? As long as the communication lines are open, we can talk and that’s the way to deal with misunderstandings, I believe. If there’s more, we can talk about it, no worries.
I was wondering today if there are any apologies I need to make, and who to? Then I thought, doesn’t it take someone to complain, to voice their concerns, to say “you hurt me”? I mean, this all gets caught up in ‘am I responsible for other people’s reactions?’ and who defines the ‘offence’ etc etc. All very difficult for me to think through but if prompted, I’d have a go. I’m usually open to suggestion I think. Sorry for such a long post! Bye for now CH, P
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Wow, everybody.
This is a hard-working thread.
I am very impressed with all of you for that, especially Hope and Portia.
Good will shows, open minds show.
Jac, you're really helping people with all that information.
When I read Hope and Portia's dialogue, I thought again of S. Africa's Truth and Reconciliation Commission.
I think I'll go Google.
hugs,
Hops
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Thank you Jac, that kind of observation I welcome with arms like this (((((((((thanks Jac)))))))))
One day I'll try direct communication, when I shake off all this baggage, if ever. Okay, I'm going away to think about what i could have said up there, instead. (You know, that sentence is starting to sound like I'm trying to influence by stealth too, which I've only just seen could be an interpretation...hey, enough, I know that wasn't my intention! :D) *sigh* I could have just stated the facts. I don't need to give a reason do I? Hmm. bye for now
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Hi Portia,
Based on my newly aquired (still infantile) knowledge of communication which does not enable dysfunctional relationships, I think I'm s'posed to say: "I'm sorry you're feeling that way, Portia."
So... I'm sorry you're feeling that way, Portia.
With love,
Hope
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Just wanted to add:
I used to be chronically late, by 10 or 15 minutes. I still sometimes fight to get myself out the door.
What woke me up was reading a few years ago, I forget where:
When you are chronically late to meet a friend, you are saying to them:
Your time is not as important as mine. You are not as important as I am.
That wiped the charming sheepdoggy look off my face
Ditto for me Hops, completely changed the way I looked at being "fashionably late."
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Hi all:
Hiya P:
Sela is defending me (?? Sela you’d need to confirm, deny, talk about this with us
I read this as an invitation. Thankyou Portia.
Yes. I was defending you. It also felt like defending generally, every person's right to be dealt with directly and respectfully (as iffffff I can do that??? :roll:).
I feel uncomfortable about the current relationship between you and Sela. I feel somehow involved and responsible.
You are responsible!! If you had never been born, there would have been no one to defend!! (sick joke. not funny. another direct effect of abuse....it seems.....taking on more responsibility than belongs to us eh? Tell me about it!). ((((((((((((((P)))))))))))))
Not your fault P. It was my choice to jump in and start defending, without even expressing my respect for Hope's ideas, feelings, wishes. It is me who is responsible here.
Thankyou for feeling stuff for others P anyway. That's very considerate, I think. Also thankyou for referring to my incomplete apology over on the "Anything" thread. I appreciate your effort very much. It was a very friendly thing to do!
Thanks to you, Hope, for this thread. Yep.
IV. Respect the ideas, feelings and wishes of others as much as you do your own. Respecting ideas does not mean that you have to submit to them.
This is where I mucked up most I think. Trying to learn. I should have expressed this. Maybe that would have helped eh?
I love this...... The 3R's (regret, responsibility, repair)! Wonderful! I'll do my best to remember them.
Having empathy for the person you hurt or angered is the most important part of your apology.
(Beverly's opinion) I'm not sure it's the most important part. Maybe? I didn't express this, though I felt it. Learning. Learning. Shoulda. Shoulda. :oops: :oops:
not making excuses for your actions
If I try to explain why I behaved the way I did, does that help? It helps me to understand why people behave the way they do. I guess I assume this is also helpful to others. Excuse seems like another judgement...depends, I guess, on how the other person interprets, I think. So much depends on our perceptions. If we believe the person is making excuses, it won't help. :|
Unless all three of these elements are present, the other person will sense that something is missing in your apology and he or she will feel shortchanged somehow
This is probably what happens, some of the time, although, as P pointed out, not always. No absolutes, I think too.
What if you're not exactly sure which of your words hurt (or in other cases, what you did wrong) but you feel generally bad for hurting/upsetting/angering the person anyway?
Probably it would be good to ask first?
What if the person refuses to communicate with you?
Maybe it would be good to apologise anyway? Maybe not? Not sure there. I think it might be good.
I don't think I offered restitution. I plan to do my best to express number 4 above from now on. I think that might help me avoid hurting others. On the other hand, I'm human. I know I react and
can't react perfectly all the time. I think honesty is very important. Restitution, imo, can be a way to soothe....or make up for. I guess it depends too. I'll try. I'll try to do better. That's honest and not some soothing statement. It's just honest. I want to speak without hurting. My intent is pure. Doesn't sound like much restitution? I'll do my best. I will! Hope that makes sense.
The two most important underlying aspects of an apology are your intention and your attitude.
Possibly the most difficult for the other person to define. How does one decide the sincerity of another? How can one be sure? How does one proove sincerity? Very tricky, I think. Attitude can be a state of mind or feeling. How can that be clearly shown? Especially here....with only written text. On the other hand, after awhile, attitude becomes clearer, when lot's of words have been written and lot's of feelings expressed. Maybe it's fair to say that it requires time to define attitude? I'm not sure?
While there may be valid reasons for your behavior, there is no excuse.
Very wise. Very true, I think. Read this on this board a long time ago and have embraced this idea ever since. I don't always remember it. More :oops:
most people respond positively to honesty.
Key word being most people. Some have too hard of a time trusting maybe? and that causes a different response....and maybe even more harm? How does one proove honesty? Over time, behaviour usually speaks volumes, attitude becomes clearer? but honesty.....in regard to words? Honesty about what one is feeling? Honesty about empathy? More than tricky I think! Honesty is not easy to tell, sometimes, I think.
Humble comes to mind too. An apology needs to be humble, maybe? Reminds me of the ultimate N song:
Oh Lord, it's hard to be hummmble
When you're perrrfect in evvvvvverrrrrry way.
I can't help but look in the mirror.
I get bettttttter lookin' each day.
To knowwww me is to lovvvvvve me.
I must be a helllllll of a man!
Oh Lord, it's hard to be hummmmmmmble.
When you're perrrrrrrrfect in evvvvvvvery way.
I bet the person who wrote that song knew a few N's! :D (or was one?? :shock: :shock: who knows?)
So much depends on how we finish people's sentences for them in our heads. Assumptions.
Re the Second article,
"Sorry-Excuse"
Example: "I'm sorry I didn't call-I've been really busy."
Translation: Please be understanding about the fact that other things were more important than you."
I think this is one way to perceive the apology. Another might be that the person simply has not had the time to call. Other obligations had to be met. They thought about you and wanted to call but were not able.
They feel sorry for not having called and not being able and want you to know they wanted to and how sorry they are.
"Sorry-Denial of Intent"
Example: "I'm sorry you took it that way. It wasn't what I meant."
Translation: I think it's too bad that you had difficulty understanding me correctly.
One way of looking at it. A variant could be that the person is actually sorry that they didn't communicate well enough and they feel bad that there is now a misunderstanding. It could be their way of trying
to communicate their intent. I'm not sure that trying to communicate intent is blaming. It could also be seen as trying to express empathy for the way they see the other person has perceived what was said?
Decline to accept an apology that is not given sincerely.
Dangerous advice, I think. Unless one can read people's hearts and minds, I don't know how this could be determined absolutely.
A better approach might be to simply ask: "Do you believe I simply misunderstood you?" And......maybe add: "That doesn't feel like a full apology to me". Explain what's missing??
Thankyou Portia for trying to drill that one into my head. Ask. Ask. I wish I could always remember to ask.
I so much appreciate everything you have helped me with and taught me too. More drilling is necessary, no doubt. Thankyou for your patience and persistance.
Hope, my reason for apologising is because I hurt you, I think, and I feel bad for having done that. My post on the "Anything" thread is more than an apology though. It's an attempt to keep the lines of communication open and an attempt to show respect for your wishes and feelings.
Sela
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Hi again, Portia,
I'm feeling the need to repeat a couple of statements which you and I made on the "Double Standards" thread.
I said: "I understand your position re: Sela's involvement in this conflict and thank you for being so clear about that. You've inspired me to attempt to be equally clear. I will not be revisiting my exchanges with Sela. I will not contribute to any further discussion on that topic at all. This is a boundary I must draw for myself, because I don't know how to speak any more clearly than I already have, and yet my words were twisted, imo. "
You said: " I respect your boundary with Sela. I was simply being honest about my thoughts and feelings and experiences. It's okay with me for you to do as you choose and we can agree to disagree in our interpretations of Sela's intentions. No worries."
Portia, if you have since changed your mind about whether or not to respect my boundary, that is entirely up to you, of course. If you have recognized that somehow respecting my boundary runs counter to what you think you need to do in order to nurture another relationship which you value, then I can certainly appreciate your perceived dilemma. You've expressed your discomfort with the way things have been left (about which I think Jac said a mouthful in her response). For my part, I can express my sympathy for any discomfort you may be feeling re: where things are now.
I can say that I'm sorry you feel that way, but I can't taking responsibility for easing your feelings. In fact, I don't think your feelings (at this point) are within either my arena of responsibility or my ability to ease. And so my original boundary stands. It stands because, to this day, I see a clear and obvious need for it.
From my perspective, you crossed my boundary, Portia, when you said in your most recent response on this thread:
"When I do have a look, the thread has moved on, Sela is defending me (?? Sela you’d need to confirm, deny, talk about this with us…..whoops now I’m doing a ‘talk about’ thing myself)…."
Portia, I'm not upset with you or angry that you did this, because I think you're doing the best you can with what you know. I do need to be clear though.... I will not be a part of the "us" in that sentence. I think that with your aversion to being lumped into a group mentality, you'll understand that; at least I hope you will.
So now I'm thinking... where does all of this leave me? Am I required now to recycle this entire event, returning to square one and restating my reasons for setting that boundary in the first place or even revoke that boundary completely? I don't think so. Is the only way to appear to be a reasonable, non-"meanie" type of person to nod and smile and pretend like everything is fine now? I hope not. I've seen alot of abuse perpetrated by those who count on the silence of those who are deeply invested in keeping up appearances.
I don't care a fig for appearances.
As I said, my boundary stands.
Maybe I left the door open to this sort of regurgitation when I said that I wasn't sure my previous apology to you was complete. What I meant was... since reading these in-depth analyses of what an apology entails, I wasn't sure whether I'd covered all of the required elements. I'd never seen this info before, until you selected the rules re: apologies out of the "10 Commandments" I posted here and I then researched it more thoroughly. Since doing that, I've come to complete agreement with:
# IX. Do not accept false apologies. They are worth less than no apologies at all.
In fact, I think I'd add a # IX - b. ~ Beware of false acceptances of apologies, which later come along with added contingencies.
Portia, imo ... whether inadvertently or not, you extended an invitation which crossed a boundary, which ended this discussion. This discussion, not any possible future discussions, because just as my boundary still stands, so does my apology, and I still thank you for accepting it, such as that original acceptance was... but I am done discussing this. I wish you the very best in hopes that all of these many words won't be wasted, but bring to light some of issues we all need to work through. And hope to see ya for a meeting of the minds on the next thread :)
Still with love,
Hope
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Hi CH
I was about to go but noticed your post. I said:
"When I do have a look, the thread has moved on, Sela is defending me (?? Sela you’d need to confirm, deny, talk about this with us…..whoops now I’m doing a ‘talk about’ thing myself)…."
You’re right I said ‘us’ and that wasn’t my right. I should have said something like “you’d need to confirm, deny, talk about this with me”. I was wrong to say ‘us’. I’m sorry I invited Sela back like that, implyng she might talk to ‘us’. I should have limited any communication with Sela to myself. My mistake, I accept responsibility for it, I regret that error (it feels such a stupid error).
Sela sorry, I made a mistake there. I should have said you can confirm or deny to me, not to CH.
CH
Since doing that, I've come to complete agreement with:
# IX. Do not accept false apologies. They are worth less than no apologies at all.
In fact, I think I'd add a # IX - b. ~ Beware of false acceptances of apologies, which later come along with added contingencies.
I don’t think I understand this CH. Is this about me and my apologies? Do you think I falsely accepted your apology to me, in order to ‘fit you up’ in some way, do you think I’m being underhanded and manipulative? Do you think I didn’t make a genuine mistake saying ‘us’ instead of ‘me’? I can’t tell. I’m telling you the questions that are swirling around in my head. I'm confused.
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PS I have to go now, back tomorrow, bye for now.
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Portia,
You’re right I said ‘us’ and that wasn’t my right. I should have said something like “you’d need to confirm, deny, talk about this with me”. I was wrong to say ‘us’. I’m sorry I invited Sela back like that, implyng she might talk to ‘us’.
Apology accepted.
Re: I don’t think I understand this CH. Is this about me and my apologies? Do you think I falsely accepted your apology to me, in order to ‘fit you up’ in some way, do you think I’m being underhanded and manipulative? Do you think I didn’t make a genuine mistake saying ‘us’ instead of ‘me’? I can’t tell. I’m telling you the questions that are swirling around in my head. I'm confused.
None of the above, Portia. My turn to apologize again.... I forgot to include the quote from you from which I gathered that you had recognized a missing element to my apology... something that you would want included in order for this apology/reconciliation process to be satisfactory for you.
It was this: (specifically the "but")
Do we need reconciling? Don’t think so, from my point of view, because I don’t think we were apart but:
aha, I think I’m getting somewhere, I guess it takes both parties to agree on each and every aspect, apologies are totally reciprocal. We have to both agree what happened, where we are now, where we want to be?
I want to say, this is outside my area of responsibility and it’s not my business, this is my….feeling. I feel uncomfortable about the current relationship between you and Sela.
What I read you saying here is that it might now be proper for you to make reconciliation between you and me contingent upon our agreement in each and every aspect, including that aspect around which I have already drawn a boundary (which you said you'd respect).
I hope that you can see I've not interpreted anything you've done as being false, underhanded, manipulative, or disingenuous when I tell you again (as I did in my previous post): Portia, I'm not upset with you or angry that you did this, because I think you're doing the best you can with what you know.
I see that I should have worded my #IX b differently. Instead of using the word "false", I should have said "changing" or "fluctuating":
Beware of changing acceptances of apologies, which later come along with added contingencies.
Yes, I think that's more appropriate. Again, my apology for my poor choice of words.
Sincerely,
Hope
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Thanks, Hops!
I don't think my friend was conciously thinking that. At times, she still frustrates me when she makes assumptions, then assumes that all her assumptions are automatically "magically" true, act on those assumptions without doing a reality check, then look to me to clean up her mess!! Each time, I've told her "Nope! I'm too busy! You're the adult. You deal with your own mess!" And I leave it at that. Doesn't stop the attempts completely but she knows where I stand. I refuse to take responsibility for other people's messes that they have created.
Bones
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I get it bones...
but the translation of the behavior into: your time is not valuable...
is still implied.
Not intentional, but i was ready to learn it. So I embraced and say to myself now,
if I make this person wait for me without reasonable reason, something I can't help,that's forgiveable by others in my book. But if I'm just disorganized and indulgng my urge to do something else a little too long...then that message kicks in.
Hops
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Hi Portia:
Sela sorry, I made a mistake there. I should have said you can confirm or deny to me, not to CH.
No prob P. So I posted. Nobody died. No worries. It was my choice.
I should probably have waited longer to see if it was an invitation all round. Didn't think of that so that was my stupidity. I'm sorry for not doing that. I was too hopeful.
Sela
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((((Sela))))
I feel for you. Sometimes I experience others' boundary-setting as being shunned.
It hurts.
But I know that's not the intention here...
Hops
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Hi Hops:
I'm sorry to hear that. It can't be very nice for you, feeling shunned like that sometimes.
I appreciate you saying that.
I don't think that's what's happening for me, though. Thanks for sharing and for caring Hops.
Thanks for the hug too. That feels good!
Sela
on edit: PS: one just because (((((Hops)))))
I must be needing more coffee 'cause I coulda swore I put a hug in there. :?
Have a great day all!
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Hi Certain Hope
Thanks for your acceptance. I made a boo-boo, I know.
Re below: more clarity from me needed I think. I’ll try:
I forgot to include the quote from you from which I gathered that you had recognized a missing element to my apology... something that you would want included in order for this apology/reconciliation process to be satisfactory for you.
:shock: :shock: No no!! I haven’t seen any missing element. Big misunderstanding here.
It was this: (specifically the "but")
Do we need reconciling? Don’t think so, from my point of view, because I don’t think we were apart but:
aha, I think I’m getting somewhere, I guess it takes both parties to agree on each and every aspect, apologies are totally reciprocal. We have to both agree what happened, where we are now, where we want to be?
This part of my thinking stops right here. I mean what I say, which to me reads: we both have to agree that we need no further reconciliation, apologies etc etc. The process is reciprocal. So I cannot decide for myself – as I did that “Do we need reconciling? Don’t think so, from my point of view” – this isn’t enough because – or BUT – you have a say too, you have to agree that nothing more is needed. The BUT was to do with the fact that I see it as reciprocal.
This part following : is totally unrelated to the part above. If I remember, there’s a paragraph break between them?
I want to say, this is outside my area of responsibility and it’s not my business, this is my….feeling. I feel uncomfortable about the current relationship between you and Sela.
What I read you saying here is that it might now be proper for you to make reconciliation between you and me contingent upon our agreement in each and every aspect, including that aspect around which I have already drawn a boundary (which you said you'd respect).
Okay you read this meaning, but it is not what I intended. To be very honest, I see you reading wayyyyy more than I intended into my words. So much more that it worries me, concerns me, that whatever I say, I don’t seem to be communicating very well, or you’re taking a certain meaning from me. This drives me nuts because I hate misunderstandings! (Drives me nuts with a rueful smile I must say, not drives me nuts angry.)
I hope that you can see I've not interpreted anything you've done as being false, underhanded, manipulative, or disingenuous when I tell you again (as I did in my previous post): Portia, I'm not upset with you or angry that you did this, because I think you're doing the best you can with what you know.
I don’t think you’re upset or angry with me and I’m not upset or angry with you. I’m just …………………………… misunderstood. But that’s okay. I don’t have to understand everything under the sun and I don't have to be understood. And I trust that you're doing the best you can too, no concern there.
I see that I should have worded my #IX b differently. Instead of using the word "false", I should have said "changing" or "fluctuating":
Beware of changing acceptances of apologies, which later come along with added contingencies.
Yes, I think that's more appropriate. Again, my apology for my poor choice of words.
I don’t think I need to say anything here CH because I think you misinterpreted what I meant in the first place. Now I’m getting to the point of not knowing exactly what it is we’re misunderstanding each other (not all on your side, no way) about, so maybe just maybe…..we should leave it? What do you think? I dunno. I'm losing the plot a bit! :?
Sela, thanks for replying. My mistake, my error, and yes, nobody died. No apologies needed but all offered, accepted, understood.
Take care, gotta go. P
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Portia,
maybe just maybe…..we should leave it? What do you think?
Yes, I absolutely agree. Leaving it now.
I hope you have a good night.
Hope
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I get it bones...
but the translation of the behavior into: your time is not valuable...
is still implied.
Not intentional, but i was ready to learn it. So I embraced and say to myself now,
if I make this person wait for me without reasonable reason, something I can't help,that's forgiveable by others in my book. But if I'm just disorganized and indulging my urge to do something else a little too long...then that message kicks in.
Hops
I see what you mean. She does have a tendency to be disorganized and indulges her urge to do something else a little too long until I start raising my voice and remind her to look at the clock. At this juncture, a reasonable reason would be in trying to get her mother ready to go somewhere. (Her mother has Alzheimer's and can sometimes be a handful.) Other times, she starts a new project when time is running short and assumes that "everything will be okay" until I point to the clock again.
Yesterday, she violated my privacy for the second time and I chewed her out for it. (I don't like having my personal information given out without my knowledge or permission.) When she was confronted with this second incident, she again responded that "she assumed it would be okay" and made a small attempt at an apology along with asking me to refresh her memory of what she did the first time, which was give my name and number to a total stranger because she "assumed" I wouldn't mind. (I hate telemarketers!) After I called her up and scolded her for violating my privacy, she apologized then forgot about the incident, and repeated history yesterday. (She's been like this since we were teenagers.) I'm about ready to confront her with the issue that she appears to be demonstrating with (a) my time is not valuable and (b) my privacy is not sacrosanct. Grrrrrrrrrrr!!!!!!!!
Bones
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Hey Bones,
At the quite-burned-out daily exhausted caregiver of an elderly mother who does not have Alzheimer's, I'd say also that your gf is likely very fortunate to remember what day it is.
That does explain a lot, if she has most of the burden.
It can be like having a 150-pound two-year-old, when you're not a young vigorous mother yourself.
So I'd keep that in mind before you get too peeved at her. Maybe she needs more help. She might be simply exhausted. It's a very draining role.
I've gotten so tired from the strain of caring for NNom at times I've had memory lapses myself from the stress.
Just a thought...
Hops
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Hey Bones,
At the quite-burned-out daily exhausted caregiver of an elderly mother who does not have Alzheimer's, I'd say also that your gf is likely very fortunate to remember what day it is.
That does explain a lot, if she has most of the burden.
It can be like having a 150-pound two-year-old, when you're not a young vigorous mother yourself.
So I'd keep that in mind before you get too peeved at her. Maybe she needs more help. She might be simply exhausted. It's a very draining role.
I've gotten so tired from the strain of caring for NNom at times I've had memory lapses myself from the stress.
Just a thought...
Hops
Thanks, Hops.
I do pitch in and help out with Mom, especially when the homecare nurse is unavailable for the day. My friend has had the habit of doing this kind of behavior for years WAY before her mother was diagnosed which is why I have been peeved about this before. I do get tired of explaining the obvious repeatedly for over 30 years. After that, my patience is gone.
Bones