Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: jordanspeeps on July 24, 2006, 03:48:31 PM
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Hey guys,
I miss y'all!
I’ve got a lull in my (labor-intensive) accelerated study program and I was just thinking about the folks here. I finished the summer session this past Friday and no sooner than I could finish a nap from the previous all-nighter, my Nmother was on the telephone with a list of family concerns for me to assist her in attending to. I guess she was giving me “a break” while I was engaged in my classes. I was not really prepared for quite the amount of sh** that had hit the proverbial fan. So I figured I’d come here prior to spending significant time with my Nfamily to help me get my Nbearings and to prepare for entering the “shadow of the valley of Death” as I now lovingly refer to my family’s town of origin.
Right now, the relentless saga re-opens with the IRS showing up to my Nmother’s home and enforcing leins on her personal property and having her use the equity, of which she hasn’t enough, to pay her delinquent bills in the hundreds of thousands. My Nfather, for some reason we cannot get out of him, is being ex-communicated from the cultish Nchurch in which my siblings and I were raised. (To get ex-communicated from a cult, whoa… I’m thinking). My Nbrother is looking at nine years in prison for a recent shop-lifting that made it his “third strike” offense and qualifies him to be given the full penalty of his probation. My “stealthNsister,” if I may, is the silent, but grand orchestrater of my Nmother’s current downhill pattern and my poor other brother, a non-N, 33 year old, Muschausen victim, is becoming morbidly obese, suffering unexplained seizures, is on blood pressure, cholesterol, and anti-seizure medicine and is currently being psychologically evaluated to determine if he can receive Disability funds for his “inability” to work…. School, and all it’s running around and examinations, is a happy, welcome escape from all this drama and has been so for me, every since kindergarten.
Today, I came straightaway to the posting about racism, that mentioned my name and the previous drama here on the message board. (I guess this explains the “ear burning”) and I wanted to share some musings about issues brought up on that and the Narcissist’s victims posting. I don’t mean to grandstand, I just didn’t want to enter the previous highly charged discussions in a high-jacking fashion, and there were so many tender moments, I didn’t want to exacerbate anyone’s pain or frustration. I’m not sure if that will happen here but, if it does, I will claim responsibility for that and attempt to alleviate it, if possible.
Hops in the racism thread, said:
If you looked at a whole country/culture as N...who would be its victims?
I tried to get the board to look at things this way a while ago with the “NPD Zeitgeist” and “Hurricane Katrina” threads. At the time, I was pretty much convinced that I was surrounded by N’s of every type and that for whatever reason, there may have been a cultural shift taking place resulting in more N-types surfacing in our society. I was kind of “shot down” during that time, but the feeling doesn’t leave me. I honestly believe we live in perilous times and evil, aka, “malignant narcissism” abounds. I see a lot of examples cultural Nism here in America both within and outside of the African-American culture. I run in a vast variety of social circles. As an anthropologist, I actually prefer to “get into” many types of cultural backgrounds and reasoning. I am recently most fascinated by a cultural phenomenon I thought was one and the same. My new nursing school girlfriends (who just happen to be white, as there only 4 black people in the entire 100 person class), advise me that there is a difference between a “red neck” and “white trash.” They went on to explain and clarify the differences that I will get into later, as I digress.
I believe, we who know how horrible Nism really is, would hate to see ourselves as N, but we should be willing to be accountable for the times we have unwittingly participated in cultural Nism. I can’t really speak for any other place the US, but it would be pure denial to refuse to see ways in which this country has been one big bully, going around feeling entitled to other people’s promise or to the destruction of it. (I’m sure mud is not pleased with that statement, and mud, you and I are buddies, but that statement is to many non-Western cultures categorically true. As it is to me, an American. And, just in case any one was wondering, if I had the resources to and the knowledge of where my family originates, I would indeed return to Africa, my original home. I don’t really feel safe in America as it such a target by peoples of other nations, who have just as much reason to have spiteful, angry feelings for past behaviors as many Blacks in America do.
reallyME said in the racism thread:
It is in the culture, no matter what you say about it or how much you love them, most of them were raised in an aggressive environment, seeing their mothers and sisters and brothers beaten by a domineering parent...that's been shown throughout history too...why that is? I'm not sure...displaced aggression from the slavery days maybe? I don't know, but I've seen it for years.
I believe you’ve made a few valid points here and I would like to add to them if I may. The institutions of slavery and indentured servantism, left a horrific, indelible mark on it’s victims both white and black in the US. It’s effects have been felt intensely since Emancipation in 1863 and will probably be a hot-button issue forever. It’s true, a lot, I wouldn’t say most, (I think non-Blacks would be surprised at just how many “normal,” functional, Black household’s exist, even in situations of poverty), black children witness aggressive environment’s if not in their own homes, then definitely in the homes of their peers, and/or extended family.
Personally, the scenario you describe is my own situation growing up, my parents were both domineering, there was domestic violence between them, and they both slapped, pinched, and “switched” the crap outta me. My father preferred ritual beatings, where you get beat once daily for whatever, didn’t matter, I think it was a sexual thing, actually. My mother was big on backhand slaps across the lips and intense pinches to the thigh during church. I, too, thought this was the norm for Black children, until I began to poll my peers in school and throughout life. Although some could relate, most of my black friends, were surprised that I got so many beatings and were curious of the fact that I could not recall specifically what my beatings (and subsequent bruises) were for. I’ve learned over time, that there is indeed a theme that evolves that distinguishes “these black people” that you get ingrained in your head as being rough, sensitive, violent, unruly, people who need to “pull themselves up from the bootstraps” and move out of this generational cycle of laziness and entitlement…from the few friends you have that are Black.
Depending on where you live, reallyME, you may see that the angry, abusive Black is more the exception than the rule when you account for situations of low-income or poverty. Poverty is highly frustrating and even without the history of slavery, racial profiling, and Black paranoia, it is enough to drive any man to destruction. When you account for the horrible legacy generational poverty leaves, you begin to see that it is not the skin color that is determining these deleterious symptoms, it is the economics and accompanying sense of hopelessness that drive men to criminal behavior. When the backs of blacks are pressed up against the wall, you all have a pretty good idea of what results, it is the great source of media entertainment and interest.
In cases where income is adequate to meet the economic demands, you see less abuse and crime, I'm sure. And where you do see it, it's probably pure Nism. My point reallyME: there is far more to take into account when considering trends among cultural groups, not just race. Race isn't even a scientific construct. It is a social construct. When you peel away the skin, we are frighteningly alike, all of us.
Which is where I bring back the point about the difference between poor white trash and “rednecks” as told to me by newest girlfriends. Po’ white trash are those guys you see on the TV show “COPS,” with their trailer homes and their “wife-beater” undershirts on, smoking their crack, crystal meth, oxycontin, or whatever, and drunk as all get out trying to convince the policeman to let him go. Hmmm.. lots of criminal and abuse issues there. Rednecks, on the other hand, are a breed of proud Americans who can be wealthy or not, tend to own lots of rural land, on which they hunt and park their pickup trucks with necessary gun-racks. They love to have fun, are down to earth, and don’t tend to get into the high siddity ways of the “northerners” Interesting, but both are still a little scary to me though. Visions of black men being dragged by pickup trucks and lynched come to mind with both categories. Is this the same as the sweeping generalizations that get made that most Black people are "niggers" or "ghetto?"
Plucky and Stormchild, I appreciate your bravery. This is not an easy cause for which to stand up. Thank you for your attention to the nuances of racism. The subtle overtures are what really matter in intimate relationships with each other. When you are trying to establish trust and rapport, these are the things I tend to evaluate when reaching out to members of another race. It is not an obligation for people to express tolerance and sensitivity, it is an opportunity. You took this opportunity and I’m certainly grateful for it. Plucky said it best:
"...we are all victims of racism, if we live in a society with racism."
A final note to all, If you want your intimate dinner parties to go swimmingly, ban discussions regarding politics, religion, and race. It always leaves everyone feeling a little dirty and upset. But for the purposes of this board, I’m glad we can talk about this.
Tiffany
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hi Tiffany,
Glad to see you back :)
That really sucks about your family. Can I ask, why do you need to go back home? Is it guilt driving you?
penelope bean
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I don't think it's just guilt really. I have this theory that if I parcel my time to them, in increments I can handle it. I may be able to maintain some type of relationship for my daughter's sake and not be forever closed off by my family. It seems that I feel more lost and alone in the world when I think of myself as completely disconnected from them. I have forgiven my parents for past pain, but in trying to protect myself from current and future pain, I've attempted to be very careful and to mask my true feelings and "dance the dance" when I'm around them. Sometimes, they provoke me, and I "break character" to whip out a sharp glance or an unapproving gesture but typically, "I am going through the motions" to try to placate them and keep my life out of harm's way. Because once they've set their sights on me, it's far more trouble than when I give them small pieces of me.
It is expensive though. These times become times of great stress for me. I have Irritable Bowel and when I eat right, there's usually no bleeding, bloating, or cramps. When the family is in the picture, no matter how strictly I stay away from offending foods, I experiencing cramps and bleeding. I was just thinking I should probably get on the therapy they have for this course of symptoms but I don't want to take psyche-meds. Worrying about them, is far worse than dealing with them, but when I go to visit them they drain my blood, and zap my energy, just like vampires. I may leave my home in a happy mood, with every intention of maintaining clear boundaries and not getting caught up in thier selfish, needy obligations, but I always return home having been almost swallowed whole by their heavy oppression. My jealous mother and sister are like "witches" to me who put on a pleasant face when I 'm around, but whose hearts grow green and pus-filled with spite and envy for what I have once I'm gone. My younger sister hates that I have found love with my husband, that I have found a career for myself, that I am not grossly overweight, and that my daughter is happy. She doesn't outright tell me so, she makes crude comments regarding how "we don't all have fathers for our little girls... or that she would be small, too if she hadn't had her chronic back pain." Anyway, I guess I'm thinking as I'm writing and I'm reflecting on why I do still go around them. I sense the danger but actually I worry about their outright displays of anger far greater. I also pity their current situations, even though they ridiculed me when I struck out on my own in life. They were doing quite well, when I left and they were sure I would return "home" after seeing how cruel and unforgiving the world is. Four years later, they are quite pitiful and I am having a difficult time watching their chickens come home to roost. I don't necessarily want to rescue them from their inevitable commupance, but it's still difficult when all is going so well for me right now.
So I'd have to say, it's part wanting to keep your enemies closer, part anxiety, part obligation, and part love that keep me going back. It's a frickin' conundrum and I haven't found full peace in my convictions just yet. I guess that's why my body is going bananas while my disposition remains ambivalent.
Tiffany
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Hi Tiff,
"I’m sure mud is not pleased with that statement...."
If that's what it took to get you to post here again that statement is fine by me. :D
It's very good to hear from you. I consider you a buddy too and have missed you.
I actually agree with the large majority of what you say.
Hope you have time to keep posting.
And I'm very sorry you haven't been able to extricate yourself from your family drama.
Whatever keeps you going back I hope you put on the whole armor of God before you get there. Sounds like you'll need it.
mud
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HI Tiffany ,
Yes when we peel away the skin we are frighteningly alike .
Why that should sunrise anyone is beyond me.
Glad you are back. :D
MoonLight
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How come no psyche meds? Did you have a bad experience?
I'm on Effexor XR (only 75 mg a day) and it's the greatest thing that ever happened to my depression, which I never even realized I had until I got on these drugs.
Irritable bowel does not sound like fun. How old is your daughter? Maybe soon you won't have to keep going back as she'll be old enough to visit herself if she wants to?
hugs,
pb
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Welcome (back), Tiffany.
From Adam to Noah and on down the line, I believe that we're all God's creations and nothing but human pride interferes with folks' eyesight where that's concerned. Glad you're here, but sorry you're about to re-enter the warzone. Mud's right... cinch up that belt of truth and all will be well.
Hope
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Hey guys,
I need some help on a dilemma I'm having with regards to my brother, the oldest, a suspected N. He's having the aforementioned court date later this week and he's asked my parents to have a few words on his behalf. My mother told me this as she went on about how she was having so much stress herself and that she told him to just jot a few words down for her to say and she would say them at the hearing. His recent drug binges led him back to theivery and this time he chose the mall, Sear's or JCPenny's someplace like that. To me, when a person shoplifts in a mall major department store like that, they'd just assume walk up to the security guards, turn around, cross wrists and beg them to put the cuffs on him. Well, they did him one better. By the time they caught up with brother, they had beat him nice and proper, dislocated a hip, or so the story goes. Anyway, as the family, all except me of course, have been visiting him in jail, he's been sending back the word that he's hurting, in pain with this "abuse" he suffered with the guards. But I think his abuse began much earlier.
Since I was a kid, I always wanted to be needed or even regarded by my brother. He was nine years older, very popular and handsome, smart as any man I knew until I met my husband. He was always in trouble, but he was by far, the "favored child." He was the first child born to her, by a much older man who wooed my mother when she was a teenager fresh from "the country" in a major metropolitin city. When he was born, my mother sent my brother back to her town of origin to be raised by our grandmother as my mother worked and got her education minus the stigma of being an unwed mother. Three years later, she met my father, whom according to her, she married because he was "really nice" to my brother and more importantly, they sort of looked alike. So when she came back home to work, with her son and husband, who gave him his last name, no one knew that my father was not my brother's father. As a matter of fact, I didn't know until less than a decade ago, when someone at church let it leak during gossip. Anyway, I have a feeling that after a time, my father was not so kind to my brother and that there was jealousy between them. I also have a suspicion that my father may have been sexually abusive to my brother when he was a tot. My brother, has always been troubled and he would never say what it is that bothers him so. He will not admit what makes him try to kill himself with drugs and mistreat his children and their mothers so badly.
I believe it is the way he was reared and the fact that no one will tell him of his own natural father. Apparently, he was some big N who was a sharp with his clothes and his tounge. I almost get the feeling that he may have been some kind of pimp or something. Anyway, by the time her final three children came along, stairstep in age, me in the middle, my parents had denounced our family's past and had become "born again" holy rollers. My brother suffered a lot of abuse there, too. The church, according to my brother, changed my father and made him cold towards him. He no longer showed him any attention and he yelled at him and tried to beat him when he did. My mother and my father fought endlessly about my brother. She spoiled him with multiple bikes for Christmas and expensive clothes, toys, and eventually cars and gadgets. My parents could never agree on what to do with him when he was getting in so much trouble in school. But each time, he went to jail, my mother, would bail him out, or keep lots of money on his jail account, or "put him up" completely equipped once he got out. She would give him position in her company. He would excel. She would become jealous and wield her CEO power to undo what he typically had done so well. He would be left to repair the carnage. She would prove the point that he would never be better than her. He would lose interest in the project. Depressed, he would re-connect with the old gang, they would use "old, familiar" ways to deal with problems. He would steal from her to support his binge. She would become embarrassed, rage at him with awful tirades about his shortcomings, which would lead him to some big ACT, generally, of crime that would lead him back to jail, where she would begin the process all over again. It was cyclic, it was sick.
Well, this time, she's got bigger fish to fry. The money has dried up, so she can't love him with material things and cash anymore. She's desperate, but ambivalent. She claims she can't focus on what to say on his behalf at the hearing. But I think she's willing to let him go, now because she needs to bring the focus in on herself. He knows he looking at a lot of prison time, but I think he's really crying out for some sympathy or empathy or whatever from his mother and in true Nmom fashion, neglect him when he needs her the most. Here's where I come in, should I make an attempt to help him and say some words on his behalf. I told her I might help her with some words to say, but she instantly "volunteered" me to say something, especially since the last time there was a hearing of this sort, my father is the one who did him in with negative commentary.
I'm thinking this is an opportnity for me to show my brother that I care about him and feel for him, something I always wanted to do but was fearful, uncomfortable or unsure. I'm confused, I could use a little advice.
Tiffany
P.S. Hiya Mud and Moonlight and Penelope, are you Bean? If so, hey to ya! And no experience with psyche meds, I just have a real difficult time trusting things and worry about losing control somehow. I think I should be able to manage my own emotions. But lately, no matter how cool things seem on the surface, there's been dis-ease underneath and I'm feeling like I can't control that either. My daughter is 6 and I would NEVER let her visit them un-attended by me or my husband. I think they're just waiting for that to happen so they can pounce. I love her too much to put her in harm's way. And if I found out that they abused her, I would probably snap. To keep that from happening, I try to keep distance and have her see them about four times a year. She has no clue how sick they are. She loves them and is a bubble of joy when she's around them. The family talks of keeping her overnight and what not; I usually make up an excuse and get out of "Dodge."
Thanks for the spiritual advice CH and mud. I do look at this sitation with my family as spiritual warfare.
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Hiya Tiffany
Good to hear from you again…. I’m glad college is going well.
Families hey! Hope you’ve got your armoured suit ready?
Regarding your brother, it’s so difficult, but I think you should go with your gut feeling. Do you really need to stand up in court to show your brother you care? Do you want to do it? And also, from how you describe it, maybe this is something your Mum needs to do.
With some families I feel it’s easy to take the responsibility from our parents, for a quiet life it’s easier to do it ourselves, to not rock the boat. If you did stand up in court, would the reason be to not rock the boat?
Take care
Love H&H xx
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Good Morning Tiffany:
Welcome back! I thought I was the only one on earth who felt similar to this:
School, and all it’s running around and examinations, is a happy, welcome escape from all this drama and has been so for me, every since kindergarten.
Your voice sounds so calm, perceptive and sensible to me. Glad you're here.
If you follow your heart and speak in court to support your brother, what's the worst thing that will happen?
:D Sela
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Hi Tiffany,
I'm so glad you're back and I was blown away by what you wrote on the other thread. Tsunami blown away. Thank you so much for sharing it and speaking it and stating it. It's very hard for people to see that I can love my hometown and be deeply angry with it, for all the same reasons.
About this, best thing I can do is play with what you might say based on the truths you've written here (I just took out some bits and stuck in some transitions). Hope this points one way you might go:
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Your Honor:
Since I was a kid, I have always admired my brother. He was nine years older, very popular and handsome, as smart as any man I knew until I met my husband. He was always in trouble, but he was by far, the "favored child." He was the first child born to my mother by a much older man who wooed my mother when she was a teenager fresh from "the country" in a ____________. When he was born, my mother sent my brother back to ___________ to be raised by our grandmother so she could work and get her education without the stigma of being an unwed mother. So his first experience was of being abandoned. Three years later, my mother met my father, whom according to her, she married because he was "really nice" to my brother and more importantly, they sort of looked alike. So then she took my brother away from my grandmother (abandonment again at age 3), and when she came back home to work (loss of his familiar home), with her son and husband, who gave him his last name, no one knew that my father was not my brother's father. I didn't know myself until less than a decade ago, when someone at church was gosspiping. I have a feeling that after a time, my father was not kind to my brother and that there was jealousy between them. I also have a suspicion that my father may have been sexually abusive to my brother when he was a tot. My brother has always been troubled and he would never say what it is that bothers him so. He will not admit what makes him try to kill himself with drugs and mistreat his children and their mothers so badly.
I believe it is the abandonment, absue and confusion of the way he was reared and the fact that no one will tell him about his own natural father. Also, by the time the last three children came along, my parents had denounced our family's past and had become "born again" in ax extremely fundamentalist church. My brother suffered a lot of abuse there, too. The church, according to my brother, changed my father and made him cold towards him. He no longer showed him any attention except for yelling at him and trying to beat him. My mother and my father fought endlessly about my brother.
What I believe he needs, your honor, is not incarceration but inpatient drug rehabilitation, with counselors who may help him to start to understand and manage his anger. With his issues of abandonment, loss, abuse and addiction, he needs some help. He is still a very smart man, so I hope you will give him the opportunity to reclaim his life and live up to his full promise.
Thank you.
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Just thoughts, trying to imagine I were you and I was there...
Hops
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I'm thinking this is an opportnity for me to show my brother that I care about him and feel for him
In that sentence I see what you think you should do and what you think your brother would like you to do, but what do you think God would have you do?
Maybe visiting your brother in jail, one on one, and telling him why you will or won't speak on his behalf is more important for hm in the long run than what you could say in court. Or perhaps in a letter if its too stressful in person.
If he is an N then you are likely wasting your efforts at showing him you care, by whatever way you choose.
Love is not always demonstrated by indulgence. Sometimes it's demonstrated by letting the person learn the consequences of their behavior, and letting them learn it on their own. I don't know if this is one of those cases.
I don't know what you should do. I just think you should search your heart for what is best for him. What's best for him might not even be what's best for you, but sometimes that's what love is all about.
Personally I don't understand how you can tolerate being around any of these people.
mud
mud
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Very well said, Mud.
Tiffany, praying here that you will know God's will in this.
Hope
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Dear Tiffany,
It is good to meet you here. I've been here since about February, perhaps we have overlapped a bit as Jordanspeeps sounds familiar to me.
Your brother's story is tragic and it seems like he never really had a chance in this life. It is very hard to tell what, if anything, would make a difference in his life at this point in time. It is entirely possible that the law will override any statements made by anyone now. Perhaps any statements are just for the record. Do you know what the exceptions are for the "three strikes and you're out"?
My suggestion is to let your mother take care of her part of it (or not take care of it since she seems to not want to make a statement). If you have the time, maybe write out what you might say from your heart. Whatever words you might come up with could very well show your brother love. Love that he might need to remember when he goes to prison, which it sounds like he will.
If, when you are done writing, it just doesn't set right with you, then you don't have to say anything. To me the thing that might make a difference is between you and your brother, not you and your mother, or you and the court system.
While it is possible that the only way he will learn from his actions is to suffer the consequences, I suspect that prison will not help him learn one single thing useful. Prison is for punishment, not rehabilitation. I hope that there is a way for him to enter a program that focuses on rehabilitation. I hope that he has an easier journey ahead of him. But that may not be. You can show him you love him, but don't lose yourself in the process. This may be much bigger than anything you can do for him at this point in time.
Pennyplant
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Hey folks,
Thanks for the response and advice. It's nice to meet some of you and great to hear again from you others. :)
Update: The court date was today, sooner in the week than I had expected. I had a chance to speak to my mother on the telephone before she entered the courtroom this morning and she refused to allow any discussion of my brother; she spent the entire time talking about the latest problems arising in the growing snowball that is her current financial fall. She is attempting to rally my father and other siblings around her to help her in this crisis. For me, she wants to turn some of her assets, over into my name thus avoiding lein or levy action that would inevitably affect every thing under her social security number. (No, she was not incorporated; she failed to follow up on the paperwork that would protect her private assets in a circumstance like this very one). She was also complaining of her latest health symptom with her lungs: she was feeling like she was having to breathe deeper to get air. She was also managing to get in some complaints about her legs "turning dark" and a suspicion that she was having circulation problems. She was almost at tears saying how it was between my sister and I to help her through this crisis. During this conversation, she reiterated that my sister was "okay", that she was actually, "really smart," She fumbled around uneasily when talking about the "problem" with my sister. She had no initiative and couldn't anticipate my mother's needs and she really couldn't talk business strategy with her the way she can with me. And in a labile fury my mother bellowed at me, "Look, we need to get together about this stuff and we need to put something into these businesses and figure how to get what we can out of them!" Silence from me. She barks at me that she has to go, she's at the courtroom right now.
As for my brother, of course I had to endure the aforementioned conversation in order to arrive at the outcome. His court appointed attorney was able to have a continuance on the basis that he was trying to get my brother into a dual treatment program for his drug addiction and his untreated bipolar disorder. My mother finished the gloomily delivered statement with a comment to the lawyer regarding his past history with psychiatric intervention. She mentioned his record with non-compliance and the lawyer reminded her that he told my brother if he wanted to bring that 8-9 year number down, he would need to make more than a good attempt at getting something out of this program. I couldn't contain my, "oh, well, that's good..." She didn't seem impressed either way. She immediately went into a conversation regarding her Last Will and Testement and how she wants us all to rally around her as she prepares to lay down and die, I guess. She said a few days ago that with all the death going on around us lately, she didn't think death was so bad and that she welcomes it. And she screamed, "What would happen if I died today!?" as though she NEEDS to know if we really care or not and whether or not we really know just how bad it would be for us with her mountain of debt.
Here is how I'm planning to deal with this. I've decided that I will get up early tommorow morning, drive to this town, and meet with my mother and sister. She told me today after we agreed to a time to meet, that she planned to uninvite my father, right there on the spot during the conversation after initially saying that he and her were preparing to meet at her church today for prayer over her circumstances and that he would be part of the family conversation regarding the plan for her estate . And now, he will not be included in this conversation regarding her future financial plans? Why is that, I wonder? Why does she keep excluding him from interactions where I'm involved? Anyway, it doesn't matter, tommorow I will make it clear to my mother and sister that during the past six years, I've taken great efforts to un-enmesh my life from thiers and to figure out how to survive in the world on my own. I have to remind her of the constant themes of her abandonment in my times of direst need throughout life that led me to this way. I have to tell her that she would be setting me up for financial ruin, if the officials from which she is trying to hide set their sights on me and my business. I need for my sister to know that I am not in competition with her for Mom's possessions and that she deserves to control those things since she's put all these years in "taking care" of Mom. I also need to tell her to remove me as Executor of her Estate to remove all doubt that I am waiting for her to die so that I can pawn her Mercedes and sell of her few pieces of property. Puuulease! Her debts frighten me and it's bad enough that I'll probably be approached regarding her debts when she dies anyway. Fortunately for me, unfortunately for most, the Commonwealth in which I live is a probate state where unless she has a Trust, which I advised her on numerous occasions to acquire for her own peace of mind, her assets will be frozen until all her tax debts are paid off. And right now, it looks like her tax debts alone outweigh her assets and if she insists on leaving me as Executor of her estate, as a final "Screw you!" I will just allow the Commonwealth to do what it naturally does and not pay for the expensive lawyer to "play the probate game" the way most people who want their parent's assets do. I think I should warn my mother and sister of this so that they can make other plans. I know how N's like to confuse and betray their loved one's with their Final wishes.
With my family, it's like you open a Pandora's Box anytime you have a conversation with them. Being overly busy with school kept me from having the mental space to internalize what was going on down there and for some reason they were holding off from giving all the morbid details to every situation until I finished Summer Session. Now, that it's being dumped in my lap in this way, I believe they feel entitled to my time and sacrifice. I feel a strong need to initiate No Contact again. "No contact" never really happens though, they always manage to seep back in and over time they're acting as though things were never strained between us, it is amazing how short their memories are.
After this convo on tomorrow I will return to the promising, pleasure-filled vacation I had planned for the rest of my summer. I was hoping to catch a few novels, take my kid to Sea World, go on a romantic trip with my hubby and to prepare for Pathophysiology in the Fall Semester. My husband and I have felt for years that this day would come when just as our lives were on an upswing, her's would falling apart and she would use guilt and manipulation to try to keep me entangled with her. Over the past couple of years I would hear her say things like, "Oh, my goodness Tiffany, I haven't paid my employment taxes for months," to the thought of which I would shudder when considering the conseqences, given the fact that she's already under strict instructions from the IRS to "remain current" from former delinquencies. She hates being lectured to and would always have some justification or excuse, so I would bite my tongue knowing that eventually, if she didn't use self-discipline this would catch up with her. Meanwhile, she rented new adjoining apartments for herself and my sister, payed all the living expenses for my three grown siblings to include vehicles, cell phones, salaries, meals, child support, etc. And this, I believe was to establish loyalty and form a basis for guilt and manipulation when she became home-bound and would need the company to keep her sane. She's bitter and no one likes to be around her, but she abhors being alone.
This is a time for strength. I'm praying for the right words and demeanor that will make her understand that I'm being true to my convictions. Thanks guys, for giving a hoot. I'll give an update on tomorrow's convo. I''m thinking she'll either flip out and go into a rage, (I'm practicing my look of indifference, you should see it, it's kinda cool :|), or she will go into "baby mode" where she tossing things around, pouts, cries some, and refuses to reason, (What she doesn't know is that in raising a 6 year old, I have mastered an art of appearing unimpressed as a way to snap her out of her tantrums). Ns are big five-year olds anyway! Either way, the goal is to get out of there with all parties involved understanding that I don't want to be all wrapped up in the family's individual life problems anymore and to please let me be to live my life and be myself.
Tiff
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Hi Tiffany,
I'm glad you're back, and so sorry you are feeling such dread.
I felt it too just reading. I know how Ns manipulate estate issues.
I think it's terrific that you've made your own way and succeeded,
and despite their jealousy, there is no point in sacrificing your hard-earned
stability to join her downfall.
It is very sad, to feel this way about your family.
It sounds like the best news there could be about your brother.
Who knows, maybe out of all of them, he'll be the one to turn around.
I hope tomorrow you feel steady and calm, and hang on to your
own self.
You are brave to find the space between. That has to be very difficult.
Hops
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Tiffany, this sounds like big stuff. Stay firm and I'll keep you in my prayers.
Pennyplant
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Penelope Bean, you are on Effexor? well, I'm not sure when you got on it, but I have seen a definite change in you for a while now, so I am proud of you for taking that step with the meds. They sure do help some people and give you a chance to experience thinking one or two thoughts at a time too, without being stuck in "rehash" mode even. Some very close friends of mine are on antidepressant meds with GREAT results! There is nothing to be ashamed of in taking meds...the brain is a complicated thing that often benefits from adjustment of its chemicals. Blessya, Penelope
Tiffany: It’s true, a lot, I wouldn’t say most, (I think non-Blacks would be surprised at just how many “normal,” functional, Black household’s exist, even in situations of poverty), black children witness aggressive environment’s if not in their own homes, then definitely in the homes of their peers, and/or extended family.
you are right, I'd not only be be surprised about about black people having "civil" homes, but I'd be SHOCKED, because from my experience of being in/living in a few different parts of the USA, I have seen what you described mostly...pinching, switching, threatening. I would LOVE to find a black family that didn't act like that...just haven't seen any as of yet. I live in Illinois and have lived in Buffalo, NY before that, where chairs would be thrown through windows on the street I grew up in, by black angry men. Stereotyping? Possibly, so show me otherwise please...show me another black person/family, who did not live that way in their family, with their children. Pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeease.
~ReallyME, Laura
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Hey guys,
I did i! I did it! I made it back home in one piece. I didn't jeopardise my future or compromise my stand. It took about four hours of just listening to her going on and on with her intended plans for my sister and me to take ownership of her properties that the IRS doesn't know about yet. She went on, presumptiously, about how she was going to need us to promise in writing that we would do as she wishes with the assets once in our own names so that she knew she could trust us. To this, I laughed internally. She began to reveal her true financial state and it was horrifying. She admitted to being in a half a million dollars worth of total tax debt. (WHOA, I was thinking somewhere around 250K, actually). She also admitted that as of today she only had three more clients than myself. Now this floored me, as she has always had three to four-FOLD the number of my clients. Recently a disgruntled former manager of 18 years or more resigned from her to start a similar business taking six of my mother's clients and thier associated employees with her to start her new company. Other than that, I guess the clients were just unhappy and began to transfer to other agencies.
My mother was feeling very much like the weight of the world was falling down on her. She showed me a letter from the state licensing board advising of random audits to Nurse Practitioners where they would be evaulating their records to assure that licensed RNs have been taking the required continuing education credits that the field requires. Well, as you may have guessed, she hasn't got one continuing ed credit, not one. in 20 years. She did make it clear to me that prior to this letter and the sudden crisis in which she now finds herself, she was considering, returning to school to take some more "assessment" classes to freshen up her nursing skills. This, she said to remind me of her tendency in the past, to start a new school program everytime I did, (when I went away to undergraduate university she went to pick up a master's degree; when I went to get my master's, she returned to school to get her doctorate (in theology, no less), and now as I return for this bachelor's in nursing, she's suddenly interested in a few nursing courses again). Honestly, I think the only thing that kept her from competing against me in this way again, was her bad money problems. She just doesn't have it to throw around anymore.
She also made it clear, yesterday, that she is "raising" my sister to compete with me. Except only she will serve as my sister's partner in life, living with her, raising my niece, and running this business together. My mother's idea is that my sister will take some things in her name, (e.g., the business, the rental properties, the vehicles), and under my advisement will attempt to sell some of the assets, the proceeds from which I would hold in my name and assure gets properly administered to her retirement in an assisted living facility. She will keep the "big house" that has the IRS lien on it, as the sale of it would guarantee that the equity would go to the IRS. Hmmm... I thought and spoke. "So what are you going to do about the tax debt?" She looked at me with wild eyes and didn't immediately answer the question. After going on about her evasive plan that included me selling off property, doing a mountain of paperwork, making embarrasing phone calls, holding onto large sums of money, and then advising on the best way to allocate it, I let her teter out. She was not getting an affirmative response from me all along the way, this was frustrating to her, I could see. She finally offered me cash from her 100K insurance policy when she dies, to dole out whatever I wished to my siblings, if I would just take care of these things for her now. After a long silence before which she begged to know what I'm willing to do for her, I said in a quiet still voice.
"Actually, I think [my sister] should be in charge of things. She's been there for you these past several years and she's doing her best. I think it would be best for me to focus on my own family right now, and establish the very same things you're speaking of now, for my own daughter. I'm just starting out in life and I need to secure my own future. I can be a listening ear, but I cannot promise to perform on your behalf as your debts terrify me. Assuming your debts could place my future in jeopardy and the IRS has ways of finding things like this. I don't need your inheritance money. You feel as though you may die, due to the stress, but you may live another 15 years and if that's so, you will need all of your resources for your retirement, and money tends to run out quickly you know, especially with doctors bills and medications. My sister's been there for you, I think it's only fair that she runs the show."
My sister seemed suprised and happy to hear me say this and nodded her head in agreement. She gave a brief account of how difficult it is working for mom and how she just feels inadequate with regards to what it takes to run a business. She admitted that on a daily basis mother hurts her feelings in the office the way she talks to her and assumes she should know things about the company. She says this is stressful work and she's needs help and advice on the best way to run it. With regards to the rental properties, my sister quickly said as a "joke" to me, "I think we should sell them all and split it, ha, ha, ha!" To which, I raised an eyebrow and looked at mother who was on the telephone at the time. She has no idea of my sister's hand in her current and future downfall and I was glad I made it clear to my sister that I think she should be in charge of mother's affairs, not me. My mother was clearly disappointed in me, as she was hoping to rally her resources. She did tell me that she respected me and my decisions in life and would be glad if she could have my listening ear, some advice, and my prayers. All of which, I can, at my own pace, accommodate.
She did throw in later, that she would just get my sister to go to nursing school, take the money, buy them both a house down in the country, and run those businesses until they are great again. She also went on and on about how she wasn't just going to evade the IRS altogether, she said maybe she would sell the house and let the equity go to the debt, as a fleeting thought. She finished processing out loud mumbling about how she didn't think this would put my sister in trouble in any way, because she would never do anything to place my sister's future in jeopardy.... Well, mom, I don't know about that there, but whatever!
As for my brother, I am glad he has bought a little more time to think about his situation. Unfortunately, though I think mudpup's observations may hold true. He is an N. He would probably have taken my act of kindness as an "in" to my psyche and tried to do a little damage there. From my experience, N's don't necessarily appreciate kindness shown toward them. Sometimes they think it makes them look weak or inadequate. I think what he needs and wants should come from our mom, not so much me. Sometimes, I think I may as well be his third cousin or a family friend when it comes to just how well I know him and am expected to be there for him. I do like the idea given about composing a letter that says how I feel and sending it to him. It would be nice to be able to bond, but honestly, outside of what I could do to help him out of his current bind, I don't even think he cares. But I love him anyway, and I wish the best for him.
Thanks for the encouragement, guys. I feel blessed to have friends with such insight and concern.
Tiffany
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Tiffany,
I just think you're so amazing... and wonderfully blessed... and a clear example of the strength and courage God gives to those who will rely on Him. Wow. Thanks so much for sharing your story with us.
Hope
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hey reallyME,
We've gotta do something about that, sweetie. There are millions of examples of positive Black family experiences void of drama and abuse. Take my husband's family. I'm blessed to have met him and been embraced by his family given my own familial inclinations. Just this coming weekend is our family reunion where we are expecting about 500-600 family members coming from all over the US to re-connect and celebrate the family ties. Tis true there are the small share of trouble-makers, as with any family, however this family is an awesome example of success, education, healthiness, and love. I'm so glad for my daughter that this is her reality, and not the one you painfully experience.
Aside from my own in-laws, I live in a middle class urban Black neighborhood that is involved currently in the nationwide, re-urbanization movement. My neighborhood is considered to be "in transition" as many Whites have taken a renewed interest in the beautiful, huge, well-built, two-story early 20th century colonial style homes left to Blacks in the 70s and 80s during "white flight" and sub-urbanization. It is a fascinating phenomenon to witness and I mention it to relate the way perspective affects reality. The old black families welcome the integration and the neighborhood improvements that will automatically come with White presence.
Can it be possible, reallyME that there are no functional, safe, healthy Black families, in existence? Of course not. Your own personal reality is skewed by your limited experiences with what sounds like poor, desperate Blacks, (Throwing chairs out of windows? Where the heck do you live?) Have you spent any considerable time with poor, desperate Whites? I'm not sure that if you had, you would feel so comfortable characterizing all Blacks in such a sweeping, generalized way. White people do indeed act a fool from time to time and I'm almost positive they toss chairs from windows). And reallyMe, if you need just ONE example of a civil black household in order to believe they even exist, take my own. My husband and I have never laid a hand on one another or our child. We are both educated property and business owners, without criminal records who send our daughter to private school, ballet, and swimming lessons. We are striving to be taken seriously in this society and to not be seen as just another group of niggers taking up space.
Your stereotyping effects people like us moreso than the people you witness everyday, because this is not our reality yet we are constantly being judged within the context of criminality and abuse. If I were to meet you on the street, you would probably place that stigma on me undeservingly. Please, reallyME, get outside of your neighborhood. See some of what else the world has to offer. I see this is an issue and a life theme for you and coming to resolution about your ambivalent feelings would benefit you greatly. There are a lot of cool-headed, even-tempered, wonderfully CIVILl Black persons who would absolutely love to meet you and disprove this sterotype including myself.
Best to you reallyMe
Tiffany
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RM,
Writing this to you as a sister in Christ. Maybe this would be best done as a personal message, but I've never begun that practice and really don't want to start now.
From what you've said here, it sounds like you are unable to accept things as true unless you've personally seen the evidence with your own eyes. I don't understand that, especially since you attest to faith in a God whom you cannot see. I also don't understand how you can think the way you do if you recognize the changing power of God upon a person's life. Do you recognize that power of the rebirth experience? Do you think somehow that the color of a person's skin prevents God from changing that aspect of his life which might bring about an atmosphere of violence within his home?
I hope you'll be able to think this through and see how what you're saying here doesn't appear to line up with what you say you believe about God. I think that we all run up against things at times where God shows us areas in which He's calling upon us to grow and mature... I know that I do, regularly! I hope you'll receive this in the spirit in which it's offered and consider really taking a closer look at your own mindset re: this issue.
Hope
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Tiff,
I wouldn't be surprised if your mother and sister end up being prosecuted if they try to do what she is describing. The IRS tends to look on fraud with a rather stern eye, as I'm sure you know. Good job in protecting yourself and being wise as a serpent.
RM,
I have to agree with Tiff and CH here. My BIL is a black man and the most wondeful, gentle Christian husband and father you could ever hope to meet. And one of our best friend's son in law is a gentle giant of a black man. They each have four wonderful, happy kids.
If you combine poverty with the new 'morality' you end up with the mess we have now, for all races.
mud
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Hi Tiffany,
I am awed by your conduct, poise and empathy (while holding your boundaries).
And not just in court.
It is dismaying to me that you had to labor through a defense of the existence of kind, healthy black families. It is amazing to me how graciously you did it. It is very sad that anyone could conjecture the opposite of what makes logical sense, but that's what stereotypes are. It may be a problem of lack of imagination or some sort of educational limitation.
Poverty, inadequate schools, and illiteracy all breed desperation and violence. This is true for green people. I can guess this because although I've never known any violent green people, I know human beings, so I know it would be beyond absurd to tar all green people with the same brush.
I won't bother testifying about token nice black people I know.
Forgive my sarcasm.
Again, hearty congrats on your courage and sense with your family.
Hops
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I did i! I did it! I made it back home in one piece. I didn't jeopardise my future or compromise my stand.
Magnificent, Tiffany!!!!! Thank you for sharing the whole story and congratulations on your accomplishment. This story is such a great example of both the effects of narcissism and the healing process in all its glory. Just beautiful. You really did do it!!!
Pennyplant
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There are millions of examples of positive Black family experiences void of drama and abuse. Take my husband's family. I'm blessed to have met him and been embraced by his family given my own familial inclinations. Just this coming weekend is our family reunion where we are expecting about 500-600 family members coming from all over the US to re-connect and celebrate the family ties. Tis true there are the small share of trouble-makers, as with any family, however this family is an awesome example of success, education, healthiness, and love. I'm so glad for my daughter that this is her reality, and not the one you painfully experience.
Aside from my own in-laws, I live in a middle class urban Black neighborhood that is involved currently in the nationwide, re-urbanization movement. My neighborhood is considered to be "in transition" as many Whites have taken a renewed interest in the beautiful, huge, well-built, two-story early 20th century colonial style homes left to Blacks in the 70s and 80s during "white flight" and sub-urbanization. It is a fascinating phenomenon to witness and I mention it to relate the way perspective affects reality. The old black families welcome the integration and the neighborhood improvements that will automatically come with White presence.
This is why I don't feel comfortable sharing my very limited experiences with racism. Members of any group are perfectly capable of telling their own story. The only story each of us really knows is our own. Tiffany, I'm glad for your patience and also your willingness to be yourself here. This is how we get to know each other and how we help each other grow out of our ignorance and biases.
There is a drawback in this approach of waiting for someone to tell their own story, though. When communities don't mix at all, then how does one hear the stories? It is fortunate that anyone can and does come to this forum. But in the workplace, or in neighborhoods, you don't always get a representative mixture of people. I guess everyone has to be willing to reach out and look for opportunities to get to know each other. It's hard to step out of a comfortable niche. But a little at a time ought to be manageable.
Pennyplant
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hi Tiffany,
I just wanted to say that I'm praying for you in your time of need. You are a special deserving person, just because you're you and you're valuable. Nobody can take that away from you and you know it! 8)
hugs,
bean
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Hi Mud,
Just backtracking and realized you might've thought I was aiming my snipy "token" remark at you for your loving description of your BIL and other friend. Just in case...NOPE! Aimed at nobody...just some frustration. (Oh, my little town...)
And hear, hear: If you combine poverty with the new 'morality' you end up with the mess we have now, for all races.
(Oh, all our children...)
Hope you're having a good day.
(And I bet your BIL says similar stuff about you...) :)
Hops
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Wow Tiff! You did a fabulous job of sticking with your plan and all during that meeting! Good for you!
I'm glad your mother accepted what you said. She sure tried to play on your sympathies but you stood up well. It must have been a great relief to have that overwith eh?
Congratulations!
Sela
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I find this message board to be a really humorous place, in that, no matter what I say, it's going to be perceived totally wrongly, since, again, none of you really even know me at all.
I'm not choosing to explain myself again, regarding racism, other than to say I am not a racist, I have friends whose skin is black and are decent people, but MY EXPERIENCE...do you all HEAR THIS? MY EXPERIENCE, has been that black people raise their children in fear of being switched, pinched, abused. Do ALL of them do this? NO. Do the MAJORITY? statistics will answer that. MY EXPERIENCE was with living in areas where the people who were the most violent with their children happened to be and happen to be black.
Now, I hear Tiff saying "we're different, we are higher-class..."some could classify THAT as child-abuse if they wanted to see putting your child into so many activities as being wrong. (two N's in my world are very proud that their children are so involved in many activities too.) I'm not even deeply touching that issue here, lest more dissention start up with my name attached. Maybe another thread can be started about abuse, neglect and spoiling (the "star" children of society) I'll leave it there.
~RM
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Positively unreal.
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MY EXPERIENCE...do you all HEAR THIS? MY EXPERIENCE, has been that black people raise their children in fear of being switched, pinched, abused. Do ALL of them do this? NO. Do the MAJORITY? statistics will answer that.
Laura,
Perhaps your experience of the black community is incomplete. And perhaps it is not necessary for you to personally experience or witness things in order to accept new information about a topic. This is an opportunity to learn something new about the black community from the perspective of someone who is something of an expert on her own experience. Just take it in. It is not necessary to have set opinion on this subject.
And I will be glad to butt out if my comments are stepping over a line.
Pennyplant
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you know reallyMe,
I find this message board to be a really humorous place, in that, no matter what I say, it's going to be perceived totally wrongly, since, again, none of you really even know me at all.
I've felt those feelings before, I can empathize with that statement. You just have to keep plugging away at it until you find who (or what) reallyYou are. :)
As for this statement,
Now, I hear Tiff saying "we're different, we are higher-class..."
Would that be so terrible for me? reallyMe, to want to be of a "higher class" than these chair-throwing, baby-beating people you so dispicably describe? Would it be so "uppity" of me to want to be thought of as a decent, civil human being, worthy of positive regard? Or am I being ridiculous for wanting to raise myself and my family from such squallor and be thought of and referred to in a respectable manner? Should not the American dream be applicable to me, or would you rather I give up my quest for culture (and water-safety, :shock:), accept your jaded views of me, pick up a chair, and toss it out a window in frustration? Aw C'mon, that's not fair is it?
I would LOVE to find a black family that didn't act like that...just haven't seen any as of yet. I live in Illinois and have lived in Buffalo, NY before that, where chairs would be thrown through windows on the street I grew up in, by black angry men. Stereotyping? Possibly, so show me otherwise please...show me another black person/family, who did not live that way in their family, with their children. Pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeease.
~ReallyME, Laura
but
I am not a racist, I have friends whose skin is black and are decent people,
So it's all okay, then reallyMe. We TOTALLY understand one another :wink:
To my support buddies, thanks for all the awesome encouragement. I feel so good today, no GI problems for about 24 hours. I can feel your prayers, even of those of you reading and not writing. I'm glad I come here, despite the RANDOM outliers. :lol: I guess there's always tension on the board and there's a lot of psychological "work" that has to happen before you can come to a good, even place with yourself. It's funny how at one point early in my visiting here, I did vow to leave and never come back, but truly, where else can I go where I have all these sisters and brothers that can relate to my plight in life? It's the most difficult thing in the world to explain to the "average" non-N influenced individual, how all these sublte slights and inconsistencies add up to a maddening life with this inconsiderate, unaccountable , jerk you find yourself entagled with. When I come here, "I hit the ground running" and you guys know just what I'm dealing with. Ya'll's advice and support is invaluable to me.
later, Tiff
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You just have to keep plugging away at it until you find who (or what) reallyYou are.
lol, I am well aware of what I really am and am not. No plugging necessary.
and that was "throw chairs through the window, not out of it...the husband stood on the porch throwing chairs through the window into the living room at the wife or estranged one anyway.
I am not faulting you for wanting to live a good life at all...just saying that putting children into many activities in order to be better than ____________ isn't necessary a good thing either. WHy do I say that? My parents had me in dance lessons and art lessons and everything under the sun...I grew up to be unappreciative and a brat for a long time. GIving a child everything they want is not necessarily a mark of being "better than" the norm, was all I was saying. Not saying you are that way, but there could be a whole other discussion on that topic...do we give the kids everything they want? do we teach them they can't have everything they want?
~RM
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and that was "throw chairs through the window, not out of it..
tomato, tomahto, potato, potahto.... let's not argue. let's just call the whole thing off! :lol: :P :lol:
tiffany