Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: penelope on July 26, 2006, 05:05:11 PM
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Somebody else on here (won't mention who, but you can probably figure out who it was) reminded me of a dynamic that existed in my FOO. It was the dynamic of Tough Love.
Little boys are often taught this dynamic while little girls aren't. But little girls can learn it too. It results (I think) in hyper competetive, hyper aware, angry adults. It's a dynamic I've fought against almost my entire adult life, once I recognized it existed in me and I decided that I wanted to get rid of it as it wasn't the real me.
It manifests itself, I think, in always finding someone to hate; those who you hate become your motivation or driving force in life. You seek to do better than them, you seek to have more, you seek to Win at all cost - and it does cost dearly to go through life like this, I know, I've watched my parents go through life like this. If there is no one to hate, they must resort to sitting alone with themselves, and this is very painful. Anger is a much more comfortable feeling than sadness or depression, we've all heard that before. Imagine if it were your life?
Now you grow up and you're an adult and out in the world, and you've only ever been taught this Tough Love. Mom or Dad (or both) were always jealous of you, why should you think anyone else should be any different? Why would anyone want good things for you? They're just waiting for me to trip so they can laugh when I fall...
that's the way a child who's been Tough Loved feels.
anybody else relate? It's very easy for me to slip back into the old pattern... I can do it almost without thinking. Just pretend like the world's out to get you and respond accordingly. I spent 20 years fighting Tough Love, and I'll spend the next 20 more overcoming it's affects, I'm sure.
It does get better, a little bit, day by day. I have to remind myself who's on my side now. you?
pb
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Penelope: That totally reminds me of my Nmom and my grandfather. He was always an angry man. Never had a good word to say about anyone. Now my mom grits her teeth and uses the "hate" word an awful lot. "I hate it that these people won't listen to me." "I hate those people." Now I find myself "hating" my mom. Yes, I am angry. That generational curse runs deep.
But sometimes I just want to tell the world about my hate. The fact that I have been slighted. The fact that she is so bad. It is my driving force to take down my mom. I don't want to live like that but I cannot tolerate the woman!!!!!
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Hi Pb,
I think that just the word "love" alone means different things to different people, with some considering it a combination of ecstatic feelings and others attaching to it a deep level of commitment. I mean, look at the way the word is used... "I love my car, I love that color, I love traveling...." Sure cheapens the concept and seems to reduce love to a feeling we might get when something/someone gives us pleasure. So what happens when we no longer get pleasure from that person/thing?
Seems that "tough love" is another concept which may mean different things to different people. Because of those differences in views, it's likely been abused by those who would use it as an excuse to harm another; but as with most everything, I think it's the intent of the heart that counts.
When I think of "tough love", it's the sort that's often been recommended by folks like Dr. James Dobson. Not that I'm a huge Dobson fan, but I do see some value in what he describes as tough love in certain cases... for instance when dealing as a parent with children gone wild or even with an adulterous spouse. To me, it means holding people accountable by enforcing boundaries which don't allow for them to continue in damaging behavior (whether to themselves or to someone else). Here's part of an article I found online which better states my view of the concept and how it may be applied in positive ways:
What is “tough love?” Much has been written about this two word phrase. Some will say that tough love saved their son or daughter. Others will say it is the most heartless concept on the planet.
However, in fact, what really is “ tough love?” A sizeable group of people define it as a hard-nosed, rather rigid way of forcing people you love who are engaged in negative behavior to confront their destructive behavior and hopefully change.
Those critical of this definition of tough love believe that it is a cold and unfeeling approach to someone’s troubles.
There are other advocates of “tough love” who believe it is a powerful strategy that empowers people to change and grow. These folks define this concept as a positive form of loving, where one does not enable the troubled person to remain stuck in his or her difficulties. It demands unconditional loving with clear boundaries and the willingness to be strong when the person in trouble attempts to manipulate and use you.
This kind of tough love sometimes demands that you take some difficult actions for the sake of the troubled person. It is not about abandoning him or her, or turning your back on the person. It is really about genuine loving.
When someone is stuck in a destructive cycle of living, sometimes it is easier to enable him or her rather than empower him or her.
When we enable someone, we rarely hold them accountable or confront them with their negative choices or behaviors. We mask our enabling by calling it loving because we don’t want to hear our loved ones “talk trash” about us or accuse us of not really caring.
Empowering a troubled loved one with tough love is forcing the person to be accountable for his or her choices and decisions and being very clear that there are serious consequences if they make certain choices.
Failing to hold someone accountable, especially for destructive choices, is not loving him or her, but rather is further enabling them to possibly hurt themselves forever.
Raising teenagers and young adults today is a challenging adventure. The social rules that were once cast in cement change like the wind. Too many parents cave in to the peer pressure when it comes to setting difficult standards for their children. They don’t want to be the bad guys. For some, there is more of an emphasis on becoming their teenager’s friend rather than staying focused on being a parent.
Being a parent today means being on the firing line constantly. You have to be open and willing to set difficult boundaries and at times say no and mean no! It is not a dirty word.
To me, “Tough love” does not mean being cold or harsh. It means being clear, consistent and tenacious, even when it is hard and difficult.
Pb, what you're referring to here as "tough love" sounds more to me like roughness and coldness acted out under the guise of love, as in the case of someone who punishes another and then says, "It's for your own good". Not the same thing at all, to me. To me, tough love is not the absence of emotion/empathy, but rather a completed, genuine love which recognizes that sometimes we all need to be held accountable and all of the hand-holding in the world won't get some people out of some ruts till they're confronted with the harsher realities of life... i.e.... some behaviors are simply not acceptable. There's a big difference between being abusive and insisting on accountability, I think.
Hope
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Hi again, Pb,
Been thinking on this as I prepared supper and the realization just sunk in that I didn't at all respond to what you were saying, really. Guess I'm still at the phase of defining terms, so I'm way behind you in the process of thinking it through. I do appreciate the opportunity to respond, even if I'm still back at the starting line and you're midway around the track. Helps me alot to think aloud this way, but if it makes what you're trying to accomplish more difficult, I'll hold my thoughts. Sorry for the detour.
Hope
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Well I like the sound of that tough love better hope. :)
I was thinking about the Tough Love that is too tough for tears, the Tough Love that doesn't show emotions (it can't even identify emotions - in fact, when emotions are being felt, the mind zones out from the body).
It's interesting that our emotions are a primitive instinct; their purpose was to warn us about danger (negative emotions), or to drive us to do certain desirable things (in the case of positive emotions). That was the purpose of emotions, but what purpose do they serve us now?
I guess in a Tough Love situation, you stuff your feelings so far down inside, you barely know they're in there. You forget about them, or only choose to express a few - like anger and rage.
pb
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nope it wasn't you. No interest in fighting with you either jac
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Please pardon me for interrupting, but... once I understood what you were talkin about here, Pb, I did a google for "Big boys don't cry" and found this Reader's Digest article (you might be interested). I've only read part of it so far, but I'm wondering.... is it possible that the actual hard wiring which is present in most females gets changed to be more like the male brain when a child grows up in an emotionally flat/cold environment? Maybe the same techniques used to bring men into a deeper emotional awareness would help those who have stuffed their feelings for so long?
Anyhow, here's the article: http://www.rd.com/content/openContent.do?contentId=18053
Hope
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Interesting point, Hope.
Here's another example:
Scientists have recently discovered that not all, but a majority of gay males are the youngest of older brothers. They believe that the mother's body is attempting to have a female child after having given birth to several males, and that in some way as yet not fully understood, a genetic feminization of some sort is triggered in the fetus' brain.
Therefore, homosexuality is not a lifestyle choice, but a biological drive as natural as heterosexuality. Just as God-given as the other gifts of nature. This has always seemed logical to me given the great trauma of coping with a "contrary" sexual identify amid the other horrors of adolescence.
Hops
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very interesting article Hope. And it sums up a lot of what I couldn't really verbalize too.
I don't know about anyone else, but mens' emotional worlds fascinate me. I mean it, I'm Fascinated.
This is the best part of my job, I swear. I work with a lot of men, and they're so interesting to me, the way they interact with me and the way they interact with each other; the way they show fear (as if they're not showing it - but I can tell, why do they think I can't?), the way they can get ultracompetetive yet stay cool. The way they have to know so much about cars, and sports, and fishing, and the latest Space mission. It's like they all study the same newspapers or websites or something. They even have their own language, I swear.
It's fascinating stuff.
Tough Love can be cute, there are two different ends of the spectrum for sure. Like the guy who starts out all macho, and cool, like he's not going to admit anything in a million years, about what he's feeling- then two hours into a conversation, will break down and finally admit something he's feeling that is pretty vulnerable- like fear. Or if someone in a group of men is the first to admit "well, maybe we don't know what we're doing here.." - it's funny how all the others will deny it at first, cause, simply that would leave them feeling - well vulnerable. Or sometimes if everyone is thinking the same thing (we don't have a clue what we're doing), sometimes someone will finally admit "I'm confused" and the rest of the men will give a collective sigh of relief - like, Oh good, she said it first, so now I don't have to admit I feel that (maybe they don't know).
Tough Love is fascinating to me, truly. But simple tough feelings are too.
pb
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*sigh*
I would like you and reallyme to get off my butt. Find something else to do, K? Not your job to take care of me or my behavior, it's mine.
go away jac - find someone else to pester I'm in a great mood and don't feel like discussing anything with you. Yesterday, I had a migraine and asked you to tone down your post (the green and red bold Hurt), I see you didn't. I won't comment further what I think about your behavior, as it's not my place to do so. Live and let live jac.
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You guys..............several months ago - maybe over a year, I frequented this message board a lot. I needed it to clear my head and to figure out how I was going to deal with my Nmom. I remember a couple of people just started going at it and a biig fight broke out. Debates over tone of voice (which you can't figure out in this arena) got people going. Threads were pages and pages long until finally Dr. Grossman closed some threads because they just got out of hand. Several people quit writing because they were not allowed to state their views without someone else coming in and correcting them. And is it not true that this board is about "voicelessness?" Not being heard? So why would people jump on other people for their views? It's like invalidating the very people who do not want to be invalidated.
So, my suggestion is - state your views. And let people own their views. If you don't agree, then say you don't agree but give the person who has their views the privilege of having those views no matter how odd or annoying they may be to you personally. If you are a buddist and someone says something Christian - then let it be. And visa versa!! If you are a democrat and someone says they are a republican - big deal - as long as they let you have your voice in this board.
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I meant until you get over whatever this is you're going through jac. No need to make a grand production of it. I think you're taking things a bit too seriously that's all.
I've never stopped posting to anyone on this board. I think it's silly. I do occasionally skip over certain people's posts if I find them offensive or rude or whatever. But I don't try to dictate what others do here. It's their space too, and all are welcome by me.
Occasionally I wish others would extend me the same courtesy. I'm probably not getting picked on though, I'm sure that's just my trigger.
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I was thinking about the Tough Love that is too tough for tears, the Tough Love that doesn't show emotions (it can't even identify emotions - in fact, when emotions are being felt, the mind zones out from the body).
that is called Narcissism not "love" of any kind, tough or otherwise. It consists of shutting you up and not letting you feel nor express those feelings, and it is just plain wrong.
Penelope, so nice of you to acknowledge my existence after sooooooooo long. As usual I see you are thoughtfully projecting onto me or is it blameshifting, because I said I felt color-changes are petty in my viewpoint, and I will stand on that. There does come a time when we decide to stop going with the familiar in our life, and to get past things and move ahead. I know in therapy that is what you are doing and I commend you and don't hold anything against you for your comments toward me. I am a strong person who basically loves people in general, to the extent that I even talk to the 2 N's in my life now. You are allowed to own your stuff as I own mine.
Blessya
~Laura- ReallyME
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Good Mornin, Pb
For what it's worth.... I don't think you're being picked on here. Also, I have a sensitivity to red print/ type at times, too... especially when I'm tired to begin with. When I used to do chat, there were a few of us who would ask folks with red font to please change to a more neutral color. Usually they were happy to oblige. Even the white background on my screen can get to be a bit too bright, if I'm havin a migraine-prone day and I rarely go outside without my shades 8) Sometimes I wonder if I didn't get some sort of snow-blindness as a kid, cuz it's always been this way and I can recall going outside after a big snowfall, with the sun reflecting off all that white stuff and I could hardly open my eyes. My son has kinda a novel reaction to the sun reflecting off of white pavement, like in a store parking lot.... he begins to sneeze :D Yeah, we have fun ~ lol.
Kelly, I think what you said about letting everyone express his/her own views here was nicely put. Hopefully we can disagree without being disagreeable here and if there are folks who ultimately can't seem to get along, they can just stay out of each other's immediate space/face and allow peace to reign. There are always going to be conflicting personalities, but that doesn't have to develop into a huge flare-up if the parties involved will just agree to stop pushing buttons.
Hops, I disagree re: homosexuality. I don't think it's either a God-given gift or natural. One thing that especially concerns me about that view is this: When a society accepts that a person "can't help" being gay and has every right to act out that lifestyle, how far is that society from accepting that a pedophile "can't help" his desire for children and has every right to act on that desire? Evidence: the "man boy love association", including its North American chapter. That concerns me alot.
Oh, Pb... I'm with you on being fascinated by the emotional world of men! And ~ lol... yup, they do have their own language, indeed. I've always been inclined to hang around with the men in a group rather than the women, simply because I found less gossip and backstabbing behavior among them. Of course, they have their own unique ways... but I always seemed to relate better. Maybe I'm wrong, but I've just never seen men "gang up" on someone they don't like and set about to manipulate that person's undoing. Females, on the other hand, have often seemed to me to be much more obsessive re: issues of envy, jealousy, just typical sort of "catty" behaviors.
You said, "sometimes someone will finally admit "I'm confused" and the rest of the men will give a collective sigh of relief - like, Oh good, she said it first, so now I don't have to admit I feel that (maybe they don't know)"
I think you're right! Maybe they really don't know. Maybe that outward show of confidence has developed into such a thick layer, such a strong defense mechanism, that they really do lose touch with the underlying feelings. I dunno. I do think that's a big reason why men are so into "fixing" problems, rather than listening to all of the emotions attached to the problem that a woman might just want them to hear. All that can just seem to painful... kinda like that bold red typeset is to some of us.
You know, I had 3 girls before having my son... he's 10 now & I was pretty much a single parent for the first 8 years of his life. It's funny... my girls are, in many ways, much "tougher" than him... like when they'd get a cut or scrape. He's a very sweet and sensitive kid... plenty rough and tumble like any boy, but I've sometimes felt the need to help him "toughen up" a bit. It's not easy. Sometimes I just have to tell him, "Kiddo... yer gonna have to 'cowboy up' about this"... then I wink... and he knows what I mean. Never saw a sweeter smile than this boy's... he's a treasure.
Whew, time for coffee!!
Wishing everyone a great day,
Hope
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HOPE
Hops, I disagree re: homosexuality. I don't think it's either a God-given gift or natural. One thing that especially concerns me about that view is this: When a society accepts that a person "can't help" being gay and has every right to act out that lifestyle, how far is that society from accepting that a pedophile "can't help" his desire for children and has every right to act on that desire? Evidence: the "man boy love association", including its North American chapter. That concerns me alot.
AMEN!
I agree with what you said in comparing men and women...I thought I was the only one who prefers male companionship over "catty" women.
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hi kelly,
sorry I got distracted from the main topic - I did not want to do that. I wish people would PM me if they need to know something in the future. Some of us like to stick on topic and minimize the distractions from the topic. :shock:
Can I ask why you're back? Is there something in particular you need to discuss or are feeling?
Now I find myself "hating" my mom. Yes, I am angry. That generational curse runs deep.
I hear ya kelly. There is a yahoo group for those of us who've divorced our parents if you'd like to join send me a PM or search on the threads here. It's a great group - in a lot of ways.
But sometimes I just want to tell the world about my hate. The fact that I have been slighted. The fact that she is so bad. It is my driving force to take down my mom. I don't want to live like that but I cannot tolerate the woman!!!!!
I know what you mean. I did get a few digs in with my Mom before I stopped talking to her. I emailed all her and my Dad's friends and said "I don't know why they do this?" At the time, I was expressing genuine (I think) desire to fix the situation. But I think I also - a part of me - wanted to tell their friends, who think they're wonderful, a little of how they treat their kids.
hugs kelly,
pb
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hope - thanks for understanding the red bold thingee, you seem like a caring, sensitive soul - your family is lucky to have you! That is too funny about your son!
Kelly, I think what you said about letting everyone express his/her own views here was nicely put. Hopefully we can disagree without being disagreeable here
I've noticed there are a few people who can't. I ignore them.
and if there are folks who ultimately can't seem to get along, they can just stay out of each other's immediate space/face and allow peace to reign.
Like I said, there's a few individuals who can't stay out of another's space, it's like a compulsion or something. Even when it's spelled out to them, they still insist on getting their digs in. When that happens a few times, I feel disregarded and I don't engage the other person in discussion again (not on purpose anyway - I'm sure I slip and do it subconsciously).
There are always going to be conflicting personalities, but that doesn't have to develop into a huge flare-up if the parties involved will just agree to stop pushing buttons.
Typically there's an agreement on one side, but often not the other. Just what I've observed, anyway.
I used to avoid women for the reasons you've mentioned too hope, but then I saw a richness in the communications with women that I'd missed before. And now I'm equally intrigued with women's styles for different reasons...
I think you're right! Maybe they really don't know. Maybe that outward show of confidence has developed into such a thick layer, such a strong defense mechanism, that they really do lose touch with the underlying feelings. I dunno. I do think that's a big reason why men are so into "fixing" problems, rather than listening to all of the emotions attached to the problem that a woman might just want them to hear. All that can just seem to painful... kinda like that bold red typeset is to some of us.
I constantly have to remind my b/f not to "fix" me. :) He really has good intentions though, so I can't get angry with him when he forgets. He's very cute, he came home from work the other day and said "you know that empathy thing you were telling me about? well I tried it on [a coworker] and it really works!" :) I guess he was listening :shock: and here I always thought cause he was perusing fuel injector catalogs in bed, that he couldn't multi task.
Your son sounds like a true treasure. I bet he's going to be very in touch with women when he gets older, you'll have to keep an eye on him, he's going to be a lady killer! (tease) Personally, I think a guy that can express feelings is very sexy and a rare treat.
Wishing everyone a great day
you too hope.
pb
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Hi Hope:
My brother used to sneeze at the sun.
My dog sneezes when I'm giving her affection. I read somewhere it's dog talk for "Whoo, I'm so happy!"
Hope the articles below may help your understanding. Many people conflate homosexuality with pedophelia, and that's inaccurate (and feeds homophobia). There are some homosexual pedophiles, but just as there are many fewer homosexuals than heterosexuals in the general population, the same outcome is shown in general statistics about pedophiles--the vast majority are heterosexual. The Catholic church crisis has confused many people, but the reason is simply that many gay men are attracted to seminary life, and at the same time, many pedophiles may select the priesthood to give them access to children in private settings. Although not necessarily in the Catholic church, vastly more girls in general are molested by pedophiles than boys. Many girls have also been molested by priests, but likely more boys, because of the environment of the priesthood. But that is a specific climate. (Another example: my grandfather, a conservative evangelist, sexually abused his daughters.) Despite the theatrics of some outlandish homosexuals, which the media is attracted to because they are sensational, homosexuals of either gender do not "recruit" children into sexual activity any more than heterosexuals do.
I know these as facts, not opinion, but I also know that some people cannot accept homosexuality as a biological reality without betraying their system of belief. I respect their right to believe as they feel is right, and usually find there is little benefit in trying to shift it. But for anyone who may be open to considering homosexuality from a different angle, here's some info.
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The gender identity of pedophiles: what does the outcome data tell us?.Tardif M, Van Gijseghem H.; Department of Sexology, Universite de Quebec a Montreal, Quebec H3C 3P8, Canada.
The aim of this study was to determine whether pedophiles have a different gender identity profile compared with non-sexual offenders. Participants were 87 male adult subjects, divided into three groups: (a) 27 pedophiles who abused male victims, (b) 30 pedophiles who abused female victims, and (c) 30 non-sexual offenders. The gender identity factor was measured with the Mf scale of the MMPI and the Bem Sex Role Inventory (BSRI). Results indicated no significant inter-group differences in terms of gender identity. However, the order of the three groups regarding scores on the Bem-Masculinity and the Mf scale was as predicted. Conceptual and empirical elements related to gender identity are addressed in order to shed light on potential disturbances in the gender identity of pedophiles. PMID: 15914405 [PubMed]
Psychological profile of pedophiles and child molesters.Murray JB.
Department of Psychology, St. John's University, Jamaica, NY 11439, USA.
Pedophiles and child molesters share some characteristics. Most are male, and they can be heterosexual, homosexual, or bisexual. Some prefer adult sex partners but choose children because they are available and vulnerable. The sexual abuse perpetrated may be a 1-time incident and may consist only of fondling. Penetration is unlikely with young children. Perpetrators' ages range from teens to midlife. Most victims are girls, and the perpetrator usually is a relative, friend, or neighbor. The home of the victim is often the setting for the incident. When boys are victims, sexual abuse may take place outside the home, and perpetrators may be strangers. Perpetrators of sexual abuse of children often claim that they themselves were victims of childhood sexual abuse. PMID: 10766112
Adult sexual orientation and attraction to underage persons.Groth AN, Birnbaum HJ.
A random sample of 175 males convicted of sexual assault against children was screened with reference to their adult sexual orientation and the sex of their victims. The sample divided fairly evenly into two groups based on whether they were sexually fixated exclusively on children or had regressed from peer relationships. Female children were victimized nearly twice as often as male children. All regressed offenders, whether their victims were male or female children, were heterosexual in their adult orientation. There were no examples of regression to child victims among peer-oriented, homosexual males. The possibility emerges that homosexuality and homosexual pedophilia may be mutually exclusive and that the adult heterosexual male constitutes a greater risk to the underage child than does the adult homosexual male.
PMID: 666571
Hops
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PS, Hope: I could not agree with you more about the Man-Boy hideousness. I admire your restraint in saying it concerns you...it drives me absolutely purple.
I'm also quite Draconian in my feelings about prison for pedophiles. Some of my friends disagree with me, but I personally would like for predators who harm children to be literally locked up for life...no parole. I'm sorry, I know it's cruel, but it seems to me that in this culture we don't care terribly much about children. And science has also proven that whatever disorder triggers that sexual "preference", is incredibly resistant to treatment and very rarely cured. It's just not worth the risk, imo.
I am really the same about extremely violent offenders. I do not GET why often a marijuana dealer is still locked up when a rapist goes on parole. The whole penal system is full of so many inconsistencies.
(I am feeling very "charged" today...putting my opinions out in a much more direct fashion than is my usual style. Hope you know there's nothing personal in it, Hope...)
It's good to talk with you.
Hops
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Hi Pb,
Thanks for your kind words.... I'm the one who's blessed to have my son and daughters; they're a great bunch. When my son came along, I was nearly 36 and truly had no desire for a 4th child. I will always thank God for that most wonderful surprise.
I think it's really neat that your b/f is expanding his horizons in the empathy department :) It's especially neat that he's willing to hear these things from you ... to really hear them and then follow through with putting them into practice! A wonderful thing it is when you have the "ear" of your loved one!
Warm day here, but just about ready to settle in for some cool, quiet time ~ yay! I hope your day is goin smoothly 8) and I'm sorry about the (temporary) diversion of your thread in my response that's to follow (and the earlier one), but I don't want to carry this on to a new thread.
Hops, I would never initiate a discussion on the topic of homosexuality, but I didn't want to just ignore your earlier reference to it. Just so you know, it's not a subject on which I enter into casual debate. No problem, btw, re: being "charged" today :)
I understand and can relate... just not at the moment ~ lol.
Anyhow, I never meant to suggest that I believe homosexuality and pedophilia are somehow linked, except from the standpoint of my belief that both are unnatural sexual behaviors. I understand that there is not necessarily an increased percentage of pedophilia practiced among gay men, etc. What I was trying to express is basically what Jac has just stated more clearly than I.
Once the right to express one's sexual preference becomes elevated above the effects of that expression upon other individuals and the culture in general, I don't think that other limits upon that expression will hold for long. My concern is that normalization of pedophilia, bestiality, and whatever else a depraved mind can think up can't be far behind. There really is nothing new under the sun.
As far as belief systems go, you're right... to accept homosexuality would be a betrayal of my beliefs, which are based upon the teachings of the Bible, which absolutely forbids homosexuality, just as it forbids heterosexual fornication and adultery. But you see, to me it's not a matter of arguing whether or not homosexuality is biological. My position is.. we all have desires which may run counter to God's will for mankind. For instance, a man may declare that his sexual preference drives him to copulate with numerous females and therefore this is his God-given right. Well, I guess he can pursue that if he can find enough women willing to indulge. But does that mean he has no choice in the matter? He has this preference and so the preference rules him? Is he absolutely driven to exercise that right? Beasts have no choice; men do and women do. That man could choose to submit his own desires to those of his Creator. Truly, I see no difference between improper heterosexual activity and homosexual activity... it really is all a choice, imo.
Hope
P.S. on edit... oops, meant to add.... it's good to talk with you, too, Hops. I need a nap!!
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Hi Jac,
And thanks, I wasn't clear. Shouldn't have used "preference"--confuses the thought. When I put it in quotes...I meant to be ironic, to show that this word can't be used seriously in the context of what a pedophile is. (Nor, to my mind, is it all that accurate for homosexuality.) But I realize irony doesn't always translate well onscreen.
I believe the scientific evidence is that homosexuality is a sexual orientation, a natural variant of human sexuality, biologically determined. I think within it are variations just as there are variations in the degree of sexual activity or drive in heterosexuals, from the asexual to the hypersexual. And, there are bisexuality and other complicated gradations of sexual identity. I don't think it's all that well understood yet, it hasn't been studied as long as much other human behavior. There may also be some environmental factors that make its expression more likely. Some people suppress it for a long time, even through heterosexual marriage. Heartbreaking for everyone, especially the family. It must be so crazymaking for the individual too.
I also think the "culture" of homosexuality has huge variations. Some gay couples remind me of Ozzie and Harriet more than most heterosexuals, and I've met some who make Castro Street look dull. Most live unremarkably in between, I think. So...I don't know how much the extreme edge of gay culture has anything to do with biology. Probably a complex mix of a whole bunch of things. Some of its excesses may have come out of historical oppression. Some's sure unhealthy. Just as some heterosexual behavior is.
I think that pedophilia is a horrendous disorder...ahh, THING. But I'll look it up, see if I can find more precise wording. (I yield to Wikipedia, which knows more than I do...also saw it referred to as a "sexual pathology"):
The term paedophilia erotica was coined in 1886 by the Vienna psychiatrist Richard von Krafft-Ebing in his writing Psychopathia Sexualis.[3] He gave the following characteristics:
the sexual interest is toward children, either prepubescent or at the beginning of puberty
the sexual interest is the primary one, that is, exclusively or mainly toward children
the sexual interest remains over time
Strictly speaking, this definition would include many adolescents and prepubescents, for whom such an interest might be normal; thus, some experts add the criterion that the interest be toward children at least five years younger than the subject. However, according to some experts, a diagnosis of pedophilia can also be appropriate for a post-pubescent adolescent.[4]
Use of the term pedophile to describe all child sexual offenders is seen as problematic by some people[5][6][7], especially when viewed from a medical standpoint, as the majority of sex crimes against children are perpetrated by situational offenders rather than people sexually preferring prepubertal children.[8][9][10] Nevertheless, some researchers, such as Howard E. Barbaree [11], have endorsed the use of actions as a sole criterion for the diagnosis of pedophilia as a means of taxonomic simplification, rebuking the American Psychiatric Association's standards as "unsatisfactory".
Some individuals[12][13], such as Dr. Fred S. Berlin[14][15], assert sexual attraction to children to be a sexual orientation in itself. Dan Markussen argues that "sexual orientation is defined as a lifelong attraction, which pedophilia obviously is."[16] This is at odds with the current popular acceptance of the term sexual orientation as meaning attraction to the opposite sex, the same sex, or both.
Hope that helps, but my brain's Googled out.
Thanks, Jac.
Hops
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Hi Hope,
Thanks for your thoughts. I believe you.
...never meant to suggest that I believe homosexuality and pedophilia are somehow linked, except from the standpoint of my belief that both are unnatural sexual behaviors.
I understand. We share the belief that they're not linked at all, but don't agree as to whether homosexuality is unnatural. I understand Christian teaching about homosexuality (was raised with it), although there is some debate about translation of "lie" here and there--I've read that some Biblical scholars believe it refers to rape. But that doesn't matter to me because I don't take the Bible literally as revealed Word of God. I don't need to convert anybody, though, and respect your trust in the holy book as guidance for your life. You are clearly a kind person.
It is nice to disagree so agreeably though, and thanks for describing it that way (that was on another thread, but I thought it was a very graceful thing to say). I sometimes feel distressed when I hear people refer to homosexuality, pedophilia and bestiality even in proximity...because that tends to reinforce some cruel forces in our world. But I do understand why people do it. (I know it is very painful to gay people to be viewed and talked about as "unnatural", but you can't legislate inclusion or compassion. I relate to that subject much as I do to racism...through the filter of my experiences as a female.)
All these complicated subjects are tough to talk about, so I am grateful when a discussion takes place so civilly. I'm glad you're here, Hope. You certainly have plunged in and you have a lot to add. Thanks!
Happy napping,
Hops
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Dunno what the heck is going on with me this week, and apologies if I've way hijacked this thread, but just occurred to me I've been flipping out about war, racism, child abuse, sexism...and, oh right, global warming. All in the space of a couple days.
I have felt like: "I am MOI, Hear Me Opine!" (One could say that's about claiming my voice, but I think that's putting too shiny a gloss on it. :oops:)
It's actually felt pretty odd to be sooooooo assertive of my various stances, so I've have just been asking myself, what's up with that? (Not the opinions, they're all truly mine and I care much about them...I'm more pondering the even-more-than-usual outspokenness.) Anyway, I think I figured it out.
I think it's leftover adrenalin from addressing 200+ people Sunday. I think it left me flushed with: happiness, emotion, and a bit of swelled ego. I spake! They liked me, they really liked me! (Remember Sally Field at the Academy Awards? I'm sure it was sincere but she paid a huge career price for being so transparently pleased.)
Meaning, I'm pondering: why should I refrain from voicing my depth of opinion on practically every justice subject there is? My answer for now is: I don't have to refrain, but I could consider it now and then.
I also think I'm avoiding some anxiety by engaging myself in such intense opining/writing. And I had 2 candy bars and 2 bagels today, and since I know I'm an emotional eater, and I've been cramming the carbs...something's up inside. Not entirely sure what, but something about recognition and wanting out of my box, and inner tension over waiting on a possible job interview, etc., etc.
Thanks for listening to me so patiently, everybody. I'll be typing some more when I get home.
love,
Hops
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Hi Hope,
I wanted to add how my reasoning worked as I got to the place where I hold the beliefs I hold, in case it would be interesting to you (not to try to sway you from yours). I had been taught the point of view that even if a person has homosexual desires they should not act on them, ever, in order to be good (saved, or whatever a person wants to call it.) I asked my young self, but what if a person can only fall in love with a person of the same gender? (I had listened to enough gay people to understand that was the experience of most of them.) So then, I asked myself, does that mean gay people have to live as celibates, like priests, to be good? What if they don't want to be priests? What if they're not even Catholic? What if they want to love someone and live with them and touch them to express their love? Then I asked myself, if God made the beauty of sexual intimacy as one very powerful way to experience the divine, then why would about 10% of human beings be forbidden from experiencing it?
Then I realized I felt that would be punitive. Even cruel. Once I actually felt that, there was no turning back. My own certainty that if there is God, for me, God is love and only love. Only compassion. Only kindness. That's just it. That's one reason I moved on beyond believing in the Bible. (I love the book. It's rich and deep and fascinating and inspiring in many parts. I also love Jesus Christ. Personal savior, no. Glowing presence in my heart since childhood, without further definition, yes.)
I had since decided that if God is love and ONLY love, then I believe in God. (Don't talk about it much because most people assume that means I'd be a literal believer in the Bible as the only revealed word, which I don't. And since so many people use the word God to represent so many things, some I find cruel, I usually avoid it.) Anyway...I finally found a faith that is based partly in the belief in universal salvation. In other words, no hell. That was discarded by my denomination some years back when they concluded that a loving god would never cast anyone, at all, into eternal damnation.
That fit everything I felt throughout my heart, mind and body about who I am and what I can believe in. So...that led to my beliefs about many things.
Hope that helps you understand who I am. Thanks for reading it.
with love,
Hops
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Historically, many groups have been thought to be undeserving of normal human status due to their differences. Left-handers were once thought to be evil. Science and social movements finally removed that stigma, and relatively recently. Is it possible that there are still some areas on which mainstream society, including religion, will change their thinking on the acceptability of certain groups and/or practices? And if so, how can we be sure what those things will be?
Will people who think gays are an aberration today be seen as the witch hunters of the 21st century? While I am a religious person, I do not think I am infallible, therefore I might be wrong about something and need to have a little humility about whom I condemn.
Plucky
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Hi Hops,
Thank you for taking an interest in explaining your reasoning on this issue and your belief system in general. I do appreciate it and I do understand. I also know that there are people who think that to adhere to God's law is automatically to be an antagonistic and condemning individual. It's be easy to draw that conclusion, considering all of the condemning and antagonistic folks who claim to be Christians. Of course there are similar folks in every camp... people condemning others for condemning... and around and around it goes.
I believe in a loving God, too. I believe that God is good and that He is love, and also that His commandments as they're given in the Bible are good and right. (Please insert an "I believe" before each of the following statements... ) He gave those commandments for the protection of His children, not to frustrate us. We don't become "good" or "saved" by keeping them. (Now that would be unfair, because no one can keep them perfectly.) So it's not about being good, it's about being made a new creature in Christ, who did keep them all. So when it comes to issues of humanity... sexuality or any natural proclivity... I don't expect a person to turn his life around and become someone he's not for the sake of keeping some law that seems to deny him any chance of happiness he might have in this world. What I believe is that it's God who turns a person's life around, by the Holy Spirit, beginning with the heart, and making all things new again through Christ. If God had left us here with a set of arbitrary rules and regulations and said, "Here, you go figure it out and you'd better be good while you're at it", I wouldn't worship Him, or serve Him. But a God who'd take on flesh and walk among His children, take their place of punishment for all the wrongs of humanity, and set them free from the bondage of death? He's got my heart. And that's all He ever wanted in the first place.
Thanks to you, too, for listening, Hops.
Hope
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(((((((((Hope))))))))))
He's got my heart.
You're welcome.
Hops
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(((((((((Hops)))))))))
Feels good!
Love, Hope