Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: reallyME on August 03, 2006, 07:08:14 PM
-
Someone I spoke to today shared this with me. Anyone have thoughts or things to add about it?
see it's when you find people like that
whose body says one thing
or their words don't agree
you call them Liars
or you can discern they are not truthful
thing is.. they THINK they are truthful
but they are not truthful because they are DOUBLE MINDED
keep that in mind
that they are trying to be truthful
but that they have not fully convinced themselves
and now want to convince YOU
-
I think my mom thinks that if she speaks her rationalizations out loud - they become the truth..............just verbalize them and they become the truth as she knows it.
Ex: she had a facelift and told everyone at work she was going on vacation. Then when someone called her on her cellphone she said she was round Branson way.....she was still in town. When I told her the people didn't appreciate the fact that she had lied to them........................she said she hadn't lied and what business was it of theirs anyway..................yes, she had lied........................but she hadn't lied because it wasn't their concern.
-
I have 1 daughter who is a chronic liar and knows it, and one who is one and denies it, makes excuses, projects and finally makes a joke when she's caught.
-
:)
I googled the psychology of lying...guess what, we all do it (if you're depressed you're less likely to lie however)! (I do not take credit for this research)
from Psychology Today: The truth about lying
By:Allison Kornet
...onthe other hand, the people least likely to lie are those who score high on psychological scales of responsibility and those with meaningful same-sex friendships. In his book Lies! Lies!! Lies!!! The Psychology of Deceit (American Psychiatric Press, Inc.), psychiatrist Charles Ford, M.D., adds depressed people to that list. He suggests that individuals in the throes of depression seldom deceive others--or are deceived themselves--because they seem to perceive and describe reality with greater accuracy than others. Several studies show that depressed people delude themselves far less than their nondepressed peers about the amount of control they have over situations, and also about the effect they have on other people. Researchers such as UCLA psychologist Shelley Taylor, Ph.D., have even cited such findings as evidence that a certain amount of self-delusion--basically, lying to yourself--is essential to good mental health...
-
"Researchers such as UCLA psychologist Shelley Taylor, Ph.D., have even cited such findings as evidence that a certain amount of self-delusion--basically, lying to yourself--is essential to good mental health..."
nothin' healthy about lying to yourself.
I think I might have recommended this book once before but I can't remember. Written by Julie K. Norem, called The Positive Power of Negative Thinking. What she's really advocating - Dr. Norem, that is - is simple realism. See what is, as it is, and make your decisions accordingly.
I'm more of a depressive type myself, and I can guarantee you that much of that depression comes from feeling, so often, as though I'm the only person in my family, at work, or at church, who's seeing things accurately. Who sees below the surface of things. Who is even willing to believe there's more than surface to most things... and that what's under there is often the most important stuff.
That sounds grandiose, and I wish it were. Problem is, time after time, I prognosticate, am disbelieved, and turn out to be 100% bang-on right. So-and-so's new boyfriend does end up being a drug abuser and winds up in jail. This'un, a too-good-to-be-true new manager who's 'all about ideas' turns out to be all-hat-no-cattle, sets up some totally bogus boondoggle project at work and then vanishes into a job at another company, leaving us to clean up after him... That'un, who's just a little tooooo friendly to the ladies IMO, ends up running off with the deacon's wife.
Unfortunately, this track record of mine doesn't seem to cause anyone to be any more inclined to listen to me the next time around. And no, I don't go waving it around, I don't push it at people, I don't 'toldyaso'. I answer when asked... But you'd think... eventually... one or two people would notice that I generally get it right.
I doubt that this is unique. And who, in this situation, wouldn't be depressed? :roll:
-
hi stormy,
I hear ya and I understand, I really do.
no lie :shock:
I mean...I think I understand. errrr, I don't think I misunderstand...errrr, maybe I don't understand as well as I think. Heck, I don't know nothin bout what I'm saying anymore! drat
:wink:
pb
-
You're an engineer, pb. Don't you have the same thing, sometimes? I don't know if you're a software, civil, aerospace, ee, or chem.e., but don't you sometimes just know something won't work because it hasn't been designed to meet the demands that are going to be placed on it... and nobody listens to you... in fact, they get ticked at you and want you to shut up [major voiceless trigger there for me!!]
and then it breaks down or blows up just exactly the way you knew it would? And damned if they don't listen to you the next time either, despite all the evidence that you know what you're talking about, and the next thing breaks down and blows up just the same way?
I betcha.
:wink:
-
I second that emotion, PB...no clue what it even all means
-
jac, i think we're both what Dr. Norem calls 'defensive pessimists' - she doesn't mean 'defensive' in the usual 'defense mechanism' sense, but in the sense of hoping for the best but preparing for the worst, so that it can be dealt with more effectively, if it happens.
you might really enjoy her book.
it helped me tremendously to see that others have the same kind of perspective I do and encounter similar challenges because of it. nothing is wrong with the way I think, it works quite well, it's just uncommon.
-
Stormy,
I think you're just smarter than the average bear. :wink:
Brigid
-
Stormy,
But you'd think... eventually... one or two people would notice that I generally get it right.
I have noticed.
Per Webster, Illusion = An erroneous perception of reality.
An erroneous concept or belief.
The condition of being deceived by a false perception or belief.
Something, such as a fantastic plan or desire, that causes an erroneous belief or perception
To be disillusioned is to be freed of illusions. Freed by... the truth :) To put it another way, it's to be disenchanted... the spell broken, the bewitchment by unreality ended. For some time now, I've taken issue with the term "disillusionment" as it's been shaded in such a negative light, as though it's a sad and woeful thing to have illusions shattered. I think rather that it's a wonderful thing indeed, to no longer require a web of intricate false-perceptions in order to deal with life. Of course, I also think this is only a positive thing when one knows the One who alone can break the spell.
I remember hearing a ministry message years ago re: witchcraft. This practice of witchcraft is not limited to those who call themselves witches or warlocks. The craft is practiced by all who seek to control reality by manipulation of the truth. At its root, what's condemned in the Bible is any attempt on the part of man to take lordship over another (or even himself?) by playing fast and loose with reality, while excluding his Maker in the process. From my perspective, the "craft" is one of our generation's favorite tools, and it has nothing to do with magic. It's all about deception, delusion, and blindness.
I'm very glad you're disillusioned, Stormy.
Love,
Hope
-
:oops: umm, thanks jac, and brigid, and hope! :oops:
I guess, on the subject of liars which is where RM started this thread, what I was saying was really that - knowing a liar is only one part of it.
Being in a position to do something about it when you recognize a liar is the bigger part. Whatever it may be. Because not all lies are fully conscious and there's such a range, from kind-hearted white lies to absolutely evil-intended blatant dishonesty. So what you do depends on what it is...
Sometimes the best thing to do is nothing at all... just disengage. Sometimes you need to actively pack up your stuff and leave the room. But sometimes it's necessary to set limits. When that's the case, it's very frustrating to be the only one aware and trying. I guess that's the point I was making. It's nice to know I'm not alone either in my perception there, in my life experiences at work and so on, or in the frustration I've experienced because of it.
Many thanks again for the kindness. It helps tremendously. :oops:
-
Storm...
"it helped me tremendously to see that others have the same kind of perspective I do and encounter similar challenges because of it. nothing is wrong with the way I think, it works quite well, it's just uncommon."
Count one more who has similar perspectives as you!
-
Hope,
As I've mentioned before, I am relatively new to this board and I just want you to know that the more I read your posts, the more respect I have for your words. You "walk the walk".....thank you.
-
seeker, I thanked you on another thread for remembered kindness, somewhere. it was this kindness, here.
thank you again --
-
Kellie (hope I spelled it right, I should have checked before I posted :oops: )
I believe that my motehr also believes the lies she tells. In her fantasyland, everything is as she wants it to be. Scary...
-
So basically Stormy, what you are saying in the quote below, is that you are very discerning. That is a wonderful gift to have, the gift of discernment. As you've pointed out, though, it can be a heavy cross to bear.
Adrift
"Researchers such as UCLA psychologist Shelley Taylor, Ph.D., have even cited such findings as evidence that a certain amount of self-delusion--basically, lying to yourself--is essential to good mental health..."
nothin' healthy about lying to yourself.
I think I might have recommended this book once before but I can't remember. Written by Julie K. Norem, called The Positive Power of Negative Thinking. What she's really advocating - Dr. Norem, that is - is simple realism. See what is, as it is, and make your decisions accordingly.
I'm more of a depressive type myself, and I can guarantee you that much of that depression comes from feeling, so often, as though I'm the only person in my family, at work, or at church, who's seeing things accurately. Who sees below the surface of things. Who is even willing to believe there's more than surface to most things... and that what's under there is often the most important stuff.
That sounds grandiose, and I wish it were. Problem is, time after time, I prognosticate, am disbelieved, and turn out to be 100% bang-on right. So-and-so's new boyfriend does end up being a drug abuser and winds up in jail. This'un, a too-good-to-be-true new manager who's 'all about ideas' turns out to be all-hat-no-cattle, sets up some totally bogus boondoggle project at work and then vanishes into a job at another company, leaving us to clean up after him... That'un, who's just a little tooooo friendly to the ladies IMO, ends up running off with the deacon's wife.
Unfortunately, this track record of mine doesn't seem to cause anyone to be any more inclined to listen to me the next time around. And no, I don't go waving it around, I don't push it at people, I don't 'toldyaso'. I answer when asked... But you'd think... eventually... one or two people would notice that I generally get it right.
I doubt that this is unique. And who, in this situation, wouldn't be depressed? :roll:
-
Just to add something else and to get back to the OP, I am a wonderfully good liar. Not that I'm proud of it, and not that I believe lying is acceptable and these days I very seldom tell a lie. However, growing up under the pressures in my home, I learned to lie to escape punishment/abuse of both the emotional and physical manner. When you grow up in a mixed up home, especially a home that is bent towards violence, lying convincingly is a survival skill. When forgetting to feed the dog would get me a 30 minute red faced, screaming-meemee performance from my mother, during which she would recount every wrong thing I'd ever done, I learned to lie and say "yes ma'am, I fed the dog" and then I would sneak a scoop of dog food to my room and feed him out my bedroom window (lucky for the dog my window overlooked his fenced in area). Would you believe that 30 years later I still have dreams in which I dream that I've forgotten to feed the dog for a really long time and I walk to the fenced in yard (in trepidation) to check on him, fearing that I will find him dead or nearly dead, however in my dreams he is remarkably healthy and not terribly hungry. IOW, in my dream he's o.k. In real life, he didn't go hungry either, just got fed out the window on occassion 8)
My mom made me take piano lessons for 10 years ---do you know how long 10 years of weekly piano lessons is????????????? I had no talent or innate skill for the piano whatsoever, in fact my fine motor skills have always stunk, but my mother believed--- BELIEVED---- that if I just wanted to, I could be a first rate pianist. And she dreamed of me playing in church one day---all for her glory of course. I hated that piano, I hated practicing, my poor teacher knew my mom was fanatical about my taking lessons so she endured me (and hey, it was money in her pocket). Did I lie about practicing the piano?? Heck yeah, for about 5 solid years. My mom expected me to practice 45 minutes a day. But usually no one was home to know the difference, so I lied and never felt bad one bit for it.
One good thing, though, is that I have learned to not put my kids in the position to where they feel they have to lie to me or else face the firing squad for telling the truth.
Adrift
-
Adrift,
---do you know how long 10 years of weekly piano lessons is?????????????
Yup :?
8) Hope
-
Adrift
Oh yes!!!! Not ten years of piano lessons, only five. Five very long years!!!!! Like you, I had no talent, desire, or ability but my mother wanted to be able to show off her daughter, the pianist. Yes I lied about practicing also.
I lied to my mother often. I did it to escape the abuse that would follow telling the truth and that abuse would include recounting everything I had ever done wrong in my entire life.