Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Brigid on August 05, 2006, 10:25:43 AM
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I feel as though this place (VESMB) has lost its sense of community and has become one of choosing sides. Or, if you don't want to be on a side or are not chosen by the leader of that side to be a member, you fade away because you no longer feel as though you have anything to contribute, or your sense of safety in offering a comment has disappeared.
I don't know if I am the only one who has noticed, but how many new people have joined the board recently? How many new stories have come forth? Virtually none that I have seen, or the poster posts once and is never heard from again. Why is that? Are we so wrapped up in our own issues and declaring our right to say whatever we want, however we want that we can't take time to welcome and offer support to someone new who has come here for help?
New stories bring about new insights, imo. New topics bring about new opportunities for healing and growth. I feel like so much of what is being talked about is the same thing, from the same people with perhaps just a different spin.
Old people are leaving or have left already, new people aren't joining. What does that tell us about our community? Communities won't grow and prosper unless visitors feel safe and welcome to become members of the community. They will "buy a home" somewhere else where they can find some friendly neighbors and maybe someone will even show up with a plate of cookies.
Brigid
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Brigid
we all are the community, including you!
How about calling your thread ‘welcome to the community!’ you might get newbies posting in reply??
Possible? Or I’m going to start posting daft topics like “so what’s your attachment style?” or “do the 4 agreements make sense to you” or “how long were you in denial’ or ‘anyone want to see my holiday photos’ or ‘ recipes for self-awareness’ or ‘loving your body when you’re an INTJ’ or……acupuncture for back pain (serious) or …save me quick!
:?
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Hi Brigid,
Thank you for presenting the opportunity to address your concerns about this community. I have concerns, as well.
I think that in any social setting there are bound to be cliques. I've never been part of one, nor do I intend to be a part of one here. I do think that there are cliques on this board, but that they will be exposed and seen for what they are in due time, if people do not give in to any attempts to pressure them into silence. There are some people here that I neither like nor trust. I don't see anything unusual about that... some people will simply not get along. I will not go about deliberately trying to offend them or anyone else. I will do my level best to stay out of their path.
What exactly is the source of the pressure you're feeling, Brigid? Are you feeling pressure because no one is jumping through hoops in an attempt to woo back the few people who said they were taking a brief leave of absence? Is it because people who have chosen to continue posting are still trying to sort through the residue of recent experiences (which are, in fact, usually based on old experiences, which alot of us share in common)? I don't know what you see as the most desireable solution to all of this. Would everything be fine if those of us who were charged with responsibility for the last blow up would just hush? Should we slink away into the gloom and let the conversation return to glib discussions of current events?
This is supposed to be a place of healing and growth, and yet I feel, Brigid, as though you think those of us who are posting are expected to be above and beyond all of this. Well, obviously we're not. Should we be able to simply pull ourselves up by our bootstraps and play nice? I'm trying to play nice! I'm trying to learn how to play even nicer. But I'm not a therapist or expert of any kind and all I can do is try to be honest and not purposefully, intentionally, set out to cause anyone any harm. I'm just trying to learn like everyone else. I can't learn without expressing myself here. I do not, however, post simply for the sake of expressing myself at any cost. I have bitten my tongue and sat on my fingers on many, many occasions. I do not look for opportunities to speak up in my own defense, or for anyone else to speak up in my defense. I will not, however, sit back and tolerate lies being spoken about me. That I will correct to the best of my ability, not to cause anyone else harm. That's where I stand.
I also value the new stories that come to the board, but not at the expense of silencing the old stories. I haven't seen any new people be ignored. Really, I haven't. Maybe we can start a thread welcoming each new name/member we see join, inviting them to introduce themselves when they're prepared to do that. If anyone has any other thoughts on that, I'd be glad to help. But I don't view any of what goes on here as a waste. It's all learning and whether it seems positive or negative to any one individual at a certain moment, all depends on where you are in the spectrum of healing, imo.
Brigid, I have great respect for you and I value your opinions. I hope that you will be able to hear what I'm trying to express here, despite the lack of mooshy squooshiness in the content. I am not feeling real mooshy or squooshy at the moment, only determined to not be silenced. I see your point of view. I hope you see mine.
With love,
Hope
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P.S. to Portia,
I never did read up on the 4 agreements. Looking forward to that info!
Love,
Hope
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CH
it's now on my 'to do on the board' list! I have to go, bye for now.P
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Hi Brigid
It's interesting - I was thinking just yesterday how surprised I was at the folks who have shown up here lately because the discussions have drawn them in.
Wouldja believe? 44 new members joined between June 1 and today, I just looked at the memberlist. Really, 44. They're not talking a lot - but I don't know what the ratio of lurkers to posters normally is. But 44 folks in 66 days ain't bad... I think there is something positive going on, for people to still be signing up like that, there must be.
Maybe the activity here is actually drawing people closer.
Groups develop in stages.
There's forming, when they first come together and have kind of a honeymoon, and then storming [no, I swear that's not why I picked my name, it never even crossed my mind] where they discover places of friction and conflict and the honeymoon ends...
What comes next is crucial, either the group backs away from the storming process because it's too unpleasant, or they push through and come out on the other side --- if a group never weathers its storm, it stalls, and people just kind of hang out and try to recreate the honeymoon phase. That's fine for a cybercafe but might not be so good for a recovery group.
Because only after the storm comes the group integration phase where there is an increase of morale, mutual trust, and self-disclosure, and people bring things out to work on and that goes faster and deeper than it ever did, and the results last and last. [Norming and performing, in the model I'm referring to - Tuckman, 1965.] [Added on edit: it's not all work either, there's plenty room for play, and as a bonus the playing doesn't end in tears as often either, because of the new awareness people have.]
I don't think we've ever gotten through a storm... not this group, earlier ones may have...
but oh dear lord, i hope, i pray, this time we might.
and I'm worried sick that I've just hexed this process by articulating it... please god, not.
and I'm not sure how this process works in cyberspace, where groups aren't static, they flow, folks come in and out at any time... but I swear, I feel it trying to happen here... I swear I do.
and no, I'm really truly not a mental health professional... I'm part of this, I'm trying to keep an even keel on these seas too, holding fast to my sea anchor, and praying like mad.
And I started looking for this information a couple of weeks ago... I didn't remember any of this, although a therapist did mention those four stages to me once, long ago.
((((((((((Brigid))))))))))
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Brigid: New stories bring about new insights, imo. New topics bring about new opportunities for healing and growth. I feel like so much of what is being talked about is the same thing, from the same people with perhaps just a different spin.
hmmm, yep that's me...Miss Same Ole Same Ole...I'm still not hushing up nor leaving, however, unless Dr G tells me to, since it is his board.
I have seen people on here become a lot more nasty than I even come close to, and they are rallied around and supported at others' expense. That is just LIFE, HUMANITY...welcome to the WORLD!
It's a message board, a support system, a place to be FREE to be YOU. I see nothing wrong with it. Nobody need agree with anyone else...typical of how the secular world runs itself anyway. In the CHRISTIAN church I go to, everyone must conform to an extent...here, no. That is my view on it.
As a result of how PB handled things in our last disagreement, I feel more comfortable and close with her than I have ever felt before. For me, it was not a loss to just be who I am, point out what I see, and consider what others saw about me. I'm growing, changing and ENJOYING every minute of it.
~Laura
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Stormy,
I really appreciate reading the perspective you offer re: group dynamics and growth. It all makes absolute sense to me!
I thought that I'd seen many new join-ups to the group here, from day to day, but didn't have any confirmation of that fact. It's very reassuring to know that people are wanting to become members, whether they post at first or not. I hope that they will feel free to post, because I believe that in the sort of open, non-defensive style of communication we can develop here, we each have so much to offer one another. I firmly believe in coming out the other side, in growing through the storms, in facing problems directly and non-evasively, AND in each individual's right to determine when a horse is dead. I'm in this for the duration, whatever comes, and will do my part to not be a hitch in the git-along. Thanks, Stormy. I feel energized!
With love,
Hope
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Hi Hope
This is just what I see - I hope it's what's there [on edit: because if it is what's there it's healthy, even if it's uncomfortable] - it fits with what's happening - but it's just what I see. I'm glad this stuff makes sense to you, too, though.
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As a result of how PB handled things in our last disagreement, I feel more comfortable and close with her than I have ever felt before. For me, it was not a loss to just be who I am, point out what I see, and consider what others saw about me. I'm growing, changing and ENJOYING every minute of it.
Thank you for remembering and seeing the positive things RM. I think that's important. Cause it sort of feels like people are trying to rewrite history. People who were perhaps on the "fringes" of our conflict may have experienced it differently than we did, but it does not change how I felt while we were working through our conflict (calm, and safe) and it does not change how I felt when I realized I needed to make a change (panicked, fearful that I'd screwed up - again), and it does not change how I felt when your words were suddenly neutralized and I realized that they are the SAME WORDS. They are the same words you've been using all along, I suddenly realized their Intent, and I trusted that you are not my N mother, or my enabling sisters and I realized that I had been projecting a lot of my stuff onto you. So then I felt Happy. My heart felt happy and peaceful, mostly because I think you saw this change in me and you did not attack me and say I TOLD YOU SO. You said, it's OK. I forgive you cause I know where you're coming from. Was it "wrong" of me to be happy cause of the way you reacted? Should I have been more happy just about myself? I don't think so. I think this place is a place of healing between people (here I completely agres with hops). It doesn't happen in a vacuum. It doesn't happen alone. It happens only because others are here and are helping me. I can't do it alone. So I'm happy cause we did it together. Thank you.
It is shameful and I often feel ashamed having grown up in a family of Ns, I feel like I'm defective because of it. I worry I won't be "normal." I'm scared that people are going to hang that over my head for the rest of my life if they find out. RM, you are not doing that, and that makes me trust you, immensely. Sometimes in order to gain a person's trust, you have to take the first step. I know that trust builds slowly over time, and I've seen lots of people trusting you more and more over the weeks you've been here RM, and they were truly inspirational to me. Cause I realized that it could be an error in my thinking, what I thought about your style and your comments, and how your words were impacting me. Make sense? And now, I hope you're not too uncomfortable with all this attention RM, cause know what? Everybody here grates someone the wrong way. Everybody here, no matter what their style triggers somebody. That is life. There is no getting around that. If we were all brave enough to see and explore the reasons why, we could be at peace with ourselves - which is really my goal.
The depth psychology I'm working on (HSP workbook) is about exploring my hidden feelings and thoughts, figuring out where they come from with the goal of being more at peace with myself. Just saying to myself: I'd like to be at peace is not enough - it doesn't just happen because I want it. If I really Really REALLY want it, though, I will keep plugging, keep working through the painful stuff, keep looking Within and I know I will find the answers. I'm sure of it, that is one thing I've very optimistic about. Does it mean I'm never going to have conflicts here or other places? no, of course not. But it means I'm one step closer to accepting myself and understanding how it all works, and I think it was a pretty huge victory.
hugs RM, thank you for being you and for being brave all these weeks. You've been very patient and kind with me. Really! :)
pb
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we are all in this together.
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Maybe it's not black and white.
Perhaps some conflicts are productive while others are merely nasty.
Perhaps some people at some times learn and grow through conflict while at others they merely wither.
Perhaps some here have learned all they choose to through conflict and prefer a different way.
As for me personally, life is too short and unpleasant aleady to waste any more of my time in spats over, what in the end, are nearly always inconsequential personality conflicts.
There are more important things to me than cyber squabbles. It's hard to think of anything less important.
If others enjoy or learn through these brawls, God bless them, and may they please do me the courtesy of steering clear of me as I will them.
mud
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This will probably be my last post here, so I might as well say what I feel.
I don't always read this board daily, but it's rare that I go more than two days without at least checking in. And it seems that lately every time I check in, another thread has started about how the board is falling apart, how people don't respect each other's boundaries or experiences, etc., etc.
I do not come here to see dysfunction in action, but to read (and write) about how we are overcoming the consequences of close association with narcissists. The stories were often inspirational, compelling, and very touching to me. When I felt I could offer something, I responded. And I received tremendous kindness and support from many people here, which has touched me deeply over the difficult last few months.
I never became deeply enmeshed in this board, so I never felt that I belonged to a clique. I never really understood what was going on well enough to take sides. I did feel sometimes that everybody in a thread was having a party to which I wasn't invited, but I've felt that way pretty much my whole life. Sometimes I was very glad to be excluded from whatever conflict was unfolding.
From a distance, it has seemed to me that some of the regular posters here just have to do this. My guess is that either they engage everybody this way, or they are trying out new muscles of self-awareness and self-defence, and they haven't yet got to the point where they can let anything pass. I have seen very little conscious malice here, very few comments made with a seeming intent to provoke or hurt. So I have to say that it always puzzles me that people get so very, very upset. But then, I've never thought I was on the receiving end, so I don't really know how it feels.
It seems to me that no matter how many times the air is cleared, no matter how many times we promise to do better and be more considerate, somebody, somehow takes offense and it starts all over again. I don't know why. All I know is that it seems to be unstoppable. And it makes me want to come here less and less, because it just sounds like an endless emotional catfight. It's exhausting, mostly confusing, and it's not at all what I thought this place was about.
So the only way for me to deal with this is to disengage from it. Let those who thrive on this sort of thing play on.
In the meanwhile, thanks to all who have helped me, and I wish everyone here the best.
daylily
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Mud, thank you for posting. Good to hear you.
Daylily, thank you for saying what you wanted to.
I think I've had enough to be honest. Anyone wants to, please PM or email me anytime. There ya go. P
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Penelope:
Was it "wrong" of me to be happy cause of the way you reacted? Should I have been more happy just about myself?
My biggest concern in ever posting on this board, is that nobody is told that their feelings are wrong...feelings just ARE. I don't like people being invalidated nor do I choose to be, which is why I have always stood my ground on things I believed in. I am enjoying all your comments, Penelope and am very glad we have worked things out to a place that we can talk with goodness in our communication and even learn from each other.
For those of you leaving the board, Godspeed to you and may you find fulfillment in whatever you pursue.
I'm staying here, as I have found a place that values me at least in some small way, and I enjoy coming here after a busy day at the restaurant or college, and catchin up on things with everyone.
~Laura
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hi mud,
I don't think that I'm enjoying this conflict... But I recognize that it's where I'm at right now. It's the level of my ability now, I can't be at any other level.
Maybe when I'm older I will get around conflict, steer clear of it, more effectively.
Thanks for your thoughts. I will continue to stay clear of you as you've asked me to in the past. no worries
pb
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RM - Goodness in communication
I like that :)
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Penelope,
Yes, GOODNESS IN COMMUNICATION. May is always be so between us and be established anew with others.
Please know that if I happen to quote a Bible verse or say something quite abruptly, that it is not directed at any one person. It is just belief that I stand by and for.
Blessya'll,
Laura
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I can't keep up with all the posting this week but I would say that a support group is totally different from an unmoderated open-access message board.
In a support group person(s) facilitate so that each person gets a group space and no space becomes unhealthy
( by the definitions and purposes of the particular group ) In a support group someone whose presence wasn't benefitting the whole group over time would likely be asked to leave or counselled separately before they attended again.
I have ( finally) learned to moderate myself- I don't need to be in on everything. We can't connect to everyone personally. And internet useage can become almost an addiction when I'm on the computer all the time for work anyway- it's taken me ages to learn to use it less; it's a real 'comfort habit' for me when life is tough...
As my 'voice' has grown within me I am finding I am becoming quieter and less forceful, accepting that not everyone will like me, it's not personal if there's a basic personality clash- so long as I don't make it so by keep trying to engage on a level that's not going to happen right now.
Is conflict healthy or necessary? On balance, no. I think often we just switch dramas and make a pattern of miscommunications throughout life until we don't really know whose argument it really is, only that we are angry or in pain and someone needs to see that. I didn't break that until I did therapy for a long time with a good psychologist who pointed out over and over that some of my rigid thinking wasn't serving me well, and my expectations of others ( and myself ) were setting me up.
I can have a 'healthy disagreement' with my son, and a few of my close friends, because we know pretty much the boundaries and are prepared to stop and break and think and reframe things if it escalates into anger or frustration.
Saying hurtful things always backfires for me and everyone I know personally.
Yes, we can apologise if we go too far, but once it's out there- the hurt is beyond our control. And as Maya Angelou once said:
I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel.
I left posting on the board at one point but people asked me to come back, or thanked me and wished me well, so I want to return that: especially THANK YOU.
You're all special and beautiful and I wouldn't have got this far without you!
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Write: I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel.
I will not label this statement, but I will say that I disagree with it. I did not and do not MAKE anyone feel any certain way. I'm not attached to people by some sort of invisible thread. That sort of thinking merely fosters codependency imo
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write, et al,
Well, it's good to hear that we all agree that conflict for the sake of the "fun of it" is unhealthy. Conflict happens, though. People have feelings. They want to express what they feel...that's part of not being voiceless. Did anybody mean to create those feelings? Could they even predict how others would react? What if I said I thought people would be relieved if I worked out some of my conflicts here? (I actually did think this, btw)
Kinda strange that people reacted exactly the opposite. Instead of being relieved, it sent some into a panic. I wonder if this has anything to do with the "not invented here, so it can't be good" way of thinking (we say this all the time at work - if you want to get an engineer to accept your idea, you make it their idea, otherwise it's no good). I don't know what it all means... I'm still trying to process it and everybody's reactions, but I think it could be something that simple. Maybe?
Sometimes we are all just doing the best we can - my opinion.
It is interesting how different people have tried to "lead" the thinking throughout the various conflicts that have arisen over the months I've been here. There have been many: I can think of at least 10 major blowups, and lots of minor ones in between... I think that leaders of these conflicts are always brave (jac, hops, hope, Portia, to name a few), and I think they tend to be quick thinkers that can process information quickly and make decisions about it. Others, followers (like me) cannot do this. We react about 3 days after everyone else. I think I'm just now starting to process it, for example. I'll be talking about this one for awhile, I'm sure....... Thanks for all of the feedback - good bad and indifferent. It's helping me and that's important.
pb
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I did not and do not MAKE anyone feel any certain way. I'm not attached to people by some sort of invisible thread. That sort of thinking merely fosters codependency imo
My immediate thoughts are- if codependency is one interpretation of the quote then another is taking responsibility for your actions.
I believe we are all indeed attached by an invisible thread, and what we put out from us affects others more than we realise.
To be a part of a community, that is a special obligation; and a healing community even more so.
Since you cannot do good to all, you are to pay special attention to those who, by the accidents of time, or place, or circumstances, are brought into closer connection with you.
Saint Augustine, 4 th Century
People have feelings. They want to express what they feel...that's part of not being voiceless.
I truly believe we can express our feelings in a way which is neither unpleasant or burdensome for others and it's a good skill to learn.
I know people who are so calm and timid, but they have a strong inner voice and can ask for what they need, and assert themselves, and for a lot of my life I have been loud and forceful and unable to ask for the most basic things.
"Voice' is part of a whole communication- not just speaking but hearing what's coming back to us and is it balanced and trying to find reciprocity and equality and fairness. Mutuality is the heart of communication.
we say this all the time at work - if you want to get an engineer to accept your idea, you make it their idea, otherwise it's no good
there's a lesser concept of engaging someone's interest and enthusisam and cooperation so they 'take ownership' rather than take over!
Ok, time to go, Goodnight, sleep well. My eyes are closing and the poor dog is already giving me a 'what, no walk' expression...
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Well, I'm a long-time lurker and occasional poster here, and I have certainly seen a change in emphasis that results in the board seeming a less supportive and more closed environment to me.
As I don't visit here very frequently, but have been coming here for quite a while, maybe my observations might be useful? They are of course subjective so please feel free to disregard them if you think they're wrong :D
For a start, Dr Grossman seems not to be here any more, unless I've just missed him recently. Originally he was very much part of the scene. Perhaps that gave a kind of parental vibe - at any rate there was a sense of safety that I think may have gone. He was quite capable of stepping in, commenting and even deleting threads if he thought things were getting out of hand. I believe some members found that restrictive, but I thought it was reassuring, and I always thought it underscored what the board was meant for - a safe place to contact others who had been through the same kinds of abuse.
Agreed, this isn't a support group as such. However, most of us come here because we have been damaged by Ns in our lives and we are looking for support, kindness, empathy and undrstanding. Hopefully we are aiming to give that back too. Therefore hostility, anger, rivalry, shouting, sarcasm and so on are going to create an atmosphere that many people here find difficult to deal with. Carrying on feuds on this boards, particularly in a cliquey way, creates exactly the sort of dynamic that I at least grew up with. I come here to heal that hurt, not recreate it.
Evidence is increasing that retraumatising people is bad for their mental health. Therefore I'm not surprised some folk are saying 'I've had enough' and are walking away. I think they are making the healthy choice for themselves. And those who stay to fight another day are of course getting what they want for themselves too. It's just not what the board was meant for, as I understand it.
I would like to hear from Dr Grossman on this subject. Is he still here?
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This will probably be my last post here, so I might as well say what I feel.
I don't always read this board daily, but it's rare that I go more than two days without at least checking in. And it seems that lately every time I check in, another thread has started about how the board is falling apart, how people don't respect each other's boundaries or experiences, etc., etc.
I do not come here to see dysfunction in action, but to read (and write) about how we are overcoming the consequences of close association with narcissists. The stories were often inspirational, compelling, and very touching to me. When I felt I could offer something, I responded. And I received tremendous kindness and support from many people here, which has touched me deeply over the difficult last few months.
I never became deeply enmeshed in this board, so I never felt that I belonged to a clique. I never really understood what was going on well enough to take sides. I did feel sometimes that everybody in a thread was having a party to which I wasn't invited, but I've felt that way pretty much my whole life. Sometimes I was very glad to be excluded from whatever conflict was unfolding.
From a distance, it has seemed to me that some of the regular posters here just have to do this. My guess is that either they engage everybody this way, or they are trying out new muscles of self-awareness and self-defence, and they haven't yet got to the point where they can let anything pass. I have seen very little conscious malice here, very few comments made with a seeming intent to provoke or hurt. So I have to say that it always puzzles me that people get so very, very upset. But then, I've never thought I was on the receiving end, so I don't really know how it feels.
It seems to me that no matter how many times the air is cleared, no matter how many times we promise to do better and be more considerate, somebody, somehow takes offense and it starts all over again. I don't know why. All I know is that it seems to be unstoppable. And it makes me want to come here less and less, because it just sounds like an endless emotional catfight. It's exhausting, mostly confusing, and it's not at all what I thought this place was about.
So the only way for me to deal with this is to disengage from it. Let those who thrive on this sort of thing play on.
In the meanwhile, thanks to all who have helped me, and I wish everyone here the best.
daylily
Hi Daylily,
I just want to say that I was deeply moved by your post and it's sad that you no longer find solace here. To be honest, I don't post here anymore for those reasons also, so I hear you.
Every so often, I check back to see if it has blown over, but it seems to be the norm on the board these days and all in the name of "voicelessness"!
I don't enjoy the tension. I am afraid to open up here anymore. It's not a safe place for me. I know some people prefer to stay and whittle it out but to me there is more strength in bowing out. I see it as an unhealthy place now and have done for a while.
So Daylily, I wish you the best, good luck with everything. Who knows maybe things will change and we'll see you back here again. I will continue to view now and then, but I certainly am not going to participate for now!
All the best,
Selkie
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Penelope:
What if I said I thought people would be relieved if I worked out some of my conflicts here? (I actually did think this, btw)
Kinda strange that people reacted exactly the opposite. Instead of being relieved, it sent some into a panic.
No, Penelope, it turns out a lot of the time, that once the conflict has been worked out, some people either miss the struggle, get upset and jealous of the reparation of the relationship, or get upset because things have changed.
I realize this dynamic seems odd, and I agree iwth you, that the ideal, would be for people to really have REJOICED that RM and PB have come to a place of understanding and Peace, but for the above reasons, I would not hold your breath waiting for it. It is just human nature and human dysfunctional perception, that disallows people to "rejoice with those who rejoice."
That is my take on it.
~Laura
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I would like to hear from Dr Grossman on this subject. Is he still here?
It would be interesting to meet Dr Grossman- maybe he'll give a lecture talk some time! Not that I seem to be able to travel lately but if I were in Massachusets I would make an appointment.
Evidence is increasing that retraumatising people is bad for their mental health
absolutely. There's a myth that reliving things is always cathartic, but without the direction of a good therapist we get 'stuck' in a bad place.
All my life I have had people around me shouting and being unpleasant, to the point I had literally tuned it out, except I got all these stress-related illnesses...I know now that reliving the original trauma is the last thing I need.
I thought what Daylilly writes is very wise too. Especially My guess is that either they engage everybody this way, or they are trying out new muscles of self-awareness and self-defence, and they haven't yet got to the point where they can let anything pass.
I wish she would not leave but I am happy she is in a good peaceful place, and why disturb that after all she's been through this past year?
I see it as an unhealthy place now and have done for a while.
It is an unhealthy place in terms of going around and around in a cycle of arguing/ group hug. Change comes from within ourselves, we can write anything but what we continue to project out is from the depths of ourselves.
the ideal, would be for people to really have REJOICED that RM and PB have come to a place of understanding and Peace,
I don't know exactly what that's about, but I know we can't direct what other people feel or do.
One of my worst faults has been sanctimoniousness. Where I believe I know what other people are thinking or should be. I looked the word up when someone once told me directly to stop being so (!) the definition is affecting or simulating holiness or virtuousness, especially hypocritically.
Over time as I look in the mirror more and more and reflect on myself I am able to see the human faults and love myself anyway, but work on things I need to change. The progress has exactly reflected my spiritual development where now I see G_d in all things, not just my own religion; and in parenting, where I can see exactly when my mistakes and problems are reflected in my child. Even my physical self has changed and is becoming more healthy, even though it's not perfect it feels more like the real me.
What I mean is- it's all part of a whole of really letting go and beginning over and moving the mountain in moveable chunks. But it's only ME I can work on really, even sharing things it is entirely up to the other person whether they listen or what they do with that
( and isn't that what we mean by being 'safe' in a community, that other people can turn against us or hurt us by not understanding or judging? )
It is just human nature and human dysfunctional perception
or other people seeing things differently?
That is my take on it.
exactly. So it's not dysfunctional any more than someone else could call you disfunctional and it be unhelpful or unmotivating.
Language is a powerful thing, and dysfunctional and other 'cover-all' words can really close down communication Laura.
Maybe it's appropriate for some of the personal arguments which seem to have been ongoing to move onto PMs, because they're about relationhips which don't include everyone else, because it is clearly bothering some people greatly the amount of personal conflict and feeling excluded and unwilling to post their own private stuff alongside a back-drop of continual analysis and debate erupting into anger.
Arguing in public isn't a sign of strength, it's acting out.
I also think it would be a good idea to have a 'maximum posts' eg 6 in 24 hours: bit of regulation for when my internetedness becomes obsessive!!!
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Arguing in public isn't a sign of strength, it's acting out.
Write,
I totally agree.
It is MY judgment that is the reason a few of the wiser posters have left.
Movinon
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Hi Nightsong,
I'm here :), and always reading. I'll post my thoughts (not a lecture, though, Write!) in a new thread perhaps on Monday.
Best,
Richard
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Well, after I started this post I left for the day and night and have just now read all the replies. I don't have time now to address all the points and questions, but I do appreciate the insights which have been presented. More than anything, I appreciate the respectfulness with which even those who disagree, have offered their viewpoints. It is a relief to see that we can disagree kindly.
I got the various reactions which I expected to receive, and it was good to see some new folks and lurkers come out of the woodwork to express themselves.
I will make a more detailed response at a later time, but for now I just want to say, that my post was never about wanting to silence anyone. Why would I want to do that? I was voiceless for much of my life and I'm still finding my voice and certainly encourage others to do the same, BUT not at the expense of hurting or silencing others.
There is a delicate balance. Everything that is posted here makes an impression on someone or many. As the saying goes, "You never get a second chance to make a first impression." What you say and how you say it has an impact that you cannot guage, especially in the cyber world. We must keep in mind that it is not all about us. We live in a community where we are relied upon to be good, helpful neighbors--not people who constantly cause disruption. It's OK to have the occasional loud party, but if that is all you ever do and your neighbors aren't getting any sleep--they're going to be cranky.
Later--I'm off to swoon over Orlando Bloom and Johnny Depp (sighhhhhh),
Brigid
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Thanks for checking back, Brigid, it's good to see you and hear from you.
Enjoy the movie! 8)
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Evidence is increasing that retraumatising people is bad for their mental health
My Pastor talked about this today too, about how rehashing the past is hindering people from moving forward. According to the way my pastor believes though, we shouldn't even have this message board, so I can' t totally embrace his view, as I would have to tell you all goodbye.
~Laura
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write,
Thanks for expounding, cause that's what I really wanted you to do! Typically, your posts are very thoughtful and wise, and I don't know if you could tell from my reply but I was a bit dissappointed in your first post. The others made up for it though. :wink:
All,
I am still just struggling, Struggling - I really am - with what feels like "You should know better" instructions. What if I don't? What if I'm just now learning to use my voice and I'm going to make mistakes, and screw up and say things that aren't well thought-out and that are rude and tactless, but I really Really did think it out before I said it? And I couldn't see anything wrong with what I was about to say, cause That's Where I'm at? And I accept that - I accept me, mistakes and all.
Reply anyone, only if you want to. I'm getting a bit exasperated defending myself so I guess I'll stop and go back to my regularly scheduled program of posting.
And I also realize it could be a mistake in my perception that all these posts are directed at me, they're just vents or attempts to describe personal Lessons Learned - for the sake of helping others - themselves (which part of me knows they are, but part of me thinks - these feel like digs). By dig I mean the: I already got it so you should too message.
I still fall back to what if what is missing is Patience? Plain and simple. Patience by those who "know better" with those of us who don't (yet). :shock:
pb
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I had another thought and that was this:
If I am not ready and/or willing to change, it would be wise of me to sit on my fingers rather than respond in any conflict I'm feeling here. Cause I've noticed a theme in many of the posts that have been given. People seem to be saying this:
Don't engage ME in conflict, cause I'm not going there (which I translate as: I'm not ready to change/I don't have the energy right now/I'm OK where I'm at, no changing gonna happen here with me, uh-uh, not today).
I respect and understand this, I do. If one isn't willing to change, they tend not to engage in conflict. And that's fine. Some of us are ready and willing, however. Some of us need to change. We recognize its a matter of life or death, so we're engaging in healthy conflicts. Some of them might turn out to be unhealthy, but not all conflict is bad. Conflict is a necessary part of life, as is change. Especially for those impacted by Ns - I believe.
pb
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Hi Penelope and everyone,
And I also realize it could be a mistake in my perception that all these posts are directed at me, they're just vents or attempts to describe personal Lessons Learned - for the sake of helping others - themselves (which part of me knows they are, but part of me thinks - these feel like digs). By dig I mean the: I already got it so you should too message.
I think that what you wrote above is a more accurate interpretation. I think you got it right and you are correct to move away from the more negative interpretation which wil only cause you grief. Even if someone would be hurtful enough to take the approach that you ought to know better, there isn't any good in it for you to even pay attention to that message.
When I write things such as, "my approach is so and so", I am trying to help by mentioning that I have had the same issue, and giving an example of what works for me. I use "I" messages because we are told everywhere that I messages are less offensive. And I know that I do not know that much about any of you guys, but I know lots about me, so I am on relatively safe ground telling what I do rather than saying what you should do or telling what you are doing.
I respect and understand this, I do. If one isn't willing to change, they tend not to engage in conflict. And that's fine. Some of us are ready and willing, however. Some of us need to change.
Another way to interpret this would be that not everyone is at the same place at the same time. For you, conflict may lead to healthy change right now. For others, it could be unhealthy and even harmful. I think it is important to respect that we don't know about everyone's state of mind at this time, and they have to make the healthy choice for them. I know personally I cannot make healthy choices for everyone. I have my hands full attempting to make them for myself.
I do think that certain words or ways of speaking are harsh or raw enough to be hurtful to a majority of people, and that we have the responsibility in order to maintain a community, to avoid those types of communication, even if venting seems to help us personally right then. That is just my opinion. I value the community and am willing to make an extra effort to keep it going. Just because the board is up doesn't mean it is functioning as a supportive community.
I also think that everyone on the board has made mistakes. I know I have, over and over. The key was to come up here and admit it. People are enormously forgiving if you admit your error and give them a chance to see that your intention was not bad. That is healing for all.
Plucky
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that was a very kind and thoughtful response plucky. thanks
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Thanks for saying that Penelope. Now I feel all fluffy and warm inside!
Plucky
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Pb,
And I also realize it could be a mistake in my perception that all these posts are directed at me, they're just vents or attempts to describe personal Lessons Learned - for the sake of helping others -
There is much more to respond to, but this I wanted to address right away. In no way was this post directed at anyone in particular. Have you been party to some of the controversy here recently? Yes, but the same could be said for most of us at one point or another. It is a learning experience--both directly experiencing it and observing it. I think watching the resolution--if there is one--is also a wonderful learning experience for the participants and observers. I don't, however, see much point in trying to reignite the controversy with baiting and sarcasm. Those types of posts are better left in your head and off your fingers, imo.
But we all make mistakes, say things we regret, take offense where none was intended, and react more negatively toward some people than others. Because of our established relationships with members of this board--be they positive, negative or neutral--we "hear" things being said to us differently. We tend to listen to those we respect and care about, and perhaps blow off or flare up at those we have more negative feelings about. I'm as guilty of this as the next person and of course, this is human nature, and affects all aspects of our lives--not just what happens on this board.
Stormy,
Thank you for researching the actual numbers of new people who are joining this board. It is interesting to see that so many have joined, but I still have to wonder why we have not heard from many of them. It seemed to me that back when you and I were new here, that there were new posters every week and they did tend to hang around for awhile. A few of us diehards are still here, but many have left.
I, personally, have missed the new posters with their stories and seeking help to understand and recover. I thought that was the purpose of this board and it seems we are moving away from that. I agree that that is the nature of group dynamics, but if the mission here is to help victims of narcissism, without a facilitator to keep us on track, we are shifting the focus based on the needs of a few more vocal members than perhaps the needs of greater numbers who are not as willing, for whatever reason, to make their needs and desires known.
But I am not the facilitator, nor do I have any control whatsoever over what takes place here. These are my observations as someone who has been here for awhile, who is a bit older than most here, and who is mostly recovered from the injuries of my abusers. I'm not sure even why I still come here, but I feel compelled on a regular basis and even to post once in awhile. There are people here that I care about and who care about me. That is reason enough for now to hang around.
I will address more later.
Brigid
Added on edit--just had to add that spending the afternoon holding hands with my b/f while watching Orlando and Johnny on the big screen can really make a rainy day quite bright. :wink:
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Hi Penelope
If one isn't willing to change, they tend not to engage in conflict.
I can see where you're coming from in this. There IS the other side of the coin in that I have learned how to take care of myself - If I judge that there is an unhealthy person that always has to get the last word and do whatever they please at my expense, part of taking care of myself is limiting or stopping engagement with that person.
I am a huge advocate for not backing away from conflict, but there is a point when it becomes unhealthy. You may have heard of the saying, "Never argue with a drunk (or a person who's drunk)." This is the same concept to me. At times I CHOOSE not to engage with those unhealthy people who go around in circles chasing their tails. I get out of the circle.
I wish I could say that I simply DON'T engage, but I am not perfect and get sucked in at times. I think it's easier for me to get sucked in because some part of me is used to the turmoil created from my FOO and 10 years with an N.
In my circle of women we DO engage in a HEALTHY conflict management model which increases the level of intimacy among members and creates a tighter circle to do deep processing work.
Brigid - I agree that the energy of the board has changed since the time I first got here. I too, miss the stories of newcomers and have missed hearing your words of wisdom.
Movinon
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Hi Brigid and Movinon and everyone,
I agree that the board seems to have changed since I've been here. I don't know how much is me, how much is the board, and how much is just natural change. But I do miss the new stories and the sense of comradeship.
When I first came on the board, I felt like a fish that had just struggled to the edge of the water and couldn't make it any further. All of you guys in the water yelled out, you can make it! Don't give up! I've been there! And you splashed water on me to help me struggle in. I feel like it saved my life.
I could post at any hour with my desperation and there was always someone there to give their time, their support, share their own stories, and dare I say love?
For this reason I just don't feel like I can walk away. I have wanted to often, when I see fighting and hurting and going around in circles. I also feel that sense of loss of the old ways.
Pema Chodron was on television, and all of you guys that have been going on about her, you are right. She said so many wonderful things, but one I have been able to use lately is that every person, without exception, has the possibility to...what did she say? Reach their highest potential? No, it was more like, reach the highest potential that any human can, forgive me for not remembering the words.
So, as I was in the process of writing off people in what felt like self-preservation, I just couldn't get this thought out of my head. It is also what I have been taught in church. Of course, I had conveniently forgotten.
All this to say, I think that with the exact people we have on the board,we can make it again into a supportive place where we feel safe and others feel welcome. No one needs to leave. No one needs to shut up. We can do it.
a pollyanna-ish
Plucky
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So, as I was in the process of writing off people in what felt like self-preservation, I just couldn't get this thought out of my head. It is also what I have been taught in church. Of course, I had conveniently forgotten.
All this to say, I think that with the exact people we have on the board,we can make it again into a supportive place where we feel safe and others feel welcome. No one needs to leave. No one needs to shut up. We can do it.
a pollyanna-ish
Plucky
Hi Plucky
This isn't pollyanna-ish, it's inspiring and comes from the heart... thank you for saying it. For being here. For coming back / deciding not to go...
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Thanks Stormy,
I was feeling a bit, well embarrassed. Foolish. Thanks for the pat.
Plucky
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[laughing] thank you too Plucky because while I was posting this I kept thinking - who cares what I think, and why would Plucky need or want my approval?
:oops:
those old N-installed tapes never quite stop playing, do they.
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:) sounds good to me too Plucky
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Hi Hope,
I just wanted to address a few of the points and questions you had.
What exactly is the source of the pressure you're feeling, Brigid? Are you feeling pressure because no one is jumping through hoops in an attempt to woo back the few people who said they were taking a brief leave of absence?
I would not term what I am feeling as pressure. I guess more of what I feel is a sense of guardianship for some of the more sensitive souls on this board. This has certainly been my role more than once in my life--for my mother from my father, for my exnh from his father--and why I found my passion when I became a mother. I finally had two little people who really needed me to take care of them, allowed me to and appreciated that I did. No one here has asked me to speak on their behalf, I just naturally fall into that role, I guess.
This is supposed to be a place of healing and growth, and yet I feel, Brigid, as though you think those of us who are posting are expected to be above and beyond all of this. Well, obviously we're not. Should we be able to simply pull ourselves up by our bootstraps and play nice? I'm trying to play nice!
I'm not sure what the "this" is that you are suppose to be above and beyond, but if you are referring to controversy--no. No one is above and beyond controversy, least of all me. But I have learned through many hours of therapy that there are healthier and more productive ways to handle it. As I said yesterday, we learn through controversy--by directly being enmeshed and by observing. But, because of the nature of the cyber world, what you say and how you say it takes on a much greater impact that speaking with someone face to face.
I do not look for opportunities to speak up in my own defense, or for anyone else to speak up in my defense. I will not, however, sit back and tolerate lies being spoken about me. That I will correct to the best of my ability, not to cause anyone else harm. That's where I stand.
Nor should you. I agree that if someone is misrepresenting you, you have the right defend yourself. I don't think anything I said originally would dispel that.
But I don't view any of what goes on here as a waste. It's all learning and whether it seems positive or negative to any one individual at a certain moment, all depends on where you are in the spectrum of healing, imo.
I never termed what was going on as a waste. I do think it became overbearing and redundant at times and there definitely was some unnecessary mud-slinging going on. I think when it gets to that point, those disagreements are better had in private so as not to re-traumatize the innocent victims who read the posts, imo.
Hope, I don't mind that you weren't mooshy-schooshy. You were respectful and that is all I can ask for.
Plucky,
I appreciated what you said and I too, have great hope for the members of this board that this too will pass and we will work together to support one another into the future.
Brigid
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Dear Brigid,
Many thanks for responding and clarifying. I'm aware that I wouldn't have been able to even make my initial response to your post here if I didn't respect and admire you. Because I do respect and admire you, and value your opinion of me, I received your initial post on this thread as a personal chastisement and went into defense mode. It seems that I'm the one who was feeling the pressure. I still do. Part of me cries out, "Who decides who are the 'sensitive souls on this board' who are in need of guardians/protectors?" I'm thinking that's a very subjective question and each of us might select different souls as needing protection, depending on ...with whom our shadow most identifies, perhaps?
I don't know. Honestly, I have alot of inner resentment and frustration at this moment and so I'm left with a sense of deep dissatisfaction. I do recognize that this these feelings are my own problem to sort through and I do not want to dump them onto anyone. So again, I thank you for explaining your position and I do understand what you've said here, at an intellectual level, anyway.
In my heart, I know that often the people who are most sensitive, most easily wounded, and most desperately in need of understanding are not necessarily those who cover their words in poetry, hearts and flowers. I'm feeling a disparity here that I can't reconcile without digging deeper, but I'll do that digging within myself and not look to others for satisfaction.
Hope
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Dear Hope,
I guess I am unclear about how you are feeling--not just about this discussion, but also what may be going on in your own life. It sounds like some kind of inner confusion that is causing you to question your own feelings and beliefs or perhaps the way you react to beliefs of others. I probably have that all wrong, but as Penelope said, it sounds like you're possibly in a break-through mode.
I'm sorry if I caused the resentment or dissatisfaction--that was certainly not my intent. Nor was it to shame or single out or point fingers. I was just trying to give those quiet, shy voices a chance to come out of the woodwork and feel safe, if only for a moment. I wanted to encourage those who were not sharing their stories, to do so. To assure them that we value what they have to say and want to help. It would not be at the expense of those already here, but a wonderful addition and some new perspectives. That's all.
Why I feel the need to do that is my problem, issue or lot in life. I'm sure it is also why I care so much about the defenseless animals and children of the world. It is my nature to nurture those who are not as strong. I am not always so strong myself, but maybe I can fake it better. I dunno.
If I can offer any help in your current dilemma, please feel free to lean on me. Sometimes I can have really big shoulders.
Hugs,
Brigid
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(((((((Brigid))))))) thank you for your offer of help. You have already helped immensely simply by being willing to listen and respond. It's ok that you don't clearly understand. Not sure you could, since I don't completely understand myself.
I do know that you certainly have not caused me any bad feelings. I've only acknowledged that I have those feelings because it seemed like the honest thing to do. I can't smile and say, "no big deal" without putting on a mask that I might never be able to remove. In my case, it would be much simpler and less stressful to disappear into the sunset rather than to even tell you how I felt. But then it wouldn't be about me having bad feelings, it would be about my bad feelings having me. I think maybe that's the portal to the breakthrough you mentioned and I fully intend to walk through it.
I am thankful that you have enough strength and courage to stand and speak for what you believe. I am not always so strong myself either and I don't even know how to fake it, but I am still standing. I have never been able to pretend, so when situations seemed impossibly frustrating or painful, the only option I saw was to disappear. That is no longer an option. I know that you didn't intend to cause me any hurt. Apology accepted, resentment over, satisfaction complete. I agree that it's important for the quiet, shy voices to have room to speak and I'm happy to be standing alongside you in this place.
With love,
Hope