Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Dr. Richard Grossman on August 07, 2006, 11:15:47 AM
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Hi nightsong,
There are going to be periods where the board is dominated by conflict. We have recently been through one of these times. And yes, the board, during these times becomes unsafe, and potentially “re-traumatizing”. If I were new, I certainly would think twice about joining, and three times about posting. And if I were an old-timer I would consider leaving because the board is no longer safe and supportive—and it appears that it will remain this way forever. However, these periods inevitably end, and very often the people in conflict experience growth as a result—they are able to see and accept parts of themselves that they have never seen (or wanted to see) before, and as a result respond in a less defensive fashion. I hope this is the result of the current conflict.
In the mean time, I will keep reading and do everything I can to keep the board safe over the long haul.
Best,
Richard
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Thank you Dr. G for continuing to keep an eye on things. It is comforting to feel your presence.
Brigid
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Dr. G,
Thank you for not silencing us.
Hope
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hi jac,
It took me awhile to understand what you meant, but I did see that's what you meant (what you've explained above) after we talked about it more and I finally did come to understand it. Thank you for all your posts to me. I did not find them to be "mud-slinging" as somebody expressed. I found them to be heart-felt, honest and a bit raw, as would be expected, coming from someone who has seen a lot of abuse in her life, as have I, I can most surely relate to you.
((((((((((((((((((( jac ))))))))))))))))))
I do hope that one day you will accept my apology? cause I sure do like you and always have. I like everyone here, even though I don't always like the behaviors I see - I know in my heart that I trust people, or at least I try to, as I do believe we are all made in the image and likeness of God. This is probably a contradiction of something I said earlier when my emotions were running high :shock: :oops: <oh boy>
dr G. - nice speech, even if it wasn't a lecture. :)
hope - I feel something (trying to empathize) with you that feels Tenuous. I know that's not a feeling, tenuous, but no other words are coming to mind right now that seem better to describe it. hang in there, OK. I think you are on the verge of something great, in other words. Uncomfortable feelings aint all bad.
((((((((((((((((((((hope))))))))))))))))))))))))
brigid - just wanted to wave and say "hi." I giggle at the thought of you and your sweetie on that Harley, too. :)
pb
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Thanks Dr. G,
I would just like to again thank you for this board. It is an amazing place where infinite (some lovely and some not-so-inviting) realizations can occur. My own past board conflicts taught me a lot about me, mostly about how I deal with criticism, being reprimanded, or being called on inconsistencies. My life literally changed when I began to visit this board, as I came to know there were tons of others just like me, severely affected by the Ns in their life. I realize that we are all in the same boat really and that there are myriad ways of dealing with that reality [having Ns in your life] . The board conflicts are upsetting, true. The anger, depression, frustration, insensitivity, fear, mistrust, dislike, disrespect, inconsideration that was a part of the N relationships we endure(d) and are a major part of what gets reflected here on the board. I know I've done it, myself. But the reason I've come back after two significant breaks from the board is because there's something you see here that you will never see with your favorite N: resolution, apologies, and forgiveness. Shucks, one of the very first personalities I rumbled with became one of my favorite, most steady, and true buddies on the entire board. Granted, I believe there comes among us the occasional poster who uses familiar Ntactics to enrage and incense possibly just for the heck of it. But for the most part, we the victims of Ns, are sensitive to one another's plight and we truly want to see progress for each other, at least I do.
I'm all for taking the occasional "break" from the board, sometimes it's necessary, in order to re-gain perspective, and perform that thing that would rule out whether or not we have become the Ns we abhor: Self-evaluation. The "break" is also good when you're having that 'why does this always happen to me?' moment. It gives you an opportunity to observe the patterns of the board and the ebb and flow of energy that's constantly taking place here. I like to think of this place as I think of life, it's a smorgashboard, [you know those huge buffet thingy's], you can eat what you'd like and leave the crap you can't stand right there on the ice for someone else who loves it or needs it. Thanks again Dr. G.
Take care everyone,
Tiffany
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All the comments here were awesome and touching to me!
I just want to contribute a tiny bit on two things that really stood out for me:
Penelope: I know in my heart that I trust people, or at least I try to, as I do believe we are all made in the image and likeness of God. This is probably a contradiction of something I said earlier when my emotions were running high
Penelope, I just want to say that, even if you do contradict yourself in what you said, it is ok. Sometimes, because of not being allowed to "feel" there is a contradiction in those feelings, so it seems that one changes her/his mind. It is all ok and part of the healing. Blessya and know that you are loved and safe
Tiffany: But the reason I've come back after two significant breaks from the board is because there's something you see here that you will never see with your favorite N: resolution, apologies, and forgiveness. Shucks, one of the very first personalities I rumbled with became one of my favorite, most steady, and true buddies on the entire board.
I enjoyed reading your post so much. It was interesting hearing about your personal time on this board and how it helped you to grow and self-reflect. That is so important for everyone to be able to do that.
I agree with what you said about resoultion, apologies, forgiveness. I have also been able to give and receive these things here, and it has softened my heart many times.
What you said about how the personality you first rumbled with, became one of your most steady, true buddies, I believe I feel the same about Penelope. I love reading her deep insights and I enjoy the newfound communication with her. I am also very careful to try and not upset nor trigger her...not because of walking on eggshells, but because I feel a mutual respect between us.
As far as people here being raised by N's, I am an exception to this rule. I am one who came here without "baggage" of major abuse, N'ism from parents, although my former mentor/best friend Jodi was a very N'istic experience. It, as other people have told me, is not the same as being raised by N's. I am grateful that was not my lot in life for sure, but I also feel blessed that this board and all of you are here. I may clash in the way I express myself, because I tend to be too tactless when I feel very strong about things, but I always read people's comments and criticisms with the intention to better myself so I can be a blessing to others.
~Laura
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Dr. G, Thank you!! I have been watching after I interrupted the "I'm leaving" thread to say I was leaving! No one commented on my comment. I wasn't surprised because they were too involved in their own debate to take heed when someone said, "hey stop it!!"
I saw it happen before and I left for a long time because I didn't need the extra stress in my life..............I came back during an especially trying time and most all the people on my thread were very supportive............but those threads die off because they are boring. That's why I think people banter back and forth. It gets their thread at the head of the class and it keeps us all intrigued...............what will they say next!!! Almost funny in a reality TV kind of way.....
Kelly
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BTW, Kelly, Please don't leave! I like you a lot. I also think some people here don't want to get better... rehashing things every time there is a break from havok doesn't bring about any progress. I see you as a very strong and thoughtful member, so I hope you'll stay. I don't usually read through the "I'm leaving" or "I'm Mad At..." posts, because they are a waste of time. :)
Love, Beth
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Hi Kelly,
I saw your post on the "Leaving" thread, but I just didn't want to post any more on that topic. I'm sorry... should have said what I thought at the time which was, I hope you'll stay and continue to share with us here. I do believe that we can all learn and grow together if we'll stick with it and just try to be patient with the fact that each one is at a different stage. It's kinda like kids growing up, I think. We have this wake-up moment where we realize "Hey, I've been abused! This isn't right!!" and then from that point on we're like infants again, having to re-learn everything. Babies have so much to learn... to be able to trust, to sleep through the night, to not cry every time they have the slightest need once they realize that those needs will be met, to sit up, to crawl and then to walk... and then to run... :) Can't rush those stages or the needed skills won't be learned. Just takes loads of patience, I think. I hope you'll stay.
Love,
Hope
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hi moon,
glad you were feeling strong enough to pop in here.
(((((((((((((((((((((moon))))))))))))))))))))
pb
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Pb,
When I posted earlier here, I hadn't read back far enough (I have my posts in reverse order... yeah, I read magazines from the back toward the front, too :shock:) anyhow.... (((((((((((Pb))))))))))) thank you for the hugs. I'm so glad I looked back and saw that. You had the right word, too... tenuous; as in barely clinging to the slope. Thanks to God and people like you, I have a new foothold. Thank you.
Much love,
Hope
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you're welcome hope.
snickers bar for dinner :?
you?
night night
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uh oh... Pb, you can have the other half of my Ruby Tuesday burger. Had a day of school clothes shopping for kids, followed by dinner out... whew, stuffed, tired, but no bed cuz husband is assembling his new desk. Could be a longggg night, but tis cool... tomorrow is another play day then back to the routine on Wed.
Rest well.
Love,
Hope
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:) Moon .... No, it sure isn't easy.
Love,
Hope
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I really have no idea how I am perceived.
Like this:
I have come to a point in my journey that I wish to learn without conflict and know this can be done.
(((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((()))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
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Hey moon,
I just want to clarify something. I don't need conflict. This is a misnomer. I don't even know what that means. But because it's a part of life, when it happens to me (when I feel conflicted with something that's going on), I have a choice about how I'm going to respond. Some conflict is worth getting to the bottom of, sorting out, some is not. Personally I thought that my conflicted feelings about RM were worth getting to the bottom of. I thought she was worth the trouble, and so am I. Did I make mistakes in choosing to engage in the particular manner that I did? Of course, I'm only human. Was it worth it? YES
You feel conflicted here, no? Which is why you keep posting about it? So it feels like we're worth it to you. That you're choosing not to do it in an aggressive style is a good choice. But you're not walking away from the conflict. I hear you talking about it, suggesting resolutions - you're saying, let's get through conflicts more peaceably.
hugs,
pb
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I also post to share and understand, moon. Curious why you think I've got anger and fight in me to a different extent. :)
I think I know what you're saying though - if I did - which you can't know except by asking and understanding, that would be something you could not relate to.
pb
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Jac,
I grew up in NY too...in Buffalo, and I know what you mean
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Hi all.......well, it's been a day and quite a few posts. Thanks for wanting me to stay. Sometimes I think my posts are non-sequiturs (sp?) I just pipe in in the middle of a conversation between two and go back to the first post of the thread. Reason for that is because I don't read all these in a timely manner and when I am trying to respond to the initial thread it has often morphed into a whole new debate.
Anyway, I hear the us against them thing. It has become us against them at work. My aunt and Nmom against stable, rational bookkeeper and me. Problem is the bookkeeper is getting sooooooo frustrated with the other two that she is the one looking bad......................I see it on these threads and I see it in real life. The person who is the most stable seems to be labelled the least because they have the audacity to point out the least. Another elephant in the room/emperor has no clothes analogy. However, it might have a lot to do with temperaments as well. I am kind of a speak before I think girl and sometimes that opens my mouth and inserts my foot!! Some others do that as well.
Well, hopefully we can all help each other through these times. Sometimes I really think I am going crazy. Life cannot be this hard. But then I have to keep going back and realizing that, yes, I had a neglected, abusive childhood and it took me 40 years to really figure that out................and I am not the crazy one...............my mom is........and that makes me so very happy and somehow vindicated of all the instability labels!!!
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moon and jac take it to PM
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Moon,
I'm lost now in the convo...I don't recall me saying that you said I have anger in me or whatever. Hope you feel better though from the hernia situation. My daughter had an inguinal one operated on before she turned 2.
~Laura
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Hi Kelly...
Just wanted to say .... glad you're here! Hope you're having a good day.
Love,
Hope
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Moon,
No clue what you mean by "mean street stuff"
I grew up in Buffalo, not the CITY of NY. I have never even been to NY. THAT is where the mean-street stuff happens, not where I lived...well, NOW it does, but it didn't back then
I was saying about NYers being angry people overall, because NY is a very fast-paced area where people are highly STRESSED
That is what I meant.
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Here we go again
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Jac: I guess I agree....................I tend to expose my mom in front of other people, too. I was so sick of the presentation of the perfect family that now I try to expose anything that is phony.........but I still don't like the back and forth jabs at each other............just remember that in this situation you can never hear the inflection in someone's voice so sometimes the meaning goes right over your head. I think that is what you guys were doing. Not understanding the meaning..................
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Moonlight: MY FAMILY HAS SEEN ME THU IT ALL AND STILL THEY LOVE ME
I'm confused...I thought your family was that of N'ism? How can it be that they love you yet abuse you, or do you mean someone other than the abusers? I don't get it
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Hi Moon,
I wish there was some way I could take away the stuff that is happening on this thread. I think you are a very good soul. And don't let someone else steal your words. You know who your family is even if they don't. (Maybe they can't read?) Stand strong! And maybe the others who ignore you will be able to answer you. If not, then you have your answer.
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Hey Jac
Thank you for pointing out that some of the posts were deleted. That is another form of rendering someone voiceless as well, in my view. I noticed that some were missing too, so I'm glad you saved them.
~Laura
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And count to ten....
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
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Moon, I'm really confused here.
LOH hasn't left.
She and jac are trying to work this out.
Jac has apologized several times for her remark.
They're trying to resolve this.
Can you find a way to support them in trying to work this out? Wouldn't that fit in more with your own values and beliefs? Might it provide an opportunity to work out your own issue with jac, in context?
Sorry to be a busybody, but I'm concerned about this and about you. It's not like you to hang on to something negative, it's not like you to hold a grudge. I don't understand this and I'm concerned, because this has gone on for several days now.
If I have offended you I apologize, because that isn't at all my intention, it's the last thing on earth I want to do. I've been trying really hard to find the best way to express this, and I'm running out of time, and I don't think I got it perfect but I don't think it can wait until tonight.
So if I have offended you, I ask you to believe it's not intended, and to forgive me.
((((((((((Moon))))))))))
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Moonlight: My father is an N.RM YOU KNEW MY DAD IS AN N.YOU KNEW IT LONG AGO. you were not confused when you made that post you knew my dad WAS an N and we spoke of it in PMS.
Boy! Did I get lost somehow in the shuffle here?
Moonlight, I do not know what you are upset with me about. I have always liked you, so what is it that I said that hurt you so? I DO care about your feelings and you.
Yes, I knew your dad was an N. Was there a reason you mentioned that? Did I discredit that fact somehow? What post are you talking about that I made.
I am not being sarcastic here with ya...I sincerely am not sure why you are at odds with me, and your post is so upset and jumbled that I could not make heads nor tails of most of it.
Moonlight, could you please make a post where you address me individually about what I did that upset you like this?
Thank you.
~Laura
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Moonlight: HI LAURA RELY #40 FORGET IT I LOVE YOU AND YOU KNOW IT I do not stay mad .so forget it .I just never had a sort of thing like this happen to me in real life or in cyber space.
moon
no no no, Moonlight. I know you love you and I love you too, but I really want to understand where you felt I was not understanding you, so I can clarify and make it right.
My husband often starts telling me his feelings and suddenly says "just forget it"...I do not want to just forget whatever it was that I did to upset you. I want to understand it.
~Laura
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I'm absolutely fine Moon, thanks for worrying about me but honestly- I'm really well.
I am sorry you are upset, PM me if you like, I'll be back online tonight.
I've been thinking earlier about what people are always telling me about not trusting my ex. I am always being encouraged to engage him in conflict, people call it 'stick up for yourself'.
To become enlightened in Zen is apparently a complex simple thing: a person must simply remove their doubt that they are not enlightened. That's a pretty powerful life metaphor for me, letting go of uncertainty to attain certainty, but maybe not the certainty I thought!
Conflict is random, however much it seems reasoned and reasonable- there's no way of controlling the energy we unleash and everyone becomes unable to see reflections clearly as the waters become more agitated.
I hung a Crucifix in my home last week. Of course, it's now just my home and my son's, but I have never been able to hang one before when I lived with my ex because he hates religion and would be angry. I just couldn't hang it for many years until I was sure my intention in doing so wasn't partially to provoke that inevitable response in him.
I told my son about it yesterday, he asked me why I put it up now, and laughed out loud when I said 'it's not the purest of motives for displaying the Cross, it'll make your husband furious!'
Even if it seems entirely legitimate and someone else's problem, I know it harms me too, makes me part of something I don't need to be.
I may not be able to trust my ex and his motives or behaviour, but I want to be able to trust me and mine.
Take care everyone. It's a beautiful day, who's up for a walk?!
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((((((((Write)))))))) I'm so glad you're fine. What you said about hanging the cross just resonates with me so much... to know that your motivations are free and clear of any attempt to influence... or get a reaction of any kind from another person... to me, that is true liberty. Thank you for sharing that. And a walk sounds lovely.
Love,
Hope
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Dr Grossman -
Thank you very much for your thoughtful reply. I understand your point of view.
However, this thread has almost at once turned back into the stuff that I for one find so alienating, intimidating, cliquey and unhelpful. If those participating find it useful then that is fine. I don't, so I shall take myself elsewhere.
Good luck and good wishes to everyone here, may we all find peace in our own ways.
nightsong
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Here, here, Nightsong!! Amen!
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*sigh*
I agree with Nightsong and Kelly.
While I can appreciate the necessity to resolve conflicts with fellow posters, lately it has seemed as if the conflict itself - or drama for drama's sake (and not the topic that started it) - takes precident over helpful, healing discussions.
I think a HUGE point that everyone involved in these conflicts seems to keep forgetting is that anyone that has been touched by a dysfunctional relationship (Nism/abusive) is going to be sensitive - perhaps overly sensitive - to the meanings behind words. In an online environment, there is no "tone" or other cues that we rely on to interpret the meanings of what is being said. I know I do this - and I'm sure I'm not the only one. This means, especially for this community, that you NEVER post something hurtful or mean - or continue fights that have no purpose...the term "beating a dead horse" springs to mind. Well, there have been whole herds of dead horses stinking up the place! Not a nice visual, is it?
This doesn't excuse the "stir the pot" type of poster, but they are a type of poster that is present in EVERY online community. It shouldn't be too hard to recognize and ignore that type, however.
This is why I don't comment unless I have something constructive or something I need help with - which means I haven't posted anything in a good while. Lately it feels to me that this board is not as safe and comforting as it used to be.
Being voiceless is one thing, but having others yelling so loudly that the drown out the ones that are just finding their voice is sad.
I don't see me getting what I needed from this board anymore. I also can't see that anything I have to contribute is necessarily going to be heard or is even worth the effort to type it...
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hey moon it's OK. No apology necessary. But, I'll accept yours anyway. Also I am sorry.......... if I caused you any grief. I will try harder next time not to, k?
pb
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Glad you sound okay ((((((((Moon))))))
please don't worry, the whole 'board' isn't watching. Honestly. Everyone is more concerned with what happens to them, than what happens with you. Human nature, brain-wiring, it's how we are. Please be comforted - nobody takes as much notice of you as you might think they do. We're ALL too busy worrying about -
what if nobody likes me?
what if they think I'm an N?
what if they think I'm a bad person?
what if they think I'm wrong?
etc etc etc...
truth is, we're all here and we are all human, even if I go off on one occasionally and say we're not, but really, we are. I guess some are more children than adults (my parents for example) but human nevertheless. Sweet dreams Moon.
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Moonlight, guess what...I do not expect you to be perfect and never make mistakes. I like you just as you are.
Laura
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there are times I get all tangled up in conflict anyway without knowing how or why it happened you know what I mean?
absolutely, none of us have to be perfect Moon, and you're the first person to proffer the olive branch or support someone who's having a bad time, if you have a bad day everyone can see that's all it is.
I have to have a hernia operation soon, a small umbilical thing getting worse, might as well get it done whilst I still have really good health insurance ( are there any threads or good info sources about divorce and the practicalities? )
My ex was in full N mode tonight, sometimes it's harder when he's happy ( sorry to be mean :( ) I find him insufferable then, he's just oblivious and pretty obnoxious. I cut short his rant against G_d and took myself off to watch a movie...the long new Pirates of Caribbean.
Take care everyone, time for a dog walk and some sleep.
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Hi,
I think that alot of what happens here in this forum can be explained by the "contagion theory" of crowd psychology, which states in part:
Shielded by the anonymity of a crowd, people abandon personal responsibility and surrender to the contagious emotions of the crowd. A crowd thus assumes a life of its own, stirring up emotions and driving people toward irrational, perhaps violent, action.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crowd_psychology
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CH:
I think that alot of what happens here in this forum can be explained by the "contagion theory" of crowd psychology, which states in part:
Shielded by the anonymity of a crowd, people abandon personal responsibility and surrender to the contagious emotions of the crowd. A crowd thus assumes a life of its own, stirring up emotions and driving people toward irrational, perhaps violent, action.
I do not consider myself to be part of the "alot of what happens here"
I have never been one to go along with the crowd. I do not abandon personal responsibility nor do I take on emotions of a crowd. I have a mind and heart of my own.
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I can see that about you, Laura. It's clear to me.
I am not so easily unaffected by the tone of those with whom I associate. If someone is feeling down or (especially) expressing disapproval, I tend to not only pick up those emotions, but incorporate them into myself. Working on that. However, I don't want to work that out of my system so thoroughly that I become oblivious to the needs of those around me.
Love,
Hope
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Dear Sugarbear, Nightsong and Kelly,
I'm new here and don't know anyone well, or at all, really, but I did want to respond to this quote by Sugarbear
*sigh*
I don't see me getting what I needed from this board anymore. I also can't see that anything I have to contribute is necessarily going to be heard or is even worth the effort to type it...
I hear you. I certainly respect if you are not getting what you need from this board anymore, as only you can assess what is working for you or not. But I'm not so sure that what you contribute won't be heard. If it doesn't feel like it's not worth the effort to type, then that's one thing, and you have to honor that as real for you. However, one of the things I have learned over the years, either moderating a message board or two, or participating, off and on, in different forums, is that you never know who you will hear you, just who you will touch or what kind of an impact you will have.
No words spoken or printed are ever wasted...they're just picked up, sometimes, in places we would never expect and most times never find out.
If you are looking for more of an immediate response, and are desiring a kind of energy that you feel is lacking here, then I understand your choice to go. Whether you stay or leave, I know that this community I am stepping into has been impacted by your presence in some way, and I thank you for that.
Demian,
~DreamSinger
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hi Sugarbear,
I always look forward to your posts. I'm glad you're here. are you still here? hello???
<<<<<<<<am I talking to myself???>>>>>>>>>>>>> (said in hollow cave) Sometimes I don't answer posts that say "I think I'm leaving now" cause I figure I will not be heard. Is that weird and selfish? probably. I'm afraid my typing will be a waste...all that expended effort. Is that the appeal of all this conflict? Is it that we know someone's listening to us if we get to their uncomfortable emotions? Hmmmmmmmmmm. see, you've give me a lot to think about, as usual. Thank you sugarbear (((((((((((((((((((((sugarbear)))))))))))))))))))))))
kelly - not sure we've met. hi
nightsong - hello. I am sorry you are feeling that way. are you still here??????? (heh. guess I'm not past that uncomfortable feeling that you might not be listening. yet.:shock:)
pb
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HEY aLL! Thanks for telling me you hear me even if you don't reply to me.............it makes me feel wanted!! :D I am a tall girl. 5' 10" and have almost black hair. I am pale and have blue eyes. I think I should be remembered. But so many times people will look at me with this puzzled look - it's almost like they are saying "should I know you?" And I guess I would understand that if I wasn't this amazon woman. Sometimes I feel so anonymous in a crowd. You all know I've got the Nmom from hell - very interested in being the center of attention. We started our business the same day........January 1994.....................people label me a "second generation" retailer. I stand up in front of groups and say, "I AM NOT A SECOND GENERATION RETAILER........WE STARTED THE SAME DAY!!! IN FACT, I KNOW MUCH MORE THAN MY MOM!!!"
So maybe I want to be heard. I need to be heard. So the fact that a few of you say, "Hey, Kelly, I agree with you!!" I have a voice!!!!!!!!!
I HAVE A VOICE. I HAVE A VOICE. I HAVE A VOICE!!! And you know what?? I am smart. I probably have a lot to say if anyone would give me the time to say it!!! Can you tell I have been pshawed and hushed my whole life from my egotistical, abusive, arrogant, prideful, narcissistic, bitchy mother!!!!!!!!!!??????????
Ok, a little bit of pent up aggression off my chest!!!!! THAT is what this board is about!!!!
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Oh, yeah....this is growth. For the longest time I just had this feeling that I had a film all over my body and I just couldn't get it off. That film was the feeling I had about all the control, etc. that my mom had on me. I have three daughters and have done everything completely the opposite of my mom. Therapy started years ago when my ex and I had some marital difficulties..................hadn't even heard the word codependent before that. A long road has followed................I have gone through so much to finally figure out - I am not the problem...................she is. My therapist diagnosed her as "Patient X." The main problem in the whole family dynamic. But now my main issue is frustration and anger. However, I know that she is in the early stages of Alzheimers and I watched my gpa go through that. I figure she has 10 years before she completely loses it........but she is losing it now............slowly.............most people don't see it but I do.
My oldest is a bit like my Nmom.....so I get it from the top and the bottom. Oldest says mean things to me...................kind of sounds like the mean things I have been saying to my mom. The truth with a hammer.................
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I am worn out.......................someone said in an earlier post and I can't even remember what thread...................."here we go again." Sometimes I think we disagree with each other and it is all over semantics. My ex and I used to fight..........holler quite loudly................and we were agreeing.................we were just saying it in two different ways. That's when it becomes funny. When you are yelling and screaming at someone and you realize..............you're agreeing!!! :?
Dreamsinger, Sugarbear............hi! Thanks for the voice. Love being heard. Love it, love it, love it!!
Don't we all just need to be heard? To be validated?
You all are wonderful people who have so many great things to say!! Good job today!!!
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I hear you moon and kelly - you are having a nice conversation. I'm just listening. :)
pb
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For the longest time I just had this feeling that I had a film all over my body and I just couldn't get it off.
I think it's perfectly possible to make yourself invisible in a room by what vibes you give off- I do it consciously sometimes when I need some peace or am feeling, even though other times I can walk into a room and do the opposite.
Having had an N do that peculiar paying-attention-in-minute-detail-whilst-actually-not-even-seeing-you probably makes it a desirable thing, a way of projecting 'leave me alone' even when you can't escape.
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Wow!! I hadn't thought of that. And just the opposite is true, too, huh? The N walks into the room with her nose in the air and people cannot help but turn and look to see who has arrived. Meanwhile, I'll stand back while she makes a spectacle of herself. Overshadowed by the N. And yet Nmom asks me why I am in competition with her???
Wouldn't you just like to be seen AND heard????? Valued?
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The competetive thing really strikes all my nerves too kelly. I know what you mean.
My N Mom used to do that to me a lot - ask me why I was jealous, or "in competition with someone" (typically one of my siblings) and I was always like, what? I knew she was jealous of me. For everthing from how I did in school to my Dad's attention, to any talent I might have at anything.
I was so non-competetive too as a kid. I remember my soccer coach yelling at me in 8th grade cause I passed off the ball and let someone else score, all the time (I never scored a goal, all the years I played soccer). I thought to myself: I'm just here for the fun and my friends, I don't care if I win.
Sometimes I was very jealous of my siblings. They got more attention (the good kind) then I did. I was the lost child (3rd), then scapegoat typically. I was never a hero until recently, as an adult. Then, the funny thing was I was the only kid of 6 who could do no wrong. That's when I cut them off - I saw the sick irony of it. I knew it was wrong and didn't/couldn't enjoy their attention then. Not knowing my brothers & sisters were suffering.
The sad thing is, I'll probably be the only one to ever see their sick ways in my family.
*sigh*
sucks having a family but not being able to talk to them
pb
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Write,
re: that peculiar paying-attention-in-minute-detail-whilst-actually-not-even-seeing-you
That's it! It's so... objectified. Depersonalized. It's being reduced to the sum of just a few parts, and even if the parts being noted at the moment are positive, you just know that you've been reduced. Worse than invisible, I think.
Love,
Hope
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What would be the Christian view point be ?Just to love them is the best defense .
yes, I think you can love someone for who they are whilst recognising the limits of the relationship. That can mean lovong them in terms of wishing them love but keeping your distance whilst you heal too.
Many times down the years I have kcked myself for not just letting my ex and me be friends, and especially for the second marriage which failed within days really- right back to the same pattern. How could i be so stupid?!
He and I have a good relationship on and off, but when he's being obnoxious the only thing I can do is try to withdraw- physically if possible.
I think I am being loving to him by leaving him though, much more so than I was by staying in the relationship. He is coming around to seeing that gradually- with many relapses.
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I remember as a teenager after I got my driver's license I was so out of there. I finally had wings to fly away. I'll have to admit, the pendulum probably swung way the other way and I got into drinking, smoking and the like................so when I came into the house I literally ran right up to my room, closed and locked the door and tried not to be seen. So from that perspective, I guess I gave off vibes of trying to not be seen. Couple that with being completely overshadowed by my "Joan Crawford" mother (another post.....) who totally fills up a room with her presence.......no wonder people don't see me. Also, I am 46 years old and (thankfully) people think I am much younger. Not so much that I look young, but my mom does because of all the plastic surgeries she has had to stay young looking. So you have a 70 year old that looks 55..............that means she cannot have a 46 year old daugher so they assume I am maybe 30-35 years old. So from that perspective they don't think I could have as much experience as I do.
This summer I was on a panel with 4 gentlemen, pretty well known in my industry. They were reading our bios. They all were surprised when they heard I had a degree in Journalism and Mass communications and had 30 years experience in service, retail and sales. Again. They ASSUMED I didn't have that much experience or that I didn't have a degree................don't know why. Invisible. Overshadowed??
ASSUME. Circle the Ass, circled the U and circle the ME. When you assume you make an Ass out of You and Me!! I'll always remember that!