Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Healing&Hopeful on August 09, 2006, 05:55:37 PM
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Hiya all
I've just come back from meeting up with two girlfriends tonight... one of them is single and the other has been seeing a guy for a few months. (I'm the old married woman of the bunch :lol: )
It was interesting as my single friend is starting to get back into dating again after a few years of being single, and my other friend went on quite a few dates before she met this guy. She was saying about the various dates she had been on, and how one guy she met up with was telling her about his ex who had an incestuous family. My friends reaction was if someone tells you this on a first date it was a big no no, but she said something that really made me think of this place. About how he didn't have anything good to say about anyone and everything was always someone else's fault. She said she came away thinking, nope, don't want to see this guy again. My single friend was asking her advice, and she said, trust your instincts, trust your gut feeling... if it doesn't feel right, it probably isn't.
I felt so glad as from reading here I know this is quite a large red flag, and I'm so glad my friend was able to see it, and now she's met someone who is really suited to her, who treats her with a great deal of love and respect.
So thought I'd start a dating thread, where red flags, disastrous dates and great dates could be discussed if you would like to.
H&H xx
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Hiya H&H. I saw your post last night and have thought about it since. I've reached the conclusion that other than when i was very young - age 12-14 - I haven't been on what I'd think of as a 'date'! I sort of drifted into relationships and if there was any 'dating' it was like "let's go to the pub tomorrow" (is that a date?).
About how he didn't have anything good to say about anyone and everything was always someone else's fault.
So many folks can be like this it seems (or maybe I've met lots?) and to me, well, I just get bored very quickly. If they don't have anything positive to say I ...drift away!
Dating though, it made me think about choices, making choices actively rather than just 'going along' with someone else. I think I've done the latter more, in some areas of life. I guess also I haven't looked for a man as a potential life-time mate as such; I've been way too conditioned and have adopted a sceptical view about 'romantic' relationships. I like 'friends' more than mates/lovers etc. Is there a big difference? I don't know. I read that asked to give up either their best friends or their man (a woman's magazine reports), a big proportion of women would give up their man because they'd rather have their female friends to talk to (and they don't talk in the same way with their men) - which I found a pretty sad reflection of (heterosexual) 'relationships' today. Or maybe it's the women they asked who are sad. What gets me is that this stuff gets reported as though it's 'normal'. I don't think it's normal!
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I guess also I haven't looked for a man as a potential life-time mate as such
perfect synchronicity! I was thinking about this earlier.
I think it's perfectly ok for someone to subtly signal their anxieties on the first 2/3 dates eg. I am going through a divorce...wary of relationships...want to take things slowly etc
But offloading, complaining or blaming- red flags as you say.
Writing the list of qualities in your desired partner is a powerful way of identifying what you need to address in yourself too ( or it was for me! ) and makign you examine what really is important to you and what you're getting distracted with...
I never really realised I could choose a life-time partner, I guess I sort-of thought you had to take what comes along :? or maybe I just wasn't ready to work on myself enough to be able to be confident that what I was asking for I was able to give too?
The book Hopalong recommended 'A Fine Romance' is excellent for describing the process of dating, in particular that 'switch' thing where you're setting up a balance of the relationship and which used to totally freak me out until I understood it wasn't rejection, just defining the relationship.
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Hello H&H, Portia, and WRITE,
The timing of this is interesting. Yesterday I talked to an old friend who lost his longtime girlfriend just over a year ago. He is just now starting to think about dating again. He mentioned a few women that he found intriguing and then began to list off things about each one that made them unsuitable. He said, "I sound so picky." I told him that he has reached an age in which he knows some of the qualities he would appreciate in a mate and some, uhh - maybe not so much.
He is 47 so he does not want someone with small children. Understandable. His girlfriend was a heavy smoker. He does not want to be with a smoker. I get that, too. At a certain age and after spending time in long term relationships, I think it is normal and healthy to "choose" as WRITE suggests.
Good topic. Makes me very glad I am happily married.
ANewSheriff
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Great topic.
I LOVE that I know I have choices now - "Who woulda thunk it?"
I am actually beginning to come up with a dating plan. I won't be dating until February at least (that's what works for ME). I have no desire to repeat the mistakes I've made in my past and therefore am giving myself the gift of TIME as well to fix my broken picker.
I also have 3 children to consider in the whole mix of it and they absolutely MUST come first.
Let's see, I have to have soemone who is emotionally present, feeds my soul (as opposed to sucking me dry or taking all the time), knows how to get some of their needs met outside of the relationship, flexibility, is honest and trustworthy.
The "would-likes", although not written in stone are non-smoker, animal-lover, peace lover (hippi-types preferred), independent , loving, HUMOROUS,will love my children.
Man, this sounds like a dating ad. It's a step for me to begin to put some of my vulnerability back onto the board.
Thanks for getting the old brain going again!
Movinon
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I feel like I could write the book. pb's Dating Red Flags:
1. If he's drunk when he picks you up on date #1, 2, 3, or 4. Run. (If he's wearing mountain climbing shoes (the tight ones that look like elf shoes, impossible to walk in for any length of time) when he picks you up for the date, that means he's drunk).
2. If you find empty pill bottles in his trashcan (especially with other's names on them) and they look like controlled substances/narcotics. Run.
3. If he's stoned when he picks you up on date #1, 2, 3, or 4. Run.
4. If he mentions bisexuality and that it's No Big Deal or something to that affect on date #1, 2, 3, or 4. Run.
5. If he is 2 hours late picking you up to go hiking cause he's organizing his backpack, he's OCD. (Not that there's anything wrong with this, especially if his case is mild, but think hard about if you could really stand to live with someone like this...) I'd run.
6. If he constantly projects stuff his ex-girlfriend used to do to him onto you, not seeming to recognize you're not her. Run.
7. If you find empty alcohol bottles stashed all over the house in weird places, he's a closet alcoholic. Run.
8. He constantly has funny "beer breath." Run.
9. He has lady "friends" that call at all hours of the day and night. Run.
10. He tries to get too physical on date #1, 2, 3, or 4. Run.
11. While listening or attempting to listen to your stories gets constantly annoyed and says things like "Well That's Stupid," *pfffffffffffffffffft* (insecure) Run
12. Rear ends somebody leaving a restaraunt after drinking what you observed to be a bit too much alcohol while on date #1. Run.
13. Gets in a fight and puts someone in the hospital whilst on a date with you (you go to a party together). Run.
These are my red flags, others may be different. I'm sensitized to these from bad experience. ick :?
pb
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Sorry you had such a rough time Penelope.
I've been thinking about alcohol earlier. At dinner with friends this guy who is really nice unexpectedly brought booze - 2 huge bottles, and proceeded to get quite drunk even though he has a long drive home.
He's quite cute and seems a nice guy but I wouldn't be interested in a drinker either, makes me feel a bit hypocritical in a way after all the drinking I've done in my life, but it's just a huge turn-off to me now.
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Well, I once dated this guy who felt safe since he long ago dated my sister. I ran into him at my cousin's 40th birthday party, so also had many folks "in common". We talked for maybe 10 minutes around the beer keg. Later on I talked with another gentelman at the same party and witnessed the first guy stalking off, apparently upset that I was talking with someone else. Wow, did he attach quickly!
He came back shortly after and apologized sweetly, and said wow must have been affected by all the drinks. Was just so into you.
first red flag.
Anyway, I went for drinks with him and my sister (again feeling safe). She and I both kinda pistols, so at the very packed bar we talked and joked with guys along the narrow corridor the bathroom. When we returned to the table, once again this guy was pissed off, jealous, possessive, whatever. But not happy at all having seen me and my sister "cavorting" with guys.
2nd red flag.
I actually decided to see him again. We went again for drinks and ended up kissing at the end of the "date". I sent him home. He had a hard time leaving.
3rd red flag.
Next day i was busy working (I work from my home). He called and I screened the call, letting it go to voicemail. Shortly after I get a call on caller id which shows up as a payphone. I take it. It's him. He says, "So I'm not good enough for you to answer your phone, huh? I saw you in there. I knew you were there. When it's not me on the caller id you pick up????" This said extremely hostile.
I said. "Sorry, I don't respond to this. You're way out of line. Don't call again."
I never saw him after that.
I have no idea if he has followed me, or watched me or what. I have a feeling........
Watch those red flags!!!!
K.
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Just heard on the radio someone saying why so many woman love and marry "oafs" (the unmoveable ones): Can you guess what they said?
I'll give the "answer" tomorrow.
Anansi
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Anansi - cause they want to change them!!!
hey write - alcohol is not a big deal until you live with an alcoholic. Then, it's a major deal. I've dated a lot and never met an "alcoholic" (a true one) until the one I described in 1/2/7 (same guy, different red flags). Physical addiction to alcohol is Scary. Nothing can come between that person and their alcohol, least of all You. I put myself in a very bad situation there, I will never do that again. Oh, and he drank Every day I knew him (he could not go one day without a drink) for the 2 years we dated/lived together. Another red flag - if they cannot give up their addiction, even temporarily...(I know it was codependent of me to get involved, I did not think it was a big deal either, the drinking). Living hell, living with an alcoholic and covering up for them.... I do not wish it on anyone. Worse than an N cause he was sometimes sweet and I felt bad for him.
Besides this lovely addiction, he also had an addiction to sleeping pills, pornography (couldn't hide it since he passed out in front of the TV nearly every night after I'd gone to bed, with the DVD still in the player), and possibly prescription drugs. Did I mention he was a doctor? So, heed those warnings. No one should have to give up their life for someone else's problems.
((((((write))))))) you will pick wisely, you're healthy. I was not when I got into that relationship.
pb
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Hiya all
Portia - hi chick, how are you?
I read that asked to give up either their best friends or their man (a woman's magazine reports), a big proportion of women would give up their man because they'd rather have their female friends to talk to (and they don't talk in the same way with their men) - which I found a pretty sad reflection of (heterosexual) 'relationships' today. Or maybe it's the women they asked who are sad. What gets me is that this stuff gets reported as though it's 'normal'. I don't think it's normal!
I agree with you, it is a sad reflection, but reading this does give me a warm glow inside that I don't feel like this with my H.
Write - I love what you said here want to take things slowly And why shouldn't you, plus any guy of value will do this. This is what my friend has done with her current boyfriend and she's happy because she knows she hasn't rushed into anything. Plus I also think this can show how a guy you meet is.... if you value me you will appreciate that I want to take things slowly and work with me on this. If you don't, you'll push me into a relationship before I'm really ready.
Pb - another one is you meet up on date 2/3 and he falls asleep! Yes I was with an alcoholic too, for a year. I know what you mean about the pornography also... I had British Telecom ringing me up to ask if I was aware sex line calls were being made from my phone. Can you imagine how embarrassing that is? £90 of calls in a month, in my name! When I confronted him, he said someone has been tapping into our phone line (We lived above a country pub that had no neighbours!!!). But you do wonder, maybe they are telling the truth, maybe I should give him the benefit of the doubt.
Write/ANS - you both picked up on something that I hadn't thought about... it was this I never really realised I could choose a life-time partner, I guess I sort-of thought you had to take what comes along I was with a nice guy for 3 years and then we split up, afterwards I really thought I'd had my chance and blew it, so then I had to settle for second best. You've cocked up, it's your own fault and you've got no one to blame but yourself! Thank goodness I know differently now, and my H is a million times better than the other nice guy I dated.
Dandylife - "Sorry, I don't respond to this. You're way out of line. Don't call again." This is brilliant... to me this says this is my boundary, don't cross it. Good for you.
Anansi - yes, like pb, because they think they can change them?
Take care all
H&H xx
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Anansi,
Re: why so many woman love and marry "oafs" (the unmoveable ones):
Maybe their dad/ father figure is an oaf and so they think this is the norm? I did.
DandyLife,
In the very short periods of time in my life when I've not been married (oh, for the sense to know when to say when!!) I seem to have been a magnet for the demanding, controlling, possessive sorts. I've dismissed the more vocal ones in short order, but there's another type that's gotten by me in the past and that's the man who is always there to help, or comes bearing gifts. When that possessive control factor is veiled behind a big smile and all manner of solicitation, it can be alot harder to identify. Wish I'd known then... but live and learn.
Pb, can't get the image of those elf shoes outta my head! Hugs.
With love,
Hope
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afterwards I really thought I'd had my chance and blew it
The 'A Fine Romance ' book goes into all this negative self-talk too: ' I blew it, I always do' type thing, it's a really good book for the details.
why so many woman love and marry "oafs"
I think there are many reasons Anansi.
Wen I first knew my husband we were at school, his mother was dying with cancer, my mother was involved with her boss at work and eventually left my father after a tumultuous few months rowing etc.
It was like we were the only kids going through all this trauma whilst everyone else was living the normals highs and lows of teen life, we were naturally drawn to each other for comfort and support and serious conversation.
He fell apart after his mother's death, and my father put me under increasing pressure after my mother's departure...he went on to become increasingly N and bury himself in his career whilst I developed more and more stress-related illnesses and increasingly severe mood swings.
Even now we are incredibly protective and supportive of each other going back 25 years, and that's why we married the 2nd time: I could not find another partner with whom I felt that incredible 'bond'.
Maybe if we'd had more receptive remaining fathers, or better relationships with our mothers, or access to therapy...we would have been healthier and stood a better chance of the marriage working out, but as it was, based on this enmeshment of two traumatised teenagers, it all got pretty messy.
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I never really realised I could choose a life-time partner, I guess I sort-of thought you had to take what comes along Confused or maybe I just wasn't ready to work on myself enough to be able to be confident that what I was asking for I was able to give too?
This was me, too. I never valued myself enough to think I had choices. The first man who wanted me, I stuck with--twice. In between husband 1 and 2, I never dated anyone else but husband 2. I always felt like I was trying to fit a square peg into a round hole in that marriage, as we never really meshed with each other, but I continued to tell myself that I was lucky to have such a nice guy, who would never do anything to hurt me, our children or our marriage. YIKES!! How stupid and blind was I?
Finally, on this divorce go-around, and only with the help of my therapist, I stopped feeling desperate to have a relationship, learned to love myself first before entertaining the idea of loving someone else, which finally allowed me to feel worthy of a good relationship. I went into the dating process with eyes wide open, and a long list of deal breakers and desirable traits, with the promise to myself that I wouldn't compromise.
I feel very blessed to have found someone who has all the really important traits I sought. He's certainly not perfect (he's a guy, so that goes with the territory--sorry Mud :wink:), but in all that really matters, he is perfect.
Anansi,
As to why so many women marry "oafs"--I would agree about the fixing part, and it probably has to do with their own fathers. That was certainly the case with me.
I would say it is the same reason they say so many men marry "bitches." They married their mothers.
I'm dying to hear the answer.
Brigid
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take things slowly And why shouldn't you, plus any guy of value will do this.
it's interesting, because if like me you've had a lot of rejection within significant relationships it's also a big trigger for the feelings of hopelessness and misery that has brought: doesn't matter how sensible it is, how much I sense someone really likes me- when a guy pulls away there's a 'here-we-go-again' feeling.
I'm learning to hold that and hug the abandonned baby and child and wife inside instead of projecting it out onto someone who wouldn't have a clue what they said or did to awaken a gulf of pain!
Reading the Judith Sils book has helped me name some of the processes in dating and it's given me a framework of what is NOTHING TO DO WITH ME! Her mantra is don't take it personally ( eg if someone doesn't fancy you, or it doesn't work out....eg extrapolating 'I'm unattractive' or 'nobody will ever love me' etc ) and don't start each relationship being hung up on the OUTCOME
( so why I asked the latest guy I like what faith he intends to raise his kids I'm not sure :oops: )
there's another type that's gotten by me in the past and that's the man who is always there to help, or comes bearing gifts. When that possessive control factor is veiled
one thing which I have really ahd to work through- this is the first long-term single period in my life too- is the 'not knowing'.
Despite everything, my ex is reliable with it, I always know pretty much what he will do in a situation, what to expect.
And he's faithful- no cheating or even looking. Pays all bills. Sensible. Successful and hard-working. Functions well in a crisis.
I see now how during all the pain and difficulties he was meeting the most basic needs which for me were stability and security. So that has to feel like a loss too when it ceases and instead I'm out there where I don't know what new guys are thinking, if they are seeing other people, how they will react to things...
Which I suppose adds up totally to take things slowly!
hey write - alcohol is not a big deal until you live with an alcoholic. Then, it's a major deal.
I don't even want to live with a drinker any more pb, if someone can't relax and have a fun time without a glass in their hand, I'm just not interested.
The friend last night is very cute, but when we were chatting the booze fumes were so strong and his witty banter was replaced after an hour or so by rather slow-witted grinning and one-word responses, and he awoke the whole of my maternal side with his intention to drive under the influence. After a couple of hours he'd gone from cute to unattractive...all because he was drinking.
heed those warnings. No one should have to give up their life for someone else's problems.
exactly!
On the list of qualities I would desire in a partner it was pretty high up: can manage their life.
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morning Brigid!
It really is useful to hear from the people who have broken patterns and found themselves someone ( dare I say ) 'normal' to love.
Not perfect...but not so messed up it's visible from outer space- to anyone but us!
Dog-walk....back later.
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Hi,
In the article I posted re: communication styles in romantic relationships, I found this link which appears to have some solid, helpful info on the topic of love, dating, etc.... from "Rinatta Paries ~ The Love Coach" (lol... I know, but it's actually a decent site)
There's a newsletter, tips, quizzes ... entertaining and educational.
Anyhow, if anyone is interested: http://www.whatittakes.com/
Here's a sample:
Let's revisit the idea of attracting your ideal partner and creating your ideal relationship. After all, that is what we all really want - relationships that are more love than work, relationships that are full of true connection. These are the ten steps to get you to that kind of relationship...
It's no surprise that step #1 is letting go of the past!
Happy reading...
Hope
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Thank you for participating in the "Why woman love oafs question." The "answer" (as heard on the radio) is because these guys can hold/contain what's thrown at them. These "unmovable" men don't react to a woman's projections. Their stubbornness serves as a kind of holding. If she were with a snag (sensitive new age guy), he may react with his feelings and things may get chaotic. Of course this "answer" is referring to dysfunctional relationships. Well, whaddaya think? It's a different perspective isn't it? I found this answer conflicting to me because it suggests to me to see something positive in my father's stone coldness towards my mother's paranoid hysterics. I am currently struggling with this answer as I bear deep pain of his ice violence towards me.
By Write:
"It really is useful to hear from the people who have broken patterns and found themselves someone (dare I say) 'normal' to love"
Amen.
"I don't even want to live with a drinker any more pb, if someone can't relax and have a fun time without a glass in their hand, I'm just not interested."
I'm so glad to read this because it gives me hope since I don't drink.
I feel sad because I want to reply and acknowledge more of what has been said in this and other threads.
I'm grateful to everybody here on this board who have shown connections and kindness to me.
Anansi
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Anansi,
"Ice violence". I am terribly sorry.
May I give you a smile?
I was thinking the reason women fall for oafs is that when they're big, oafs are often much better at bringing home the mastodon burgers.
(I don't want to admit that though.)
Hops
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I believe that before we can make a wise choice when choosing a mate we need to know ourselves well. One of the things that helps a relationship work for both parties is compatable character values. A person that values honesty to a high degree is not likely to be happy with a person that believes it is ok to cheat on some things. In my opninion this is more important than having common interests.
One of the things that I kept in mind when I was dating is: "Having no mate is better than having a bad mate or the wrong mate for me."
I think people forget that there is an abundant supply of single people of all ages and this allows a person to actuallly make a choice. When I was dating, there were times when I didn't have anyone and it caused me to think that maybe I should have hung on to that guy that I saw as unsuitable. Fortunately, I didn't hang on to that thought for long. Someone else always came along eventually. It seemed like it was feast or famine.
I know women, including my husband's ex-wife, that think because they are in their 50's there is no hope of finding someone so they don't even try. It just isn't true. I also know a man, my husband's best friend, who is in his 50's that thinks there is no hope. Now I know there is a woman in this community that would just love to be in a relationship with this man and one that would be suitable for him. Do I know who she is? No. Wherever she is, she is probably complaining that there just aren't any good men out there. All the good ones are married.
I think the "red flag" discussion is interesting. I will have to put my brain in gear and think of some.
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Dear Anansi,
At the risk of exposing some of my own stereotypical thinking and old fashioned notions... I've never thought of the sort of unmoveable man you describe as an oaf, really. To me, that's just what it means to be male... a "real man". I value the unshakeability of a man who won't take my projections and launch into orbit with me on emotional issues. As much as I want him to really hear my heart and try to understand, I don't expect or want him to become "female" for me. My own thinking about this springs from my acceptance of (yes, literally) the Biblical account of the creation of mankind, in which we're told that God said, "It is not good that man should be alone" and then proceeded to put Adam into a deep sleep, remove one of his ribs, and ~ poof ~ Adam looked at this Eve, created out of him, and said, "Whoa, man!!" ahem... anyhow...
((((((Anansi)))))) I'm sorry that your father has been a stone toward you. My Dad is no stone, but he definitely has an inability to deal with strong emotions. He uses humor (often inappropriately) to deflect anything that might threaten his commitment to avoid unpleasant feelings. I've tended to follow his example in that way. He's a lifelong drinker, too, and considering that he's been married to my mother for 58 years, I can understand that. People develop all sorts of ways to protect themselves from what they find overwhelming. More and more I'm finding that it's in acceptance that peace is found. I know that you and I don't believe the same, Anansi, but I hope you don't mind if I share this with you (by Amy Carmichael):
In Acceptance Lieth Peace
He said, "I will forget the dying faces;
The empty places,
They shall be filled again.
O voices mourning deep within me, cease.'
But vain the word; vain, vain;
Not in forgetting lieth peace.
He said, 'I will crowd action upon action,
The strife of faction
Shall stir me and sustain;
O tears that drown the fire of manhood, cease.'
But vain the word; vain, vain;
Not in endeavor lieth peace.
He said 'I will withdraw me and be quiet,
Why meddle in life's riot?
Shut be my door to pain.
Desire, thou dost befool me, thou shalt cease.'
But vain the word; vain, vain;
Not in aloofness lieth peace.
He said, 'I will submit; I am defeated.
God hath depleted
My life of its rich gain,
O futile murmurings, why will ye not cease?'
But vain the word; vain, vain;
Not in submission lieth peace.
He said, 'I will accept the breaking sorrow
Which God tomorrow
Will to His son explain.'
Then did the turmoil deep within him cease.
Not vain the word, not vain;
For in acceptance lieth peace.
With love,
Hope
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I find the whole discussion about Manly men and New Age or Renaissance or however you wish to term them men, to be fascinating. I have read and heard several interviews recently, that women have decided now that they would prefer to have a man who is confident and probably somewhat of an "oaf" to one who has five different hair and skin products and dresses in designer jeans, but who might also be "sensitive" and enjoy talking about his feelings.
I think the same could be said for what men want in a woman (at least one they would choose to spend their life with). They want her to be confident and comfortable with who she is, but still be a girly girl, who cares about having sex appeal, when it is appropriate, and can lean on her guy for support when necessary, without feeling weak and needy.
I believe that we were made differently for a reason. I think there has been too much effort to make us generic and homogeneous. There will always be men who have more feminine traits and women with more masculine traits--and they won't always be homosexual. But to try to expect those traits to come naturally is mostly going to be unnatural for the opposite sex. We should embrace the differences and find a way to coexist peacefully without trying to guilt the other side into our way of doing or thinking about things.
Just my 2 cents, for what its worth.
Brigid
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Hi H&H :D, I’m okay, thank you. I hope you are too….?
Anansi,
I hope what I’m going to say isn’t ‘too much’. Your post got me thinking.
Thank you for participating in the "Why woman love oafs question." The "answer" (as heard on the radio) is because these guys can hold/contain what's thrown at them. These "unmovable" men don't react to a woman's projections. Their stubbornness serves as a kind of holding. If she were with a snag (sensitive new age guy), he may react with his feelings and things may get chaotic. Of course this "answer" is referring to dysfunctional relationships.
Maybe the question – why women love oafs – kind of skews the answers? If the question was – why do they stay with oafs – the answers may have been, they stay because they choose to, they get something from the relationship.
I felt ‘brought up short’ by the idea of dysfunctional relationships. In a way, these relationships – call them co-dependent or whatever – are they actually not functioning, or are they functioning in a way that meets the needs of those involved? We (those involved in the therapy/help movement) talk about dysfunctional as though there exists a perfect way to function, the perfect relationship (is this implied or am I seeing things wrongly?). The thing is, people aren’t perfect and relationships can help people balance out the excessive parts of themselves, or they can offer a way to get needs met (think of the relationships which operate on the basis of one partner being the ‘parent’ and the other the ‘child’). Because something is the way it is, is it wrong? I’m not sure any more.
Well, whaddaya think? It's a different perspective isn't it? I found this answer conflicting to me because it suggests to me to see something positive in my father's stone coldness towards my mother's paranoid hysterics.
Well, people generally aren’t all bad or good, black or white? Perhaps there was something positive in that relationship. Perhaps your mother’s behaviour in some part caused your father to become colder? I don’t know. I guess they both found a way of staying together. My mother and stepfather found a way of staying together and in retrospect, my stepfather’s cultish control-freakery, whilst it had a rotten effect on me, actually stopped my mother going off the rails. If she had of done, I don’t know what my life might have been like, possibly worse than it was (as she would have had custody of me). Can you imagine what your life may have been like if your parents had separated and you’d stayed with your mother? (Better, worse, different?)
I am currently struggling with this answer as I bear deep pain of his ice violence towards me.
I’m sorry and sad that you are bearing that pain. The way I see families, children feel as though it was all one big relationship, all entwined together. I guess parents see it differently. There are several relationships and the one between the parents is really nothing to do with the child. How the parents relate to each other pre-dates the child; the child is a pawn in the game if you like, but not the cause of the game. How your father related to your mother is separate to his relationship with you; you are separate to ‘them’. I don’t know but I guess your father – and mother – didn’t see ‘you’ at all; I imagine they were too caught up in the game of their relationship, and you were in the crossfire, used and abused and not able to be a separate self. I’m projecting somewhat, this is my experience. Your bear the deep pain of his ice violence and that is awful. His ice violence served a purpose with your mother: unfortunately he did not know you and gave you similar treatment. It’s sad that he didn’t know you, for it is plain to me that you are not like your mother. I imagine growing up in such a family caused you to become an exceptionally sensitive (in a good way) and empathic person – qualities which aren’t too valued in our societies but which some will value immensely. I value them immensely.
Gosh I don’t know what or why I decided to type all this. I guess it’s about me as much as about your words Anansi. I wish your pain to lessen.
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Portia,
Your quizzical and consistent compassion, clear-eyed and unfooled, is wisdom, imo.
Somehow your childhood took you toward empathy and a capacity to hold things in a clear light.
To have trust that uncertainty holds compassion...I can't say it right but I am so glad you went so deep in answering Anansi's post.
Hops
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Hops....thank you so much for your kind, generous words which you didn't have to say, which you chose to say....and your time to say it, thank you for your time and attention....(gulp). Hey, intimacy alert! :o :D 'clear light' sometimes it feels so, sometimes I know it isn't.
Anansi, I hope what I've said is okay with you, because I often do this - get into a point - and think, what if I've gone 'too far', what if it's too much too soon....but that's pre-judging your ability to think for yourself and therefore somewhat ....controlling/superior..so I let it go and think: you can think for yourself, we all can, I trust that!
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So- what do you do if you start the dating and somewhere it becomes unravelled and it's not working out?
At what point do I move on from something, I'm not talking 'dealbreakers' like violence or poor hygiene etc
What if it just isn't fun or you meet someone you like better or something?
I can sense I am really anxious about this, because I never did much letting go of love relationships until recently.
And even though my new friend wants to 'take things slowly' I sense until we actually 'take the plunge' and commit to a relationship I can't tell whether things will work on any level either...
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Write, I can so relate to that anxiety.
I sense until we actually 'take the plunge' and commit to a relationship
Here's my thought--challenge this assumption you've made and:
Clutch Judith Sills to your chest.
Remember that in many ways, your mind will rationalize an urgency to move out of the present and "lock up" the future. That's the anxiety saying, I cannot tolerate the process of this relationship, so I must must must move it into a product.
It's so understandable. Who doesn't want safety?
But you have more strength than you realize.
Practicing presentness...say, for six months (you can allow yourself a personal deadline to re-evaluate)...but forgetting it until then so you are present...will help you, I believe.
(And this is my vicarious dry run. I haven't done it yet. But it's exactly what I need to do too,
once I venture out again.)
Lead the way, but just one day at a time!
Trust yourself. Trust time.
Hugs,
Hops
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Clutch Judith Sills to your chest.
I'd prefer to clutch him to my chest! but with an inbuilt get-out-of-commitment clause if things don't work....
Thanks H, I think I can see it more clearly now in my reaction to what you wrote.
You see, I am really enjoying the love process, even the ambivalence, always been difficult for me.
But I look at my ex and how tricky it's been to extricate myself kindly from him. That's the process I am not trusting and need to accept the 'one day at a time' maybe? Because I am already thinking 'maybe being single forever is better than making a big mistake and feeling responsible for someone forever?' ( alright maybe not forever, but a really long time...)
What do you think about the process when it's time to let go and you need to change a relationship or leave it?
Am I just paranoid about having another relationship like my ex?
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I'd prefer to clutch him to my chest!
:lol: :lol: (thank you, hee!)
but with an inbuilt get-out-of-commitment clause if things don't work....
You are SO conscientious. You are honorable.
I think all you need to do is tell the truth.
And don't don't don't (im never-pushy ho) don't make a commitment prematurely.
Tot it up, hon. How long have you been involved? Is there some law that says that in less than a year (do I remember correctly less than 6 months?) -- we're supposed to know?
I think (not from any successful experience yet, just the stacks, nay, mountains, nay highways-to-heaven, of relationship books I devoured after I hit bottom) that:
--you are feeling completely understandable ambivalence and anxiety
--this can be part of getting close to someone
--what cures it is keeping your own foot firmly on the brake
--you need to accept that you are a GOOD person, and that the other person is receiving a GIFT because you are close to him, and that you deserve WHATEVER PACE IS NECESSARY FOR YOU.
Why wouldn't you be spooked about a new commitment? That means, it's too early to be focusing on making one.
Try to keep your radar on. Not in suspicion, in self-respect, self-love, self-responsibility.
You know you are not evil or bad to have finally called it quits with a marriage that could no longer breathe and grow.
There is no ball and chain awaiting you. You are allowed to have love, and to take time. You deserve to enjoy this.
The simplest thing, is to just say, I need to take a lot of time with this. Honesty works. Choices. Stepping forward, stepping back, consulting yourself, feeling how it feels, and asking yourself, what direction is feeling like a new way of loving myself? What direction is feeling like repetition compulsion or codependency?
You can ask in any little moment. They will add to a time when you know what to do.
love,
Hops
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Dear Portia,
I'm sorry for my very late reply. In fact, I felt moved that you wrote to me. No one has ever written a full letter to me in my life, so in one way, I'm moved and in another I feel myself to be an alien from Pluto as I am reminded that I'm so cut off from people. You've offered me a hairline crack, hence my head says hope for me that one person thought enough of me to write out a whole letter to me. You wondered why you wrote to me. I appreciate you saying this because it lets me feel that you sensed something in me that needed a deeper connection. I don't want to expect that things will get better for me, so I remain a present gratitude for your writing to me. I'm really in God's hands these days, I've only ever known the valley of darkness. I only have one photo of me as child and you can't imagine how sad I look in it.
I still fantasize that I'll be saved by one woman who can see me and love me. I know I need to let this fantasy go and I'm trying.
Thank you again for thinking of me and sending me your blessings and love.
Anansi
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I only have one photo of me as child and you can't imagine how sad I look in it.
Dear Anansi,
All the mother in me wants to hold that small sad child and give him so much love.
I hope I never see a sad child's face again without stopping to smile.
Now you are older you can learn to love yourself and others, and create your own photo albums.
~Write
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I'm grateful that you wrote back to me Write,
After I read your first affirmation, I teared. After the second, I nodded in warrior admirmation by your initiative. After the third, I got an insight as to why I don't take photos. I haven't owned a camera in over 15 years.
If I can get through this valley (head nodding in 'how incredible that would be'), you all will truly have been part of a miracle.
Anansi
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I haven't owned a camera in over 15 years.
first gift to self?
Recovery comes in stages A, it takes a lot to overcome not having those special first relationships. But it happens.
I mourned the lack of mothering/ parenting in my early life for years, then having my own son gave me so much satisfaction, as I played and hugged with him it was so healing to me too, and I paid special attention to each flower in the path, each nursery rhyme, each story...each new thing fed the tiny child inside me too.
Now more years later I work with alzheimers patients. So many of them believe they are my parent and I am often awed by someone's arms around me, a whispered 'I love you' from nowhere from someone who doesn't really talk much, the touch of someone straightening my clothes or smoothing my hair. Unconditional love.
Life has this amazing way of giving us what we need even if it's in a time and place we don't expect!
So don't think if I get through this, think when.
~W
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Life has this amazing way of giving us what we need even if it's in a time and place we don't expect!
Yes, this is so true. The secret is to recognize it when it comes and to be willing to accept it. The specific things that should have happened, but never will, have to be let go of on some level. It is not going to come in the exact form we have waited for all these years. And maybe that is a good thing. What we have been waiting for are things we needed way back when. We are different from that person now. Sure, the young one is still inside. But many layers of self have been added since then. We have grown and changed! In spite of ourselves. It was inevitable. So, when it comes to us, the things we need, they will also be different from what we expected. We must be able to see it and accept it.
I like your examples, WRITE.
PP
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Dear Anansi,
fully-fledged board member, welcome and valued contributor (that’s how I see you right now, how do you see you?)
Please no need for explanation about when you reply. There’s no standard to live up to I don’t think. Anytime is a good time.
Did I think of you enough to write to you, or did I sense something in your post, something that sounded like you wanted a hand – I think it was you thanking people here for their kindness, actually, that alerted me, as though you were planning to go away, somehow. You are welcome here and you can stay, you have a place, a space, to be you.
Gratitude. The thing is, I chose to write to you because of what you’d written: you had an effect on me and you therefore have an individual influence that perhaps you don’t see? Perhaps you might imagine that you’re alone and not seen, when in fact, I’d bet quite a few people see you.
I'll be saved by one woman who can see me and love me
It’s quite possible this could happen. But you might have to ‘catch her eye’! Are you looking at the women who might look back at you?
If I can get through this valley (head nodding in 'how incredible that would be'), you all will truly have been part of a miracle.
Anansi, there’s no ‘if’ as Write said. ‘If’ is not an option, it’s a non-option, if you see what I mean. ‘If’ is simply maintaining the status quo, ‘if’ doesn’t make any changes, even tiny ones (like smiling at the female who gives you the grocery bag etc). Tiny steps often yield big results, changes in attitude. I imagine you feel so alone, and so many other people feel so alone too, all around you, not seeing each other. There is a chink of light out there but it needs seeking out, I believe that!
Miracles, hey, miracles take a while, the impossible a little longer. You control your brain Anansi, and that’s an incredible and wonderful organ you have at your disposal. You can change your brain, you need to want to and not resist. ‘If’ doesn’t exist. Right ‘now’ exists!
What would help you most, right now, do you think?
Hope you keep posting, as and when you want to, no pressure, no obligations here.
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((((((((((Anansi))))))))))))
I wish I could express how sorry I am for what you have been through, but somehow I don't think it will come through here because I can't find the words to express it.
After the third, I got an insight as to why I don't take photos. I haven't owned a camera in over 15 years.
I would love for you to buy a camera.... so you can take photo's and create yourself some happy memories. Not necessarily with people, I love photo's of hills, of nature, of pets etc. Maybe it seems a long way off to do this at the moment, but maybe one day hey?
(((((((((Write)))))))))
This leapt out at me....
What do you think about the process when it's time to let go and you need to change a relationship or leave it?
Am I just paranoid about having another relationship like my ex?
When do you need to change a relationship or leave it? When you're not happy, when you don't look forward to seeing your new friend (and I'm not thinking a one offs, but say each time you arrange to meet, you have a feeling that you're bored etc, or you don't enjoy their company), when you're needs aren't getting met.
Love H&H xx
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when you're needs aren't getting met.
That's now then! ( smile )
Thanks H & H. I guess I am finding it quite painful to separate, it's been a difficult couple of weeks, but tonight things are sorted out and looking better.
I can worry about new relationships when I've finished dealing with the emotions from the old one!
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Dear Write, PP, Portia, H&H,
Thank you!! I teared while reading everything, especially when Portia noticed and said, " ... as though you were planning to go away, somehow." This is the most love I've ever received in my life!!
I vividly acknowledge and appreciate being noticed, seen and cared for here by you.
"first gift to self?" (Write) - Thanks for this highlight, I'll let myself by open to it.
Later,
Anansi
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(((((((Anansi)))))))
One sure way of killing a baby is to ignore it. Being ignored - feeling without worth, feeling unnacceptable - those are things nobody should endure, but I know people do, nothing is perfect.
I'm glad you're here: board / earth.
We all want acceptance and acknowledgement, it's only human, we can't happily exist without others. And I'm a partial hermit!
Gotta go.....later is fine and okay 8)
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One sure way of killing a baby is to ignore it. Being ignored - feeling without worth, feeling unnacceptable - those are things nobody should endure, but I know people do, nothing is perfect.
I often wonder what it was liek for me and my siblings as babies to have our crying ignored until it stopped.
Even now I never sleep in the dark- though I'm happy to wander around outside in the dark, I just hate waking up and it's dark and there's no one there.
And it's taken me years to feel secure with relationships, to trust that when people go away they still have feelings for me and will come back to me.
***
Last page of the Judith Sills Fine Romance book:
Fight the impulse to let the anxiety built into courtship turn you into a clingy pushy wimp. That wimp lives in all of us. He or she is not the product of some neurotic outbreak in your psychological undergrowth. Give that wimp a talkign to when he shows his face. Remember who you are and what you are worth. You don't have to run away from courtship or cling to it desperately, just because it occasionally brings your wimp to the surface.
Come to understand how your own fears of intimacy typically express themselves. You can reduce your obstacles to Commitment if they are front and center in your consciousness. Learn to pay attention to your romantic patterns. You'll get better at them.
Keep in mind that love is something that you build not something you find. Courtship is the process by which you develop love while you simultaneously handle your fears of it. You need its moments of distance as much as you need the process of attachment.
You don't need to have a perfect courtship. You don't need to have a perfect partner and you certainly don't need to be perfect yourself.
You will need to:
*Take a risk, confront a fear
*Love a real person instead of a fantasy, and
*Be good to yourself in the process.
If you are able to do all three, you are guaranteed a fine romance.
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(((((((((((((((((write)))))))))))))))))))
so so many kids and babies were raised by being ignored. I was left to cry apparently (I have no memory of it). We learn that we are of no value, that we are worthless, we learn that lie.
(((((Anansi))))), Write....no-one can supply that exact love we need so much, no-one except ourselves, and it is possible to love ourselves, it is. However, acceptance by others and knowing we are not alone in how we feel - that we are all together in this life - i think that helps enormously and is why I love it that we meet here. 8)
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do you think it was a common method of childcare where we grew up ( Portia and I are a similar age and raised in the same part of the uK )?
I remember other things which seem somewhat prescribed and unnatural now, the women refusing to nurse even briefly, trying to time feeding schedules, believing they could 'spoil' a baby with too much love or attention.
I talked to a health visitor once who had studied these things and she came to the conclusion it was the industrial requirements of the area, the women were going to work so the baby had to get into a routine and take a backseat early on.
Consequently they were rather 'hard' and unemotional.
When I had my son I found many of the nurses to be like this too. I told one of them off for being rude to me 2 days after he was born and she dissolved into fits of tears, turns out she had a 2 month old herself and had gone back to work. I was astonished, it was surreal sitting on my bed hugging a nurse who was meant to take care of me and my baby and couldn't because she was heartbroken not to be home with her own.
( she did give me excellent advice on nursing though- she was mixed feeding which anyone who hasn't done it tells you can't be done! )
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write, yes to an extent - the effect of reading too much Dr Spock child-rearing books.
I found this http://users.aber.ac.uk/asg/child-rearing%20of%20punjabis.htm , which while talking about some practices and ideas that i would find wrong, it does say this:
It is a well-established custom in Punjab that young infants, and even toddlers, sleep with their mothers or a mother-substitute. Indeed, very few mothers would contemplate putting a new-born baby in a separate cot in her room, let alone in a different room. As discussed earlier, babies are indulged to the point of being spoilt. A grandmother mockingly remarked: ‘ We are not like the Goras (whites)who after feeding the baby leave her in the upstairs bedroom -cry or no cry... In my family, if a baby is slightly ill the whole family is awake to comfort and support the young mother. A completely different Tarika (way of doing things).’
and this is a long one, but interesting, given the date!!
Tears before bedtime
29/11/04 by Margaret McCartney
Controlled crying aims to turn babies who are poor sleepers into good ones. But a new book suggests that the technique can be dangerous I SPENT THE first year of my first child’s life holding him. If I put him down, he cried. I was irritable and exhausted. I bought all the books and eventually, out of frustration and fatigue, I turned to controlled crying.
This, as described in Dr Christopher Green’s Babies!, aims to turn poor sleepers into good ones by leaving your crying child for increasing periods. “The aim is to let them cry for a short period of time, but not long enough to let them get upset or hysterical,” Green writes.
But I simply couldn’t do it. My boy seemed to be instantly upset when I left the room, and letting him cry when I could easily have comforted him seemed cruel. He cried, I cried. It felt deeply wrong to have my baby wailing for me yet not respond to him. Yet when all the “Gina” babies I knew were sleeping through for eight hours at a time, I was convinced that, as a mother, I was failing.
So I secretly took my baby back into my own bed, accepted that this was how things were, and planned my life around that instead. And, almost imperceptibly, things slowly got better.
As a GP I see lots of women who are having a hard time getting their babies to sleep and have resorted, as I did, to the controlled-crying technique. It has become apparent to me that for every controlled-crying success story, there are also lots of parents who admit that they have found it too distressing and given up. And maybe we were right to feel uncomfortable. The Definitive Child Rearing Book, by Margot Sunderland, is based on more than 700 scientific papers, and claims that the technique of controlled crying can be danger- ous. If you persistently leave a child uncomforted, ignoring their distress, Sunderland writes, it can result in brain changes that end up creating a neurotic or emotionally disordered adult.
Sunderland has been working with children and their families as a child psychotherapist for 20 years and is now director of training at the Centre for Child Mental Health in London. She feels strongly that we should be working with our parenting instincts more.
“For many years we have assumed that the child’s brain is robust. It isn’t,” she says. “Key chemical systems are not yet established after birth — and continued stress can damage, even shrink, part of the brain, the corpus callosum. Magnetic Resonance Scans show a direct relationship between early stress and these brain changes. We don’t yet know how much this will impact on a child in terms of emotional difficulties, but we do know that persistent, uncomforted emotional stress — including smacking — can make these structural brain changes.”
The scope of damage that Sunderland believes can be caused by this level of uncomforted distress is marked. She writes that “one in five UK children has or will have a mental health problem; 40,000 children and young people are taking antidepressants; 170,000 people a year, mainly teenagers, harm themselves in despair”. She feels that persistent distress as a child is a major cause.
“The key is cell death,” Sunderland says. “Persistent child distress can lead to enduring changes in the autonomic nervous system and alters the responsiveness of the child to stress in the future. Using controlled-crying techniques might seem to work, but we know that around the age of one, children start to be able to ‘bottle up’ their distress. I’m not saying don’t use these techniques, but I am saying that parents need to be aware of the cost. And there is a cost.”
While it isn’t possible to extrapolate some of the research that she cites — for example, the effects of stress on Romanian orphans, or studies of maternal separation in infant rats — to the controlled crying of well-cared-for children, it does raise questions about the technique.
Sunderland thinks that we should be more responsive and instinctive to our children: “Other mammals don’t want to separate from their children as we do. There are huge benefits from physical touch, which releases our natural opioids and oxytocin. These are key response systems.”
But what if the parents are exhausted and controlled crying is the only thing that seems to give them a break? Is this so wrong — can the “damage” become irreparable? “It is only persistent uncomforted distress that seems to be hazardous for brain development. However, there is biochemical repair if you pick up a child and soothe them.”
It is normal for babies to cry, says Asha Phillips, a child psychotherapist, lecturer at the Tavistock Clinic and author of Saying No — Why it’s Important for You and Your Child. “They need to cry from time to time,” she says. “But don’t let a baby cry for hours. The problem with controlled crying is that it is not always responsive to what the baby can manage. It is externally imposed by an ‘expert’ and not tailored to your baby. For some it works, for others it distresses them too much.”
Phillips doesn’t believe that babies cry because they are “trying it on” or because they are spoilt. “They are expressing the way they feel. It is crucial to listen to what the baby is saying. Crying is one of the ways he communicates. There is no single answer to the different cries. I believe that in certain circumstances it is OK to let a baby express himself by crying. Sometimes it can be his way of dealing with overstimulation, especially at the end of the day, the colicky time. His nervous system is raw and can be overloaded. Crying may be how he lets it all go, almost in a cathartic way. It can be his way of settling himself and self-comforting. At those times, parents trying to rock him or speak to him may increase his difficulties by overstimulating him and interfering with his attempts to recover. A crying baby is not a terrible thing, but an unresponsive parent can be damaging.”
Gina Ford goes further: “Babies should really cry only seldom or not at all. That is the whole point of my book — using a routine means that babies do not get into the situation where eating and feeding habits have gone so far wrong that you have to use controlled crying. Even then, I would advise controlled crying only as a last resort and where medical professionals have advised it. I don’t think that parents should be panicked by this research. If controlled crying works for you, that’s fine — it doesn’t make you bad parents.” There are lifelong positive effects on emotional development from children reared with tender loving care, says Professor Jaak Panksepp, a psychobiologist at the Falk Centre for Molecular Therapeutics at Northwestern University and author of Affective Neuroscience (Oxford University Press). However, he does not think the latest research means that parents who have used some controlled crying should panic.
“A few good cries within a loving environment seems unlikely to harm or permanently modify the develop- ing brain,” he says, “and perhaps it might even facilitate emotional intelligence, as long as the child is comforted soon after real distress begins with a brief period of holding, understanding and loving words, as opposed to ‘stiff-upper-lip-type’ advice.”
I know what it is like to endure motherhood as an exhausted, paranoid hell, and I would hate to think that this latest book was going to add to the stress of parenting. The key is to get in touch with our instincts. My children are now 4 and 2 and, it has to be said, join me under the duvet every night by midnight. But it feels instinctively right for me.
One of the best lessons I was taught at medical school was simple: if a mother is worried about her child, you should be, too. Doctors are taught that for a reason. The maternal instinct is potent and protective and we should use it, not ignore it.
The Definitive Child Rearing Book, by Margot Sunderland, will be published in the new year.
From: http://www.mentalhealthjobs.co.uk/news.html about half way down
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Fascinating, thanks for that Portia.
I have seen parents driven to distraction by this ( and other 'catch-all' parenting ideas ) whilst being told by well-meaning advisors 'if you just persevere it will stop'. My s-i-l had a very difficult birth and didn't bond well with her baby at first and controlled crying just made the child worse, but they persevered for months; eventually she slept in their bed and things improved. They received a lot of criticism though.
However, he does not think the latest research means that parents who have used some controlled crying should panic.
“A few good cries within a loving environment seems unlikely to harm or permanently modify the develop- ing brain,” he says, “and perhaps it might even facilitate emotional intelligence, as long as the child is comforted soon after real distress begins with a brief period of holding, understanding and loving words, as opposed to ‘stiff-upper-lip-type’ advice.”
yes, I think I was lucky, my son and I were very bonded even before birth and I always had a strong sense of when he needed me and when he needed to be left alone. There were times I put him down awake and he went to sleep and times he slept with me in my bed.
When his father and I separated he took to sleeping in my room again, dragged his little bed to the foot of mine, and after a year and a half I knew it was the time to send him to his own room which is where he sleeps now.
I think if you don't allow the baby to cry sometimes they become fearful, but ignoring a cry which is a need for you is a way to send the message that they are in some way abandoned. The best thing is for the mother to be supported and learn to build trust in her instinct regarding her child.
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Write
They received a lot of criticism though. Isn't that the worst thing? When you've been through all the problem, you've doubted yourself, you've asked for help and then - you find the solution and believe in it, and it works! - and what happens: folks can't wait (it seems) to criticise. Why is that? I don't know. Yes I do. They want to believe that they're right and you're wrong instead of thinking: it works for you, great. Same old ...stuff! Fear.
When his father and I separated he took to sleeping in my room again, dragged his little bed to the foot of mine, and after a year and a half I knew it was the time to send him to his own room which is where he sleeps now.
Maybe too personal Write, I'm thinking, why did he do that? Because he felt too worried to sleep alone, because maybe he thought you felt bad and was taking care of you? hey I don't even know how old he was. I feel so far removed from 'normal' sometimes that I can't imagine a little boy doing that; well, I don't have much experience of children, other than being one once, so I guess I'm constantly curious. On which note, I wanted to ask about being impatient (re Hops agnostic thread), just for feedback reasons. I just didn't notice the date there but generally, do you think I'm impatient? I've been pondering this and can't decide. I sometimes think I'm intolerant, but impatient, not particularly. Or maybe I'm impatient and actually not intolerant? ha! Too much pondering i think.
Child rearing. Some people still think it's okay to beat (and I mean beat) their kids here because they were beaten. Some people think it's okay to treat their kids as pets or objects and so on. But those fashionable ideas and too much book-reading.....my stepdad apparently told my mother to leave me crying so that I'd learn to stop (but that's what she says and I can't believe her) so...honestly, i think they were both quite mentally odd and somewhat lacking in education and the ability to know where to find new information and how to think about knowledge, like many from that area of the UK. They were different times when they grew up. i think if it's true what he said, he learn that from the way he was 'raised'?
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Hi Anansi,
thanks for that informative nugget. I must be the only one for whom this rang completely true. I married my husband because he seemed to be able to withstand all my tantrums. I was in a bad place, the wrong place to be selecting a life mate, but I also felt he could 'save' me in a way. In a way it worked. I got the chance to even out and stop worrying that no one would ever want to marry me. I got to have children before I was too old.
But I also was forced to muffle my real emotions, abandon any hope of being really intimate with someone, shut up about my issues and my past, and in hindsight, I would not do it again. I also realise that even if he was socialised not to react, internally he did have a reaction to the anger and insecurities I brought into the relationship. I got it out, but it did not vanish into thin air! Can you say, passive-aggressive?
Anansi, you are worthy of love and affection and friendship and caring. Just the way you are right now. You are receiving it right up on this board. And you are taking big steps to improve the way you cope with the world.
I would just take a step back from the idea that a woman can 'save' you. No one can save you. You can save yourself, and then you can be able to really be with someone and not have it based on desperation. I made this mistake and I'm here to tell you!
Plucky
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Maybe too personal Write, I'm thinking, why did he do that? Because he felt too worried to sleep alone, because maybe he thought you felt bad and was taking care of you? hey I don't even know how old he was. I feel so far removed from 'normal' sometimes that I can't imagine a little boy doing that;
he was let me see- 7 almost 8. And he did it at Daddy's too not just here. He said he didn't want to be alone.
Neither of us were too concerned about it, though I had a bit of a sleep issue all those months I needed unbroken sleep so sometimes I would sneak upstairs to his bed when he was asleep and sleep there.
We both recognised he is growing up and soon won't be our little boy, and it was sort-of nice to see his little hands and face as he slept and to know he was safe and comfortable.
do you think I'm impatient? I've been pondering this and can't decide.
I don't know, you've had a couple of little outbursts over the years but nothing excessive I'd say :)
I just picked up on your comment I think. Thinking about it now I wonder if you aren't a little weary of all the religious talk?
I would much prefer to be in a secular setting with G_d as an issue than a religious setting myself, because that was how it was done back home, how I grew up. People who were constantly preoccupied with religion were seen as obsessed. And some of them were.
I remember going to an evangelical church and someone turned to me and said in a rather manic way: 'The Holy Spirit sets things on fire'. I thought 'sounds dangerous' and didn't go again!
It was my friend's church and her daughter was dedicating her life to Christ. She hadn't been taught enough grace to thank people for their gifts and attendence though. They went off to start their own church somewhere later, I lost touch with them. I wonder what happened to them? they seemed a little bit mean-spirited as their religion developed, I liked them better when i first knew them and they were more human and kind people.
okay to beat
the truth is it's not okay to use violence. Words, withdrawal, aggression of any kind might teach them something but it probably isn't a good long-term lesson. I hear people justify violence against kids all the time but I can tell you from my experience it has never felt right once when I have slapped or yelled at my son. Never once have I been calm and rational and not angry and thought: oh yes, the right thing to do now is to hit or shout, it's always been an angry instinctive reaction and I have pretty much trained myself to stop it after 10 years.
I see it as if I don't have the self-control, why should he...
You can save yourself, and then you can be able to really be with someone and not have it based on desperation. I made this mistake and I'm here to tell you!
Another bit of Judith Sills fits here:
If you are having trouble finding someone with whom to begin or complete a courtship, I'd suggest you check yourself for an error in your orientation. You are probably making the mistake of looking to receive love from a proper source rather than to give it with a generous spirit.
You are screening the world to determine who might be worthy of your love. You decide that not very many other people are, a decision you refer to as 'havign high standrds'. When you do encounter someone who might inspire your love, you send a desperate message: Please love me back! Please think I'm enough! You have forgotten that it is better to give than to receive.
This is such a fundamental, universal error in thinkign that I can promise you one thing. If you focus on increasing the number of men and women to whom you are willing to offer love, you will eventually find a grateful receiver.
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Dear Plucky,
If I got it right, you said you gained some things (confidence, children) but that it cost too much (authentic self expression, intimacy, deeper healing). Is this approximately accurate?
"in hindsight, I would not do it again."
I understand. Thank you. And thank you for saying that I am loveable even the way I am right now.
In respect to you and in reverence to all that you've been through,
Anansi
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Dear Anansi,
Yes you got it right, and phrased so well. Only one thing. I did not, DID NOT gain confidence. All that happened, was that the issue of whether I would ever get married went away for a while. The issue of whether I was attractive or lovable? Still on the table, and now I had mainly only one person to get feedback from. And it was not coming. So actually, it was not good for my confidence. Just for the ticking biological clock and some stability. For a time.
thank you for saying that I am loveable even the way I am right now.
I did not say that. I said, just the way you are now. Exactly the way you are now. Not 'even' the way you are now. Not 'in spite of' anything. You are welcome. I'm just stating the obvious.
Plucky
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Hi Plucky,
Thank you. So if I got it right, you said the issues of desirability and martial status were "resolved" for that time being and that in hindsight, true confidence building was limited or blocked in developing due to limited feedback from spending so much time with one man? That there was concern or pressue over child bearing years and that this along with a need for stability were addressed at a high cost.
And you said that I'm worth love and friendship just the way I am right now.
Is this all right? Is there more?
Anansi
(if anything is off or missing, I'd very much like to know)
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Hi Anansi,
you are really listening closely! I'm not used to that. It feels funny, but good.
I actually posted to try to support you, not to blab on about me. So, I hope you are feeling ok. I do not read all the threads so maybe you have been posting elsewhere. I just don't want you (or anyone)to do what I did!
Plucky