Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Matthias43 on February 11, 2004, 04:38:42 PM
-
Hey,
If anyone is interested in a community that is oriented toward healing NPD itself, then please come visit us at www.journeytowardhealing.com
Please let me know what you think if you decide to visit... especially if you have been a follower of Vaknin and have anything to say on his behalf.
Thank you, :)
Matthias
-
The link didn't lead anywhere when I clicked on it.
I didn't know Vaknin had 'followers' - have you all set up a new religion??!
I know that many people seem wary of Vaknin- quite right too - an intelligent self-confessed 'sufferer' of NPD is still an N and is likely to damage the unwary (he says so himself!)
But I am incredibly grateful to him.
He wrote to me at a website I publish suggesting I might like to consider links to his material. The first time I saw his email, it seemed irrelevant to my content and I ignored it. However, I noticed it again later on and looked more closely.
And then I read the foreword to his book.
It rocked my world, shattered my walls, answered the pleas I had put out to the universe for understanding of my mother and her situation. It put the fear of God in me as I began to understand...and then it set me on a quest to find more mainstream material (understanding the narcissistic pattern, handling the self-absorbed, etc).
I suspect he stirs up a lot of professional jealousy and rivalry amongst the N population but I value the very narcissitic qualities that set him scurrying around the net to promote himself and his work - because without it I'd never have discovered what I now know (especially over here in the UK). And what I now know has made a huge difference to every relationship in my life, to my son's future, to my own serenity and self-respect and feelings of self-worth. Need I go on??
My view? Give the guy a medal!
My advice to N 'victims'? Read it by all means, just don't get involved.
My advice to Ns? a) He's not as influential in the world at large as you think he is and b) Don't shoot the messenger!
R
-
Narcissism, in the form of a personality disorder, can't be healed.
bunny
-
ANYTHING can be healed- in terms of personality disorder or mental illness. But part of many disorders is a resistance to change....big dilemma.
Sam Vaknin has hijacked the term narcissism to expand his own mental illnesses...he calls himself a narcissist but his bio fits a psycopath.
Many people's objection is simply- he has systematically made it impossible to find objective scientific material about narcissistic personality disorder on the internet.
-
Bunny,
I disagree. I'd really like to hear you go into detail about this.
Matthias
(This post was editted because personal attacks are not permitted on this forum--Richard Grossman)
-
Sorry guys. It's www.journeytowardhealing.org :oops:
Matthias
-
Matthias, I don't get why you think our Voiceless community of people who have been hurt by narcissists would be interested in the narcissist's healing? Are you implying that we are all narcissists as well?
Karin.
-
Yes there is a difference in being affected by narcissism and being a narcissist: for the narcissist in therapy or trying to heal that is a fundamental distinction, one you will need help with.
Narcissists or their relatives on the internet are now going to have to search doubly hard- other abusive people with personality disorders have taken over key phrases and definitions...who would have thought that a form of abuse would equal redefining a psychological condition..yet here we are.
Spam is a crime in the UK.
Soon pornographic email will be illegal worldwide.
One day hijacking information for personal gain will be illegal too.
Whoever you are- it doesn't really matter- just be kind, and if you need therapy- go find it.
-
Healing NPD? I was shocked to read the following. It reminds me of the studies of ‘feral children’: those kids raised by animals who are unable to learn language beyond around 100 words because their communication learning synapses have never grown. They’re physically unable to learn.
‘Why is it always about you?’ – Hotchkiss - Chapter one on shamelessness:
“For some children, this experience {of shame}, repeated over and over in the course of socialisation, is so crushing that they never quite get over it, and they spend their lives avoiding anything that makes them feel ashamed. Recent research in neurobiology* has shown that the developing brain is not yet ready to process the intense experience of shame at an early age when socialisation begins and that the lack of an emotionally attuned parent at this crucial time can actually stunt – for life – the growth of the pathways for regulating such profoundly unpleasant emotions.”
* Schore A N (1994). Affect regulation and the origin of the self.
Healing NPD = brain transplant? Anyone have an update on this research?
(PS. I've glanced at that site above. In The Twelve Principles of Attitudinal Healing (why is it always 12? why not 9 or 13?) number 11 says: "Since love is eternal, death need not be viewed as fearful". Anyone know what this means from a secular point of view? Is it implying that death is a state, rather than a simple event? Is it just sloppy thinking?)
-
I've talked to several psychologists about healing NPD, the therapist would try to find out what the NPD means to the narcissist and what behaviours are problematic to people around them. Often it would mean separating other issues too, depression, violence ( often verbal ) or substance abuse.
It would be a long painful process for the narcissist, and the therapist probably!
Anti-depressants apparently help a lot because they 'cushion' the pain of life and therapy.
There's an interesting article from the Psychiatric Times http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/p960235.html
about the reduction in narcissistic behaviours in some patients following therapy.
-
Thanks Guest that is an interesting article, particularly:
“The unimproved group proved to have had a higher level of pathological narcissism in the area of interpersonal relations at baseline, especially in their capacity to become involved in committed long-term relationships. This implies that severely narcissistically disturbed interpersonal relations may be the essential feature that defines patients with narcissistic personality disorder.”
I’d like to see their definition of “severely narcissistically disturbed interpersonal relations”. It might help understanding.
Overall it seems it’s a matter of degree of severity and the potential impact of environmental effects? (I keep thinking that if for example my mother had not withdrawn from society for 30+ years, had maybe continued working, she would be different now, more content.)
The cold science always leaves me wanting more, the rigour of the process seems to hold them back from being more interpretive in an intuitive way.
I guess the main problem could be in putting labels on to individuals in an attempt to see patterns in people, so we can ‘treat’ them. The labels have to be loose - otherwise we end up with completely unique problems which can only be treated one by one. Is that a terror we won’t admit to? That our problems are unique and we can never know another’s mind? Labels are so comforting! But I doubt many people here accept them whole-heartedly. Surely “the followers” :wink: on this board know that nothing is black and white?
-
...
-
Peronsality disorders can't be healed. It's like saying you can 'heal' diabetes or some chronic medical condition. I think this is simply not going to happen. Better to adapt to reality and figure out how you wish to deal with the personality disordered individual.
bunny
-
if we're using a medical model I guess a distinction can be made in the healing process between a cure and a treatment.
No, many things cannot be cured, that does not say that they cannot be treated ( like diabetes ) and anyone can learn adaptive techniques to lessen their personal pain and the impact of their behaviour on others.
The key is that the person has to want to change, and be prepared to face the reality of their situation. That is very difficult for a narcissist.
For people whose lives have been adversly affected by personality disorder, it is a separate issue their own healing or pain, and hard to be objective while still hurting.
-
I agree Bunny, using the word “healed” does seem wrong. But hey we’re just chatting here! let’s explore the subject and some of the grey areas? The article linked to above does suggest that diagnosing the severe NPD isn’t that easy and that some people diagnosed do change some of their behaviours due to environmental factors. Not that they are healed, but that they change sufficiently to cope with life and other people (and other people can tolerate them). But not in all cases. Which raises the question just how do you diagnose severe NPD for which there is no hope?
Anyway, as an aside I had fun reading Psychiatric Times. Thank you Guest for the link - it’s a new favourite!
...
http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/p030472.html - Dump the DSM! By Paul Genova, M.D.
Some excerpts:
“recent studies suggest that there is considerable overlap in the genetic vulnerability for schizophrenia and for bipolar disorders. What is the point of false precision when the genes themselves are imprecise?”
“The personality disorders section, categorical as it is, has been very effective in stifling nascent psychodynamic thinking among our trainees. Many of these "disorders" are extreme forms of various dimensions of normal personality.”
“The focus of psychiatric treatment should be a single diagnosis--a single person--in most cases,”
There is also a ‘counterpoint’ reply in defence of the DSM. Talk about ruffled feathers! Have you noticed how when people get annoyed they use over-long obscure words, as if the words justify their annoyance? Very funny. Some excerpts:
“Of course, there are many clinically important aspects of the patient that are not captured by this label, including the psychosocial context in which the depression developed, psychodynamic factors that might be perpetuating the depression and many others. We believe that most mental health care professionals can appreciate this main limitation of the DSM system, namely, that the DSM diagnosis provides only a part of the story.”
“We are the first to acknowledge that the DSM categories do not always jibe with the ever-evolving body of scientific research and that they sometimes conflict with clinical reality.”
(‘Conflict with clinical reality?’ So in other words, the DSM categories are sometimes wrong! Just like lawyers, these people should use Plain English more.)
http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/p010664.html
Some dilemmas of practising psychiatry by Paul Genova. This man writes in an accessible way and he just makes such sense to me. You get a real feeling that he loves his job, he loves people.
http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/p010646.html
Click above for an example of a shrink I wouldn’t want. What’s your diagnosis?
She refers to her career decisions as “I yielded to the siren's song seducing me” and “the big lights of Hollywood had beckoned, and I found myself on the path” (so she’s not responsible for her actions?) but: “It didn't take long for me to realize” and “a ‘media psychiatrist,’ a title I coined” (she is clever though!)
The best bit is: “It does not seem ‘psychiatrist-like’ to be in the spotlight. And you risk being labeled as having a narcissistic or histrionic personality disorder”.
:shock: Heal thyself?
-
Hey bunny,
You still haven't backed up your words. And I'm keeping it nice this time because we wouldn't want poor Dr. Grossman to have a real argument on his site. I'd just really like to hear it, rabbit, that's all. And could you also tell us what your issue with personality disorders is? Do you have a disorder, or do you know someone who does?
And also, bunny, I have a couple of things you might want to read and then get back to me about. First, "Humanizing the Narcissistic Style" by Stephen Johnson. And then, check out www.suite101.com and read about A.J. Mahari's borderline personality disorder site. THEN talk to me. It's Mlashtok@yahoo.com if you want to have a real argument.
And Portia, I think you need a little more experience and a little less booksmarts. I'd really like to see how Hotchkiss or whoever it was can back up that assertion about shame, since shame is a conceptual emotion in the first place. Maybe you should read some Shakespeare, and live up to your namesake from the Merchant of Venice ;-)
Alright ppls I'm out. Take care,
Matt
p.s. And don't you dare change this, Grossman. OR I'LL... OR I'LL.... no, I'm just playing. Later
-
Very tempting! But not worth it. Goodbye. :roll:
-
Matthias,
I don't take reading assignments from people. Goodbye if you've left in a huff.
bunny
-
You still haven't
poor Dr. Grossman
a real argument
I'd just really like to hear it, rabbit
I think you need
Thank you, Matthias, for the instructional post and concern for everyone's spiritual growth. This is a great refresher course in the kind of mature discourse we can expect from an N when challenged even only a little bit. The words are fine, but the tone and intention clearly are not.
For anyone who ventures into our community in denial of the effects of verbal abuse, we can refer them to this illuminating thread. Peace.
-
I'm responding to posts a while back and I started writing this without having seen the last few posts.
Portia - I guess you saw the documentary on feral children.
If you've got the stomach to read Dave Pelzer's books, you will discover someone who has overcome the worst of abuse. A story of hope - ultimately.
...a child brutally beaten and starved by his emotionally unstable, alcoholic mother: a mother who played tortuous, unpredictable games. Dave had to learn how to play his mother's games in order to survive...
When he was allowed the luxury of food it was scraps from the dogs' bowl. The outside world knew nothing of the nightmare played out behind closed doors. But throughout Dave kept alive dreams of finding a family to love him, care for him, call him their son.
It took many years of struggle, deprivation and despair to find his dream and then to make something of himself in the world.
What matters is the motivation - and I guess that comes from personality, too.
So what makes one person unhealthily narcissistic but another, with the same experience, a success???
Being so quick to hit out and try to be hurtful towards others, Matthias, does not help your cause. It demonstrates that you are quick to feel slighted, that you react rather than think and then act, that you need to put others down in order to regain stature. It does not demonstrate willingness to learn, a desire to communicate and to grow. It simply reinforces perceptions about narcissism.
'Healing' does seem a strange word to use for recovery from a personality disorder - I can understand better the idea of healing the original wounds that led to the personality disorder. To recover would need great courage and the ability to stand having one's world turned upside down, inside out and back to front when the ego is really just too fragile.
Yes, I see the humanity in the Ns of this world. But do they see the humanity in me?!
One can see the humanity but not wish to risk being damaged by the inhumanity.
R
-
"Watch your thoughts; they become words. Watch your words; they become actions. Watch your actions, they become habits. Watch your habits, they become character. Watch your character; it becomes your destiny."
-- Frank Outlaw
-
Ok, I take your point, it wasn't very mature of me to argue in the way that I did. I do often write stuff without thinking of the impact it has on others... something I need to work on, my short fuse. You have my apologies if it hurt you in any real way.
But you might consider that I'm just a teenage kid in high school... not your spiritual guardian. And when it comes to narcissism, it really hurts when people like bunny says that healing is impossible. And I also wonder how you can give me an instant diagnosis, having never met me. Don't get ME started with the moralizing now....
Well, cya later,
Matthias
-
Matthias,
First, thanks for acknowledging your impulsive way of speaking that was mean to others. Second, we have no way of knowing you were a teenager unless I missed it in your first post. Third, I didn't think you had a personality disorder. I thought you were talking about other people who were narcissists. Fourth, it is highly unlikely that you have a personality disorder. That is an extremely serious mental problem - a psychiatric disorder. You are highly unlikely to fit into that category. A personality disorder can't be healed /cured but some people can get "better" to a small degree with intensive help lasting years. Few people with personality disorders have any motivation to change. That is part of the personality disorder. Fifth, I have already read Humanizing the Narcissistic Style and it did not convince me in the least that the personality disorder can be healed. If you think you have a problem with narcissism, you can absolutely be helped as you are still a teenager and I seriously doubt you have any personality disorder.
bunny
-
Matthias
I, for one, am confused by your last post. First, you invite everyone to a site about healing narcissism and have not explained why people here would be interested. Nor have you revealed why you are here, there, or anywhere. What are you struggling with, why are you seeking support? Why does it hurt when someone says NPD cannot be healed? (I'm not saying it shouldn't hurt, just pointing out that you haven't explained your presence here in a way that we understand or can easily accept).
It is logical to assume from your invitation to the N website, combined with your style of communication that you are at least flirting with symptoms of narcissism. Some of this can be explained by your age, I suppose. However, you seem well read enough and aware enough to know what a serious topic you are "playing" with. Offering up the fact, now, that you are a teenager is, to me, just a maneuver to avoid taking responsibility for this communication. It just won't wash here.
The point of this community, IMHO, is to seek growth and offer support to others. People here will offer up their stories and are ready, indeed looking for, feedback and advice. This is a source of growth. If you are uncomfortable with feedback you didn't expect, you might want to ask yourself why you feel that way.
If you are truly seeking support, not just attention, we would encourage you to do so and share freely. You might want to take into account who your audience is, survivors of narcissistic behavior. All of us reserve the right to feel uncomfortable with anyone's post and say so, in a way that is least harmful to others.
Best wishes on your journey...
-
Hey,
Thank you for your insight, and I mean that too. I do have some symptoms of narcissism, probably 3 or 4 of the 9 categories listed in the DSM. They may lessen as I grow up, we'll see. And my family is very difficult, especially my father who's very narcisistic, although he's never been diagnosed. So I can relate to many of you.
I actually thought this site was for both narcissistic people and non-narcissistic ones... sorry, guess it was my mistake. As for coming to the HealNPD site (which is for both narcissists and non-narcissists/relations) I never said that you had to be interested, it was just an invitation to have a look, since our site is still quite small at the moment.
Hope that explained some things.
take care,
Matthias
-
Matthias
I don't have any research, only anecdotal sources, to back this up. But the closer to your original narcissistic injury you get help & start healing the better prognosis.
Narcissistic traits too are problematic, even for people without the personality disorder, so you are right to pay attention and to learn to adapt.
Good luck.
I'm sure you will be welcome here so long as you respect others' perspective.
-
Its revealing and frankly scary as all heck to me that anyone would ask why a group of people who claim to be "victims" of Narcissists would not understand why another person would suggest this group learn about the fact that NPD can and most definitely be healed. I speak as someone who has been diiagnosed with NPD and just recently told that I no longer meet this criteria. Its likely that at one time I qualified on 9 out of the 9 criteria. Interestingly enough my therapist was once diagnosed with NPD and has long since been on a road of recovery. Empathy is a powerful thing. I was chatting about this topic with someone who works in what most would call alternative or holistic healing. He says that NPD and many other disorders are not "supposed" to be healed, but he sees it all the time. If you are looking for healing you can find it. If you are looking for reasons to remain stuck and bitter you can find that as well.
-
I speak as someone who has been diiagnosed with NPD and just recently told that I no longer meet this criteria. Its likely that at one time I qualified on 9 out of the 9 criteria. Interestingly enough my therapist was once diagnosed with NPD and has long since been on a road of recovery.
It strains my credulity that two Ns (one in therapy with the other) are now healed of narcissism. Your therapist is on the "road of recovery" from a personality disorder. Is he the one who told you that you no longer meet the criteria?
bunny
-
Bunny,
Do you have some investment in wanting to believe that N's CANT possibly be helped? Because it certainly sounds that way...
Matthias
-
I'm now friends with my husbands psychologist. This psychologist is no lightweight. He is a Professor and Head of the Psychology Dept at a huge teaching hospital. He unequivocally told me that people with NPD once professionally diagnosed can be treated successfully, if they wanted help. Not with medication, but with psychoanalytical therapies. He is working with my N Husband. I am seeing some improvement. But then my husband is sick even of himself, has faced a few possible total-loss situations and is now very willing, where as he wasn't 2 years ago.
Good luck
Guest
-
Thank you Portia, I appreciate what you said. It is just hard for me, with my narcissistic issues and all, to come online and be bombarded with all these different viewpoints and sources of information - first of all I'm told that everything's hopeless, then I find a site that's trying to heal it, then people are condemning "Ns", then people are reassuring me that I'm young and it's not all over... and during none of this do I have any idea where I really fit into the picture. I'm still 18, and reading some of this stuff makes me believe I have something that's equivalent to a terminal cancer diagnosis. It's scary!
It does bother me though that anyone would label another human being as being completely hopeless or "doomed." That's pretty low in my opinion, and speaks more of the problems of whoever wrote it than of any objective truth. As for the psychoanalytic psychotherapy and that post - yes it overdid it a bit, but I think there was something there. If you ever wanna read something more about the subject, take a look at James Masterson's "The Emerging Self." He has successfully treated people with narcissistic disorders.
Well I g2g now.
Take care,
Matt
-
Hi Matt - (Matthias? A reader of Redwall, perchance??)
If you're a teenager, you're being introspective. That's what you do when you're in your teens. You're trying our various 'personas', you're testing out the water, you're being you (and it's very confusing).
This too will pass!
I have no doubts that narcissism has nothing to do with where you are in life just now.
One thing you could do which would help you get a better response from the people on this forum is to 'own' the thoughts and feelings which you are trying to express. You are talking about narcissism or NPD 'in general' and you are receiving confusing and conflicting answers because people are giving your their response to different kinds of narcissism as THEY have experienced it, they are giving you answers from the stage at which they are in the long road to recovery - and none of it's particularly relevant to you.
If you own what you fear and what you want to find out (eg I am 18 and I wonder if I have NPD and if I have, can I get better) then people can respond more accurately.
I wrote this elsewhere and there may be something in it that may help...
I suggest we forget about labels and just try to live an honest life. Trust more, but learn to be tougher, more resilient, too. Keep our head up, be proud! Know our boundaries so they don't get invaded - psychologically, mentally or emotionally. And be brave enough to face the consequences of being 'accurate', having spent time and energy uncovering and speaking the truth.
With any luck, in a couple of years' time. you'll be so busy having a life that you'll have forgotten all about the whole concept of narcissism.
R
-
I'm now friends with my husbands psychologist.
This is a serious boundary problem and is unethical.
bunny
-
Matthias,
First, I'm not talking about you. I don't think you have NPD. Second, I don't think you've been reading other people's experiences on this board. If you had, you'd realize how incredibly pervasive and destructive a personality disorder (an actual one) is. These are not healable....sorry. It does not mean the person is "doomed." It means they and their families, have to figure out how to deal with it, as they would deal with any problem.
bunny
-
Bunny, what you say is fair enough as a general rule about someone being or becoming friends with their family members psych. But it isn't an absolute. Explanations aren't necessary here, you generally offer very sound advice, but I wish to respond to you Bunny.
I'll not respond to that person who obviously has a serious rage problem. Who will no doubt says, more "lies lies lies", to support this rage, and doesn't even know there is a huge difference between anger and rage. I eventually concluded that rager was 'PUI', Posting Under The Influence.
Bunny, is it possible that even psych's have wives and family, and their wives have family and have friends? What if a member of a particular psych's family has become close friends with someone who has a problem with a spouse with NPD? What if this psyche is willing to have a go? Would it be unethical for that psych to offer assistance? Especially if that psych has some experience in the area. I think it'd be unethical for him to discuss personal details about the therapy with the me, and inappropriate for me to ask. But not unethical to become friends in the context of the social affiliation and connection. And I don't believe any psych worth their salt would violate their own particular set of ethics by disclosing private matters anway. If this psyche does exist, and is not just a figment of my imagination, and if his wife has become a close friend of mine, and that's not just a figment of my imagination either, then why would it be not okay to become friends with him too. Especially if we do have other areas of interest that via a charity organisation that bought our lives together in the first place. Sometimes my supposed 'imaginary psyche' does inquire and ask me if I'm noticing any positive adjustments or changes with my husband. And that's okay, surely. Part of me feels it's a waste of time and irrelevant responding to your judgement Bunny because our lives and circumstances are all so unique. I consider myself extremely fortunate that fate connected us with these people and bought our familes together. I feel that rote blanket statements often sound okay on the surface but often lack careful thought and consideration. Maybe you too will shout "lies lies lies", although goodness knows why. It just soooo doesn't bother me because it doesn't alter the truth. But I'm interested to know if in the light of this, you still think that it's unethical, cause I sure don't and neither do they. I just consider us fortunate that fate smiled on my family by bringing such caring and giving people into our lives. They're out there, contrary to what we learned from our parents.
Matthias, good luck once again and I admire your grit.
Guest
-
Hi all,
I just gotta jump in and second Bunny's opinion about boundaries. Sure, there might be extenuating circumstances as outlined above. But I am not convinced...sorry! :( The case stated above reads as convoluted and defensive and, at times, self-contradictory. If one agrees that Bunny offers sound advice generally, enough said. But Guest, you go on to argue your particular exception and then state doing so is a waste of time. All in the name of turning the general rule upside down to justify your situation. Which I still don't have down quite clearly.
I was at a small party where the host's therapist was there. It seemed indiscreet. A standard question I ask I don't know is "how do you know the host/ess?" She seriously stumbled over this question. I wasn't exactly prying. Her interesting response was "I'm glued to him". Someone else volunteered the information later, which made it all the more awkward.
I have met more than one psychologist that has serious boundary issues themselves and have to be reminded that one doesn't broach sensitive issues casually in passing. So the fact that your newfound friend doesn't have a problem with it doesn't convince me it's okay. I'm sure these folks are very nice people. It's a matter of priorities, professionalism and yes, I would say ethics. How could the psych maintain any objectivity?
Anyway, how does your husband, the patient, feel about these relationships? If I had a problem with paranoia (Ns often do, IMHO), I wouldn't be helped by knowing my spouse is having coffee with my shrink. Conversely, I would also feel uncomfortable talking with my wife's friend who offered to "have a go". Another option the psychologist/friend has is to refer the friend's husband to a valued and respected colleague. Yes, there are lots of nice people out there and the psychologists can find friends who are not related to their patients...
My two cents, anyway. Best, Seeker
-
Bunny, what you say is fair enough as a general rule about someone being or becoming friends with their family members psych. But it isn't an absolute.
There is no explanation that a psychiatrist (or any other therapist) can give for this. They aren't supposed to socialize or have friendships with the client's family. It's unethical.
Bunny, is it possible that even psych's have wives and family, and their wives have family and have friends?
Of course they have friends. However their friends can't be the family members of the clients. Those people are excluded for ethical reasons.
What if a member of a particular psych's family has become close friends with someone who has a problem with a spouse with NPD? What if this psyche is willing to have a go? Would it be unethical for that psych to offer assistance?
It depends on whether the psychiatrist knows the person and her spouse socially.
Especially if that psych has some experience in the area. I think it'd be unethical for him to discuss personal details about the therapy with the me, and inappropriate for me to ask. But not unethical to become friends in the context of the social affiliation and connection..
It is unethical for a psychiatrist to be friends with the spouse of a client. If you aren't the spouse, that is more of a gray area. It doesn't matter whether the psychiatrist would discuss the case or not.
I know you'd like to be an exception and you have reasons why it's "okay" for this friendship. Anyway it's not your problem, it is the psychiatrist's problem for crossing professional and ethical boundaries.
bunny
-
Yeah, thanks bunny for replying. The friendship I have is I suppose primarily with his wife, so maybe I need to discuss this with them. It's a bit tricky, having zero to do with him I mean. His wife and I became friends a few years ago volunteering our time for the same organisation and now have a lot to do with each other. Anyway, I sort of see your point. But no matter, he's not young and I pray that the guy has a lot more years left in him. He's got a good heart.
Anyway thanks
Guest
-
Seeker
I'm uninclined to answer any of your questions. Bunny objected to something in my post and generally, I said generally not always, I find the advice solid. I wanted to test bunny's opinion by exposing and revealing more of our circumstances, because I do mostly respect bunny's input here, particularly the economy of speech. It's very Ockham's Razorish, "It's is vain to do with more what can be done with less." I admire this tremendously in bunny. I didn't and haven't rejected what bunny said. I said maybe I need to talk about it with them all. That is a completely different position to where I was standing before I had this communication with bunny, so I've shifted ground. That's it, what happens now is my business.
After the unsuccessful attempt at denigrating and abusing me by the board-rager, (you know like road-rage) at the top of this page who seemed to not only thoroughly enjoy their rage and being abusive, and called me a liar and an N, I hope you understand that I'm on my guard. I imagine rage is better than sex for this person, and can see her after venting lying back calmly smoking a cigarette. So when I was reading your opening paragraph, which felt to me more like a critical judgement not really connected to the topic which I posted to, and then reading all your closing questions which were I felt peppered with suppositions, and I'll risk being wrong here and say, I sensed a hint of the same coming from you. So it's 'No comment' to your questions. Sorry if I am misreading the tone in your opening paragraph, but I didn't sense any understanding from you at all of what I'm about , so I'm going to go with my gut instinct here and assume that you're looking for a fight. If you're genuine and you've got an N in your life then you'll understand how serious an issue the actual post topic is for my family. Is their healing, help, treatment for NPD? It's not just a sports topic for those with nothing better do or who are so angry at the world they want to hurt just anyone. Hopefully you won't take offence at me telling you how this made me feel and if I'm wrong you have my deepest and most sincere apologies.
Guest
-
Maybe it's a shared British sense of humour, Portia - but you had me 'laughing in the aisles' there as I read your last post (and not at the expense of any individual either).
You know, Guest, what I find difficult about the posts you make is that -
1. To my mind, you seem to have missed the point of most of the posts to which you have responded (negatively?).
2. You don't seem to see the humour in the posts you read and you react to them, shall we say : in a serious way (but it comes across as a put down).
3. In fact, 'Guest' appears to present herself as such a cardboard cut-out of an 'N' that I wonder if she's real. At one stage I felt that I could have gone down a DSM list on narcissism and checked off just about every one of the items off against the posts that she's made - are you just having a game with us, Guest??? Or testing out the narcissism that's been perpetrated on yourself to see how we handle it in order to learn from us??
If you're not having a game or testing, may I suggest that a little more awareness of your own actions may bring you a more positive response from the people posting on this forum (if you would find that helpful).
I have my own 'N' traits - and I know that when I get all 'hoity toity', on my high horse, all superior and 'knowing' that I've 'fallen off the wagon'! :wink: I think those 'N' traits were a gift from my mother. You live with one, have to survive one, and you become one. That happens for spouses of Ns as well as ACONs.
The thing that saved me and made my life better was marrying a man who, although having his own N traits, had many non N traits, who gave me a kinder way of thinking about the world (and then a kinder way of thinking about myself) and finally led us both to discover 'abundant thinking'.
I moved from YOUR FAULT to nobody's 'fault' and, following my own path, discovered that :
"Everyone is doing their very, very best - even tho clearly they aren't"
Think about it. It gave me a way to understand my own son - and a way of handling the hurts that other people give us on a daily basis (which we receive just because, in our modern lives, we're brushing up against busy semi-strangers all the time) as well as a way of handling the frustration of dealing with people like my mother.
The people I love best in life are the ones who are honestly forgiving. They are always happy people, they make me feel better about myself, I strive to do better for them, and I end up being 'just great' in their eyes. And the results for everyone is always 'abundance'. The closed-in ones give out sh**, get sh** back and end up with sh**.
I think that the forgiving ones are probably the ones who see 'half full' and plenty of cake for everyone. The closed-in ones are the ones who see 'half empty' and 'too little cake for too many people so I'd better grab mine while I can'.
I think many N victims see that there's plenty of cake but know that the Ns want it all and have given up hoping for their turn!!!
But it's OK to get and it's OK to give and it's also OK to give to get if everybody's honest about the deal. THe problem with Ns is that they can't do any of that without manipulating the hell out of everyone else.
R
-
Rosencrantz, yes I know Redwall very well. Used to love it when I was in my early teens not so long ago. My family is English, but we live here in America for the time being.
Bunny, still hiding in your burrow I see? Sorry, I couldn't resist... because I'm still wondering whether you have your own issues or you have an N in your family, or what else would cause you to think/write the way that you do. And I still disagree very strongly with you when you say that healing is not possible. That is a dark and hopeless thing to say really, and I wonder what it is inside you that makes you view another person like that.
Matt
-
Matt,
I will always speak out against the bad idea of giving people false hope about their parents and spouses who are PERSONALITY DISORDERED. I think it is irresponsible to come on a board of N-survivors and tell them to read the writings of a group of "healed" narcissists. If you want to insult me, go ahead. It only makes you look bad.
bunny
-
The friendship I have is I suppose primarily with his wife, so maybe I need to discuss this with them. It's a bit tricky, having zero to do with him I mean. His wife and I became friends a few years ago volunteering our time for the same organisation and now have a lot to do with each other.
This psychiatrist has already justified the friendship to himself. So he will only reassure you that it's okay. As I said, he is the one crossing boundaries. You don't have to do anything.
bunny
-
Dear Guest,
I'm glad to hear that you are responding positively to the awareness that relationships with therapist friends can be delicate. My post was simply there to agree with Bunny's position and state a few reasons why. My questions were also included not so much as to demand a direct response from you but to encourage reflection on why such an ethics rule might be required. I'll try to be more explicit next time.
As for the rest, this is a public forum. We have discussions so all can learn. Any moves to exclusivity or specialness or qualifications to participate are limited to "have you been damaged by a narcissist?" I can answer yes. My pain and story have been expressed in other threads, so I won't take the space here.
Guest, if I put myself in your shoes and had to read responses that challenged me directly, I would feel uncomfortable. It's what any of us do with that discomfort that reveals a little bit about our character. Just knowing that fact can make us all a little jumpy. We're all here to learn how to ask the questions of "what am I feeling right now?" "What just made me feel that way?" "What are the different responses I could have for feeling this way?" etc etc. Self-reflection in other words.
I can also understand why the tone of some previous posts might alienate some, esp. newcomers. And some newcomers seem to not be aware of the tone that comes across in their own posts. I say this not to provoke you, Guest, but to turn your attention back to your own style of communication (as Rosencrantz has). Portia is aware of her tone and has admitted to it in other threads, sometimes with hilarious results. The board held up a similar mirror regarding tone to Matthias on this very thread, with good results I think. (Thanks for hanging in there Matthias.) So... once all the swords and crowns are checked at the door we can be a pretty nice bunch and ask some pretty good questions.
I'm glad you & Bunny spoke up because the quality of therapist/patient relationships is really important. I hope we can all try to be receptive to all posters with all the various and wonderful voices they have and the point they have to make.
Peace, Seeker
-
What's in a name - quite a lot. Matt - your name bothered me a lot when you first turned up (something biblical, evangelistical, apocalyptical!). But when I realised your age - well, there's only one Matthias and he's a hero!!! My son took to reading very late but when he met Redwall, he was smitten and never looked back!!! I have much to thank Redwall for.
Matt (if I may call you Matt) - people who can see the narcissism in themselves just have 'unhealthy' narcissism which they can work on and change. No doubt about it. But people who have the full blown personality disorder are too damaged to WANT to change (unless they have terrible and repeated crises which make them feel that the alternative is worse).
But usually there's only a short window of opportunity, and they need to be in the right place at the right time with the right support right there in place. Even so, they usually give up on treatment as soon as they start to feel better (and they feel better very quickly as a result of getting the attention of a therapist or group).
It's the WANTING to change that's the issue. And the way they deal with things doesn't actually cause them pain (it just causes pain to the people around them) so why should they want to??? If you're living in hope of a parent making changes, then you will waste a lot of your life being disappointed and feeling betrayed. If you're wondering if you can change, yes you can!
But read 'Controlling People' for one person who seems to be making headway with some N spouses. And try Children of the Self-Absorbed if you are trying to get a handle on an Nparent.
Take care
R
-
PS The Redwall author had a stroke last year but is still writing - Loamhedge is the latest title out over here!!! Hey, adults read him, too!!!
-
You're right Rosencrantz... my normal name is Matt, or Mateo/Matty as my friends call me. I was actually wondering about your name - our teacher made us read Stoppard's play this year, and it was actually pretty clever and witty. However, I'm thinking that you must be quite a bit smarter than your namesake (hope so at least! ;-))
Ros, you are quite right about the wanting to change issue - that's key, and it stops most disordered ppl right at the start. There's nothing I can argue against it really... it's just a shame that that's the way it is. I have a lot of personal experience with this - my dad is a perfect example of what you were talking about.
And Bunny, I still haven't gotten anything out of you. You're a crafty little rabbit. ;-) I'm still wondering where you're coming from with all of this.
Gotta go now... take care,
Matt
-
my husband told me last night that he has thought about all I have said and we talked about and he actually doesn't want to change, he's happy as he is.
He has modified a lot his behaviour and he's a better parent than many none-ns I know.
But is it enough for me for the rest of my life? I don't know, and I don't know if I am the kind of person to see other men or make a whole life outside the marriage though h gave me the goahead for this as well, said he understands but wants to raise children together and happy with platonic relationship.
He can't do intimacy.
Any way around this Matthias or anyone else?
-
Seeker, appreciate the message and glad you're cool about me not answering your questions. Did what I should have done in the first place after my cage got rattled by bunny saying the unethical bit.
No offence intended bunny but this has bothered me. I surfed last night and went into a few different psych associations code of ethics pages. I agree with you this is a serious aspect and and it wasn't something I'd ever thought about before. I was just glad to be getting help, any help, from this psyche and was so grateful when he agreed. Then the last few days questioning myself have been awful, like am I not seeing improvement really, or do I just want to, is the fellow ethical, if he's not ethical why would he agree to see my N, what are his motives but my worste nightmare was if he is good at this area and he can help and if it is unethical then really I should do the right thing for everybody, my family especially and bow out of the relationship with his wife to keep it all above board till therapy is over which could take years or forever or as long as the guy lives. And then in my heart I got resentful at N because my head went straight to him costing me another relationship that I value. I already did a self check on why I strongly felt I had to consider such a drastic option like lose her friendship. It was simple really, how could I be objective about the results or improvments in N whenever the relationship with her is so important. How could I say if ever asked by him again am I seeing any change, how can I say no and risk offending him and my friend. Swirl swirl swirl goes the brain. My family is more important so I decided if this step needed to be taken, so be it, to retain my objectivity. Then dumbo here got a brain between your last post and now and I checked out the code of ethics here and other places and between the differnet psyche associations. And it was such a relief, I'm so glad I did. And I didn't need to risk offending the psyche or my friend. It's all been internal between me and this board and net surfing thank God. But here's what I learned. You go to one association and their members are clearly instructed to refrain from treating anybody who they have a primary relationship with such as an employee, family member, relative, close friend, or coworker. Then other associations are tighter and say their members have to refrain from treating anyone who they are in a primary or secondary or relationship with. These are much tighter restricions and forbid their members from treating anyone who their family, employee, spouse, close friend coworker are in close relationship with either. They specify close friendship. My friend the psyche's wife isn't even in friendship with my husband let alone a close friendship. This was about as tight as its got so far but I'm still looking. No mention of tertiary relationships so far in any of the sites I've searched. I don't quite get why the differences, and why there's no universal code. The one that my psyche is a member of is like the first one, a lot looser only mentions primary and close secondary. Like for example, the psyche couldn't treat me. I'm a close friend of his spouse so I'm definitely a secondary. So anyway where was I, that's good for me from the point of view that I feel I can go back to not worrying about unhealthy motives from the psyche at least at the moment. And I can also understand why bunny was firm because the association code of ethics seem to vary on this point. And it's a global village in this board so depending on where I come from determines the code I'm under. When I've got time on Fiday I'm going to ring our association and confirm this is the case by presenting ahypothetical and see what they say. I need to check that I'm not misreading and misinterpreting the code out of wishful thinking. The other thing that bothered about the whole ethics thing is that he volunteers 4 hours every Tuesday night a week to a local uniting churchs community cottage, seeing people from the church, his church that he goes to for free. Mainly teenagers but also adults. That bugged me because he goes to church with these people and its a normal church. So I hope this leads to it all being okay, but if I find otherwise I think I'll just explain to them that while he's in therapy I need to be objective and stay out of the picture. I think they'd understand. Hey if nothing else I'll find out how treatable my N. And the sooner I know the better. Thanks again to you Seeker.
Guest.
-
anonymous.
I am ***NOT*** saying that this psychiatrist IS AN UNETHICAL PERSON. I'm saying that being friends with his client's spouse is unethical. In THIS AREA he is crossing professional and ethical boundaries. IT IS HIS CHOICE. You don't have to end a friendship. HE should refer your husband elsewhere, OR HE CAN KEEP TAKING THIS RISK TO HIS CAREER. IT IS HIS ETHICAL DILEMMA NOT YOURS. I hope you can hear me.
bunny
-
Dear Anonymous/Guest,
Just wanted to respond to your last note esp. because I sense you are now way out of your comfort zone :shock: . Good idea to check with a professional association on where things stand. It will put your mind at ease either way. I also understand the resentment of losing a valued relationship. That would be natural fall-out. But there, in a nutshell, lies the conflict of interest: Which comes first, a friend or a patient?
Also want to put your mind at ease by suggesting that perhaps this friend is unaware of the lines he may be crossing. It's weird. There are many professions that have codes but the individuals that those codes apply to don't always seem very educated in them! So it may not be anything Machiavellian on his part to say he has no problem. He may be a very thoughtful and disciplined professional. Ethics codes exist to protect the public from professionals who do not respect the boundaries, who need it to be spelled out for them. That said though, the code applies to all, nice or naughty. It may be insulting to the nice ones but the code is there to protect everyone, including the professional. Bottom line is there is a need for professional distance.
Good luck to you Guest. We'll all be curious to learn what you find out.
Seeker
-
my therapist refused to counsel my husband and I either separately or together, she said it's important for the therapist of each to empathize with that person and get to know that person's perspective and what things mean to them.
Where narcissism is involved its even more important, because the nvictim is so hurt and angry and desperate for someone to see their suffering, and the n so damaged and manipulative.
Lundy Bancroft interviews and talks to the wives of men he is working with on anger issues as an integral part of the work, but that's not the same as being friends with them.
Thinking about it, Iwould be hurt if my therapist made friends with my partner, and wonder 'whose side is she on' type things.