Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Healing&Hopeful on August 18, 2006, 11:14:52 AM
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Hiya all
I've been having a nosey moment and wondered what I could find on the internet about "Healthy Relationships". So I did a search and came across this:-
http://www.kidshealth.org/teen/your_mind/relationships/healthy_relationship.html
This is based towards teenagers, but hey I guess we all had to start somewhere and although it is aimed at teens/youngsters, I do feel there is alot here that I wish I knew when I was younger. And maybe if something doesn't work out, or a relationship doesn't work out, going back to the beginning can help.... Just musing some thoughts really! It kind of ties in with the dating thread, so here's some things that I found inspiring!
What Makes a Healthy Relationship?
Hopefully, you and your significant other are treating each other fabulously. Not sure if that's the case?
Mutual respect - Respect in a relationship means that each person values who the other is and understands - and would never challenge - the other person's boundaries.
Trust - There's no way you can have a healthy relationship if you don't trust each other.
Honesty - This one goes hand-in-hand with trust because it's tough to trust someone when one of you isn't being honest.
Support - In a healthy relationship, your significant other is there with a shoulder to cry on when you find out your parents are getting divorced and to celebrate with you when you get the lead in a play.
Fairness/equality - But you'll know if it isn't a pretty fair balance. Things get bad really fast when a relationship turns into a power struggle, with one person fighting to get his or her way all the time.
Separate identities - But that doesn't mean you should feel like you're losing out on being yourself.
Good communication - And if you need some time to think something through before you're ready to talk about it, the right person will give you some space to do that if you ask for it.
What's an Unhealthy Relationship?
A relationship is unhealthy when it involves mean, disrespectful, controlling, or abusive behavior. Some people live in homes with parents who fight a lot or abuse each other - emotionally or physically. For some people who have grown up around this kind of behavior it can almost seem normal or OK. It's not! Many of us learn from watching and imitating the people close to us. So someone who has lived around violent or disrespectful behavior may not have learned how to treat others with kindness and respect or how to expect the same treatment.
Qualities like kindness and respect are absolute requirements for a healthy relationship. Someone who doesn't yet have this part down may need to work on it with a trained therapist before he or she is ready for a relationship. Meanwhile, even though you may feel bad or feel for someone who's been mistreated, you need to take care of yourself - it's not healthy to stay in a relationship that involves abusive behavior of any kind.
Warning Signs
Ask yourself, does my boyfriend or girlfriend:
get angry when I don't drop everything for him or her?
criticize the way I look or dress, and say I'll never be able to find anyone else who would date me?
keep me from seeing friends or from talking to any other guys or girls?
want me to quit an activity, even though I love it?
ever raise a hand when angry, like he or she is about to hit me?
try to force me to go further sexually than I want to?
These aren't the only questions you can ask yourself. If you can think of any way in which your boyfriend or girlfriend is trying to control you, make you feel bad about yourself, isolate you from the rest of your world, or - this is a big one - harm you physically or sexually, then it's time to get out, fast. Let a trusted friend or family member know what's going on and make sure you're safe. It can be tempting to make excuses or misinterpret violence as an expression of love. But even if you know that the person hurting you loves you, it is not healthy. No one deserves to be hit, shoved, or forced into anything he or she doesn't want to do.
Why Are Some Relationships So Difficult?
Ever heard about how it's hard for someone to love you when you don't love yourself? It's a big relationship roadblock when one or both people struggle with self-esteem problems. Your girlfriend or boyfriend isn't there to make you feel good about yourself if you can't do that on your own. Focus on being happy with yourself, and don't take on the responsibility of worrying about someone else's happiness.
Relationships can be one of the best - and most challenging - parts of your world. They can be full of fun, romance, excitement, intense feelings, and occasional heartache, too. Whether you're single or in a relationship, remember that it's good to be choosy about who you get close to. If you're still waiting, take your time and get to know plenty of people. Think about the qualities you value in a friendship and see how they match up with the ingredients of a healthy relationship. Work on developing those good qualities in yourself - they make you a lot more attractive to others. And if you're already part of a pair, make sure the relationship you're in brings out the best in both of you.
Take care
H&H xx
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Dear H & H,
This is great! I like things simple and clear... require them that way, actually. So often I get lost in all the psychobabbly lingo and lose track of the real issues. And about wishing I'd known these important conditions and warning signs younger... oh, yes ~ me, too!
Thank you very much for sharing this.
With love,
Hope
P.S. The main thing I wish I'd known as a young woman is how totally impossible it is to change another human being simply by loving him/her better or enough.
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HI H&H AND HOPE,
I want to use these good relationship ideas and just copy them as reminders and use them with family.
Some things that are so simple we make so complicated.
Well I am starting with the only one I CAN CHANGE FOR THE BETTER thats me.
Thanks for this thread I will show this good stuff to Mr moon and my 2 daughters.
Maybe one of the girls will read it maybe both .I know Mr moon will read it.Thank you again H&H SO UPLIFTING............. :D
moon
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Dear Mrs. Moon,
Thank you for the wonderful idea! I will print this off now for my daughters, as well. One has already learned alot by hard experience, but it's never too late to absorb some more helpful knowledge.
Love,
Hope
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Hi H&H,
Thanks for this topic. I think it was Bradshaw (I can only handle him in small doses) who gave an anecdote of how all he had ever known was unhealthy relating and one day he visited his friend's family and saw the kinds of things your article listed below and felt such "Aw, so that's what it's like .."
It's got me thinking, so why don't these healthy people "come down" and help us up? I guess it's because they don't know how to.
They are healthy from being healthily held and breastfed, etc.. and didn't have to journey to the 18th bottom pit level of hell and back to get where they are.
[SW] What am I trying to say here? .. I guess it's not for me to know why my journey is much more painful than others. Can I accept this? Yes and no. Thank you.
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why don't these healthy people "come down" and help us up? I guess it's because they don't know how to.
They are healthy from being healthily held and breastfed, etc.. and didn't have to journey to the 18th bottom pit level of hell and back to get where they are.
I can think of a few "healthy" people who did try to reach me over the years. I rebuffed them. They seemed strange to me and made me feel uncomfortable. Too nice, too happy, too weird.
Other times it seems to me that the "healthy" ones, and who knows if they are really healthy or not, seem to not want to "share" what they have. Or they may just have very full lives with no room for someone who needs re-teaching. Most people around here have dealings only with family, friends and neighbors they have known all their lives. Newcomers to the area make connections in church, community groups, their workplace. They seem to have a set method, a certain sophistication and confidence (from their "healthy" upbringing) that I can't imagine learning in this lifetime. I can't imagine myself just trying to step into all that at this stage of the game. It's all I can do sometimes to work on my own sense of self worth. But definitely, I sense that those who have "whatever it is", are not of a mind to share. At least not with me.
PP
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PP,
What "they" may have is conformity.
I hope you can start valuing yourself for your uniqueness and never, ever put yourself down for not "getting" social rituals that don't add meaning to your life. For those who enjoy it, good on them.
I am realizing that I used to exhaust myself defining myself as "not like _____". Felt arrogant after a while.
Now I approach my neighbors and just try to be present. I do know what you mean, I think. Sometimes I think that other people have an emotional "cushion" that I don't have. Is that anywhere near the feeling?
Meanwhile, I'm starting to figure out that I might as well accept the qualities I was born with or acquired, and notice what's good about me more often than what's not. All it takes, imo, is as 51% to 49% balance in type of self-talk, to begin the momentum towards happiness.
(Having more than 51% percent compassion and liking for yourself might do remarkable things.)
((((PP)))) I'm sorry if you're feeling lonely.
Hops
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Dear Pennyplant,
I've been meaning to tell you... we have the prettiest aquatic plant in our fishtank... called pennywort... a lovely shade of green, like a pale lime. Anyhow, I like typing out your name :)
I think you said it all here: Other times it seems to me that the "healthy" ones, and who knows if they are really healthy or not, seem to not want to "share" what they have.
To me, if someone is truly healthy that means that they are overflowing with blessings to heap upon others. I just don't believe that there is any room in health and wholeness for the sort of "poverty mentality" that makes people stingy and anal about reaching out to others. I'm sorry you've encountered so much of this, but definitely... things are not always as they appear.
They seem to have a set method, a certain sophistication and confidence (from their "healthy" upbringing) that I can't imagine learning in this lifetime.
My mother is as set, sophisticated, dignified, and confident as they come. Healthy? No way.
I think maybe we need a clearer definition of what healthy means and what it would look like.
Consulting Websters here and then maybe others can add their ideas of what genuine health is comprised of....
(I'm thinking that the word in general may have become almost as obscured in meaning as "normal")
Love,
Hope
Health ~
The overall condition of an organism at a given time.
Soundness, especially of body or mind; freedom from disease or abnormality.
A condition of optimal well-being: concerned about the ecological health of the area
Re: healthy ~
Synonyms: healthy, sound, 2wholesome, hale, 1robust, well, 2hardy, 1vigorous
These adjectives mean being in or indicative of good physical or mental health. Healthy stresses the absence of disease and often implies energy and strength: The healthy athlete biked twenty miles every day. Sound emphasizes freedom from injury, imperfection, or impairment: “The man with the toothache thinks everyone happy whose teeth are sound” (George Bernard Shaw). Wholesome suggests appealing healthiness and well-being: “Exercise develops wholesome appetites” (Louisa May Alcott). Hale stresses freedom from infirmity, especially in elderly persons, while robust emphasizes healthy strength and ruggedness: “He is pretty well advanced in years, but hale, robust, and florid” (Tobias Smollett). Well indicates absence of or recovery from sickness: You should stay home from work if you're not well. Hardy implies robust and sturdy good health: The hardy mountaineers camped in the Alps. Vigorous suggests healthy, active energy and strength: “a vigorous old man, who spent half of his day on horseback” (W.H. Hudson).
Usage Note: The distinction in meaning between healthy (“possessing good health”) and healthful (“conducive to good health”) was ascribed to the two terms only as late as the 1880s. This distinction, though tenaciously supported by some critics, is belied by citational evidencehealthy has been used to mean “healthful” since the 16th century. Use of healthy in this sense is to be found in the works of many distinguished writers, with this example from John Locke being typical: “Gardening... and working in wood, are fit and healthy recreations for a man of study or business.” Therefore, both healthy and healthful are correct in these contexts: a healthy climate, a healthful climate; a healthful diet, a healthy diet.
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Hopsy, Hope,
Ah, you guys, just what I needed. Yes, I'm posting from a position of hurt feelings. I got my feelings hurt at work yesterday and it has kind of lingered.
You know that I've been exposing myself to my N-friend on purpose by going to his office to work a couple times a week. Well, the lessons I'm learning don't all have to do with him. The other people who work there, well, they all trigger my feelings of having been outcast at times during my growing up years. All these small town people who have known each other forever. All former athletes and cheerleaders (like that should matter 30 years later!!! But it does!!! And to them, no less!!! These people still talk about those days and have repeated the culture with their children and still live it. Amazing.)
I know it is good for me in the long run (it is, isn't it?) to finally learn to deal with this stuff. But sometimes I still get overwhelmed and don't know what to do with it. Just automatically forget, PP is a beautiful person, PP is a good friend, PP is a good worker, PP is a good writer, PP is a good Mom.... I just forget that and slip back into PP doesn't fit in, PP is not worthy....
I got a little lost there. Thanks for the timely reminders, you guys.
Yesterday at work, if I could have just gone and cried for about ten minutes, it would have been alright. But you know, you just can't do that sometimes. Instead, I said, "I need a drink :mrgreen:", and went and bought a lemonade and went outside to try and calm down. And didn't the former cheerleader come out to comfort me. And she is such a sweet lady, this former cheerleader who replaced me as the next supply source and doesn't even know it, (isn't Z so nice, I just like him so much. Yes, D, he is nice. What can I say to her? She's so sweet and certainly has no idea of N. And she probably won't be as dumb as I was and let her boundaries be violated so it will all be fine in the end :?)
Well, yes, PP is a bundle of thoughts just flying around, the past, the present, and everybody else's life story thrown in for good measure. All because a dragonlady customer gave her a hard time for no reason and a former cheerleader tried to comfort her.
Hops, I'm going to say it---- POOR ME!!!
But you guys, you can comfort me anytime of the day or night. You guys are the real deal.
Pennyplant
P.S. I did want to be a cheerleader myself, so there's that mixed in too :? Let it go.... let it go.....
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Forgot to say,
Yes, Hops, that emotional cushion, I think others have something along those lines, or maybe it is just a less impressionable memory for hurts or wrongs, and I do not have that. Also, it seems that some people just do not see certain things. I have to run around all the time with these stories in my head about people. People will tell me things or do things around me that either they don't say or do around others, or others just don't see it. So, they can say, Isn't Z so nice? And really mean that, and I just think, "nice" isn't how I would describe Z, complicated maybe, troubled, charming.... And it makes it so hard to just go along and enjoy the repartee or however that word is spelled.
Maybe this is why I don't always enjoy my "uniqueness". I can see I will have to be creative to be able to turn it into a gift. Some people who know me do appreciate my "take" on things. But it would be good if I appreciated it, hmmm?
Hope, even as I typed that one post to Anansi, about the healthy ones, I just knew there was something more to be said about that. Healthy? Maybe the ones who seem to have it together have just lucked onto the dominant way of dealing with their own hurts. It wouldn't take long to find that someone who seems the pillar of society and who maybe others are jealous of, at home is very likely not present emotionally, could be controlling, may even be creating the next generation of voiceless people as we speak. Thank you bringing it back around from where I was going with it. I think I'm actually surrounded by very unhealthy people in this little town. I think there is more health on this board than what I see in my real life.
Pennyplant
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PP
I think you are all those things you said and more a great mom, friend and worker, remember you solved my family FOO .
This N dude must not have a clue about life and that is sad .And not only do you have the clues you have all the keys.
But it hurts when others do not have the same sensibility.
By what standard must a family or group function well? Is it the old TV show Ozzie and Harriet's of the world?
Is this function?
There's a new Ozzy now and he does not function much better.By what standards do we measure ourselves?What do we value?
I believe on this board there have been some beautiful healing standards established.That's what is done here supporting each other and real learning.
Being on your journey of discovery can lead you to claim your individual power. :D :D :D
I know this is true then at times I will get hurt and think somethings wrong with me again.
LOVE TO YOU PennyPlant.............................................My tummy's better ............How's your garden? 8)
p.s. pp you maybe just letting too much of their stuff flow into you.REMEMBER pb's invisible see thu shield to protect yourself with!!!!!!!!!!!!
moon
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Awww, PP.
It's even better when somebody does it for you:
Poor youuuuuuuu. I mean it. I know how that outsider feeling hurts.
Had it all my childhood and adolescence. Have it now in a sense except that I'm neither impressed with it (ohhh I'm so special) nor freaked out about it (god I'm doomed to being unloved) as much.
Sometimes I wonder if that's why I unconsciously sabotaged my yearning for love so thoroughly by choosing people who couldn't value me, because I just didn't hold sustaining interest for them (nor did anybody, much). My intrinsic whateveritis, didn't seem precious. It was more, you're the female. So be the female. And that was just one part of my identity. Then again, here's the kicker--I wonder if I held sustaining interest in myself. Whether in all those hopeless fixations I was complete and grounded enough in my own purpose to weather rejection or caprice of another without being rattled off my foundation. I don't think I was. I think I am moreso, now.
Is that anything like the way you feel?
I'm sloooowly getting around to thinking I just do poetry like a carpenter does cabinets, some good some wobbly, and I do some kinds of thinking about kindness and justice the way other people think about other things, neither worse at it nor better, and I do falling in love like a five year old drives.... Err, that remains to be seen, whether I'll get that one right next time.
But one thing I'm pretty sure of...if I DO detect strong Nism in someone, I don't think the attraction will come to life. I think it'd literally die between my ears, because I truly can't bring myself to fantasize recklessly any more. I want it real, as real as friendship. Based on real reciprocal caring, or I'll be...too busy. It won't be theh right thing to do. I don't find my old capacity to obsess beautiful or romantic any more.
It's like a belated vow. Not being my own enemy any more. In terms of love, I would like the dearest frriend in all the world to be my man. And if that's not going to come my way, I'll just be spreading it around instead of focusing it so much on one person. (Maybe that's what I was meant to do anyhow.)
I'm sorry to ramble on about myself so much but I was wondering if any of it might ring a bell for you. Since you're exposing yourself intentionally to this pain.
Ow.
Do you really deserve to be punished?
(You know what I think, right?)
((((PP)))))
Hops
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Hi PP,
I feel the love from the replies you received from Moonlight, Hope and Hops. And I see how they extend their lovingness to you which you appreciate, as do I witnessing it.
Also, if I may, I think when we were talking about healthy types, we weren't talking about those polished N acts that have created a set up to receive an endless supply of supply for the rest of their lives, the so called well-adjusted ones engaged in their re-created FOO-like soups (the cheerleader gang). Nor do we mean "happy carrots" - perhaps some of whom on the way to building what polished N acts have and others of whom get the call - pick up the golden feather, begin a conscious journey, begin the second half of life. I'm thinking that we're thinking that healthy types (not those with supper polished images of healthy), are those who function with a natural ease of respectful communication when they talk with their friends in a restaurant were both feel energized at the end (not aroused) nor a case of one playing adult or parent (yuck) and the other child. Healthy one experience pleasure, not chemical rushes of addicted activity or sedative intakes. I've eaten alone for most of my life and when I do so in restaurants, I can so much feel the energy. Yeah, most of time, it's some need/painful/co-dependency set up. Other times, it's some kind of game-playing, but sometimes, I'll see two women gently and warmly bouncing the conversational ball back and forth - and I can sense what all this aura talk is about (I don't think I've ever seen two men doing this). But if you or I met those two women, they may extend how sad they feel for seeing us in pain and they even in their hearts wish to help but like you said, they have busy lives and probably feel overwhelmed at the task of making friends with us, plus the whole birds of a feather thing. So in my case, I wish to grow up, be healthy and be able to interact with these healthier types (ie: be able to gently bounce a conversation ball back and back without being in a constant regressed child state begging/vying for love, guidance and approval from the surrogate parent in front of me. Or if one does regress, then it's safe to do, tears come out, then one says, thanks for being there holding me, my honour comes the reply. Gosh, I feel sloppy with this ramble. I hope my meaning still comes across. In other words, I want to have a normal friendship, the kind that's talked about in books on friendship. I have one little book called, 1,000 paths to friendship. I look forward soon, to being able to have friends. I trust it will happen. About what you said, "Hops, I'm going to say it---- POOR ME!!!"
I felt that it a good way. I know, I believe you are mourning something in that sentence.
Anansi
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Just rockin' the babies, Anansi, rockin' the babies. (My own inner one yelling the loudest over the smallest splinter, of course.) But I've grown to like her. To see her sad eyes begin to show some more sparkle.
It just occured to me the day I was writing that we feel shamed by needing such comfort, and I rebel against that.
I have faith you will find friendship too. Not one doubt.
A gentle talk at a table, and then another. Breathing all the while.
Hops
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Dear Pennyplant,
Yes, I think it's good for us to learn to deal with this stuff. I say "us" because I also struggle with the issue of feeling like the "odd voice out" amidst people who appear to have a common basis of relationship into which I will never fit unless I relinquish, or at the very least diminish, the parts of my being which cause their eyebrows to lift and their hackles to rise. I've come to the conclusion that ,,, (to use your example) if it makes D happy to believe that Z is so nice, it's likely that the truth is the last thing she wants to hear, from me or from anyone else. So you see, it's really nothing to do with Z at all. It's about what D needs to believe in order to show up for work every day and get by. Anytime a person lives her life in such a way that it's the truth which threatens to pull the rug out from under her, I know that I'm the odd voice out. There is constant internal pressure to conform to the image which the other individual (or group) is committed to preserving. Once the outcast speaks, that pressure quickly shifts to external, and that, I think, is what it's imperative to learn to deal with in order to learn to accept your uniqueness as a gift.
I just don't see how there can be genuine health unless it's founded on a deep appreciation and acceptance of the truth... honesty and integrity... being the same person outside as we are inside, where no one can see unless we remove the mask. Of course, this presupposes the existence of an absolute truth, which is the one thing that many people will in no wise accept. It's so much more convenient if the truth is relative, but deadly to the spirit, I believe.
At any rate, I see health on this board, too. I see it in the strong desire to overcome the lies we've been told and the ones we've told ourselves, about who we are and what is required to live well in this world.
It's not likely I'd spill my guts to D about Z. I might say, "I don't know" in response to the "he's so nice" and if she asks for more, look deeply into her eyes and see whether she really wants to know because she's caught a glimpse of something and seeks confirmation. If that interest is not present in her, then anything further I say is only likely to be grist for the office rumor mill, so I'd leave it at that. "I just don't know." That seems honest and real to me.
Love,
Hope
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This N dude must not have a clue about life and that is sad .And not only do you have the clues you have all the keys.
But it hurts when others do not have the same sensibility.
I believe on this board there have been some beautiful healing standards established.That's what is done here supporting each other and real learning.
Being on your journey of discovery can lead you to claim your individual power. :D :D :D
I know this is true then at times I will get hurt and think somethings wrong with me again.
LOVE TO YOU PennyPlant.............................................My tummy's better ............How's your garden? 8)
p.s. pp you maybe just letting too much of their stuff flow into you.REMEMBER pb's invisible see thu shield to protect yourself with!!!!!!!!!!!!
moon
Yes, Moon, it is sad that he is so clueless, though sometimes I remind myself, he has built up something all his life that helps him to deal with life. It would be dangerous to dismantle that. But very sad it is, in my opinion. He doesn't seem very sad at all. I guess it works for him.
I like this idea of my journey of discovery helping me claim my individual power. It's hard, though. Not really one of my talents. Very hard work. Yes, I have been letting too much of their stuff flow into me. That is it exactly. I think I must find a graceful way to stop working there. I will think on it.
I'm happy with my gardens lately. They are slowly finding their shapes. I can see some things that need doing and am making a small plan for what will be worked on in the fall this year. Yes, the gardens are coming together and I can enjoy looking at them again. They were overwhelming to me for a couple of years. Seems to be changing for the better now.
Thank you, Moon. This really helps. Love, Pennyplant
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here's the kicker--I wonder if I held sustaining interest in myself. Whether in all those hopeless fixations I was complete and grounded enough in my own purpose to weather rejection or caprice of another without being rattled off my foundation. I don't think I was. I think I am moreso, now.
Is that anything like the way you feel?
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But one thing I'm pretty sure of...if I DO detect strong Nism in someone, I don't think the attraction will come to life. I think it'd literally die between my ears, because I truly can't bring myself to fantasize recklessly any more. I want it real, as real as friendship. Based on real reciprocal caring, or I'll be...too busy. It won't be theh right thing to do. I don't find my old capacity to obsess beautiful or romantic any more.
It's like a belated vow. Not being my own enemy any more. In terms of love, I would like the dearest frriend in all the world to be my man. And if that's not going to come my way, I'll just be spreading it around instead of focusing it so much on one person. (Maybe that's what I was meant to do anyhow.)
I'm sorry to ramble on about myself so much but I was wondering if any of it might ring a bell for you. Since you're exposing yourself intentionally to this pain.
Ow.
Do you really deserve to be punished?
(You know what I think, right?)
((((PP)))))
Hops
Yes, Hops, this is a lot like how I feel. I believe I'm not as far along as you but it is a lot like what I feel. I am not grounded in my purpose at all. It is extremely easy to rock my foundation. I don't think I have much of a foundation yet. There are the ingredients for one. But I'm floundering in the construction of it.
The current problem I've made for myself has to do with having got sucked in before I realized that I was dealing with someone so unhealthy. He is how I learned what N is. So, my current problem is one of extrication. Along with the foundation building. It's all so distracting and confusing when I'm feeling weakened.
Yes, this intentional exposure is painful. Very painful. My unasked question was, in fact, am I just punishing myself now? Have I learned enough? And to go further in this direction, is it just some kind of punishment? That is the thing I was unsure of. Looks like, as I said to Moon, it is time to get off this particular path to enlightenment. Now I'm just spinning my wheels.
It will take me some time to come up with the graceful exit. Since it is not going away by itself as I hoped a couple weeks ago. In fact, my time with this person has increased, unfortunately. Sometimes I just leave myself too open to situations like this. No wonder other people are so resistant to change and putting themselves out there. It's not always good for you to be open to unknown situations. I think I have led my lfe quite aimlessly. It has led to a quite a mixed bag of experiences.
Hops, you are very right about these things. It is hard for me to work on this but that is going to have to be the next step. Thanks.
Pennyplant
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I think when we were talking about healthy types, we weren't talking about those polished N acts that have created a set up to receive an endless supply of supply for the rest of their lives, the so called well-adjusted ones engaged in their re-created FOO-like soups (the cheerleader gang). Nor do we mean "happy carrots" - perhaps some of whom on the way to building what polished N acts have and others of whom get the call - pick up the golden feather, begin a conscious journey, begin the second half of life. I'm thinking that we're thinking that healthy types (not those with supper polished images of healthy), are those who function with a natural ease of respectful communication when they talk with their friends in a restaurant were both feel energized at the end (not aroused) nor a case of one playing adult or parent (yuck) and the other child. Healthy one experience pleasure, not chemical rushes of addicted activity or sedative intakes. I've eaten alone for most of my life and when I do so in restaurants, I can so much feel the energy. Yeah, most of time, it's some need/painful/co-dependency set up. Other times, it's some kind of game-playing, but sometimes, I'll see two women gently and warmly bouncing the conversational ball back and forth - and I can sense what all this aura talk is about (I don't think I've ever seen two men doing this). But if you or I met those two women, they may extend how sad they feel for seeing us in pain and they even in their hearts wish to help but like you said, they have busy lives and probably feel overwhelmed at the task of making friends with us, plus the whole birds of a feather thing. So in my case, I wish to grow up, be healthy and be able to interact with these healthier types (ie: be able to gently bounce a conversation ball back and back without being in a constant regressed child state begging/vying for love, guidance and approval from the surrogate parent in front of me. Or if one does regress, then it's safe to do, tears come out, then one says, thanks for being there holding me, my honour comes the reply. Gosh, I feel sloppy with this ramble. I hope my meaning still comes across. In other words, I want to have a normal friendship, the kind that's talked about in books on friendship. I have one little book called, 1,000 paths to friendship. I look forward soon, to being able to have friends. I trust it will happen. About what you said, "Hops, I'm going to say it---- POOR ME!!!"
I felt that it a good way. I know, I believe you are mourning something in that sentence.
Polished N-acts--oh, how those people confuse me!!! And the thing is, I know it is fake, I have known that all my life. I used to get in debates with these people in the classroom, somehow thinking I could educate them about their own fakeness. How dumb!! They would get so angry and defensive. No wonder I was quite the unpopular girl. All that rejection just made me doubt my own two eyes. My weak foundation got me in trouble every time.
Happy carrots, I like that. I will look for an opportunity to say that sometime :mrgreen: . That will be fun!
Yes, Anansi, I am mourning many things. Probably most of them are illusions I've had for so long. The real me is starting to rise to the surface every so often and she does feel familiar and likeable. I would say this place is helping me with laying the illusions to rest and with giving me opportunities to do the necessary mourning. It does me no good to fight the grief or try to stuff it. Just going to have to feel it.
Eating alone in restaurants--I do that at lunch time most work days. Where I go most of the government workers eat and also some of the city council persons do their schmoozing there. They do all take themselves so seriously. It is rare to see real sharing and back and forth. Often, when I see it, it turns out the people are from Europe. I think you've said you're Canadian. Do you find a difference that way by nationality in your neck of the woods? Could be just another of my illusions of how people are.
Thanks, Anansi, you got me thinking. Pennyplant
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Anytime a person lives her life in such a way that it's the truth which threatens to pull the rug out from under her, I know that I'm the odd voice out. There is constant internal pressure to conform to the image which the other individual (or group) is committed to preserving. Once the outcast speaks, that pressure quickly shifts to external, and that, I think, is what it's imperative to learn to deal with in order to learn to accept your uniqueness as a gift.
I just don't see how there can be genuine health unless it's founded on a deep appreciation and acceptance of the truth... honesty and integrity... being the same person outside as we are inside, where no one can see unless we remove the mask. Of course, this presupposes the existence of an absolute truth, which is the one thing that many people will in no wise accept. It's so much more convenient if the truth is relative, but deadly to the spirit, I believe.
At any rate, I see health on this board, too. I see it in the strong desire to overcome the lies we've been told and the ones we've told ourselves, about who we are and what is required to live well in this world.
It's not likely I'd spill my guts to D about Z. I might say, "I don't know" in response to the "he's so nice" and if she asks for more, look deeply into her eyes and see whether she really wants to know because she's caught a glimpse of something and seeks confirmation. If that interest is not present in her, then anything further I say is only likely to be grist for the office rumor mill, so I'd leave it at that. "I just don't know." That seems honest and real to me.
When the truth threatens to pull the rug out from under someone's life.... Oh that makes so much sense. It explains so much about my life.
No, I won't tell D anything of my point of view. In fact, we talk about other things that I find enlightening about what makes that kind of person tick. She is so near the beginning of the journey, not very close at all to picking up Anansi's golden feather. That is her journey, not mine. When she said, Z is so nice, I just let it stand. I doubt very much that he will ever step over the line he crossed with me, which I let him do, of course. That was my part in this.
Hope, you have spelled out something important here and done it very clearly. This is something that speaks to me, truth is one of my core values. I don't always honor it. But it keeps on waiting for me anyway.
Pennyplant
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H & H, you really started something here. I've learned so much from this thread. Very timely too as a matter of fact. Sometimes it works out good that way.
Pennyplant
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Hi PP,
I'd about chew my arm off and hand it to someone in a sandwich to prevent them from going through N heartbreak.
This may be boundary smashing (let me know if you think so) but if I saw a younger, more vulnerable woman appearing to fantasize about an N man I knew, I truly might want to say something to her when she mentioned him. Not sure what would be the right words, but maybe, with seriousness but no acid: "You know, it can be surprising how different some people are inside from how they seem." Just something like that, while making some caring eye contact. And then let it go...
I think I'd be troubled if I never said anything and I could see someone else headed for the same trainwreck.
After my hitting-bottom N, the thing that was sooooo healing was that I intentionally spoke to other women I knew had been involved with him. Both of them reacted the exact same way, god this is such a relief, I'm not crazy after all, he did the exact same thing with me. And they both said that the conversation had helped them to let go and move on (one had been in therapy for 4 years specifically to resolve her uncertainty and grief over him). Then later I met a woman at my church who asked if I knew him, and I said something similar to what I say above....
I know that we need to respect people's rights to make their own mistakes, but I'm all for warning the vulnerable if I can. (Of course it made HIM furious that I "blew his cover", but I realized I was well past minding that.) This is a big exaggeration, but it reminds me of the wives of bigamists when they get together...there's invariably such a bonding and comfort, once they're past the shock.
Hops
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Hi Hops,
It's just so hard for me to know whether someone else is as vulnerable to this kind of thing as I apparently am. It seems like these other women are better able to keep it in balance. I do see the same signs in the others of having a "crush" but I don't know that it is as troublesome to them as it is to me. They seem to understand right off the bat that it is some kind of game that will only go so far. I wanted it to be a real relationship. In fact, I thought it was real, though strange, because I tend to think that people mean the things they say and he talked about it as if it were real. He even "broke up" with me! That is how we came to be "friends."
I do know that one of the women consciously picked him as someone she couldn't have a real, consummated relationship with because she is not ready for that. The fantasy part seems to meet some kind of real need she has. What that need is, I do not know. I do know her history, because she has told me most of it several times. All I can say is there are people who dabble in this kind of stuff and it doesn't seem to effect them the way it does me.
Since I'm going to be working with D periodically, I can at least keep my conscience on high alert. I did try once to say something about what he is like beneath the facade to one of his other woman friends. She just brushed off my comments. It didn't have anything to do with HER. I have since observed that she treats men in that same way that Z treats women, so perhaps she has N tendencies of her own. The other woman, D, seems not to be like that. She seems genuinely too open and user-friendly. On the other hand, she went to school with Z's wife. Perhaps that might be something of an obstacle to letting it go as far as I did. I know I would've been more careful if I knew his wife. Since I didn't, it was easy for me to justify things. I know, not a very fine part of myself.
Hops, I don't feel that your comments are boundary smashing. I need for people to tell me like it is. The thing is, it does seem to me that a lot of middle-aged married people (where I work anyway) enjoy this kind of "play". "Work boyfriend" they call it. Most of them seem to have that cushion that lets them deal with any possible disappointment. I feel like I'm just incredibly naive to have let myself believe what I believed. Plus, the physical setup of where I usually work and the schedule allowed for some "alone time" that fed it and made it seem possible. Where he usually works now, they don't really have that. So, I think D won't have to deal with him upping the ante with her because it won't be physically possible.
I don't know what I could say or when I could say it. But I will pay attention in my conversations with her. Be a little more together about it.
Actually, the other day I said something to him--about if he was going to have a harem, he would have to follow the rules about it and treat each member of the harem equally. I suppose that went right over his head. Or maybe I made it worse and now he is going to take his "responsbilities" in harem-maintenance to heart. Instead of just breaking up the harem completely. Oh, "head-shaking, forehead-slapping" emoticon here.
Sometimes I think my N-friend must have been somewhat off his game when he reeled me in. The others just accept it when he does the ignoring thing and other inconsiderate behaviors. They just don't see it the way I do. I've been somewhat of a thorn in his side sometimes. Not that it gets through to him.
This is definitely a difficult thing I got myself into. I don't see it ever happening again, now that I have this knowledge. One difficulty with this situation, is, I'm embarrassed that I was so naive about it. And took it so seriously. Letting go is very hard for me. It seems like other people have better coping mechanisms. I mean, I know people who "just stop thinking about it". They are not really into soul-searching.
I would like to think that at this time next year, I'll be in a different place emotionally and will have left this behind. It's going to be a lot of work, though.
Thank you, Hops. It really is better to avoid getting into something like this than to have to get yourself out of it.
PP
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"Just rockin' the babies. ... A gentle talk at a table, and then another. Breathing all the while." (Hops)
Thank you Hops for both! I feel calmer when I think of what you said "just rockin' the babies" (sigh)
About this gentle talk, I would like to know if I could have the help of two people here. Can one be my "tennis" conversation partner and can another on be my coach? I need to learn how to do this, to form and maintain a calm flow when I talk to someone.
I wonder if Pennyplant or Hope or Write or Plucky or Beth can volunteer and if Hops, if you could be my coach?
This new thread: How about calling it: A gentle talk at a table?
Whaddaya say? It would mean a lot to me.
I want to experience what a healthy normal conversation feels like.
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Hi PP,
"I think you've said you're Canadian. Do you find a difference that way by nationality in your neck of the woods?"
I'm not sure if there's anything different I can offer on this one. I sometimes get the impression that conversations are about who can be better at not reacting to what the other said, who can stay the coolest. But one thing is for sure, which I suppose is a good thing, the moment the other person sees that I'm giving away most of my power to them, they'll either cut and run or milk it for all they can. I perfer the former! I feel such deep pain when I fall in the seduction of the latter and then it hurts the most, they cut and run after getting their fill feeling good about themselves. There attitude is: Hey, if he wants to give me all his energy and power, I'll take it, why not?
Anansi
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Anansi, I guess you can't tell from how I post on this board---but I'm a terrible conversationalist. I'm very erratic. I do like talking about real topics, which I suppose you do too. I have a hard time starting a conversation. I'm more of a responder. It probably comes from not being answered when I said things to my parents. And from being laughed at when I said things to my peers and in the classroom. And perhaps from blurting things out and then people have no idea where I'm coming from or they think I'm just being blunt.
If you start the "Gentle Talk at a Table" thread I will try to participate. But I'm probably as much of a student as you are. If that's okay with you, it's okay with me.
I used to talk a lot as a kid. Anything that came to mind. I used to like to read outloud too. But most everybody wanted me to shut up and eventually I did. Now I second guess my words a lot. My husband is very quiet and he admires my ability to talk well with other people. I guess it's all in your perspective. I know better about my "ability". It's rough going sometimes.
PP
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Anansi,
I am honored that you asked. I would be glad to gently offer "alternative dialogue" for you.
See who joins you at your table and how it flows, and I will try it this way:
When you say something that I can guess might have that over-intensity or over-vulnerability, if I think I'm perceiving that right, I'll just copy and paste a bit of your quote in a reply, and then put some kind of alternative response or remark that occurs to me might be helpful in brackets.
I won't editorialize (much :?)...I'll just toss them in for you to look at. After it goes on a while, you can decide if it's illuminating or not. And I'll butt out whenever you like or when I feel redundant.
I think you'll have to stick out your neck and start the thread, though. (Want to start with the weather?)
Good luck!
Your brackets buddy,
Hops
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Thank you PP,
I will try my best to gently hit the ball over the net. Dear Hops, I so much respect you, please feel free to coach soft or hard, whatever it takes. PP, let's relax and practice. I'll start off with a gentle serve about the weather (Thanks Hops for the starting topic, I'm smiling now because I virtually never talk about the weather).
Anansi
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Dear Anansi,
I'm sorry I missed your invitation to join the gentle table-talk, but I thank you so much for thinking of me...this made me smile :)
It's been a very busy day at my home and so I'm late here to catch up with my reading, but I wish you the best in your efforts!
I think it's an absolutely wonderful idea and I'll be here cheering you on :)
With love,
Hope
P.S. We had some much needed rainshowers today 8)