Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Hopalong on August 19, 2006, 11:27:40 PM
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I was wondering if there's anyone else who doesn't use the word God freely or have very firm ideas about spirituality? I wonder if I've articulated that in a way that anybody else might recognize.
(I might just be having a new kind of reaction to my friend's death, so please bear with me if I'm going pathetic...). I'm trying to take my own advice. I feel a little lonely and pooooor me.
Happy detour--guess what? My D just emailed and asked me to call her tomorrow. It's about the possibility of us meeting at a house near the beach I've been offered for a week so she could at the same time get a tour of a university she's interested in. But I'm tickled. She asked me so POLITELY. And she used to just demand: Call. Send me this. Here's hoping I stay centered and relaxed and clear with her.
Anyway, my topic...the language of Christianity has become so large here that I'm feeling less and less able to ... I dunno. Feel belonging. Who knows? Maybe that's a good thing, and exactly what I need to learn from! Or maybe Penny's earlier post really reminded me of that painful outsider feeling.
I am missing the easier flow of sharing, but I can't describe it very well. Maybe this way of reinforcing is easier for others and I just need to accept that. And maybe THIS language is just flowing for others, and my not feeling it is something for me to learn from. So that's okay too.
It just feels at moments like a wall and I am only blowing bubbles that go plop.
(In the big picture of life, I'm sure that's true! A little humility won't hurt me any.) :)
Thanks for listening to what is not very linear just now.
Happy Sunday all. I know mine will be tough, I'm taking R's partner to lunch and she is so intense in her grief that I need to be really steady. It's as though she wants me to share her grief for R, and mine is less intense of course, but it is my own. Is that stupid? Of course it is. I'll get past that. I am feling really dense, but I forgive myself. Sorry for the incoherence but I appreciate this place to write.
Hops
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Oh not another person in my life who can't commit to something! ( smile )
Hi Hops, I just logged in and your I feel a little lonely and pooooor me. jumped out at me.
I'm feelign a bit that way, actually not so bad now I started writing and did something with it.
I was so happy earlier too- an evening with my ex and pre-teen son can do that...
One thing I noticed about the Unitarian churches I have been to, few ( here at least- it's more a Christian church in Europe) seem comfortable with the word G_d, either going all New Age or just avoiding the concept. Is yours a church which names G_d? One of the places I went to if the preacher said G_d there was a frisson of annoyance in the room! and the judgemental attitude to other faiths could be a bit rich too- surprising how often people in attenpting to remove one dogma simply grow another.
There are many definitions of G_d and yes, some churches do teach that theirs is right and the Only way. I'm with Ghandi on religion though: G_d has no religion.
I am a Christian because I was raised in that religion, that culture and because I love the teachings of Jesus ( minus the dogma ) and I am lucky to have been able to choose my faith freely after years of study and examining other faiths, and to live where I can practise it freely.
G_d to me is both mystery and all-encompassing. That Spirit of the Universe which connects us all and is everything good.
Not everyone deifies it, I think it is possible to be close to G_d without naming G_d....in fact some of the strongest people spiritually I have known have been followers without a need for ego or religious structure- just reading and appreciating the wisdom of prophets, accepting the beliefs of others and the value of living a good life.
Glad your daughter wants to see you.
Hope tomorrow is ok, it's really hard supporting someone in intense grief, be extra kind to yourself the rest of the day. She will adjust to her loss in time, you too. (((((((((((((((((((((((((())))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
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yes hops. Our views are very similar I think, from what you've explained before.
I'm listening and I think I understand.
pb
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Thank you, Write. I think you're going somewhere I'd like to follow.
My UU church generally avoids naming a deity, but we sing God in hymns, and we have married ministers: one is happy in using God, the other isn't. And then we 8 worship associates give sermons too, and some speak of a direct god experience, some don'tperienve but talk religious ex. Ministers come and go, but the community is such a warm haven. Thanks for reminding me that my bubble-bowing matters there.
We have a Chrisitan UU group that meets Thursday nights and are very joyful in studying the NT and deepening their experience of Jesus. There's even a group in the denomination that having UU Christian revivals!
We have other groups too of course. We have banners representing all the world's major religion hung around the ceiling of the sanctuary, to show our openness and respect for whatever is good in the heart of any religion based on love. I guess my definition always circles back to, if god were love and only love, then I would believe in god. But i've got a lot of untangling from the texts to do before it will be that pure for me. One day, I do hope I will have my simple faith again, that's direct, no text and no interpreter.
Thanks too Pb. Don't feel lonesome no mo!
I think it is possible to be close to G_d without naming G_d....in fact some of the strongest people spiritually I have known have been followers without a need for ego or religious structure- just reading and appreciating the wisdom of prophets, accepting the beliefs of others and the value of living a good life.
And Write, thanks so much especially for this.
love
Hops
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Hops,
I see the cosmos as Divine and Sacred................ also I Love the teachings of Jesus......................
But I see Jesus as more than just a teacher.
We are all on this earthship together.There are no outsider's.
I believe in Gods love.No painful experience has effected my Faith in God.
The concept of God truly would be beyond words for me.
TOO COOL about your daughter.I hope tomorrow goes well for you I am sure it will what a summer WOW !
MoonLight
(((((((((((((((((((((((Hops))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
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if god were love and only love
well this is a problem with deification.
Once we see G_d as an all powerful guy on a cloud or other personification we attribute human qualities: how could G_d allow suffering etc 'prove it'...
For me is important to see things human in context: eg the Bible in the social context of when it was written and the contexts of translation and interpretation. And suffering just is. There is some cause and effect, like the global warming we talked about, or war, or human behaviour. But some things just are and the lesson is hidden behind the suffering. And also if people did not suffer we would have no opportunity to help them.
I see G_d as a Spirit, and the various interpretations of G_d as cultural and psychological.
But The Spirit is absolute, everywhere, I want to be tuning in to that balance of the Universe, that is pure love, and belonging exactly at the time and place we are meant to be.
Trusting in that means to accept our condition but try to transcend it through for example for me the teachings of Jesus: self-sacrifice, self-discipline, kindness, and losing qualities like anger, greed, destructiveness.
I can't fully explain the phenomenon ( ! ) and I am certainly no aspiring spiritual leader, but I feel confident your life is touched by G_d because of the way you live and the peace and harmony you bring here for example.
I am not the kind of Christian who believes Christ took care of my sins so I can go sin and repent and be forgiven; I don't see that as growth in personal or human terms. The Sermon on the Mount contains instructions for a good life; amazing to think of Jesus understanding psychology and how to communicate with many people on different levels.
But people are all at different places. Some people need the reassurance of an afterlife or greater purpose. I tend to think we create our lives here and now and what we put into the world around us.
Giving love is really important. We are taught to look for love and to wait for love and to seek love, but purest love is the serenity of giving love freely and watching the ripples in the pond flow back and forth with no expectation, but that the love is there or will soon be there. Trusting in G_d and our place in the Universe, and giving out love, that's how I see Spiritual balance; and following the teachings of Christ for me is practical instruction for how to live day to day.
I think everyone should feel confident to seek G_d and however they receive the Spirit is between them and G_d. No one can tell anyone else what is right, only what works for them and show others love.
I think my faith is stronger because I chose it and I've examined lots of belief systems. Another person might be firm in the convictions they were taught from childhood. I think it's all ok if it's really love and respectful. I think it takes courage to develop your own faith- not blind faith but eyes wide open faith.
Saying that- I feel more and more, G_d will provide; I am loved and taken care of. This is powerful for me, who was not loved or cared of as a helpless baby.
When I am really in balance in all aspects of my life the spiritual is at the top, and it's no effort to do what I need to do and especially no effort to be kind or patient or examine my conscience.
Time for bed- or I'll be out of synch tomorrow.
The concept of God truly would be beyond words for me.
it is hard to express, without sounding New Age or corny or just plain deranged ( smile )
On which note- to bed!
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I think everyone should feel confident to seek G_d and however they receive the Spirit is between them and G_d. No one can tell anyone else what is right, only what works for them and show others love.
Yes, thanks for saying this
I think my faith is stronger because I chose it
The UU book, A Chosen Faith, helped me with that too...there's just so much freedom that I also feel a lot of responsibility. When a belief system doesn't spell it all out for me, I really have to be careful to stay in touch with my conscience and keep my mind open
I think it's all ok if it's really love and respectful. I think it takes courage to develop your own faith- not blind faith but eyes wide open faith.
It does.
Saying that- I feel more and more, G_d will provide; I am loved and taken care of. This is powerful for me, who was not loved or cared of as a helpless baby.
I am so happy for you that you have broken through, and know G_d
When I am really in balance in all aspects of my life the spiritual is at the top, and it's no effort to do what I need to do and especially no effort to be kind or patient or examine my conscience
Thank you, Write. This is inspiration I needed.
Happy, happy Sunday...
Hops
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Write:
I am not the kind of Christian who believes Christ took care of my sins so I can go sin and repent and be forgiven; I don't see that as growth in personal or human terms. The Sermon on the Mount contains instructions for a good life; amazing to think of Jesus understanding psychology and how to communicate with many people on different levels.
This is good, since Jesus, Himself, told a woman caught in adultery, to go and SIN NO MORE.
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Hiya Hops.....not many replies hey?
What is agnostic? Does that relate to a god in some way?
I have no concept of God so I guess 'not believing' is a non-starter. Not believing in what exactly? Don't I have to have an idea of what to start off with, so that i can decide not to believe in it? Ha!
I have a brain and that's 'me'. I have no idea really if others think like I do. I use language to try and get closer but that's not perfect.
My sense of something bigger than me is what i see with my brain, what I trust from what others tell me. I sense my environment and that's sure bigger than me! I look at the stars and think that's a long way. I feel the (increasing) heat from the sun and think: the sun is 'friend' but it is also 'enemy'.....but of course i know, the sun is neutral, the sun doesn't care about humans or life one way or another, the sun simply is....like a rock. I love rocks and stones, their sense of 'time' if they have a sense of time. This little stone I hold may still be a stone in 1,000 years' time when i am part of the planet's dust. I think we don't disappear, we become planet dust and I find that quite comforting! okay....I am not a Buddhist either, i refuse the labels :D but that's how i think today. Tomorrow I might take up an ism or two, who knows?
Take care ((((((Hops)))))
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.not many replies hey?
she only posted it last night, don't be impatient P!
What is agnostic? Does that relate to a god in some way?
it can relate to any belief but is generally applied to religious belief:
non commital/ doubting truth or knowledge; believing it is impossible to answer question 'is there a God?'; skeptical about divinity whilst not being unbeliever.
I think we don't disappear, we become planet dust and I find that quite comforting!
There is a huge comfort to me in thinking we are part of an eternal cycle.
Here is a quote from http://www.pantheism.net/ The Pantheist Society:
We see death as the return to nature of our elements, and the end of our existence as individuals. The forms of "afterlife" available to humans are natural ones, in the natural world. Our actions, our ideas and memories of us live on, according to what we do in our lives. Our genes live on in our families, and our elements are endlessly recycled in nature.
For those who believe in an afterlife I don't think the beliefs here contradict each other, for it is the soul which ascends to heaven leaving the body behind.
I am not a pantheist but during the years when I was not spiritually at peace I would find this incredible connection with nature ( also music ) and now I know it was G_d, or what G_d is to me.
“Read a good book, take a long walk, make a new friend,”
when everything in life is bleak these three can make all the difference. Sharing them with family and friends, and teaching your children 'this is how I live', that is so special.
And we have another chance to watch M. shine
growing your family memories.
So many of mine have come from church, at times when I was really adrift as a child the church was a source of consistency, an anchor into a calendar and routine away from the turmoil of an unhappy family, and in my music life a chance to learn and to shine ( my family were never very interested sadly but many others were and sowed a seed which is a creative jungle now! )
Happy, happy Sunday...
As a child Sundays at home were interminable. Now I cherish a 'day of rest' and like early English politician and playwright Joseph Addison think
Sunday clears away the rust of the whole week.
I don't have a church, but my mind's my own church ( Thomas Paine- not that I wish to foment any kind of revolution except maybe in thinking and people being kind :) )
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THINKING WELL OF OTHERS, KINDNESS ,FORGIVENESS ,NOT HOLDING GRUDGES,LOVING SELF IN A HEALTHY WAY
On an on I believe Jesus taught on such ideas..................................I see the cosmos as sacred.
Happy thoughts on a Sunday
Love to you Write,Hops,pb,Laura,Dr.Grossman,Portia,and All
MoonLight
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Hi Hops,
I suppose just about now you are meeting R's partner for your lunch together. I believe that no matter what you say or do, she will sense your caring and love. It is difficult. Just being there for her will be enough.
And now your daughter has reached out to you--again!!! You're holding on to your boundaries with her and she has come around anyway. How good is that? Very good.
The question--I was agnostic for many years. I think I was just unable to trust or understand what I believed. Now I am not agnostic but my husband and sons are. Maybe they even tend toward atheism. It's just not much of an issue for my husband and youngest son. My oldest has wrestled with it much as I have. I don't suppose I could be called a Christian. My interest in the bible tends to be more from the point of view of the history of it. Church hasn't ever really felt very comfortable for me. Maybe that will change some day. But I'd have to pretty much go by myself as my husband isn't interested at all.
It is just another piece of the loneliness pie for me. I'm almost always an outsider. I'm more triggered by cheerleaders than Christians :lol: :lol: :lol: .
I would say it is true that there are a lot of mentions of God here. A lot of mentions of Christian belief. Maybe it is just standing out to you so strongly because it is one of your more important personal quests. That is something that has come through in your posts all along. It's not a bad thing. It just happens to be one of the things you're actively working on. I think it's interesting to follow your quest. I'd say, just keep going with it. See what happens.
Love, Pennyplant
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Hi Hops,
I'm not Agnostic, but I d;on't feel excluded from your thre4ad. :D I wish you the best day, one that fills your heart with love, hope, and faith.
Glad for the positive signs from your daughter. :D
teartracks
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Hi Hoppy,
I had been thinking that some of the discussions here had gotten pretty overtly Christian, and while it does not bother me personally, I can see how that would be uncomfortable for someone who does not share the same beliefs.
Please don't feel left out. In the end, we are all here to discuss voicelessless, and I think you know all about that. I can see how hearing others speak of a very specific idea of God can be strange if you are in the mode of thinking this through or you have decided that you cannot ever know exactly how and what and who God could be.
In the religion in which I was raised, no other religion was ever vilified or made to be incorrect. We learned how every religion has some good in it, and some bad, just as people do. We also learned that organised religion was not necessary for spiritual development, and that this was the right path for some. We also discussed at length, but never received cut-and-dried rules, on who and what God is. Some think of a very personified God, more of an individual. Others think of a more pantheistic approach, where nature and human nature are encompassed by a larger entity which can be called God. Some believe that God is the amalgamation of all the good in the world. Some that God encompasses the good and the bad, because there cannot be anything in existence which is not God.
I think this spectrum, and much more, probably exists on the board as well but the more vocal people are those whose ideas are more specific.
I can only speak for myself, but for me, your voice in this area is valid and needed along with all the others. The Buddhist approach seems to be compatible with yours - what do you think of that philosophy?
Plucky
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Jesus paid too dear a price for me to deny Him, plus He said "if you deny me before man, I will deny you before my Father. If you confess me before man, I will confess you before my Father.
Besides this, I would not want to live without my relationship with Him...I am not religious and can see why that would turn people off. I have a personal (not private) relationship with my Lord.
~Laura
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I think Jesus could cope without my constant adoration and attention Laura :)
He also said 'why call me good- no one is good but G_d' Mark 10
I haven't read all the threads but I am sorry you are having a difficult time with your marriage (((((((((((()))))))))))))))
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I'd be interested to know what you think of Buddhism too, H, and I've been wondering how your lunch went and if you're ok.
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Um that might fly with me, if I didn't know that Jesus and God are one and the same entity
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This isn't a complete history but basically The Trinity is very much a human doctrine:
A.D. 29 Jesus said, "The Lord our God is one Lord" (Mark 12:29).
A.D. 57 Paul said, "To us there is but one God" (1 Cor. 8:6).
A.D. 96 Clement said, "Christ was sent by God".
A.D. 120 "Apostles' Creed": "I believe in God the Father".
A.D. 150 Justin Martyr, introduces Greek Philosophy.
A.D. 170 The word "Trias", appears first in Christian literature.
A.D. 200. "Trinitas" is first introduced by Tertullian.
A.D. 280 Origen, opposes prayers to Christ.
A.D. 260 Sabellius: "Father, Son and Holy Ghost are three names for the same God".
A.D. 300 Trinitarian prayers unknown in the Church.
A.D. 325 "Nicene Creed" afflrms Christ to be "Very God of Very God".
A.D. 370 Doxology composed.
A.D. 381. Council of Constantinople invents "Three persons in One God".
A.D. 388 Emperor Theodosius threatens punishment to all who won't worship the Trinity.
A.D. 519 Doxology ordered to be sung in all the Churches.
A.D. 669 Clergy commanded to commit to memory the "Athanasian Creed".
A.D. 826 Bishop Basil, required the clergy to repeat the " Athanasian Creed" every Sunday.
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I have always found The Trinity to be somewhat divisive, I guess I am a Unitarian.
G_d is simply G_d to me, though Christ and all the prophets and all the good belongs to the same Spirit.
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Wow. Thank you everyone. A lot! I feel present and accounted for.
(Pehaps my ego was suffering...it'll do that.) But your responses are so rich, varied, thoughtful and honest. What more could anyone ask? I think nuttin'. I read all of it and then I thought...
You dummy (self), you knew that. Meaning, I knew that people are honest and forthright and just being who they are and speaking the language that is truest for them here. I didn't forget, exactly, I think I was just feeling a little overwhelmed (old associations of prejudice and even some present ones about the state of the world re. religious wars, etc). All better. Ohmmmmmm.... (Kidding, I have a squirrel in my brain that makes me a lousy meditator). But yes, Plucky, btw, I do relate very hummingly to Buddhist concepts. Not all the way, but then, that would be agnostic thing too. I LIKE the compassion over everything else that many branches of Buddhism spend the most energy on.
I looked up another definition of agnostic that sounded less negative than doubting or being skeptical about god, but in my own words, holding the space of not knowing (But Write, "noncomittal" was the secondary definition -- a person who can't or won't commit to something, as in a "political agnostic"--GREAT! Oh well, Mud knows me better. Reliably soppy liberal. Hmm. Not entirely true actually, I have some conservative views, particularly regarding children. Tigerish and nonpermissive, I guess...). :? Back to agnostic--somehow in my brain/spirit, though, to hold that space as unknown IS faith. Sounds back-assward, I know, but in paradox sometimes things make more sense to me. What I mean is...I have faith that it is not necessary for me to declare belief, because if there were deity/ies I could believe in, it/they would be about such love as is beyond human comprehension AND any language or text and to which the limits of my imagination or will OR language would be irrelevant. (That's why I see many books as about the human impulse toward the sacred but no books as sacred.) I think this has something to do with my feelings about writing, too, but I can't articulate that better yet. I know when I majored in linguistics there was a ghastly moment when we were crawling around inside the micro-units of syllables called monemes and phonemes and I had a really shattering awareness of words literally dissolving into having no weight. Once (I) reassembled, I think they'd lost a lot of their absolute might.
Right, the other definition: a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and probably unknowable; broadly : one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god [Merriam Webster online]
I did a little essay in an online paper a few months ago:
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I'm a very optimistic agnostic, ripe for a deathbed epiphany. I found my faith in a community, not a creed.
Traditional religion fell apart for me decades ago, with the painful realization that I was "less than" in most traditions because of my gender. It broke my heart, and I lost the words for worship -- but how I missed it.
Eventually I found the Unitarian Universalist Church and hovered in the back pews for over a year, fighting the fear that I would have to leave my mind at the door and affirm a belief statement someone else wrote. It threatened me beyond all measure, as scolding responses to reason and doubt had scarred me in Sunday school as a child.
(The UUC kept that part pretty secret, I thought, but I knew they'd spring it on me when I asked about membership.)
There was no such requirement. A kind gentleman with amazing crow's-feet invited me to sign my name in a book and gave me a pat on the back. With that gesture I was welcomed into a dynamic religious community that has inspired me and comforted me for the last 20 years.
I still fret about the "To Whom It May Concern" part when I pray, but I pray anyway. My faith in the strength and purpose of this community has grown very strong over the years. I can worship without words, or with an evolving script, and I know I am welcome, I am home.
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Anyway, thank you again, all of you. Thanks to you too Richard, for sharing your wonderful Bat Mitzvah words. That was a mitzvah! I bet many of us could only dream of a father or partner with humor and such love.
I think being on this board adds up to reading a good book, taking a long walk and making a new friend. Too bad you're not a believer because creating this board definitely gets you out of Hebrew purgatory, if there is such a thing. :)
(Penny: You crack me up. I too am terrified of cheerleaders. :lol: NO OFFENSE TO ANY HERE!)
Thank you every single one for holding space for me. I have just about worn myself out for the moment which is likely a good thing. (Hah.)
(Except to tell you that not only does my D want to see me, but she wants the whole week off with me and specifically said, I want to go to the beach with you. Well blow me over.)
love,
Hops
PPS--Supporting R's partner D was good this morning and I had a lot of help.
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I'm more triggered by cheerleaders than Christians
&
I too am terrified of cheerleaders
isn't that interesting, I read Penelope's comment as she was more into cheerleaders than Christians! I just thought it was part of the US culture of jollity and not wanting to be too serious!
Shows I need to look more closely at what I am reading though...
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sighhhhhh
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What is agnostic?
a(without or not)-gnosis(knowledge or to know).
One who believes it is impossible to prove or there is insufficient evidence for the existence of God or anything beyond the material world. By that definition Hops I would say you are more of a deist or pantheist than an agnostic.
As fas as the Trinity is concerned the word monotheism is not in the bible either but both doctrines are arrived at by a systematic theology that considers the whole of scripture.
I haven't got time to attribute them but just a few verses off the top of my head which support the trinity are;
Let us make man in Our image.
I and the Father are One.
Who has seen Me has seen the Father.
In Christ dwelleth the fullness of the Godhead bodily.
Before Abraham was I AM.
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God.
I baptize you in the name of the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit.
Sorry, but the Trinity is clearly and explicitly expressed in the bible.
mud
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Thanks for the thoughts, Mud. The tricky bit missing from your definition for me is what I added in bold, which is what I mean when I use the term agnostic to describe myself. Muzzy as my thoughts are, I have been thinking about my sense of truth for decades, so I don't want to use the term carelessly.
impossible to prove or there is insufficient evidence for or against the existence of God
To explain it better, I went to Wikipedia (though people could pull texts to debate who's correct about THIS or THAT theological bit until the Library of Congress fell on their heads, and I would be long gone picking daisies, or pushing them up...).
Historical and modern deism (from Latin: deus) is defined by the view that reason and logic, rather than revelation or tradition, should be the basis of belief in God. Deists reject both organized and revealed religion and maintain that reason is the essential element in all knowledge. For a "rational basis for religion" they refer to the cosmological argument (first cause argument), the teleological argument (argument from design), and other aspects of what was called natural religion. Deism has also come to be identified with the classical belief that God created but does not intervene in the world, though this is not a necessary component of deism.
That "should be" is, for me, to close the space of "not knowing". Which is sacred to me. (Have I given you a headache yet?). I don't reject both organized and revealed religion. I don't embrace them either, although I do embrace my church...hmm. Dang. Pretzel head. What I'm saying is I don't parse the texts of various UUs because the purposes and principles it declares suffice for me, and my real spiritual home is in the love and work of the community, not in a text. (My church has a self-parody about being "disorganized" religion...but that's not really true.) For a poet I'm pretty allergic to definiteness in words...or maybe that's "as a poet." Aha moment.
Pantheism (Greek: πάν ( 'pan' ) = all and Theos = God) literally means "God is All" and "All is God". It is the view that everything is of an all-encompassing immanent God; or that the universe, or nature, and God are equivalent. More detailed definitions tend to emphasize the idea that natural law, existence, and the universe (the sum total of all that is, was, and shall be) is represented or personified in the theological principle of 'God'.
That's much closer, but the "everything is" is not something I can declare as truth either. If there is a god that I can believe in that god would be love and only love, and I believe some things in the world/universe are not love. I don't know what evil is and maybe there's something else entirely gonig on, like entropy, but I wouldn't be capable of worshipping that even if I did have a revelation. So although I can acknowledge the reality of everything like a pantheist, so far, I can't see it all as good. And since I deeply believe that kindness and compassion are good, and lions eat antelopes that they don't kill kindly (iow, there is much in nature that my human heart identifies as cruel even if it's natural), I couldn't model my spiritual life purely after natural law.
Hmmm. This may be boring to read but it's very helpful to write.
Agnostic has been the best word I can use for myself for a long time now. Hope nobody will bother reading my rambles about it if they find it tedious. Right now I'm using this to avoid doing work I need to do. I am a terrible procrastinator.
Don't you hate it when you're in the middle of a confusing thriller and it's all pointless action for a while so you go to the bathroom and right then they begin some lengthy dialogue that actually explains the plot and you're just out of earshot? (That's not a theological question.)
Hops
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Well Hops,
I think we might be on the same page here...and bible quotes do NOTHING to convince me of anything since I don't subscribe to it.
I believe in something much more earthly and definately feminine (surprise huh?)
I get tired and have to admit somewhat triggered by all the christian talk, but I do have to admit that I think, with the exception of a very few, most christians are accepting and loving of others (and their beliefs) and quote bible verse as a means to offer hope and support to others.
Movinon
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Don't you hate it when you're in the middle of a confusing thriller and it's all pointless action for a while so you go to the bathroom and right then they begin some lengthy dialogue that actually explains the plot and you're just out of earshot?
:lol:
I get tired and have to admit somewhat triggered by all the christian talk
that reminds me what I was going to ask you Movinon- did you leave your church community? I remember you talking a lot about it at one time and hoping you would still be supported there.
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I was a child not even three I still remember the awe of the sacred universe before words.
What did Jesus say about a child's faith.
Everyone comes to their own view of the universe and thats what we are doing .
I see so much love and sharing and really you guys are smart. :D
I have learned a lot.This kind of caring is not what I grew up with .My heart is touched
by the love and kindness here.My gentle mom did try to show me the way.....
hugs to all ,
Moon
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Your higher self can be a bridge to God,in the Christian tradition there is a phrase "thy will be done".
Within that phrase is the concept of trust and acceptance
In the acceptance is the trust of the One.Also present is living life as it comes to you.
Though your higher self ,you can reach that which is called God.You can choose to access the Oneness ,the concept of God.
In a way your higher self is a path to the great energy of God.Universal Love
When you can trust your higher self and move into acceptance of "thy will be done"
then there can be discovery of the sacred in all
As I write these words they are a reminder to myself really.I was sharing my deepest understanding of what Faith means to me .
My faith needs no church ,dogma and my faith resides in my heart...............Each to his or her own beliefs .
MoonLight
NO PAINFUL EXPERIANCE OR LOSS HAS EVER EFFECTED MY FAITH IN GOD
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I like that, Moon. A lot.
Thank you!
((((Moon))))
Hops
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Hops - just want to check: did this post of mine upset you?
http://www.voicelessness.com/disc3/index.php?topic=2942.msg47874#msg47874
Did this one?
http://www.voicelessness.com/disc3/index.php?topic=2942.msg49810#msg49810
The source for the first is apparent; the source for the second, while a famous author, was also one of the greatest amateur theologians of her time and place.
I'm forming an impression that, although these seemed welcome at the time, they've become unwelcome in retrospect; so I'd like to be clear how best to proceed in future.
When others need comfort I share with them the words that I have found most suited to the occasion... those words aren't always mine. If you would prefer that I not share them because of their specific source, or the belief underlying them, let me know, and I will honor your request. That may mean that I stay silent, on occasion, when I would like to offer comfort, because the comfort I would most want to offer is unwelcome.
One thing I find very interesting: I am unchurched, by choice, after many attempts. It is precisely because, in my experience, most churches worship themselves; that is, the people worship the organization and its hierarchy. Sort of a clique exaltation system; and if ever a god had feet of clay, that one does.
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Oh nonononononononononnoooooooo, Stormy, I loved them.
They were very moving, and JUST right. Truly comforted me.
The lamentations really touched me, they were so "unsanitized."
Sure pure, human, ancient grief.
I'm so glad you asked. Heavens no, I don't mind when people quote from the Bible.
Anybody can quote from anything and I'm feeling quite all right now.
I think I just needed to raise my voice about other kinds of faith or faith quests.
And I did, and I felt very heard.
I'm really okay now.
You are a sweetheart for checking, though.
(((((Storm)))))
Hops (I tire of texts only when they're presented to me as The Truth, though I
respect that for many, if not most, people, they are.)
I'm watching/listening to Roy Orbison and Friends "Black & White"--wonderful way to start the day.
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I think I will stick to the topics about stalking and abuse. This could get really sticky when I happen to be one who will vehemently go against anything not involving the God I know personally.
All I can say is, may He reveal Himself as REAL to anyone here who is in doubt or against Him.
~Laura
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There's only one G_d Laura, one Spirit, I am convinced of that. And I'm also with Ghandi: G_d has no religion.
But you're right- there's no further dialogue once you've revealed 'your truth' if it goes against other people's. I think that's why it's really important to me that what I believe is very open- I don't think I know how to transcend that. I don't want to argue, even intellectually argue, if it will break someone's spirit ( as an aside some other parents think I am weak for taking the same approach with child-rearing ) or cause hurt. G_d is love to me, pure love, and anything that isn't that love isn't of G_d to me.
Something that is becoming more clear to me in everyday living: whose lesson is this?
Sometimes it's for me, but if it's for someone else then only they can learn it and it's not for me to teach/preach.
That's been a strange process unfolding during the disentangling from my ex- we were so enmeshed and that was my role then, and it's hard now for me to watch at a distance whilst he ties his life in knots and it's not my place to untangle them.
It's easier for me to step back from my son in that regard!
But it is a role I have taken a lot in trying to make sense of things; my life hasn't always made sense to me and it's only now I can see a bigger picture.
in my experience, most churches worship themselves
it's interesting, I've been to church after church and couldn't fit my beliefs to the behaviour or attitude of the people. I know what my theological beliefs are, and my relationship with G_d, but I just don't have the kind of transcending patience to be in a church without considerable compromise.
I do miss being part of a spiritual community so I've taken to nomad-ing around Houston's various faiths, of which there are numerous, and to taking long walks and communing with nature.
Prayer has gone from being a deliberate set-aside enterprise to a part of all experience and the revelation of the day.
But being part of a church takes me away from G_d not brings me closer so far.
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First of all, as much as my spelling it out GOD offends you, your leaving out part of His name offends me. We can agree to disagree here, but am stating my feelings anyway.
As far as there being one God, I'm not debating that.
As far as me being intolerant of others' beliefs, I guess if you consider that I believe hell is an actual real place that people who do not accept Jesus go to, then maybe you could understand my insistence of others not having other Gods nor beliefs.
That's life through my eyes
~Laura
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I think I have asked this question before but,
I believe hell is an actual real place that people who do not accept Jesus go
what happened to all the people who existed b.c.? Did they end up in Hell also, or did they get a free pass to Heaven because they didn't know any better? Just curious.
B.
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as much as my spelling it out GOD offends you, your leaving out part of His name offends me.
you misunderstand me Laura- I am a Christian so it doesn't offend me. But I am aware that Jewish people and some Christians do not spell it out or speak it so that it cannot be spoken blasphemously ( which it often is in my culture, an expostulation or used as curse word )
If I am writing to Christian people I know will not be offended, as I will be to my parents in law later, I would write it out. But I want to respect all faiths in an open forum.
what happened to all the people who existed b.c.? Did they end up in Hell also, or did they get a free pass to Heaven because they didn't know any better?
I've always been curious about the 'Jesus descended to hell' bit of the apostles creed too.
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Brigid,
That's a tough question, often also applied to infants and the mentally incompetent.
I believe a God of mercy makes provision for those who have no way of finding Him or hearing of Him.
Paul directly addresses those who were capable of knowing when he discusses justification by faith. Abraham lived long before Christ but was justified by his faith. Paul goes on to say that those who lived before Christ were without excuse, because they had a choice between worshipping a Creator or His creation. The implication being that those who worshipped a Creator rather than the various pagan nature 'gods' were justified by their faith.
And in the book of Hebrews the 'heroes of faith' all lived prior to Christ.
There is also the statement by Peter that after His crucifxion Christ went and preached to the souls of Noah's time. This is one of the bases of the 'Jesus descended to hell' doctrine.
It seems to me that God provides an opportunity to every person to make a choice, and for those who are unable He provides as well.
Hops,
If you want to be called an agnostic that's OK by me. Most of your posts seem to acknowledge a supernatural realm so I guess I have overlooked those where you do not.
reallyme,
then maybe you could understand my insistence of others not having other Gods nor beliefs.
I respectfully submit that it is God's job to insist others not have other gods or beliefs, not ours. We are only to present the gospel; what they do with it is between them and God.
There, I've told Christians, agnostics and those somewhere in between what to think. My work here is done. :P :?
mud
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mud, then I respectfully submit that you might remove the book of Psalms from the Bible, since David says "haven't I HATED those who hate You." (toward God)
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My work here is done
:lol:
remove the book of Psalms from the Bible
I'd take out the Book of Revelation myself, I can recognise psychosis when I read it! :)
And Rev 22:19- oh dear, what a sad mistake.
Fortunately people haven't stopped adding their wisdom down the ages, we just have to search for it. Maybe in some other time The Bible ( Greek word for Book ) will be added to again.
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RM,
The bible also says David murdered Uriah and bedded his wife. Not every sentiment expressed in the bible is Godly, even by those with a heart after His.
We are to seek the whole counsel of God. And that whole cousel shows that we are not to hate others nor 'insist' that they worship as we do.
mud
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may God forgive you
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Mud,
Thank you for the thoughtful response. I knew I could count on you to at least give me some insight into a true biblical perspective. Remind me to NEVER debate religion with you. :wink:
Hugs,
B.
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Hi everyone,
To add one more dimension to Hop’s topic:
There is increasing evidence that religious faith (at least in adults) is, to a significant degree, an inherited trait. See, for example, http://www1.umn.edu/umnnews/Feature_Stories/Religious_faith_may_be_genetic.html .
Best,
Richard
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HI ALL ,
I was born in a home of complete "religious freedom".
My mother born in the south was raised on hell and brimstone stuff and
"you will go to hell if you do not get straight A's.
My gentle mom told me if there was one thing she was going to do right it was not burden her children with this kind of religion and she did not.
I and my twin and I were raised in the same home we were different in many ways.
I searched many religions for over 25 years of reading.My twin had no such interest in religion.
I now do not hold religion as an answer.But I still hold the heartfelt reverence for the cosmos.The inner vastness and what we think of as outer vastness.I see the beauty and I am in awe................................................
MoonLight
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Richard,
I guess I'm being a little boneheaded here, but isn't it just as likely that her evidence is really saying that people who are gentically identical would more likely react similarly to parental input than those who are not gentically identical? That hardly seems earth shattering nor would it justify categorizing religious faith as 'inherited'.
mud
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Or one day scientists may find some DNA GOD code in the molecules and cells of our bodies.
ONE day in that case the message would be the same Universal.
Interesting ideas I still am in awe of a higher power.
What message would God put in our DNA?
Moon
this idea comes from a book called the God Code
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Hi Mud,
From the article:
"Upbringing played a large part in determining respondents' degree of faith early in life. But as respondents became adults, genetics became a dominant factor, either strengthening or reducing the role of religion in their lives. Koenig drew her conclusions based on the fact that identical twins, who share all their inherited genes, have similar degrees of faith in adulthood, while fraternal twins, who share half their inherited genes, tend to deviate in religiousness as they become adults."
So, take the hypothetical family where there are four children, one set of identical twins and one set of fraternal twins. The study suggests that when the children are young all four will have a similar degree of religious faith—due to upbringing. However, when the children become adults, the two who are identical are more likely to have similar degrees of religious faith than the fraternal twins who are more likely to vary on this dimension. This suggests that genetics is contributing to degree of religious faith in a significant way.
I say “suggests” because identical twins may influence the world (parents, teachers, peers, etc.) to respond more similarly to them than fraternal twins do. For example, if the identical twins in this example both have attention deficit, hyperactivity disorder due to a genetic factor, the world may respond to them in a particular way—influencing their future beliefs, attitudes, etc. Whereas, (let’s say in this example) only one of the fraternal twins has ADHD due to genetic factors--then the two get responded to differently, and their beliefs, attitudes, etc. may vary later in life. This would be an alternative explanation of the same data.
The author probably feels the first explanation is more likely given the similar degree of religious faith among all four as children. Similar religious faith suggests similar response from parents, at least on this dimension.
We should also note that this was a study of only males—not females. I haven’t seen the original study, so this is the best critique I can do.
I hope this helps,
Richard
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thanks, hops.
I'm a Christian, but have Jewish ancestors on my mother's side. My will divides my estate, if there is one at the material time ;-), among the Christian peace churches and Yad Vashem [after making provision for the care of any surviving pets].
I don't evangelize for three reasons, all of which I must emphasize are my reasons, not anything I'm advocating to anyone else.
One, first and foremost, is that I'm simply not credible. I'm much much too flawed and damaged to be a poster child for the transforming power of anything [except the negative transforming power of prolonged emotional abuse, which I wouldn't recommend to anyone ever]. And I know it. I'd be a counter-advertisement to anything I ever tried to sell on that basis. Assuming I could manage to get even one sentence out without laughing myself silly at the sheer nerve of it, for me.
Next, and this is controversial, I - personally! this is just me talking now, and only my opinion! - have always been ill at ease with anything that feels to me like 'marketing God'. Even a whiff of deity-as-commodity is enough to make me head for the hills. That's partly why I've been unable to find a church; church-as-commodity affects me the same way. I'd have made a lovely Welsh or Irish anchoress, around say 1200, but I don't do well at all in the here and now, with this attitude of mine.
Third, and this is really the rock-bottom core of it for me: that free will thingy. I have read the Old and New Testaments through from Gen 1:1 to Rev 22:21, in multiple translations and paraphrases, and the one thing I find constant throughout is that free will thing. To me, it is the whole point of the whole thing. We were created free to choose. We remain free to choose. If one looks at the gospels one does not see Y'shua ben Yosef engaged in compulsion; one sees teaching, informing, frustrated impatience at times, but huge amounts of forbearance and the kind of love that extends itself and serves. He never tried to force anyone to believe anything. He simply told them things, behaved consistently with what he taught, and left it to them to choose.
If I can put it this way, it appears - to me - that Christ himself considered human freedom to be sacred. Of course, psychologically, there are sound reasons for this: a choice made under compulsion, whether brainwashing or the desire to impress one's boyfriend, is no choice at all. It is unlikely ever to be internalized... which is why cults are so rigid and authoritarian! ... but the bottom line is, if I have understood all this aright, then our freedom is sacred, even to God! -- and in that context, the making of some choices are really much more like sacraments than like anything else.
Thanks for letting me get this off my chest. It seemed like the appropriate time and place. I prefer to talk freely of what I believe, but that is because it would be both dishonest and disingenuous for me to do otherwise, especially here where the link between healing and belief is so brightly illuminated as we work together.
It is up to others to decide for themselves how much of my talk is reflected in my walk, and what that signifies.
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You know? It is a miracle that I have decided to be a Christian. The model of Christianity that I had to endure my whole early life was based on hell fire and brimstone. I was raised that drinking was a sin. I remember the first few times I was in a bar I was sure the rapture would occur and I would be left behind!!!!! Going to church was a thing we did - no questions, we were there. I think I mentioned in an earlier thread that I always felt like there was this club - and everyone at church knew what was going on but I didn't..............I just couldn't figure all that out. So funny, I went into Christian retailing..................I started being exposed to books and different authors. And let me say this, there are a whole bunch of quacks out there!~!!! But I started reading books from men like Erwin McManus, and John Eldrege. Brian McLaren and Rob Bell. Then I met my next door neighbors - early thirties. Totally cool. I realized, all these men think like I think. John Eldrege says something like this.............."I cannot believe that heaven is going to be like a church social in a church basement drinking koolaid out of styrofoam cups........." Something about that statement picqued my interest..............that's it!! I cannot live eternity in a church basement!! There is a whole new generation of Christians who have thrown out the typical church service and the religiousity of their parents' and grandparents' Christianity. It's all about relationship. It's all about peace and love and forgiveness. It's totally different than the Christianity that is modeled to me day in and day out by my pretentious nmom...............even my daughter's friend said to me that my mom thinks she is a Christian but is so judgmental........and yes, that is a part of it. She thinks you have to look and act a certain way in order to be...............well, it's bologna and I know it. So I strive for that understanding of God..................it's a new way to look at it.
Books.................A New Kind of Christian and Generous Orthodoxy by Brian McLaren.................Sacred Romance, Journey of Desire, Wild at Heart, Captivating by John Eldrege.........................Velvet Elvis by Rob Bell........................(and his Nooma DVDs...awesome.........)........Uprising by Erwin McManus (also Barbarian Way and another one which he changed the title to and I can't remember....) So many new thoughts (or maybe they are old thoughts that have been morphed by the ages......)
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This is so lovely.
I am LOVING everyone's thoughtful contributions here.
Hops
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Thanks Richard.
But I still am not sure what the significance is.
It seems pretty logical that our genetics would have some determination in how we respond to our parents. The study for instance, as far as I can tell, does not say that identical twins are more or less likely to follow their parents beliefs only that those who do tend to follow them together more often than fraternal twins. Well that's hardly a revelation. I imagine that if one identical twin learns to eat cheeseburgers from his or her father then his twin is more likely to follow suit than a pair of fraternal twins. Of course identical twins are more likely to be alike than fraternal. They are more alike.
Correlation is not causation.
mud
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Hops,
You have lights blinking all over this cyber ship. Great thread. Wonderful discussions. I love the level of sanity in it all. :D
teartracks
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Wow. TT. Thank you.
I feel the same about the board...in waves. Some great surges of depth and respect.
Just love it.
Hey Monsieur Mudde Mon Ami,
As I follow it (if I do) such a discovery about a genetic propensity toward faith wouldn't undermine the power or mystery of any belief. Because if it's revelation and miracle, and all part of creation, then the creator would have a hand in the design of those folks who find the path to religion easier, or harder, to follow. Just as such a creator would have a hand in frogs, bakers, cows, dinoaurs, jaguars, and farmers. IOW, incomprehensible diversity. So learning more about human similarities and diversities...would just be...more. Not less. Not taking away.
Hops
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(((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((HOPS))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
WHAT A MIND So well done by all.................................. at the end of the day how do we prove our faith?
MoonLight
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at the end of the day how do we prove our faith?
:)
A friendly study of the world's religions is a sacred duty.
Mahatma Ghandi
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Hi Hops,
What I'm trying to say is all the study in question indicates is that identical twins have a propensity to respond to stimuli in the same way, not that there is a genetic propensity toward faith. Identical twins have a propensity to respond to most if not all stimuli similarly. It seems clear that if one identical twin tends to accept the faith of his or her parents then the other one does as well. All that shows is that identical twins tend to be similar.
To be truly genetic in nature, in the sense of inheriting some propensity toward faith, you would have to demonstrate that people who come from long lines of spiritual people tend to be spiritual themselves and you would have to show that this was not the result of environment. I'm not sure how that could be done, I doubt that it could. The other method would be identifying a gene which predisposes certain people to faith. Not too likely a prospect I don't think.
I'm not arguing against this twin study because I think it 'undermines the power or mystery of any belief.' I just don't think the information presented represents what the article in question said it did. It seems like pretty questionable science to be charitable. Most scientists and grad students are fairly good at collecting data. Its the conclusions and inferences drawn from them that usually cause the problems.
at the end of the day how do we prove our faith?
We're supposed to live it not prove it. When the day is done is when we get our proof.
mud
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Thanks MP--
Mud, I would like to make you a statue of The Thinker..in mud!
I so hope things are going peacefully with you and Mrs. Mud and there's strength for the day.
Hops
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Hi Mud and All,
I must say when the idea of "twin studies" were brought into this conversation I got triggered.
When I and my twin were growing up we were spoken of as the "twins".
We even thought of ourselves as one person especially as kids.
Also twin studies to me brings up other historical twin studies that were cruel and I end up thinking of that room of terror and our own Dr. of terror our N dad.
SO THATS WHAT I WAS FEELING,even reading about twin studies scares me.
But scientifically proving My faith or anyones is not necessary or the point as Mud says about Faith :
We're supposed to live it not prove it. When the day is done is when we get our proof.
This is so true
Moon
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You proved what a good heart is to me, Moon.
I would have loved your brother just as much.
(((((((((((((((((((((Moon's dear Twin, Happy and Laughing)))))))))))))))))))))))))))
(((((((((((((((((((((((Moon her Ownself Who is Super-Wonderful))))))))))))))))))))))
Hops
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Write,
Sorry I didn't get to your question until now - being off the board. The community I spoke about was not church-based at all. I have taken them off of a pedistal and put them where they belong - on an equal playing field. I guess you can say I've CHOSEN to remove my rose-colored glasses.
Thanks for asking.
Movinon
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I have taken them off of a pedistal and put them where they belong - on an equal playing field. I guess you can say I've CHOSEN to remove my rose-colored glasses.
good for you!
Someone said elsewhere on this thread about churches worshipping themselves and sometimes it's true, but when you're struggling a good church is one where people bring you dinner, listen to you, and hold you in their private prayers.
I know you're having a difficult time right now sorting things out, I saw your thread about mediation. I have Lundy Bancroft's WHy Does He Do that: inside the mind of angry and controlling men' and I would want a lawyer or mediator on my behalf knowing about that model of abuse and the way it escalates in response to imposed authority; pm me if you want me to pass it on.
Don't worry too much about money- other people here will tell you they have coped that way knowing it's a small price to let go of for their peace.
Focus on your health and well-being and a workable framework so you don't have to keep seeing him and going over and over all the stress.
((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((()))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
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but when you're struggling a good church is one where people bring you dinner, listen to you, and hold you in their private prayers
Very true, write.
Our's has been very supportive through my wife's illness.
mud
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Our's has been very supportive through my wife's illness.
That's wonderful Mud.
How is your wife?
***
I removed my 'rose-coloured glasses' with my last church when I got sick and the minister didn't care. She really didn't, it was strange, the persona she wore in public was very different to how she was in private. Not many people liked her because of the difference, she was impossible to feel close too. Far too young for ministry if you ask me! She was joined by another minister, he was equally uncaring. My friend told me he ignored her cries for help with her grandson a year ago and she went to him recently and said 'remember that?' He said 'oh yes, I didn't know what to do. I was meaning to get back to you.' She said 'well don't bother, he's in prison now!'
I smiled when she told me, I know she's a beautiful person who will wait to make her point, but I wonder sometimes how much damage poor ministry does when people are vulnerable. We hear these messages in church but unless the love is real and people are prepared to back it up with their actions it's not only meaningless- it's really painful when you need to ask for support and aren't heard.
Funny- I got an invite back to that church this week. Haven't been on their mailing list before, no idea who put me on there...
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How is your wife?
She's on a roller coaster but the trend is up not down. One day she is feeling strong, the next the anemia makes her weak or she has pain. But overall she is much better than she was. She starts her second round of chemo next Tuesday. Other than the slight anemia and the fatigue that goes with it, she has tolerated the chemo extremely well with almost no nausea.
mud
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Good for her!
And you too, Mud.
You give "husband" a good name...you do honor to it.
Hops
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She's on a roller coaster but the trend is up not down. One day she is feeling strong, the next the anemia makes her weak or she has pain. But overall she is much better than she was. She starts her second round of chemo next Tuesday. Other than the slight anemia and the fatigue that goes with it, she has tolerated the chemo extremely well with almost no nausea.
sounds like a roller coaster for you too.
I remember someone telling me years ago, with a tender look towards her husband at the other side of the room 'it's harder for him'.
When I think of you upon my bed, through the night watches I will recall
That you indeed are my help Psalm 63