Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Certain Hope on August 23, 2006, 02:28:44 PM
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Dear Pennyplant and all,
Not wanting to interrupt the conversation between you and Anansi on the other thread, it seemed best to begin another based on this:
People can tell when I'm uncomfortable or struggling or whatever, and they apparently can also tell that I'll be just fine and will carry on anyway and they can then be free to use their finite resources on more pressing problems. I save a lot of people a lot of effort in this way. And I have been doing this to myself all my entire life! But I never before saw it so clearly.
Also with no sarcasm whatsoever... your statement has brought me to see that this has been a recurrent theme in my life, as well.
I started to say that it's not been the predominant story, but maybe that's simply because I've never been able to recognize it before. I don't know whether or not I can even express what I'm now seeing, but I'm afraid that if I don't try, it may slip away from me. I think it's different from that to which you are awakening, and yet connected in a way that may help us both (and others?) if we can take a closer look at the underlying features.
As the self-appointed people pleaser and fixer of all, I know that my own needs often went unmet. Because I felt that my own insights and emotions were so different, more intense, with so much more impact on me than what I'd see evidenced in the demeanor of others, I often felt like a foreigner in a strange land, unable to speak the language. (Small talk has never been my interest, either. I think because it's so often appeared to me to be nothing but shallow and vain, phony, a cover up for all that which the parties involved seek to keep hidden.) Above all, I think that I was afraid of my own neediness. This has come to light for me recently as I've recognized how important it is to me to feel secure and protected within intimate relationships. If I need, then I'm at risk. If I deny my needs, then I'm expected to be able to accept behaviors which leave me feeling empty and taken for granted. If I confront my needs and express them openly, then I am naked in the face of ridicule. Suddenly I am a child again, running for the cover of ... a martyred sort of self-sufficient competency yet running on fumes, my emotional tank empty. Is this registering with you at all?
For me, I've been "mom" to so many kids (and men, and coworkers, and family members, and friends), called upon to help them find, sort through, express, and receive fulfillment of ... their emotions, my own have been left in the dust. I can't tell you how many times I've heard the words, "You are such a strong person." <insert sarcastic remark here> Do you know, I don't think that this has ever once been said to me as a genuine complement? If it has, I've missed it. When I think back, it's always been received by me as a dismissal. What I hear is, "You can manage so much better than I... let me tell you all about how rough it is for those of us who are weak." And the beat goes on.
I don't know where you'll go with this next, Pennyplant, but I'm eager to join with you in the journey. For now, I am temporarily suspended in the light of this newfound knowledge... not that I'm weak (this is not a new insight) but that there has been an internal battle within my self for so very long, between wanting to be seen for who I really am and needing to protect that little needy one from those who would once again give her the bum's rush through to "grow up and deal with it". All of my life, I think I've been thrown in with people who for various reasons could not or would not express emotions or any sort of need. Going right on down the list, every intimate contact has practiced one or another method of avoidance... hey'd sulk, they'd isolate, they'd throw a tantrum, they'd aggress passively... and I'd stand and take it. No more. God knows I can't do it anymore.
Much love, Pennyplant.. thank you for sharing your moment in the light. I trust that this is only the beginning.
Hope
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Dear Hope,
These words of yours jumped out at me:
For me, I've been "mom" to so many kids (and men, and coworkers, and family members, and friends), called upon to help them find, sort through, express, and receive fulfillment of ... their emotions, my own have been left in the dust. I can't tell you how many times I've heard the words, "You are such a strong person."
I have to say that I am a little weary of people thinking I am so strong and that I will get through a crisis without any help or support from them. I want right now to be weak and needy. I want someone else to mother me for a change. Pathetic perhaps, but true. However, there is no one to fill that role now anymore than there was 3 years ago when I needed it.
What I have found difficult too, is feeling as though I am entitled to have feelings of my own and to put myself first. I was just starting to feel as though I had earned some time to myself when my marriage fell apart and I once again had to enter rescue mode and give all my efforts to protecting the kids through the divorce.
In my new relationship, I have allowed myself some selfish moments, but not without the accompanying guilt of neglecting my duties as a parent. Now that my daughter is leaving, I feel guilty about not having lined up a string of important things to do so as not to look lazy or uninvolved. I now have to recreate my life once again and I honestly don't know what to do.
Brigid
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Dear Brigid,
I have to say that I am a little weary of people thinking I am so strong and that I will get through a crisis without any help or support from them. I want right now to be weak and needy. I want someone else to mother me for a change.
That doesn't sound a bit pathetic to me, and I really do not think that's because I am feeling much the same way.
It does seem as though each time there's a prospect of living a semblance of a "normal" life, some circumstance (which I've generally viewed as a ridiculous/dangerous/havoc-engendering action by someone besides me) throws me back into survival mode.
It's tiresome indeed. I'm discovering that I've been emotionally "checked out" for some time, simply because all of those feelings got in the way of taking my next breath and not going under the water. But now, after two years of marriage to my current husband, old desires to lean on someone else have been reawakened and... they're frightening.
That aside, I understand what you mean by this, too: "In my new relationship, I have allowed myself some selfish moments, but not without the accompanying guilt of neglecting my duties as a parent." My 2nd daughter finished high school and left home a year ago. Her circumstances, including the guy with whom she's involved, are far from ideal and this brings plenty of "What if(s)" to mind.
But Brigid, I'm not sure of the meaning of this: Now that my daughter is leaving, I feel guilty about not having lined up a string of important things to do so as not to look lazy or uninvolved.
Because of your closing sentence, I'm thinking that you mean a list of goals for yourself to accomplish now that your nest is empty.
Or are you also suffering regrets involving some unfinished business with your daughter who is going on to pursue her own life?
These crossroads in life bring out such feelings of being torn asunder, I know... and the pressure seems to be on immediately to "make it work" ... make it productive. I'm in the "terrible twos" of my third marriage, with a 15 and 10 year old who went from having mom all to themselves to being required to deal with N for 3 years... and now this...
Not that "this" is bad, but they certainly have no reason to expect it to do well, you know.
Expectations.
Maybe that is what this is all about. Are these changes re-opening old wounds from unmet expectations? Did we have visions at one time long ago of where we might be at this stage of life? In my mid-40s now, I'll be 55 when my son completes high school and honestly, there's been so much upheaval in our family over the years, I never had an opportunity to consider the future. Too busy trying to survive the present and even when there was a short-lived lull, 4 kids, down to 3, and now 2... presented plenty of opportunity to keep busy just managing the household.
I don't know about recreating life, Brigid. Maybe it's more like rediscovering. Not to get back to who you (we) were at one time, but to take a good, long look at who we've become, always keeping hope in view. Regrets, unmet expectations, so many challenges... and now, for you, a bit more solitude.... with nothing left to be distracted from, perhaps, leaving a sense of decisions needing to be made. But do they really need to be made now? Or just continue doing "the next thing" and wait to see what develops? I don't know, but I'll be right next to you trying to sort it out.
Much love and hugs, Brigid,
Hope
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Hi Brigid,
I feel for you. Suddenly the stage is deserted, all the young actors have dashed off to their next auditions, the lighting crew is shutting down the lights--snap, snap-- and you're looking at the stage, seeing the ordinary wood planks that are the floor, the ordinary dirt that's collected in the hem of the curtain. You have a discarded costume over your arm and you've realized...show's over.
It's not true!!! There are new plays, new acts, even new players to look forward to! You'll meet your D's new friends now and then, get updates on her adventures, go visit. One day, she might place a plump grandbaby on your knee.
But all that's later. Now it's time for you to accept the emptiness of the empty stage. Lean into it, listen to it, and stop fearing it. It's very different from a busy full stage with action, dialogue, scene changes and audience laughter... but it's still real, B. This is just another piece of time. Maybe what's hard is that you have nothing to direct.
Know what? It's okay. Let the other plays go on in other theaters. Just try to find some peace in this stillness.
This really jumped out at me:
to do so as not to look lazy or uninvolved
look that way to whom?
I don't know the answer but I bet it's an important question.
love,
Hops
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Hi Hope,
I wanted to ask you if my questions are welcome, if you'd like a comment from me...
(if not please know that I am not going to take offense).
thanks,
Hops
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Hope,
Thank you for starting a thread about this. It is a big one for me. It is actually one of the central questions of my life--how can people tell that it is okay to dismiss me, leave me on my own, never really connect with me? Well, I guess the real question for me is, why don't I matter all that much? It is all I have ever known. To have a piece of that question laid to rest is a really big deal.
As I just posted on the other thread, it is disappointing as well, though. I fantasized that at some point in time my biggest problem in life might be how to juggle my appointment book!!! Instead, my next challenge is more like what Brigid has expressed. What do I work on now that I have entered my middle years and nobody really needs me all that much? I too am tired of it always being assumed that I am strong enough to handle anything that life throws at me. I don't think I am any better at that than anybody else is. But others seem to get a lot more support along the way. I resent that. I survive and get past these problems because there is no other option. I'm not going to roll over and die because everybody at work thinks it's always okay for me to be the one who does the dirty work all the time even though there is a person junior to me. I'm not going to roll over and die because I didn't get invited to the lunch that was planned right in front of me. But it gets mighty tiresome to have to be that strong all the time.
It is good that I know my part in it. I can fix that. But I don't want to become wary and paranoid and stodgy because of protecting my interests. I will, however, find a way to protect myself better now, because I sure don't want to go back to the old way.
Much of your post resonates with me, and Brigid, yours as well. So, now I do feel less alone about this, more valued. I hope that I can start liking me better because of this new direction. It's going to be interesting I think. It truly feels like I made it through a big obstacle. The emotions of anger, sadness, disappointment are just going to have to exist for awhile, maybe until the next step comes along.
Okay, it's just about getting to be bedtime for me. Good night, everyone.
PP
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Hi Pennyplant,
You are most welcome. Initially, I recognized that it's a factor for me, too... and after reading your response on the other thread, I realize just how big an item it is. I sense alot of resentment in that post, too, and it echos a great deal of what I've been feeling lately in my personal life. Boxing may not be such a bad idea... for me, at least.
You know, I wonder whether these others who seem to get all this support are really feeling all that supported by it?
I mean, at times I would definitely appreciate a shoulder on which to cry; but after awhile, that other part of me comes along to say, "you know what you really need even more is a kick in the pants!" And maybe that swift kick is just as big a part of what others don't recognize is necessary at times as a comforting arm... when we appear most often to be so strong and "in charge"?
Can't really blame others for not meeting our needs if we never admit that we have any, can we? I have a terrible time with this, along with a very strong "I'd rather do it myself" attitude which alternates with a silent cry of "helllpppppppppp me". I can tell that this is going to require alot more direct talk and self-examination to sort through, but whatever it takes, it's got to be done.
And Pennyplant, there are alot of things I've never picked up on that "everyone else" seems to just "get". It's such an odd combination of insight and naivete that often leaves me bewildered. I can only think that there must be some aura that's given off.. and this was even before I became a Christian.. like a signal flasher... to N it seems to say, "Easy target" and to others, "Unavailable; don't waste your time". It's not invisibility, exactly... more like irrelevance.
Sleep well.
Hope
P.S. Hops, I don't know why you're asking me this. Of course, all are free to comment at will.
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Jac,
Considering puttin up the "do not disturb" sign ovah hee-uh :P :)
Love you,
Hope
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Dear Hope and Hops,
I write this through my tears of gratitude for your kind words. I know you both have experienced this same shift in roles and the pain connected to it.
You both asked about my comment regarding feeling guilty at not having lined up important things to do. I guess it comes from all the years I gave more hours than I could count to leadership roles in the community and my kids' schools. The PTA's and fundraising balls I ran, the boards I sat on, etc.; and just when I thought I could take some time off, have some fun, work in my garden and enjoy my home in the country, I found out my marriage was ending and I would have to sell my country home. The last three years have been spent moving, readjusting, making more changes and healing. It's time to make another major change, but I'm finding it overwhelming after all the other major changes that have taken place.
There is no one making me feel guilty but me. Every time someone asks me now what I do, I no longer have an answer that makes sense. I used to be able to say that I was a stay-at-home mom, but that job has been downsized from full-time, to part-time to now that of an out-of-town consultant. I know there are dozens of places where I could go and be a volunteer, but I have that been there, done that attitude. I am ready to be employed again, but I don't know what it is I would like to do. I'm stuck.
Anyway, thank you for listening and sympathyzing. It is nice to feel that arm over my shoulder.
Love and hugs,
Brigid
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((((((((((Brigid)))))))) You're not stuck, just in the pit stop (no, not da pits) airing up tires, checking fluid levels, and preparing to rejoin the race :)
Much love,
Hope
P.S. If you get really bored, we have a wild-eyed 15 1/2 year old who needs a place to practice driving with her new permit :shock:
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Hi Hope,
Thanks. I'm running out of steam so I'll cut and paste and hope it might be useful:
old desires to lean on someone else have been reawakened and... they're frightening.
I understand this. I think it's why I've been divorced 11 years (or is it 12, can't remember) and only now am I starting to imagine a partnership...my fear was crippling my ability to see.
I wanted to ask, what does this do to you?
Can't really blame others for not meeting our needs if we never admit that we have any, can we? I have a terrible time with this, along with a very strong "I'd rather do it myself" attitude which alternates with a silent cry of "helllpppppppppp me".
Another question I had, you mentioned "critical spirit" somewhere else...I have done that, or used to a lot. I think it occurred to me eventually that it was terror. If I always found something to criticize, I could hold my shell together. It took some horrendous pain before I realized how distorted I'd become.
I think you've had pain like that too.
And I want to wish you peace in your marriage...true peace.
(I just watched a PBS show on an adult with severe Down's Syndrome--I think it was called "The Teachings of Jon"...and I kept being fascinated by his parents. They looked like almost the happiest couple I'd ever seen.)
The Teachings of Jon follows the journey of one family, and how the “family secret” locked away in an institution for the first seven years of his life became the powerful silent teacher of kindness and reverence.
This documentary shows what it’s really like to live with someone like Jon in heart-warming detail. Jon’s parents, a psychiatrist and psychotherapist, share how having Jon catalyzed a complete change of values and how he taught them about good mental health. The siblings share what it was like growing up with a brother who has severe mental retardation; how they had to learn how to communicate with him and the positive effect he has had on all of their lives.
Though the story is told in a unique cinematic light-hearted style, The Teachings of Jon ponders the serious questions of how we value other human beings and what is truly important in life.
Hope you'll enjoy it if you get a chance to see it. It's lingering in my mind a lot.
Night,
Hops
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Hello all,
I am just going to piggyback on this thread with something I saw on the other thread. PP mentioned that small talk seemed useless, or something similar. I always thought so too, but now I think that small talk is a way to sort of take the temperature of the participants in the conversation before launching into anything too deep or exciting.
For example, if you burst out during the small talk foreplay, with some awful revelation, some wonderful news, or some space age insight, that is communicating much more than if you wait until an appropriate time in the conversation. It could be saying that the issue is so pressing that you have to share now, or it could appear that you lack the social skills, consideration, or patience to wait until you see how the other person is feeling or what they have on their mind before spilling yours.
I think it is a good idea to give each participant in the conversation a chance to bring up a very pressing issue before launching into anything less pressing. For example, let the other person tell you that they were laid off or their mother died, before you tell them about the horrendous traffic you endured or your new highlights.
I am only saying this after years, no decades, of ignoring social protocol because in my big head, I thought I knew better. I have to say, that no one was worse than I on this. No one.
a reformed
Plucky
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you get to see how much that person is really listening to you or if they're listening to you at all.
Yes. I hadn't thought of that. True!
Plucky
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Hi Plucky,
What you've said about "small talk" makes alot of sense to me. As Pennyplant expressed, I've never felt that I was very good at it or had any appreciation of it, but from what you've said here, I can see the value of checking the temp of each person involved before initiating a deeper conversation. I'm thinking that part of my resistance to small talk in general is that it so often has appeared to me to be cliche, meaningless, phony, a shallow encounter with no substance. But thinking of it as a form of foreplay, a preliminary to what may be a potentially deeper conversation, makes good sense. If the other person appears distracted or does have some more pressing news to tell, this could be an open invitation to getting that out on the table if they feel like discussing it. And Plucky, I'd bet that I rank at least a close second on ignoring social protocol because I thought I knew better. My husband is one who really values the smaller interchanges and if I neglect them (which I tend to do), he feels neglected, so... I'm in the process of reforming over here.... thanks for the reminder!
Jac,
Sometimes people project themselves onto you in a conversation, and they're not really relating to you at all
Bingo!
When every single contribution to a conversation is only an attempt to bring things back around to themselves, I quickly lose interest. This is an issue I've addressed on numerous occasions with my children, although it's natural in a kid to be so self-occupied. Naturally, I want to hear all of their stories and views and theories, but I've had to make a point of reminding them that it's necessary to also give time and space for the person who's listening to make a contribution. On the flip side of that, we've had plenty of opportunities to discuss the rudeness of interrupting a serious conversation between two people or a small group with something insignificant or unrelated, simply for the purpose of refocusing everyone's attention on them! I understand that children may begin to feel invisible when they're not included in adult discussion, but I'm trying to show them (particularly 10 year old son) that they don't have to have something to say about everything and they don't really disappear just because they haven't been heard from for a few minutes. I guess that's all about self-control and the ability to wait one's turn, maintain civility, and sometimes simply listen without having to comment. I know some adults who need to re-learn these same conversational guidelines and refrain from imposing their views on everyone within earshot. I am one of them :wink: Still trying to strike a balance there and all of this is so helpful!
Hope
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Jac,
The best advice my therapist ever gave me is if I don't know what to do it's okay to wait until I do. Be kind to yourself and patient.
Thanks--I'm trying to be patient, honestly I am. I do keep thinking that the perfect thing will present itself when the time is right, BUT there is that nagging thing in the back of my mind saying "you know that only you will take care of you, and YOU must make something happen."
I always jokingly say my super hero cape is neatly folded in the top of my linen closet. I used to do it all by myself, but now I simply won't. It's a great relief really.
Good for you. :D I think mine is currently laying in a heap on my closet floor (just in case and since I don't have a phone booth close by), but maybe it is time to put it away for good.
Hugs,
Brigid
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BUT there is that nagging thing in the back of my mind saying "you know that only you will take care of you, and YOU must make something happen."
Brigid,
Maybe taking care of you right now, is just giving yourself some slack. You need some adjustment time for all the changes in your life. You are not a machine. You can't just adjust some levers and switch on again.
Plucky
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You know, I wonder whether these others who seem to get all this support are really feeling all that supported by it?
I mean, at times I would definitely appreciate a shoulder on which to cry; but after awhile, that other part of me comes along to say, "you know what you really need even more is a kick in the pants!" And maybe that swift kick is just as big a part of what others don't recognize is necessary at times as a comforting arm... when we appear most often to be so strong and "in charge"?
Can't really blame others for not meeting our needs if we never admit that we have any, can we? I have a terrible time with this, along with a very strong "I'd rather do it myself" attitude which alternates with a silent cry of "helllpppppppppp me". I can tell that this is going to require alot more direct talk and self-examination to sort through, but whatever it takes, it's got to be done.
Yes, CH, this is so true about "the kick in the pants". It seems like many people stay stuck in a place that could have been "so easy" to leave behind (and it feels very unfair to say that! Nothing is easy for anybody. It take a long time to be able to see what the problem is before it can even be solved!). But still so many people seem stuck. I guess the "kick in the pants" is different for everybody.
Sometimes I feel guilty or like I'm wallowing when I let myself unburden to someone else. Sometimes it seems obvious the other person is worn out with it. Then it's just embarrassing.
One of the main reasons I don't ask for help very often or very well, is that history tells me the answer will be "No". And that hurts so much for some reason! It feels like a personal rejection. Now it seems like it will feel like something else. If they say "No" or the actions indicate "No" it might just be bad timing, their inability, or not my turn. It seems like it could feel less personal somehow. Less "just because it's me" asking.
That's a big deal. That can change so much in my life.
And Pennyplant, there are alot of things I've never picked up on that "everyone else" seems to just "get". It's such an odd combination of insight and naivete that often leaves me bewildered. I can only think that there must be some aura that's given off.. and this was even before I became a Christian.. like a signal flasher... to N it seems to say, "Easy target" and to others, "Unavailable; don't waste your time". It's not invisibility, exactly... more like irrelevance
Yes, yes, I recognize this too. Maybe it's not so much that other people get it, maybe it's that they don't care so much, don't worry about it so much, and so by the next day, it's a new day and they just go on relating to others from the viewpoint of "I'm Okay, You're Okay" (my mother bought a book by that title in order to learn how to deal with my sister, it didn't help!) Maybe other people just let go of things easier.
The irrelevance. Maybe that makes one into a target. If you don't matter that much, then, no big deal. That's a hard one to reason out. I'm not mean on purpose and I don't look for people to be mean to. So, I'm kind of feeling around in the dark here. It seems related at any rate.
Jac said maybe it's "receptive" and "unreceptive". That makes sense too. Lately, I've been recognizing the unreceptive part. Sometimes I plan to be so. Maybe as a young person, I just couldn't handle certain things. When I compare my peers in school and the neighborhood to Ns, I see a lot of similarities. If I had somehow got more involved with that crowd, I suspect now that I would have found many new ways to be hurt. A lot of not so good things were going on with some of these kids. Maybe in my case it was good to be naive. I certainly would have gone into it unarmed as far as any kind of social skills. My parents taught me nothing about that, not even by example.
Yes, there's a lot here. It's a lot to think about. I just feel more at ease about it now. Less inside myself. Less frantic. Hope that feeling lasts.
Pennyplant
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Hi Pennyplant,
Maybe the question is... how many unburdenings (on the same topic) are there in a wallow?
I think that only those who know us best can answer that, because sometimes we are too up to our eyebrows in it all to see clearly.
The closest friends in whom I feel safe to confide are the sort in whom I can feel confident ... they won't let me roll around in the mud for too long. So that brings up the point, I think... it's important to choose carefully when seeking someone with whom to unburden? Seems vital to me that the person be someone who shares a similar belief system and world view in order to get wise counsel and a boost out of the pit when necessary.
One of the main reasons I don't ask for help very often or very well, is that history tells me the answer will be "No". And that hurts so much for some reason!
Pp, I am finding that when it hurts that much, it's because it's based in old stuff, not even related to what's in the here and now. I've been through some discussions recently that have revealed to me just how often there's complete lack of foundation for my reasons for being hurt. It's amazing.
Yes, sometimes the fact is that I'm being taken for granted or not heard, but it's not always for the reasons that I might have thought. Those reasons are founded in the past, springing from the wounds made by people who are long gone from my life. I know it still hurts .. but I am seeing that it doesn't have to hurt so much. The extra pain seems to come from old scars being stretched and pummelled, but it's like childbirth... once accomplished, the pain fades in the light of the miracle that's been wrought.
Maybe it's not so much that other people get it, maybe it's that they don't care so much, don't worry about it so much, and so by the next day, it's a new day and they just go on relating to others from the viewpoint of "I'm Okay, You're Okay"
Yes, I think so. To me, it's like they know it's all a game. In order to get along, I've found that I really need to stop taking myself so seriously :P
I think it's fine and healthy to be unreceptive to some input/ stimuli... including alot of that which can come from within ourselves! Learning to change self-talk seems to be a crucial key to it all.
Instead of trying to find a way to blend in, I'm thinking it's far more desireable to give yourself permission to stand out, on your own two feet. (((((((Pennyplant)))))))) Your potential cannot be hidden; it's just raising a ruckus to be unlocked.
Love,
Hope
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Instead of trying to find a way to blend in, I'm thinking it's far more desireable to give yourself permission to stand out, on your own two feet. (((((((Pennyplant)))))))) Your potential cannot be hidden; it's just raising a ruckus to be unlocked.
That's the part that feels good. That's what I think can happen now that I learned the important lesson on the table talk thread.
The old scars, that's got to be what's behind the hurt feelings. What you say makes so much sense. With me I think it's things learned in infancy and childhood from parents who didn't want to be bothered. It seems like I need to disengage from the old me as well as from difficult people currently in my life.
There's a lot of layers to this.
Pennyplant
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Yup, like an onion.
In fact, I'm realizing that I just uncovered another one today that is still amazing me. For 5 years or so now I've lived under the impression that I need to get my "critical spirit" under control and stop being so contrary and negative. It's just dawning on me now that I'm not really at all that way. This was one of those "tape recordings" planted within my mind by N-ex, who interpreted every attempt at discussion or suggestion of an alternate method as a criticism and further evidence of how "contrary" I am . His influence on me re-activated the ancient critical-parent tapes already in place from my mother's influence... and the vicious cycle continued. But the truth is, none of that is at all who I am. If anything, my determination to not be like my Mother caused me to swing to the exact opposite extreme... into a mode of gullible passivity and all-accepting tolerance of stuff that I should have never ever allowed. It was all projection and here I am, years later, just now seeing that.
It's frightening to realize that you've accepted so many lies over the years... lies about your what makes you worthy and valuable, lies about your own identity. They are not all defensive mechanisms, as I'd supposed when I first arrived at this forum. Some of them are simply fictions put in place by other peoples' projection and swallowed whole.
One more step toward freedom, Pennyplant.
Hope
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Thanks, Jac
((((((Jac))))) you are such a good friend and a wonderful cheerleader, too! :)
Seriously, this has all been very unsettling. I know it's good and yet I feel a bit like an astronaut floating out in space with no tether. It's the stripping away of all the delusions and illusions. Hmm... I wonder what's the difference. You know, I just gotta go see! :P
Delusion: a : something that is falsely or delusively believed or propagated b : a persistent false psychotic belief regarding the self or persons or objects outside the self that is maintained despite indisputable evidence to the contrary; also : the abnormal state marked by such beliefs
Illusion: Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Late Latin illusion-, illusio, from Latin, action of mocking, from illudere to mock at, from in- + ludere to play, mock -- more at LUDICROUS (ha ha)
1 a obsolete : the action of deceiving b (1) : the state or fact of being intellectually deceived or misled : MISAPPREHENSION (2) : an instance of such deception
2 a (1) : a misleading image presented to the vision (2) : something that deceives or misleads intellectually b (1) : perception of something objectively existing in such a way as to cause misinterpretation of its actual nature
OK, so I'm thinking that relating to Ns and being impacted by their NoNsense is similar to trying to drink water from a mirage pool and being left really thirsty!
Deep, huh? :shock:
Sometimes I don't want to see any more, but I don't think selective blindness is an option.
Love,
Hope
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Dear Hope,
I may be just re-living some childhood moments, but that's okay. (They come back for a benchmark sometimes I think.)
I have been wondering if you might be feeling offended by me in some way, because I've noticed you've more or less stopped acknowledging me. (That's why I asked if my comments were welcome a few posts back. Though you said "anyone is free to comment" you didn't reply when I then wrote to you directly...with a question and other thoughts. I feel I'm being avoided and I'm not sure why. [On edit: I got my thread references mixed up so deleted a bit....]
It's not obligatory in any way to engage with every person on the board and I can be at peace with anyone's choice. But first I thought I'd ask you if I was sensing things clearly. It might just be a misunderstanding or something I'm overlooking. Either way, I won't take it personally.
I had wondered too if I was feeling a little chill because you wrote elsewhere:
it's important to choose carefully when seeking someone with whom to unburden? Seems vital to me that the person be someone who shares a similar belief system and world view
Is it possible you decided because I don't share your belief system you'd prefer not to dialogue with me? I know sometimes people feel the need for that kind of boundary, and I'd certainly respect your wishes if that's the case.
But instead of guessing, I thought I should ask you directly, because I could have it wrong.
Thanks,
Hops
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Wow, Hops
You have taken a really in-your-face approach here.
I'll take this as an opportunity to apply some of my newfound knowledge about maintaining boundaries in relationship.
I don't like your approach.
I don't like it because I feel that you have put my back against the wall in the public square to force me to take a stand.
I also don't like it because you say:
I may be just re-living some childhood moments, but that's okay.
I disagree. I don't think it's at all ok to involve an innocent bystander in your reliving of childhood. What I hear you saying is, it's ok for me to back you into a corner because I might discover a benchmark and that would make it all worthwhile
And all of this because I did not respond to one post which you directed at me?
You know, not everyone to whom I post responds, but I don't think anything of it, nor do I post a reply to everyone who comments on one of the threads I initiate... or any thread, for that matter. I figure that people are like me... busy, taking in alot of info and choosing to comment on that which most impacts them... all normal stuff, part of engaging in a forum such as this. I don't feel like I need to have something to say about every single post that's made here. If I tried to do that, I'd be spouting alot of hot air for sure, because sometimes a topic simply doesn't "grab" me. If I can't respond from sincere interest, from my heart, I'll pass.
That being said, I'll attempt to explain what happened on this thread. When I saw your reply #4, I didn't know why you were asking me whether you could comment on this thread. I said exactly that in my reply #6.
I also didn't know exactly what you were asking in your reply #4, because I hadn't yet noticed that you'd already posted a response on the thread to Brigid (your reply #3). (I view the replies in reverse order and missed that one.) When I saw that you then posted another reply, directed toward me (#11), I realized that what you'd been asking all along was... did I personally want you to comment to me. I found that very odd. Because I found it odd (and still do) and felt that I had really been "put on the spot", I chose not to respond. I still believe that was a wise choice, because this feels to me like a very invasive, pushy sort of maneuver and, as I said, I don't like it.
There is, however, one thing you've said which I must address:
Quote: Is it possible you decided because I don't share your belief system you'd prefer not to dialogue with me? I know sometimes people feel the need for that kind of boundary, and I'd certainly respect your wishes if that's the case.
Well, in your reply #4, you said, I wanted to ask you if my questions are welcome, if you'd like a comment from me...
(if not please know that I am not going to take offense and yet... when you received no response... you put me on the spot again? Sounds to me like you did take offense and showed little respect for my wishes, so... what's next? If you show that no matter what you say, you will turn around and do the opposite, what do you suppose the effect of that might be? That's a rhetoircal question, by the way.
Also, it appears to me that you are suggesting that I'm burdened with some sort of religious prejudice based on one fact...
I didn't respond to one of your posts to me.
I find that..... amazing. I have drawn no such boundary. In fact, I've dialogued freely with many people here of various beliefs and gotten along well. But now, because you've suggested that I may be a religious bigot, should I be forced to defend myself against a bogus insinuation? I don't think so.
I hope that this will clarify in your mind my position and my boundaries, Hops. No offense taken by me... just trying to be clear.
Hope
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Dear Hope,
I'm sorry. My post was foolish and unecessary and I understand why it felt pushy. It was. You have every right to not respond and to not like someone. (That's my old tape.)
I know you're not a bigot. I apologize for the inference.
I hope you have a happy, peaceful Sunday.
In peace,
Hops
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Thanks, Hops.
Apology accepted.
I really don't dislike you, either.
Peace.
Hope