Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: moonlight52 on August 27, 2006, 06:42:10 PM
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I was wondering how many people have felt that their life has improved after working on abuse issues ?
And how many feel that no matter what abuse can never be healed and those that say they have improvement are in denial?
I am asking because I believe I have had improvement in my life and I rely on my husband and doctor to tell me what they see.
Also I am asking because of the kindness of the hearts of the people here I know I can trust.
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I believe. It must take enormous amounts of true, unobligated love.
I think cyber space can be a truly great source of the healing love because there is no demands placed on each other, so we can really send each other powerful packets of love and encouragement.
I like the thought of love without obligation. So radically different from N's concept of love which was nothing other than obligation.
Yeah - Love=>Healing.
Gaining Strength
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Hi Moon,
I have to believe that one can heal from abuse, because I am one of those people doing so!
There are some important ingredients, though. You have to want to heal. You have to be willing to look deeply at life and at yourself. You have to be willing to brush yourself off and start over again and again anytime failure occurs.
Has my life improved? Well, one thing I am learning is that my life was never as bad as I thought it was. There were many bad events. There were many, many, many hard struggles. But there were also good things that maybe I could have built on if only I had been able to see them or trust that they existed.
Fortunately, now I am beginning to be able to see. So, I think that life will be more like what I want it to be, and need it to be, soon. I think I'm beginning to open up to more possibilities. Sometimes I do feel good. And that was quite rare before. Happiness is happening more often now. That tells me that healing has occurred and that it is making my life better or will make it better soon.
It's funny that I have felt pretty happy and mellow all day today. Funny to me because last night I was very down and went to bed not feeling happy. But I let the feelings exist on the surface where I could feel them and examine them. My new method that I have learned here. Feel my feelings. Go through them, not around, and not pushing them back down. And sure enough, when those sad feelings had exhausted themselves, there was room for happiness. And I felt it all day long. Good happiness, not giddy, addictive happiness. All day long. Just amazing.
Good question, Moon!
PP
Hi GS! I don't think I have welcomed you yet. I'm enjoying your posts and getting a lot out of them, including the comments you have just made. Love without obligation. And for Ns it is nothing but obligation. Makes so much sense.
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There are so many types of abuse, maybe some are more difficult to overcome.
I know of verbal abuse and have learned those that would say hurtful things are idiots.
if you can re-frame the hurt as an adult, look at that abuse to your child now different as an adult.
When I was a child I would not have had the skills to see through the abuse. I therefore made choices in my life because I couldn't understand my pain and how I appeared flawed from the abuse I felt done to me.
I gave up that hurt, I stay away from hurtful people as much as possible and understand their opinion of life
sucks and to just stay away.
I can more easily forgive now,I have healed with emotional scars that don't just go away. I even get triggered when someone acts like my mother.
Now as an adult I react in a more mature manner and willing to fight back for my right to exist and be who I am, willing to be honest without fear of their rejection.
To answer your question healing still leaves scars and with those scars should be a new wisdom to overcome, re-frame the old hurts into moving on in live with peace and clarity.
good question ...............OR
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Dear Moon,
You know where I look for answers....
These are a couple of many passages that to me, attest to ultimate healing:
Malachi 4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
The New Living Translations says: "But for you who fear my name, the Sun of Righteousness will rise with healing in his wings. And you will go free, leaping with joy like calves let out to pasture."
and Isaiah 53:5 But he was wounded and crushed for our sins. He was beaten that we might have peace. He was whipped, and we were healed!
Love,
Hope
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Hi Moon,
I have had it easier than many here. Still, there have been quite painful times.
But when I think about healing and how I've felt about the things that have hurt me (my brother and playground bullies and cliques of girls were the abusers, not my parents--NMom's toxins were unconscious, would never have deliberately abused me)...after many years of such work to get my focus off the emotional pain...
I started to notice that even lucky people, who grew up like the Waltons -- can have the most horrendous things happen to them in life that have nothing to do with Nism OR abuse in childhood. Allowing myself to feel compassion for their suffering seems to put my own in perspective.
I remember a book I read many years ago. I can't remember the title, but it was a classic...a young girl who had been horrendously abused. I'll spare you the details but they were beyond comprehension. She grew up in foster care...anyway. She became a radiant person who had a huge affect on all who knew her. (Her abuse was in infancy, so it may be that it was walled away. But evidently her loving nature was unusually remarkable.)
I absolutely believe a person can heal from abuse. I think compassion for the inner self is where to start. If it feels counter-intuitive and just about impossible to get past self-loathing, I think the best solution, or next step, is distraction by altruism (service). Just doing it -- an hour a week if that's all that's possible -- and even just going through the motions if your heart's not in it at first.. I think that literally trains hearts in the habit of finding meaning.
Happiness comes after finding the transcendent value in being alive and interdependent with all life, I think.
(preaching to the choir, I know, with you Moon...just on my soapbox).
Hops
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HI Everyone ,
The improvement I have experienced seems to have gone in waves like a spiral .(ever upward now)
PennyPlant helping me find the key to my FOO has lead me to this break thu .
It seems like the right timing also to let myself feel the feelings and not hiding is good.HI PP :D
I really trust hubby because he does not sugarcoat mood swings etc.
He has said he has seen improvement.I guess I know something has shaken loose
in my understanding .Now I am learning to trust myself .This is new to me .
I have cleared up a lot of self destructive patterns
and am letting myself feel the new bright path.
Life is feeling different and it is seems to be something like freedom and now I know how to protect myself.
So the big thing is I am not so afraid thats it I am much less afraid. :D And this will leave room for happiness to come in its place.
My mind understands I am protecting my heart from any more hurt and learning to trust self and be strong.
Yes Hops doing kindness for others is a great way to focus .It helps others and self.
Something I have always known from the beginning is LOVE is a choice we can make everyday.
Moon
p.s. From this place of diminished fear I will grow and if I slip still I know I am on right the path.
Moon
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I agree with Penny, that a person can grow stronger and better in spite of/because of the abuse he or she has suffered. I tiotally agree with Penny that you HAVE TO WANT to get better. I fully believe that there are some who want to wallow in the pain and bad feelings and cannot or will not pull themselves up from the muck. My childhood was bad, but so many more have dealt with and lived through worse than me... And I just don't want to be bitter and unsatisfied my whole life. My hardest issues are with self-image right now... I am feeling validated as to my past (yes, it did happen.... no, I'm not crazy) and that is thanks to all of you. I am so glad I am away from all of that. I have had a crappy last couple of weeks, but overall, I feel like my crappiest day now could never touch the misery of what it was to be an angry, critical, lonely person... the person that I was.
Love you all.
Beth
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Hi Beth ,
I think that you are so right about self pity and wanting to heal is such an important factor as you an PennyPlant say.
And so no matter what place you are at there seems to be all these same basic principles that are available when we want and choose to heal.
All of the change in the last four months seems so fast and I am still reviewing all that has taken place within to get me where I am now.
As for forgiving n that can be done but as far as placing myself and family right back in the middle of that is not going to happen.
(Mr moon and I have agreed on that)
It is so good Beth that you have been validated as to your past.That is great.
I am sorry you have had a couple of bad weeks .But the change overall is good.
I can understand and I will never return to the prison I once was in.........I am so grateful for that peace.
LOVE to you BETH,
Moon
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I did lunch with a colleague this week who remarked- everyone has some hurts, some pain to heal from.
And I think it's true, most people don't get through life unscathed by some difficulty, trauma or sadness.
To me healing is a process...a movement through responses ( anger, frustration, denial, pain etc ) to exploring and being open to the lessons & learning ways to adapt....to using the new knowledge and skills in other settings and sharing them....to resolution ( acceptance, strength, empathy and love )
And I really believe
Every problem has a gift for you in its hands.
~Writer Richard Bach
He also made the following observations on life:
Argue for your limitations, and sure enough, they're yours.
We're the bridge across forever, arching above the sea, adventuring for our pleasure, living mysteries for the fun of it, choosing disasters triumphs challenges impossible odds, testing ourselves over and again, learning love and love and LOVE!
and my favourite- which is so true for my marriage and divorce:
I believe that Leslie and I were led to find each other, led through the years we lived together, and led to part. There's so much to learn! When a marriage comes to an end, we're free to call it a failure. We're also free to call it a graduation. We didn't say, 'I guess we weren't led to each other, I guess we're not soul mates after all.' Our graduation was part of the experience we chose before we were born, to learn how to let each other go.
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Hi Moon:
Interesting question. If one does not believe one can heal from abuse, there would be no point in trying to heal then eh? Therefore, simply trying to heal.....implies belief in that possibility, I think.
Is the trick then in the method? For me, it is. It's a long and painful struggle too. It takes time and effort. The damage abuse causes doesn't just go away. It has to be evicted, imo.
The damage is another tricky thing to determine, isn't it? I mean, how do I know what the real damage is?
I can examine my behaviour with a critical eye or ask for assistance from another, whom I trust. I can reflect on my life and how it has gone so far and on my thoughts and feelings.
Bottom line for me is how I feel. Do I feel healed? Do I feel damaged? Am I happy with my life? Do my thoughts focus on now and the future?
When I can answer: "Yes" ....."Not any more"......and ....."Generally Yep and yep again!" , then I might decide the effect of abuse are no longer effective and that the damage has been reduced to it's minimum or irradicated.
Does that make any sense at all? :roll: Maybe I need another coffee?
:D Sela
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Hello everyone,
I want to comment on "wallowing" and "self-pity," and then on "suffering as gift."
"Wallowing" is not as straight forward as it appears. There are times when what seems to be wallowing is really being stuck. There have definitely been periods when I was stuck - to such a degree I got tired of talking to my therapist because, "There is nothing new to talk about. I have said it all before." And boy did I get tired of repeating the same descriptions of my injuries. But I was "stuck" as opposed to "wallowing." And I was stuck because there was more to get at in my woundedness. As it turned out I was stuck because the deepest wound was around shame and I had already explored that for several years. I simply couldn't see that I have only touched the tip of the iceburg on shame. The name of the issues were the same - childhood wounds, shame; but the depth had not been plumbed.
The difference between "wallowing" and "being stuck" is subtle and difficult to discern but boy is it important. If my therapist had even hinted that I was wallowing thenI would never have been able to get to the fullness of my shame.
The other thing about "wallowing" for me is that I felt for YEARS that I was trapped in self pity and I tried over and over, through relationships, through friendships, through therapy to get someone to hold my self pity for me, to agree with me in self pity. But if I recognized my state as self-pity then I felt shamed about it and produced yet another shell to be cracked later. Finally, I am able to look back and see that holding that self-pity and trying to find someone to hold it with me was part of an elaborate scheme to get some validation. So I think the issue of "self-pity" looks clear from the outside but it can be very tricky. Ultimately, the difference is whether someone enjoys the self-pity and therefore enjoys rolling around in it, i.e. "wallowing" or they hate it and are frustrated by it and are actually "stuck" in it and if stuck they need to stick with it and keep chipping away because they are actually stuck in the place where they need to be working.
Somebody give me some feed back about "wallowing" v. "stuck." I'm wondering what you think about it?
Every problem has a gift for you in its hands.
Everytime I am able to adopt this attitude I can work my way through it. But heaven knows, I have to come to this realization on my own. If I share a real struggle with someone and their response is Every problem has a gift for you in its hands, I think I might just cry.
Thanks for letting me share. It helps me Gain[ing] Strength.
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If my therapist had even hinted that I was wallowing thenI would never have been able to get to the fullness of my shame.
absolutely- there is a lot of judging in the phrases 'self-pity' and 'wallowing'.
Sometimes we're just at where we're at and it's going to take time.
A good therapist will pick up on the cues of 'personally ready to move on' not push us around! But therapy can cure stuck.
My very good psychologist once said to me as a comment 'I don't think it's as bad as you think once you face it' -did I tell her off, I was so indignant ( maybe that's why she did it come to think of it...we were talking about me never getting angry the week before! )
If I share a real struggle with someone and their response is Every problem has a gift for you in its hands, I think I might just cry.
this came up last week in a religious discussion here- people saying insensitive things, or religious things without knowing how the person would receive that, well-meant phrases turned into platitudes I guess.
Since sometimes it takes years for someone to see the gift in a situation, yes, it's inappropriate to make the comment whilst they are suffering. It can be a useful comment to make if someone is stuck though! pointing out the strengths and skills the person has now etc.
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Hi WRITE, I was looking at the website you provided on another thread.
And got this :
"The most freeing thing is to immerse oneself in life not memories .
In trauma there is no way out except to leave the past behind fully acknowledging that it has become an integral part of one's history but no longer rules one's life.
This is the redemptive lesson of trauma .It wants pure and simple healing and after the fact it owes nothing to no one such is it's ultimate beauty and power." INVICTA
THIS IS MY ULTIMATE TRUTH ON THE SUBJECT OF MY INTERACTIONS WITH SAID N THAT HAS BEEN APART OF MY LIFE
TO PUT THE MEMORIES WHERE THEY BELONG IN THE PAST.MY HEART WILL HAVE NOTHING LESS THAN A PURE AND SIMPLE HEALING.
p.s. SELA The suggestions for how I am doing thu the process of healing are great I will use them and thanks. I feel stronger today 8)
MoonLight
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Hi GS:
You're right. If someone says "Get over it" ... well if you were totally over it you might not be here, eh? No worries. You wallow all you want. Pigs wallow. It's a very legitimate verb. I'm good at it! Who the heck says we were not provide these mudpuddles for a very good and healing reason? NO SHAME.
Moon:
I think you are one of the most grateful human beings I know.
Write:
So may it be. Thank you.
love to all,
Hops
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hi moonlight,
I guess I believe both: abuse cannot be totally healed, and we can heal ourselves. I like to think that for some reason, the abuse I've been through was for a reason - so there is a positive in there somewhere. It's allowed me to be more sensitive, it's given me my current insight into the world and people, it's made me thankful for what I have...probably so much more.
hugs,
bean
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I guess the wallowing to me is when you feel like shit, but that's what you are used to and more or less satisfied with. I have a friend whom I have known for 15 years. She has been unhappy all that time. In the beginning it was because she had been molested, then she wasn't sure about her sexuality, then she started seriously drinking... then she met a guy... had a baby... and you know what? Now she hates her life because there's not enough money and babies are diffiicult and on and on. As soon as something gets good, she finds that something new is wrong with her life... I guess that's what I mean by wallowing. And it is also what I did before I hit recovery. I had a pity party every day. I knew I was being ridiculous, and yet in some way I enjoyed it. The entire universe was about ME ME ME.
So maybe not wallowing is getting outside of yourself. Let's say you are in a hole and you lie on the floor and say, "Oh my God, this hole is terrible. Poor me." And you cry and cry. Or you fall in the whole and you are STUCK, but you keep trying to scale the walls. Maybe the difference is hope?????
OK, enough babbling. I hope to someone somewhere this makes sense...
Love, Beth
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Moon,
You know I believe in healing. You and Beth are my poster children for healing ;8); ;8);
teartracks
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Hi tt and everyone,
How beautiful each soul on this website is.......................... 8)
Learning and becoming stronger is so good along with gaining wisdom .
I have found I still get to keep that sense of awe about the world and keep the childlike wonder.
And hug the one that was hurt.That little one I understand and am holding her hand while I allow myself to grow up.
I am being a good parent to me and letting myself remember my mom that was loving and kind to me.
But I feel the door has opened for a greater way to be I am not afraid and I am living in the now.
Grateful for every dirty dish and sock.
I just got done sewing for my little moonlet some jeans she wanted altered.
All I want in the world is to be strong for my loved ones and for me too.
I know healing happens because I have not repeated the abuse done to me.
that's healing.
Making healthy choices every day being responsible for self and my loved ones.Some days it is easier than others.
This new way of being and thinking has been a lot of change in the fast track.
My family likes me stronger my n does not.I do not call him but he calls me I am kind and I do love him
But I do not understand him.
You know being kind helping others and looking around and being thankful are things that are happening .
Thanks to all the help here I am learning so much.
I have been a hermit while my arm and tummy heal.
So much is changing The whole way I look at the world We can choose LOVE every day.
SO MUCH LOVE TO YOU TT
LOVE TO ALL
MoonLight
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Hi Beth,
For me, it becomes wallowing when the focus is on blame... whether that's blaming others or myself. Blame and shame just gobble up hope and obstruct vision so thoroughly, it is paralyzing. When I can stop blaming and work on keeping my mind on things good and right and true, then I'm on the increase.
Moon,
All I want in the world is to be strong for my loved ones and for me too.
I know healing happens because I have not repeated the abuse done to me.
that's healing.
That definition works for me.
Love,
Hope
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I was wondering how many people have felt that their life has improved after working on abuse issues ?
And how many feel that no matter what abuse can never be healed and those that say they have improvement are in denial?
I am asking because I believe I have had improvement in my life and I rely on my husband and doctor to tell me what they see.
Also I am asking because of the kindness of the hearts of the people here I know I can trust.
It really depends on what you mean by healing.
If you mean, can you ever be who you would have been without the abuse, then I think no. Neither can we ever go back to being the person we once were, before all this happened. In my case that person is impossible to reconstruct, because an Nmum is the most damaging of all, I think. Fortunately for me, I had an older brother, who probably saved what there is of me that is whole today, all those years ago, for me to build on.
But to me, healing is something other than this. The Oracle at Delphi had an inscription over the door, which read "Know thyself" and I think when we go for t, what we are doing is the same as the ancients who went to Delphi. We are seeking to learn something of ourselves, and with each piece of knowledge, comes a small piece of our healing.
In a good t situation, what is healed is denial, ignorance (in the sense of not being aware) and boundary weakness. The perps lose their power when we learn what weapons they use, and how they use them. We gain knowledge, while they keep on using the same old tactics, which no longer work.
I think the Buddhists are right when they work towards detachment. Each one of us has been caught in a massive spider's web, some of us from the day we were born. T helps us to cut the strings one by one. If we still see the Ns, they carry on weaving, and trying to trap us again, but if we are strong, the glue on their web no longer sticks to us. Bit by bit, we cut ourselves free. And true recovery, I think, is when we stand apart from the spider's web, and can look at it and no longer feel drawn to it as safe and comfortable. The N wants us all to remain alive, but stuck, so that they can suck our life from us, as a spider does with a fly.
Sorry for the rather jucky image.
Anyway, healing is being detached, and it happens slowly. And I would also say, the best people to help us achieve this healing are those who have very powerful spiders web cutting strategies of their own, and who are happy to lend them to us. People here, that is. :D
As an alternative image, think of the potential of anyone's life being a piece of fine cloth, ready to make into a garment. The N comes along, and destroys that cloth, primarily because of jealousy. Then what we do in t is say, ok, the fine cloth can no longer be reconstructed, but neither can this valuable resource be thrown away. So we can either make a mishmash, which is survival of the most basic kind, or we can find someone who is skilled in psychology, and work towards finding some patterns, and make the most intricate, most beautiful work of art that anyone has ever seen. Maybe it is a tapestry, or maybe a patchwork quilt. But piece by piece, and bit by bit, we create something unique, and something beautiful, from the ravages of the N scissors.
The reason you cannot see it yet, moonlight, is that you are working from the back of the quilt. When you hold it up, all you see is stiches, and seams, and bits of thread sticking out. But what other people see is a gradually building whole, with light and shade, beauty and warmth. Lots of warmth. And when it is finished, it will be big enough to wrap around the whole world.
(((((((((hugs)))))))))
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Well, one thing I am learning is that my life was never as bad as I thought it was.
Mine was far worse than I thought it was. :lol:
I think I still have no idea, really, how bad it was, or is. :?
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Somebody give me some feed back about "wallowing" v. "stuck." I'm wondering what you think about it?
One of the things I do from time to time is paint. There are times when I look at the materials and such, and I can't even imagine being able to do anything with them. There are other times when they call to me, and first of all I pick up a brush and touch it, and then I look at the paint tubes, and think, maybe .... And there are (very rare these days) the days when I have to paint. I simply have to. My mind switches off, and the whole world is about colour, and about making colours sing together. I can spend hours and hours absorbed in creating something, which is never quite what I mean it to be, but is something of its own. Like with a child, you do not create the child you want, you carry the child you are given.
So all of that is a very long way of saying, if you change the view on this, and recognise that all creativity demands a gestation period, then that being stuck is not being stuck at all. Maybe instead it is the slow, silent, invisible creation of something new.
There may be some artists who sit back and say, the muse has not inspired me, and do not try. But for most, writer's block or whatever it is called when you are an artist but cannot paint, is a part of creativity. And after the very longest of these, when I personally am most in despair of ever painting again, what then happens is that when I do start again, it is a new style, or a completely new subject, or the same subject only far more detailed, or accomplished.
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The reason you cannot see it yet, moonlight, is that you are working from the back of the quilt. When you hold it up, all you see is stiches, and seams, and bits of thread sticking out. But what other people see is a gradually building whole, with light and shade, beauty and warmth. Lots of warmth. And when it is finished, it will be big enough to wrap around the whole world.
October this is beautiful, a positive view of the veil that veils us and you’re right. All I see is stitches and seams and a botch-job holding itself together (although it feels a bit stronger now).
Mine was far worse than I thought it was.
Me too.
I think I still have no idea, really, how bad it was, or is.
Really? Do you mean in comparison to ‘normal’ (loving, well-intentioned) families? I’m getting an idea of how bad it was for me, but I’m not sure it helps after a certain er level. It helps me to stay away from them and not feel bad for staying away either. They just don’t help me in any way, except as validation of the past as I now see it…on a day to day level, too much of them would just make me sad and probably somehow unmoving, like a statue. Odd image? Can't really explain...
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The reason you cannot see it yet, moonlight, is that you are working from the back of the quilt. When you hold it up, all you see is stiches, and seams, and bits of thread sticking out. But what other people see is a gradually building whole, with light and shade, beauty and warmth. Lots of warmth. And when it is finished, it will be big enough to wrap around the whole world.
October this is beautiful, a positive view of the veil that veils us and you’re right. All I see is stitches and seams and a botch-job holding itself together (although it feels a bit stronger now).
To me you look to be made from very fine silks, Portia. Very soft and fine to the touch, and apparently fragile, but really stronger than steel. I don't think I see any botching at all; from this side the work is so fine that you cannot even see the stitches. :D
Mine was far worse than I thought it was.
Me too.
I think I still have no idea, really, how bad it was, or is.
Really? Do you mean in comparison to ‘normal’ (loving, well-intentioned) families? I’m getting an idea of how bad it was for me, but I’m not sure it helps after a certain er level. It helps me to stay away from them and not feel bad for staying away either. They just don’t help me in any way, except as validation of the past as I now see it…on a day to day level, too much of them would just make me sad and probably somehow unmoving, like a statue. Odd image? Can't really explain...
I think what I mean is that I have done some work towards what happened, and have some awareness of it, but there are still layers of cloud in the way, protected by dissociation and fuzzy memory. I am not even going to begin to find out what is there, until I have the right kind of support, but there are years of clarity, and then later on several years of fog. I can see the childhood years well enough, even though they were bad, and I can see (I think) most of the bad times, but the marriage years have gone behind a big cloud.
It may be that I never need to revisit those times, or it may be necessary - I don't know what the t will suggest, if and when I ever get that far. But I think that until we find out what Ns are, we do not know how bad our lives are, and even years down the line, something protects us from knowing it all.
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I like the image of strong silk... :oops: too kind October….thank you (that image will probably stay with me now, so really, thank you.. 8)). If you see silk what do I see? The honest first image was of intricate white, flowing lace, patterns interleaved, softly blowing. There are holes, gaps, in the design and if I put my finger to one of them I realise that there’s another layer of lace behind, and another: I’d have to go through a maze of overlapping holes and fabric, trying to find a way through oh! And that’s me, going in and wanting to know more all the time….a bit invasive I think! I’ll stand back and admire the shifting shapes and patterns instead. 8)
Our brains protect ‘us’ that’s for sure I think (I do think our brains are us haha ‘Brains R Us’ - sorry). Do we need to know it all? I don’t know. What does my brain want? To survive I guess and maybe knowing it all, feeling the impact and dealing with it, well – too much reality is bad for mental health, true. Depressive realism. The past, the past holds keys to today, but the reality of the past – can it ever be experienced today with full force? Can today’s brain really process the past as it was? I don’t think so, really. It can come to an understanding of why we feel the way we do, but I don’t think experiencing it will help deal with the effects.
That old ‘as if’ programme. If we deliberately change our current thoughts from: I feel excluded and terrified in this situation because of x, to: I feel excluded and terrified and that feeling is wrong, not appropriate, so I’m going to actively override it…..you know what I mean. The past tells us why, but it doesn’t tell us how to be today. Today is the sum of everything before, but everything before can be a huge hindrance.
Today I’m going to be someone different! I’m going to walk along the street with long strides, I’m going to take up more space than I usually do. If someone approaches from the other direction, I’ll see if they make a move to accommodate my passage before I make a move. And if they don’t, I won’t and I’ll see what happens next. Risky!
That kind of thing. Doing the ‘alien jump’. If an alien suddenly landed inside your body, what would they think and do? How would it feel, what would they be curious to do? (Then you do a jump and become the alien.) You know, dumb stuff, but sometimes it works. The brain can be easily fooled and it’s okay to fool it once in a while (especially if you’re doing it to your own brain, better you than someone else).
I think we all have closed cabinets in our mental filing systems. They won’t budge for a good reason and that’s protecting the stability of the organism. If or when the brain is ready to look inside itself, it will, I kind of believe that.
So how do you feel about CBT October? Seriously.
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Moon, living here and now
October, germinating, creating
Portia, walking a lace maze
beautiful...
Hops
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Hops enjoying the walk around and the views? 8)
October,
just stumbled across this site and i thought of you-hooooo:
http://socialanxiety.factsforhealth.org/
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WOW,
I just am here and now the view is AWE INSPIRING and thank you to the kind ones here .
The Oracle of Delphi is some great interest to me.Know thy self the kinder I am to self the stronger my boundaries are and the more I can detach but in a supportive wayfor self and loved ones.
Lovely silk lace yes beautiful
((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((()))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
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Hops enjoying the walk around and the views? 8)
October,
just stumbled across this site and i thought of you-hooooo:
http://socialanxiety.factsforhealth.org/
Do you experience intense fear during social interactions? Do you avoid speaking in class or dining with co-workers? Do you start trembling and sweating at the thought of attending a party? If so, you may be suffering from social anxiety disorder, also known as social phobia.
Funny thing is, none of that is true of me. I don't feel fear of being with people, I am an excellent public speaker, I am not afraid of parties.
The reason I avoid them is that if I do any of that stuff, I get flashbacks lasting several hours and preventing me from sleeping, sometimes until four or five, and then the next day I am wrecked. And then the next night the same, sometimes for weeks. I get flashbacks mostly from social stuff, but sometimes even from message board stuff. Anything at all.
But I looooooooooove people, and love being with them. Just can't do it too much, because the cost is too high. Not every single time, but if the anxiety is high enough, then it happens. :?
However, many thanks for the link, Portia, I will read more.
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So how do you feel about CBT October? Seriously.
I think that is what my last t did with me. There was a lot of good stuff in it, but the problem for me was that the system which supported that t was not adequate to keep me safe enough within it for me to benefit from it as much as I could have done.
With ptsd there is a huge element of hypervigilance; always on the alert for danger. If the alert signals are triggered, then the t will not be able to work, because self protection comes before growth. So, for example, Diane told me to write down nice things people said about me, and I did. I bought a book, and wrote them down. But then she went on holiday for two weeks, without any cover, and when she returned I explained to her how hard it is not to have anyone as a safety net, just in case, and she tried to tell me that was my problem, not hers, and to go to A&E, and then the next week she told me she was leaving.
Interpretation: If you tell someone that they have been able to hurt you, then they will use that knowledge and hurt you even more.
And all of that was July 2004, and I am still waiting for the replacement.
So CBT might work, but not in this kind of scenario, where the most vulnerable person in the chain is the one who always has to pay for any failing or any inadequacy in the system. Even if your expectations are very very low indeed, in my experience, the NHS can disappoint you, and then blame you for expecting too much, and wanting too much.
I have yet to hear anyone tell me that actually, my expectations are reasonable, and I have been seriously let down. However ...
The priorities for healing in cptsd according to Judith Herman are first safety, which can take years to establish. Second trust. Third reconnection. I have never yet achieved the first, with any t. And situations like the one above make it harder the next time, because you learn more caution, more fear and more hesitancy every time.
I do not know how long it takes before I become incurable, but there has to be, somewhere, a point of no return. I just hope and pray that I have not already passed it.
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Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr you have not!
hope and pray I have not already passed it.
You've been waiting since 2004 for a new T? Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
I want you to take care of Ocotober, okay?
Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr (me being frustrated at the idea of you being despairing)
BTW, when I'm not imitating tigers, I think you are SO smart, October, and so very insightful about yourself. There's no way you wouldn't do wonderfully with a stable, consisttent T. Maybe you need an older T who's gotten where they're going and wouldn't be rotating off to some new job???
((((((((((October)))))))))))))))
Hops
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Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr you have not!
hope and pray I have not already passed it.
You've been waiting since 2004 for a new T? Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
Yes. I can tell you a thousand NHS excuses why this is the case, but in the end, it comes down to me, alone, waiting to be heard.
I want you to take care of Ocotober, okay?
Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr (me being frustrated at the idea of you being despairing)
BTW, when I'm not imitating tigers, I think you are SO smart, October, and so very insightful about yourself. There's no way you wouldn't do wonderfully with a stable, consisttent T. Maybe you need an older T who's gotten where they're going and wouldn't be rotating off to some new job???
Thanks, Hops. I like tigers. :lol: And you are right, I need a stable, consistent t.
The only problem is, there is nobody around who can help, and I have been referred to Oxford. I have no idea how many miles away from here Oxford is, but at a rough estimate it must be 50 - 60 miles. Which makes a 120 mile round trip, with t in the middle.
I have no idea how anyone can think that is achievable. But I have no appointment as yet, and no information about what will happen. I will go (eventually!) for the assessment, and take it from there. But if by some miracle a job came up first, there is no doubt in my mind that I would take it, and find my own healing.
I am not good at taking care of myself, because I have very little experience of what that looks like, or feels like. But I try to take care of d, and by extension, realise that d without her mum is not a good idea. Which works round to taking at least some care of whoever it is that I am. :?
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I'm able to mark my healing from abuse in a much more concrete manner then most. When I filed for divorce after 20 years on a roller coaster of abuse I was a broken woman. To the ourside world that didn't know about the abuse I appeared strong and courages for taking a stand. To my close friends and therapist they knew I either filed or die. When I think about the woman who wept out loud, that actually wrote journal entries contemplating learning techniques to manage abuse and considered returning to the craziness I can't believe how far I have come in a little over 3 years.
In my case I had kids to heal and very little authentic family support. The narcissim of my authentic family kicked into full gear and I had to also withdraw from them in order to get better. I was fortunate to have good friends, buy every book I could on the subject of narcissim, meet some excellent therapist (met some not so good ones to along the way) and somehow find the innner strength to put one foot in front of the other.
Your question and other's answers really made me think and realize how far I have come. I know I'm a much better mother, pick healthier friends, can spot a narcissistic man (or woman) in a heartbeat, have started believing in myself, enjoy living without feeling apprehensive of reprecussions and abuse.
So I guess the answer to your question is yes, the wounds heal, you get stronger but you will always have the scars. Sometimes they will itch to remind you of your wound, sometimes you will act in certain ways that you may not be proud of only to realize it is your way to protect yourself from others seeing your scars. Just as real scars can be beautiful and interesting and add character if we stop trying to hide them and accept them so can emotional scars. If we accept them and see them as helping make us into the people we are today they can be the key to us living a more fufilling life. Healing truly begins when we leave victim mode and entire survivor mode!
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(((((((Moonlight on the thread again :D))))))
October
About those flashbacks, I remember you talking about this before. When I’m with people, I tend to concentrate a lot on what they say, how they behave and afterwards I’m exhausted from the stimulation. Alone, I do many re-runs of conversations, gestures, facial expressions and have a mentally active time analysing and replaying things. I can try not to do re-runs so long as I have some replacement activity (book, television) but it’s not easy.
After a two-day visit to another house and interacting with between three and eight people, I feel very tired but also totally over-stimulated, unable to stop the brain doing its stuff. This doesn’t sound to me like your flashbacks, but I wonder if both reactions are something to do with being deeply introverted and well, analytical? Is it something that could be trained in both of us to be beneficial - and if not, perhaps trained to calm down a bit? I don’t know!
I remember what that T said about it being your problem and about going to A&E. I can see her position (over-stretched, fire-fighting NHS general therapist with no specific training to help your sort of problem) and I can understand your reaction and emotional interpretation. And so can you! Is that part of the mix, the fact that you’re too bright for the system? :?:
I think many people on the receiving end of NHS mental health care are too bright for the system. I’m serious. Maybe your expectations are reasonable to you, they may not be reasonable to the NHS. Until you’re taking your own or someone else’s life, you’re not going to get priority – that is the way the system works. And the priority you’d get in those situations – I wouldn’t want to go there. Some of our A&E departments still treat severe cutters with disdain and contempt – keep them bleeding and waiting because it’s ‘their own fault’. The system is not intelligent. It's rubbish but that's the way it is.
I do not know how long it takes before I become incurable, but there has to be, somewhere, a point of no return.
No there doesn’t have to be that point, I won’t believe it :D. ((((((((((October)))))))))
Gap
How far you’ve come 8).
Just as real scars can be beautiful and interesting and add character if we stop trying to hide them and accept them so can emotional scars. If we accept them and see them as helping make us into the people we are today they can be the key to us living a more fufilling life.
My vulnerability makes me stronger. Are you a safe person Gap - here, want to look at my scars? :D
Healing truly begins when we leave victim mode and entire survivor mode!
I like being a survivor and I like survivors. I love 'em.
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About those flashbacks, I remember you talking about this before. When I’m with people, I tend to concentrate a lot on what they say, how they behave and afterwards I’m exhausted from the stimulation. Alone, I do many re-runs of conversations, gestures, facial expressions and have a mentally active time analysing and replaying things. I can try not to do re-runs so long as I have some replacement activity (book, television) but it’s not easy.
After a two-day visit to another house and interacting with between three and eight people, I feel very tired but also totally over-stimulated, unable to stop the brain doing its stuff. This doesn’t sound to me like your flashbacks, but I wonder if both reactions are something to do with being deeply introverted and well, analytical? Is it something that could be trained in both of us to be beneficial - and if not, perhaps trained to calm down a bit? I don’t know!
That does sound very similar. As I understand it, if the brain is overactivated with adrenaline, due to whatever stressor switches it on, there is an increased chance of memories being stored iin a different place from normal. Normal memory gets stored and fades with time. Traumatic memory gets stored elsewhere, in a kind of emergency mode, and gets reviewed endlessly, in order for the person to learn from it to avoid danger in future. No matter how many times you review it, and no matter what length of time passes, the memory does not fade. It stays fresh, and detailed, and brings back every detail - sounds, smells, feelings, and sometimes you cannot tell where you are in time and that it is not happening again in reality. Part of the cure is to ground yourself in where you are, and study details of the time, place etc in order to not get sucked into the past.
This makes sense from a biological perspective, but when a person is overdosing on adrenaline because of being hypervigilant it has the effect of making everything traumatic, and every simple interaction subject to the same review and assessment process. It is not a conscious thing, and neither is it easy to switch it off. I avoid it by reading at night until I am tired, and then putting out the light. Most days this works, but if there is something to be reviewed, it then starts, and I find myself half an hour later exhausted with the mental effort, and further from sleep. At the same time my eyes are so tired, and it really hurts to turn the light back on again and force myself back into the book, to close access to my mind from the traumatic stuff. Then I do the whole thing again.
Is that part of the mix, the fact that you’re too bright for the system? :?:
It is certainly the case that, imo, you need to have a therapist who is capable of leading you towards insights. If you find that you are the one leading the t, then that might help her learning process, but will not help your recovery. Diane was able to give me lots of insights, but she was not specialist in my condition, and was not able to see things which she did not already know. In other words, if the system said one thing, and I said another, then the system had to be right.
I do not know how long it takes before I become incurable, but there has to be, somewhere, a point of no return.
No there doesn’t have to be that point, I won’t believe it :D. ((((((((((October)))))))))
:D I won't believe it either. But that doesn't mean that it won't happen, or that it hasn't already. I may have to settle, after all, for what I have, and hope that the next generation can do the living instead. :)
Being physically tired is becoming a real problem for me. It may help to have more to do, or even just a new direction to try, but meanwhile, I am so tired all the time.
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I read this yesterday and felt a little overwhelmed just reading your descriptions, which is no help to you is it :?, or maybe it would be if you could print out all your descriptions and get your new T to read them before seeing you...to save time so that they can focus on you in the here and now. I often think that - that they could use some of the allotted time focusing on what a person writes, rather than using the personal time up with descriptions, maybe some do? i don't know. I remember someone here a long time ago saying they gave their written stuff to a T who, when the therapy ended unsuccessfully, said he'd thrown it away! This was in the UK. Sheesh.
I wanted to ask - please forgive me if you've talked about this before - if you've been given any type of medication for sleeping, or to slow or stop the mental cycling and dull the overactivation?
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I read this yesterday and felt a little overwhelmed just reading your descriptions, which is no help to you is it :?, or maybe it would be if you could print out all your descriptions and get your new T to read them before seeing you...to save time so that they can focus on you in the here and now. I often think that - that they could use some of the allotted time focusing on what a person writes, rather than using the personal time up with descriptions, maybe some do? i don't know. I remember someone here a long time ago saying they gave their written stuff to a T who, when the therapy ended unsuccessfully, said he'd thrown it away! This was in the UK. Sheesh.
I wanted to ask - please forgive me if you've talked about this before - if you've been given any type of medication for sleeping, or to slow or stop the mental cycling and dull the overactivation?
I don't blame you for feeling overwhelmed. That is why I live in a pretty constant dissociative state. If reality ever hits, it isn't nice.
No, I am not on meds at present. I believe that there is a case, sometimes, for a combination of meds, therapy and social suppport. But I do not believe on taking meds when the rest is absent, because the danger is that I then settle for what I have, rather than fighting for what I ought to have.
I have some diazepam, which I use for emergencies (such as the dentist yesterday - took 2 because in right state, only to find all is fine.), and I only use about 2 or maybe 3 in a month, so it is very occasional. Every time I see a doctor they try to talk me into taking antidepressants, and I generally agree to try, and then decide, actually, there is no point. I also have St John's Wort, which can take the edge off if I am getting too snappy with d, or something like that. It helps just enough.
I did take an anti-psychotic at one time, when I had a doctor I trusted. It was a tiny dose, and the first time I took it was really marvellous. It was as if someone had switched off a great noise in my head, and turned on a beautiful white light instead. I could still think, but it was so peaceful. However, that only lasted for an hour or two, and then the noise was back. So the doctor said to increase the dose, and I did, but the light never came back. Then he left, and I stopped taking them, because they were not having any effect.
I think it is that noise which tires me out. All that thinking going on, to very little effect. :lol:
What tends to happen with me is that the therapeutic effect gradually wears off, and I get left with the same symptoms, plus side effects from the meds. I end up on the highest doses, with nothing working. Which makes me think that the depression is in some way that we do not yet understand a protection, and something that my body is determined to maintain as long as it needs to, whatever chemicals get put into its way. So given that scenario, I prefer to let nature take its course, and know that whatever I have and whatever I feel is me, and nothing else.
I have written poems in the past about what all of this is like, and I have given them to therapists, but in my experience, none of them has read them, or used the information contained within them to achieve anything worthwhile. I generally get them back at the end, but then feel invisible. So I won't bother with that again. We learn as we go along. :)
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October, you sound very strong but also fatalistic.
Do any of the alternative things work v. your depression?
(Exercise, SAD light + tea, yoga...)
Hops
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Sov & Safe ,
I must say the icky can be removed. For any of the ones that were here when I first posted I was a truly in pain and believed I was worthless.
Not so any more .Funny how my h believed in me even when I did not .I do not know what that means but it is true.
The feeling is a kin to being on a beach with this film you can not remove and you walk and search and just over the hill there it is a pool of blue water you jump in and when you walk out you are washed of the film that was previously there free to experience the world with your true self.
S&S I can not agree more confronting the pain works for me square in the eye.Yep I ignore them as well.How was I to know it could get to a point where I just do not care.
But I do not want to cause pain I just believe after I have given so much to make foo look good It's my turn hello at 50 can I please live my life now?????
YES a big yes for healing !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D :D :D
Love Always
MoonLight,
p.s. I have kept the secret of the child abuse for all these years to protect parent I would like to find some way to help children in painful situations.
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I believe it is possible to heal from abuse. For me it takes stamina to endure the time required. My sister has taught me that the times of searing pain are the times we are healing most deeply. I don't believe in self pity. I mean that feeling bad about yourself and being in a psychological soup of self loathing seems to be part of healing.I am interruping those voices now with meditation or with really getting into them rather than trying to extinguish them. I also do tapping that I learned in EMDR and find it helps to move through panic attacks more quickly.
Crying while being held really helps restore my spirit.
I wonder about the question and the spirit of the question. Is this asked from a place a hopelessness? Connection with safe people really helps me. I find this site helps in that way.
What have you tried to help you heal from abuse? I think surviving abuse is sort of like surviving being mauled by a tiger. There are things you have to do automatically in order to survive the attack. The first thing is to get away fromt abuse and set boundaries ( even small ones).
Surrendering your burden to god, goddess and all that is helps to. Some things are just too big for a person to handle. Surrendering the burden and watching quietly for what comes to you is helpful,
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Hey Iknewangels,
I wonder about the question and the spirit of the question. Is this asked from a place a hopelessness? Connection with safe people really helps me. I find this site helps in that way.
The Spirit in which the question was asked was from knowing healing does happen .
I have felt all those feelings you have mentioned.
But my healing came when I understood the worthlessness I always felt was because of the guilt in my family of origin not in me.
So when I understood my behaviors and came here I started to detach from the source of my pain.
I am healing I like myself I will not tolerate ill treatment from others .These are ideas I never understood before.I am worthy.
Now I do feel safe I have learned so much about protecting myself and how to understand people's behaviors better.
I have learned from suffering but humans can learn without suffering this is true.
Resting at times in between the work is a good thing to do .
To pick up when you are stronger and process your feelings is a good idea.
I posted this question and my heart was already filled with the answer and where the answer began for me .
Love and compassion for self also to be strong for self and then for others.
To know how to heal means telling your truth in a way that is comfortable for you.
Blessings to you
moonlight
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Crying while being held really helps restore my spirit.
This might well help - I can see that it would. However, not everyone has someone they can trust enough to do the holding bit.
Some people have a tape which says, if you don't stop that crying I'll give you something to cry for. Which means that tears are shameful, and to be hidden. Any kind of vulnerability can be abused. Sad, but true.
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October, you sound very strong but also fatalistic.
Do any of the alternative things work v. your depression?
(Exercise, SAD light + tea, yoga...)
Hops
I am not fatalistic in the sense that I think I have no control over what happens to me, and that whatever is meant to be will happen. A lot of it will happen because I make it happen.
But I am realistic (I hope) about what is within my control, and therefore likely to happen, and what is subject to other people's varying levels of concern, and therefore less likely to happen.
Exercise does not lift the depression. Sunlight can help. Drinking tea can help. Yoga, I have not tried, but meditation is not good generally. Raises anxiety. I have to meditate while being active; gardening or whatever.
What helps most is physical human contact, but I have very little of this. Even a handshake can help me feel connected.
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October,
been reading back. Have you read ‘Prozac diary’ ? Your description reminded me of her experiences of Prozac and how she reached a point of no effect – and all her obsessive behaviours came back. Frightening stuff. She upped the dose and continued on it (don’t know what she does now but at the time she reckoned she’d be on them forever).
Which makes me think that the depression is in some way that we do not yet understand a protection, and something that my body is determined to maintain as long as it needs to
I agree in as much as I think that this can be true sometimes, for some people.
Crying, too true. I cry more now and more freely, I can cry in the street. I’ll probably get locked up for it one day!
Interesting, I have to try and remember to touch people – handshakes, hugs etc – have to make the effort to think about it, otherwise it doesn’t enter my mind and it’s not ‘natural’ to me. Does touch ‘ground’ you October? For me it invades my privacy/independence or something.
Moon
I love the image of the blue pool washing the film off. I’ve been having dreams like this over the past two years or so – always water, sometimes the sea, swimming through it and finding memories, washing the past. Dreams have told me a lot.
I would like to find some way to help children in painful situations.
Me too. How shall we?
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There's a program in my city that trains adult volunteers to be court advocates for abused children.
Your local courts should know if there's something like that in your area...
Or, you could volunteer at a shelter for battered women or a homeless shelter...there are always children there who need hugs and somebody to read to them and tutoring or just be around and play.
Hops
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Thank you Hops
Both of those choices sound good I will check these out of course with 2 attorneys working in the court system and these are the people that have been mean to me and one that was my abuser that would be very ironic.
but I still would like to volunteer......................
moonlight
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That's great, Moon.
I was thinking, too, that this is a way for October to find hugs and physical contact. Children need safe hugs and laps to sit on.
I think being touched is as necessary almost as drinking water.
When I was at church Sunday one of my best huggers, who knows it's just Buscaglia-type love hugs,
gave me a huge one. When I go to my Covenant Group, each time I hug every person who's willing. It literally fills a need. I can feel myself relax after a simple round of warm hugs. I am glad I finally recognized it...there have been times when I've gone for years without much touch at all. Sex is another need, but my Rx has made it easier to cope with celibacy. Not forever, I hope.
So here are some parentheses for you ((((((((((((((((((((((((()))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))) :?
Must go vote...
Hops