Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: penelope on August 29, 2006, 08:57:58 PM
-
Has anyone else had this experience:
you start to set boundaries with people. you change. you are not so pliable and pushed over so easily anymore. People are surprised, miffed even.
You can tell by their reactions that you're changing. Not all of it is good, but most of it is necessary, probably.
do people adapt? yes. Is it hard? i think so.
p. bean
-
Yes, yes, it's hard. But it's all good hard. No pain, no gain. This is exactly the kind of hard that means you're doing it right.
Gaining Strength
-
change-back reaction. people are used to taking advantage of you, or taking you for granted, or whatever; you change; they push back to try to make you back down.
you're breaking conditioning, also.
so you have both external and internal discomforts to contend with. while the folks pushing back at you have only external discomfort.
if you're inclined to feel sorry for them, remind yourself that, apparently, abusing you is ego-syntonic for them - that is, it doesn't feel bad to them to punish you for asserting yourself in a healthy way - and that should cure you of misplaced empathy in record time.
-
thank you Gaining strength
Storm - yep, that's definetely how it feels.
They're saying "change back! we liked you the other way when we could walk all over you and you did whatever we wanted..." :shock:
phoooooooooooey!
pb
-
Some people like it when you are compliant and easy to deal with. New boundaries are scary. But, as I know from recovery, it sure feels wonderful when you know what you want and where you stand, even if others don't like it. It's a lot more important that I feel good about what I am doing than wondering if others think I am doing the right thing.
When I quit drinking the first time, a lot of people at college (I'm one of those older grad students) had a hard time with it. Even though I was having fun, they couldn't understand why I wasn't getting drunk like them and like I used to. To me, that is an issue THEY had. I never asked them not to drink. I hung out with them when they did. I enjoyed their company. So how could it be a problem?
Good going PBean... Keep doing what is good for YOU!!!!
Love, Beth
-
oopsie... sorry to hijack your thread, PB, but I don't think I've ever said Hi and Welcome to Gaining Strength - Hi GS, welcome, kind of belatedly but still sincerely....
-
hi tt and storm,
no worries about detracting, it's alright with me. tt- that was very caring of you to share. thank you
hi beth,
thank you too
everyone's words reinforce "I'm OK." I know that, but sometimes it's nice to hear...
pb
-
Tt said: Your heart is being enlarged so that you can walk the path of your truth. Pb.
Amen.
It stretches and pains and stretches some more... so many weeds to be pulled and areas of good new growth to be cultivated.
Often, for me, it was as if my head were in a vise because that was the only way I could hold on to my resolve to reclaim what was rightfully mine.
Ditto that, Tt. In the very recent past, I would literally have what I imagine must be a panic attack when I had to lay out a boundary.
In my personal history, nothing was ever rightfully mine and if I tried to keep any part to myself, I'd feel guilty and shamed.
There is much to be said for choosing battles wisely, but of course some will just thrust themselves upon you and there is no choice but to stand with feet firmly planted and refuse to retreat. Sadness and grief and... a sense of nakedness, bare of the usual people-pleasing, shrinking-back clothing which used to clothe our inner selves. I used to think that self needed a complete makeover. Now I think she just needs the right accessories and a good all-weather coat.
Love,
Hope
-
Hi all
The placing of boundaries is very new for me.I have gained strength and I live in the now and enjoy trusting
myself .
My family is rooting for me (hubby and 2 daughters) Others n parent, sis and niece I just try and have little contact with as possible.
This for me is the healthiest road to be on .
When I go back to work I should be fine, we work like a team and
there are not boundary problems at work.We have worked together for years and are a small company and are lucky to have
a healthy atmosphere . When there is a problem it seems everyone feels free to voice said problem and it gets resolved.
I think the reason I am doing good now is I do not care what the n's are thinking or I care a whole lot less and I just do not see them or call them.I am sure they have noticed this change.
Moon
-
I never had a boundary in me. When I telemarketer called, I bought. When a salesman sold me, I bought. Someone asked me to work the nursery at church, I worked it (I hated it.) Lots of times I would say yes, then not show up. Avoid the person for years. All over a simple NO. I didn't divorce my first husband because my nmom said, "hate the sin, love the sinner" (found out he had had at least 20 women while we were married="the sin.")
But one day when I had had it - it was like a volcano erupted inside of me and I went on a rampage RAGE!!! Oh, I more than set boundaries......................anyway, it was soooooo hard on my nmom. She went through MAJOR withdrawals not being able to control me anymore. "Would you like to go to the State Fair?" No. "Can I sign up your daughter for VBS?" No. "Would you two like to join us for....." No.
"Hello, this is Joe Blow from XYZ company........." Click. "Can you work the nursery?" "I'm sorry, I am already booked at that time." "If I could get the payment on this car that you like today, can we sign the deal?" "No, I haven't decided yet, but thank you."
That is the most liberating feeling EVER. And the fact that I am in a network marketing company and I call people and ask them if they might be interested in learning more and they say no, I say "OK. By the way do you know anyone else who might be interested in pure, safe and beneficial products?" Gee, I lived and they told me NO!!
-
Hi pb and all ,
I have just found out the truth of this push back in others.It is so interesting who likes the change to a stronger self and who wants to pin you down.
It tells you a lot about the person you are interacting with.
I now am aware enough to see this in others that do not like the changing me.
Three guesses "who" does not like the improving happier me.lol
moon
-
Dear Kelly and Moon,
"We'll see" has become one of my favorite responses, especially to my children, when they are demanding an instant reply re: something they want to do/buy/attend or whatever. They were pretty skeptical when I first began to take this approach, because there was a time when I'd just say it to blow them off and get them outta my hair. But now those two little words come along with a commitment to think the matter through and give a decision within a specified time period and they know that I'm not just trying to evade the issue. Now that I don't feel obligated to say yes or pushed to give an instant no... "we'll see" works for me :)
Love,
Hope
-
Kelly, Moon, et all...
YOU GO GIRLS/GUYS!
Boundaries...AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH, good idea for sure!
-
Moon,
I live in the now and enjoy trusting myself.
What a great statement! :D
Hops
-
Hope, "we'll see" drives me crazy when my husband says it to me. Maybe because I wasn't used to getting boundaries. But with him, I felt like he was taking control of the situation. When we first got married he kind of bullied me - he had been hurt by a couple women and took it out on me. I would accept the "we'll see" until I just didn't care if he came or went.....................so then I came back with my own "boundary" and said something like, "well, you can see all you want but I'm doing what I want!!"
So, "we'll see" probably works with some - I suppose my nmom would hate it, too!!
-
Hi Kelly,
Well, I guess it depends what "we'll see" means. If it means "I don't want to talk about this, so I'm putting you off indefinitely and I hope the subject never comes up again", then I wouldn't like it either :? I think I only use the expression with my kids... cuz it's different with adults... seems like whatever the question or proposition is, it should involve more discussion and explanation in an adult setting, I think. Too much explaining to the kids sets up a whole other set of problems, so "we'll see" gives me time to think it over and talk it over with my husband before giving them an answer. Sometimes my husband says something like "we'll figure something out" ... which actually means, "I don't have a clue and I'm too tired to think about it now" ~ lol. O well. I'm just glad to not feel pushed to give an instant yes or no, but to take a bit of time and think things over :) I hope you have a great weekend!
Love,
Hope
-
Hi Kelly and Hope,
We'll see, was a necessary tool when my children were young. It usually meant, I don't have the presence of mind to give you a thoughtful answer right now, but I'll get back with you soon. And I did.
In adults, I'm always puzzled by the person whose first answer to everything is always, No. I asked someone who does that, Why? Answer? Because I already know exactly what I will do so no equivocation is required. Anyone relate?
teartracks
Greetings Kelly. I haven't said hello before. :)
-
Hi Teartracks,
Yes, I can relate to always saying no. For me, it sprang from a sense of being completely overwhelmed and not feeling like I could manage a single additional "yes" in my life. I think that always being prepared with a "no" stems from needing to have control/certainty in a life (purely an illusion, of course). Glad that phase has passed!!
Love,
Hope
-
Hello to you, too, Teartracks!! Well, I don't know which thread I read this one - "Hate the sin and not the sinner......" It has the same negative connotation to me as "we'll see................" Reason being - my nmom used that one on me when she forbad me to divorce my first husband...............(I actually stayed with him for five more years because I couldn't do anything my nmom wouldn't let me do - (that no longer happens after I had my blow up about four years ago..................))
But even though he had been with maybe 25 women during our marriage - that was the sin!! He was the sinner who could be helped. I don't know, analyzed to death, or forgiven by God? Funny thing is, I always thought you had to ask for forgiveness and mean it!!
So "we'll see" for me has been - I am avoiding the subject. I cannot be pressured into an answer right now. So, like I said, I said something like..............................well you can take your "we'll see" and I am going to go do what I want - now!!
Yes, with kids, you have to set those kinds of boundaries or they can drive you to distractions!! And empty your pocket book!
-
hi kelly,
kids are the master manipulators, aren't they? :) but they're allowed...
-
Kelly...I know what you mean.
Some of those edicts to love, from parents or teaching, can cause people to sacrifice themselves...
I have never truly sorted it out.
But a particularly painful 2nd marriage was the worst outcome of believing loving could cure all.
Hops
-
We'll see and Maybe are big ones for me too. Like someone ele mentioned here, it means to my children that I can't collect myself at that moment to make a decision or that I need to take stock of something before I make a decision. Since I carry though on my promises, my children trust me enough to wait that bit and understand that the answer might be No.
In my house, we were promised all kinds of things and rarely did those promises ever become reality. I vowed never to do that to others in my life.
I can understand how We'll see can be used differently, though.
Thanks for the topic. A lot to ponder here.
Love, Beth
-
Boundary setting is so important. Has anyone read Boundaries by Cloud and Townsend. Gee, what a concept. But you know, when living your life like a puppet for so long is the natural thing, and then you cut those marionette strings, you kind of drop. And that poor puppet master - he keeps a tugging on those strings and when that puppet don't move............stupid puppet!
-
Hi Kelly,
I've read it. In fact, it's what got me started on boundary setting when I was married to N. Gave it to one of my daughters to read, as well!
There are other Boundary books also... one on marriage and another for use with children, but I haven't read them yet.
Re: that puppetmaster... I used to think of N ex-husband that way. Picture this... you know how the puppeteer works behind the curtain so that only the "dummy" appears up front?
Well, for you, that curtain fell a while back, but N just doesn't know it. It doesn't even matter whether anyone else notices, because the important thing is that you see who is pulling the strings.
You mentioned on another thread that you can't go to your mom to fix your husband. I used to tell my mother about some of my marriage difficulties and I remember feeling out of control about that... like, why in the world am I telling her these things?? I knew better than to give her any ammunition, yet I kept reloading her gun, knowing all along that it was pointed at me. Kelly, you can stop that cycle. You really can. You can look within yourself and find the reasons behind the scenes and take all of that to the one Person who can refill you, lift you up out of the pit, and strengthen you to stop repeating history.
I know that you can do this and I'm praying for you.
Love,
Hope
-
Hi Kelly,
Boundaries by C&T...Read it. Loved it. Changed me. Better for the soul than Chocolate, and that's some kind of good!
teartracks
-
That book was the first time I read that I could actually say NO and live. Gee whiz, I wonder how I functioned all my life being pulled in one direction or the other. I haven't read the marriage or children or dating boundary books but everything in my life would probably be going better if I had. I do set boundaries with husband - I say things like, "There's the door if you don't like it...." Well, maybe that's a little more than boundaries..................but I was jerked around by him in our first year of marriage so my boundary was either treat me better or there's the door!
-
Regarding the situation with husbands... I've been married 13 years (Man, that is sooooo hard for me to believe) and I love my husband 96.43 percent of the time. There are times when he is a huge pain in the ass, and one of those times was a couple of months before he left for Iraq. I stupidly mentioned to my mother that we were going through a rough period and I got lambasted by her on how I should be spending more time with him and we should do things as a couple, yada, yada, yada... I mean for WEEKS I got this info from her. Of course it goes with what she believes in... that your relationship with your husband should come way before any concern about your children. But you know how she made me feel, too... like I was planning on abandoning our relationship because we had this short time of being distant. She has done it to me before too. That is why I am determined now to never talk to her about anything besides the weather again.
-
That makes so much sense..................no, my mom thinks of my children above anyone...........that is the ONE thing that she has going for her. Now, my husband, on the other hand, thinks I should put our marriage before the children.............Well, it was me and the girls for 6 years - all alone - a house like a sorority.............then he moves in and basically is an interloper and expects me to chose him over the girls. Well, can't do it................they are more important to me than he. Love him 50% of the time but not enough to choose him over the girls..............
-
Hi Kelly,
Personally, I believe in the whole "two become one flesh" quality of marriage. To me, this means not just physical oneness, but also spiritual and emotional unity. As their mother, emotionally and spiritually, I don't become one with my children... but rather, my goal is to equip them with the tools they'll need in order to separate from me at the appropriate time. With my husband, since God brought us together and binds us in unity, I don't even consider it a matter of choosing him above my kids... we are one in unity over the kids.
Kelly, I have a blended family and I know that my husband felt like an interloper at first. We all had to make room for him, since he moved into our home. Not just physical space, but emotional space, as well, along with an openness to welcome his input into what had become our routine, our traditions, and our patterns. We had to compromise alot and we also had to make a concerted effort to form new traditions that would be ours alone. It's been 2 1/2 years for us and we're still settling in. We could never survive if either of us considered our priorities as a choice between our mate and our kids. No way.
It's got to be "us", the family unit, with 2 parents presenting a united front to the kids... or everything falls apart at the seams.
My husband has not always been deserving of my respect, nor have I always earned his respect, but I had to give him authority in our home. Yes, authority. Over the kids. I had to give it to him, because a woman ruling the roost will undo a man quicker than anything. That is what I believe. I watched my mother rule her house with an iron fist and it's rubbish, totally backwards. My husband and have the understanding between us that we'll discuss things before he implements a plan with the children, but they know that he has full authority and that we are a team. Of course he's not going to get away with taking us along to help him rob a bank or something. I mean within reason, within the law, within the guidelines of rational, mature, adult behavior. If I didn't make it clear to the kids that he is the man of the house in every sense of the term, they'd play us one against the other to no end and there would never be peace. They have tried, but we've just had to be sensitive to that and not allow it to go unaddressed.
I used to be so afraid to bring up any problems. Some people I know would get all upset and angry and read their husband the riot act if he acted like an idiot, but I would just clam up and feel miserable. Now I know that excessive drinking or drug use or raging are definitely issues that need to be addressed and some firm boundaries drawn. It's not even that I got over my fear of conflict, it's just the fear of not speaking up has become greater. That's kinda why I'm writing to you now. I know alot of folks give advice and come across as thinking it's all so simple and why don't you just see it. But I really do know how hard it is to face some of the things that come up in marriage, and I certainly don't think I have it all figured out; I just don't want you to think your situation is impossible. See, to me it's not about trying to fix your husband, it's about creating a strong, secure home for your whole family. When I didn't know how to face up to the tough stuff, I never felt safe. Now I have much more confidence in my own ability to be direct and calm and not overreact, but it's taken alot of practice. I don't pray "Oh, God, make my husband a better man". Instead I pray, "O God, give me a heart of love for him and wisdom to know how to deal with these situations. Change me as You see fit and give me strength". It's not easy at all, but it works.
I'm not sure what you mean by "choosing him over the girls", but allowing dangerous behavior to continue would not be choosing your husband at all. That would actually be choosing against him, I think. We need each other to hold each other accountable and talk some very straight talk lest either of us strays off the path. If my husband liked to get drunk, I'd tell him my concern for his own wellbeing and for my family and me. I'd offer my support in his efforts to quit and get involved in digging to the roots of the problem as much as I could. But if he refused to stop and refused to get help, I'd engage someone else to try to talk with him ... another Christian man, in our case. If he still didn't respond, I think we'd have to separate until he showed a sincere effort to overcome it and a willingness to be held accountable. That wouldn't be choosing my kids or myself above him, it would be choosing the truth above a lie and standing strong for my family. Really, it would be choosing life instead of death.
In our life, it's God first, then marriage, then children. Has to be that way, from our perspective, because without the firm foundation, the rest crumbles.
Hope this helps.
Much love,
Hope
-
Well, Hope, sometimes I feel like there is hope for us. I see a little light at the end of the tunnel. Other times I want out as fast as possible but can't get there in my present situation. So for me to honor him and somehow make him more important to me than my own flesh and blood - just can't do it. He really hasn't stepped up to the plate and been any kind of a "father" figure. He never had children so has no experience either. He is a bit stoic and awkwardly backward and shy around people he doesn't know. He would rather sit around and get drunk and try to hide that fact from my kids..................I threaten to reveal his secrets cuz I don't like those dysfunctional family rules. So, no he doesn't get to be second. It really is NOT God, husband, children in my book it is God, children, husband........................maybe in the future but not now and only if he shapes up.
-
Dear Kelly,
He is a bit stoic and awkwardly backward and shy around people he doesn't know. He would rather sit around and get drunk and try to hide that fact from my kids
That describes me just a few years ago. When I remarried after N, my husband's care, tenderness, and patience carried me through the remainder of that darkness. It's a terrible thing to feel so overwhelmed by circumstances that it seems better to hide in a bottle than face reality. I was there and I remember so well the sense of hopelessness. He didn't demand perfection, just made it clear that he wanted to be with me, no matter what. He prayed for me, too. I don't know where I'd be if it weren't for him and the way God used him to show me what love really is. Sometimes I still want to bolt and run, but I can't forget where I was, and that helps me remember what it takes to stand fast.
He set a good example for me then and didn't turn away. I can't do anything less for him, even when it's obvious that he's just an imperfect man. I hope I don't sound like your mom. Just telling you my story because it's true... and to me, that's what marriage is all about. Not 50/50 at all.. sometimes it's 90/10 as one helps the other to his/her feet.
Love,
Hope
-
OK, so here's what I think about that. One day I have had it and I am ready to drop kick him. The next day I am sympathetic and feel I was irrational. I do that a lot = my emotions do tend to go up and down, up and down................
I had a conversation with him today and told him that while his career is on an uphill swing, his drinking can derail all the positives...even if it doesn't happen immediately. He went away and came back and acknowledged that if he were to get caught drunk driving it could ruin his career as our newspaper publishes the names of intoxicated drivers.
I even told him that I wasn't opposed to social drinking, it was the need to get drunk every Thursday, Friday and all day Saturday - every week that made me uncomfortable. I said couldn't you limit your drinking to just one day a week?? Well, he came back with, couldn't he start later in the day on Saturday and make sure he ate first?? Well, in my mind that is a baby step - but a step. There is a difference between cracking the first beer at 10 am and being passed out by 2 pm, and having lunch at noon and drink a few beers while watching a football game at 2:30.......................still not perfect, but a step.
So, Hope, while I understand where you are coming from, I have been with a couple of men who have sucked the life out of me. And if I feel for one minute that my new husband is going to fall in line with the rest of them and take and take and take and never give a thing, then I will not stay, and I DEFINITELY will not put him before my children!!
Boy, If I called into Dr. Laura she would let me have it, wouldn't she? She would have told me to not get remarried until I had my children raised in the first place!!
-
Hi Kelly,
I am not on the same page about sacrificing almost everything to try to help an alcoholic.
I think it's a way of assuming responsibility for their sobriety. And I believe they sense it and are only to happy to keep us hanging on by pulling us into their negotiations. I think his offer to "eat first, then get drunk" is classic.
I do believe in compassion, forgiveness, and love. (I continued to love my D's alcoholic father, but when he would not accept the reality of his addiction, within six months, I initiated divorce.)
For me, because I do not take scripture as my authority, when I realized he was willing to hold me and my child hostage to his addiction, all the while I suffered intensely while he was pleasantly numb from being always drunk or stoned...
I had a "click" moment when I said to myself: My life matters. My YEARS matter. My precious TIME matters. More than any words printed or spoken. Words are words and my life is my LIFE. I will die. And I will not want to look back and say, you gave it away, to someone who would not fight for you. Or himself.
And that was when my rebellion against the vows I held sacred and that for so long held me prisoner began. It's over. And now I know what my own limits are, never mind a mate's.
I would like to marry again. I will never again promise "'til death us do part." I will never again ask anyone else if my well-being is important enough to sever a relationship over, even a married one.
Hops
-
Comment on the eat first and then get drunk thing..........................well, we went out to eat Saturday night. He did some yard work and ate lunch. Then we went to a Sports Bar and had a couple before dinner. Had a steak dinner with salad, bread, veggies, baked potato. We had a couple during the dinner. We both went home and were not drunk at all. I said, "See? You CAN drink socially...............the goal should never to be drunk!! And especially at the age of 46..................in fact that party was over 20 some years ago!!"
But if drinking causes a personality change and the personality change brings out Mr. Hyde............and you don't know that person and he continues to do that over and over again - then the vows go out the door. It's a deal breaker.............and part of the negotiation does not include my kids.
Does that make sense??
-
hi kelly,
After living with an alcoholic, I have no tolerance for drinking of any sort. I don't have any children. Even without children I sensed that I was unprotected when I was around the alcoholic. It felt like I was being sucked into a dark hole from which I would never escape...it kept getting worse and worse for me.
Well, I did get out, after a fight where he kicked me out (and threatened to kill me).
Now, after watching someone get drunk everyday like clockwork for over a year.. I feel that if my current b/f did that just - 1 time - it would send me into an anxiety attack. I will never go there again
How do you feel?
hugs,
p bean
-
Well, it's a vicious cycle. Because I know without a shadow of a doubt that he will drink on Thursday night (hey, tomorrow is Friday!!) Then he'll drink Friday night and then he'll drink all day Saturday - especially THIS Saturday - our state rivals are playing in football. Oh, and let's see - if he feels too yucky Sunday, he might have a few "hair of the dog."
I get upset every single week, then he tells me he'll try to do better. It hasn't gotten to the point where I am running the other way. The BF before him I finally ran as fast as I could the other way - but meanwhile, my nmom was trying to fix him for me!
So, I go up and down, up and down. If he is really bad one weekend, I want out. If he maintains his cool than I tolerate it a little. The first year we were married he was horrible. I almost divorced him. Pointed to the door and said "Walk through it!!"
But the real conversation started with choosing my husband over my kids. You know, God first, husband second and kids third. But I said NO. There is NO way I will choose him over them, period.
-
Hi Kelly,
I'm so glad you posted again here. I'm sorry ... I meant to come back here and respond yesterday and never did! Didn't want you to think I was avoiding your earlier replies.
I do understand your perspective re: putting your kids first above your husband. I have been there and when dealing with N, there was no option.... he was, after all, (by his choice of behavior) another "kid" and not an adult mate.
Do you have any thoughts re: how you can set boundaries for his behavior this weekend? Apparently his weekend begins on Thursday. Maybe he needs to know in advance, today, what will be the consequences if he chooses to drink his way through till Monday?
I don't know, just a thought. I'd sure like to help you come up with a plan! See, he's getting away with it now, so there's no real incentive to change. Sometimes separation is needed in order to enforce boundaries, too. What would happen if you told him...
"Hey, you want to drink for 4 days, you'll have to do it someplace else. The kids and I will be here at home when you are determined to be sober and stay that way, so just give me a phone # wherever you'll be, in case of emergency".
Seriously, Kelly... what would happen?
((((((Kelly))))))) Glad you are still posting.
Love,
Hope
-
Hi Kelly,
Sorry it's taken me so long...I was away for a week.
Your post did make sense, but I'd offer this caveat:
Moderate drinking for men is defined as no more than 2 drnks a day (beer/wine, booze, all count the same)
Moderate dirnking for women is defined as no more than 1 drink a day
So if you each had 4 that day...is it possible you're slipping down the same slope? It would be horrible if he took you with him into a life that revolved around getting, protecting, keeping, timing, negotiation about, and drinking alcohol.
This is Sunday morning....how has your time since Thursday gone?
Hops
-
Not even close. I probably drink like that maybe a couple times a year. Although in my past I was a lush. I dont even like it that much and have to choke it down sometimes. No it is not a problem for me (thank God)
-
I haven't had time to read many of the posts in this thread, but wanted to add that I'm very proud of you who CAN set boundaries. I would never have been able to with my parents, I simply couldn't. The few times I tried it was horrible and I felt like the worst daugher/person in the world. Only since my parents have passed away, have I been able to begin to deal (in a healthy way) with what I went through.
So to those of you who can and do implement boundaries, I applaud you! I know it's traumatic, but you are very brave! Give yourself and pat on the back!!
Adrift
-
((((((((((adrift)))))))))) ((((((((((kelly))))))))))
-
Not even close. I probably drink like that maybe a couple times a year. Although in my past I was a lush. I dont even like it that much and have to choke it down sometimes. No it is not a problem for me (thank God)
Hi Kelly,
why do you have to do this. Is it in order to drink along with him, so he looks more normal?
Plucky
-
Hi Kelly,
Thanks for clarifying...glad you're not in the bucket too.
I send you strength and courage for yourself and your children too.
Love is both our strength and an Achilles' heel sometimes.
Different kind of love might be where you're going...do you think?
Hops
-
Plucky, the question about why do I do it? Well, I guess maybe I think it is the thing to do. And every once in awhile the thought of having a couple sounds alright to me, but most of the time I really don't want it. A big glass of water with a lemon slice does me so much better. I mean, if I am in a group of people who are having a drink, I think I should have a drink.
And Hops? If you read the guilt thread you will see that I have gone to my first Al-anon meeting after a raging drunk on Friday (husband..........) That was wonderful!!
I just cannot say enough about all of you and what you have done for me. Given me the umpf to get off my butt and take care of little old me!!
And Adrift.........I totally understand about not setting boundaries. I watched One Flew Over the Cuckoos Nest the other day with my 19 year old daughter. The part where Billy Babbit had sex with that gal and stopped stuttering and then Nurse Ratchett said, "What is your mother going to think about this, Billy?" And then he started stuttering again and ended up committing suicide?? I felt some definite anxiety from that because my mom used to have that much control over me. It took a major thing to happen for me to break down and freak out and set boundaries with her. It was a difficult time and I was labelled unstable, but in the long run it has been worth it!
-
I saw it, Kelly!
You WENT!
:D :D :D :D :D
(((((((((((Kelly))))))))))
Hops
-
I know!! I am on a roll. I just hope it will all work out. This morning my h came over and gave me a big hug. I know he would be devastated to lose me..............he was so lonely before me. Came home from work, listened to music, watched a little TV...no one to talk to. I know his former wife probably left him due to his alcoholic rages - or at least that was a part of it. He thinks he can just beat it. All the literature I read after going to the meeting last night says alcoholism is a disease, just like diabetes. They said you would never divorce your husband over diabetes, so why divorce him over alcoholism?? Problem with that, for me, is that he brought his alcoholism into my home and presented himself as a non-drinker. It wasn't until he had me that he started the Jekyl/Hyde routine. In fact, the first time I saw the flip was on our honeymoon. All of a sudden, this angry, brutal man came out and I just couldn't believe it. Then for the next year he drank and became Mr. Hyde on a regular basis. Now he does pretty good at getting drunk but keeping his mouth shut, but occasionally that sinister man comes out. So - I'm done - and if he doesn't get help, it's over!! Plain and simple. And my children will hold me accountable because I outed him this weekend!!
-
hi kelly,
wow. something must have been eating at the back of your mind for awhile to make these decisions so [seemingly] suddenly? remember that throughout this process, it may seem like things are getting worse, but they always do get better, k?
I am rooting for you. You are worth it, you deserve to be kind to yourself and find a safe place.
hugs,
p bean
p.s. When I stopped drinking almost 2 years ago, it was hard to be around drinkers and say "no thanks. But now, people just accept it and hand me a soda. They can think whatever they want, but they're the ones getting drunk, not me. 8)
-
Hey Kelly,
I apologize for coming out with this after all that urging, but I do need to add something. This is the only thing that worries me about AlAnon, but it's a serious concern:
They said you would never divorce your husband over diabetes, so why divorce him over alcoholism??
It's a vast over-simplification and it is NOT for them to judge that anyone "should" stay married in order to "work the (AlAnon) program." You deserve support and understanding, but I am very leery of some groups that impose an underlying religious judgement on someone else's decision about a marriage. (I actually disagree with that premise, pretty vehemently. What alcoholism does to a personality and a relationship is far more pernicious, emotionally, than a physical disease. Although certainly diabetes due to uncontrolled eating is self-destructive...alcoholism destroys not just one body, but whole families at the same time.)
So take what is useful and leave the rest! (Sorry to say boundaries are needed there too, but it's all about trusting yourself. You can do it!)
Hops
-
Well, Penelope, all this HAS been eating at me for years. The nmom thing and the husband thing. You guys actually got me to think and ACT!! Thanks!!
And Hops? I totally agree with you!! He came into our marriage under false pretenses. He told me when we met that he did not drink. The truth was that he had been sober about two months when I met him. We were married six months later. Dr/Mr came out on our honeymoon!!! Can you believe that? On his best behavior until the honeymoon??? Suspicious. Drunk. Accusatory. Jerk. I put up with it the whole first year and told him "there's the door." So I have watched him be pretty good for the last 4 years. Still drunk but not raging.............until Friday!!!
So diabetes, I can deal with. Raging drunk, I cannot!!
-
hi again kelly,
I cannot believe it! That is very strange behavior indeed. Also tough, for an alcoholic...(my T would probably say I bet he was sneaking drinks! She is also a substance abuse counselor)
When I lived with my alcoholic b/f only 4 years ago, I was in denial about his alcoholism (and didn't completely understand it) because he was such a good convincer, so I know how convincing an alcoholic can be. Especially when we think we should "love" them..ie, coverup, enable, etc. He even convinced me that his high blood pressure due to drinking excessively, probably, was "OK" since he didn't plan on living past ~65! If that wasn't a warning sign that he was bad for me, I don't know what was. Why did I think it was OK to "let" him slowly kill himself everyday in front of my eyes, and that it was OK for me to put up with it, as he became more and more distant, and eventually completely emotionally unavailable? How could I think this wasn't damaging and influencing me, and changing my whole person?
Since learning to trust myself, I hope I couldn't make those same mistakes about a person again. I hope you will get stronger fast too. :)
bean
-
So.... if you had a bad disease... diabetes or cancer, say... would you seek help?????? Of course you would. One of the guys at my AA meetings always says, if you had AIDS or cancer, and someone reached out his hand and said, here is the cure... all you have to do is follow the 12 steps... what would you do???
So, yes, your husband has a disease. I don't doubt that we alcoholics have a compulsion for alcohol and a reaction that is not "normal." But we can choose to get help. Sadly, many of us wallow in the I-can-do-it-myself thoughts that your husband still holds.
Kelly, you are doing marvellously... I am just so thrilled to read everything you write every day. And... by the way... some of the ideas in Al Anon can be used for dealing with your mom as well.
Love you,
Beth
-
Penelope: Thanks for starting this thread. It has gone from here to there and I think I kinda highjacked it. But for me it was all about setting boundaries. I am so thankful for this thread (and a couple others) because I have got some excellent feedback. This is definitely cheaper than the $100 per 45 minute T. By the way, my mom and I are going together tomorrow!! That should be interesting. I have to remember to keep my cool because she makes me crazy and sometimes I fly off the handle!!
I agree, Beth, that Al-Anon should help with all my issues. I think it would work if you were dealing with an N (my mom) or a sexual addict (my ex) or an alcoholic (my h.) Geez. I've got them all around me. (In fact, my 19 year old daughter is a lot like my nmom, when I get together with just those two I am ganged up upon and it is an icky feeling.............) And I won't allow them to "make" me stay with my husband. He's an alright guy when he's sober. He's a little boring (as in he repeats himself over and over and over - almost like he is rehearsing something to me, to say to others..............like he just gave his two weeks notice and he told me he was going to say......blahblahblah................and he told me the story like 10 times!!) And we really don't have much in common. He is stuck on a rock group from the early 80s and listens to them over and over and over again. He's obsessed with them and I find that boring. So if I can deal with him boring me to death without being a raging drunk, I'll stay. Sometimes I think I should get my ducks in a row so that if I decide to go, I will have an exit strategy......
But between you guys and Al-anon, daily Bible reading and self help books, I should do ok!!!
-
That'll be $100 hee hee.
You HAVE to tell me... what rock group is it???????
One thing they say in the program is not to make any life-changing decisions for a year while you get your ducks in a row. It's amazing how much clarity you get over that time and how you really do figure out how to deal with and solve problems!!!! The people around you are still the same, but they annoy you less when you are lloking at them differently :)
Love and more love, Kelly!!!
Beth
-
Well, he's obsessed with Journey. I mean, it is over the top. He has that CD in his car and that's all he listens to. Whenever he has me in his car, I'm trapped and he plays that same CD. Then he says, "Listen to that, Kelly, TALENT!! I've got goosebumps!"
And I am not kidding. That is word for word what he says and has said for the last five years. It's like a broken record and is extremely exhausting!!
Oh, I don't think I'll leave him if he can stay sober. And I am going to say this but will probably get some flack for it - I don't even care if he drinks on special occasions. It doesn't bother me if he parties like say at a Christmas party for work. We stay at this hotel. No driving......I know I could do it and I hope he can............................does that sound stupid?
-
Yep. The problem is .... there is no such thing as Just the Office Christmas Party. As they say in AL-anon, "keep coming back." That's the best way to learn - or the hard way. I've experienced it both. Hate to tell you - it's all or nothing.
My late husband thought he could drink socially after 8 years sobriety. He did - for a while and then it was all the time. Pretty nasty. Very sad.
yours - Gaining Strength
-
Hi Kelly,
good luck with your mom and the T. There are lots of people up here who have tried this (I have) and it wasn't pretty. Has your T had enough time to know you and be on your side, or is there a possibility that your mother the N will convince him she is alright?
Others can counsel you better on this, I just want you to be prepared for the risks of doing this so soon into your therapy. It sounded like your T was ok and a safe place for you to go and vent and more.
Plucky
-
Hi Kelly,
just saw your othe rpost where you went and it was ok. This is good! I think! So your T was parroting what your mother said? How did that go? You ok with that?
Plucky
-
Have to add too that we of the drunk variety can't drink just sometimes. We can for a wee bit... but then it takes us over yet again and even worse.
You know, if he becomes the person he is, without the chemical enhancements, you might begin to even like Journey... or at least begin to start teasing him for being a dork. My husband is a dork a lot of the time, but so am I :)
Love to you Kelly,
Beth
-
Beth, I have totally lost that cool thing, too. I still think I'm cool but I'm not!! :lol:
And Plucky? No, I am not alright with the T. She has him snowed (as usual....) I believe that he thinks I am over dramatizing the extent of her persona...................he doesn't have enough first hand knowledge to know her or understand her. The last T we went to said, "Well, all I can see is that Kelly doesn't like you................" Well, we will never going back to him. (Even though it's pretty much true, my mom cannot hear such truth........)
And my mom is so delusional that she thinks the problem is a two or three month thing - something we can counsel away. So I told him, this is NOT a current situation, this is the same problem I have been dealing with for 12 years..............it is NOT going away. We are at a stalemate. The situation HAS to change. Either she leaves or I leave or we sell...........................isn't it interesting? She won't leave. She would rather sell than give me the chance to do it on my own - no trust. Problem for her is - I would be great and I don't think she could handle me making it successful without her!!
-
Hi Kelly,
it sounds like you are trying to change the relationship with your mother by going into therapy with her. My opinion, right or wrong, is that you are wasting your time, your money, and throwing away a perfectly good therapist.
The only thing you can change is your own reactions to your mother. Any other endeavor is a waste. You do not need the T to second your opinions about your mother. You just need to heal yourself and extract yourself from this unhealthy relationship.
Plucky
-
Kinda.................I am not going to the therapist other than my mom suggested it and I said I would. But I also told her I wasn't going to go with her at first because I didn't want the T to think we were going to fix me. I told her I didn't think I was the one with the problem. I went yesterday and my emotions have run the gament. I felt pretty good after being with just him and me - you know, the cure the inner child thing..............I felt pretty good all week. Then we went yesterday and I have replayed the session over and over in my mind. In fact, I was wide awake at 1:45 this morning mulling it over in my mind. I realized that my nmom is a master at "looking good." We were always a family where "appearance management" was in place. I never felt good about this and maybe I always acted like someone from a completely different family - a lot of times I would present myself as someone from a pretty ordinary family - and my mom was loaded. But no one knew that because my mom never got involved in my affairs so none of my friends really knew her. Oh, some people knew I lived in the nicest area of town but those that did always commented on the fact that I didn't act like a rich kid.
Anyway, I will never change that woman and I know it. My intent is always to have someone hear me. This didn't work with the T and we don't have another session booked. We pretty much came to the conclusion that we were at an impass at work and there was nothing that could be done to change our stalemate. No, Plucky, I'm not trying to change my mom (I mean, I have tried but it is such an exercise in futility................don't know why I have been banging my head against a brick wall for so many years....) I think I have finally decided that the fight (that no one can win) is just not worth doing..........so I choose to continue to hope and pray that somehow God is in control and He will turn things around..............I just have to believe that. Otherwise, I just wouldn't have any HOPE!! And that seems to be what we all need - some hope!!!
-
Oh, and Beth.........................I don't think my h can go without drinking. So everyone, I guess I am just going to have to wait until he can go no longer and then deal with him drunk again. I just cannot see him quitting from this day forward and never drinking again. In fact, he didn't have to work today and he told me his whole itinerary - and then he said he wasn't going to "you know what." And what that said to me is that he had to rehearse all that because afterall, it's Thursday and his weekends always start on Thursdays. He doesn't have to work tomorrow so we'll see if he drinks after his meeting tonight.....................
And Journey? They are good but I will never love them!
-
Kelly,
Perhaps he will get "Sick and tired of being sick and tired." Another ism we have is that you get to a point where you can't live with alcohol and you can't live without it.
The main point is that you understand it has NOTHING TO DO WITH YOU.
He will go on as he wishes and you will make the decision about what is best for YOU.
I can't stand Journey either and my dorky husband loves it. In fact, I hate about 80% of the music he likes. Bleeccchhh.
Love, Beth
-
Well h is home today and so far I haven't seen any sign of drinking - wonder what he'll do later on when I go to a football game with my daughter's boyfriend. Journey - real good band but his obsession is annoying. He just doesn't have that artistic thing going on. You know, being able to enjoy new stuff and old stuff..............stuck in the past. Then I was watching a television preacher today and he said something like "when people take out their frustrations from a former relationship on you....." sounds like my husband!
-
Hi Kelly,
Your mother set you up. She got a therapist who is clueless about her kind, she told her story first, and you were able to get something out of the session but ultimately, she stabbed you in the heart again.
However, this is only what you would expect from such a woman. I think therapy could be good for you, you seem so able to change in a positive way and you have such strength and energy. Just not one that your mother selected and indoctrinated.
Plucky
-
Plucky: She DID set me up. When she went to the therapist (first) she had all the documentation and rationalization for my immediate frustrations. He DID talk in terms of what my mother told him - yes, I was up all night night before last reliving the frustation of it all. However, what I don't think she anticipated is that I let that be a drop in the bucket and globalized it. I told him it wasn't about the last couple of months - it was about the last 12 years!! Not a day went by during the WHOLE time we have had the store that I wasn't planning my exit!!! (If you have seen the movie, The Count of Monte Cristo - with Jim Cavaziel - he was in that prison for 12 years, too.....) Hey, maybe I'll be like the Countess of Monte Cristo and finally get to settle all my scores!!!
Anyway, stab me in the heart??? Well, not exactly. It doesn't affect me that way anymore. What it does is confirm how I feel and further my drive to get out. You all have commented on my determination and resolve - it's there. I am hellbent to move forward - whether it's my side business or if we sell and the new owners hire me....................anything to get out from under my mom. She truly is the sand in the machine - everything she does just complicates everything else. She slows down every process.............
Anyway..................she is pretty good at shining a light on me - declaring me whatever - and looking great. Isn't that what Ns are all about?
-
hi S + S,
right on! the thing that I've been trying to figure out is...why is it necessary to blame someone All the Time? It's crazy, nuts. The person who is to blame isn't the looney one, it's that guy (or woman) pointing the finger all the time..they need to get a life!
hugs,
p bean
-
p bean: Didn't get that one? Were you saying it was us poor victims who are to blame? Or the N who tries to make us crazy? Because in my case, it is probably my reactions to the insanity that exacerbate the problem and make it unnerving...how was that for trying to use big words? What I mean to say is I react to her crazy making which ultimately makes me look crazy!
-
Hi Kelly,
You've only had 1 or 2 sessions with this T, right? Hope you'll give it a little more time.
And I hate to be subersive (no I don't :)) but what would be wrong with saying, quietly and firmly to the T:
I believe what I have been trying to cope with is narcissism, and I hope that you are well-read on it.
Just plant the seed?
Hops
-
Hops: You see, I emailed the T and told him I thought my mom was a narcissist. Then I sent him one of the links I found here which outlined N characteristics. I did this BEFORE my mom came in. I didn't use the term N in front of my mom but I did say things like she is "self absorbed......." I told him that she had the Princess Diana syndrome and that she needed the accolades and attention.........so we are not going back. He said, "If you feel that you need to come back then do.........." We both said we didn't. Because we are at an impasse. Neither one of us had a heated thing to say during the session together. We both see things from our perspective and neither one of us is going to budge. Now let me tell you - THAT is major growth for me, because there was a time that I basically did whatever she told me to do - but I felt like a puppet and I just hated the way I felt around her. So even though I am in prison, I have made so much progress!! No, no more therapy. Al-anon will keep me accountable to people and help me to keep my resolve!!! And you guys can keep putting me into my place when you see me spinning out of control!! Please do!!
-
Sorry, Kelly, I forgot that you'd already told him that.
Well, it's a shame there was no spark of help or hope there, but you sound okay about your support.
Sending more...
Hops
-
hi kelly,
sorry, that was confusing. I meant that N's like to point the blaming finger all the time, lots of relatives are ready to jump on the bandwagon of hating the person that finger gets pointed at (the scapegoat), but really, it's the guy (or gal), the N, who's doing all the pointing that needs to get their head examined!
I am now very skeptical of someone pointing a finger at anyone (myself included). I always like to examine all the possible motives. Only after I can find none is it possible for me to say, OK, I'll take a look at this person you want to blame....
I have found myself become a whole lot more forgiving of people, since I learned about N. Before, since I was raised with Ns, I thought it was normal to just go around blaming people for all sorts of things, such as: (said in a whispered voice) I think that woman is depressed. or That guy is probably an alcoholic. or that kid is just a bad seed. etc
Now I'm finding I have a strong aversion to finger pointing. I just don't see how it's necessary to get through life. Typically those pointing fingers (not us, we're pointing out our Ns and coming to self-realization, which is different) are doing so to shift the blame and shame they have, their deep pain, onto others. Only when we realize where pain comes from, and learn not to transfer it, can we become whole.
I'm sorry to hear your T experience went so poorly...but then, I'm not surprised. There are some really bad T's out there. Some just clueless. I was lucky to have found a really great T who understands N, recently. I emailed her initially with the request: I would like to find a T who can help me divorce my N parents. So that sort of set the precedence. I didn't feel like it was necessary for her to meet my Mom, as I'd already made this decision. She is 100% on my side, for me..the other T I saw with my Mom, always felt like a conflict of interest or something with that one. I could never tell who he was pulling for. I find it is probably impossible to remain neutral in this case. Your T's job is to support you, to nurture you, and to become a soft place to fall. I just don't see how they could do that if they were in contact with N. Typically, in my case, I've felt anyone sympathetic to my Ns just didn't understand.
hugs,
p bean
-
You were lucky and smart, PB.
I just meant with Kelly that a T can't instantly sympathize with an N if you go in WITH the N.
S/he's got to maintain an appearance of neutrality for quite a few sessions and then deal with the N isssues gradually.
If you go in with an N, and the T says, well you're the N so you're the problem and you have a usually incurable personality disorder, so I won't listen to anything you say and she (the other person) is right about everything and I'm on HER side...it won't get anywhere.
Reminds me of a friend who's got her adult son in therapy and he said to his mom, I don't like the long silences, he just doesn't say anything, and she's ready to call up the T and say, better start talking more, my son's getting bored....after 2 sessions.
Anyway, it's differnt for every person and every situation, that's for sure.
Hops
-
You said it. This T is between a rock and a hard place. We both know what the problem is and he couldn't really take sides. He was trying to be VERY neutral. You know, "how about you clearly define what is each of your position, what decisions you get to make and then stay within those confines.........." Well, I said NO. She will not stay within boundaries. As long as she gets to do what she wants and I have to do whatever she wants - only then will she be happy. But guess what? I will not be happy......................I'm not happy and I won't be happy..........................so - again - it is a stalemate.
So here is my strategy. I have decided to be very nice. Too nice. I just need to be a "delightful" person (to use a term she used about our conversations last week.................) DELIGHTFUL. Just pretend that I am on prozac and there is nothing that can set me off. Smile sweetly. Go about my business. Why? Because as long as she sees me as stable, she will be more apt to sell the business or make my life bearable. If I start to argue my point and dig in my heels with resolve, she'll counter that with her stubbornness and I will get no where. So while we are in this period of time, I choose to be a yes person and wait it out for awhile................and pray a lot!
-
hey kelly,
that is the way to deal with an N 8) you've been doing your research, I see.
I hope this small amount of suffering, giving the N what they want, pays off for you.
hugs,
p bean
p.s. Your prozac comment reminding me of a funny joke: In the 60's people took LSD to feel weird. Now we take Prozac to feel normal. :P
-
Hi Kelly,
Here's to your inner delightfulness.
(I understand. When codependency meets hard survival questions, sometimes perfect independence takes a while. Right now, you're certainly incubating it, so don't beat yourself up for halfway measures. They're better than no action at all, and you've been really tackling this.)
Hops
-
DELIGHTFUL!! Just give me a lobotomy and I will be delightful for the rest of my life. But you know, sometimes I think I am psycho because I really have a plan - this devious plan to make things happen without conflict. I cannot win by fighting so I will just do what I need to do to get what I want.........................still doing my side business...........hoping to get it REALLY going this fall, because when nmom doesn't expect it, I'll be making enough money to walk in and say goodbye!!
-
Here's to sending tons of customers your way!!!!!!
-
thanks!!!!! I need them so send some positive vibes my way (prayers if you believe in a higher power)
From all of you!! Prayers and good wishes that lead to tons of new customers - and away I go!!!!!!!!!!!
-
this devious plan to make things happen without conflict. I cannot win by fighting so I will just do what I need to do to get what I want.........................still doing my side business...........hoping to get it REALLY going this fall, because when nmom doesn't expect it, I'll be making enough money to walk in and say goodbye!!
Way to go Kelly!!
Prayers and good wishes that lead to tons of new customers - and away I go!!!!!!!!!!!
You got mine - every day. I pray for customers and success. Lots of success - release and distance from Nmom. Your release helps release us all. - GS
-
Thanks for your prayers.........................and boundaries??? I have a question. So you know we hired my aunt. Well my nmom wants her to work every other weekend and aunt cried and told us she felt like the sacrificial lamb because she had to do it and no one else on the management team do...................so I reminded nmom that when we first bought the business I worked EVERY Saturday night and had three little kids at home. I was divorced and the 10 year old watched all of them..............so I am so upset and the I decided that I just need to leave it alone...........why am I so upset about this. If aunt wants to manipulate the situation, why should I get involved? I'll just be labelled the bad guy some how!!
Send me those clients. Send me those clients!!
-
Hi Kelly,
I don't know how to put this. I think the direction you are going is great and All Good. Once you can be independent you will feel such a rush of energy and light!
But. You have to do it for the right reasons, with the right karma. If you are embarking on your freedom with even a whiff of the idea that you will Show Them, or Make Her Pay, or Let Her Fall Flat or Her Face, then it will compromise your success and the wonderful benefit you and your lovely little family will achieve. Your new life has to be clean of the muck you are rising from.
Am I making any sense?
Plucky
-
Plucky: Thanks for the advice. I have been upset because my aunt doesn't want to work weekends and I have gotten so bent out of shape because of it, and then I realize - life is too short. Why, oh, why does that bother me? Do I think she needs to be punished as I feel I have been??? You are right. My motivation should be to individuate from my nmom, not take her down and trash her. After all, I truly believe she is not a malignant narcissist - I believe she is just extremely self-absorbed, self-obsessed, and wants what SHE wants when SHE wants it. I don't think her intent is to hurt me or anyone else. And in an earlier thread someone said that my nmom doesn't love my kids. They are just easy to manipulate, etc. Well, not true, I don't think. What I think is she realizes (but will never admit) that she sucked as a mother so she is being a much better grandmother. My kids for the most part like and love her (although occasionally they will talk of the guilt that she throws their way - that is her MO, to make you feel guilty if you do not make the same decisions as SHE would make..............funny thing is - what are we supposed to do? Read her mind? But that's another story...........)
So, Plucky, I will keep giving it up to my higher power and allow my freedom to come without costing my nmom and angst!
-
hi again kelly,
boy do our N Moms sound alike! You're doing fine. Feelings of revenge are normal. Problem is, if you start to actually follow through on them. like plucky said, they distract us from the main goal which is to GET THE HECK OUT!
I know that's what you really want (but it's great to fantasize about revenge too - my T says it's even perfectly normal for those of us who've been abused, go figure!) 8)
OK, I'm sending a prayer your way too..
hugs,
p bean
-
Thanks so much, PB...................but problem is, I kind of obsess................I get to thinking and my mind goes down a path. I grit my teeth and think of all the horrible things that could happen to her to put her in her place. But then I think, it is not my responsibility to take her down. What comes around goes around and eventually she will either be completely out of it (with Alzheimer's) or she'll mellow. Maybe she'll realize she just can't do it anymore and back off. But I tell you, (and how stupid of me for not thinking of this sooner...) if I just be nice, she is more apt to do what I want!! DU+H
-
OK Kellydckm
Stop wasting your thoughts on your mom and aunt and start putting you thoughts on images of customers flowing into you business. Turn your thoughts around. As one of my favorites, Wayne Dyer, writes, "Don't focus your attention on what is missing (a supportive work relationship with mother) but shift to what you absolutely intend to manifest and attract into your life - with no doubts, no waffling and no explaining!"
You can do it. Kelly - let your mom and aunt deal with their own stuff. Keep you thoughts and imagination focused on what you are doing and the business you are building. Keep asking for support and encouragement here. - GS
-
I just have a quick suggestion...
I have read many times on this group in posts, where people talk about how their mind wanders or how they obsess or can't stop thinking about things...it might be helpful to get on meds with the help of a therapist. It helped me get my brain quieted and re-trained to be more discerning about what I ponder on.
~Laura
-
yes, that is a great suggestion Laura.
My anxiety meds helped me stop obsessing about my family. not only did I want revenge, but I wanted for them to just understand me, finally. Why did I think they are capable when my whole life I've been the odd one out? So I agree, meds can help us to overcome this, and focus our thoughts back on more calming/centering/productive things. But, I've noticed they don't eliminate my obsessing altogether. The thing that has helped me is to talk to my T and get all the garbage out. Just telling her how I used to wish my mother would die in a car accident, all the time, when I was a child, was hugely relieving to me. I think I'd been carrying that guilt around for so long, and just didn't know what to do with it. To tell a mental health care professional this, and not have her jump up and say "WELL, LET'S GO GET THE STRAIGHT JACKET THEN, CAUSE IT'S OBVIOUS YOU'RE DEMENTED BEAN" (ha ha, I know...but hey, there's a part of me that still fears people would actually do this - it's my projection/transference of my Mom onto them)...let's just say, this does wonders to your mental health. When you start to get all this out, the guilt lessens, the revenge thinking lessens, the fear, anger, sadness, and the shame lessen. It's going to be OK kelly, this is a process and you're in control, even if it feels like you're not. Just remember that. This is all "normal" responses to abnormal parenting.
love,
bean
-
Yes PB
I agree about not only using meds but of course, therapy. I just wanted it to come from you, as I have not seen a therapist in years, so it would seem I was condemning others and trying to portray myself as perfect...that was not my intention at all.
I'm just saying that, every time I hear someone talking about how they can't seem to stop all the "busy" or "tormenting" thoughts, I want to come through the screen, march them over to the nearest clinic, and get them on some meds, so they can have their minds settled enough to take "one thing at a time" and make some healthier decisions.
Because I've been there, because I've had such obsessive thoughts in my mind, that I could not stop with any amount of hoping or praying, or pleading, until I went on meds that straightened out my thought patterns via the neurotransmitter chemicals, I could NOT make any sort of reasonable decisions to "stop the insanity." It is true. I know how that feels, like something else is controlling you and you are helpless to stop it, so you go along for the ride, always wishing you could end the cycle.
Please, listen to me fellow-strugglers...meds DO work! At least go to your therapist and agree to TRY something. Give yourself a break and a chance, and get on a med till your thoughts belong to God's control and yours again. It is well worth it! :)
~Laura
-
Mega dittos on the meds question.
When I finally asked for some, I remember saying to my doctor, "I've been suffering panic attacks for 15 years now and I am tired of being a hero." I was so inculcated with "tough it out" and "don't be dependent on anything" that I genuinely didn't recognize the common sense of using Rx as needed.
Hops
-
Hops and Laura and PB: Not that I am against meds but hear me out. After my divorce I was just so angry and upset and obsessing and all the things that go along with dysfunction, etc. So the doc prescribed prozac. It helped take the edge off but I became somewhat of a zombie. I didn't have any highs or lows - I just kind of "was." Also (and I hate to say this - kind of embarrassing) but it made sex less than spectacular.................we'll leave it at that. And you see all these commercials on tv which have the disclaimers at the end...."may cause headaches, heart palpatations and may cause sexual dysfunction in some people.........................."
So, obsess? Maybe a little but not to the point where I think I need meds right now. I am taking vitamins and vitamin D and iron and 5-HTP (the pharmacists said my doc was having me use the 5-HTP as a natural alternative to prozac......he said it was a natural way to help fight depression.) But right now I am bound and determined to get out and grow.......I'm not wallowing in bed....
-
I understand kelly. Just putting it out there as an option.
Also, as a side note, I'm thoroughly convinced that many of my successful coworkers must be on Meds. I've heard way too many references to "happy pills." They're just way too calm at times. 8)
So don't be embarrassed. It's not a weakness to ask for help; it's a sign you're very strong indeed. Sounds like you're being proactive, and that's what's important. Way to go!
-
I can't tell you what a difference my AD has made in my life. Part of my problem was thyroid disease, but a part, I believe is inherent depression. I still have ups and downs, but I don't despair anymore (usually) and I don't have anxiety attacks (I felt like I had to kep running, running or something would catch me).
I don't think everyone needs meds, but there are definitely those of us who do!!!!
Love, Beth
-
I understand, Kelly, esp. about the vanishing libido. Mine went buh-bye too...but in this current transition and stressful time (and I'm single), I don't care. I'm just grateful for the help (esp. with my back pain, which is what's been amazing about Cymbalta).
I think you know yourself better than anyone else can, and it all depends on your tolerance for your upset thoughts. You do sound very strong and determined!
Hops
-
Kelly,
I can relate to the "no hi's no low's, just "am" part of meds...that was how it was for me on Topamax too, which is why I got off it after 9 months.
I am not advocating a LIFETIME of taking meds. I'm saying that if you are obsessing and being pessimistic about things in everyday life, meds can help calm down your mind and even repair the faulty neurotransmitters, until you are able to think in a better, healthier, more-balanced way. If the natural things work, hey, I'm all for it! I sold herbs, tea tree oil, super blue-green algae and pycnogenol for years and I still SWEAR BY ANTIOXIDANTS!
~Laura
-
Kelly,
I took Lexapro (and a couple of others that didn't work) to help with my obsessing thoughts during joint therapy and after my ex left. I, too, had sexual dysfunction issues and since I am on tape for a program I did for a friend on depression saying it, I guess I can say it here too. I became inorgasmic. It didn't reduce my libido, but I could not achieve orgasm. It mattered while we were in therapy together, obviously didn't matter after he left, so I was able to stay on them for the next 6 months until I thought I could manage without them. It really does help with the obsessing, but there are trade-offs. You could try discussing it with your Ob-Gyn and see if there are any ways to help with that.
Brigid
-
For me, I have noticed this. The drive isn't initially there in me. But once I'm "jump started" it's all good. :wink: Since my b/f is on the same meds as me, it seems to work out OK. We may not think about sex as often as other couples, but then I feel it actually gives us an opportunity to just be together and talk; we do spend lots of quality time together, mostly doing projects together. It's kind of nice that he doesn't only see me as a "partner" this way. Without those urges a lot of times, we still have intimacy just its not quite so physical, which is nice too. While I probably missed it, especially initially as it felt like a dramatic change, it was one of the things that also felt calming to not be so worried about (getting it) too.
hugs,
p bean
-
Well, guys this is it. I'm not depressed. So I don't need meds. And that's one thing h and I have going for us is sex!! So don't want to be "inorgasmic!!" That's probably the glue that keeps us together through his stupid drinking.......................ranting and raving.....RIDS....
I watched the tail end of Prozac Nation last night and the last thing Christina Ricci said was something like ........"Well, I came out of it slowly just like I went into it slowly.....................but now I'm back........" I seriously think depression comes in many forms for me. Lack of sunlight. (vitamin d deficiency) lack of iron - iron poor blood - and stress that puts me over the edge - plus periomenopausal symptoms which are all around me at almost age 47 (in six days!!!) So I'll take my vitamins, take a walk, get plenty of sunshine and try to get over the PMS hump..........work my business...............look for other jobs to get away from nmom.....................and continue to "let go and let God!!!!!"
-
Kelly: Well, guys this is it. I'm not depressed. So I don't need meds.
Wow, I almost wanted to add on "I'm in denial" to the end of this, but, since I don't know you personally, that isn't fair.
Again I will say, there is nothing at all wrong with meds, period. Maybe it's not YOU who has the problem; so then, if you are staying with an alcoholic that will not change, that would put you in a position of enabler according to statistics...either position is not healthy to be in.
I have heard of sunlight working for depression, but then again, maybe depression isn't your issue either. I'm not a doctor, so I'm only giving views based on what I'm reading here. I do pray you find your answers though.
-
It's nice to hear from you, Laura!!!!
Love, Beth
-
I didn't think I was depressed/anxious either. Til I got on the meds and stayed on them long enough to notice the change. :wink:
I still consider that Nurse Practitioner who suggested them - as I remember sitting there and crying in her office after going there for something like a bruised thumb - my savior. She was truly an angel. She debunked all the myths for me in a single 5 minute appt. I told her "I just need to exercise more...." she said: honey, depression and anxiety are hereditary, you can't fix this with exercise!
pb
-
depression and anxiety are hereditary,
like, genetic? Not proven. Myth.
Exercise alone can help some people enormously.
Just another - ahem - opinion! But there are facts too.
We tend to believe what we want to believe and if that helps us, fine.
If you want another opinion, or you want the facts as they are currently known, you've got to find them yourself and not rely on any one person, i think. It's never-ending of course :?
-
Laura: When I read your post last night I wanted to be defensive but I thought I might ponder it over night and respond today. Denial? Maybe about some things. But at this point in my life I am on a path towards liberation. I am making choices to better myself and am pretty optimistic. If I was having a lot of anxiety, feelings of impending doom, and depression, then I would go back on meds. But while I am feeling really good about where I am going, I don't need the meds.
Enabler? Well, I am trying not to play the role of enabler. I am going to al-anon and am throwing all h's crap back at him. I am trying to take care of ME - not him. Should I leave him? Yes. If he continues down this path but anyone who has ever had a marriage that wasn't perfect and even if they decided TO divorce, they would attest that the process take time. It's not just a moment, it's a process.
I'm thankful I am not depressed. I have lived a lot of days laying in my bed, crying, feeling helpless (a lot of that had to do with feeling trapped in a never ending episode with my nmom.........................right now I am clawing my way out and this board has helped me A LOT!!)
-
Good for you Kellydckm!
Good for you.
-
Hey Kel,
If you believe you are doing well and making healthy choices, that is all that matters. I love hearing that people are taking care of themselves! Kudos!
~Laura
-
hey Portia,
Feeling confrontational? 8)
Who cares what the facts are, she helped me either way. Facts are irrelevant, especially when they're so subjective (like I believe medicine is). :P IMHO
bean
-
Hi bean
I read you here:
I still consider that Nurse Practitioner who suggested them - as I remember sitting there and crying in her office after going there for something like a bruised thumb - my savior. She was truly an angel. She debunked all the myths for me in a single 5 minute appt. I told her "I just need to exercise more...." she said: honey, depression and anxiety are hereditary, you can't fix this with exercise!
And wondered if you’d made a angel out of a human being? (I also think she was talking nonsense and wanted to put an alternative view because nonsense presented as fact can be downright dangerous, as the alt-med people are proving). And I said:
We tend to believe what we want to believe and if that helps us, fine.
No problems with that. But after a while I think (and you don’t have to agree with me!) it’s a good idea to re-examine our previous opinions and update them with new stuff. In other words, if it works fine, but trust your own judgement and critical thinking above everyone else, including me and the angel.
Blimey Bean, if facts are irrelevant in medicine, try cutting your arm off and not bleeding to death? Facts I think can be quite useful!
Confrontational? Or trying to get you to think for yourself? If that’s confrontational, heck, why not eh? Confronting things can be positive I think. Heck, you know I’m rooting for you. I hope you know that. Take care.
-
Well, she's not exactly an angel...cause after that she stopped listening to me. I think its cause it is not in the Business's objective to actually listen to patients and dispel good medical advice, but to Make $$$$$$$$$$$........grrrr. dang it. So now I am searching for a new Family Practice Dr.
no surprise there.
So, I've got my feet firmly planted on the ground. But at the time, she was an Angel to me.
bean
-
Thanks for your reply on 'Work' Pb. I kinda liked that too. :)
I just wrote about 'being manipulative' and how we can't control how others perceive what we do which made sense to me here:
Well, she's not exactly an angel...cause after that she stopped listening to me.
(Sorry she did that Pb)
I think its cause it is not in the Business's objective to actually listen to patients and dispel good medical advice, but to Make $$$$$$$$$$$
exactly what i was thinking earlier with her comment to you (don't exercise! take these pills!)
However, how you perceived her comment:
But at the time, she was an Angel to me.
was helpful to you. Doesn't matter what her intention was, your perception said "this is going to help me" and so it worked for you, despite her intentions. Great!
Just realised I'm using your reply to back up my previous post on Jac's thread. Hope you don't mind!
I hope your search for a new family practice Dr goes well. The more information you have, I guess the better equipped you are. 8)
-
Hey - I kind of forgot this thread but something prompted me to reread the last couple and it made me think of the Doc I drive 45 minutes to see. You see, I had tried Prozac because I was just so depressed. I was in my early 40s and started the perimenopausal stuff...............I had so many highs and lows, I thought I might be bipolar. Well someone suggested this doc out in the boonies who was making quite a stir with bioidentical hormones. So I went to see her and she was MY angel....................not only did she test my blood and found that I was anemic, had low vitamin d levels, a thyroid condition, I had gained weight (still too heavy.....) pre=diabetic, etc. Well, she put me on progesterone, testosterone, and some others. Vitamins. Cod liver oil. But she KNEW what I was going through. It was almost like she was prophetic. She would close her eyes and tell me things about me that no one would know. I asked her if she was talking with my mother...............she said no, she just had these feelings...................
So meds?? Not prozac. Yes, all the other things trying to get me on some kind of even kiel................
-
Hi PP,
I think some people are temporary angels.
Sometimes our need to receive meets another's need to give and the fit is just right.
Then they, or we, default to less angelic and it can be startling. All goes to the "be here now" thing, and the "have no expectations" thing, neither of which I'll ever fully master...
But I think it says something about the angel in YOU that you see her as you do, despite her pullback.
That's very impressive to me. Meaning is where you make it, and you make good meaning, PP!
Hops
-
Kelly
not only did she test my blood and found that I was anemic, had low vitamin d levels, a thyroid condition, I had gained weight (still too heavy.....) pre=diabetic, etc. Well, she put me on progesterone, testosterone, and some others. Vitamins. Cod liver oil. But she KNEW what I was going through.
Wow 8) I like hearing success stories. Another example of something ‘working for you’ and if it works, I don’t care how it works! Interesting too Kelly: I’m nearly 45 and I take cod liver oil, extra iron and multi-vits when I feel I need them. Some Q10 co-enzyme sometimes for an energy boost (but it’s expensive). And when I feel like a good dose of acid, I take it (vinegar form). I don’t think I need testosterone though. A Chinese medicine doctor once told me I have too much yang running through my veins :? that probably explains a lot :)
-
hiya kel,
that is a very good point you bring up. A lot of our "feelings" can be due to hormonal imbalances. Speaking of...I went to my new doc again yesterday, and she confirmed my thyroid is low (I have mild hypo-thyroidism). So, I'm back on the thyroid medication the other "angel" also put me on.
Hopefully it will help me feel less tired. Another advantage is it revs up my metabolism so I'm less likely to gain weight unnecessarily. She said it may help with the depression/anxiety too.
We'll see.
hugs,
bean
-
Well, don't get your hopes up. I thought the minute I got on thyroid meds my weight would start going down - NOT. In fact, it keeps inching up. I just can't seem to keep the sugar out of my mouth and it lands right on my midsection. That insulin resistant thing (pre diabetes.....) My body cannot metabolize sugar and yet I keep shoving into my mouth!!!!
-
Boy do I understand that craving, Kelly.
I had hoped to talk about that a lot on the Food Issues thread...
I might go "heave it up"...(not the sugar, the thread!)
If sugar were injectable... :?
Hops
-
(((((((((((kelly))))))))))))) (((((((((((((((hops)))))))))))))))))))
I know how hard it is to have these cravings..want to be that perfect size 6, but your genes keep telling you "Sorry, that's not in your Plan"
grrrrrrrrrrrr