Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: WRITE on September 02, 2006, 11:37:13 PM
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before he breaks your heart
by
Steven Carter,Julia Sokol
I've had a look at this, not closely yet, it's really interesting especially the idea a man will give off tons of signals that he's interested, loving, committed etc and then when you respond he can't cope but instead of telling you 'no thanks' he can't even make that decision and will disappear or trash you and the relationship.
The book says there's a model of tolerating the behaviours which keep him interested- he wants you at an emotional distance but close on his terms in a way he can withdraw any time it gets too much for him.
He'll do that by making excuses, stopping calling or making arrangements.
Then when he misses you or feels lonely he'll reach out again, only to withdraw as soon as you're ready to make an emotional connection.
I only skimmed through, but when I closed it I already thought these things:
1) if someone's ambivalent or unwilling to define the time you spend together after a few 'dates' best to stop seeing them; they don't know what they want or cannot communicate it.
2) trust what the first couple of dates throw up when he's off-guard and being charming and answering questions openly. My second date with my friend I remember him joking about being afraid of commitment. As we have got closer he has grown less affectionate not more.
3) trust your instincts- this is harder for me because I tend to tune out 'I feel hurt/ uncomfortable' way beyond what other people would tolerate. And I'm still working through some of my own trust issues and barriers to intimacy.
4) if you're getting mixed messages it's not about you. Back off- the other person can approach you again when they work themselves out.
I had a lovely evening with a guy, we were out in a group and went for a walk and then wrote to each other for a few days until one day he wrote he didn't have time, he was just starting a masters etc. I sent him a light-hearted reply saying good luck and ignored him and now we're friends. There is an attraction there- I do trust my senses on that- but if he's not interested in pursuing it I'm not interested in trying to get his attention.
I said this somewhere else- I only want someone who really wants to be with me; and I only want someone who wants to build a good relationship with me.
I'm prepared to wait- but not spend my time in a relationship with someone whilst they decide!
Thank goodness Hop recommended that Judith Sills book, because I would have been head over heels in love by now and so hung up on the outcome of making him 'the one' I'd be oblivious to how he or I were truly feeling.
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my experience dating close to 50? guys has been - when they stopped being interested, it was usually cause they had someone else in mind (even if it happened to be the 20 yr old working at Starbucks they could never actually date, or some porn star dream of theirs - oh God this is the worst! In other words, someone was more interesting to them than me, and they prefered to have that person in the forefront of their mind, not me.
Moral: thank your lucky stars they gave you the sign before you moved in with them!!!
(unfortunately, spoken from experience of living with a commitment-intamacy-a-phobic, and dating plenty others). bleh.
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In other words, someone was more interesting to them than me, and they preferred to have that person in the forefront of their mind, not me.
yes, that's what I would usually think too, oh he met/likes someone else.
I think my friend has issues with the fact I'm not divorced yet- which is fair enough. But why can't he just say that!
Have you found over time you can identify these commitment-phobes earlier?
I don't like to judge too much, but I did think about this guy anyone who gets to age 34 without being married or in a live-in relationship is probably not in one for a reason- which could be from doesn't want one to can't do one.
I guess all will become clear over time...
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hi write,
you might be onto something there. A guy who's never been in a committed relationship..probably cannot commit for whatever reason. Yes, unfortunately, I think so in most cases (there could be some exceptions out there--some very unlucky souls, but what is the statistical probability?).
I remember dating a really nice guy for a short time, who was proud of the fact that he'd been in 3 committed relationships (married once, and two serious live-in girlfriends) and thus kind of Knew the Ropes when it came to women's needs (including communication and emotional). I really appreciated this about him, he was very sensitive to my needs, probably because he had had the experience, like he said. Unfortunately, he ended up being a heavy drinker and had strong attachments for an ex. :( Bad timing for both of us. I met someone else who had the above minus the drinking and ex in the meantime.
It is weird how dating works. Sometimes you meet someone who may be perfect for you..but happens to be going through a bad period in their life, for whatever reason. You can always put him "on hold" in your mind anyway. I wouldn't wait by the phone or anything, but if he happened to call you up in say a few months or years..and said something like "I was going through a very tough period back when we dated before, and I realized I may have let a wonderful person slip through the cracks..do you want to meet for coffee?" I mean, love is a committment to another person, which means its partially a choice both parties get to make. So, if someone is having issues with the choice, they're having issues with the committment, not necessarily with You. Right?
pb
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well there's always that romantic movie notion of 'waiting for the right one' but the truth is someone has probably met several suitable potential matches by their thirties ( including women more compatible and prettier then me :) ) so it's best to have eyes wide open when a seemingly wonderful guy is unattached.
It's probably not because he's been waiting for a middle-aged undivorcee to rock his world...and if it was I think he'd be saying so not acting strangely!
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Hi Write,
SO glad you got the book.
Hope you'll read it through.
The specifics were what helped me so much.
Also the author's compassion for both the "phobe" and the women who can be so confused and hurt by the ping-pong behavior. I think it's GREAT that you remembered what he said about fearing commitment on the 2nd date.
One thing I learned...very belatedly...that in EVERY SINGLE ONE of the bad, heartbreaking relationships I wound up in (in my mad search for as many Nmen as I could collect :?) ... EVERY SINGLE time they had given me signals on our VERY FIRST OR SECOND DATE that in hindsight were very very clear clues to their character.
I realize now that my intuition works just fine! What has to change before I date safely is for me to develop a complete and serious commitment to honoring my own intuition. To really pay attention to my "stray" thoughts and observations about a person and then make a decision and act on it without shame. Examples:
--D)first date with the last N (he spent the entire time obsessed with getting me to admire his art, and later that evening, was awash in a magical merging-fusion fantasy)
--C) another: talked about cars the entire evening and asked not one question about me
--B) another: drank too much
--A) another: told stories that seemed just a little "off"
Reality:
D) hugely N artist who used me like a gallery assistant, PR arm-candy companion, and played romantic for a few months...and after a year suddenly gave me I-don't-want-a-real-relationship speech
C) controlling and obsessed with stuff
B) very alcoholic
A) pathological liar (married that one. Ow.)
So trust your guts. Ultimately, this book helped me affirm my own capacity to observe, and obseve accurately. It's not a courtroom, they're not "guilty" until proven worthy...but a date IS an opportunity to enjoy an encounter with a new person and also express full confidence in your intuitions about them. Including "Thanks, but I've decided this isn't a fit for me. I wish you well."
Hops
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confused and hurt by the ping-pong behavior
well here we are and I am already a little confused and hurt by his behaviour.
If he said to me 'I don't want to get involved until you're divorced' I would know where I stand. I felt him take a huge step back because he didn't realise I wasn't, and I think that's healthy- but only if he can talk to me too!
He's just run away then when I see him he's gazing at me and I am unsure what he is thinking. Maybe it's just one of those strong attractions where the timing is off and it's just not meant to be.
in my mad search for as many Nmen as I could collect ) ... EVERY SINGLE time they had given me signals on our VERY FIRST OR SECOND DATE that in hindsight were very very clear clues to their character.
:D
remember that guy I dated who told me he could never be faithful to anyone...I mentioned it to a lady who said 'well listen to him- and believe him!' She dumped her husband after his third affair where he produced another child...his excuse was 'you knew what I was like when you married me...'
It's not a courtroom, they're not "guilty" until proven worthy
well this is the other side too, I know because I've been hurt I am not so spontaneous and willing to jump in, and I don't want to come across angry and critical whilst I am evaluating things. I'm not at all bitter- but I am still healing.
"Thanks, but I've decided this isn't a fit for me. I wish you well."
nice way to end it.
You think I'll be able to do it- you've seen how I've been with my ex ( smile )
THANK YOU!
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ps
I was looking for songs for my groups and this made me really laugh, the title but also the content:
Frank Sinatra - A Fine Romance Lyrics
A fine romance, with no kisses
A fine romance, my friend this is
We should be like a couple of hot tomatoes
But you're as cold as yesterday's mashed potatoes
A fine romance, you won't nestle
A fine romance, you won't wrestle
I might as well play bridge
With my old maid aunt
I haven't got a chance
This is a fine romance
A fine romance, my good fellow
You take romance, I'll take jello
You're calmer than the seals
In the arctic ocean
At least they flap their fins
To express emotion
A fine romance with no quarrels
With no insults and all morals
I've never mussed the crease
In your blue serge pants
I never get the chance
This is a fine romance
!
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Briliant lyrics Write. :lol: I love Frank! What a crooooooner.
I do believe you can do it, and I believe you can do it soon and spare yourself WORSE hurt and confusion. If you do it now (doesn't have to be dramatic, just a calm conversation in a public place) you don't have to have anger build up. You can just endure some private disappointment for a little while. (Write, with years of your Ex as comparison, a week or so thinking oh-well, wasn't-meant-to-be, siggghh...is that okay? Better than okay, to truly not set yourself up for that horrible yearning, unreciprocated longing, one-way readiness?)
(One thing I got from the book is that men who are truly commitment phobic are experiencing a literal phobia--engulfing them in panic. It doesn't excuse dishonesty or manipulation, but in a lot of cases it's not that...they honestly have no idea why they're acting so inconsistent. So I can forgive but I still make fast tracks! Because it's not going to change. Especially in a never-committed 35 y/o, I think...)
Don't worry much about what HE is thinking.
What matters is what YOU are thinking, and how YOU are evaulating what YOU are ready for.(Or not.)
Might be a little more time on your own would be good, so you don't do a rebound, ey?
luck...
Hops
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What matters is what YOU are thinking, and how YOU are evaulating what YOU are ready for.(Or not.)
Might be a little more time on your own would be good, so you don't do a rebound, ey?
you are right, and of course the rebound thing can be turned around too- who would want to jump into a serious relationship with someone who is still dealing with her ex, not yet even divorced, still healing...
8)
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You've got your brains in, Write, that's for sure.
I love what your friend said about the man who talked about being unfaithful: "Believe him!"
My old M.O. would've been (well, not about fidelity, but about a red-ink list of other things):
ambivalence: poor dear, he's scared, so I'll be extra extra reassuring, show him how rewarding I'd be
inconsiderateness: he just hasn't learned how wonderful it can be to be considerate, I'll show him how
abusive: this must be his buried pain from his terrible mother/childhood/etc., I'll show him kindness
manipulative: this is one of his survival mechanisms and if I am just smart enough, I'll outthink him
indifferent: he's trying to disguise his deep-down yearning and vulnerability so I'll be extra attentive
coldness: I just need to be soooooo warm and giving, even more than before, that will help him thaw
cruelty: this is a test of how good I can be, that I can even love and forgive when he's hurt me so
lying: I know he's so insecure, and this has been his way of coping. I'll show him how to trust
Horrible to see it written out, but these were my very very good reasons for finally not rushing out to find another relationship when the last one ended. I know that I'm turned off inside now, when I detect these things...but time will tell if I find another partner. Meanwhile, I'm more at peace.
Hops
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ambivalence: poor dear, he's scared, so I'll be extra extra reassuring, show him how rewarding I'd be
inconsiderateness: he just hasn't learned how wonderful it can be to be considerate, I'll show him how
abusive: this must be his buried pain from his terrible mother/childhood/etc., I'll show him kindness
manipulative: this is one of his survival mechanisms and if I am just smart enough, I'll outthink him
indifferent: he's trying to disguise his deep-down yearning and vulnerability so I'll be extra attentive
coldness: I just need to be SO warm and giving, even more than before, that will help him thaw
cruelty: this is a test of how good I can be, that I can even love and forgive when he's hurt me so
lying: I know he's so insecure, and this has been his way of coping. I'll show him how to trust
I don't think this is much different than many of us here- and people with the traits home in further as we don't repulse them and we busy ourselves making them comfortable.
These were all traits I experienced early in childhood along with another- immaturity ( to which I responded by becoming the grown-up little girl taking care of everyone and suggesting what they should do )
time will tell if I find another partner. Meanwhile, I'm more at peace.
I would love another partner, someone who I can build a good relationship with. I've had no sexual partner most of my marriage, I'd love to develop that side of myself. I'd love to be able to trust someone and have fun with them.
But peace is more difficult, I'm beginnig to wonder if I cannot acheive peace when my ex sabotages my happiness as often as he can, doesn't seem to be able to help himself.
I'm starting to think about a physical move away from him, I can't see my way through the logistics yet, and much of his poison is via the telephone anyway, but the happier I am the worse his attitude and behaviour is. If he can't see me maybe he'll feel better.
He seemed like he was doing so well, but he's had a typical about-turn ( the moment he has to sit with or deal with any difficult emotions he goes into the old mode of- it's your responsibility )
I had a wonderful brunch today with a nice guy I know who heard it was my birthday recently and wanted to take me out. I didn't mention it to ex but he obviously picked up on something- first he didn't follow through on the childcare arrangements but my friends took care of that. Then he called during my drive back and said there wasn't enough time to do our family afternoon ( there was 4 hours- plenty enough ) Then he called in moped around a bit, said very little except he is really miserable and left without saying 'bye or anything.
He also called me during dinner with friends last night and hung up, and then when I was driving home to say he was worried about my safety being out at night etc. I felt he was playing on my anxiety about my friend etc more than actually concerned.
I can't believe he keeps saying he cares about me when everytime I smile or look happy or well he does his utmost to make me miserable, and keeps attacking me because apparently I made him miserable! He hates me because he isn't happy; nothing I have ever done in over 20 years made him happy, he's blind to that though.
This evening I feel physically sick. I was retching when he first got here.
I have such tension in my neck and shoulder it really hurts, and I put myself to bed and felt better
only to have him drop in, wake me up, act out a bit and leave! Then I felt sick again; it's evaporating as I type so I know it's pscho-somatic.
Sorry for whining, I am just exhausted with it all.
Typical public holiday for him- maybe it's called Labour Day because he's such hard work!
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I just went downstairs with a heavy heart and guess what- the first hummingbird was in my garden. They are late this year, I think their patterns were altered a bit by the hurricanes last year. I wondered if they'd come at all but just when I thought nothing would lift my spirits today, the hummingbird did.
Thank you G_d!
I'll move one of my chairs near to the window and enjoy an acrobatic display for the rest of summer. Two summers ago some nested and we had dozens.
~W
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I'm starting to think about a physical move away from him,
This is an incredibly healing thought thing...it may produce anxiety, but wow, was it great to read. Don't pressure yourself. Trust yourself. You're doing FINE. This is new territory and your boots are broken in yet and you've got some nasty blisters but you are GOING to get to the top of this mountain and see a beautiful, peaceful view.
the happier I am the worse his attitude and behaviour is.
This would be the unchangeable trait of an N-ex. The incurable, immovable, true-to-his-nature trait. Yep.
If he can't see me maybe he'll feel better.
If he can't see you maybe YOU will feel better. And your son will do just fine. He's a smart boy.
You live in a large city, right? I wonder if you could think about simply moving to the far other side?
hugs, and no pressure (new thoughts like that do rattle the applecart, I know)...
Hops
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Dear Write,
One of the few true statements that ever proceeded from the mouth of N-ex =
No one can give you what you refuse to take.
Love,
Hope
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No one can give you what you refuse to take.
if onloy that were true...we have a child together remember.
On the scale of things I know lots of the other parents here have it many times worse than I do.
:(
I wonder if you could think about simply moving to the far other side?
I think if I have to move because he won't control his behaviour or he gets worse, I'll pick another city or as you say go right across town.
The truth is he gets to me far worse when he sabotages our son, and one of the reasons he's upset right now is I've had a concerted effort of stopping that.
He gets in a real rage when he thinks I am controlling him in any way, plus I have a social life and he is angry about that too.
It won't be long before he'll be messing with the childcare arrangements and financial arrangements.
I have no doubt he won't stop until he either meets a new partner- in which case I will never see him at all ( his words! ) or he precipitates another trauma in one of us.
I'm mentally really well, it's unbelievable really how strong given everything that's happening and I'm working really hard too. Maybe he expected me to crack up with the first pressure.
Maybe he's cracking up.
He says he's having strange thoughts and feelings and not sleeping.
He says I don't care and I never have.
I AM assertive with him CH, but it's just part of his pernicious nature to say and do things to hurt me. I have no doubt that however else he changes he'll never stop doign that to me, the pattern is too ingrained, and nothing I have ever done or said has made any difference over time.
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Dear Write,
Having a child together does not have to mean that he gets to call you whenever he wants or show up at your door whenever the notion strikes him, does it? If he is doing most of his damage over the telephone, then perhaps he needs to be put on a regular, strictly enforced phoning schedule with the purpose of those calls being to interact with his son... not you. ??? maybe?
Love,
Hope
on edit: ((((((((Write)))))))) where there is a will, there is a way. This comes from my heart full of awareness of the devastation N brings upon a spirit when he's not strictly maintained by a rigid code of conduct which does not give an inch upon his whims.
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Write-
I'm sorry about what you are going through. I love your spirit and have admired your words in so many of your posts. My heart is with you and I am sending powerful thoughts of encouragement your way.
Yours - GS
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Our relationship unfortunately hasn't been that way CH.
If I don't take the dropping in and the calls then I will be punished- either via my son or some practical consequences.
I do feel I sort-of know what I'm doing and it's the best way I know how, I was just venting about it earlier. Sorry if I was whiny :(
I know all divorces get emotional, but only people who've been in N marriages know what it's like to divorce a guy whose emotional being is somehow built upon you....and he sees all kinds of barbs and insults which aren't there so attacks you....and the ensuing aftermath where he seems to walk away unscathed and everyone else is traumatised.
At the moment he's in the worst pain ever. And I'll get to see it switch off in a day or two too.
The only thing I can do right now is try not to let it undo me when I am feeling vulnerable etc.
I have no doubt now- he hates me, he doesn't really believe I have any right to a happy existence, maybe any existence, unless it's for him.
I guess eventually all my feelings for him will go, like my father, and I will only interact at a huge distance, but I feel if I do that now- we'll be in court, fighting over custody/ money and I'll still have to deal with him just the same after.
I just keep telling myself, he doesn't care about you, to him it's not about you, and waiting for something else to catch his attention- which it always does.
His emotions switch on and off.
And maybe if they're not he's in some kind of change phase? I don't know. He is supposed to see the psych this week. Maybe she'll have him commited :) Ok, that was mean....can I say 'he's making me have mean thoughts' CH? :) "Cos he is!
I'll send him a message in a bit, hoping he is feeling better.
And pray for him whilst I walk the dog.
I'm going to fill in my Thankfulness Journal now- today's a day i really need to focus. I'm thankful for the lovely brunch gift, for the hummingbirds, for choir practice ( where I was able to go talk and be friendly to this guy and decide- I have to not let this spoil my enjoyment of this group ) For my friend there and a lady who offered to come sing at one of my groups. And despite crying all the way to the swimming pool when I arrived I had a nice chat and a lovely swim and it's loosened up my frozen shoulder.
Thanks GS, I feel the encouragement, thanks everyone. I'm sure I'll feel better tomorrow, like Scarlett:
tomorrow's another day!
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Maybe she'll have him commited
Doesn't sound a bit mean to me... only rational, reasonable, and likely the best case scenario!
Hugs, Write
Hope
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((((((((((((((((((((Write)))))))))))))))))))))))
Those little hummingbirds are so powerful. What a beautiful thing to see.
It's wonderful to hear you claim your strength in spite of the pressure he's putting on you.
(Do you really want to email him to see if he feels better? Doesn't that reinforce your "responsibility" for his wellbeing? But if it's a pattern you do because you know best how to handle him, how to keep a balance of some civility...I respect your choice. It's delicate coping, untangling from an N.)
To encourage you--one thing I remember from my studies about Nism is that although Ns do react with fury when they are rejected, once their anger passes (they always, always line up new sources of supply)...then they become INDIFFERENT to you. Really. So the scenario of him hounding you into the future is not really likely.
I think if you just hold steady and keep the steps moving, and celebrate your inner hummingbird every time he throws drama at you, the play will sputter to an end.
FREEDOM, Write.
Hugs,
Hops
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Do you really want to email him to see if he feels better? Doesn't that reinforce your "responsibility" for his wellbeing? But if it's a pattern you do because you know best how to handle him, how to keep a balance of some civility...I respect your choice. It's delicate coping, untangling from an N
yes it is delicate- I have lived with it for over twenty years and know exactly what will trigger my ex to behave badly, I can write the scripts these days.
I sent the email, and called him this morning, then we met for coffee this afternoon.
I was really glad I had emailled and called because during our conversation it came up again that I don't care about him and I was able to point it out as fresh examples that I do.
It's really difficult untangling all the misunderstandings between us, some going back years, but if he is committed to change I will support that- and told him this- but only at whatever level is safe and healthy for me too.
I feel he's crossed that boundary several times lately.
But today he's been back to the psych ( first appt he's ever made without any external prompting ) for some therapy and changed meds.
He made me smile, when I pointed out that I had been caring etc he said 'that email you could have written to anyone, nothing special about it, you're like that to anyone' and I pointed out he was special enough to have his own title in my life for many years...and that didn't make him feel any more loved either.
I pray a lot you know, and G_d directs much of this.
I'm not meant to stay in an abusive relationship, or to accept abuse, but I believe I am meant to love and be compassionate.
then they become INDIFFERENT to you. Really
He doesn't understand quite why I would though. He said you do know once I meet someone else I won't be interested in you any more...I said yes, so take that as evidence I'm caring anyway.
***
The hummingbirds are amazingly fragile, but so strong and resilient, and having such fun flitting about looking for sun and nectar. And though they disappear most of the year, they are a resurrection, returning with unfailing grace even though they may be running late ( 'circumstances beyond our control'! )
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I pray a lot you know, and G_d directs much of this.
I'm not meant to stay in an abusive relationship, or to accept abuse, but I believe I am meant to love and be compassionate.
then they become INDIFFERENT to you. Really
He doesn't understand quite why I would though. He said you do know once I meet someone else I won't be interested in you any more...I said yes, so take that as evidence I'm caring anyway.
Well, I needed to cry for days but couldn't till I read this. Someone with the regular flow of emotions loves someone who turns out to be N. Inevitable heartbreak. Sure, all the causes and hurts and abuses and damages are part of it. But this right here sums it up in a nutshell. For me anyway.
I'm very grateful for this exchange of yours, WRITE and Hops. It helps me gain understanding. And I do need to understand. I think it will help me move on from my own situation. Which is certainly not as long-term and all encompassing as what you're dealing with, WRITE. Still breaks my heart though. I'm very impressed with what you are doing here. If only your ex could take it in.
PP
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Write...it's YOU:
they are a resurrection, returning with unfailing grace even though they may be running late ( 'circumstances beyond our control'! )
As one of my blunter T's said in the past: You get there when you get there.
There is absolutely no question that you are motivated by deep compassion. Bless you for all the years you've tried. I'm glad he has his T, his meds, and more knowledge from your efforts than most Ns ever wind up with. He has been lucky to share so many of your years.
And PP, I'm very moved too by "take this as evidence of my caring." I'm not sure he'll ever get it, that's a big expansive heart...but I sure do.
(((((((((Write and PP))))))))))
Hops
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OH.... MY..... GOD.... !!!
ambivalence: poor dear, he's scared, so I'll be extra extra reassuring, show him how rewarding I'd be
inconsiderateness: he just hasn't learned how wonderful it can be to be considerate, I'll show him how
abusive: this must be his buried pain from his terrible mother/childhood/etc., I'll show him kindness
manipulative: this is one of his survival mechanisms and if I am just smart enough, I'll outthink him
indifferent: he's trying to disguise his deep-down yearning and vulnerability so I'll be extra attentive
coldness: I just need to be soooooo warm and giving, even more than before, that will help him thaw
cruelty: this is a test of how good I can be, that I can even love and forgive when he's hurt me so
lying: I know he's so insecure, and this has been his way of coping. I'll show him how to trust
There's women like this too, you know!
can add stealing and emotional infidelity there too
& I reckon commitmentphobic is a symptom of a lot more going on in there (or way too little going on in there !)
I'm a guy who's responded in exactly these ways over the last year living with a fiancee who went from the most wonderful fun giving loving caring talk about anything & everything perfect match to, well... all of the above overnight. Thing is, it wasnt that she changed, just one slip & the whole false facade falls apart, revealing what was going on all along. We were just blinded by the headlights before the mack truck ran us over !
All of the above ways of handling the abuse(r) are not so much for their benefit, but for yours :)
Look at it this way: If you love yourself enough to still be loving and give love under extremely cruel circumstances, imagine how dependable and solid your own foundations are within yourself :)
Sure, your EGO is battered horrendously, but your SELF is holding you together and will continue to do so ! :D
So yep, great lessons learned about someone else, and yourself, thing is there's good and bad in what we learn about ourselves and can apply it to our lives, talk about it with others, look after our friends better with these insights when they ask us "what do you think about..."
We are lucky to have the opportunity and courage and strength to take an honest deep look at ourselves, blessed to care enough about ourselves and others to learn and use the experience for everyone in our lives hapinness, and ultimately so much better off than these poor wretched cowardly souls who dont have the guts to face themselves, let alone others.
Phew ! Yup, lots of anger here
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Well hello, 2bbetter!
I love the way you plunged right off the diving board into the board--WELCOME!
(And you bet, Narcissistic or commitmentphobic women can hurt loving men just the same way.)
I'm sorry you've been through it too, but you sure sound as though you're coming out like a leaping tiger. Will look forward to learning more about you.
Hopalong
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from the book I got that the commitmentphobic does share something with the N- an inability to handle strong emotions, conflict between love and engulfment.
But the lack of empathy of a npd ( and especially if you get someone on the psycopath end of the scale who uses and abuses every part of you ) makes it rather than a hurtful surprising event an ongoing battle.
If you love yourself enough to still be loving and give love under extremely cruel circumstances, imagine how dependable and solid your own foundations are within yourself
exactly. Welcome 2bbetter!
Unconditional love- which I am only just learning in a non-parental context- is just that. No ties other than the love. And the love given out returns in your life eg
I'm not sure he'll ever get it...but I sure do.
It's like ripples on a pond, the more it changes you, the more it changes everything around.
My ex may never love me back but now I can love, really love- I can feel G_d's love, other people's love.
And their hostility isn't so scary too- I can understand more about it.
I can never love my ex enough to change him- only he can do that- but loving him anyway is changing me!
Thanks P ( and crying is good; I cry a lot some weeks, usually frustration )
If only your ex could take it in.
Who is to say he won't, somewhere down the road. But I'm taking it in, and seeing how I have to let go my expectations and human need for guarantees and 'results' to trust that love will do what it does, and I can't control that.
My ex said to me I took advantage of his vulnerability! We argued a bit, but found a communication level and he was able to describe it better and I know what he means- I wanted the guarantee of someone who could not abandon me on some level, probably because my earliest experience was being abandonned. Now I know what my strongest subconscious motivations are. Abandonment and the fear of being unloveable.
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the fear of being unloveable
Some fear is irrational. ((((((((((((((((loveable Write))))))))))))))))))))
I love what you said: "Love will do what it does."
(I went to a church mtg. last night and though I was contributing good stuff I absolutely could not shut up and felt embarrassed and wrote everyone a note after, and David, our minister, wrote me back saying, "You hold yourself to higher standards than everyone else. Is that fair? Please don't feel apologetic, it was a very productive meeting.") That was SO kind.
Write you are being so very brave right now, facing all this change.
You will make it and you will be safe. Keep singing, keep trusting yourself.
Hops
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Write,
Abandonment and the fear of being unloveable.
This is me to a T. The fear of abandonment kept me begging a man who didn't love me, was having an affair and had admitted to being addicted to pornography and masturbation, not to leave me. How pathetic is that? Then you get to the flip side where you think you should end a relationship first, so as not to be abandoned (because you assume you are not loveable and will eventually be abandoned).
I wish there could be a way for you to minimize the amount of access your stbx has to your emotions, but I know you feel you are doing what is best for everyone concerned. I, personally, had to completely separate myself from my ex during the divorce proceedings--changed the locks within weeks of his leaving, only let him come to the front door when picking up our daughter, and only worked through my attorney on the legal stuff.
From my experience of reentering the dating world, you will probably find it somewhat difficult to pursue new relationships while still so entangled with your h. Most healthy men will be tentative at best about a situation like this, as I would have been if the situation were reversed. I hope the two of you can come to a good working relationship which only revolves around your son.
Welcome 2bbetter.
If you love yourself enough to still be loving and give love under extremely cruel circumstances, imagine how dependable and solid your own foundations are within yourself
Yes, somehow we manage to keep from losing that part of ourselves, no matter how hard they try to steal it from us. Sometimes you just have to dig very deep to find that loving foundation and then learn to trust it.
Brigid
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I, personally, had to completely separate myself from my ex during the divorce proceedings--changed the locks within weeks of his leaving, only let him come to the front door when picking up our daughter, and only worked through my attorney on the legal stuff.
Hi Brigid, good to hear your voice.
Having heard so many different experiences on the N-scale I wouldn't advocate love as a method for everyone- most Ns notoriously take advantage. My ex included sometimes.
But my ex does exhibit some signs of trying to change at least, plus although he's inconsistent- I can largely read him now, and he does try in his own way to make amends for the hurtful things he says and does. He's inconsistently consistent (?! ) in that.
In a way I've divorced him off emotionally and it's when I 'forget' and respond to him like he's another loving person in my life then get hurt when he sips back into N behaviour...that's why I know it's definitely over for us. He may possibly change enough to be a good partner with someone else, but with me he always slips back into our old pattern, plus he's really resentful anytime I grow or change.
you will probably find it somewhat difficult to pursue new relationships while still so entangled with your h.
You're right- no more dating until after the divorce is final.
It's just confusing things.
I mean romantic dating- I am happy to accept invitations to socialise with my guy friends and I can spend some time learning how to relax and enjoy a man's company without going into emotional overdrive!
It's funny how many of those invitations I have had lately, at first I was a little hurt thinking 'doesn't anyone want to be really involved with me' but now I realise- it's where I'm meant to be right now and I can truly move on and find a lover next year when everything is sorted and falls into place.
I hope the two of you can come to a good working relationship which only revolves around your son.
He's wonderful with a lot of the things I am rubbish at.
Last night my son had a bicycle accident and hit a neighbour's old car causing 2 scratches. The guy didn't seem pleased or able to say he wanted us to fix things, but they are the people we have helped so many times financially and I started to feel disappointed when he talked about getting the damage fixed- and especially since we know the family well and they have no clue about financial responsibility and would quite likely get a huge repair quote unnecessarily.
My ex talked to me about my emotional response, said 'if you don't forget about what you've given away, you weren't really giving it away' and fetched $200 and gave it to the guy, who was delighted.
My ex would only accept $50 from me although I offered half, and then went and talked to our son about his hysterical response to the accident, he said 'if you do something you are afraid about that's what me and your mum are here to sort out, you can take responsibility for your actions without overreacting!'
One reason I know I am doing the right thing for our family is I have watched all this develop in a man who didn't have much clue before our son, and there are lots of situations like this which he can handle better than I would.
Do you still have to see your ex at all Brigid?
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Hi Write,
no more dating until after the divorce is final.
It's just confusing things.
I mean romantic dating- I am happy to accept invitations to socialise with my guy friends and I can spend some time learning how to relax and enjoy a man's company without going into emotional overdrive!
Good for you :D. This is a very wise choice. I did the same thing. Just had some casual relationships which allowed me to get out of the house, have dinner with another adult and hopefully, some interesting conversation. It helps to get you comfortable with being with different men after so many years of being with just one, and hopefully just have some fun and maybe some new experiences. I did that for about a year and a half, on and off, until I met my b/f--which didn't happen until after the divorce was final. And even then, we dated very casually for the first 4 months.
Do you still have to see your ex at all Brigid?
Yes, occasionally. I haven't seen him since our daughter's graduation ceremony in June, but we e-mail now and then if there is information to be shared. Now that both kids are gone from the area, I won't need to see him except if we encounter each other out in public. This is certainly possible as he now lives 2 blocks from my b/f and we hang out in some of the same places, but I no longer care if I see him anymore.
It sounds like you are doing great and making some good decisions for yourself. Hang in there, it does get better. And when the time is right, hopefully you will meet someone who can fill the empty holes which were created by your h. I'm here to tell you that it can and does happen. :)
Hugs,
Brigid
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I'm here to tell you that it can and does happen.
oh thank you! I hope so.
I am so ready to love and be loved!
I'm glad you found someone, it's heartening how many people here have been through really tough times but go on to find real happiness with all they learned.
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Yes, Write, I am very happy, very much in love, and I do believe very loved in return, BUT that doesn't mean I have been able to eliminate my great fear of abandonment. My b/f has never given me any reason to believe that he would do that since we became exclusive and serious with each other, but it is something I was not able to completely work through in therapy. I'm not sure that I ever will.
It may have to do with the fact that I really have no other attachments to anyone else, aside from my children. I have some wonderful friends, but they all have immediate and extended families to whom they are close and I will always consider myself an outsider to some degree. Despite how dysfunctional my ex in-laws were, they did become my family, most of them live nearby, and we all did get along for the most part. Sadly, they not only abandoned me, but my children for the most part. The kids never felt particularly close to their grandparents, or my ex sil and her children, but they hardly ever see them now. My ex FIL was always weird about only wanting his own children around and the grandchildren and out-laws were not made to feel welcome. He is an n to the max, and I believe he resented the grandchildren taking away the attention and adoration that he always expected from his children.
I believe that those of us who never felt close to and loved by our parents, just assume that everyone will leave us eventually. For the most part, I haven't yet been disappointed. But I should know by now that being married in no way guarantees that someone will stay with you. It is a merry-go-round that I wish to get off.
Brigid
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they not only abandoned me, but my children for the most part. The kids never felt particularly close to their grandparents, or my ex sil and her children, but they hardly ever see them now. My ex FIL was always weird about only wanting his own children around and the grandchildren and out-laws were not made to feel welcome. He is an n to the max, and I believe he resented the grandchildren taking away the attention and adoration that he always expected from his children.
families are strange, as soon as there are problems it's like the blood ties close ranks.
My ex's family are closer to me in many ways but I think they'd still do this after all these years!
All of us in our families were diappointed in the lack of input from grandparents to the children, don't know why really, it was pretty ture to their previous behaviour. But it's very hard to accept those little beings who so delight and fascinate us aren't that interesting to people wrapped up in themselves!