Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Hopalong on September 04, 2006, 08:40:58 PM
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Hi all, and especially GS (couldn't remember which thread was your original about your house):
I was just watching a show on hoarding, which is a very difficult form of OCD. Hmmm!
I just wondered.
I don't shop, accumulate new stuff. But I do avoid "processing" paperwork and tidying up. A lot sometimes.
I am just wondering if my intense avoidance of dealing with paperwork, which naturally results in stray (and sometime important) things being spread all over and sometimes lost and often dealt with late...
do y'all think it might be in some way a subtle form of Hoarding?
Sounds stupid, but I know that when I do get things filed, that feels good. But one of the ways my paperwork/financial organization anxiety/resistance/procrastination manifests itself is that the process itself, of opening, filing, organizing and properly getting rid of the mail/forms/receipts/documents etc.-- triggers strong anxiety.
Just like the idea of throwing out the out of control clutter feels to hoarders. Hmmm.
That's all, hmmm. But I was wondering. Not so much for "diagnostic" reasons, but just to muse on how lots of these things might be interwoven (instead of in the tidy separate diagnostic boxes we often like to use): procrastination, anxiety, OCD (e.g., hoarding)... all of which, unhelped, are Depression. Or result in it.
Hmmm.
Hops
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Hops -
Read a little about "executive function" in your brain. That might give you some insight. But I can't help wondering why your therapist thinks you are not ADD. Your description is classically ADD. Well - one of my favoite books is "The Mind & The Brain" by Jeffrey M. Schwartz, MD. He is a psychiatrist specializing in OCD. The subtitle to his book is, "Neuroplasticity and the Power of Mental Force." In this book he explores a means of correcting the malfunctionin of the OCD mind by recognizing the problematic thought, identifying them as the result of a faulty brain and then replacing those problem thoughts with more appropriate thoughts.
Just for example, when you referred to your own actions as "pathetic", Schwartz would have you stop and say, "Oops, that's an example of a thought that I want to change. That thougth, "pathetic" is really nothing more than a malfunction of my brain. A properly functioning brain would have said, "job well done."
Anyway - I am 100% with you on this self examination about hoarding. I have seen some very interesting shows about hoarders. In August or July 20/20 or 48 Hours did a disturbing segment. It is all too close to home for me. My NPD father is a hoarder. That OCD/hoarding was the first obvious craziness that showed up when my brothers and I were starting to finish college and move on. I hate to say this outloud but one of the things my father couldn't do was pay bills. It had nothing to do with having enough money. I had to do with perfectionism. He couldn't get things figured out EXACTLY and so he couldn't finish the process. Crazy stuff like not having enough stamps to stamp all of the envelopes or running out of rubber bands to hold everything together. Anything could derail him. Now that stuff is OCD!
I don't have OCD but I do have the very same struggles you describe. My psychologist and psychiatrist are both convinced these are results of ADD for me. But I am convinced that it is something more because the Adderall has done little to change things. I'm not sure what it is but it is a combination of that wretched "perfectionism" and, I think, shame. I think the shame and perfectionism are tightly related for me. I think not being able to get stuff done "paralysis" is because no matter what I do I can hear the voices of criticsm and belittlement - the double bind - that I experienced for so long. The damned if you do and damned if you don't. How can you move if you are damned either way?
Anyway - WAY too much about me. Sort of struck a nerve - big surprise. I hope you get lots of responses that help you. I'll be reading closely!!!
Much love and great hope - Gaining Strength
Hey Moonlight-
you posted while I was typing. Well organizing, cleaning, functioning has not yet begun to materialize but a prelude has. I am getting clarity on the unconscious voice that binds and am daily strengthening my mind. My faith is stronger and stronger. When I look back, just two months, I see absolutely dramatic progress in areas I have struggled with for years. My raging anger that was a HUGE problem each and every day is now all but gone. Encounters with store clerks, waiters, any service people in person or by phone was always a struggle and left me frustrated or angry but today I get smiles from most everyone I encounter. These are miraculous changes. So I am convinced that as I continue to make these "thought" changes that the outward changes I long for will soon be manifest.
Thanks for asking and thanks even more for me to focus narcissisticly on myself. (I guess children and significant others of N's haven't done too much of this in life.)
All my best - Gaining Strength
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I had a book on procrastination but I never got around to reading it and now I do not know where to find it.
LOL, Moon.
That is hysterical. I don't think the author's could really know 'procrastination' or the book still wouldn't be finished. LOL
GS
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from www.nanonline.org
Disturbance of Behavior and Personality
Patients with lesions of the ventromedial portion of the frontal lobes have a behavioral syndrome characterized by lack of originality and creativity, impairment of attention, and a tendency to display inappropriate emotions and behavior. They have difficulty initiating behavior; when they do engage in activity, they may continue the activity without stopping. They may only start activity when prompted by others.
This last line is really significant for me. I really respond to others but not at all {paralyzed} when it is up to me. This is with bill, correspondence, cleaning (My house wasn't perfect before my husband died but it was NEVER like it is now.)
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GS,
Thanks. I must explore this further.
tt
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A GREAT BIG SMOOCH TO GS!!!!!
I got your prayers, I felt your support, I thought of you several times (as I avoided more) over the last few days, I felt your presence as an ally, I felt so much kinship over the letting-things-pile-up paralysis, I prayed for us both in church, I got your PM...
and my Executive Secretary Angel arrived!!! (True, she looked something like a bat, crikey, not the standard white-feather type, but hey, I like bats and given the state of my room, I can certainly relate to caves...)
GS, bless your orderly caring peaceful worthy inner self, I paid my bills!!!!
Not all of them, but the ones that were critical. And get THIS! :D :D :D
The one I was so scared about having put off 2 months since I just KNEW the credit bureau thingy would report me as late 30 days+...I called them and it didn't even happen for two reasons I'd never thought of:
1) I had a credit from returned shoes and they counted that as a payment
2) I do have an excellent track record of normally paying promptly
3) I have two days' leeway and that's the exact date the service will transfer the funds
All gobbledygook but instead of tearing my hair out over my math phobia, I just neatly wrote in EVERY transaction my online banking indicated, accepted the BANK'S total for my current balance, and though it's by the skin of my teeth (I majored in tooth-skinning and last-minute paper writing), I am caught up with NO DAMAGE.
Anyway, it may sound guffawish for a grown woman to be thrilled about having processed a very few checks, and ALL THE FILING STILL REMAINS, with some other things to be paid...but there's time...
But it is a serious confirmation to me of the power of...support.
Thank you, Gaining Strength, for sending me some of your strength.
BACK AT YOU, GOOD WOMAN!
(And I greedily ask for those vibes to keep coming, and I am convinced I will get that filing done. Not this evening...church meeting, but I can put in an hour early morning, and get the rest done Sat., before I leave for my week with my D, and then I can truly relax.)
((((((((GS))))))) Now, I'm going to keep on specifically and intentionally sending you support, often. I don't know what just happened but it felt like such a gift.
Hops
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Moonlight - congratulations!!!!
Hops - I got on just to check and see if there was a word from you. I am so excited!!!!! That is unbelieveable!! I am a great believer in the magic of support and encouragement. One of the things I love about cyber-space support circles is that there are no strings attached, there is little fear of betrayal, no one gets left out and we don't have to wait for the next meeting. We can be intouch regularly.
I am so, so, so excited. I thought about you today and kept you in my mind as I imagined you getting out your bills and working on them. It is encouraging for ME to be a part of your success. Now I am going to capitalize on your success tonight after I put my child to bed. Thanks for the great news.
Gaining Strength
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Yay dittos, Moon! A dyamo with a sore wing, even more impressive!
GS, :D --do you realize you might have started something by starting this whole discussion that could help a whole lot of people?
Bless you for this. It IS a shame-based subject, and bless you for helping chip a big chunk out of that wall. Let's keep at it together, and with anyone else who struggles with keeping order, (or making some), and with procrastination. I know it's an anxiety thing...and has so many echos of meaing.
I'm keeping you in my thoughts too. I expect good things for you, even small one-at-a-time actions that will ease your fears.
Grateful hugs again,
Hops
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Hey hops!!!!!
That's some serious "Higher Power" stuff there! At least that's how I see things :)
I have a hard time doing things too because I am always afraid they won't be done perfectly. Even cleaning the fish tank. I have to tell myself that I can just clean it well for now and reclean it in a day or two if I am still uncomfortable. Really. Also with shving my legs. I have to tell myself to just go ahead and do it and if it still needs more, I can do it two days in a row. I don't actually do the things two days in a row, but it gets me to do it the first time.
Brava on cleaning moon!!!!!!!!!
I also have a hard time being creative, because my father's attitude is that nothing that you do hasn't already been done. And that nothing is ever good enough. I had almost a panic attack taking down my painting show, because I decided that with the exception of a very few, I hated them all and I was embarrassedt o have had them hang there. It's not true, really. I have had people call and ask if I sell and all. But I wanted to crawl under a rock that day. I didn't even used to sign my painitngs. Everyone kept getting upset with me. No I paint huge flowers and have a teeny signature hidden on the stem.
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Oh-HO, Miz Beth!
I feel a little challenge coming on (a loving one)...
How about a painting where you take joy in your signature? And don't hide it?
THAT IS SO REAL, THAT PEOPLE JUST SIMPLY ACCEPT YOU AS A REAL (AND SALEABLE) ARTIST.
It's just real. Not toxic, and nothing to do with any old ghost's opinion. Piffle on that.
You create all the time and you deserve to enjoy it.
I wonder if it would help you to paint while you listen to something funny? Some recording or routine that just makes you laugh?
(I know, I'm always thinking of sound therapy...)
On a happy opinionated roll here...ignore me if I'm pushing too many bits of advice.
love,
Hops
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I have to tell myself to just go ahead and do it and if it still needs more, I can do it two days in a row.
Great stategy!!
It IS a shame-based subject, and bless you for helping chip a big chunk out of that wall. Let's keep at it together,
I am deply grateful to find a place to talk about this. I made some progress today!!! Both in cleaning and also in developing strategies for battle. The intense shaming happened on a deep, unconscious, (perhaps even unspoken) level that it has been vey dificult for me to access it. And then validating this shaming for myself has been another battle all together. It is so important to me to have found others who have had similar experiences and who are willing to talk about it.
When I start to clean, I am overwhelmed with shame. That is so strange. It has actually taken YEARS to figure out what stops me in my tracks. It must touch something in my unconscious memory. It taps into a pralyzing sense of unworthiness. As though I am unworthy to even attempt cleaning because a worthy person would nave never allowed things to get to this stage anyway. I think this comes from generations of struggles with worthiness/unworthiness. My family has always had pleny of money but we weren't allowed to talk about it. When I left home my father never gave me money and never talked about it. All the people I grew up with had lots of money and so suddenly they were buying and furnishing huge homes while I was living in a small apartment, working and getting behind. Suddenly, I didn't fit in to the social world I had grown up in. And I couldn't make the kind of money I had been used to and I felt unworthy to get a better paying job. (That's a whole other issue that I have worked on for 15 years.) My father was very clear to me as a child, "Don't ask for what you want. You get what you deserve." He learned that lessen painfully from his N father when he was a little boy. I learned not to ask and was devastaed when class mates, co-workers sought and got great jobs and great salaries. For some years now I have been able to bring these struggles to consciousness and name them but recently I realized that so much of the same problem still was hidden deep in my unconscious and I have to bring it up. It was confusing because it is the same stuff - shame, unworthiness. There just was so much!!!
Now I have to bring it out and laser it with higher energy. That's what I'm doing today. When I feel it (the shame) coming up to grip me, I try to figure out where I feel it and tn I just see it in my mind and concentrate positive energy (which for me is Christ's love) straight at it. This really helps. But there is so much of it that I can get completely overcome by the morass if I am not vigilant.
Today, I took a little time out and came to see what was going on here and now I'm going to regain some strength and go back to annihilating shame again. That's alot better than living annihilated.
Thanks for letting me post here. I would not share this crazy sounding stuff with anyone in person. I would be too ashamed. But here I feel empowered, because I am realizing that someone might really understand what I mean by this. Every day I get little moment of a sense of belonging and healing. I use those as signs of th healing that is taking place. Just a few months ago I had to struggle for hope in the same way I am struggling to annihilate shame - a little bit at a time. I never gave up on hope and now I have it fully. It has become a norm for me. So overcoming shame will become a norm for me. Then I can function just like normal people. I suspect, because shame and unworthiness became my identity, that it will take many cycles of battling shame but I can handle the other layers. Once I have become free to clean and work and function just like anyone, then I can deal with "regular" as opposed to "debilitating" shame.
Alright - thanks for listening. Now I've laid myself low revealing TOO much about my nutty self. But I am safe here and very thankful for that and for those of you who read this and think, "right on, GS."
Still Gaining Strength and willing to face my demons a little bit at a time.
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I believe now that I have "kicked " n parent out of my head that has helped so much.
I am so glad for you!!!
Thanks for your encouragement. It is so helpful to come here and get that support that we have always needed but didn't have for so long.
GS
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So thank you so much for giving the board your wisdom I have learned so much from you.Thank you
Thank you Moon. It feels great that something I write is of value to someone.
GS
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Hops,
I got my downstairs bath cleaned. It only took 5 minutes. But the crux is that I don't feel as though I have made progress, haven't accomplished much. I think my attitude is a big problem. I'm going to change that and feel good about what I've done. Now I'm going to go get some laundry done and vacuum a little.
Working hard on annihilating that shame.
GS
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Hops,
Would there be anything wrong with just saying, I don't like to do paperwork? Is it necessary to assign it a psychological name unless there are other behaviors to back it up?
I despise paperwork. All the years I was in business, I had an assistant who kept everything at her fingertips in case I needed it. She loved doing paperwork. It was part of her gift. It will never be a part of my giftedness. I can no longer afford or justify an assistant and sometimes, I'd rather be beat than do the darned paperwork. Part of the frustration is the demanding deadlines.
Asking my debtors to arrange a payment date that falls into one certain week of the month allows me in most cases to write bills once a month rather than writing checks randomly as they come in. It sounds like you may have other deadline generating stuff going on, but maybe my little offering here will help.
Be kind to yourself.
teartracks
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GS,
I think a clean downstairs bathroom is quite something! (I didn't have a timer going...) How about considering the FEELING of each space you deal with...not how you "ONLY" did 5 minutes worth.
Hmm, what would help. How about this! How about putting a FLOWER in every spot you conquer.
That little bloom (or leaf or bit of greenery from some shrub) will smile at you every time you look at what you've accomplished and say to yourself...well, it was ONLY a few minutes of focus.
Gee, GS. We gotta get you in the habit of loving yourself hon. You get big squishy self-hugs and cyberhugs for every little thing you do.
C'mon, do it. You know how. Hand over shoulder, pats on back. No, that was half-hearted. Now do it again...with some AFFECTION. Faking it is FINE (that's how you get self-love if it doesn't feel normal at first--you FAKE it!) Talk friendlily (is friendlily a word?) to self: Hey, self, you did what you did and you did that just fine! Bravo, me!
(I sound silly but I am cheering like crazy. I know. I know. I so get it.)
hugs,
Hops
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I love the cheering Hops. Thanks, thanks, thanks. I can't get enough of it. I've always been so auster about such stuff - probably masochistic. Anyway - you are right - I need to lighten up. I had an epiphany today that I have taken on what was projected onto me and now it is time to let it GO, GO, GO.
Thanks for being my cheering squad. I sure could have used on growing up, glad to have one now -
Gaining Strength
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Hops, you come up with the cutest ideas.
GS... remember, if it's not perfect today, you can always reclean it later:) I try to live by those little tips in the magazines too... when on the phone I sort through papers or clean out a drawer. I always (almost) go upstairs with something in hand (or downstairs). I do a little bit here and there. I know my house is OK, but I still have the shame too. I also have a cleaning person come in once a week... and I still have the shame. So, GS< let's have a cup of coffee and focus on each other and not analyze the spot on the wall that needs scrubbing or the fish tank that has a bit of algae in the corner. Like you said... progress not perfection. My favorite three words :)
Love, Beth
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TT--
Meant to thank you so much for the permission to say I hate paperwork! I do. But I do think there's some interesting aspects of it that remind me of ocd-ish things. I'm not saddened by that really it gives me a sense of insight...(my dear dad was a bit OCD, though we didn't call it that)...
And thanks for the suggestions too. For me, the task, once I get through Paper Mountain, is to stay on it, just the few minutes a day it will take to keep things in control. It's the daily dealing that I think makes paralysis or phobic types of things so hard....
If I were phobic about snakes I could probably avoid them forever. But feeling practially phobic about one of the legs of a more secure life ... I must deal with the stuff.
My progress has been in spurts...I don't spend or buy stuff often. So it's not that...it's just an escapist thing, because the financial/insurance etc. paper part of life is symbolic of the security I've had so many fears about.
Falling asleeeeeeeeep, sweet dreams TT...
Hops
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progress not perfection
Oh how nice! I am so clear about how devastating perfectionism is. Progress has never been enough. That's a great place for me to focus.
Hops - I've never thought about my own paralysis in those terms before. Eureka! That's it - it is a fear about security!! I grew up with money but now have no money. I went from one state to the next with out a word from my Daddy Bucks. He was so in charge that he never allowed me to be in charge of anything myself and never taught me how to provide for myself or what I needed to do. He was either in charge or gone. His way or nothing. Now I get it. I am terrified!
Now I've got a name for it I can do something about it. I can't thank you enough, can't thank this marvelous community enough. I am truly grateful.
GS