Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: adrift on September 08, 2006, 10:06:40 PM
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First off, hi all, hope you've all been well. I've been awol lately but all is fine.
Why is it that fidelity doesn't seem to be such a big deal with me????
Trust and fidelity are supposed to be linked arm in arm, right? I expect my kids to be totally honest, I expect my friends to be honest, I expect myself to be honest, I expect others to follow the "normal" mores of honesty and keeping obligations---I'd be mortified if DH decided to not pay the bills or decided to quit work, etc... but somehow the idea of him having an affair doesn't bother me (except in the sense I'd be worried he'd fall for the other woman and then would leave me and the kids and I wouldn't want the kids hurt) and part of me has no qualms whatsoever with being unfaithful to him----although I haven't been yet. What is wrong with me?????????
If hubby was unfaithful I'd want him to practice safe sex, of course, and be very discreet but shouldn't I be all ready to go ballistic over the idea of him being unfaithful.
Yes, hubby and I have discussed this before. We've even discussed giving each other permission to pursue other interests but we come back to the idea that it's wrong and that it would probably inadvertantly end up hurting the kids---I mean as discreet as you try to be, people talk.
So go ahead and tell me how crazy I am. I need a reality check.
Adrift
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I'm going to tackle this from an unexpected angle, adrift.
It looks to me as though you're making some assumptions, of which you seem to be unaware.
I think you're assuming that if your H found a side interest, the lady would be a decent sort who would play fair, accept her role as 'the chick on the side', enjoy a transient fling, feel no competitiveness towards you at all, never want your hubby around on the big holidays, and not try to push you out of your home and take over the marriage for herself.
Now, ask yourself: what kind of woman knowingly gets involved with another woman's husband in the first place?
Two kinds, mainly.
Kind One: lonely [or young, or both] romantics who get in over their head - usually these women are the approached, not the approachers. They usually pay a terrible price for the involvement... and often feel guilty as heck about what they've done to another woman, afterwards. You gonna respect your husband for messing with some kid's head like that?
Kind Two [or if you prefer, Unkind One]: Predators. Of all ages. I knew a twentysomething who got really sick kicks out of destroying other womens' marriages. I also knew a fiftysomething who had the same nest-soiling urges. And I knew a couple of gals in different companies I worked for who used the old 'sleep with the boss and get preggers' stunt to pry executives away from their wives and pre-existing kids.
You want your husband messing around with creatures like that? Because that's what's out there, and they'll home in on him like barracuda, if he's sending signals.
In re you being the cheata, ask yourself how you would insure that the guy you pick to mess around with wouldn't stalk you once you decided the game was over, or go irrational and try to hurt your husband in order to get you away from him.
I'm just saying... this kind of thing is messy, messy, messy. Very few Open Marriages last once they've been opened, and very few people can actually accept [and forgive] in practice what appeals to them in theory. Sometimes one partner discovers they really don't want the marriage to be open, after all - and the other one says: the heck with you, I'm enjoying this...
Who really wants to invite that kind of pain into their lives?
I am not making the argument from morals, here, and it's for a reason: I think the argument from ethics and abnormal psychology is probably what underlies the moral restrictions in the first place.
Spoken as one who lost her ex to cheating [well, actually I kicked him to the curb when I found out], but also as one who has received a few invitations from would-be cheating hubbies.
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You're right, Storm. I know you're right. My exact worry about hubby having a fling is that the other female would want more than just the fling. Is this mid-life crisis I'm going through?? Up until about 2 years ago I would never have considered such a thing, and would have been aghast if anyone would have thought I would sully myself with an affair. I was so pristine.
And even before I read your post, Storm, I've begun to understand what my EA (emotional affair guy) meant over a year ago. One night he set up for us to be alone, I stupidly moved in for a kiss (therapist called that being brave---that and the fact that I told hubby all about it later anyway,,,,,,wasn't this what EA and I had all been leading up to for so long?????????????) and he pulls back and replies "I have a really good woman at home and I don't want to mess that up"
SLAP He might as well have slapped me in the face. I HAVE always been a really good woman, never been unfaithful at all to my hubby, have a sterling reputation---well in real life I do---on here I'm more honest. Anyway, no one wants to hear about the wife at a moment like that. I walked out the door (just as he was saying, "But I LOVE YOU" ) thinking that his comment about his wife meant he had decided he wasn't interested once the moment came. Boy was I pissed and embarrassed. Now, about a year later I realize he wasn't saying "no" he was saying "can we keep this all on the side and not mess up my marriage" Well, heck, I wasn't gonna ruin my marriage over him, it was a physical thing totally----o.k. an obsessive physical thing. And yes, on a number of occassions later he tried for us to be together again but it never worked out. For some reason I'm not getting passed this guy or this thing that did or didn't happen. Maybe because my marriage isn't exactly fulfilling???
Go ahead an fuss at me, give me your best shot, someone straighten me out!!!
And thanks Storm for the honesty. It's what I need.
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I won't fuss at you, and I can't judge you. I just don't want to see you hurt yourself and him, or to see him hurt himself and you, and there's so much hurt just waiting to happen in situations like this -
((((((((((adrift))))))))))
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Hi Adrift,
I think trust and fidelity matter a lot, but they can't replace a lack of curiosity and joy between spouses.
I think Passionate Marriage is a good book for you and your H to read, they recommend separate copies. (I think it might blow your minds a little...it did mine, and I was single when I read it.)
Not-a-Judge-Either Hops
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hi adrift,
All's I can say is..I feel your pain here. I seem to be attracting all sorts of guys at work lately. I don't know if I'm sending out signals or what! The really weird thing is I do NOT want to have an affair, ever. I love my boyfriend. I cannot imagine being unfaithful. So what's the deal with all the extra attraction at work? I have no idea...
Sometimes I think I need a lobotomy, cause I know it's somehow my fault. Maybe if I stopped talking to guys..
It goes back to the old adage: Can Men and Women Really Be Friends???
p bean
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Pb,
uh oh. I just posted on another thread re: signals women send out... and now what you've said here helps me to clarify my own thoughts on it.
Please know that I believe you when you say that you are absolutely not interested in an affair, that you love your boyfriend.
The sort of signals being received by men in your workplace may not have anything to do with an "I'm available" undercurrent (if there are, in fact, any signals at all). But what I'm thinking is... you have been doing so much work in digging through issues, opening yourself up to others here, in therapy, and to yourself, making yourself vulnerable ... maybe that openness in general, that vulnerability, is what they're keying into. I just wanted to be clear in expressing that I don't think you're doing anything wrong... or adrift either... but I think that this is a natural consequence of the process we all go through in exploring our inner selves. Stuff gets laid bare ... o boy, I think I'll quit while I'm ahead... (((((Pb))))) ((((((Adrift)))))))
Love,
Hope
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Guess I'll play the bad guy. Hope you don't mind, adrift.
but somehow the idea of him having an affair doesn't bother me
That's because you are contempating one, and so if you judge him you are judging yourself, right?
We've even discussed giving each other permission to pursue other interests but we come back to the idea that it's wrong and that it would probably inadvertantly end up hurting the kids---I mean as discreet as you try to be, people talk.
Those are external reasons not to do something you know is wrong. Where are the internal ones?
Everyone is tempted in life in one way or the other every day. Either you end up being ruled by your temptations or you wake up every day and do the boring routines and unpleasant tasks that let you live with yourself.
Whatever internal processes are letting this thing fester inside of you rather than concentrate on making the best you can with the cards you've been dealt is the problem, not that your marriage isn't fulfilling. My bank account isn't fulfilling either but I don't go down to the 7-11 and tell Apu to fill a paper bag up with cash.
Whether the best way of dealing with those internal issues is doing the tough job of working on your marriage or going to therapy or bulding model ships inside bottles who knows. But take it from a guy who gets hay fever, the worst thing, by far, you can do to an itch is scratch it.
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Hi adrift,
I can address this issue from both standpoints--I was a cheater 32 years ago in my first marriage, and I was cheated upon 3 years ago in my second. Trust me when I say, it will never, ever make you feel anything but rotten when you're the cheater; and you will never, ever feel more betrayed and devasted than when you've been cheated upon.
The fact that you and your h are talking about it is a good thing. It means you need to get some help for your marriage--and that help can never come by way of another relationship, no matter how far it goes or doesn't go. Either the marriage is, at its basic level, good and worthy of being worked on and saved, or it is doomed to fail, but don't test the water with someone else to find out if the grass is greener on the other side. It will almost always appear that way when you are in the middle of an affair, but when the dust settles, the marriages of one or both parties is in crisis or ruined, the kids are devastated and ashamed by the cheating parent's behavior and you no longer have any respect for yourself, the grass will quickly look quite brown.
Also, if a marriage is headed to divorce for whatever reason, having an affair only muddies the waters and make the divorce process much more ugly, angry, revengeful, bitter and just plain difficult. I am not suggesting that you are heading for, or in any way planning to divorce your h; but if either one of you decides to follow through on the permission to have an affair, the chances of a divorce occurring will increase exponentially and it will not be pretty.
NO ONE is a winner in an affair, there are only big losers and the biggest losers, imo, are the children. That is not a legacy you wish for them to have and believe me, they will find out sooner or later. Children learn behavior from watching their parents and it is statistically proven that children of cheaters have a greater risk of cheating themselves.
I am not judging you, nor do I have a right to. I just have been there and done that and know that it will solve nothing and only create chaos and misery. Be kind to yourself and find a better way.
Hugs,
Brigid
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Brigid, I've said it before and it bears repeating - you ROCK!!!!!!!
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Brigid, I've said it before and it bears repeating - you ROCK!!!!!!!
Ditto. Well actually I don't think I ever said 'you rock' but you get the idea of the ditto.
mud
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:lol: :lol: :lol:
Mud, I really think you need to go out in the back yard and do a little victory dance and jump up and down and say things like:
Mudster, my man, you rock!
What a good boy am I!
Or do your best Tiny Tim imitation with an IPod, whatever it takes.
:D
Hops
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Stormy & Mud,
Brigid, I've said it before and it bears repeating - you ROCK!!!!!!!
Gee, thanks, guys :oops: :oops:. It's so nice to be an "expert" in such a shi**y subject area. :?
BTW--Muddy, I don't think you've ever said that I rocked, but I know that you think I do, in whatever way mudpuppies express such things. 8)
Hugs,
B.
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Dear Teartracks,
I had come face to face with my own nothingness. It was as if all that had given my life meaning was pulled away and I could see nothing in front of me but a bottomless abyss.
He really has been there, hasn't he? The dark night of the soul... bringing the body home.
I am going to get this book. Thank you, Tt, for sharing a bit of it here.
Dear Adrift,
Been thinking of you this afternoon, and maybe Mud is correct in his assessment. But I'm not sure. I've been thinking about what Teartracks said earlier in this thread, when she suggested that
"The kind of disregard you have for trust and fidelity probably means you are in survival mode. "
I've been in that mode to the point where I lost touch with my inner core to such an extent that, looking back ~I hardly recognize myself.
Fidelity wasn't the issue for me, but there have been other things that I've become numb, unfeeling, uncaring about.
For instance, years ago, with my kids' dad... I came to not care whether my suspicions re: his marijuana use were correct. That may seem like an insignificant matter compared to infidelity, but I've always despised drug abuse. Under normal circumstances, it would have been impossible for me to accept this, but the situation had grown so hopeless, I somehow managed to resign myself to it. I stopped looking for evidence. I stopped caring what he was doing. I didn't drink heavily at that time, but looking back, I can see that was the beginning. The beginning of emotionally and mentally checking out on things that always used to matter greatly to me.
Adrift, I believe that you can ask God to search your heart and help you to work through any issues that are revealed.
I'll be keeping you in prayer.
Love,
Hope
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Hello Adrift,
I have to say I felt a pull towards infidelity when I became aware just how distant my husband was always going to be. I might have even thrown that out there during an argument.
And I have to say that there was that tiny part of me that tried to use this as a way to hurt him back for the hurt I felt in response to his rejection of intimacy with me. After thinking through the sordidness of the whole thing, I knew I could never actually go through with it. I also knew it would never be satisfactory. Just raise a whole nother set of problems.
Sometimes couples kind of play chicken with this sort of thing.
Plucky
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Hello Adrift,
Sometimes couples kind of play chicken with this sort of thing.
Quote from Plucky
Mr moon and I have done this but really one can not start another relationship
without completely letting go of the one that you are in.
Like Brigid says quite rightly.
Mr moon does not verbally tell me I am wonderful (except when we were with T)
ALSO HE WAS VENTING AND THEN CAME THE THINGS HE LIKES ABOUT ME.
How long have you been married?A lot of trust and intimacy comes from living though the good times and bad and being there .
I am sure you can search your heart and find your answers .
Have you thought about going to see a T ?
Blessings,
moon
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I'm cutting and pasting the parts that really make sense, strike a chord, hit home, trigger something inside of me, or seem to deserve contemplation. THanks guys!! Y'all ROCK!!
I think you are concerned for what you believe may be a fault line in your character. You say you 'need' help, but my sense is that impulsive, on the spot gratification has a strong pull on you. And delays your having to face up to underlying character issues. One thing you can bank on is that you are not prepared for any half-brained, impulsive adventure into infidelity. The kind of disregard you have for trust and fidelity probably means you are in survival mode.
I think trust and fidelity matter a lot, but they can't replace a lack of curiosity and joy between spouses.
That's because you are contempating one, and so if you judge him you are judging yourself, right?
Whatever internal processes are letting this thing fester inside of you rather than concentrate on making the best you can with the cards you've been dealt is the problem, not that your marriage isn't fulfilling. My bank account isn't fulfilling either but I don't go down to the 7-11 and tell Apu to fill a paper bag up with cash.
:lol:
NO ONE is a winner in an affair, there are only big losers and the biggest losers, imo, are the children. That is not a legacy you wish for them to have and believe me, they will find out sooner or later. Children learn behavior from watching their parents and it is statistically proven that children of cheaters have a greater risk of cheating themselves.
I am not judging you, nor do I have a right to. I just have been there and done that and know that it will solve nothing and only create chaos and misery. Be kind to yourself and find a better way.
How long have you been married?A lot of trust and intimacy comes from living though the good times and bad and being there .
To answer the last one, almost 21 years. We've been through lots and I think H is pretty happy right now, but that could be because I'm in my actress mode and trying to convince myself that everything is fine within myself.
Oh, and I didn't feel judged by y'all. :) Thanks for all the insight and advice!
Adrift
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I haven't followed the whole thread but I read this a while back about open relationships: http://www.schooloftantra.com/articles/Polyamory/PolyamoryBlossoms.htm
I wouldn't judge you even if you had one- and certainly not for fantasising about one which is entirely healthy!
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Hey adrift!!!
I think it is great that you shared this with us. I agree with what all of our super-insightful colleagues had to say...
And... I also wanted to add that it's nice that you and your husband are open enough that you can discuss these issues. That shows a lot of trust. Maybe you could turn up the sexiness a notch by sharing the little fantasies with each other???
I guess now that I am older, I just am happy that I have someone I have loved for a long time, and who really loves me. I would hate to add something to our relationship that would take that away.
Of course, I have been having the smuttiest dreams imaginable about old boyfriends and various neighbors since he has been gone over two months now... But, honestly, although I enjoy the ideas, I would never like to make them into a reality.
Thanks for sharing!!!!Love, Beth
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I am a huge fan of Henri J. M. Nouwen a Catholic priest, a writer who also, taught at several theological institutes and universities. I especially love his tiny little book titled, The Inner Voice of Love. A Journey Through Anguish to Freedom. It was written when he was in his early fifties.
Dear Teartracks,
I picked up this book on Amazon.com and received it in the mail today. Have read the first six or so essays. I can tell this book will make a big difference for me. It has given me ideas for concrete exercises I can do for myself. When I read this in the introduction, I knew this was the right book for me:
"Among my many friends, one had been able to touch me in a way I had never been touched before. Our friendship encouraged me to allow myself to be loved and cared for with greater trust and confidence. It was a totally new experience for me, and it brought immense joy and peace....." The interruption of this friendship triggered his coming face to face with his own nothingness. Well, you already know this, but anyway, that is the common thread for me.
Thank you for mentioning this book here. I really think it will be very helpful to me. Maybe others here will be helped similarly.
Pennyplant
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That little book is amazing. I think he tapped into something, love, God, and let it flow.
Pennyplant