Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Gaining Strength on September 13, 2006, 04:52:31 PM
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I ran into a friend at a coffee shop today. She said she had met my father at a neighbors house. By the look on her face I knew something had happened. So I told her that my father has not been functioning well as of late. (No need to try to explain NPD.) And I asked her had something happened. In short, this is what she said.
One of her neighbors had tradgically lost her 47 year old daughter and was receiving mourners. My friend, Liz and my father were among those gathered. My father said to a handful of women - "Go upstairs and get Anne." They said, "She is upstairs in the bathroom." "Well, go upstairs and get her. I waited down here last night for over 20 minutes while she was in the bathroom. I'm not going to wait that long tonight. I need to show her what I have brought." The grown women felt utterly trapped. They were horrified by his demands. The intrusiveness, for him to demand that this mother in mourning, who had retreated upstairs be brought downstairs to acknowledge his "thoughtfulness" is quite horrific to me and was horrific to those who experienced this.
His need to be acknowledged was all he was cognizant of. Nothing else existed, not common decency, not this mother's bereivement - nothing.
This obvious narcissism is actually fairly new in his life. When I was a child he kept that behavior boxed in, available only for us. It is only in the past year or so that it is apparent everywhere. Perhaps because his 2nd wife kicked him out last Sept. he has no place to direct his NPD and so now it goes out to anyone.
Quite frankly, it was something of a relief to hear that someone else has experience that horror that I grew up with. When she shared this with me, I realized that what I had lived was a person, whom I idolized, forcing me to act in inappropriate ways that were humiliating. And this was the person who was supposed to teach me what WAS appropriate. That this grown person, who had no allegiance to him, found herself cowtowing to him, against her preference, against her sense of decency helps me forgive myself for being so controlled by him for so long. It helps me forgive myself for being so confused about how the world works.
I am sorry that she had that experience. I am sorry that that event ever took place. But I am incredibly thankful that Liz shared that with me. I am incredibly thankful for the doors and windows of understanding that have opened.
I do feel hit by a truck - but I also feel relieved. - Gaining Strength
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((((((((((Gaining Strength)))))))))) yes, hit by a truck and yes, relief!!
Reading this literally gave me goosebumps.
It's simply astounding, incomprehensible... the lack of insight an NPD individual can demonstrate.
I am so sorry for this woman's loss of her daughter and this man's imposition upon the grief of that household. Such a demand he made... it surely took them all aback and put them into shock! They've likely never seen anything of the sort in a human being, unless they've encountered another N at some time.
What you've described here is something my brother would do, has done, to varying degrees, throughout his life. But he has never limited this sort of behavior to his nearest and dearest, pretty much letting it fly to anyone and everyone in his path, especially me, when I was near enough to catch it. He's the "star", as he says, and has always required special treatment. I guess he's gotten away with it because he's financially well off and quite intelligent. Most of the people with whom he's surrounded himself have struck me as fakes and users. One example ~ when our grandmother was in her early 90's, he would insist that she take these long treks with him in the car and then, instead of taking his luxury model, he'd decide to pick her up in his old pickup truck and make a real adventure out of it. He couldn't understand why Grandma soon refused to accompany him. Because he seems to have no concept of time and the effects of aging upon the human body, or care for anyone else's wellbeing, he would chide her regularly for her lack of spunk and vitality. It seemed to me that he expected everyone to join in on his denial of reality and be willing to "go along for the ride" at his whim. The more I learn, the more I realize that he is one of the biggest N's I've ever known.
I am so glad your friend Liz shared this with you, GS. Every bit of validation helps. Thank you for sharing it with us.
Love,
Hope
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(((GS)))))
My first thought for you was happiness that your friend shared this with you. It had to be difficult for her to say it (not knowing what your reaction would be). On the other hand, it had to be a such a shocking experience for her that it was overpowering and she had to say it. But the validation--something like this can give you a little step up on that spiral staircase. It can heal a small part of your heart to know that it wasn't your fault that your young self had no way to escape your father's influence.
It was a terrible thing for him to have done and for the women to put up with, but it was a gift that one of them told it to you.
Pennyplant
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Jacmac
I do harbor this secret hope that people would begin to stop responding to this behavior as your friend did above.
I know what you mean, but what is interesting about it to me is how powerful abusers can feel. These people reacted as though he had a gun to his head. The person who told me the story is not a pushover. There is a hostage taking mechanism at play here. I don't quite have that figured out yet but I do think it is important. Something transpired that caused these women who are not under the power of this abuser, to give in to the abuse. It somehow goes to some understanding about why people in relationships with abusers continue to give in - like your friend, like me, like so many we know and read about. I still don't get it - why do people give in to abuse? I don't get it but I see from this story how unbearably controlling that abuse or threat of abuse is.
I am definitely going to spend time thinking about this.
Certain Hope
I read this:
Because he seems to have no concept of time and the effects of aging upon the human body, or care for anyone else's wellbeing, he would chide her regularly for her lack of spunk and vitality.
and am shocked. Why should this shock me any more than my story? I don't know. But each and every one of the stories about narcissists shocks me and I hope will always shock me. These acts are so unbearably evil. That's a harsh word but I believe it. Each time we force another to act in total disregard to their well being it is evil.
Every bit of validation helps.
It really does. Every single bit feeds me - as though I have been starving. Every single bit of validation gives me sustenance and changes me. Alleluia.
pennyplant
It had to be difficult for her to say it. It was a gift that one of them told it to you.
She told me a story about her father. I knew that her father had left her mother with 5 young children, never to look back. Liz told me that he never came to any of their events or parents' nights or birthdays. Once when she was playing soccer she saw her father from a distance on the side lines. Then she looked and saw the name on the jersey of one of her opponents and realized that girl was her father's step daughter. He had come for HER. Liz left that day and never played soccer again.
This story leaves me just numb. Like all of these wretched stories. It breaks my heart to hear them, to tell them. But it does give me validation and if I focus, these stories can fire my determination to overcome the damage, to get on my feet, to heal and to turn the darkness into light. I know I can take the energy from these stories, these experiences and re-channel so that it no longer destroys me but so that it envigorates me. That's what I believe I can do.
Don't you all think we can do that? For ourselves and for each other.
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GS,
When my parents do things like this, I have the bad habit of taking on the embarrassment they SHOULD be feeling. My mother does horrendous things and doesn't even know it sometimes. I think our whole family is always ready to go into embarrassment-mode.
I just can't believe that other people put up with it. I always wonder how they do. Do they not see it for what it is?
Love, Beth
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Gratitude,
I don't get it either. I never have. Now I have a word for it. "Disconnect." It's not my word but it may as well be because when I use it it's like the EASY button, suddenly the craziness gets righted. Just saying that word shifts the focus from ME feeling crazy to me knowing THEY are crazy. I don't know why - but it really helps. - Gaining Strength
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This story leaves me just numb. Like all of these wretched stories. It breaks my heart to hear them, to tell them. But it does give me validation and if I focus, these stories can fire my determination to overcome the damage, to get on my feet, to heal and to turn the darkness into light. I know I can take the energy from these stories, these experiences and re-channel so that it no longer destroys me but so that it envigorates me. That's what I believe I can do.
Don't you all think we can do that? For ourselves and for each other.
Your friend's story breaks my heart too. And I know of other families where this kind of thing goes as well. It hurts the first set of children so very deeply that it colors every moment of the rest of their lives. They never stop feeling hurt by this abandonment and betrayal. They take it on as their fault. When it is really something else entirely. Something N-istic on some level. Guilt is involved in some way on the part of the parents who do this.
When my parents do things like this, I have the bad habit of taking on the embarrassment they SHOULD be feeling. My mother does horrendous things and doesn't even know it sometimes. I think our whole family is always ready to go into embarrassment-mode.
I just can't believe that other people put up with it. I always wonder how they do. Do they not see it for what it is?
Yes, I take on this embarrassment as well. That is the thing that has to stop. Many, many other people do this as well. Maybe because the only alternative many people see is to try to get the other person to stop doing the bad things and that is impossible most of the time. So, then the imagination must leap to what they, the witness, can do. It's hard to know what else to do in the moment, I guess. Look at all the thought it takes here. All the soul-searching. Each person has to be ready for a lot of work in order to do that kind of soul-searching. Maybe some people are more natural with the "disconnect." They "just don't think about it." I know people who deal with difficult things in that way. I, on the other hand, don't have such an easy answer. Just gotta do it my way :? .
Just good insights on this board. It all helps.
Pennyplant
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Dear Gaining Strength:
I'm sorry your dad is an N. It's hard (I watch my kids learning it slowly) to realize your parent is like this. I'm glad, though, that this event, although sad for others, gave you validation.
Something transpired that caused these women who are not under the power of this abuser, to give in to the abuse. It somehow goes to some understanding about why people in relationships with abusers continue to give in - like your friend, like me, like so many we know and read about. I still don't get it - why do people give in to abuse? I don't get it but I see from this story how unbearably controlling that abuse or threat of abuse is.
I think this may be how it works, initially:
People who do treat others with respect and common decency, and who approach others openly with love, are so appalled by the N's demands, that with deer-in-the-headlights eyes and jaws agape.....do what the Nidiot says, because it's not at the tip of our toungues, or at the top of our social vocabulary list to have a quick defense or "what the hell do you think you are doing" reaction at the ready. The behavoir is so far off the charts, in terms of social acceptability, that we are just unprepared for it, really.
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Something about having seen my father through someone else's eyes is getting some part of my shame unstuck. Every now and then I can almost articulate it.
When my father was a child, his cold father figuratively choked the joy and laughter out of him. He never allowed joy around him after that. My father completely identified with his emotionally abusive father. That is some form of Stockholm Syndrome to me. So he never allowed us to be giggly or joyful. Everything was all serious all the time. I'm not sure where I'm headed with this.
All night long I woke up with this sense of being between two conflicting presences or pressures. There was the vague sense of resolving the conflict or of stepping out from between the presences. Today, I had this vague sense of the shame morphing, softening, like candle wax in the sun - as opposed to candle wax melting from bein lit. All of these images are tangible but not fully formed, not fully articulated. I really think I'm moving forward and that this is related to that story about my NPD father. I will just keep at it until it becomes clearer. Feel free to weigh in. OR if you are around push me a little - you are great at that.
GS muddling through
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I found this on www.aconbravehost.com
There are many issues connected with surviving an Nparent. Some of those issues are listed below with a variety of articles, links and recovery tools for support and research. The impact of the N abuse on a child has many repercussions which may include:
PTSD
Feeling voiceless
Suppression of many feelings to accommodate the raging-shaming-blaming of the Nparent which may result in the child of an N not being able to feel safe or permitted to express their anger, grief, sadness, fear or other emotions
Chronic low-grade or clinical depression, which may vary in seriousness from mild melancholy to total paralysis and may have an emphasis in anxiety, sadness or both
Panic attacks
Abandonment depression
Unhealing grief
Obsessive Compulsive Disorder or traits
Self-mutilation, self-cutting
Self-hair-pulling
Pica
Eating disorders such as anorexia, bulimia and obesity
Living in a messy environment
Not maintaining personal hygiene
Isolating
Feeling uncomfortable without dramarama
Attempting to self-medicate for depression or PTSD with other self-destructive habits
Boundary issues
Dependency issues
Co-dependency issues
Repeated relationships with emotional or physical abusers
Obsessing
Compulsivity
Migraines
Emotional and social issues connected with PTSD:
Eating disorders such as anorexia, bulimia and obesity
Addictions to alcohol and/or drugs:
12-step recovery process links and articles
OCD
Deprivation issues and/or deprivation addiction
Needing to detox from years of psychological/emotional/spiritual/physical abuse
Splitting and dissociation
Self-destructive habits such as self-mutilation
Self hair-pulling
Not knowing how to feel emotions in healthy ways: anger, sadness, grieving
Mood swings
Promiscuity
Reactive Borderline Personality disorder traits
Feeling like their meaning in life is to be their Nparent's container
Feeling F.O.G. -fear-obligation-guilt as a continuous state
Abandonment issues
Stockholm Syndrome
never heard of Feeling F.O.G. -fear-obligation-guilt as a continuous state before but that is exactly how I described my aversion to phone and mail for many yearss to my T. This list overwhelms me. I want to go through it slowly. - GS
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I guess I DON'T have a problem. Only 5/6ths of these apply to me :)
I am soooo glad to find out I am normal!!!!
Hee hee.
Love, Beth
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LOL Beth. I can't even look at this list for more than a few seconds without feeling crazy.
your friend - Gaining Strength
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Whew, thank goodness, GS!!~!
Does that mean I can keep avoiding it, too?? :shock:
lol (((((((())))))))
Love,
Hope
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The grown women felt utterly trapped. They were horrified by his demands.
GS, I read this earlier and now curiosity gets the better of me. I have to know!
What did they do? Did they go and get Anne? What did he do next? What did the women do?
People in groups can behave very oddly. i wonder what your friend would have done if your Dad had said it to her only, if she'd been there alone? Maybe he wouldn't have said it to one person? Maybe he needed a big audience to make his demands on? Would your friend have told him to stuff it? I would but then I'm a bit mad. Thank goodness!
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I'm not clear. But I understood Liz to say that "They" went and got her and Liz was among "They". She didn't really focus on the outcome. Her energy was on the demand.
It really helps me as a human understand why I was so trapped by his outrageous demands and how it possible could be that we as a family weren't able to see that there was something terribly, terribly wrong.
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I'm going out on a limb here, feel free to make your own mind up!
Liz tells you about your father's outrageous behaviour but fails to consider her part in the event. She's content to 'blame' your father for both his demands - and the outcome. No. Anyone, any bully, can demand, but nobody has to act on their demands. It takes a very strong person to stand up to a bully like that. Most people are not that strong. Most people are just trying to get by in life and 'not cause a fuss' (that's called fear).
There is nothing that exists as a single unit called a 'family'. It sounds good doesn't it? Family. Nice tight unit. It's an image, a concoction. A 'family' is a group of individuals living together under the same roof. There is no cohesive 'together' unit as such. Each member of the family experiences what happens in their own unique way (this is why siblings remember things so differently).
Each member of your family had their own reasons for tolerating your father. People need money to live. People need some strange things to feel worthwhile (like some people need to feel needed, others need to dominate to feel important, worthy). A family can be one of the most psychologically unhealthy things to be part of.
Congratulations! You survived and you survived well it seems. You have a good brain from what I read and you know how to use it.
You were trapped because you were a defenceless child without any rights. You needed love, approval, validation to thrive to the fullest. I guess you didn't get all these things but you got some, from somewhere, and you survived. Now your life is yours. Now you have rights. You have the right to know the truth and see it realistically.
It takes every member of a family to deny what's really going on. All have their reasons for not being truthful or fearless. It's not easy facing the truth.
You are not responsible for your family's dysfunction: you just happened to be caught in it, by chance, by being born. But you're in control now! (((((((((((((((((((GS))))))))))))))))))
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That's some powerful truth your talking Portia.
It is time for me to take responsibility for my life. I find Voicelessness to be one of the most helpful tools for sorting out these dark places. I am thankful to have heard others' stories and to have feedback to help me sort through and push forward while holding my hand.
My whole life I have longed to have someone to talk with to help sort things out. It is such a basic human need. I am deeply, truly thankful for you and the others who take the time to respond to my endless jottings. I does make a difference and it is helping me and I hope so of my garble helps others as well. - Yours - Gaining Strength
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Hi GS and Portia,
I am not sure I would blame Liz and them for not reacting in a different way to your dad. If that is the first time they encountered this behaviour, I can see how they would not be prepared for it and just kind of go along wth the pressure he was exerting. I am sure that at least some of them, including your friend, had regrets later and wondered what happened and why they did go along, and that your dad was very wrong.
For those of us who have dealt with Ns for years, we are just now figuring out ways, with each other's help, to to avoid getting caught up in the madness. At least something really good came out of it - validation from your friend, and someone who now understands what you are dealing with. That is priceless.
Plucky
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Plucky
I don't blame Liz one iota. I so fully understand. I do think Portia is correct that it is the motivating factor in responding to my father is FEAR. That and some of what Portia said about "family" are what I was referring to as "powerful truth". I can see her points and I see that there are other perspectives on the same situation.
I would not characterize my friends response as, "content to blame". She wasn't content about any aspect. She was jarred and unclear about what had happened and really unclear as to why she had responded against her own instinct and comfort. She was clearly confused and distressed.
I do think that she "chose" to act as she did (corresponding with Portia's comment) but I don't think she knew why she did that, her actions came out of her unconscious and so I do not hold her "responsible." I think she was afraid - but so would I have been. Bullying engenders fear. I agree with Portia that it takes courage to stand up to a bully and I think in some vague way that we are called to act in courage but that is simply not possible in every situation at all times.
How's that for making muddle out of clarity? I think I'm Gaining Strength but my identity is somewhat compromised after this bit of mumbo jumbo.
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No,
it's clear. A very clear analysis. Go ahead and keep getting stronger!
Plucky
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GS
I think she was afraid - but so would I have been.
Do you think you would have acted differently (to the group), given that you know what he is like? I think if we pre-consider these sorts of things, we can be less taken 'off guard' if it happens? Maybe?
Bullying engenders fear. I agree with Portia that it takes courage to stand up to a bully and I think in some vague way that we are called to act in courage but that is simply not possible in every situation at all times.
Agreed, not possible and not necessary either. We have to pick our battles, weigh up the possible consequences of action or inaction and go for whichever, but life will always be messy i think!
Liz sounds very human, sorry I used the 'content' to blame phrase. That was a glimpse of the persecutor P getting her pointy finger out again. Thanks for highlighting it, it's helpful. :) 8)
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Dear Gaining Strength,
How's that for making muddle out of clarity? I think I'm Gaining Strength but my identity is somewhat compromised after this bit of mumbo jumbo
Not at all. Your mind is seeing the bigger picture, receiving the good, and spitting out the sticks. That is fine form indeed and so healthy!
You inspire me, GS. I tend to choke on the sticks.
"See" you tommorrow :)
Love,
Hope
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Portia Guest' reply#16 and my answer #17 followed by Plucky's #18 stayed with me through the night and was heavy on my mind all morning.
Something happened in this dialogue that mirrored experiences in my life that are part of my trappedness. I am on the verge of sorting it out.
During the night it emerged in a dream - I was with some friends in an apartment in NY. There was a world famous rock star with us. I left the group and went to a bathroom just off the kitchen where I was going to fix some food. When I went into the small 1/2 bath and shut the door, (a sliding pocket door), I couldn't secure it. Another rock star, in the same band was in the kitchen and pulled on the door calling me out, to dance. I felt powerless to say no, powerless to secure the door and embarrassed because I couldn't dance.
How does this dream relate to the dialogue in posts 16, 17, & 18? Glad you asked. I saw Portia's points. I had a different perspective, I often do in life, but unconsciouly, I reacted to the strength or "power" of her argument and immediately sublimated my own view. Then Plucky comes along and I realize that I agree with Plucky so I start to backtrack and am lost in my own muddle. Lost until the confusion worked itself out for me.
We cannot ever know what lies behind others' actions. We may not fully know what controls our own. I felt powerless and vulnerable in every move as a child. When I grew up I did not become powerful or less vulnerable simply because I was now responsible for myself. Unfortunately I am still powerless and vulnerable - that is part of my neurosis. But I am working with great determination to grow and overcome the past.
Thanks Portia, Plucky and Certain Hope. Thanks for helping me sort through this.
I have learned through this process that I can see where I should be. For example, I should be in a place where I operate out of power rather than shame. If I require of myself that I am no longer shamed, just be sheer determination then I have moved into powerfulness by denial not in any real terms. And then I have to defend this position with walls of steel. But it is not real power - it is false power build on a foundation of shame. The only way for me to develop real power is to excavate the shame. But society does not allow for an adult to deal with childish issues. Society demands that adults function responsibly as adults - even if the necessary resources aren't there. I am speaking of psychological resources but it could be others as well. This is reminecent of debtors jail. How do you repay your debt if you are in jail not working to earn money. How can we take on psychological health if we have not had a nurturing, supportive enviroment to develop in? I haven't been able to and I haven't had that environment until I found this place. I feel bad about this. I hate being at an infantile level psychologically. But I understand that I must go through the entire process of becoming whole that was denied me in my FOO.
When I hear "powerful truths" that are legitimate and reasonable views but that don't jive with my experience or my perspective I hope I will be able to hold my own understanding in the future. I was absolutely not allowed to discent in my FOO. I am finding myself revisiting the traps from my childhood, going back in time psychologically. It's like a mind warp, a strange but therapeutic experience. Thanks again you three for giving me the opportunity to travel this journey.
GS
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(((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((GS))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
BEING WHERE EVER YOU ARE IS GOOD .
Taking the should out and being with the feelings you have and feeling each one is healing.
I like what Portia said about "scary" only being a feeling and feelings never hurt anyone. :D
Kinda cool I know I will let myself feel whatever feelings I have come but yet understanding the behaviors of bully's can
give you the power to handle that situation.
This is all a process and Portia's reply #16 was most helpful for me.GS this is a process and you also have power and choices.
Every day is new full of what ever you wish to fill it with.Blaming self is something I have done for years.
When I understood I was not responsible for my family's dysfunction and that they must have layer's of guilt OF THEIR own.
I removed their "ick" from me and now I can see what I am responsible for in my life.
I have taken many steps to make that right in my life.
But first I had to see I was taking on guilt and responsibility for what was not mine.
It takes as long as it takes .No pressure for healing there is no time thing connected with healing.
I just keep remembering one of the last things my mom said to me
moon only you can make your life good.
I understand now and it took years to understand this.
Also in #16 I can see blaming anyone for how I feel takes my power away my choices away.
MoonLight
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Sweet moon - thank you for those hugs.
I am remembering how my brothers and I were not allowed to express our own opinions. If something we said was not in line with his view we were met with a quiet, steel jawed rage and forced to recant. This has actually never stopped. Still today I will not offer a view that he will disagree with. The cost is far too great.
I have paid a huge price in my life for having to hide my point of view, my self expression. In college I often heard, "Be yourself." and had absolutely no idea what that could possibly mean. Now I know why. "Being myself" had been emotionally beaten out of me.
When I was 30 and going through a divorce, I recall realizing that while eating dinner my hands were gripped in fists and my right leg was wrapped twice aroung my left in great tension. Immediately I was transported back to my childhood dinner table where the tension and fear were unbearable. Every night, the same thing - my father would ask, "What did you do today." and my panic would begin because whatever I focused on his answer would be, "That's not the answer I'm looking for." And I would try again. Each time he would respond angrier and angrier, "That's not good enough." or "That's not what I want to hear." I would expect some sort of punishment would follow. Sometimes it did, sometimes it didn't. Either way I was so thankful when it was time to go upstairs to my room, alone. (Alone, isolation - that was safety.) The tension and the fear were established early on. There was no way possible to meet any of his expectations. The expectations were never clearly expressed. But my father was held with esteem in the community. That, and his narcissistic self-importance, established in me a sense of him as all knowing and perfect. Consewuaently, if something were out of kilter it would not be due to him but clearly the problem had to be me. So I never saw the treatment I received as misguided or abusive. Even today, neither of my brothers would call our experiences abuse and they would both deny my description as well as my memories. Their denial kept me stuck for many years.
All of this is coming up now because all of this is what has led to this paralysis. The more that comes up and the more that is validated the further along in this healing I will progress. I do feel that I have written more than my share and I am uncomfortable about it, but I also see that at long last I am able to pour out what has been stuffed for so long. And I am thankful for this place.
I find solace here. The mechanism of an internet forum is very therapeutic. I can "dump" without dumping on an individual. Anyone in a position to help can offer help, others who are not interested or feel burdened can find the threads that feed them. I am thankful to be able to "dump" without burdening. In the real world dumping has burnt out friendships - I understand. That's why I am uncomfortable about writing so much.
During the worst periods of clinical depression, I would wake every day and test my being to see how heavy the burden was. I could "feel" the depression. It was a physical weight. If it was light enough to get out of bed I was very, very thankful. Even as it lifted, I could be driving down the street and suddenly out of nowhere be hit by that wretched depression again. When that happened I had to repeat a positive phrase over and over and over again until I could manage again. I suspect this is familiar to people who have panic attacks. Today I do that with shame. Each morning I have to first see how heavy the shame is before I get out of bed. Then all day, every day I have to fight shame. I fight the physiological feelings of shame - the gripping tension in my back and neck, the queasy, nauseous feeling.
So while I think I understand what Moonlight and Portia mean about "feelings never hurt anyone." That is not true for me. In recent years, I learned that I could and how to stop a negative feeling before it took over me. I have to fight it with all my might. Negative feelings do hurt me. They effect my brain and I have to fight them. I have to fight for my brain's health and my psychological health. I do believe that feelings can be false. I learned that in one of my favorite books, "The Mind & The Brain" by Jeffrey Schwartz, M.D. When I recognize these dark feelings, I call them false and then immediately replace them with something positive.
Well thanks for listening. I have been spending so much time here lately because it is a sanctuary for me. A sanctuary where I am safe to expose my most vulnerable self while I change the bandages. As I have opened up some of my wounds I am finding infections that must be treated. I am glad to have found good medicine here to help me mend. - Yours, Gaining Strength
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GS ,
Feelings can hurt .
When my twin brother passed away at 27 and I said goodbye to him It hurt a great deal.Grief from sudden passing hurts.
But they were my feelings .I do not blame others now for my feelings .My feelings are created within myself by me.
Also in my FOO I was listened to by my mom she had a great and good positive influence on me that influence greatly helped to counter the negative stuff I encountered.
And knowing that makes healing easier for me.Just an opinion .
I am hoping the heaviness or the burden of pain is less for you
and though the process every day it becomes lighter and lighter.
Much love to you
moon
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I am hoping the heaviness or the burden of pain is less for you
and though the process every day it becomes lighter and lighter.
Sweet Moon - thank you as always. Your optomism is so refreshing.
your friend - Gaining Strength
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That's why I am uncomfortable about writing so much.
Hello GS,
please don't stop writing. Some people have a hard time writing about themselves, and they (ok, I) get help by reading a similar experience or thought or feeling and realising that they feel the same. By writing, however prolifically you want to, you are helping others and, I hope, yourself.
We also enjoy getting to know you and seeing you evolve.
Plucky
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Gaining Strength,
I L O V E your writing. I L O V E your wisdom. I L O V E your understanding ways. I L O V E it that you are overcoming. Please don't stop. I know each of us waxes and wains in our jparticipation, but each one is so important. You are very much appreciated.
teartracks
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Dear Gaining Strength,
You wrote: Portia Guest' reply#16 and my answer #17 followed by Plucky's #18 stayed with me through the night and was heavy on my mind all morning.
Something happened in this dialogue that mirrored experiences in my life that are part of my trappedness.
And mine, as well. Right now, in fact... I do understand what you're describing and I've been in that position, not even knowing what was happening or why it felt so wrong, why I felt so out of sync and ...repressed. I could not express it as you have here and I don't know whether I can even now. I only know that my heart sank as I read through this, my spirit cried out, and I had a sensation of being driven off the main highway onto a rutted sidetrack, unable to hang onto the wheel and maintain a straight course. But still, the only words which came to my mind were: There is a way which seems right to a man, but its end is the way of death.
GS, I do not believe that we can "will" ourselves to shame-free health. I believe that true healing is a gift, like forgiveness, which we may only receive with open, empty hands. This is the basis of my own determination to empty my hands of anything which would fill them with useless, vain nothing-ness. I do believe in sanctuary, but we make a place safe for ourselves with fortifications; necessary safeguards, because not all of the infection is internal. You are sweeping your inner house clean and goodness & light aren't the only forces seeking to fill the vacuum. You have made a giant leap here, imo, GS... you have chosen to trust yourself and your "instincts", the leading of the Spirit, whatever you choose to call it. The way I read you, you've taken a stand... in humility and strength, which is true meekness. It's a beautiful thing. I hope that you will write on!
Love,
Hope
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Hope - I am reading and thinking and going to spend some more time with this. I'm going to think some more before I write. Thanks - GS
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(((((((((Gaining Strength))))))))) Thank you. If a response isn't warranted, that's fine, too. To me, it's the tip of an iceberg, size unknown. I'll be thinking along with you and maybe in the light of a new day, the matter will be more clear, but all things in their due season.
Much love,
Hope
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Morning, GS, my friend:
My day ahead is much brighter because of you. I am still functioning better since your understanding helped me get to a breakthrough moment.
I have paid a huge price in my life for having to hide my point of view, my self expression.
I was wondering if this might be one explanation for the untidiness, paralysis about clearing/cleaning space? If you did a square foot, and another, etc....you would uncover clear space. And then...that would invite you to express your point of view, your pleasure in a poster, some art, a choice of paint for the wall, etc.
?????
Hugs,
Hops
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There is a hostage taking mechanism at play here. I don't quite have that figured out yet but I do think it is important. Something transpired that caused these women who are not under the power of this abuser, to give in to the abuse. It somehow goes to some understanding about why people in relationships with abusers continue to give in - like your friend, like me, like so many we know and read about. I still don't get it - why do people give in to abuse? I don't get it but I see from this story how unbearably controlling that abuse or threat of abuse is.
Hi GS,
I am so very sorry your father did not father you. :(
I have thought about the "something transpired" and I know it's an oversimplification (especially as the big N in my own life is my mother)...but I believe with every fading watt in my brain bulb that:
THIS CULURE STILL TELLS WOMEN TO SUBMIT TO MEN'S REQUESTS, ORDERS, DOMINATION AND INITMIDATION. (Invasion, too, which is why I think you were in a bathroom in your dream.)
Even when our inner voices protest (hence the disorienting uncomfortable feelings) ... this programming is on most billboards, magazine covers, TV shows...it is EVERYWHERE. So pervasive that it astonishes me when people even pull their heads out of the haze enough to acknowledge that we are so far from finished with the liberation of women's spirits. And men's too, from their great burden.
(Caveat: those who know me know I hope...I don't do man-bashing. I just feel great grief for a twisting of our humanity over many generations that has led to such distortion of who we all could be.)
God bless good fathers everywhere. Including my departed own. (((((((((Dad))))))))
Hops
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Hops,
Did something happen lately to make you especially angry about women/men in society? It seems that you are bringing up the idea often of women being placed on a lower scale. Why is this bothering you this week????
Love, Beth
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hi GS,
I just want to say that I love reading what you are writing. It is very calming to me, as I can see the similarities in our experiences. Also, to see that you're sorting through feelings, and finding your truth. Thank you for sharing. Just because I don't always respond here, doesn't mean you're not having some impact on me. :)
hugs,
p bean
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Dear GS
When I hear "powerful truths" that are legitimate and reasonable views but that don't jive with my experience or my perspective I hope I will be able to hold my own understanding in the future. I was absolutely not allowed to discent in my FOO.
I’m just finding my own beliefs and values and in finding them and having them questioned by others, they change too, get refined, every day.
How did I start finding my own values and voicing them? By rubbing up against others here (and only here, to be honest, talking to my radio doesn’t really count because there’s no feedback…) and finding a way to discuss without getting into huge ‘conflicts’, or without feeling shamed and silenced.
That confusion you said you felt…..I wonder what caused it. Maybe I sounded like your Dad for a moment back there, somehow, laying down the law, saying ‘this is how it is’? And while you had your own perspective, something was ‘attractive’ to you in nodding to ‘powerful’ words? This may not apply to you, but it sure has applied to me here. I like a ‘strong’ writer, an opinionated post. Sometimes the opinions voiced have entered me like a wave (me taking them in willingly); sometimes I’ve riled against them with such vigour that I can only be reacting to my FOO members. I still do it.
Does the act of writing help you a lot? I find that if I try and just *think* about what’s been said here sometimes, I can’t fathom out a conclusion for me – I have to write it here and see if I agree with myself….see how it looks on the board…does that make sense?
Please keep posting as you want to. Please keep using your eloquent voice. Discent and disagreement positively welcome I think, without it how do we grow? My opinion only, others do disagree on that I think (thank goodness :)). (((((GS)))))
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Hi Beth,
I think it's peaking again for two reasons: one because it's real and deep and distresses me always to see the blind behavior of the culture and how it devalues all of us as whole human beings, and in the way I can relate to most, how it particularly devalues women. The role models for girls in the media have gotten worse (Madonna, Britney, Paris) although professionally, things are better.
The second reason is that I work in the same southern university (public-funded, state) from which I was once rejected as a student because they got away without admitting women undergraduates until the 1970s. Black men were admitted slightly earlier. (I began college in the late 60s). Anyway, working in that very same environment, reporting to a professor my own age who uses and manipulates female staff in a manner I consider ruthless (with no consequences)...has been demoralizing. Sure, there has been some change. At lower professional levels, women are now everywhere. But the top admnistration is overwhelmingly male, white, and wealthy. I think many of their class and sexual assumptions are played out in the way jobs beneath them throughout the system are structured and conducted.
My position is being eliminated for my boss' convenience, basically. But he's getting his last penny 'orth out of me.
It's not his gender that makes him this way. I've had competitive mean-spirited female bosses too (fewer, to tell the truth). But he does operate in an aura of privilege and superiority. He actually told a colleague that "you shouldn't really get friendly with the staff." My colleague, who's very sensitive to class issues, thought that was a shabby thing to say.
I also feel sad that many people seem to overlook that on average in this country, women still earn 70 cents to the male dollar, and often for the same type of work. My daughter's generation seems to feel it's not going to be an issue for them, but they're so young. When they are older, and find ageism piling on top of sexism, I feel very sad for the shock of that awakening that awaits them.
So it's a mixture of general and personal reasons. It is more grief than anger, for me. I think we're pretty numb to it, overall.
Thanks for asking, Beth. Don't know if that rings any chimes for anyone, but I think it's almost like creepoing air pollution. You live amid a busy culture that is putting out messages and begin to cough before you realize that you're breathing smog...but then, there's shopping and TV to distract you.
I'm glad to be able to pour some of it out on the board.
Hops
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Hi Hops
Don't know if that rings any chimes for anyone
Yes, loads. Interesting, I earned 74% of what the previous incumbant (male) earned in my last job. I accepted it. My H said "refuse the promotion. Tell him you won't do the job without the salary." Good advice to think about. I didn't think about it. I carried on fetching and carrying and wiping up mess. I contributed to the culture in bucket-loads.
The culture is the way it is and it's far from perfect (but a whole lot better than many!). At least I can get a mortgage now on my own and own property in my name (big cheers) and I can vote! I have so much freedom, compared to....I value my freedoms hugely.
Hops have you written for alternative women's mags? Or found one that you liked, maybe online? This one for example http://www.happywomanmagazine.com/ is not to my taste (it calls itself parody satire) but I don't know what's out there? Just thinking you have a good voice, lots to say and some people want to hear it! If not out there, well here too :D
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I've been away for a few days - processing and busy. What wonderful postings I find today in this thread.
Last week deep stirrings within me just pour out - it felt like an infection working it's way to the surface, like a boil coming to a head. This week I am further along, in a different place just slightly further along to continuum toward functioning. The shame has shifted and today it is specifically "condemnation." I cannot yet tell if condemnation is a synonym for shame or is a segment of shame. It is very uncomfortable but I am willing to process this as I have been processing the shame.
Thank you Plucky and teartracks and Certain Hope and Hopalong and jacmac and Penelope and Portia for you kind encouragements. Your words are so much more than mere letters on a board. They truly feed me, truly encouragement, truly give life. I see that I am coming into my own life, as though the tunnel I am in is the birth cannal. I am surprised that it is so painful. Here I am trying to race a marathon and I haven't even been born yet. I will have to slow down.
Certain Hope
GS, I do not believe that we can "will" ourselves to shame-free health. I believe that true healing is a gift, like forgiveness, which we may only receive with open, empty hands. This is the basis of my own determination to empty my hands of anything which would fill them with useless, vain nothing-ness. I do believe in sanctuary, but we make a place safe for ourselves with fortifications; necessary safeguards, because not all of the infection is internal. You are sweeping your inner house clean and goodness & light aren't the only forces seeking to fill the vacuum. You have made a giant leap here, imo, GS... you have chosen to trust yourself and your "instincts", the leading of the Spirit, whatever you choose to call it. The way I read you, you've taken a stand... in humility and strength, which is true meekness.
I am convinced that I cannot "will" myself whole. I have tried. It was like pushing the accelerator harder and harder while my wheel dug deeper and deeper into the mud. The "healing as gift", "empty[ing]," and "fortifications" which you write about are wonderful concepts. I love the set of verses about putting on Christ's armor. I am going to take your thoughts with me onthis journey. "Healing as gift," "empty[ing]," and "fortifications."
I actually see "fortification" as the concept that goes to why people subject theemselves to abuse. We do it because we have not developed enough fortification, whether that is because we are children and that fortification must be supplied for us or we have strayed outside the fortifications available to us knowingly or unknowingly or for what ever. Growing up - we were to be protected and nurtured. That nurturing includes showing us how to identify and surround ourselves with the fortifications that will allow us to thrive. Thank you Certain Hope - this is a very pregnant concept that calls for so much development.
Hopalong,
Quote
I have paid a huge price in my life for having to hide my point of view, my self expression.
I was wondering if this might be one explanation for the untidiness, paralysis about clearing/cleaning space? If you did a square foot, and another, etc....you would uncover clear space. And then...that would invite you to express your point of view, your pleasure in a poster, some art, a choice of paint for the wall, etc.
I think you have expressed something very meaningful for me. You are tapping into an aspect that highlights the mechanism that holds the key, an aspect that keeps me stuck. I also came to see, last week, that this untidiness (boy is that an understatement) is an outward expression of the inner shame. That shame just grew and grew and grew until I could not contain it anymore and it has continued to grow outward, like a tumor, demanding that I see it, demanding that I address it. Well I see it now. I know what it is and where it came from. One of the steps in addressing it will be to let go of the responsibility for generating the shame in the first place. I have certainly done things that have fed it but part of the healing is for me to relinquish the responsibility, that I have held for so long, for its origin. Only when I let that go - it did not, does not belong to me. When I let that go, then I can pick up the responsibility for addressing it.
Back to your words Hopalong that would invite you to express your point of view
These gentle words point me to a frightening place. This is what chains me, this is where I learned these maladaptive behaviors in order to save my life and now - you so kindly point out to me - I must let go of these maladaptive behaviors in order to live. And addressing this is bringing up the inordinate fears that I suppressed as a child. How astonishing it is that the very act of cleaning up my home can send me into fear for my life - but that is what it is. Had I "express[ed] your [my] point of view" I would have risk my life, my psychological well being, my privilege of enjoying and partaking of the luxury afforded my as a child of my privileges family. I would not have known how to "be" otherwise. I see that be NOT expressing my point of view that I have walked the roads into a living hell and yet the fear that belonged to that child who could see no survival beyond sublimating her view, her desires is as real today as it was then.
Thanks Hopalong - you have shown your light on that shackle. I do have the tools to cut myself free from this one now that you have illuminated it. First, I know that fear is false today - not false then - but false today and as I seek to address it I will continue to name it false. thanks. I'll let you know how it goes. I ain't exactly intrepid so it may take some time to build up the courage to start cutting that chain but I do see my work before me. Thank you.
jacmac
Your analysis of "nurturing', "securing", and "dancing" are very profound. They definitely fit comfortably. The whole isue of "dance" and the context you frame it in are too complex for me to take in and process immediately. I thank you for this"dance" concept. I am interested to spend time delving into "who" plays the role of rescuer, abuser and victim. I am interested in learning which parts of me play each of those roles and who else plays those roles in my life. Thank you for this complex image. I will enjoy unraveling it.
Hopalong
THIS CUTLURE STILL TELLS WOMEN TO SUBMIT TO MEN'S REQUESTS, ORDERS, DOMINATION AND INITMIDATION. (Invasion, too, which is why I think you were in a bathroom in your dream.)
Even when our inner voices protest.
"Women's ways of knowing" comes to mind when I read what you wrote. Women's ways of knowing has been sublimated in favor of the power of money which has, culturally, belonged to men. Tragically, it is the balance of the two that gives true power and true vitality. Knowledge is also power. I am truly oversimplifying for the sake of brevity but for sometime men held the power of thee purse and out of fear of the power of women's knowing choked out that vitality out of fear. Everyone loses. In my father's family history the eveidence of this is strikingly clear in the stories recounted by my father and his first cousins - about their paternal grandfather, his powerful wife and his extraordinary mother. Part of the result of my father's lineage of strong women was misogynistic men in denial of their misogyny. How's that for convoluted. Power with fear is corrupting. Power with confidence and compassion is life giving. Power with fear is not in short supply in either gender.
(Invasion, too, which is why I think you were in a bathroom in your dream.)
That's an interesting take. I can see that. The bathroom is a place of privacy, where disrobing and vulerability is revealed. In the wild some predatory animals track their prey via their defecation. My foundling sheepdog hides his poop. In 9 years I have rarely seen evidence of his packages. So I can see the bathroom as a symbol of vulnerability or a threat from power.
Portia
That confusion you said you felt…..I wonder what caused it. Maybe I sounded like your Dad for a moment back there,
This is what I was trying to describe in that response that began Portia #16, me #17 etc.
Does the act of writing help you a lot? I find that if I try and just *think* about what’s been said here sometimes, I can’t fathom out a conclusion for me – I have to write it here and see if I agree with myself….see how it looks on the board…does that make sense?
It really does help me. But not just writing - writing here, where others are writing and reading and most significantly, understanding.
It's nice to have this place. I see the day coming when I will be able to work again. I am really becoming ready, really longing to go out and have a clear purpose each and every day, a clear structure beyond healing. When I no longer have the luxury of writing here for a couple of hours.
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Dear Gaining Strength,
Although progress may seem painfully slow to you, to me you are very clearly on a straight and steady course. I am so thrilled for you and only wish you could see yourself from my perspective. I think you are amazing.
Love,
Hope
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Certain Hope,
Thanks so much for your perspective - it is very encouraging. - GS
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Hi Portia,
Thanks for your suggestion about the alternative women's mags...that's preaching to the choir, but I appreciate it.
I'm pretty demoralized right now and barely have the energy to do the intense mental focus on the editing (an increasing load) my boss is piling on me to get every scrap of my effort before he boots me out (with the excuse of funding...while he grooms a bright 23-y/o to take my place)...
But I hope to write for joy again one day.
Hops
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Hopsy,
You're a short-timer now. That means you can slack off. Don't do any more work than you usually do. Who does he think he's kidding? The "new girl" can just dig right in once she starts. She can do whatever you leave unfinished. It will be a learning experience for her. In the long run, how much or how little you do in the next couple weeks won't matter. So, be good to you for once. Believe me, I have seen for myself how it is. Nobody except you expects you to give 110% until the bitter end.
Just my two cents.
Pennyplant
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Thanks, PP...
trouble is, he holds the power to do a good or a negative reference, and I'm seeking another job in the same institution.
He knows it, too. So that's one reason it's a tough last mile.
I have taken the last two days to nurse back pain, it's better, I slept all day and will work all night since I have a 7:30 a.m. meeting...and will take a completed project in with me.
I'll be okay. Thank you for the support...I know my fear of him really represents my fear of a decision he's already made...to end my job.
So I have to do a lot of overwhelming things and make huge decisions (medical, legal, early retirement, unemployment, don't even know for sure) in the next few weeks, but I'll make it!!!
thanks again,
Hops
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I wondered if he would have power over your future. Then I guess there is nothing left but to get through it. I hope he gets his someday.
PP
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Hi Hoppy,
It is so appropriate that this is on the N father thread, don't you think! That evil boss is like a big bad daddy holding the whip over your head to extract the last drop of your energy before kicking you to the waste heap. Is that how it feels?
If you are in the US, don't companies shy away from giving bad references? Doesn't your work speak for itself? Is there anyone else who will speak up for you?
Are you giving this oppressor more power than he has? Are you making it easier for him? Why don't you try to be a bad slave for once, and hit the master back! Slow down! Set the plantation on fire!
Can you get the reference letter right now and then slack off completely? Can you sabotage the work so he at least has a week of pure hell way after you're gone? Can you just think of some way to strike back! Please!
Plucky
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Hops
I wish jacmac would weigh in here. She has such a good sense about how to deal with abusive superiors - and yours is abusive. You can't work when you are in extreme pain. His demands do not negate your needs.
I hold you dear in my heart during this trial. Your Dear Friend - Gaining Strength
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How nice of you to come jacmac. It feels so comforting to say, "I wish jacmac were here" and then you appear. I'm tired - emotionally drained but hope is growing. Going to sleep. Hate to close the door on my dear, dear new friends. I am so thankful - what an incredible miracle to find you wonderful people. This is how I know life will be ok. You are all proof of that. Hope to see you all tomorrow. My dreams and prayers are with each and every one of us.
Much love, Gaining Strength.
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(((((((((((((((((((((((((((((hops))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
I so empathise. All of my bosses before this one were like something out of "Cable Guy." And I had this stupid loyalty and fear of shirking what I thought was being responsible. Take care of yourself and keep putting one foot in front of the other until you get to the other side... Love, Beth
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Plucky,
You nailed it...how it feels. It's 4 a.m. and I'm feeling some relief because I just completed the current task (my back's better after 2 days in bed). The obstacle to blowing off his reference is that I work for a state institution so all reference procedures are written and formalized and everyone has them. But I'll be okay. He seems to have a guilty-conscience channel along with the others, or maybe it's an N thing, but he may make some kindly gestures as he boots me out. I have done excellent work and he knows that. And I will survive this!
Jac,
Thanks for the faith and the wonderful imagery! I will mentally send him a fired-up Jac to tell him off, that's a delightful thought...and I appreciate your infusion of faith, too. (It is contagious to me even if our vocabulary for it's different.) I really appreciate it.
GS,
Thanks for fetching Jac to help...and very sweet dreams to you.
Night (morning!), and gratefulness...
Hops
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Hoppy,
you are impossible! Don't you have a mean bone in your whole body? Don't you have a wellspring of anger to tap into? Can't you just be bad, a little bit, for once?
Plucky
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(I forgot to thank you too, Beth, for your loving support. Sorry, I was nodding off!)
Pllucky, it might be genetic. My Dad was a deeply good-natured person. I'm nowhere near as nice as he is, but he was my model for feeling. He was affectionate, funny, modest, self-effacing, brilliant, loyal, gentle. (And a little OCD-ish when there were tensions in the family. He loved to cook but would dice things into perfect cubes. He was a cartographer, so precision was everything!)
I do feel anger now and then but more often some sub-anger, such as resentment (like of boss) or envy (I was jealous of my D's fancy car). When I feel real outrage it's really my gut response to sexism, racism, homopobia, those kinds of things. Not the "ism" but the behaviors (most of which I think are emotional abuse). All the put-downs and second-class messages I was raised with and that the culture is steeped in...aimed at so many people. I HEAR them. I always notice. Those things do make me feel angry.
But with individuals, I can't keep anger for long. I'm not constructed for grudges. They're very tiring. I think to stay mad takes a great deal of energy and I'd just rather be friendly.
((((((((Plucky))))))))) you make me feel very appreciated.
Hops