Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: pennyplant on September 20, 2006, 05:36:47 PM
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Oh, just thinking about starting this thread activates a couple more old tapes that play in my head. I'm feeling that pressure in me, a reluctance to start, that tells me I'm working on something crucial. So, here goes.....
Many of the members have shared their feelings here, past and present, about their own promiscuity and how it relates to voicelessness. I have read these posts with a great deal of interest because for me that was the path not taken. Most likely because that was one of the symptoms of voicelessness that my sister grabbed before I could grab it for myself!
In real life, people often tell me about their past. Most people, it seems, have a past. One time, a co-worker was talking about how she flirts with just about every man who is living and I told her I didn't understand how she could do that. And she said, "Well, you know how it is. You sleep with a guy you don't really like, and the next day you wake up and say to yourself, 'What was I thinking?'" And I said, "Yeah, I know what you mean." Then I realized what I had done, just agreed with her because I could imagine what that might be like. So I amended it and laughed and said, "Did you hear what I just said? I answered you like I had actually done that before!" She just kind of looked at me while I laughed about that. I don't know if she thought I was mocking her or not. She's the type to forget about things right away, though. So, I didn't dwell on her possible reaction for more than a moment. Instead, I went ahead and played my old tape to myself, "Nobody else ever wanted me anyway."
Now, as far as I knew, until just recently, it was quite true. Besides my husband and one boy in high school who asked me out twice, nobody else ever wanted me. All the evidence pointed to this explanation for why I never had a boyfriend of any kind until I was 17. And I am married to him. And I have never successfully cheated either, even though I tried to twice. Promiscuity gone terribly wrong. The story of my life.
And yes, I have read all your stories about this subject and I understand them in my brain. It is in my heart that I have the problem. I do understand what you are talking about when you mention shame, and that maybe it wasn't real love or real connection in many of these situations. I understand the pain that choosing the wrong person has caused in your lives and your children's lives. I understand that I may have avoided some tragic situations. Seeing it, understanding the logic of it is one thing. What is happening when I'm reading your stories, which causes me to not take them in all the way, is this: When I read the story, my first thought is, "At least somebody wanted you." My second thought is, "You are normal and have learned things about yourself, others, and relationships in the ways that other normal people do. You opened yourself up. You are a real person. I am not."
I think I understand Pinocchio better than I should.
A few years ago, a co-worker who was attracted to me, said,"Come on, Pennyplant, you must have a couple of skeletons in your closet, before your husband took you out of circulation. Come on!" I hated to disappoint him. So I said, "Well, maybe a couple, but I guess I'll leave them in the closet for you to imagine." But in reality, I just had a couple of not so interesting brushes with being human when I was 17 and that was about it.
I guess it is my mother who put the tape in there. "I had lots of boyfriends when I was your age (11), I wonder what is wrong with you."
Well, I wonder too. It is not normal to be so off-putting that not even some clueless guy throws himself at you.
Once in awhile a guy would call me when I was young. Not very often. And it never became anything. It was never a guy I was attracted to. I suppose most girls are willing to go on a date with a boy who is just a friend, just to have a date. That never even occurred to me. I wouldn't have known what to say or how to act and I would not have wanted to hurt someone's feelings. Though I bet I did hurt some feelings by my reactions to a couple of these boys who maybe were testing the waters. Or maybe they just wanted to be friends.
I do think that a major way of valuing women is by judging how attractive they are to men. It is only recently that I have learned men are attracted to me. The previous 40 years were something of a drought. My husband and my best friend tell me that if I wasn't married, there would be no questions about it. But I am married and always will be. So, I have to answer that question myself.
It comes back to the "Nobody else ever wanted me" tape. I told myself that. Well, mom did too. But that doesn't count. I have told myself that hundreds and hundreds of times. I compare myself, too:
Why does he want her--she's not slim and attractive?
How did she get so and so to do that for her, it's not like she's really going to sleep with him?
How come he liked me for awhile then forgot me?
This is somewhat related--in high school it came down to me through the grapevine that the popular kids were wondering why I wasn't popular. I seemed like I should be, but I wasn't. Why not?
When am I going to graduate high school in my heart? When will I be a real person? Maybe when I get that tape out of my head.
Today I thought for the first time, and really contemplated it, that maybe it wasn't that nobody wanted me. Maybe it was some other reason that caused things to work out the way they did. And not even the all purpose reason: "everything always turns out for the best." I know that I have a good life. I want to be satisfied with my life. What will settle this for me has to be some kind of real explanation for what happened and why it happened and that maybe it wasn't about me being unworthy.
I mean, men notice me now. And I'm not so different from the way I always looked and acted.
My sons have each had many girlfriends and friends. So, I can give birth to normal humans.
I think I was afraid to be open before. With good reason. So, people, guys, sensed that they should give me my distance. Perhaps they were afraid I would reject them. I really don't know. Does that seem like I'm anywhere near on the right track?
Pennyplant
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I knew you had a unique beauty that high school louts wouldn't get, PP. Just knew it, and it's more than your wonderful hair. I think in your maturity, men are seeing YOU now, PP...of course they notice! And of course you were worthy of it back then too. Maybe Mud can help, but I really do think HS boys operate by a very different appreciation formula than adult men do...
I don't know the formula but I can say this, which won't necessarily clear up any confusion:
when I was young I was fairly beautiful according to conventional standards and was asked to model for photographers and artists. I had plenty of male interest but much of that because I was also a manic extrovert who practically DEMANDED it.
My features are the same and I'm pretty shapely for an older bat. But now I don't think looks mean as much and I'm carrying my baggage covered with its travel stickers and although I might be considered pretty by some who are punching their what's-pretty punchcards, I get flirted with by married men, have close male friends.................and haven't been asked out on a date in absolute ages.
I think I have completely stopped flirting. So I don't get romantic-sexual signals at all.
YOU BET YOU WERE WORTHY. And it sure would have confused me to have a competitive mother boast about the numbers of her boyfriends if I was a young girl who didn't fit the magazine-mayonnaise mold.
You ain't mayonnaise, PP. You are truffle sauce.
love,
Hops
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Hi PP,
just a quickie here, no, not THAT kind of quickie! Get your mind out of the gutter!....
Let's reframe this.
1. " Nobody wanted to use me". Because let's face it. That's what it frequently is. Scratching the itch.
2. Any 11 year old who has lots of boyfriends - what does that mean? If I had a D and she was 11 and she had 'lots of bf' I would sure make sure what exactly that meant! In the kindergarten sense, or in the Taxi Driver sense?
3. Even Pinnochio learnt to say no when he became real. You must have been real from the getgo.
Plucky
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men notice me now. And I'm not so different from the way I always looked and acted.
I think we give off subtle signals though- if we're really feeling unworthy then other people pick up on if not that exactly the fact we have some unresolved emotion which is holding us back.
I don't think it's a bad thing you haven't had tons of failed relationships though!
Because that's what they would have been, if you weren't ready.
I have a friend who's a bit mixed up right now and she said it's alright for me, I've been married! I pointed out we've had years of unhappiness and problems ( which she knows anyway ) and I am divorcing, she said yes but at least you did something! Er yes, I was so afraid of being on my own and didn't know I could be working on myself & loads of other exciting stuff so I hurled myself headlong into a difficult relationship then it took me until until middle age to extricate myself...you get the picture!
Most people, it seems, have a past
but not always one you want to use as a role model!
it sure would have confused me to have a competitive mother boast about the numbers of her boyfriends
G_d save us from parents who don't grow up even when they have kids of their own.
That's what it frequently is. Scratching the itch.
I love this.
It's so true- just having sex or a fling when you really want connection and commitment is lonelier than being alone.
it wasn't that nobody wanted me.
I know, that's such faulty reasoning isn't it, like the store ran out of ice cream, someone in purchasing must really hate me...
We learn these assumptions young though.
It has been hard for me to take anything which triggers rejection because of my very early childhood, but I am learning that the world doesn't watch my every move like I do, and mostly people are just not noticing rather than avoiding me etc.
A friend said to me ages ago when I complained that no one cares: it just feels that way because you're needing someone to, other people just aren't on your timeframe or your wavelength right now. You're waiting for each comfort but if you were happy and busy you'd think your life was full of people who are interested in you with the same level of input, because right now you're not getting the things you need... ( I can add- or think I need )
I think I was afraid to be open before. With good reason. So, people, guys, sensed that they should give me my distance. Perhaps they were afraid I would reject them. I really don't know. Does that seem like I'm anywhere near on the right track?
Sounds right.
Does it bring a sense of reframing your past in a less self-critical way?
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Funny thing about the Ugly Duckling syndrome is you don't have to be an ugly duckling to have it huh (I'm sure there's some psych term for it)
Schools a funny place, like later life but different also. The advantage in school was that you had a cummunity to see how certain people acted with others as well as they acted to you. I would see even then that girls who glanced, looked, approached or flirted with me were attracted to the stereotype they 'saw', not me per se. You could see that some people expressed attraction to you also expressed it to people who who very unlike you also, for example.
Thing is, I had a disdain for small talk then. Giggly childish chatter was how kids experimented with initial conversations. It amazed me how so many people stayed with this mode into 'adulthood'. The subject matter took on adult themes, but the method of 'connecting' remained the same for them.
Anyway, I withdrew from approaching people more out of fear of failure than of lack of self esteem. Yet, it felt more like a self esteem issue to me, because I didn't recognise there wasn't any pass or fail involved in talking to people. (from school stuff, always was top of the class etc)
Unfortunately I learned rather late that initial small talk is needed cos its a safe base to start from, & you can very quickly say something real if you want, If they go with it great, if they don't so what ! (didn't anybody else get sooo bored with going out to pubs & clubs & meeting people & HAVE THE SAME BORING CONVERSATIONS!)
Overly self conscious - yup. Comes from 'doing better than' the older siblings as a kid without even realising I was doing it, & they had 4 years on me.
Ineresting where I led myself with this post, 'performance' focus, from fear-of-failure thinking (or viceversa) leading to thinking about personal low self esteem when it didn't feel like it, (but seeing it in so many people, & every book, article etc telling us we have it, & telling us we have it even if we don't think we have it because we have it ! haha)
We can self talk ourselves into things; we can self talk ourselves out of things; gotta have more other talk too huh :)
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Penny,
Now I KNOW you are my sister...
You know, I have dreams lately that I am alone and it has been years and no man likes or loves or wants me and there is no hope of it ever happening.
I also tried to get boys to like me while young (I wasn't successful until later). I think I scared them all away with my wanting so badly to be wanted. It was embarrassing, really. They found me annoying and gross I am sure. And my motehr also pointed out that she couldn't believe no one wanted to date me or whatever.
And Plucky is right about boys using you. But I wanted to be used. I wanted for ANYONE to want me. PLEASE??????
I understand you 100%.
And now that I am far from my ideal body type (and, let's face it, I wouldn't feel good about myself unless I looked like Scarlett Joahnssen... and probably not even then) I get upset if a guy acts interested in me. I did that even when I was desperate too. Because I figured if a guy was interested in me, he must be a loser.
What a fun life we lead, eh?????
Penny, thenks for getting those points out and bringing even more heavy stuff to light!!! We are working our way throught he hard stuff, babe.
Love, Beth
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Hi PP
Seems like part of the issue is comparing yourself to others?
I realised one day that I wouldn’t buy another woman’s magazine. I was looking at photos of skinny models in bikinis and the thought actually entered my head: “maybe if I lost some weight, I could look like that……..” (which was incredibly wishful and unrealistic thinking, in a big way). I stopped the thought, pretty horrified. Brainwashing in action! I mean I was stunned that simply looking at images could change my thinking so easily and quickly.
Most people, it seems, have a past.
Those that tell you about it have, but I imagine there are many who don’t talk about it….because they haven’t got a ‘past’. Those that do talk about it, do you think they’re happy about it?
"Well, you know how it is. You sleep with a guy you don't really like, and the next day you wake up and say to yourself, 'What was I thinking?'"
I think it’s a wee denial of self-hatred going on? “I sleep with men I don’t even find physically attractive because it confirms to me that I am inherently worthless”. Fine, carry on. Do I need to hear about it?
I don't know if she thought I was mocking her or not.
She didn’t know either! She knows herself so little that she can’t decide it that is mock-worthy or not. Maybe.
"You are normal and have learned things about yourself, others, and relationships in the ways that other normal people do. You opened yourself up. You are a real person. I am not."
This is exactly how I used to think about me not having children. I thought I’m not a normal, real, living woman because I don’t have children. I don’t have a real life. The grass is always greener until you jump the fence I think.
Nobody else ever wanted me
When some men and women want to have sex with you, they don’t see you at all. They want validation of their existence (I screw therefore I am). The partner is not a person, is not wanted for themselves. The partner is inconsequential to the act. It makes you feel less than human. Horrible.
What’s more important is what you want(ed) and why. Anyone can have sex with an object or a person, be it themselves. There’s no relationship in it, it’s a physical act with no intimacy, like eating a hotdog on the run. Do you remember the hotdog’s name?
Why does he want her--she's not slim and attractive?
Because she makes him feel ten feet tall? Because she laughs at his jokes? Because she makes him feel wanted and special? Because she reminds him of his mother? What has slim and attractive got to do with mating?
How did she get so and so to do that for her, it's not like she's really going to sleep with him?
PP in what context do you think this? Do you think women use sex as a bartering tool? (Some women do sure, but not all.)
How come he liked me for awhile then forgot me?
Maybe he didn’t think that you liked him? Men need to feel wanted by women. In sex men want to make a woman satisfied, that’s where they really ‘score’ in crude terms. They need lots of positive feedback. Ewwww this is so basic and I apologise to all men reading. I’m reducing it to a level which is yukky. But I agree with Plucky about scratching the itch too.
Comparing ourselves to others seems to only make us unhappy.
Am I happy as I am? Or do I need to think someone else is ‘better than’ me or ‘worse than me’ to survive?
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Penny,
When I was 17, I was so desperate for a boy to want me, that I hooked up with a guy who date-raped me one night when I was drunk (I was a virgin at the time), would sometimes burn me with cigarettes, claiming it was an accident and a myriad of other abusive behaviors--but I stayed with him, until he got bored with me and moved on to his next victim. Having a past, can be a very painful thing.
People have always considered me attractive, but I was never comfortable in my own skin, so probably didn't believe it. Now that I am 56, I think I am more beautiful than I have ever been, because I accept myself. I am proud of the shape I am in and not afraid to show it. From the age of 32 to 50, I only wore 1-piece bathing suits even though my body would have allowed for a bikini. Part of it was probably wanting to look like a proper mom while my kids were younger, but also because I didn't think I looked good and my xh certainly never gave me any confidence to do so. These days, I only wear 2-piece suits and proud of it. My b/f thinks I look fabulous and tells me all the time. My kids are proud of my looks and the shape I am in for my age.
My daughter is 18, intelligent, very beautiful and has a perfect body. She has never had a boyfriend, and as far as I know, has never even been kissed romantically. She has a number of boy friends, but has never dated any one boy. I actually consider her quite lucky to have gotten through high school without having any romances. Now that she is in college, I'm sure that will change, but I also think she is more ready for it and has the maturity to make good decisions. I hope I have given her the security of love necessary to keep her from feeling the desperation of being loved by a man. Unfortunately, her father has not given her that same love and attention during the most important part of her developing into a woman, so I do worry at some level.
These are good things to be thinking about and discussing "out loud." Learning to love yourself is a big part of erasing the old tapes. Sex and love are so different. Wonderful when combined, but damaging when kept separate. I recently saw a poll of a large number of women of all ages. When asked if they would have to give up sex or love, which would they choose. Young women overwhelming chose love because they can't appreciate how valuable that is to your life in the long run. As the respondents got older it mostly changed to sex. Their feeling was that they could live without sex, but living without love would be devastating. I was married to a man for 22 years who didn't give me either one. I hope I can improve on that in the future.
Hugs,
Brigid
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Brigid
Young women overwhelming chose (to give up ??) love because they can't appreciate how valuable that is to your life in the long run. As the respondents got older it mostly changed to sex. Their feeling was that they could live without sex, but living without love would be devastating.
Incredible! People think they want sex but not love? I'm astonished. This sort of news leaves me open-mouthed. Maybe the respondents were all sex-addicted narcissists? That would make sense, unfortunately. Not everyone is like that!
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So many great messages here. I'm reading and digesting all of them and will respond to each starting tonight and going into tomorrow. This is all helping me to make my new "tape". So many directions to look in and all of it related. I was nervous about this topic but knew I could take the chance of bringing it up here :) .
I'll be back later.
PP
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Portia,
I probably didn't make myself quite clear. The question was posed as "If you HAD TO give up either sex or love, which would you choose?" I don't think most respondents would choose sex without love, but when given an absolute choice, young women still preferred to having sex in their lives as opposed to love. I can understand that to a degree, as while we are young, instant gratification has more appeal than worrying about the long term. As we mature, obviously most of us would still prefer to have sex and love, but when having to give one up, the sex would be given up in lieu of love because, IMO, how love makes us feel on the inside. It still allows two adults to be intimate with each other, without the physical gratification of intercourse.
I hope that makes a little more sense to you now. Sorry for not being more clear.
Brigid
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Hi P, B, and PP...
P, my answer to your shock is that many, many girls are servicing boys orally ROUTINELY in junior high (12-15). Huge numbers of girls, maybe a third or more. This is a new generation that is absolutely glutted from MTV and (here comes the soap) the ever-downgrading images of women in the media...
It really has gone retrograde, the culture, after all the struggle. Porn use is routine, girls go wild at the drop of nothing...
It's not the free "love" of the ol' hippie days. Todays' kids are hardened and "hook up" intentionally for sex that they completely and consciously disassociate from love.
It's a bad new world and I worry a lot...and so, Brigid's info is saddening but no surprise. :(
Really sad.
Hops
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(((((((((Brigid)))))))))) no you were perfectly clear :) No problems with what you said, truly. I guess I've forgotten what it was like to be 16...17...18 when sex is that important in some ways, I guess....but the shock was real. Even I (???) knew what 'love' was, or maybe not, maybe I had a yearning for love and an image of it. To consider giving up love for sex. Oh I don't know. It depends on how the question was asked, who asked it etc. Market research is pretty much skewed to whatever the questioners want to report on. I was in marketing and I loathe market research! Sorry if my reply had you doubting your post Brigid: it was just fine, my reaction was about the information, not about your post.
(((((((Hops))))))). More information, thank you, that has me thinking about this whole issue: sexualisation and marketing to young people. Blah!
(((((((((PP)))))))) You're okay and lovable as you are, you know. Keep posting! Great topic. 8)
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Dear Pennyplant,
Maybe it wasn't really the case that nobody else ever wanted you. Maybe the one you chose was indeed the one for you and all is just exactly as it should be? I would love to be able to say that I was still with the first man I'd ever known.
Love,
Hope
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I knew you had a unique beauty that high school louts wouldn't get, PP. Just knew it, and it's more than your wonderful hair. I think in your maturity, men are seeing YOU now, PP...of course they notice! And of course you were worthy of it back then too.
There have been times in my life when I have looked absolutely awful. And there have been times in my life when I have caught men stopped in their tracks with their mouths hanging open and looking at me. What is it they see, I always wonder. My husband has seen me both ways and every way in between and loved every one of me. And for every look that I have had on the outside, inside I have always been little old me who is often all tied up in knots and with hundreds of thoughts and feelings swirling around in my head and heart.
I still don't understand the idea of physical attractiveness. I know I want to look good. I also want to look like me. I don't want to think I'm ugly just because I look different (Truffle sauce. Is it chocolate? Is it mushrooms? Sounds good either way!) I think I'm getting away from the thinking I'm ugly. Now I think I look okay. My understanding of the male of the species is that there is some sexual aspect to being a redhead. Maybe that has been part of the problem, especially in the younger days. I don't know, though. Not too many men admit something like that to me. A couple have, though :wink: .
I still like flirting, though I do expect to be more restrained in it. Today it made me feel good when one of the guys at work who likes me, paid me that kind of attention. It made up for being rejected by the N-co-worker. This other guy is not N and I don't expect to have it get out of hand like it did with N. I'm a much more subdued flirter these days. It feels more subdued inside of me.
This is kind of meandering. I guess what I'm getting at, Hops, is that attractiveness got me into another situation that may have been more painful than "rejection" was. Afterall, I kind of expected rejection when I was growing up. It wasn't as disappointing as it might have been had I expected a better social life. Now I got a taste of being wanted, then I got kicked to the curb anyway. That was just devastating. And it was very selfish of me. I did all this flirting and trying to have a fling without a lot of consideration to the fact that I am married. There was a split in me. Mentally I got young again for awhile. And it wasn't the answer either.
It is good to know that I am not ugly and never was. But what does that really mean? Aren't we trying to overcome the idea of having to be good, useful, perfect, in order to have value? I don't really know what I think about that yet. I guess if I tell myself, "I am beautiful" I won't mean beautiful like a model but beautiful because I look like my best version of me. And everybody who looks like their best version of themselves is also beautiful.
I don't think I was my best version of myself when I was growing up. And that was the whole problem. And it was caused by how I was raised and what I was taught by people who I wish had known better, but they didn't. They didn't know hardly anything at all.
Well, I'm going to figure it out anyway!
Pennyplant
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Hi PP,
just a quickie here, no, not THAT kind of quickie! Get your mind out of the gutter!....
Let's reframe this.
1. " Nobody wanted to use me". Because let's face it. That's what it frequently is. Scratching the itch.
2. Any 11 year old who has lots of boyfriends - what does that mean? If I had a D and she was 11 and she had 'lots of bf' I would sure make sure what exactly that meant! In the kindergarten sense, or in the Taxi Driver sense?
3. Even Pinnochio learnt to say no when he became real. You must have been real from the getgo.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: This quickie, that quickie, they're all good!
Nobody wanted to use me. But part of me wanted just that! Young me? Stunted teenagerish me? I know someone who always wanted to lead the police on a huge chase through all three local counties and the Indian Reservation. When his son grew up to do just that, he sounded so wistful and admiring. Envious even. Now, personally, I thought it was a stupid idea. And smarter, more experienced people here know that my wished-for fling is a stupid idea. I guess that's what makes life so interesting.
Anyway, when you changed that one word from "wanted" to "use" it startled me a bit. It really is that simple. I just kind of got lost in my long, mixed-up fantasy. In fact, when I ran into the N-co-worker today, and saw for myself that he is pretty well "over me" I remembered your post. As time goes on, well, I can see that I was probably spared getting used big time. It will just take some time to sink in before I can feel a sense of relief about it. I don't feel relieved yet. Probably going to have to feel betrayed and angry first. Yuck.
My mother's boyfriends. Probably in the kindergarten sense. But really major in her mind. Probably what she would consider her major accomplishment in life. Especially compared to, say, being the mother of two daughters who grew up to be contributing members of society and gave her three grandsons.
I must have been real from the getgo. I like that, Plucky. Thank you. That will be part of the new tape.
Well, ladies and gentlemen, I must get to bed. Have an early day tomorrow. But will keep thinking about this thread and should have more thoughts to share sometime on Friday.
Good night all.
Love, Pennyplant
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Sorry Hops...
I think gratuitous sex is gratuitous sex, be in in the sixties or today. I just don't believe the Jim Morrison types were all about "love." They were just as much about "getting some."
Love (platonic type), Beth
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No offense taken, Beth. I just know that for me, those wild few years were in some way a defense of a piece of my soul that had been hurt. I brought presentness, tenderness, to every encounter. And there was joy in it. Not always, but I did not feel bad, shameful, or ... Well, I have long since abandoned the abandon. I've had longer periods of celibacy for the last decades than anything else, and have no further interest in those sorts of encounters. It was a crazy time, the early 70s...maybe it was a reaction to the war.
Not easy to say something contrary, that unfettered sexual freedom was good for me at that time in my life. But it was.
(I certainly don't advise it to young women today. It was particular to the times, my life in the times, etc.)
I just want a nice middle-aged Irishman I can dote on for the rest of his life.
Hops
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Hi PP
I’ll comment if I may
some sexual aspect to being a redhead.
It’s different and difference can be attractive. Biologically, men are built to mate with as many different types as possible. That’s maybe a reason they can like their women to ‘dress up’ in different disguises…so they get the impression they’re getting something new. So I’ve been led to believe.
Unfortunately we’re still primitive animals in some ways: taller, more physically attractive people enjoy more ‘success’ than shorter, unattractive people. It’s simple biology and sometimes we don’t see past that.
I know someone who always wanted to lead the police on a huge chase through all three local counties and the Indian Reservation. When his son grew up to do just that, he sounded so wistful and admiring. Envious even. Now, personally, I thought it was a stupid idea.
Why did you think it was a stupid idea? Is there some part of you, buried deep so that maybe you can’t see it, that thinks it was an excellent idea? Maybe it’s not about sexual flings: maybe it’s about a full life, experiences and adventure. When did you last do something that made you scared thinking about it? Rock-climbing, white-water rafting, hanging on to a galloping horse?
Hops!
just want a nice middle-aged Irishman I can dote on for the rest of his life.
This sounds like a realistic and achievable goal to me. How would you go about making it happen? :D
(i wish I had a goal, let alone a realistic and achievable one :?)
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men notice me now. And I'm not so different from the way I always looked and acted.
I think we give off subtle signals though- if we're really feeling unworthy then other people pick up on if not that exactly the fact we have some unresolved emotion which is holding us back.
I don't think it's a bad thing you haven't had tons of failed relationships though!
Because that's what they would have been, if you weren't ready.
Yes, I believe I did and often still do give off a signal of some sort. It's a mixture of things going on--preoccupation with my thoughts, nervous busy-ness, trying to be good and useful, lack of confidence about what to say, but basically all coming from that lack of worthyness. I can feel that starting to slip away. And people may be noticing that too. Either I'm becoming more comfortable in my skin and that makes it all easier, or my new comfort level is giving off a more welcoming signal.
I have thought a lot about what kind of signal I was giving that allowed the N-co-worker to know he could cross some major boundaries with me and get away with it, even get rewarded for it, and then when he got in over his head (which happened pretty quickly) that it would then be okay to treat me like some kind of pest instead of a person he had approached and wooed for awhile.
At the time that it began, two years ago, my father was dying of lung cancer. I had been spending major amounts of time and energy and worry helping him maintain his "independence" for many, many months before he finally went to the hospital and then died three weeks later. I was feeling incredible amounts of stress, pressure and worry. That can't be a coincidence. I was distracted and needy and already a big flirt. Also, still reeling from the previous emotional affair. I wasn't trying to have anything with this particular person though I had always been attracted to him. But right around that time I did make some personal comments to him, which now I realized he soaked up as new supply. I sure never thought he would actually be interested in me. But it may just have been the perfect recipe for an N. There's more to it but basically I gave off those same signals that I must have given off my entire childhood. It just took a sexual form this time instead of the childhood form of constant teasing and hounding.
Have to cut this short, as work is calling me. All for now.
Pennyplant
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Funny thing about the Ugly Duckling syndrome is you don't have to be an ugly duckling to have it huh (I'm sure there's some psych term for it)
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We can self talk ourselves into things; we can self talk ourselves out of things; gotta have more other talk too huh :)
Oh, I had Ugly Duckling syndrome big time. I looked different from my peers. I stood out physically. Somebody always had something to say about how I looked. So, I suppose I was born self-conscious. When I was one year old, my mother was walking me down the street in my stroller and a newspaper photographer happened by and took my picture and it was printed in the newspaper under the caption "Cute!". I notice redheads myself and I ought to know better. People used to make comments about me from their cars driving by. Some good, some nasty. Grown men would comment on my looks or the way I walked. Way too much of that kind of attention for a little girl, I would say.
School days. I became even more self-conscious. Always someone around to say something critical or mean. The least little thing would be noticed and commented on. I think I must have been just surrounded by little Ns. So, when people here say, you know people aren't really paying as much attention to you as you think..... well, that has not been my experience of life. Not in my home town, school days, or old neighborhood anyway. Just a pit of Narcissism? More and more it sure seems like it to me.
Yeah, I agree whole-heartedly that we can talk ourselves into or out of anything. Those tapes are powerful and new thoughts are potentially powerful as well. Finally learned that lesson here. Have learned it in a way that I can use.
2bb, this is an interesting direction to go in. There are some commonalities in your story with mine. Yet, you don't seem to have suffered from that unworthyness. That is so interesting to me. I must have mistakenly chosen that path. Sometimes I wish I could go back in time and shake little Pennyplant. Wake her up. But she probably would have been very offended and not understood. So, I guess this is how long it had to take.
Okay, supper time.
Be back soon.
PP
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Now I KNOW you are my sister...
You know, I have dreams lately that I am alone and it has been years and no man likes or loves or wants me and there is no hope of it ever happening.
I also tried to get boys to like me while young (I wasn't successful until later). I think I scared them all away with my wanting so badly to be wanted.
And Plucky is right about boys using you. But I wanted to be used. I wanted for ANYONE to want me. PLEASE??????
You know what would have been really cool, Beth? If all the girls who suffered with this while young could have met and been friends with each other, like a "Stand by Me" kind of thing. One of the worst things about being unworthy and unwanted was truly believing that I was the only one in this position. That just rubbed it in even more as I watched girl after girl, classmate after classmate, begin to figure it out and pair off or get a couple of dates once in awhile. Some girls only had to make it known they were interested in someone and he came calling almost immediately. I needed a support group back then! Thinking I was the only one just reinforced my wrong ideas about my unworthiness. But in reality, kids who are bad off also don't know how to reach out and pull in the support. It's a vicious cycle.
I think if I had been used as a young girl, I would have been devastated. Back then I wasn't thinking about sex so much as just having someone like me. My wanting to be used was a recent developement :? . I am a pretty late bloomer in many respects. But I definitely wanted what I wanted in the last few years. I'm only starting to get past it now because there really isn't any other option. This aspect of my healing is in spite of myself. It's really hard to give up this particular desire. I mean, if I'd actually found someone who was somewhat normal and had also just wanted to go for it like I wanted to, then there would have been a fling. By working on giving up on this idea, I'm not really being very noble at this point. More being realistic. The one I decided to do this with is N. It is more fun for him to frustrate me and move on to another female he can fantasize about. Wasn't fun for me, but who cares, right?
All of this is related to things the others have been saying, too. I'll post more tomorrow in response to others. This is definitely starting to come together in some ways. Very, very helpful and thanks for all these ideas. I hope others are touching on things that are meaningful to them as well.
Pennyplant
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I have a friend who has had a truly wretched life. She is compulsivelye clean. When you walk in her house, you remove your shoes and still she practically cleans behind every step. I am her antithesis. I would give ANYTHING to have her compulsion and she would give anything to not have it. Basically, I don't like who I am and she doesn't like who she is.
When I read your post and I think how I wish I had had your problem and you are describing how you wish you had mine and others here. But really I don't think any of us would like each others problems any more than we like our own. Ultimately I think we all are trying and coming to like ourselves. That's the goal it seems to me.
((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((pennyplant)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
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Seems like part of the issue is comparing yourself to others?
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Most people, it seems, have a past.
Those that tell you about it have, but I imagine there are many who don’t talk about it….because they haven’t got a ‘past’. Those that do talk about it, do you think they’re happy about it?
Yes, Portia, I compare myself to others all the time. Doing so has always been as natural to me as breathing. So, it's going to take some hard work to redirect that energy towards, maybe some self-discovery and self-boostering. Comparing myself all the time, well, I don't measure up all the time either. That's no good. Absorbed that idea from my parents, of course.
Some of the people who talk about their "past" with me--they seem proud of it and sorry that it is over. Maybe I just happen to know some really adventurous people. But they truly consider their past a part of who they are and how they became the kind of person they are now. And there doesn't seem to be an air of regret about it. It's more like Hopsy said in another post on this thread. They did something that met a need at the time and some sharing occurred. Those were real relationships that meant something. One person I know, that's how she got her third son. And he is the apple of her eye. He is bright, talented, kind, thoughtful, everything one could hope for in a child. If his mom hadn't led that free life that she led for a few years, he wouldn't exist. I know for a fact, she wouldn't take back one moment of it. Another friend of mine considers every affair, relationship, meeting to be something meaningful and that she learned and grew from. Some of them hurt her feelings a lot, but she still wouldn't take back any of it. And now she has finally met the man who might be the right one for her. Maybe she wouldn't have realized how right he is if not for the past.
I just don't think it is always a bad thing to take that chance. In my case, I got involved with an N, so it was doomed from the first moment. But I sure have got myself on a good path as a result. I expect that in another year or two I will look back on it with some kind of gratitude. Even though it hurt so much and so many times.
I also know women who are unhappy with their past. Some have said wistfully that they admire my life where I have only been with one man. How can I explain to them what I feel the drawbacks to it are? It would just sound like whining and ingratitude. It is true that some people want what I have and I want what they have. Maybe that's just the way it is. I'm just muddling my way through it. For awhile, it just seemed like I could change my life and have something I wanted. Then it turned out I couldn't. Maybe I wanted the wrong thing. But it felt good for awhile to think I could have what I wanted. Never happened before. It felt real good.
Pennyplant
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When I was 17, I was so desperate for a boy to want me, that I hooked up with a guy who date-raped me one night when I was drunk (I was a virgin at the time), would sometimes burn me with cigarettes, claiming it was an accident and a myriad of other abusive behaviors--but I stayed with him, until he got bored with me and moved on to his next victim. Having a past, can be a very painful thing.
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My daughter is 18, intelligent, very beautiful and has a perfect body. She has never had a boyfriend, and as far as I know, has never even been kissed romantically. She has a number of boy friends, but has never dated any one boy. I actually consider her quite lucky to have gotten through high school without having any romances. Now that she is in college, I'm sure that will change, but I also think she is more ready for it and has the maturity to make good decisions. I hope I have given her the security of love necessary to keep her from feeling the desperation of being loved by a man. Unfortunately, her father has not given her that same love and attention during the most important part of her developing into a woman, so I do worry at some level.
Hi Brigid,
I am very sorry that you suffered so much from your relationship with that boyfriend who hurt you in so many ways. Nobody deserves that kind of treatment.
When I talk in general terms about not having a past, I'm not talking about getting into real danger. It's just the feeling unwanted. The two "emotional affairs" I attempted during the last few years were with people I thought I had made a real connection with. It felt very real and intense to me, though I guess I have no idea how it really felt to them. The N-co-worker, well now I know that was never going to happen. Now I'm a little bit more educated about that particular personality type. But I didn't know before. I thought he really liked me. I thought he meant what he said. Now I know that wasn't true. The first guy, well that just took me by surprise. He was someone I met at work also, and he was much younger than me. He probably didn't realize he shouldn't be so open and friendly to older women approaching their sexual peak years! I didn't know this either!!!! Just walked into that one blind. Due entirely, I think, to my lack of experience. Which is what I'm getting at. People need these kinds of experiences in their youth. It is a necessary part of growing up and becoming a real adult. A complex, mature human being. Which I did not do. I am doing that now. In a really awkward, backwards way.
Brigid, you mention that your daughter has never had a boyfriend or really any romance. She must have other things that you gave her or at least allowed to develop in her. Self-confidence, self-esteem, lots of friends, genuine interests that she can follow up on. I had little of that. It just wrecked me that I was so below average in all the common things that most young people could expect out of life. Not having a boyfriend was the thing I honed in on. But maybe if the other areas of life had worked out better, it might not have loomed so large in my view. Your daughter amazes me. She is going at her own pace. I didn't even know I was allowed to go at my own pace. I probably wasn't ready for real romances or relationships. But I didn't know it was okay to be later than other kids. I didn't know I could become ready for things. I had never been allowed to just do something when I wanted or was ready. Your daughter is really fortunate in my opinion. And you gave that to her. I could have used a mom like you :) . That's just great that you did that for her. She got this way even with the father she had. She's going to be more than okay. I know you can't help it if you still worry. But I bet she's going to do just great.
Thanks for your comments. It gives me so much to think about.
Pennyplant
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Maybe it wasn't really the case that nobody else ever wanted you. Maybe the one you chose was indeed the one for you and all is just exactly as it should be? I would love to be able to say that I was still with the first man I'd ever known.
Thanks, Hope. I think it is probably true that I just happened to find the right one right away. That seems to be where everything I do and learn is heading. Right back to where I began.
But if this is exactly right for me, then maybe your path was exactly right for you, even with the pain. I honestly don't think it is an accomplishment to stay with the first person. Well, the staying is something of an accomplishment. Hard work just like anything worth having. But him just happening to be the first. Well, to me that is just chance. If we had broke up at some point then got back together because nobody else ever worked out as well, that would just be part of our history and part of our growth. I have told him if we ever tried something else, then I realized I had made a mistake leaving him, I would beg him to take me back. I know how right he is for me.
Still being with the first and only man I have ever been with is just one way of doing things. It is not something I think I should run around bragging about. I suppose I should probably also stop thinking it means I am flawed. It did leave some gaps in my experience of life, though. I mean I didn't even know that some guys can be real cads! How's that for ignorance? And it was more than exciting to think I might have a real adventure instead of just seeing these things in movies. Got very carried away with my feelings for awhile.
I'm ready to accept the idea that it wasn't that nobody ever wanted me. It has taken a long time to even know to question that assumption I've made my whole life. Lots of progress.
Pennyplant
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It’s different and difference can be attractive. Biologically, men are built to mate with as many different types as possible. That’s maybe a reason they can like their women to ‘dress up’ in different disguises…so they get the impression they’re getting something new. So I’ve been led to believe.
Unfortunately we’re still primitive animals in some ways: taller, more physically attractive people enjoy more ‘success’ than shorter, unattractive people. It’s simple biology and sometimes we don’t see past that.
I know someone who always wanted to lead the police on a huge chase through all three local counties and the Indian Reservation. When his son grew up to do just that, he sounded so wistful and admiring. Envious even. Now, personally, I thought it was a stupid idea.
Why did you think it was a stupid idea? Is there some part of you, buried deep so that maybe you can’t see it, that thinks it was an excellent idea? Maybe it’s not about sexual flings: maybe it’s about a full life, experiences and adventure. When did you last do something that made you scared thinking about it? Rock-climbing, white-water rafting, hanging on to a galloping horse?
Well, I thought different would be exciting too!!! When my husband is in a mood to joke around about my "flings" he says, "You just need some strange, baby!" Of course, he is really relieved that I didn't get any strange. And we don't really joke around about it anymore. Not really all that funny.
Why do I think leading the police on a chase through three counties and an Indian Reservation is stupid? Well, because I know two people who did that and they both got caught and arrested and one went to jail. I watch COPS on TV. You always get caught when the police are chasing you. Sometimes you even crack up your car!! That's not something I think I have to do to know it is stupid. That kind of excitement has never seemed exciting to me.
I think my wanting sexual flings was about doing something that feels really good. I thought it would "complete" me. In each case, both times, I had met someone that I wanted that kind of connection with. I wanted to know each of them in every way. Obviously, I missed something each time. It wasn't possible, neither of them really wanted that with me, blah, blah, blah. Being married is a bigger obstacle to having flings than I thought..... Really naive, I know. Now I know better. Yay.
Oh boy, I keep running out of time to work on this. But it's all helping very much. Thanks for all the good comments.
Pennyplant
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I would give ANYTHING to have her compulsion and she would give anything to not have it. Basically, I don't like who I am and she doesn't like who she is.
But really I don't think any of us would like each others problems any more than we like our own. Ultimately I think we all are trying and coming to like ourselves. That's the goal it seems to me.
Compulsion. When the behavior owns us instead of the other way around. When I have wanted to be someone else, or have someone else's life, it has always been when I was depressed or felt out of control or had no idea how to proceed from where I was at. Now my idea is to start from where I am at the moment and build on that.
During the worst moments of the second emotional affair (with the N) there were times when just seeing him or just thinking about him made me feel this very strange ill sensation. I still don't know exactly what that was--part of my brain still craved what I craved. Two feelings existing simultaneously. Opposite feelings most likely. I thought at the time that I felt that sickening feeling because I was afraid I would not be able to have what I wanted to have. But I don't really know that. Maybe it was a warning feeling. It felt different from missing someone, which is also what I thought that feeling was at the time. I did want to escape from the sensation. It did not feel good and it was unlike any feeling I had ever had before. I did have myself convinced that if it would just work out the way I wanted it to, then I would feel very good. Not with an N, though. I would like to think he has a conscience and ended it for that reason. But probably not. He has moved on to the next supply source. That is what really happened. He has a compulsion too. And he is lost in it.
These compulsions are not the answer. Replacing a "bad" one with a "good" one is not the answer. You're right, GS, it is liking ourselves that is the answer. And we can do that!!!! We are doing that :D .
Love, Pennyplant
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Dear Pennyplant,
Re: These compulsions are not the answer. Replacing a "bad" one with a "good" one is not the answer.
That's a fact. As I become more aware of my tendancy to do just that, I want so much to knock it off!
About this... there were times when just seeing him or just thinking about him made me feel this very strange ill sensation
I remember a feeling like that about being near my ex-husband. It's so difficult to comprehend, but almost like a chocoholic being presented with a gigantic fudge volcano cake, filled with hot fudge, and topped with half a gallon of ice cream....
ugh, I just know this is going to make me ill, but it's absolutely tantalizing!
Another thing about N that I haven't thought of in ages... a hug from N during the period of time when he had me exalted to the throne of glory was completely enveloping, annihilating (thinking of GS here), exhausting, and terrifying. I remember feeling ill and yet helpless to escape, as though I was being swallowed up, consumed alive, disappearing in every way into him. Truly sickening.
Hope
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PP--
I can relate to being vulnerable to emotional affairs when things are intense or there's grief in your life...
Mine happened that way too.
there were times when just seeing him or just thinking about him made me feel this very strange ill sensation. I still don't know exactly what that was--part of my brain still craved what I craved.
I think this really did, for me, fit the addiction model described in Escape from Intimacy by Anne Wilson Schaef. (Though I don't follow her all the way to her conclusion.) Anyway, I felt sick and out of control right in the midst of my obsessive desire.
In a way, I imagine it is a feeling that had my life become immersed with the N permanently, would have sickened me to death.
Hops
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Hey hops,
I don't doubt that you saw the sex as loving and healing... but guys just don't spend their evenings at the fire chatting about what a far-out romantic and moving night they shared with anyone... Wasn't trying to be a pin... I just think that guys and glas see it differently, no matter how much we try.
Love, Beth
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I'm sure you're right about that, Beth...
My memories about it are mine though. Theirs are their business.
It was more about what I thought of myself that I was concerned with.
I was verbally sliced & diced so much as a child that by young adulthood
Other People's descriptions didn't worry me...I had learned my own strength
with words, and that was not fearing them. Poets have a peculiar
kind of nakedness. You can write and read aloud to strangers some pretty
intense and revealing things. If you craft it well, it's received well. And after
a while, you realize you can stand in a floodlight with your flaws in your
palms, and keep breathing.
Now when someone I love says something cruel, ai yi yi. Arrow in the atrium!
You're not a pin (or a pain), Beth. I appreciate your sharing what you think.
(((Beth)))
Hops
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I'm glad I'm not a pin. I'd hate to be one of those. Oh Lord lately I make so many typos...
Yes, hops, perception is the name of the game. I need a perception-booster lately :lol:
Love, Beth
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Wow.
Beth.
An old memory just popped up.
Once after grad school I had moved to an isolated shore. Worked as a bartender, then a carpenter's helper. I helped build a squab barn on an estate. Proud memory...but that's not the one.
(I used to get depressed, think oh, I need to be in a more rural place--since I was homesick for that/this beauty--and then I moved first 20 minutes from everyone I knew, then half an hour, then 45 minutes (no cure)...then all the way across a gol-durn bridge.
Anyhoo, I wasn't recognizing that I was lonely. Since as a new poet back then I had to spend a lot of time alone in deep awareness anyway, I didnt think to ask the question. Then one day a fellow I knew came to see me, and wanted to apologize for some mean things he'd done to me when we were in a shared house once. It was complicated group dynamics, but anyway, he'd sort of demonized me for no reason (and it really had hurt me). I forgave him immediately but what I just remembered was I said to him, you can sleep with me if you want. He said, really? And I said yes, I'm so lonely I'll ___ someone just to get a hug.
Wowsa. And here I am 30 years later writing sermons about loneliness!
Holy moly.
I'm not upset at all about that...I just mean, I'm kind of shocked to realize how consistent that is.
Loneliness is the predominant feeling I remember from my childhood.
I'm not, usually, now, at all. Lots of wonderful people in my life. But when it comes to visit, whoa, are there layers.
So...there's a different kind of memory about one of those encounters. Hmm.
Hops
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Hops, that memory of yours. So honest. With him. It sounds like he responded in a normal way. I was honest with the N and he responded in a weird way, especially over time. He judged me a lot, too. I hated that. Him judging me for something he started and said he wanted to do as well. He was also patronizing at times. Kind of ironic coming from someone who is about 8 years old inside. I guess they can fake anything.
That sickening feeling. It makes me think that there are far more kinds of emotions than I can name. Or else various ways to feel the same ones. I don't know. I do hate that sickening feeling. It rarely crops up now, of course. I truly thought that consumating the affair would fix that feeling. I thought it had something to do with missing him or not getting what I wanted. Probably that is not what it was. And I would have found that out in short order if things had gone the way I wanted them to.
Soon enough, I won't be seeing him hardly at all. The extra work I have been doing, which brings me to his turf a couple times a week, will probably be ending before Christmas. I think I will have all the information I need by then to find my answers. Or enough information anyway, to truly move on. I was hoping for a big aha! or to see him have to suffer some consequences. But I guess you can't have everything you want. Where would you put it :wink: ? (I love that winking guy!)
Pennyplant
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Hi PP
I think my wanting sexual flings was about doing something that feels really good. I thought it would "complete" me. In each case, both times, I had met someone that I wanted that kind of connection with. I wanted to know each of them in every way.
So it’s definitely not just sex! (some would say women can’t do ‘just sex’ but some would beg to differ.) If you’re looking for someone to complete you, you’re looking for mother, usually, or maybe father. Does that idea take the edge off the appetite? Superimpose image of mother over subject of attraction. Gender differences don’t matter: it’s about returning to being a baby and being one with mother. So I've read...And your attraction only applies to some people, you wouldn't have a physical fling with just anyone?
It can work I guess, the 'completing' couple. It can make for a lifelong partnership, if the two people change together.
He judged me a lot, too. I hated that. Him judging me for something he started and said he wanted to do as well. He was also patronizing at times.
Unless you’re ready to unquestioningly adore and worship some people, they don’t want to know. If you present any indication that you are independent and capable of critical thinking about them, they’ll run. Because they too want enmeshment, but in that enmeshment only they survive: they absorb you and you become them. You disappear.
What first attracted you to your H? Does he have similar fantasies/yearnings for affairs? Just wondering!
Hops,
I’m not going to ask but I’m thinking it.
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Hi Portia,
So, it's kind of Freudian, right? No, it is definitely not just sex. My friend who has been with lots of men said I should just go to a bar and pick up someone and get it out of my system that way. But I have absolutely no desire to do that. There are actually very few men I am attracted to enough to sleep with. It has to be everything or nothing. So, of course, it will be nothing.
What first attracted me to my husband? Well, the very first thing will sound so N--but, he seemed so happy to meet me. He couldn't stop smiling. I had never run into that before. It was very noticeable. And felt very warm. He just glowed with happiness at meeting me. We ate at a fast food restaurant and I noticed how carefully and neatly he ate his food. I would think that is an odd thing to notice but I have heard some mothers tell their daughters to pay attention to how clean a guy's hands and fingernails are. So, maybe being neat and polite with a meal means something beyond the surface. He also had a sense of humor and seemed more practical than me. We were driving around and the car window was open and blowing my hair around and I said, "Does anybody mind if I close the window?" He immediately said, "What do you want to do?" It had never occurred to me that I could close the window just because it was bothering me. Seventeen and I had just met my first breath of fresh air.
Sometimes I wonder how it would have been for us if I hadn't gotten pregnant right after high school graduation. We are both very late bloomers. Early parenthood was a challenge that set us back in so many ways and for so very many years. I do recognize now how much worse it could have been if he had been N or any other personality disorder. But it was still a challenge that almost broke us.
This parent angle is something I'll have to think about. I think there is something to it. The N co-worker is always looking for his parents, too, especially his mother. The other emotional affair, that guy did not get along with his father at all and I think he missed him mother a great deal as he moved away from home very young, right out of high school. My parents were never there for me. Not in any consistant way. So, it makes a great deal of sense now that you mention it.
The N-co-worker said at the very beginning of this that he could handle anything except someone saying mean things about his dead parents. That comment came from out of nowhere but it makes a lot of sense now.
Thanks, Portia. I'm getting there.
Pennyplant
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Hi PP, there's no defined route and there's no defined 'there' to get to really i think. We're all different and very much the same in bedrock ways. :)
The N co-worker is always looking for his parents, too, especially his mother.
Big red flag! Alert! This man is a child, a mere boy and once he has a woman, he'll want to turn her into mother and once he has, he won't have sex with her, he'll look for an affair. Well, the one I knew did. :? being a mommy to an adult male is no fun. :x So I stopped doing it :D
Does anything here resonate with your thoughts or feelings?
As unpleasant as it may be to admit it, adult sexuality is largely based on infantile needs to be received, accepted, and satisfied. When a person feels intensely received, accepted, and satisfied, then he or she is “in love.” But sooner or later that intensity will be broken. The break doesn’t even have to be the result of malicious neglect; it can simply be the result of a need to attend to other obligations in the world, and, in the person feeling neglected, intense jealousy can flare up. From http://www.guidetopsychology.com/sex_love.htm
People who have not been given "voice" in childhood have the lifelong task of repairing the "self." This is an endless construction project with major cost overruns (much like the "Big Dig" in Boston). Much of this repair work involves getting people to "hear" and experience them, for only then do they have value, "place," and a sense of importance. However, not just any audience will do. The observer and critic must be important and powerful, or else they will hold no sway in the world. Who are the most important and powerful people to a child? Parents. Who must a person pick as audience to help rebuild the self? People as powerful as parents. Who, typically, is more than willing to play the role of power broker in a relationship, doling out "voice" only insofar as it suits him/her? A narcissist, "voice hog," or otherwise oblivious and neglectful person.
And so it goes. The person goes in the relationship with the hope or dream of establishing their place with a narcissistic partner, only to find themselves emotionally battered once again. These are not "oedipal" choices--people are not choosing their father or mother. They are picking people they perceive powerful enough to validate their existence.
From http://www.voicelessness.com/repetition.html
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People who have not been given "voice" in childhood have the lifelong task of repairing the "self." This is an endless construction project with major cost overruns (much like the "Big Dig" in Boston). Much of this repair work involves getting people to "hear" and experience them, for only then do they have value, "place," and a sense of importance.
Much of your post resonates with me, Portia. This idea of getting people to hear and experience me really resonates.
That must have been going on when I met my husband. Didn't even know I was looking for that. But he met that need easily. Still does for the most part. We are now working on giving both of us voice.
When I met the first emotional affair person, the thing that bowled me over was he would ask me something every day and listen to the answer and then argue with me if he didn't agree. That was huge for me. Nobody had ever taken that kind of interest before. Really listened to what I said, so much so, that it made him think of responses. He actually made a point of getting to know me. And I was just fascinated with him. I think I got drunk with that whole thing. I missed him so much when he was gone. It was incredibly painful for quite awhile. Now I can see it was even bigger than I realized. Somehow I had let him right into my heart without realizing it. Right where all the pain of my whole life was.
This is such hard work. It will be worth it, though.
PP
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THE REAL "GOLD "IT IS FOUND WITHIN THE UNITY OF ONE'S MALE AND FEMALE ASPECTS OF SELF.
MOON
Moon, I'm still figuring out the various aspects of myself. Still identifying what they even are. Unity is a ways off, I suspect. As I find parts of myself, I am working on accepting them as okay. It's all still so new with me.
PP
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If all the girls who suffered with this while young could have met and been friends with each other, like a "Stand by Me" kind of thing. One of the worst things about being unworthy and unwanted was truly believing that I was the only one in this position.
PP, this is sooooooo true.
Wouldn't it be amazing if in schools there could be a whole movement of STAND BY ME clubs, where any kid at all could go unannounced to a regular club meeting? Schools could organize these as regular clubs, just like the French Club, Music Club, Drama Club. And the underlying philosophy could be: these clubs are for anyone who is being bullied. We'll help. (And the school psychologist could facilitate a lot of group circle discussions that could give them some tools for self esteem, and the very fact of the club would tell them they're not alone.)
Ever the dreamer but I feel like writing a letter,
Hops
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This is such hard work. It will be worth it, though.
((((((((((((((((((((((((((PP)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
I hope you're really respecting yourself for what you're doing!!!
love,
Hops
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You know what's funny... as an adult, I think I could enjoy sex just for sport. As a young person, it was so wrapped up in mystique and taboo and seemingly what was expected of me (since I was always accused of it). And it made me feel powerful in some way, because I could give it to a guy and he (mostly) would come panting back for more...
Thanks for all the deep revelations, all. Hops, I totally understand and empathize with your story.
Penny, I know what you mean about someone being attracted/interested in you being a way to fall...
Love, beth
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Thank you, ((((Hopsy))))).
I think it would take a very gifted facilitator to sponsor a "Stand By Me" club in school. When I was still in high school, they started a peer mentor or peer mediation group, I can't remember now which one. But it was run by hand-selected popular girls. It was intended to "help" kids who were in need of help with getting along or with their lives. I never in a million years would have gone to such a club meeting with those kids in charge. There certainly was no intention of supporting kids in being okay as who they were. I believe they thought the popular girls would "raise up" the other kids. There was also a youth center in town. But the kids who attended that were kids who had bullied me. Too bad I wasn't interested in church. Might have gotten some love and support there.
I think nowadays such a club would be more workable. It seems like there are more ways for kids to "be" now. There were about three ways for kids to be in my school. Popular, jock, and all the rest which included, smart kids, band kids, partiers and most of the rest. At my kids' school it seemed more fluid with more choices of how to be.
I'm working on that self-respect. There is just so much to learn and absorb. I can see how my "Big Dig" really might just take an entire lifetime. It is somewhat satisfying already, though.
Well, I have a very early day tomorrow, so it is time to hit the hay.
Thanks all!
Love, Pennyplant
P.S. Beth, just read this--sex as sport. I think I know a couple of women who have done just that! I'm pretty sure I couldn't handle it. I wanted the other stuff along with the sex. I wanted to be sure he wanted me. So, there had to be the attention and the words and all that. Boy, I sure hope I now know how to pick out a N ahead of time. Better not to even get involved with them in any way, shape or form. This was a crucial learning step for me. But life is too short to get stalled on that step. No more Ns for me!
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And now you know the warning signs and will take time to know the person fully before jumping into anything!!!! Live and learn.... Better than those who live and never learn, you know??????
Love, Beth
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Yes, indeedy.
And now that I haven't jumped in the sack with anyone for ages, I got no boyfriend at all. :(
Than again, I've been so preoccupied with survival that I'm only fleetingly sad about it. :)
Happier I get about my life in general, more likely I'll attract a healthy loving man, huh.
((((Beth)))
Hops the Reformed Hussy
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:P :lol: :P :D :) :shock: :lol: :P
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PP--
I think Cary's column answer today is dumb but the letters (scroll to end of column) about shame are excellent today, might interest you and several other folks:
http://letters.salon.com/mwt/col/tenn/2006/09/26/embarrassment/view/index2.html?show=ec
Hops
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Men always want to be a woman's first love - women like to be a man's last romance.
Woman begins by resisting a man's advances and ends by blocking his retreat.
Bigamy is having one wife too many. Monogamy is the same.
Or husband... (!)
The only way to get rid of temptation is to yield to it.
Some Oscar Wilde quotes... just because I like 'em. Sort of go with the topic. Just for fun!!!!
Love, Beth
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BETH ,
There are some more Oscar quotes for you on the living thread.
Love always moon
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This if my first time reading this post and wanted to interject some things, if that's o.k.
And I have never successfully cheated either, even though I tried to twice. Promiscuity gone terribly wrong. The story of my life.
Sorry, have to laugh here. Again, PP, you are living my life. I mean, I see other people cheating with no problem (well, yeah there are problems but they manage to have affairs) I couldn't even do that successfully :roll:
When I read the story, my first thought is, "At least somebody wanted you." My second thought is, "You are normal and have learned things about yourself, others, and relationships in the ways that other normal people do. You opened yourself up. You are a real person. I am not."
Been there, oh, live there often. I wonder where my "normal" went.
A few years ago, a co-worker who was attracted to me, said,"Come on, Pennyplant, you must have a couple of skeletons in your closet, before your husband took you out of circulation. Come on!" I hated to disappoint him. So I said, "Well, maybe a couple, but I guess I'll leave them in the closet for you to imagine." But in reality, I just had a couple of not so interesting brushes with being human when I was 17 and that was about it.
Not sure I've even lived. It wasn't something I was allowed or supposed to do. I was supposed to do the housework, be home early, fun was frowned upon in my FOO
I guess it is my mother who put the tape in there. "I had lots of boyfriends when I was your age (11), I wonder what is wrong with you."
My mom said similar things and always let it be known, without so much saying it, that she wished I were popular. Gee, how does Cinderella become popular?? I didn't even escape for the one ball in order to lose my glass slipper. Course, my mom had a wild past and she was keeping tight reigns on me unless I should follow in her footsteps. Whenever anything happened, my fault or not, my mom would say, "What did you do? What have you done wrong?" The underlying message was always "WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOU?"
Well, I wonder too. It is not normal to be so off-putting that not even some clueless guy throws himself at you.
Yep, know what you mean. But I was off-putting in retrospect. I think I had a permanent scowl on my face and didn't know it. I think I gave off negative vibes and had no clue.
I do think that a major way of valuing women is by judging how attractive they are to men. It is only recently that I have learned men are attracted to me. The previous 40 years were something of a drought.
Me too, me too. Now I have guys notice me, but then again now I dress more feminine,(my mom told me when I growing up that I was supposed to be a boy and my dad didn't value feminine stuff, so I was too tomboyish) take care of myself, smile, make eye-contact and am much happier. So there it is, in a nutshell. Pisses me off though that I spent 42 years thinking I was a total reject, ugly and unloveable.
It comes back to the "Nobody else ever wanted me" tape. I told myself that. Well, mom did too. But that doesn't count. I have told myself that hundreds and hundreds of times. I compare myself, too:
Why does he want her--she's not slim and attractive?
How did she get so and so to do that for her, it's not like she's really going to sleep with him?
How come he liked me for awhile then forgot me?
Same here. And I still wonder about my EA guy (emotional affair) and what that was all about. Does he ever think of me? I pass him sometimes around town, does he still care for me? And why should it matter? Why do I think about it??
When am I going to graduate high school in my heart? When will I be a real person? Maybe when I get that tape out of my head.
You and I never got to live high school, so we're in a time warp. I working through it, but it's true that emotional stages in life just can't be jumped over really. They're gonna surface sooner or later.
I mean, men notice me now.
Doesn't that make you feel good?? :)
I think I was afraid to be open before. With good reason. So, people, guys, sensed that they should give me my distance.
Yep, when we come across as being closed up, people look the other way. Glad you're able to open up now. :D
Pennyplant
Afterall, I kind of expected rejection when I was growing up. It wasn't as disappointing as it might have been had I expected a better social life. Now I got a taste of being wanted, then I got kicked to the curb anyway. That was just devastating. And it was very selfish of me. I did all this flirting and trying to have a fling without a lot of consideration to the fact that I am married. There was a split in me. Mentally I got young again for awhile. And it wasn't the answer either.
Yep, once we get to that point of thinking "Hey, maybe this is possible, maybe this will work, I think his feelings are what they appear" and we get our hopes up and then it's all dashed........that's a butt kicker. I guess I was going through my mid life crisis (lots of stuff going on at the time) and this EA made me feel pretty and attractive and smart and I was smitten and he appeared to be smitten and it was like a comedy of errors, or rather a tragedy. He said one thing, I thought me meant another (until I later figured it out). Then he'd say something else and then backtrack. He certainly wasn't reading my signs clearly and I started to become way too obvious and needy. I thought I could handle the whole situation, but instead it only added to my problems. Looking back, I know he was hurt too. He wasn't real sure of himself and I think he kept thinking there was no way I'd be interested in him and I think that one time his rejection of me was out of fear,,,,fear that he might not be the lover that I expected. I guess some guys are insecure about these things and I think he was one. And I kept thinking I was too fat and blah, blah, blah........ I can't tell you how many times I've thought of stopping by his work to see him, but then I think, "No, I'll wait until I lose 5 more pounds" when in reality I'm not fat, just healthy :D And when he looked at me, he looked into my soul. Ever had that experience? It's not something you can forget. Trust me, I've tried.
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You ain't mayonnaise, PP. You are truffle sauce.
love,
Hops
:) :) :) :) :) :) :)
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And Plucky is right about boys using you. But I wanted to be used. I wanted for ANYONE to want me. PLEASE??????
I understand you 100%.
And now that I am far from my ideal body type (and, let's face it, I wouldn't feel good about myself unless I looked like Scarlett Joahnssen...
Can I chime in here, too. Yep, I would have been glad to be someone's doormat, anything just to be wanted. Isn't that sad. Now I see teenage girls giving themselves away and I know why they do it. Just to feel wanted for a little while. Guess it's good I wasn't deemed valuable merchandise in high school or I would have had a bad reputation. As it is, I was just known for being a nerd, or worse a weirdo.
I'm very self-conscious about my appearance too. I don't like to go to the grocery store, church, anywhere if I feel too fat or am having a bad hair day :( It's ridculous really.
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When some men and women want to have sex with you, they don’t see you at all. They want validation of their existence (I screw therefore I am). The partner is not a person, is not wanted for themselves. The partner is inconsequential to the act. It makes you feel less than human. Horrible.
Good insight. Really seems to sum up some attitudes in the world.
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I don't like to go to the grocery store, church, anywhere if I feel too fat or am having a bad hair day
oh my goodness, I'd never go out! ( soon lose weight then I suppose...)
I just hit a self-sabotage place with my weight loss, feeling really good but I'm getting too much attention and it rattles me.
Trying to work on that, not quite sure how...
Re the casual sex, I think I understand me better now- I am programmed to attach and have someone to take care of me and babies. Once I release all those hormones etc it's not going to feel good when I try to go against that.
I think when there's a strong sexual attraction it's very tempting to disregard that good sense though. 'What's the harm in it...'
But I don't want sex with a man who doesn't want to know me better first even if it's not going to be a huge relationship.
If someone can't be bothered to find out more about me why would they be interested in good sex or safe sex or kind gentle sex or imaginative sex? I could be anyone as Portia points out and that's probably how they'd be treating me- disrespectfully- partially because they also don't like the idea of being with someone who would be with a stranger!
One thing I have noticed it doesn't matter how much you like a potential partner- if they are having other relations it doesn't half make me feel compared/ inadequate/ used to be next in line.
Anyway it's been so long I think I'm due some kind of award from the Queen, honorary virgin status or something :)
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My new antidepressant caused my libido to disappear in 24 hours.
Poof.
However, it cut my chronic intense back pain in half.
The joy of the latter is actually enough to make the former pointless.
Hops
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Hi Adrift,
And when he looked at me, he looked into my soul. Ever had that experience? It's not something you can forget. Trust me, I've tried.
Yes, I had that experience with the first EA. I haven't forgotten it, but I've given up on it. A lot has happened to me since then (it's been three or four years, during which my father died and I had the second EA with N-co-worker). My heart has really been through the ringer these last few years.
Recently I sort of got in the middle of someone else's similar situation at work and it was kind of enlightening. The details of the story are kind of complicated but it has to do with my supervisor and one of my co-workers who had got kind of "clingy" with her over the years. The supervisor has major boundary issues (in fact, she was involved in a strange way with my second EA I had with the N-co-worker) and gave mixed signals to the "clingy" one. The "clingy" one wrote her several letters asking for the "truth" and wondering why the supervisor didn't want to be as close of friends. It looks like now there will be no level of friendship at all anymore. I was very disappointed in the way the supervisor handled it. She basically turned it around and blamed the whole messy thing on the clingy one. Gave the letter back and accused her of "testing" her friendship. To me that was unfair, because the supervisor knew for a long time there was a problem but she continued to give mixed signals and try to seem like the kind of friend the other one wanted. To me it seemed kind of leading.
And I didn't even realize until too late, that I allowed boundaries to be violated too. While the supervisor shouldn't have shown me that letter or even brought it up with me, I shouldn't have read it or appeared to have taken a side. Especially since I know how it is to be on the receiving end of mixed signals. I know how that feels to be led on.
The "clingy" one has a very poor relationship with her mother plus a lot of other stuff going on. I think the "seeking mother" issue has been brought up on this thread. I can see where that seems to be an issue often in these kinds of unbalanced relationships. The supervisor also had a poor relationship with her (murdered) mother. Her response has been to become a mother-figure to people. In a not very healthy way, imo.
Hope this hasn't become too much of a tangent. One thing sort of leads to another. When I witnessed this "breakup" this week it really spoke to my own issue of wanting to be wanted and instead usually feeling rejected in my own life. I have never really seen the other side of it, the point of view of the person who does the leading on, the person who allows you to think you might have something with them, when they never really had the desire or courage to go there to begin with. Nor the courage to nip it in the bud. I guess it's tricky on both sides of it. But I still felt that it was unfair of the supervisor to put all the blame on the clingy one. She had knowlege of the problem many, many months ago but continued to lead her on anyway. I wondered about it myself but just hoped the clingy one had let it go. She seemed okay all this time, but apparently was not.
A lot of people have these same holes to try and fill in.
PP
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Hi Adrift,
I love the way you sometimes send a line back to me all aglow. :) Thanks!
Hi PP,
It is so wonderful that you have been able to suss out so much of the dynamic of what's going on. Your compassion for the "needy" one touches me. The ambivalent boss had a murdered mother, how awful. I would bet that would make any "positive" attention hard to let go of. I agree, though, she was unfair.
So few people like to say, I made a mistake. I was wrong. I was unfair. It's as though acknowledging a mistake doubles its impact, when in fact it should halve it. I guess, like forgiveness, sometimes apologies have to be for the apologizer as much as the apologizee. I think we need more of them.
Hops
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Pennyplant
And I didn't even realize until too late, that I allowed boundaries to be violated too. While the supervisor shouldn't have shown me that letter or even brought it up with me, I shouldn't have read it or appeared to have taken a side.
I encourage you to think through how you wish you had handled this ideally. And then imagine yourself doing just that. I try to do this when I am not pleased with the way I handled an experience. There are two positive things that come out of this exercise for me. The first one is that as soon as I revise the experience I let go of the regret I feel over the incident and the second advantage is that the prefered way is available to me in the future when I am faced with a similar situation. The imaging exercise is very powerful for me.
Sorry you had that experience at work. I know it can make for a stressful place to function in. Wishing you protection and love for these next few weeks at work - your friend - Gaining Strength
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There was a warning posted because this was an old thread. I think it is incredibly relevant to women's experience.
So many women feel like ugly ducklings. There is something wrong with this.
I have to go now but i have lots to say later.
Sea storm